Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Prime Caedus. All-out fights, to the death, on neutral ground.

1. Chained Vaylin
2. Unchained Vaylin

Who wins each round and why?

1. Caedus solidly.
2. Not sure where to rank Unchained Vaylin tbh.

Vaylin has nothing that places her even Vader level, not seeing why she'd be Caedus level.

Caedus.

Caedus.

Caedus in one, not sure about the other

Caedus would wreck her in Round 1.

Caedus in round 1, Vaylin in round 2.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Caedus in round 1, Waywin in round 2.

My bad

I still don't get all the Vaylin hype. All we know is that Valkorion finds her somewhat frightening, she can perform solid TK feats from vast distances, and she can choke a group of unsuspecting force users. Granted, those things are impressive, but don't really strike me as things outside of Caedus's ability to deal with. Honestly, she'd have to be even more powerful than Luke for him to lose to such a comparatively inept warrior.

1. Caedus, rather easily,
2. Caedus, high difficulty.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I still don't get all the Vaylin hype. All we know is that Valkorion finds her somewhat frightening, she can perform solid TK feats from vast distances, and she can choke a group of unsuspecting force users. Granted, those things are impressive, but don't really strike me as things outside of Caedus's ability to deal with. Honestly, she'd have to be even more powerful than Luke for him to lose to such a comparatively inept warrior.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I still don't get all the Vaylin hype. All we know is that Valkorion finds her somewhat frightening, she can perform solid TK feats from vast distances, and she can choke a group of unsuspecting force users.

Based on this, I can definitely tell you don't get it.

The biggest thing she has going for her would be how she's something to Valk and how she's more impressive than Revan

Well, her resistance of BRAIN was immensely impressive, given the run-off bolts from one of the streams of lightning were instantaneously disintegrating people. After being unchained, she then completely annihilates BRAIN. With a thought. From orbit. Her power while being assaulted by BRAIN was causing shockwaves across the entire prison, overwhelming the Outlander, (and even Spirit!Valkorion, thouh he was weakened on Nathema,) driving creatures and their keepers insane, etc.

There's also her tearing apart ships for the keks pre-KOTET Chapter 1, her various TK feats throughout KOTFE, Chained Vaylin defeating the Outlander in KOTET Chapter 3, etc. NewGuy also mentioned that Vaylin was an inept warrior, but from what I saw, she was pretty much matching Arcann in sabers in KOTET Chapter 6, (i.e. she was still Chained).

If you scale from earlier iterations of the protags and Arcann, she's absurdly kek'ing powerful.

Caedus and solidly.

Jacen crushes her.

Yeah she's obviously really powerful, but it's not like her raw power shits on Jacen's or anything. And Caedus is obviously the better combatant. He takes this.

Given Caedus is Vader +, and Vader far from his prime was above someone who could disintergrate half of a 300 m ship, I'm not seeing why Vaylin's raw power would be on par with Caedus's.

Not to mention that Caedus is a descendant from the force and has had longer to grow than Vaylin has.

There's also Caedus's greater mastery which allowed him to master a variety of unique abilities while Vaylin mastered TK and Lighting.

What's the argument for Vaylin here again?

1. Vaylin with difficulty (or) 50/50
2. Vaylin shits on Darth Caedus

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah she's obviously really powerful, but it's not like her raw power shits on Jacen's or anything. And Caedus is obviously the better combatant. He takes this.
Darth Caedus is not necessarily the better combatant because Vaylin chained] stalemated Arcann in a fight.

Conversely, Vaylin unchained] literally floored both Arcann and Senya with one of her signature powers. Her raw power >> Darth Caedus.

Vaylin is a woman, so she wins.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Caedus is not necessarily the better combatant because Vaylin chained] stalemated Arcann in a fight.

You understand that most of the reason Arcann is seen as an impressive combatant is because of his power in the Force and that it wouldn't be impressive for Vaylin, who is more powerful, to stalemate him unless we had a baseline for Arcann's own skill level ( which we don't ). There's also the fact that she only managed to stalemate Senya in their fight who we know is vastly inferior to Caedus as a combatant.

Then we have Caedus who is largely inferior to Luke Skywalker as a Force user managing to hold his own against him in a duel.

Vaylin isn't even close to being Senya's equal as a swordsman, lol.

Patently false if you watch past pre-Chapter 1 of KOTET.

Caedus,
That vaylin wank though, shes good but not that skilled.

You cannot make this shit up.

LOL

Those are some seriously standard, shitty old quotes that about 95% of the mythos has. Christ.

Are you... Are you trolling me Legend?

Vaylin ragdolls him

Originally posted by Big Gerald
Vaylin is a woman, so she wins.
Pathetic

Originally posted by Trocity
LOL

Those are some seriously standard, shitty old quotes that about 95% of the mythos has. Christ.
Provide evidence.

Unless you think the Outlander is a god, Caedus takes this.

Unchained>Revan>>Foundry!Revan>Pre-Mask-Revan>Redeemed Revan>SF!Malak >>>Prime!Muur>Vector!Vader

Yeah, I'm not seeing where exactly Caedus trumps that, even if you argue that he scales above ROTJ!Vader.

Foundry Revan lost to mid game protags. No way is he above SF Malak level.

Meh, that's a rather moot point. Revan defecates on his massively hindered KOTOR version who, evidence indicates, was more powerful than SF!Malak.

Vaylin might ragdoll

Originally posted by AncientPower
Unchained>Revan>>Foundry!Revan>Pre-Mask-Revan>Redeemed Revan>SF!Malak >>>Prime!Muur>Vector!Vader

Based on a ton of combat showings and not just you pulling an opinion out of your ass, I'm sure.

Unchained Vaylin is continuously portrayed by Valkorion and SWTOR sources as a greater threat than Revan ever was.

Revan grew far more powerful than his KOTOR iteration ever was, and he is confirmed to have won against Malak due to greater Force prowess despite the massive hindrances of the Star Forge.

Malak uses the SF to grow ever more powerful, consistently, which is a literal sun compared to a glorified holodisk player (the Star Map) which Ajunta Pall specifically confirms was the source of the DJE's own power growth. That includes Karness Muur.

Karness Muur is clearly depicted as being superior to Vader in Vector, and even better, is confirmed to be more powerful than Darth Krayt.

All of which is a particularly bad sign for Caedus.

Now this scaling is just as valid as using Kyp to prop up Caedus.

In an actual feats comparison, Unchained Vaylin is clearly more powerful there too.

When?
When is this said?
Quantify any of this.
It's also not the original Muur, but let's ignore this help our arguments.
Not really.
So not at all, really.

Vaylin got shit on with an army at her back. Feats are not on her side.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Unless you think the Outlander is a god, Caedus takes this.
And why is that?

Valkorion wanted to transform the Outlander into his main Voice. Towards this end, Valkorion significantly enhanced the powers of the latter. With originally developed powers and experience in the battlefield, the Outlander wasn't strong enough to contend with Arcann, let alone Vaylin.

Unless you think that Darth Caedus is good enough for Valkorion when even the likes of Revan weren't....

Valkorion tried 300 years to get Revan and failed, rofl, even with the aid of other uber Sith telepaths.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion tried 300 years to get Revan and failed, rofl, even with the aid of other uber Sith telepaths.
Valkorion did not attempt to hollow Revan out and utilize him as his Voice. Conversely, Revan did not manage to resist on his own; he drew strength from Meetra Surik's presence nearby.

And Valkorion did manage to extract as much information from Revan as he deemed necessary, though it took time.

And all that pressure fractured the mind of Revan, making his split easier later.

Exactly. Valkorion failed to even remake Revan as his mindless servant like he briefly did against Darth Revan, which we know as per the Foundry and SoR was his primary intention. If Valkorion can't even do that, how the hell is he making Revan his Voice?

Revan resisted on his own merit. Revan drew strength from Meetra to counter Valkorion's Force drain. And, again, Valkorion had the Dread Masters in deep meditation on Dromund Kaas for extended periods of time also working.

What? Even after three-hundred years Valkorion was unable to pry from Revan everything. For example, he failed to discover the location of the Foundry and so let Revan free and decided to find it that way, even despite it being a major point of interest for Valkorion.

On the opposite side, Revan was able to pry centuries of knowledge from Valkorion, postpone the conflict for three-centuries, and force Valkorion into signing the Treaty of Coruscant.

No. Because Valkorion and the Dread Masters failed to actually turn Revan into their slave, they resorted to attempting to split Revan in two - that's stated in SoR. Even then, they weren't fully successful until Revan was killed on the Foundry.

AOTC Kenobi successfully resisted Dooku's telepathy while getting shocked.

While the circumstances were less extreme, the point still stands:

There's no favorable comparison to be drawn for Revan here.

... what?

@ Leg: unnecessarily long post. I'll respond tonight - if I forget send me a PM reminder.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
... what?

@ Leg: unnecessarily long post. I'll respond tonight - if I forget send me a PM reminder.
A vastly inferior force user, with sufficient will power, can resist a vastly superior force user mentally. What you've posted for Revan doesn't prove relativity to Vitiate.

How ****ing retarded are you? I never once mentioned relativity to Vitiate, ffs.

Revan telepathically influenced Vitiate though, which does open possibilities, but that's completely separate from everything.

Where did he said that Revan is close to Vity?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How ****ing retarded are you? I never once mentioned relativity to Vitiate, ffs.

Revan telepathically influenced Vitiate though, which does open possibilities, but that's completely separate from everything.
You brought up Revan's telepathic resistance in response to this...


Also, assuming Legend isn't bsing with the quote he posted, Vitiate wasn't actually actively resisting Revan when Revan influenced him.

I brought it up to mention that "even the likes of Revan" was good enough for Valkorion, lmfao.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I brought it up to mention that "even the likes of Revan" was good enough for Valkorion, lmfao.
But Legends initial comment didn't say anything regarding telepathy?

Revan not being good enough to be the Voice when a random Voss Mystic and Zakuul Warrior were is pretty retarded.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Revan not being good enough to be the Voice when a random Voss Mystic and Zakuul Warrior were is pretty retarded.
Yea, true.

@SWL: What are you even talking about, dude?

Yes, of course Valkorion is probing Revan. I don't know why you wasted time highlighting quotes for that. However, that doesn't preclude the idea that Valkorion foremost wanted Revan to become his personal servant again, like Darth Revan temporarily was. When I used the term "mindless," that was in respect that Revan has no independent mind, not that Valkorion was attempting to outright destroy his mind. Valkorion's goal to hold absolute authority over Revan's mind, which allows him to pry for knowledge but, more importantly, use him as a tool against the Jedi.

Moving to the next argument, this "drain" nonsense has been debunked so many times over. Valkorion and Revan are locked in a mental war, right? Valkorion unfairly tipped the cards in his favor by also draining Revan's power away from him, meaning that, inevitably, Revan will have no strength left to continue fighting. In return, Revan drains Meetra Surik to counter-act. The net result is Revan and Valkorion battling on an equal-playing field (i.e. the original playing field before the drain was introduced) - that is, until Valkorion also brought in the Dread Masters, in which the end result is Revan fighting a unfavorable fight but still getting more out of it.

This leads me to my next point: just as Valkorion was able to pry information from Revan, Revan was able to retrieve "centuries of knowledge" from Valkorion. This is distinctively different than Revan planting seeds in Valkorion - this is an act of Revan outright ripping information from Valkorion. As a result, Valkorion will be resisting - we know this because the converse is stated: Revan actively resisted Valkorion's attempts to do likewise. Point being, despite Valkorion's efforts, Revan was able to successfully get a wealth of information from him.

Then we have the Treaty of Coruscant, which is different from the seeds likewise because it's a sudden action as a response to an abrupt event. In other words, Revan would, logically, have had to outright "manipulate" Valkorion into wanting to initiate the treaty, even though, ultimately, it makes frankly no sense for him to want to propose something like that.



False. We have explicit confirmation from Revan saying he did.



Misleading - addressed.



Yeah, after three-hundred years, even despite Valkorion also needing the Dread Masters. That's irrelevant.



Valkorion never "saw the need" because he was unable to perform far simpler mental objectives over Revan.

Also, for the love of Christ, don't respond to each of my individual sentences. I have no interest in a protracted debate and, if your response is too long, I just won't respond.

NGL. For all the sh!t he gets as a combatant, Revan's willpower is insane

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
NGL. For all the sh!t he gets as a combatant, Revan's willpower is insane
Besides a select few, no on gives him shit, lmfao.

Only kbro does. But that only validates Revan's greatness.

Also, Ant, Boyd says that Valk also signed the treaty due to the birth of his children. So that can still be subtle manipulation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Besides a select few, no on gives him shit, lmfao.

Uh...sure man, whatever floats your boat.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Only kbro does. But that only validates Revan's greatness.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, Ant, Boyd says that Valk also signed the treaty due to the birth of his children.
Way to jinx Revan bro.

The hell?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The hell?
You agreed with Ant that nobody gives Revan sh!t and then proceeded to give him sh!t.

As a combatant? No I didn't. L.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, Ant, Boyd says that Valk also signed the treaty due to the birth of his children. So that can still be subtle manipulation.
Nah they can be directly reconciled with Revan's feat unmitigated.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
As a combatant? No I didn't. L.
Kbro right now

Originally posted by slayne
Kbro right now

https://i.giphy.com/media/ugZIZgMzzrLdC/giphy.webp

No offense to him, but **** even I felt that.