Quinlan Vos vs. Obi Wan Kenobi

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Rebel95
-DD Vos
-ROTS Kenobi

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

Who takes this?

godemperortrump
Kenobi takes sabers and all-out, but Vos has the force edge

DarthAnt66
Vos' style seems more tailored to someone like Dooku than Kenobi.

Based on his performance vs Anakin, Kenobi should win in a brutal contest.

Rockydonovang
Beating Dooku with a stylistic advantage is better than losing to Dooku with Anakin fcking Skywalker as your backup with a stylistic disadvantage.

If this is canon, there really is no argument to be made for Kenobi here.

If it's legends, you could argue that Kenobi grew after his fight vs Dooku, However we have no way toguage how much he grew, so an argument for Vos remains more solid. Additionally, given that Vosbeat Dooku despite Dooku ragdolling him twice, I doubt Kenobi's going tobe able to beat Vos with force power.

DarthAnt66
Uh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3frK9-OiQ0&t=1m42s.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3frK9-OiQ0&t=1m42s.
Uh, circumstantial.

You have no way of proving that Vos couldn't have replicated Kenobi's performance under the same circumstances. In fact, given Vos has beat a dude who Kenobi lost to, Vos is likely to perform better.

And yes, Vos had a style edge, Kenobi had the fcking chosen one as backup.

DarthAnt66
There's nothing indicating (mental) circumstance in Canon until the very end of the fight.

The reality is the following:

Obi-Wan held his own for ten minutes against the same Anakin who beat Dooku in fifteen seconds.

Which begs the question, which is better:

1.) Prolonging a battle with a tier nine for ten minutes with two significant advantages.

2.) Defeating in battle a tier eight, who lost to the tier nine in fifteen seconds, with one significant advantage.

Frankly, I'm not sure.

Clearly Obi-Wan's advantages were extreme, but the time differences were likewise and can't just be dismissed.

At least, I'm not dismissing them.

---

A simple comparison in performance against Dooku isn't fair, either

Obi-Wan messed up by attacking, which is a weakness of his, and Dooku exploited, got Obi-Wan off balance, and then choked him.

We can refer to Season 6 of The Clone Wars with the ease at which Dooku can exploit someone of Obi-Wan's style.

There's no indication Quinlan can do likewise. Quinlan's style isn't really one to pick apart the subtle flaws. It's just blind unpredictability.

Hence why I rather just prefer Obi-Wan to Quinlan style-wise, in which stone-wall Kenobi beats unpredictable offensive Vos.

Kurk
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Kenobi takes sabers and all-out, but Vos has the force edge Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vos' style seems more tailored to someone like Dooku than Kenobi.

Based on his performance vs Anakin, Kenobi should win in a brutal contest.
yes and yes

Rebel95
Also in ROTS Dooku has to use the force to break through Obi-Wan's defenses. I'm not sure Vos is powerful enough to do the same, and I don't see him breaking through Obi Wan's soresu either.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's nothing indicating circumstance in Canon until the very end of the fight.

It's stated by Gillard that their intimate knowledge of each other made them perfectly matched. So, nah, Kenobi's performance was circumstantial.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Obi-Wan held his own for ten minutes against the same Anakin who beat Dooku in fifteen seconds.

Which begs the question, which is better:

1.) Prolonging a battle with a tier nine for ten minutes with two significant advantages.

2.) Defeating in battle a tier eight, who lost to the tier nine in fifteen seconds, with one significant advantage.

Frankly, I'm not sure.

Frankly, guessing which performance is better is just speculation, as we aren't going to to be able to quantify the affect of the extra advantage or disadvantage. Fortunately, we don't need this conjecture as both Vos and Kenobi have fought against the same opponent, Dooku.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A simple comparison in performance against Dooku isn't fair, either

A good thing I acknowledged the circumstances then.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Obi-Wan messed up by attacking, which is a weakness of his, and Dooku exploited, got Obi-Wan off balance, and then choked him.

If Kenobi can't attack Dooku without being thrown off balance, then he's inferior. There's also Dooku twisting Kenobi around and drawing his blade to Anakin's, and dealing with both Kenobi and Anakiin's attacks simultaneously.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
We can refer to Season 6 of The Clone Wars with the ease at which Dooku can exploit someone of Obi-Wan's style.

Nah, because Dooku also clowns Anakin there, someone who wields a form advantage against him. Dooku clowns Kenobi there coz he's much better as of TCW.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no indication Quinlan can do likewise. Quinlan's style isn't really one to pick apart the subtle flaws. It's just blind unpredictability.

You're acting as if Dooku's method of beating Kenobi is the only way one can do so. If someone is sufficiently skilled, they can beat their opponent regardless of style matchups. Vos beat Dooku, Kenobi was shown as inferior to Dooku despite having Anakin as backup. I'm not buying Vos having a stylistic edge being sufficient to make up for Kenobi's significantly worse performance.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Hence why I rather just prefer Obi-Wan to Quinlan style-wise, in which stone-wall Kenobi beats unpredictable offensive Vos.
Or, Vos's unpredictable offense overwhelms Kenobi's defenses. This is pure conjecture right here. We go with who performs better, not who may or may not have some hypothetical matchup edge.

Kurk
It was Dooku who "barely overextended" not Vos who somehow out-skilled him.

And seeing that Dooku had to use the force or acrobatics rather than saber skill to over-power Kenobi in every post AotC fight, I don't know why there's any case to be made for Vos.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Kurk
It was Dooku who "barely overextended" not Vos who somehow out-skilled him.

Vos forcing Dooku to overextend is a showing of skill. That a stylistic edge granted him victory doesn't change he was skilled enough to fight evenly with someone who has only ever showcased superiority to Kenobi, even when Kenobi had backup.
Originally posted by Kurk
And seeing that Dooku had to use the force or acrobatics rather than saber skill to over-power Kenobi in every post AotC fight, I don't know why there's any case to be made for Vos. Dooku didn't need either to make Kenobi look like a clown:
https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m25s

Greysentinel365
Vos pulls Kenobi's lightsaber out of his hand then kills him

DarthAnt66
@Kbro: No, no, no.

The fact Obi-Wan and Anakin have styles that perfectly match each other does not preclude the factors of strength, speed, sense, etc.

Obi-Wan is good enough in those fields to actually be a match to Anakin when style is factored in - that's a big deal you're overlooking.

The idea of Obi-Wan being unable to attack Dooku being inferior is unfair to say the least. Obi-Wan becomes vulnerable in moments of aggression, which Dooku always manages to exploit. That's simply a stylistic advantage of Dooku's style, which revolves around such precision. We can conclude this since Anakin is unable to exploit such flaws, showing that Dooku's style is more suited toward picking apart Obi-Wan than aggressive forms than Anakin (or Grievous and Maul). If it was a matter of skill, than Anakin should be capable of likewise dominating Obi-Wan when he launches attacks.

Most importantly, you have this idea that Vos beat Dooku out of skill. If you read the novel, you'd discover that is the one idea explicitly not conveyed in the fight. The author directly compares Dooku's mastery of lightsaber combat (skill) as directly opposite to Quinlan Vos' pure unpredictability that, as per the narrator, bewilders even himself, thus establishing what Vos is doing is not skill-based.

Let's look at how the Episode II script, which is still being used in Canon, describes Dooku:

DOOKU is the complete swordsman - elegant, graceful, classical - a master of the old style.

Notice those three adjectives used to describe Dooku would be the exact opposite of Quinlan. The most blatant conclusion to take from their fight is that Dooku is stylistic to a fault. His entire swordfighting career has been one of principles, standards, and rules of engagement, far more so than perhaps anyone else in an era renowned for such (as elaborated by Nick Gillard in, I believe, an Episode I documentary). Quinlan is the opposite. There is no grace to his fighting style. Hell, there is no style to his fighting - he's devoid of any style, which makes him impossibly unpredictable for someone like Dooku to combat effectively. That being said, there's little indication this applies to other fighters such as, say, Obi-Wan. Again, Quinlan's style was perfect for Dooku, but Obi-Wan has more experience fighting unpredictable opponents than anyone. Granted, I doubt anyone in the mythos is as unpredictable as Quinlan besides perhaps Sidious, but considering we know Obi-Wan can contend with Quinlan on most avenues of combat (strength, speed, sense, etc.), it seems clear to me that all that remains is simply stylistic differences, in which a stone-wall should be beating an unpredictable flurry.

For the record, don't respond to me again by points. I'm not going to bother to respond to that individually.

This isn't even necessarily directed toward you despite what the top says. This is just outlining my rational to everyone.

godemperortrump
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku's style is more suited toward picking apart Obi-Wan than aggressive forms than Anakin (or Grievous and Maul).
You think he'd struggle against Maul??

DarthAnt66
I mean, my text didn't remotely convey that idea, but sure, Dooku isn't downing Maul quickly. They're both officially in the same heavy-weight class of fighting, after all.

UCanShootMyNova
Vos.

Rockydonovang
@ant I might respond tomorrow, I'm going to need to relook at sh!t regarding Anakin vs Kenobi though.

Kenobi being able to match Anakin in augmentation is...sus.

As for Vos, I've never tried to argue Vos was legitmately>Dooku. As I noted, his style edge granted him victory. But I'm not going to go with a stylistic edge making up for the difference between being able to beat someone and then being outdueled despite having backup.

I'm also not seeing why we should assume Kenobi's stone wall can hold up indefinitely against the stonewall of someone who's unpredictable offense is as impressive as Vos's. Even assuming that Anakin was still a tier 9 on Mustafar, Kenobi would naturally have no problem predicting Anakin's moves given he trained him.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I mean, my text didn't remotely convey that idea, but sure, Dooku isn't downing Maul quickly. They're both officially in the same heavy-weight class of fighting, after all.
being in the same tier doesn't imply near parity.

Kurk
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vos forcing Dooku to overextend is a showing of skill. That a stylistic edge granted him victory doesn't change he was skilled enough to fight evenly with someone who has only ever showcased superiority to Kenobi, even when Kenobi had backup.
Dooku didn't need either to make Kenobi look like a clown:
https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m25s Ditto what Ant posted.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Kurk
Ditto what Ant posted.
It's like I never said Vos>Dooku erm

Darth Thor
Originally posted by godemperortrump
You think he'd struggle against Maul??



Strange that Maul is the one who stuck out to you there, when he mentions Grievous as well.

godemperortrump
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Strange that Maul is the one who stuck out to you there, when he mentions Grievous as well.
Maul 'stuck out' to me because it's obvious Grievous wouldn't beat Dooku... Also the Maul vs Dooku battle intrigues me, I like to hear other's opinions.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.