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If Captain America is a 50 on a scale of 100 in pure fighting skill where do these fall?

Richard Dragon
Karate Kid
Iron Fist
Wonder Women
Gamora
Thor Odinson
Orion
Ra's al Ghul
Red Skull
Aquaman
Namor
Ben Grim
Lady Shiva
Mantis
DC Ares
Marvel Ares

Originally posted by Gadabout

Thor Odinson


You must have forgotten to hit enter. These are two completely different characters. Smh.

For real (reeel)? Just trying to be clear on it being current son of Odin Thor... go with Odinson then?

Why didn't you include Batman on the list?

Because when it comes to measuring Bat's fighting skill. To putit one way.....

https://i.imgur.com/psA9jHo.gif

Originally posted by Gadabout
If Captain America is a 50 on a scale of 100 in pure fighting skill where do these fall?

Richard Dragon - 100
Karate Kid - Off the scale.
Iron Fist - 100
Wonder Women - 45
Gamora - 46
Thor Odinson - 40
Orion - 50
Ra's al Ghul - 60
Red Skull - 49
Aquaman - 20
Namor - 10
Ben Grim - 5
Lady Shiva - 100
Mantis - Off the scale (**** Moondragon)
DC Ares - 50
Marvel Ares - Dunno.

Richard Dragon 100
Karate Kid 1,000,000,000,000,000.....
Iron Fist 100
Wonder Woman 40
Gamora 40
Thor Odinson 35
Orion 20
Ra's al Ghul 10
Red Skull 10
Aquaman 35
Namor 35
Ben Grim 35
Lady Shiva 100
Mantis 100


Rounding off here.
If numbers match for characters i mean theyre in the same tier. I could break those particular characters down further, but this is good enough for thread purposes.
Ditched the 2 Ares characters, dont know them well enough.

hrm. proof dragon is literally TWICE as good as cap....? he MAY be a better fighter but he was getting rocked by bronze tiger at one point iirc. not buying he's anything more than a 60 at best--not without some definite proof. and IF is twice as good too?? seriously? can't quite recall what happened when cap and danny actually fought that one time..... oh, yeah i do. cap kicked his ass without really even trying before taking a fist to the shield.

some versions of KK could maybe be 100. no one else on that list is even CLOSE to twice as good as steve. but i'd love to see scans that support the idea.

Originally posted by leonidas
hrm. proof dragon is literally TWICE as good as cap....? he MAY be a better fighter but he was getting rocked by bronze tiger at one point iirc. not buying he's anything more than a 60 at best--not without some definite proof. and IF is twice as good too?? seriously? can't quite recall what happened when cap and danny actually fought that one time..... oh, yeah i do. cap kicked his ass without really even trying before taking a fist to the shield.

some versions of KK could maybe be 100. no one else on that list is even CLOSE to twice as good as steve. but i'd love to see scans that support the idea.

I have to agree with you Leo, except with Mantis, she is or should be well ahead of Cap.

Originally posted by leonidas
hrm. proof dragon is literally TWICE as good as cap....? he MAY be a better fighter but he was getting rocked by bronze tiger at one point iirc. not buying he's anything more than a 60 at best--not without some definite proof. and IF is twice as good too?? seriously? can't quite recall what happened when cap and danny actually fought that one time..... oh, yeah i do. cap kicked his ass without really even trying before taking a fist to the shield.

some versions of KK could maybe be 100. no one else on that list is even CLOSE to twice as good as steve. but i'd love to see scans that support the idea.

He was well above Tiger, Tiger himself admitted as much. He was only knocking some sense into Richard, they weren't fighting for real.

When he was serious, he matched Shiva (Who could merc Cap), and only got killed because he hesitated to kill her.

again, what proof is there that shiva would merc cap? she can't merc batman and cap is most certainly, 100% in bat's class.

@stoic--i'd disagree with mantis too. she's good, better even maybe, but twice as good as cap? not imo. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
again, what proof is there that shiva would merc cap? she can't merc batman and cap is most certainly, 100% in bat's class.

@stoic--i'd disagree with mantis too. she's good, better even maybe, but twice as good as cap? not imo. /shrug
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/lady-shiva-beats-batman-rebirth-1.jpg

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/lady-shiva-beats-batman-rebirth-2.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
hrm. proof dragon is literally TWICE as good as cap....?
I'm judging on pure skill.
There's no doubt in my mind Dragon's more technically skilled than Cap, hence the rating.
Cap brings more than just skill to an actual fight though.
The SS puts him on a higher level than/even level with physically normal humans who are better fighters.

The below scan is Iron Fist's first meeting with Cap:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/3725083-iron+fist+12+-+assault+on+avengers%27+mansion%21+-+06.jpg

IF's assessment of Cap in the last panel is the important part towards my POV.
Cap's technique is basic.
His overall physical stats though, make that basic technique more than enough in most cases.

Technique (skill) is what's being rated here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/lady-shiva-beats-batman-rebirth-1.jpg

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/lady-shiva-beats-batman-rebirth-2.jpg

cool scene. sounds like a thanos-esque retcon where we assume any loss she had was because she was "playing some roll". by that reasoning do we assume she is >>>cassie and dragon too? definitely a good showing but i'd love to see the rematch. bats has had his a$$ handed to him several times, but usually makes up for it in the next showing. not enough for me to say she is TWICE as good as cap/bats, at least not without more proof. /shrug

Cassie was established as >>> Batman.

Bruce himself admitted it.

"What would you have done if you fought her for real?"

"...I'd lose."

Originally posted by Gadabout
If Captain America is a 50 on a scale of 100 in pure fighting skill where do these fall?

Richard Dragon....60-perhaps
Karate Kid...toon level...so unrateable
Iron Fist....50
Wonder Women....40
Gamora....60
Thor Odinson.... 45/I've never understood why comics don"t make "immortals" who have been training and fighting for thousands of years at a much higher skill level than "mortals"

Orion....?
Ra's al Ghul...40
Red Skull....35
Aquaman.....30
Namor....25
Ben Grim....30
Lady Shiva....60
Mantis....50/though I could rate her higher...it's many years since I've read anything about her
DC Ares...20/same thoughts as with Thor
Marvel Ares....30 see above

Originally posted by leonidas
cool scene.
Yeah it is.
Originally posted by riv6672
The below scan is Iron Fist's first meeting with Cap:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/3725083-iron+fist+12+-+assault+on+avengers%27+mansion%21+-+06.jpg

IF's assessment of Cap in the last panel is the important part towards my POV.
Cap's technique is basic.
His overall physical stats though, make that basic technique more than enough in most cases.

Technique (skill) is what's being rated here.

Originally posted by riv6672
I'm judging on pure skill.
There's no doubt in my mind Dragon's more technically skilled than Cap, hence the rating.
Cap brings more than just skill to an actual fight though.
The SS puts him on a higher level than/even level with physically normal humans who are better fighters.

The below scan is Iron Fist's first meeting with Cap:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80103/3725083-iron+fist+12+-+assault+on+avengers%27+mansion%21+-+06.jpg

IF's assessment of Cap in the last panel is the important part towards my POV.
Cap's technique is basic.
His overall physical stats though, make that basic technique more than enough in most cases.

Technique (skill) is what's being rated here.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142050/4444930-7526792619-iNPBS.png

cap effortlessly took out that guy who was possessed of every h2h technique in the world. his technique CAN be basic, but he has been shown to be a technical master of many techniques through his career as well. and his speed and strength factor into his ability to be a great h2h opponent.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111237843/4929041-3908691102-capta.jpg

even bp has commented on the fact that cap can adapt to every fighting style in the world. he has tons of nerve point and pressure point showings as well showing clear mastery of martial skills that are anything but basic. using a singular showing to base these ratings on doesn't seem to make much sense to me. /shrug

You didnt negate my point.
His adaptation is due to the SS.
Taking out that guy is due to superior physical stats, the SS.

Pure skill wise, he's not as technical as Dragon.
Thanks for responding after i egged you in a bit though.

So is Cap essentially like Superman of the streets then?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So is Cap essentially like Superman of the streets then?

That's exactly what he is.

A Juggernaut fan by the name of Cain Marco on another board used to call it the "Cap factor". For example, someone like Spidey, who regularly tangles with 50-100 tonners, marvels at Cap's haymaker and compares it to an atom bomb: Cap factor.

Originally posted by cdtm
For example, someone like Spidey, who regularly tangles with 50-100 tonners

And gets f*cked by them...

Least there's always Wilson Fisk.

That scene with Cap is Marvels version of the scan Abhi posted.

Originally posted by cdtm
That's exactly what he is.

A Juggernaut fan by the name of Cain Marco on another board used to call it the "Cap factor". For example, someone like Spidey, who regularly tangles with 50-100 tonners, marvels at Cap's haymaker and compares it to an atom bomb: Cap factor.

Nowadays Cap factor means CIS-white male factor. Which means he is an evil Nazi.

Phucking Marvel. What a shit company.

Originally posted by riv6672
You didnt negate my point.
His adaptation is due to the SS.
Taking out that guy is due to superior physical stats, the SS.

Pure skill wise, he's not as technical as Dragon.
Thanks for responding after i egged you in a bit though.

huh? that makes no sense. he isn't skilled because of the serum. he's faster and stronger but had learned the skills, same as any one has.

and you can't have it both ways then--he beat spidey who is faster and stronger than he is. not to mention namor, done well vs hulk via nerve strikes, etc...

and you MAY be right--he may not be as technical as dragon (who has precious few showings to own up to his rep) but the degree of difference wouldn't be as great as you think imo.

when he was skinny, sickly rogers, steve took out multiple super soldiers. as old man rogers he took out his son ian who'd made the avengers look like children. he's got plenty of showings that demonstrate his skills as being FAR beyond that basic comment that was made 40 years ago. /shrug

Originally posted by cdtm
Cassie was established as >>> Batman.

Bruce himself admitted it.

"What would you have done if you fought her for real?"

"...I'd lose."

in some cases it appears that way, in others bats has done just fine against her though. and for that matter, bats admitted cap would beat him too, so there's that. /shrug

i've never understood the whole "cap isn't super skilled" thing. he's got plenty of showings that indicate otherwise.

You can be super skilled and use more basic techniques too.

Being a good fighter just means being a good fighter. It doesnt mean being flashy.

Originally posted by leonidas
in some cases it appears that way, in others bats has done just fine against her though. and for that matter, bats admitted cap would beat him too, so there's that. /shrug

i've never understood the whole "cap isn't super skilled" thing. he's got plenty of showings that indicate otherwise.

No one's saying he isn't skilled. Just that he's not the apex of skill.

It's the same reasoning T'challa gave comparing Danny to Shang Chi, with the former having far superior chi reserves, but lesser skill. Just substitite chi for super soldier serum enhanced stats..

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You can be super skilled and use more basic techniques too.

Being a good fighter just means being a good fighter. It doesnt mean being flashy.

Early Ippo against the black guy. How many times did his coach say his opponent is more skilled then him?

Good thing Ippo can take a punch.

Originally posted by cdtm
No one's saying he isn't skilled. Just that he's not the apex of skill.

It's the same reasoning T'challa gave comparing Danny to Shang Chi, with the former having far superior chi reserves, but lesser skill. Just substitite chi for super soldier serum enhanced stats..

i can get behind that sort of, though i'm not sure the danny/shang thing holds up under direct scrutiny. in that sense though, it's REALLY impossible to say danny is more skilled than cap since according to what you just said, BOTH have enhancements.

for that matter, cassie is also enhanced. people seem to want to credit the serum for rogers' showings, while at the same time ignoring enhancements in others that ALSO translate to increased perceived skill. matt has radar to aid him, a huge enhancement. bp has his suit and the herbs, plus whatever idiotic enhancements he has as kotd. even shang is chi enhanced. all of those things translate into increased speed and power for those guys, so why is rogers being dinged when none of the others are? at best we can then say they are all roughly equal, and at worst we have no idea how they would ACTUALLY fare against each other. they are ALL superhuman. and that superhumanity contributes to ALL their skill levels. taking that a step further, it would mean dc's ma guys really ARE far superior to marvel's since people like bats and shiva and dragon and bronze tiger and dick really have NO enhancements to speak of at all....

Originally posted by leonidas
cool scene. sounds like a thanos-esque retcon where we assume any loss she had was because she was "playing some roll". by that reasoning do we assume she is >>>cassie and dragon too? definitely a good showing but i'd love to see the rematch. bats has had his a$$ handed to him several times, but usually makes up for it in the next showing. not enough for me to say she is TWICE as good as cap/bats, at least not without more proof. /shrug
In the rematch she was beating him and Cassie together IIRC.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You can be super skilled and use more basic techniques too.

Being a good fighter just means being a good fighter. It doesnt mean being flashy. I agre, solid basics are often superior to flashy stuff. Most great boxers work off a stiff jab.

Originally posted by abhilegend
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/lady-shiva-beats-batman-rebirth-1.jpg

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/lady-shiva-beats-batman-rebirth-2.jpg

Where's that from Abhi? I've not read that and I'd like to buy it. Thanks

Originally posted by leonidas
i can get behind that sort of, though i'm not sure the danny/shang thing holds up under direct scrutiny. in that sense though, it's REALLY impossible to say danny is more skilled than cap since according to what you just said, BOTH have enhancements.

for that matter, cassie is also enhanced. people seem to want to credit the serum for rogers' showings, while at the same time ignoring enhancements in others that ALSO translate to increased perceived skill. matt has radar to aid him, a huge enhancement. bp has his suit and the herbs, plus whatever idiotic enhancements he has as kotd. even shang is chi enhanced. all of those things translate into increased speed and power for those guys, so why is rogers being dinged when none of the others are? at best we can then say they are all roughly equal, and at worst we have no idea how they would ACTUALLY fare against each other. they are ALL superhuman. and that superhumanity contributes to ALL their skill levels. taking that a step further, it would mean dc's ma guys really ARE far superior to marvel's since people like bats and shiva and dragon and bronze tiger and dick really have NO enhancements to speak of at all....

Cassandra Cain enhanced?

Has she been reclassified or something? Her original solo series took pain to claim biologically, she's normal. It's the bizarre training that accounts for her skills, which could be said of any hardcore martial artist..

And spot on about Danny. I was using T'challa's quote by way of explanation, but that doesn't mean I believe it..

The recent Iron Fist match with a possessed Shang Chi actually had them locked in a borderline stalemate for awhile, until the villain got impatient and yelled at Shang that he's supposed to kill Iron Fist, not play with him..

Originally posted by leonidas
huh? that makes no sense. he isn't skilled because of the serum. he's faster and stronger but had learned the skills, same as any one has.

and you can't have it both ways then--he beat spidey who is faster and stronger than he is. not to mention namor, done well vs hulk via nerve strikes, etc...

and you MAY be right--he may not be as technical as dragon (who has precious few showings to own up to his rep) but the degree of difference wouldn't be as great as you think imo.

when he was skinny, sickly rogers, steve took out multiple super soldiers. as old man rogers he took out his son ian who'd made the avengers look like children. he's got plenty of showings that demonstrate his skills as being FAR beyond that basic comment that was made 40 years ago. /shrug
Agree to disagree, and i'm perfectly okay with that.

I just wanted to make sure my point was clear to you, and you hadnt ignored it without understanding it.

Originally posted by cdtm
No one's saying he isn't skilled. Just that he's not the apex of skill.

It's the same reasoning T'challa gave comparing Danny to Shang Chi, with the former having far superior chi reserves, but lesser skill. Just substitite chi for super soldier serum enhanced stats..
Cap's been specifically noted as being more skilled than Shang on at least one occasion. Just sayin...

Originally posted by spetznaz
Where's that from Abhi? I've not read that and I'd like to buy it. Thanks
Detective Comics 957 IIRC.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Cap's been specifically noted as being more skilled than Shang on at least one occasion. Just sayin...

Hah.

That may be true, but doesn't make much sense when you consider Shangs been literally training all his life, while Cap spent a good amount of time on ice.

Anyways, when they sparred last, Cap made mention of suffering broken bones..

Originally posted by darthgoober
Cap's been specifically noted as being more skilled than Shang on at least one occasion. Just sayin...
Which is why you cant take everything at face value.

Cap has the advantage of being physically superior to most streets. Assume everyone is in equal bodies.

The song remains the same in ny case.

Originally posted by riv6672
Which is why you cant take everything at face value.

like danny calling cap's technique basic 40 years ago?

Exactly.
It has to be backed up by what we see in story. Or dont see, in Cap's case, which is a lifetime of MA training.

Boxing. Judo. Gymnastics.
This is what Cap was taught before being sent into battle in WWII. He's fused this into his own unique fighting style incorporating his shield.
Its basic.
But it works for him, because his greater than himan stats make it devastatingly effective.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/zVOhf.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm
Hah.

That may be true, but doesn't make much sense when you consider Shangs been literally training all his life, while Cap spent a good amount of time on ice.

Anyways, when they sparred last, Cap made mention of suffering broken bones..

Originally posted by riv6672
Exactly.
It has to be backed up by what we see in story. Or dont see, in Cap's case, which is a lifetime of MA training.


Yeah but din't forget, he's also got enhanced brain functions because of the serium. He doesn't need to study for years and years. In fact it's also been specifically noted by Kang that when he was training for zero grav combat that he was intuitively learning techniques in either hours or days(I honestly can't remember which) that it took others years to master.

and beast backed that up saying he masters any weapon in seconds, and bp admitted he adapts to any fighting style immediately.

this is because he didn't have a life time of training? lol what the hell does THAT matter. the only thing that matters is what takes place on panel. the ONLY person i ever saw purely 'out skill' cap was moondragon and that was when weak was suffering from the serum going wrong and was a complete feeb. LOVE to see a scan supporting the idea that these guys are more skilled than he is. been waiting now for 3 pages and still haven't seen anything--at least nothing remotely close to supporting some of the stances i've seen. unlike a few people here, i'm open to having my mind changed--i just need to see proof. i've shown some defending my stance--waiting for the other side.

Originally posted by leonidas
and beast backed that up saying he masters any weapon in seconds, and bp admitted he adapts to any fighting style immediately.

this is because he didn't have a life time of training? lol what the hell does THAT matter. the only thing that matters is what takes place on panel. the ONLY person i ever saw purely 'out skill' cap was moondragon and that was when weak was suffering from the serum going wrong and was a complete feeb. LOVE to see a scan supporting the idea that these guys are more skilled than he is. been waiting now for 3 pages and still haven't seen anything--at least nothing remotely close to supporting some of the stances i've seen. unlike a few people here, i'm open to having my mind changed--i just need to see proof. i've shown some defending my stance--waiting for the other side.
Plus Moondragon's a bad ass martial artist herself, she went through the exact same kind of training that Mantis did. The difference is that Mantis was only really portrayed as an empath until GoG so her skill was featured a lot, while Moondragon's been shown as a high level telepath/telekinetic since her debut so throwing a bunch of punches and kicks in the "boss battles" didn't really make a lot of sense. People say she hasn't done much other than beating Mantis, but a lack of feats isn't the same as low feats. I think Moondragon's worst showing was her losing to Daredevil in one of her earliest(if not her outright first) appearances.

C'mon, this is much worse than her losing to DD:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/20066/1292224-1083497_m2i1_moondragon_super.gif

I don't like bald chicks but I gotta say Moondragon always did something for me.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
C'mon, this is much worse than her losing to DD:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/20066/1292224-1083497_m2i1_moondragon_super.gif
I didn't say most embarrassing, I said lowest lol. Someone with human level strength being manhandled by the Thing isn't exactly "low".

Besides, how do you know she doesn't like being spanked

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but din't forget, he's also got enhanced brain functions because of the serium. He doesn't need to study for years and years. In fact it's also been specifically noted by Kang that when he was training for zero grav combat that he was intuitively learning techniques in either hours or days(I honestly can't remember which) that it took others years to master.

Well, that settles it.

Cap is Marvels Superman and Batman combined.

At least in Bats case, holding his own with Val Armorr in zero g combat is clear cut, inarguable PIS.. Though that doeen't stop some from citing that "feat" (Do they also argue Spiderman beating Firelord does not fit the definition of Spiderman vs Firelord" in the rules, I wonder? )

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I don't like bald chicks but I gotta say Moondragon always did something for me.
Same.

Originally posted by darthgoober
...Someone with human level strength being manhandled by the Thing isn't exactly "low".

And someone with the SS shouldnt be ranked higher than other MA, because SS enhances his physical stats and makes his basic fighting style devastatingly effective.

Again, just one of those agree/disagree situations.
Was a fun conversation though.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I don't like bald chicks but I gotta say Moondragon always did something for me.
https://clairedeadfieldcosplayandmore.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/164434_528774277177268_1743245568_n.jpg

It looks better in art than in real life I guess.

Originally posted by leonidas
and beast backed that up saying he masters any weapon in seconds, and bp admitted he adapts to any fighting style immediately.

this is because he didn't have a life time of training? lol what the hell does THAT matter. the only thing that matters is what takes place on panel. the ONLY person i ever saw purely 'out skill' cap was moondragon and that was when weak was suffering from the serum going wrong and was a complete feeb. LOVE to see a scan supporting the idea that these guys are more skilled than he is. been waiting now for 3 pages and still haven't seen anything--at least nothing remotely close to supporting some of the stances i've seen. unlike a few people here, i'm open to having my mind changed--i just need to see proof. i've shown some defending my stance--waiting for the other side.
T'chaka has straight up defeated Cap.

Originally posted by abhilegend
T'chaka has straight up defeated Cap. a much younger, less experienced cap.

Originally posted by deathslash
a much younger, less experienced cap.

According to Taskmaster, Steve was at his best during the war.

Same Steve bitched Extremis Tony, too.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
According to Taskmaster, Steve was at his best during the war.

Same Steve bitched Extremis Tony, too. and taskmaster has a point of reference for this how?

Cap was definitely less skilled, undeniably less experienced, and didn't truly grow as a martial artist until after the war.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
According to Taskmaster, Steve was at his best during the war.

Same Steve bitched Extremis Tony, too.

Taskmasters a jobber.

You can go across Cap and Bat Family history and find plenty of eyebrow raising feats (Just recently after Darkseid War, these metal dog like things were dodging Barry "I see f'n attoseconds" Allen, then Batman punch's one square in the nose. Barry asks "HOW DID YOU DO THAT?!??", and Bats smugly says "You need to hit them where they're going to be."

Originally posted by deathslash
and taskmaster has a point of reference for this how?

http://i.imgur.com/2uICqof.jpg

Originally posted by deathslash
Cap was definitely less skilled, undeniably less experienced, and didn't truly grow as a martial artist until after the war.

Tell that to Tony

Originally posted by cdtm
Taskmasters a jobber.

You can go across Cap and Bat Family history and find plenty of eyebrow raising feats (Just recently after Darkseid War, these metal dog like things were dodging Barry "I see f'n attoseconds" Allen, then Batman punch's one square in the nose. Barry asks "HOW DID YOU DO THAT?!??", and Bats smugly says "You need to hit them where they're going to be."
Thats why these lists are fun to discuss, but nothing to get worked up over.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://i.imgur.com/2uICqof.jpg



Tell that to Tony

lol

he would hardly have faced a superhuman by that time, let alone some of the martial artists he's been forced to face since then.

point stands--current cap hasn't been out skilled by any of these supposed martial artists. a person also doesn't have to be a traditional martial artist to be a great h2h opponent either. cap is a blend of many different forms but just because he doesn't fight like bruce lee doesn't mean he wouldn't adapt to that style and kicj lee's ass enforcing his own style on him.

again, proof is in the feats. if there was some proof these guys were all much better than he was, fine. evidence does not support that conclusion so sticking to the opinion seems pretty illogical. are some better than he is? maybe, but there isn't anyone on that list even CLOSE to twice as he is.

Maybe not directly outskilled..

He did look significantly less adept against an Aleph then Shang did. Caught outrighf with his blue pants down.

And come to think of it, Logan HAS directly beaten him in a fight.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

he would hardly have faced a superhuman by that time, let alone some of the martial artists he's been forced to face since then.

Wrong. Remember his time in Invaders.

Sure, logically hundreds-thousands of appearances in many titles should contribute to heroes having much greater experience, but this "getting sloppy in heroic age" thing is being mentioned in other titles (like Moon Knight and Wolverine), too. Not exactly a new thing.

This topic can have its own thread, when you think of it.

--
Back to the "basic technique" thing - yes, as lifeslash or someone said already, being flashy doesn't always mean being the most effective.

Wolverine's Manifest Destiny mini showed us that:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3424709-manifest+3.jpg

person also doesn't have to be a traditional martial artist to be a great h2h opponent either.
Exactly.


Enforcing his own style backed by superior physical abilities yes. Agreed.

This thread isnt about who kicks who's ass, its about who's got the most skill, though, and nearly everyone's either ignoring that, or cant wrap their brains around what you pointed out in the first part of your post i quoted.

Originally posted by riv6672
person also doesn't have to be a traditional martial artist to be a great h2h opponent either.
Exactly.


Enforcing his own style backed by superior physical abilities yes. Agreed.

This thread isnt about who kicks who's ass, its about who's got the most skill, though, and nearly everyone's either ignoring that, or cant wrap their brains around what you pointed out in the first part of your post i quoted.

Oscar De La Hoya is a lot more skilled then Mike Tyson. Pretty clear who would win in a fight at their peaks.

Nearly EVERYBODY is more skilled then Butterbean, yet he had a pretty good Tough Man record..

That doesnt negate anything i said. I'd watch that fight, though!

Originally posted by cdtm
Cassandra Cain enhanced?

Has she been reclassified or something? Her original solo series took pain to claim biologically, she's normal. It's the bizarre training that accounts for her skills, which could be said of any hardcore martial artist..

And spot on about Danny. I was using T'challa's quote by way of explanation, but that doesn't mean I believe it..

The recent Iron Fist match with a possessed Shang Chi actually had them locked in a borderline stalemate for awhile, until the villain got impatient and yelled at Shang that he's supposed to kill Iron Fist, not play with him.. Orphan or CC is both enhanced and not enhanced. Let me explain when she first became Batgirl over 12 yrs ago DC hinted pretty strongly that her speed and reflexes were just short of the theoretical limits of human anatomy. But the reason I say she isn't she doesn't have the insane feats like Cap of throwing a shield 10,000 ft in the air. Nevertheless people like Batman & Cap have demonstrated insane lvl of STR & Durability. My personal opinon is she's enhanced speed, reflexes and agility wise. But not durability and STR wise.

Originally posted by riv6672
And someone with the SS shouldnt be ranked higher than other MA, because SS enhances his physical stats and makes his basic fighting style devastatingly effective.

Again, just one of those agree/disagree situations.
Was a fun conversation though.

That's why I haven't been bringing up physical feats, but rather denotations of skill. Like it being outright stated that he's more skilled than Shang Chi. His arsenal goes way beyond basic fighting techniques, we're talking about someone who's done stuff like using a pressure point on the forehead to blind Hank Pym when he(Cap) was trapped in Red Skull's body(and this was Redskull's aged body, not the cloned body of Cap).

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://i.imgur.com/2uICqof.jpg

Yeah but he's specifically talking about how Cap had more of an edge back then, not about how skilled he is. WW2 Cap used to kill Nazis on a fairly regular basis and that's a of mindset someone like Taskmaster is going to see as superior to what Cap exhibits in modern times.

Originally posted by riv6672
That doesnt negate anything i said. I'd watch that fight, though!

I was agreeing with you by posting lesser skilled guys who could beat more skilled.

Originally posted by shadowknight
Orphan or CC is both enhanced and not enhanced. Let me explain when she first became Batgirl over 12 yrs ago DC hinted pretty strongly that her speed and reflexes were just short of the theoretical limits of human anatomy. But the reason I say she isn't she doesn't have the insane feats like Cap of throwing a shield 10,000 ft in the air. Nevertheless people like Batman & Cap have demonstrated insane lvl of STR & Durability. My personal opinon is she's enhanced speed, reflexes and agility wise. But not durability and STR wise.

Her striking power is good enough to level a prison wall, punch through bullet proof prison glass, and KO a meta that took out Batman, so if she's physically weak she somehow manages good striking feats.

Originally posted by cdtm
I was agreeing with you by posting lesser skilled guys who could beat more skilled.
Maaaan, i'm so used to being on the opposite end of everyone's viewpoint at KMC, it takes me by surprise when i'm NOT!

Originally posted by cdtm
Her striking power is good enough to level a prison wall, punch through bullet proof prison glass, and KO a meta that took out Batman, so if she's physically weak she somehow manages good striking feats.
Imagine uf she worked out...!

Cap's physical edge gives him extra speed and reflexes. These contribute greatly to skill. In equal bodies many top MA would be him in h2h consistently.

Originally posted by h1a8
Cap's physical edge gives him extra speed and reflexes. These contribute greatly to skill. In equal bodies many top MA would be him in h2h consistently. Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Wolverine, Blade, and Daredevil all prove this statement to be false.

Originally posted by deathslash
Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Wolverine, Blade, and Daredevil all prove this statement to be false.

None of that is true.

There's so much more (and more recent) lip service to Cap having elite skill versus comments on him being a basic/novice fighter... but even if we put that aside as equal evidence, or worthless commentary, no evidence supports any other MA (besides some versions of Karate Kid and maybe Bats 1M) being twice the skill level of Cap.

For the most skilled fighters, it's more like +/- 5-10 points on this scale.

Originally posted by cdtm
None of that is true. how is that? Shang and Danny both use chi amping that makes the physical difference nearly a non factor. Cap has taken out blade (who has superior physicals), and Daredevil has senses that definitely lessen the stat advantage.

Originally posted by Smurph
There's so much more (and more recent) lip service to Cap having elite skill versus comments on him being a basic/novice fighter... but even if we put that aside as equal evidence, or worthless commentary, no evidence supports any other MA (besides some versions of Karate Kid and maybe Bats 1M) being twice the skill level of Cap.

For the most skilled fighters, it's more like +/- 5-10 points on this scale.

Mantis and Val Armorr have an established history of fighting herald level beings. Through nothing more then pure skill.

When you can legitimately fight Superman or Thor with human level stats, and without it being PIS, then yes, you're more then twice as skilled as Cap.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but he's specifically talking about how Cap had more of an edge back then, not about how skilled he is. WW2 Cap used to kill Nazis on a fairly regular basis and that's a of mindset someone like Taskmaster is going to see as superior to what Cap exhibits in modern times.

I like what you're saying. Probably right.

We also need to remember that Steve really believed in America back then. And in Allied forces in general.

Repeat: look at Invaders Cap vs. Extremis IM.