The Mountain, The Hound and Jaime vs. Wolverine

KingD19

Originally posted by FrothByte
Eh, people seemingly aren't thinking straight. Bone claw Wolverine you say? He gets his head cut off.

Unless Wolverine has some feat that proves otherwise, his claws shouldn't even be able to penetrate the GOT team's armor. Tempered steel is a lot stronger than bone. Not only would his claws be unable to penetrate their armor, their swords should have no problem cutting through his claws.

And though I have often ridiculed GOT characters for having bad fight choreography, Wolverine is also a brawler, who has a nasty habit of running straight at the opponent and simply trying to tank whatever they throw at him. Even at his peak he was never really that skilled a fighter. This means that he'll get cut, stabbed and hacked. Now he might heal from stabs and cuts but he has no feats to prove he can heal from getting limbs completely hacked off. Heck, how will he heal from his head getting cut off?

Not only is he outnumbered and out-geared, he also has a massive reach disadvantage. How long are his claws in the movies, 1 foot? 1.5 feet? Longswords will be anywhere from 3-5 feet long.

You might be the one not thinking straight here. First, Sabretooth's much smaller claws casually shredded the hood of a car. All he did was put them on the metal and walk forward. He cut clean through to the other side. So there's a good chance with all his strength he can punch straight through the armor if nothing else. Also, iirc Mountain is the only one to wear a helmet, and it has plenty of opening for Logan to stab into. So he can headshot all of them easily. Or just use his super strength to toss them around.

Secondly, you know good and well Logan is a brawler because he can afford to be. He knows he has a healing factor + Adamantium. If he doesn't have them, he'll fight more carefully. However, he has shown on multiple occasions just how fast and skilled he is. His single fight with Shingen(claws vs two katana) puts him on a different skill/speed set than GoT. They wouldn't be able to touch him.
utFnkJFAExk

Josh_Alexander

FrothByte

Originally posted by KingD19
You might be the one not thinking straight here. First, Sabretooth's much smaller claws casually shredded the hood of a car. All he did was put them on the metal and walk forward. He cut clean through to the other side. So there's a good chance with all his strength he can punch straight through the armor if nothing else. Also, iirc Mountain is the only one to wear a helmet, and it has plenty of opening for Logan to stab into. So he can headshot all of them easily. Or just use his super strength to toss them around.

Secondly, you know good and well Logan is a brawler because he can afford to be. He knows he has a healing factor + Adamantium. If he doesn't have them, he'll fight more carefully. However, he has shown on multiple occasions just how fast and skilled he is. His single fight with Shingen(claws vs two katana) puts him on a different skill/speed set than GoT. They wouldn't be able to touch him.
utFnkJFAExk

I hope you're not serious with that car example. You do realize there's a HUUUGE difference between the aluminum and sheet metal used on a car's body compared with the tempered steel of a knight's armor right?

Wolverine's fight against Shingen is a bad example to use. For one thing, Wolverine barely dodged any of Shingen's blows. Majority he blocked with his claws... which is something he won't be able to do with bone claws against longswords. Secondly, Wolverine got hit multiple times in that fight, and actually wasn't able to land a single hit on Shingen up until the last surprise attack. That's not exactly a good show of skill is it? And that was only against one opponent, he's fighting 3 opponents here who'll have swords quite longer than a katana and who'll be decently protected against his claws.

Wolverine is just not skilled enough to easily do headshots. Shingen wasn't wearing a helmet too, Wolverine couldn't land a hit on his head.

Sable

Originally posted by KingD19
You might be the one not thinking straight here.

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Arachnid1

Psychotron

Wolverine has super strength though.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Psychotron
Wolverine has super strength though.

Strength won't really help you from getting cut up and your limbs chopped off.

Also, I know Wolverine is strong but I don't recall him displaying super strength. Could you mention the specific feats?

Raptor22

Originally posted by FrothByte
Strength won't really help you from getting cut up and your limbs chopped off.

Also, I know Wolverine is strong but I don't recall him displaying super strength. Could you mention the specific feats? just off the top of my head, he threw sabertooth on top that logging truck in origins.

Also sabertooth lifted one of those huge logs off Logan one handed with ease. Even though sabes was stronger than Logan, it wasn't a massive difference.

Psychotron

Originally posted by FrothByte
Strength won't really help you from getting cut up and your limbs chopped off.

Also, I know Wolverine is strong but I don't recall him displaying super strength. Could you mention the specific feats?

He's faster than any of these guys, and nothing short of a decap will really slow him down.

He's ragdolled some niggas around through the series. Even a dying OML was stronger than the average man, and X-24 had some blatant displays of super strength with that armored truck at the end.

Josh_Alexander

FrothByte

Originally posted by Psychotron
He's faster than any of these guys, and nothing short of a decap will really slow him down.

He's ragdolled some niggas around through the series. Even a dying OML was stronger than the average man, and X-24 had some blatant displays of super strength with that armored truck at the end.

Well X-24 is not Wolverine. He showed strength far more than what Wolverine has shown in the past. Wolverine is definitely stronger than the average man, stronger even than probably the strongest athlete. But I don't think he'd be in Captain America's league.

In any case, my main point stands, that his strength won't save him from getting dismembered. If he gets his claws cut off it will slow him down. You saw how much pain he was in when Creed broke his claws. Gets his hands or arms cut off will slow him down. Legs cut off will slow him down. A broken skull or a stab through the face will probably slow him down. Broken/cut spine will slow him down. I could go on...

relentless1

LOL even if they could ht Logan which they probably wouldn't his HF gives him an easy easy win

FrothByte

Lol. People thinking Wolverine is some kind of ninja. Yes he moves faster than the GOT guys but not by that much, and he's definitely not skilled enough to simply dodge around all the sword blows of 3 skilled swordsmen.

Even if he does, that still doesn't address the issue that his bone claws won't penetrare tempered plate armor.

omgchos

I mean he cant die but he can sure as hell get dismembered. Although gregor does have a penchant for killing someone and just leaving them there to get rezzed lol.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
Lol. People thinking Wolverine is some kind of ninja. Yes he moves faster than the GOT guys but not by that much, and he's definitely not skilled enough to simply dodge around all the sword blows of 3 skilled swordsmen.

Even if he does, that still doesn't address the issue that his bone claws won't penetrare tempered plate armor.

He is fighting 3 slower guys wearing full plate armor (which would make them even slower). The speed difference would be enormous (particularly movement speed, full plate armor tends to limit one's mobility by quite a bit).

Yes, he is a brawler, but he isn't stupid. He's not gonna charge in and keep trying to poke them with his bone claws if the bone claws aren't working.

In his fight with Creed, he was able to go toe to toe (strength to strength) against Creed (who is clearly superhuman) for a while, even threw him vertically over 10-15 feet onto some logs. He is clearly superhuman. Not Cap strong. But def quite above human.

Once you get someone in full plate on his back, it is very difficult for them to get back on their feet (takes a few very vulnerable seconds for you to get back up). It would just be a matter of simply stabbing them under the chin or thru the chinks in the armor (armpit). He might take a few glancing hits doing this, but I doubt they'd score a direct hit before he takes some one down. Dodge a sword swing, kick chest, watch one fall. Repeat on another while the other tries to get back up. Mount -> stab. Might take a hit from third. But 2 on 1 is very easy once he's gotten some distance and healed the damage.

Of course this is all speculative. We have no instances of him fighting armored opponents while he has still had his bone claws.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
He is fighting 3 slower guys wearing full plate armor (which would make them slower). The speed difference would be enormous (particularly movement speed, full plate armor tends to limit one's mobility by quite a bit).

Yes, he is a brawler, but he isn't stupid. He's not gonna charge in and keep trying to poke them with his bone claws if the bone claws aren't working.

In his fight with Creed, he was able to go toe to toe (strength to strength) against Creed (who is clearly superhuman) for a while, even threw him vertically over 10-15 feet onto some logs. He is clearly superhuman. Not Cap strong. But def quite above human.

Once you get someone in full plate on his back, it is very difficult for them to get back on their feet (takes a few very vulnerable seconds for you to get back up). It would just be a matter of simply stabbing them under the chin or thru the chinks in the armor (armpit). He might take a few glancing hits doing this, but I doubt they'd score a direct hit before he takes some one down. Dodge a sword swing, kick chest, watch one fall. Repeat on another while the other tries to get back up. Mount -> stab. Might take a hit from third. But 2 on 1 is very easy once he's gotten some distance and healed the damage.

Of course this is all speculative. We have no instances of him fighting armored opponents while he has still had his bone claws.

Normally I love reading your replies because I find you one of the most informed posters here. But you really need to read up on plate armor facts and myths. Majority of what you said are myths about knightly armor that have been debunked for decades now.

Your average soldier carries more weight with their gear than a knight does with his armor. Armor will not slow you down much, and it definitely will not slow your sword... which is the main point of attack that will be hitting Wolverine. That whole "can't get back up once you're on your back" is pure nonsense.

Shingen was not superhuman. Was not even a very big man. Wolverine was unable to overpower him.

If you can show me one, just ONE clip of Wolverine where he's ducking and dodging hits from a known skilled opponent then I'll entertain your theory that he'll only get hit with glancing hits. Because otherwise that's just plain wishful thinking.

It's also going to be very hard for him to mount a downed opponent when 2 others are swinging at his back.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
1) Normally I love reading your replies because I find you one of the most informed posters here. But you really need to read up on plate armor facts and myths. Majority of what you said are myths about knightly armor that have been debunked for decades now.

Your average soldier carries more weight with their gear than a knight does with his armor. Armor will not slow you down much, and it definitely will not slow your sword... which is the main point of attack that will be hitting Wolverine. That whole "can't get back up once you're on your back" is pure nonsense.

2) Shingen was not superhuman. Was not even a very big man. Wolverine was unable to overpower him.

3) If you can show me one, just ONE clip of Wolverine where he's ducking and dodging hits from a known skilled opponent then I'll entertain your theory that he'll only get hit with glancing hits. Because otherwise that's just plain wishful thinking.

4) It's also going to be very hard for him to mount a downed opponent when 2 others are swinging at his back.

1) Pls reread what I wrote. I never said you can't get back up. This is what I said:

Once you get someone in full plate on his back, it is very difficult for them to get back on their feet (takes a few very vulnerable seconds for you to get back up)

It takes a good number of seconds in the best scenarious where you aren't stunned or have the wind knocked from you after falling. Over 3 seconds if you begin on an ideal position flat on your back or stomach (Source: https://youtu.be/5hlIUrd7d1Q. See 1:09). This will not be the case in a combat scenario after a powerful kick sends you toppling down. And yes, from where I'm looking they look veryyyy vulnerable in this position.

Admittedly, my use of "very difficult" is misleading at best and completely wrong at worst. So I will retract that.

2) We don't ignore a character's other "feats" because he has a few low ones. Come on, man, let's not play the lowball game. In the same movie he was able to topple what looks like a multiton suit of power armor and wasn't overpowered (although he was at a disadvantage) by it even when iit was one arm vs one arm against the suit being in a higher position (thus it had leverage). This is Wolverine at his peak so we should use his peak "feats".

3) GoT aren't X-Men universe fast or skilled. Not even close to it. They are victims of their own realistic choreography. Relative to the worlds involved, they are slow and cumbersome compared to the very fast paced choreography used in the X-Men franchise. So you asking for Wolverine to duck and weave vs "skilled opponents (within his universe)" is a very apples to oranges comparison here.

The question should be: "was he able to keep up with the far faster and far more skilled (and oftentimes far stronger) opponents in the X-Men franchise?". Admittedly, his record isn't very good (he is hit far more often than not). But the fact that he isn't completely overwhelmed by their far superior (relative to GoT, especially these characters) speed/kill/strength, even managing to counter and block at times seems to indicate that he operates just slightly below such opponents.

Just because Batroc couldn't dodge many of Cap's hits, doesn't mean he can't dodge Bane's hits.

4) Not really. I can see it happening in one smooth motion (and I said, he'd topple 2 before attempting a mount -> stab). Mount -> stab -> roll wouldn't take more than a second or two IMO. Although he might take a few blows, I doubt that they would be dismembering/decap as long as they aren't he can keep on chugging.

Nibedicus

Also, bear in mind, I have not decided who wins yet. I am very much open to debating this and deciding after as it would be a refreshing change from the crazed nonsense that pops up in any debate where h1 is involved.

However, I disagree with the fact that Logan would fight like an idiot (repeatedly ineffectually stabbing at armored opponents when his claws would not work, soaking hits that would incapacitate him, not creative enough to change tactics when he is an extremely old war veteran).

Nibedicus

Also, has anyone ever seen the Hound wear full plate? AFAIK, I've only really seen him in some sort of splint mail (w/c is more vulnerable to thrusting). I know Jamie and the Mountain (even tho the Mountain wore splint in his battle with Oberyn, w/c is why the spear pierced it) wear plate mail but I don't think I've ever seen the Hound in it. Or a helmet for that matter. Has the Hound ever worn a helmet?

I gotta admit. Seems like a debate I can get excited about.

Darkstorm Zero

Sandor in a Hound Helmet -
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/24500000/1x01-Winter-Is-Coming-sandor-clegane-24503730-1280-720.jpg

And Sandor in King's Guard Armor -
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CXQ7sHswSU8/UKp2TTKykEI/AAAAAAAAAfU/fr5hWW6xARI/s1600/sansa.jpg

Just to help out, that is all smile

Nibedicus

There we go. Thanks! Been going thru GoT episodes and had a hard time finding em. In retrospect, maybe I shoulda started with simply googling it... Lol. I forgot about the dog helmet he wore early on. Good deal!

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Question for the OP:

Wonder why he wears splint mail most of the time? Since this is "peak", do we get him in his rarely used King's Guard gear or his usual splint mail? Does he get to wear his King's Guard plate? Does it come with a helmet or his splint mail + dog helmet?

Josh_Alexander

No ADAMANTIUM Wolverine is MUCH MORE VULNERABLE!

He is fighting against 3 good Swordsmen!

I'd say Mountain sacrifices himself by holding wolverine and the JAIME and SANDOR decapitate him. As easy as that.

Bone claws will have it difficult to penetrate Armor. That is a fact.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Also, bear in mind, I have not decided who wins yet. I am very much open to debating this and deciding after as it would be a refreshing change from the crazed nonsense that pops up in any debate where h1 is involved.

However, I disagree with the fact that Logan would fight like an idiot (repeatedly ineffectually stabbing at armored opponents when his claws would not work, soaking hits that would incapacitate him, not creative enough to change tactics when he is an extremely old war veteran).

When you're in a fight where your life is on the line, very rarely will you actually have time to think straight. This is why pretty much every martial art will train one move over and over again to commit them to muscle memory, because at the point of a fight majority of the time your body will move by instinct.

Wolverine will do as he normally does because that's what he knows how to do, what his body knows how to do. And even if he realizes that he can't win by fighting the same way... what exactly is he going to do? Run away? Because I don't recall him displaying the skill for a completely different fighting style. You don't all of a sudden decide, in the middle of a fight, that you're going to adapt a fighting style you've never done before and expect to be good at it.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
When you're in a fight where your life is on the line, very rarely will you actually have time to think straight. This is why pretty much every martial art will train one move over and over again to commit them to muscle memory, because at the point of a fight majority of the time your body will move by instinct.

Wolverine will do as he normally does because that's what he knows how to do, what his body knows how to do. And even if he realizes that he can't win by fighting the same way... what exactly is he going to do? Run away? Because I don't recall him displaying the skill for a completely different fighting style. You don't all of a sudden decide, in the middle of a fight, that you're going to adapt a fighting style you've never done before and expect to be good at it.

I disagree. More intelligent and more experienced combatants understand that one needs to adapt to a situation and not the other way around. Unless you think ppl just shoot ar each other in a straight line and things like flanking don't happen mid-battle. I mean ppl adapting to their current combat situation happens all the time. I don't get what you are trying to say here.

Wolverine will, of course, attempt to stab them with his claws, but it is in the how he achieves this that he will likely adapt into the fight. Once their armor deflects his first few stabs and slashes, do you really think he will keep trying even when he knows it's not gonna work? Wouldn't YOU change your tactics if you know your basic attack isn't working?

His superior speed and mobility gives him the initiative and the ability to dictate the pace of the fight. It also allows him to keep his distance so he can either heal up when he takes some damage or to rethink his strategy.

There are many options open to him. From taking them down and doing a mount + stab to letting them swing and miss (or at least not hit him directly enough that he can still heal thru) while keeping them off balance via kicks and body shoves until they exhaust themselves.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Pls reread what I wrote. I never said you can't get back up. This is what I said:

Once you get someone in full plate on his back, it is very difficult for them to get back on their feet (takes a few very vulnerable seconds for you to get back up)

It takes a good number of seconds in the best scenarious where you aren't stunned or have the wind knocked from you after falling. Over 3 seconds if you begin on an ideal position flat on your back or stomach (Source: https://youtu.be/5hlIUrd7d1Q. See 1:09). This will not be the case in a combat scenario after a powerful kick sends you toppling down. And yes, from where I'm looking they look veryyyy vulnerable in this position.

Admittedly, my use of "very difficult" is misleading at best and completely wrong at worst. So I will retract that.

2) We don't ignore a character's other "feats" because he has a few low ones. Come on, man, let's not play the lowball game. In the same movie he was able to topple what looks like a multiton suit of power armor and wasn't overpowered (although he was at a disadvantage) by it even when iit was one arm vs one arm against the suit being in a higher position (thus it had leverage). This is Wolverine at his peak so we should use his peak "feats".

3) GoT aren't X-Men universe fast or skilled. Not even close to it. They are victims of their own realistic choreography. Relative to the worlds involved, they are slow and cumbersome compared to the very fast paced choreography used in the X-Men franchise. So you asking for Wolverine to duck and weave vs "skilled opponents (within his universe)" is a very apples to oranges comparison here.

The question should be: "was he able to keep up with the far faster and far more skilled (and oftentimes far stronger) opponents in the X-Men franchise?". Admittedly, his record isn't very good (he is hit far more often than not). But the fact that he isn't completely overwhelmed by their far superior (relative to GoT, especially these characters) speed/kill/strength, even managing to counter and block at times seems to indicate that he operates just slightly below such opponents.

Just because Batroc couldn't dodge many of Cap's hits, doesn't mean he can't dodge Bane's hits.

4) Not really. I can see it happening in one smooth motion (and I said, he'd topple 2 before attempting a mount -> stab). Mount -> stab -> roll wouldn't take more than a second or two IMO. Although he might take a few blows, I doubt that they would be dismembering/decap as long as they aren't he can keep on chugging.

1. I disagree that knights have a "very difficult" time getting up after getting knocked on their backs. Only a complete idiot would go to war wearing something that would not enable them to get back up easily after getting knocked down. I've personally seen HEMA fighters in full armor spar, and it certainly doesn't take them 3 seconds to get back up. Try 1 full second. And even if it did take that long, it doesn't mean they can't attack from their backs. I haven't watched your video yet since Youtube is blocked at work, but I will say that there are so many false vids out their regarding plate armor and I can easily find another video showing a man easily getting up with plate armor on.

2. I am not only looking at Logan's "low end feats". I'm looking at his average showings. It would be silly to focus only on his high end feats and ignore his consistent, average showings. Fact is, Logan has never been showcased as any stronger than your usual male action hero. Majority of action heroes will perform feats that in real life would be considered superhuman, but in the movieverse will be accepted as him not being superhuman. Take Baleman for example and his ability to hold a 200 pound man with one arm at a difficult angle. That would be a superhuman feat in real life, but we never considered Baleman to have superhuman strength.

Bottom line is, Wolverine might have a few instances where he seems to have some superhuman strength, but by and large he has not been portrayed as such. Had he been as strong as you say he is he should have been sending people flying left and right during his fight scenes.

3. First of all, GoT fight scenes aren't realistic at all. In real life, armored people can move a lot faster and longswords can be wielded at least twice as fast and a lot more gracefully.

As for Wolverine being faster, yes I agree with that. But I don't think that he so much faster that he can easily weave in and out of their attacks. Being able to duck and dodge around attacks isn't about fast motion speed, it's about skill and fast reflexes. And unfortunately, Wolverine has no feats to show that he has the skill or the reflexes to duck around hits like you're saying he would. You can't all of a sudden attribute a skill to someone who has zero feats to support it. You know the rule here in MvF, either they have feats to back it up or it doesn't count.

4. You could see it play in your mind all you want. But if you want your scenario to carry any weight, you'll need to support it with actual feats of Wolverine ducking around 3 longswords without getting hit, closing the distance, kicking someone in armor so hard that they fall down, incapacitate the other two still without getting hit, then mounting one of the fallen knights and finding a weak spot in his armor, stabbing him, all before one of the other knights can hack him in the neck.

That's a lot of assumptions on your part to give Wolverine the win.

Me on the other hand, make no assumptions. I base it from how Wolverine normally fights, which is to maybe duck 1 or 2 blows, block some blows, and pretty much get hit by the rest. I base it from how the GOT knights fight, which is to hack and slash with enough force to easily severe muscle and bone, block majority of attacks and almost never dodge. I base it from common knowledge that tempered steel is far stronger than bone, that longswords will have a huge reach advantage over Logan's claws, and that adjusting and creating a new fighting style is not as simple as willing it to happen.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. I disagree that knights have a "very difficult" time getting up after getting knocked on their backs. Only a complete idiot would go to war wearing something that would not enable them to get back up easily after getting knocked down. I've personally seen HEMA fighters in full armor spar, and it certainly doesn't take them 3 seconds to get back up. Try 1 full second. And even if it did take that long, it doesn't mean they can't attack from their backs. I haven't watched your video yet since Youtube is blocked at work, but I will say that there are so many false vids out their regarding plate armor and I can easily find another video showing a man easily getting up with plate armor on.

2. I am not only looking at Logan's "low end feats". I'm looking at his average showings. It would be silly to focus only on his high end feats and ignore his consistent, average showings. Fact is, Logan has never been showcased as any stronger than your usual male action hero. Majority of action heroes will perform feats that in real life would be considered superhuman, but in the movieverse will be accepted as him not being superhuman. Take Baleman for example and his ability to hold a 200 pound man with one arm at a difficult angle. That would be a superhuman feat in real life, but we never considered Baleman to have superhuman strength.

Bottom line is, Wolverine might have a few instances where he seems to have some superhuman strength, but by and large he has not been portrayed as such. Had he been as strong as you say he is he should have been sending people flying left and right during his fight scenes.

3. First of all, GoT fight scenes aren't realistic at all. In real life, armored people can move a lot faster and longswords can be wielded at least twice as fast and a lot more gracefully.

As for Wolverine being faster, yes I agree with that. But I don't think that he so much faster that he can easily weave in and out of their attacks. Being able to duck and dodge around attacks isn't about fast motion speed, it's about skill and fast reflexes. And unfortunately, Wolverine has no feats to show that he has the skill or the reflexes to duck around hits like you're saying he would. You can't all of a sudden attribute a skill to someone who has zero feats to support it. You know the rule here in MvF, either they have feats to back it up or it doesn't count.

4. You could see it play in your mind all you want. But if you want your scenario to carry any weight, you'll need to support it with actual feats of Wolverine ducking around 3 longswords without getting hit, closing the distance, kicking someone in armor so hard that they fall down, incapacitate the other two still without getting hit, then mounting one of the fallen knights and finding a weak spot in his armor, stabbing him, all before one of the other knights can hack him in the neck.

That's a lot of assumptions on your part to give Wolverine the win.

Me on the other hand, make no assumptions. I base it from how Wolverine normally fights, which is to maybe duck 1 or 2 blows, block some blows, and pretty much get hit by the rest. I base it from how the GOT knights fight, which is to hack and slash with enough force to easily severe muscle and bone, block majority of attacks and almost never dodge. I base it from common knowledge that tempered steel is far stronger than bone, that longswords will have a huge reach advantage over Logan's claws, and that adjusting and creating a new fighting style is not as simple as willing it to happen.

1) I'll need to see someone in full plate mail getting up within one second. And no, I don't mean getting up after a roll, I mean getting up after being toppled onto his back (or at the very least, starting from a flat-back position). The only vids I found in youtube took them a full 3 seconds to do so. And I've already retracted the "very difficult" part in my post above (call it a brain fart on my part).

2) There are multiple instances where Wolverine manages to throw full sized men (200 lbs or so) 5-10 feet or so in the air (top of my mind, X-men Origins and X-Men 2, I think there's an instance in Logan but I can't remember where). Or fighting against opponents that can toss him 10-20 feet away or those shown to be obviously superhuman and resisting them strength to strength. Do we ignore these "feats" now? How does that work? Do we go by "portrayal" which can be subjective. How he is portrayed to you, is different to how he is portrayed to me. We need to be objective about what Wolverine can do. He has strength "feats" that put him easily above human, so he is. I mean, these are not one ofs. There are multiple instances of him demonstrating superhuman strength, why ignore them for the sake of a subjective metric?

3) So you're saying that GoT fighting are not realistic but are, in fact, slower and less graceful and skillful than real life? How does that help your argument, tho? Wouldn't that mean GoT characters are just slow even compared to RL humans while X-Men franchise characters are faster than RL humans so that a fight between characters from a slower universe vs a faster universe would mean that the faster universe would be faster?

4) You are asking for proof that cannot possibly exist. He has never fought ppl with longswords and platemail so you asking for proof of him fighting ppl in longswords is kinda strange.

But if it is "feats" regarding his ability to dodge/weave against slower/less skilled opponents and not get hit, the willingness and ability to fight defensively, to change tactics on the fly when things aren't working for him, and the intelligence and experience to figure out winning tactics on the fly, here are a few:

As for "feats" let me showcase a few:

Dodging and weaving and not getting hit?

https://youtu.be/FLnIFCu_q78

The Wolverine, opening fight (0:00-1:23) He fought against multiple (less skilled opponents than him) armed with guns and long knives in fast paced combat. Not one scored a single hit on him. Even used an opponent as a human shield to avoid gunfire. He took them out fast and efficiently.

On the train fight (1:24+). Close quarters, limited space to move. Only got hit with 2 tackles (as he had nowhere to dodge), 1 punch and a gunshot. Dodged multiple knife attacks.

Vs. Barakapool. First few seconds. Dodged, blocked and blocked (from a farrrrrrrrrr faster opponent than GoT characters who also has the reach advantage) and scored the first hit.

Fighting defensively?

X-Men: Last stand.

https://youtu.be/pqkq3aYL0dY

Forest battle. Faced with the bone spike guy and his buddies, he had to retreat and use the trees for cover. Uses trees to ambush opponents. Soon as Bone Spike guy charged him, he uses his claws to deflect thrown bone spikes and closed distance quickly to take down opponent.

Shifting strategies?

Xmen 2. When Lady DS had him outclassed and stabbing the crap out of him, even in intense pain he had the presence of mind to shift tactics (knowing his claws were ineffective) and use the molten adamantium to take her out.

Xmen Origins. Realized going h2h with Blob wasn't gonna work. Figured it out quickly that his adamantium would be the only thing that would hurt Blob sans his claws. Uses elbows to win.

Tactics?

Vs. Barakapool. Understands that Barakapool had the advantage in speed. Climbs cooling tower to get high ground and limit his opponent's mobility (due to narrow spaces involved). Granted it backfired when Bpool teleported, but sound tactic nonetheless.

The above should be proof enough than Wolverine isn't some mindless brawler. There is a tactical acumen (even under extreme stress) that he posseses that tells us that he can think on his feet and at least the minimum amount of brain power and speed/skill needed to make him avoid direct hits from powerful weapons that would incapacitate him as well as make him shift tactics when current methods are not working.

As this is a hypothetical fight, we are going to make assumptions, but breaking it down to it's basest form: You are assuming he's gonna fight stupid, I'm assuming he's not.

FrothByte

^ I'll get back to you once I've had a chance to watch those vids.

Nibedicus

I mean here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2NHSDL9164

Wolverine manages to fight at least a dozen faster opponents and IMO more skilled opponents than the GoT characters, ducking, dodging and blocking in the slippery snow. Only getting hit a few times (mostly by the lead ninja). Here he demonstrates skill, speed and the ability to battle multiple opponents (faster than GoT) opponents armed with swords who prepped before the fight.

@0:50-0:54, he outfights 2 ninjas with swords, neither lands a single hit on him.
@0:55-1:00, lead ninja scores 2 hits.
@1:20-1:25, he again outfights 2 skilled opponents with swords, neither lands a single blow before he takes them out.
@1:27, he gets hit by a motorcycle as he was dispatching his 2 opponents.
@132, rolls and dodges under a kusarigama. Even tho he was just knocked off balance.
@1:35, he gets surrounded by at least 5-6 opponents (all faster than GoT characters). They attack him at once and a backhand from him sends one spinning in the air.
@1:41, he gets hit by a motocycle attack from behind again which tosses him several feet in the air.
@1:48, he gets hit by a net from a motorcycle and get dragged.
@2:26, one hand tosses a ninja at least 10-15 feet (Strength showing). Who get turned to cole slaw when he lands in front of a snow thrower (ouch).
@2:40, nonchalantly (with no visible effort) picks up a dirt bike (which would weight like 200-250 lbs?) and slams it into a biker's face WWE steel chair style (Strength showing).

Let it be noted that he fought at least a dozen+ opponents armed with swords and the only time he got hit by a sword throughout the video was by the lead ninja at the start.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I mean here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2NHSDL9164

Wolverine manages to fight at least a dozen faster opponents and IMO more skilled opponents than the GoT characters, ducking, dodging and blocking in the slippery snow. Only getting hit a few times (mostly by the lead ninja). Here he demonstrates skill, speed and the ability to battle multiple opponents (faster than GoT) opponents armed with swords who prepped before the fight.

@0:50-0:54, he outfights 2 ninjas with swords, neither lands a single hit on him.
@0:55-1:00, lead ninja scores 2 hits.
@1:20-1:25, he again outfights 2 skilled opponents with swords, neither lands a single blow before he takes them out.
@1:27, he gets hit by a motorcycle as he was dispatching his 2 opponents.
@132, rolls and dodges under a kusarigama. Even tho he was just knocked off balance.
@1:35, he gets surrounded by at least 5-6 opponents (all faster than GoT characters). They attack him at once and a backhand from him sends one spinning in the air.
@1:41, he gets hit by a motocycle attack from behind again which tosses him several feet in the air.
@1:48, he gets hit by a net from a motorcycle and get dragged.
@2:26, one hand tosses a ninja at least 10-15 feet (Strength showing). Who get turned to cole slaw when he lands in front of a snow thrower (ouch).
@2:40, nonchalantly (with no visible effort) picks up a dirt bike (which would weight like 200-250 lbs?) and slams it into a biker's face WWE steel chair style (Strength showing).

Let it be noted that he fought at least a dozen+ opponents armed with swords and the only time he got hit by a sword throughout the fight was by the lead ninja at the start.

He got hit several times. And he had adamantium which HELPS HIM A LOT.

One sword slice from a knight sword and his skeleton will break making him harder and longer to regenerate.

Adamtium made him invulnerable to bone fractures and therefore more of a juggernut.

This time Wolverine has bone skeleton. He is A LOT more vulnerable.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He got hit several times. And he had adamantium which HELPS HIM A LOT.

One sword slice from a knight sword and his skeleton will break making him harder and longer to regenerate.

Adamtium made him invulnerable to bone fractures and therefore more of a juggernut.

This time Wolverine has bone skeleton. He is A LOT more vulnerable.

Time stamp the hits then pls.

Only time he got hit by a sword in the above video was by the lead ninja (stab and a slash to the face) at the beginning of the video.

He got hit by 2 bikes and a net as far as I see.

You mean one SOLID hit from a slow-ass knight sword (when he couldn't get hit by fast moving ninja blades from multiple angles)?

KingD19

Josh, you're still under the assumption Logan will get hit.

Mountain for one is horrendously slow. Much slower than even Blob. Hound's not much faster. And Jaime is the fastest, but still a turtle compared to anyone Logan has fought. And with no Adamantium, he'll know to dodge. And it won't be hard if you compare fight scenes.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I mean here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2NHSDL9164

Wolverine manages to fight at least a dozen faster opponents and IMO more skilled opponents than the GoT characters, ducking, dodging and blocking in the slippery snow. Only getting hit a few times (mostly by the lead ninja). Here he demonstrates skill, speed and the ability to battle multiple opponents (faster than GoT) opponents armed with swords who prepped before the fight.

@0:50-0:54, he outfights 2 ninjas with swords, neither lands a single hit on him.
@0:55-1:00, lead ninja scores 2 hits.
@1:20-1:25, he again outfights 2 skilled opponents with swords, neither lands a single blow before he takes them out.
@1:27, he gets hit by a motorcycle as he was dispatching his 2 opponents.
@132, rolls and dodges under a kusarigama. Even tho he was just knocked off balance.
@1:35, he gets surrounded by at least 5-6 opponents (all faster than GoT characters). They attack him at once and a backhand from him sends one spinning in the air.
@1:41, he gets hit by a motocycle attack from behind again which tosses him several feet in the air.
@1:48, he gets hit by a net from a motorcycle and get dragged.
@2:26, one hand tosses a ninja at least 10-15 feet (Strength showing). Who get turned to cole slaw when he lands in front of a snow thrower (ouch).
@2:40, nonchalantly (with no visible effort) picks up a dirt bike (which would weight like 200-250 lbs?) and slams it into a biker's face WWE steel chair style (Strength showing).

Let it be noted that he fought at least a dozen+ opponents armed with swords and the only time he got hit by a sword throughout the video was by the lead ninja at the start.

I haven't watched these but just want to make a few notes:

1. Is Wolverine blocking any hits on those scenes? Because he won't be able to block hits in this fight if he doesn't want his limbs or claws cut off. And being able to block hits is a big factor in being able to dodge others. Removing the ability to block something severely hampers your ability to dodge others.

2. Are these feats against fodder? Because the 3 knights in this fight are not fodder, and even the characters with the worst fight choreographies in Hollywood still easily steamroll through fodder *cough*baleman*cough. Not exactly a strong argument if you're using fodder. Give me a fight against a properly skilled opponent where Wolverine was ducking and dodging without getting hit and with minimal blocking of his claws.

3. I still don't see any convincing argument for how Wolverine's claws can do significant damage to armored opponents while at the same time completely avoiding any significant hit.

FrothByte

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
I haven't watched these but just want to make a few notes:

1. Is Wolverine blocking any hits on those scenes? Because he won't be able to block hits in this fight if he doesn't want his limbs or claws cut off. And being able to block hits is a big factor in being able to dodge others. Removing the ability to block something severely hampers your ability to dodge others.

2. Are these feats against fodder? Because the 3 knights in this fight are not fodder, and even the characters with the worst fight choreographies in Hollywood still easily steamroll through fodder *cough*baleman*cough. Not exactly a strong argument if you're using fodder. Give me a fight against a properly skilled opponent where Wolverine was ducking and dodging without getting hit and with minimal blocking of his claws.

3. I still don't see any convincing argument for how Wolverine's claws can do significant damage to armored opponents while at the same time completely avoiding any significant hit.

1. He dodged some, he blocked some. He rolled under some. He deflected some. Few times he stepped into the swing and blocked the arm (so he can deliver a counter), not the sword.

That line of logic is irrelevant, tho. It shows that he can (and would) dodge/block/deflect/defend when needed. Far faster attacks from multiple angles. Level of difficulty becomes the point. Slow long swords you can see coming <<< fast short swords from multiple angles. One is simply far more difficult to defend against than the other.

2. Fodder is irrelevant. "Feats"/showings > role. They at the very least shown to be fast opponents, they are portrayed to be skilled. That is what matters. We don't suddenly think Tyrion is gonna be taking out Ultron bots just because they are fodder.

3. I already posted it above. Let me repost:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
His superior speed and mobility gives him the initiative and the ability to dictate the pace of the fight. It also allows him to keep his distance so he can either heal up when he takes some damage or to rethink his strategy.

There are many options open to him. From taking them down and doing a mount + stab to letting them swing and miss (or at least not hit him directly enough that he can still heal thru) while keeping them off balance via kicks and body shoves until they exhaust themselves.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
Dude, it's simple. If you think Wolverine is skilled enough to duck and dodge around every attack, then post a feat of him doing so. Yeah, GOT fighters are slow, but there are 3 of them attacking at the same time.

I thought I just posted it?

Wolverine fighting off multiple fast and skilled opponents from multiple angles armed with swords.

You are setting an impossibly high standard for proof here. I mean if you want us to post him fighting armored NAMED opponents that use longswords that fight like the GoT characters, it's just not gonna happen.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by KingD19
Josh, you're still under the assumption Logan will get hit.

Mountain for one is horrendously slow. Much slower than even Blob. Hound's not much faster. And Jaime is the fastest, but still a turtle compared to anyone Logan has fought. And with no Adamantium, he'll know to dodge. And it won't be hard if you compare fight scenes.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Time stamp the hits then pls.

Only time he got hit by a sword in the above video was by the lead ninja (stab and a slash to the face) at the beginning of the video.

He got hit by 2 bikes and a net as far as I see.

You mean one SOLID hit from a slow-ass knight sword (when he couldn't get hit by fast moving ninja blades from multiple angles)?

First of all there is an ENORMOUS Flaw in your statement.

One FrothBite already pointed out nevertheless i still have to reply so here i go.

Wolverine was blocking the katanas with his ADAMANTIUM CLAWS!

In this fight he has BONE CLAWS, meaning he wont be able to block anything. If he does, his claws get BROKEN.

Again Wolverine loses this one, he is going agaisnt three, and his claws arent reliable for the job.

KingD19

Post the knights fighting a super strong and highly agile mutant with claws, healing powers and several decades of combat experience(he was in every American War up to WW2).

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by KingD19
Post the knights fighting a super strong and highly agile mutant with claws, healing powers and several decades of combat experience(he was in every American War up to WW2).

Bone breaks to metal. Period.

He is going against three! He will get several bone fractures due to the swords! Regeneration takes longer for bone! Much longer.

Wolverine has been knocked too!

His Adamantium is what makes Wolverine so terrible, in this case he loses one of his most fearsome abilities.

He loses here.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all there is an ENORMOUS Flaw in your statement.

One FrothBite already pointed out nevertheless i still have to reply so here i go.

Wolverine was blocking the katanas with his ADAMANTIUM CLAWS!

In this fight he has BONE CLAWS, meaning he wont be able to block anything. If he does, his claws get BROKEN.

Again Wolverine loses this one, he is going agaisnt three, and his claws arent reliable for the job.

Sooo, no timestamps of him getting hit "several" times (other than the ones I posted?) like you claimed? Hm.

It establishes that Wolverine is not just a brawler, that he can defend when needed and has defensive moves that he can use against less skilled opponents.

It also shows that he has a level of super strength along with his speed, skills and regen.

He can dodge backwards away from a swing or roll under (he was shown capable of this in the video above) and he can always (like he did a few times in the video I linked) step into the swing and catch the farrrr slower GoT sword arm to deliver a counter (stab under the neck, possibly). He can also do place the unfortunate enemy between him and his other opponents, using him as a human shield (shown capable and willing to do so in the previous video I posted in one of my above replies) after a throat stab.

Edit. Wolverine also was shown to have a penchant for ducking under a swing and then attacking his opponent's legs/heel to throw them into the ground (He did so against at least 3 opponents in the early part of the movie). I can also see this happening against the GoT opponents.

Nibedicus

Ok, looking at the King's guard plate armor:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/d4/3d/aed43dd051d74fab1497f2eff8756579.jpg

It looks like the chest is fully plate but the arms and legs don't seem to be. I don't even see chainmail there. Which he kinda did to a few of his opponents in the Wolverine.

What's to stop Wolverine from stabbing them in the arms or legs?

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. He dodged some, he blocked some. He rolled under some. He deflected some. Few times he stepped into the swing and blocked the arm (so he can deliver a counter), not the sword.

That line of logic is irrelevant, tho. It shows that he can (and would) dodge/block/deflect/defend when needed. Far faster attacks from multiple angles. Level of difficulty becomes the point. Slow long swords you can see coming <<< fast short swords from multiple angles. One is simply far more difficult to defend against than the other.

2. Fodder is irrelevant. "Feats"/showings > role. They at the very least shown to be fast opponents, they are portrayed to be skilled. That is what matters. We don't suddenly think Tyrion is gonna be taking out Ultron bots just because they are fodder.

3. I already posted it above. Let me repost:

So in short, the only proof you have are vids of Wolverine dodging some hits, blocking some hits, then tanking the others. Right?

Let me repeat something to you that I've been saying from the start: He tries to block hits here, he'll get his claws or arms cut off.

If you want to claim that Wolverine can completely duck and dodge all hits thrown his way then that's the kind of feat that you need to provide. Not some vid where he dodges some and then blocks and tanks the rest. Does this seem like an impossible request? Of course it is. You know why? Because Wolverine just does not fight like that. He has never needed to do so due to his healing powers which means he would have never needed to develop the necessary speed and skill do so.

What you are saying is that Wolverine will be able, without any prior training or feat or experience, to automatically develop a new fighting style with a new set of skills. Basically what you're asking is for Wolverine to fight like a completely different person.

Have you ever tried sparring with swords? Because I have. And for some reason you keep neglecting the reach the longswords will give the knights. A slow-ish longsword with a long reach is far harder to deal with than a fast short sword. A knife is ridiculously fast. Do you think a knife fighter has the advantage against someone with a longsword just because it's faster?

Wolverine will need to close the distance against 3 knights with longer weapons, manage to hit weak spots in their armor strong enough to incapacitate them, and do all that without taking a serious hit. Wolverine maybe faster than them individually but he just isn't that fast nor is he that skilled.

Raptor22

Have any of the GoT guys actually ever lopped a limb or head off? I'm talking mid combat, not like Ned beheading someone he sentenced to death, or Jamie getting held down and getting his hand chopped off.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. So in short, the only proof you have are vids of Wolverine dodging some hits, blocking some hits, then tanking the others. Right?

Let me repeat something to you that I've been saying from the start: He tries to block hits here, he'll get his claws or arms cut off.

2. If you want to claim that Wolverine can completely duck and dodge all hits thrown his way then that's the kind of feat that you need to provide. Not some vid where he dodges some and then blocks and tanks the rest. Does this seem like an impossible request? Of course it is. You know why? Because Wolverine just does not fight like that. He has never needed to do so due to his healing powers which means he would have never needed to develop the necessary speed and skill do so.

3. What you are saying is that Wolverine will be able, without any prior training or feat or experience, to automatically develop a new fighting style with a new set of skills. Basically what you're asking is for Wolverine to fight like a completely different person.

4. Have you ever tried sparring with swords? Because I have. And for some reason you keep neglecting the reach the longswords will give the knights. A slow-ish longsword with a long reach is far harder to deal with than a fast short sword. A knife is ridiculously fast. Do you think a knife fighter has the advantage against someone with a longsword just because it's faster?

Wolverine will need to close the distance against 3 knights with longer weapons, manage to hit weak spots in their armor strong enough to incapacitate them, and do all that without taking a serious hit.

5. Wolverine maybe faster than them individually but he just isn't that fast nor is he that skilled.

1. He dodges attacks that are shown to be far faster than GoT swords attacks. That's all I need. He doesn't need to block slow ass sword strikes as he can simply either dodge the attack, duck under them to attack the legs or catch the arm on the downswing (w/c he's done on screen). All of which he has already been shown to do vs sword users. What else do I need?

He doesn't need to be shown to do it all the time. He just needs to be able to do it. You don't have to accept it, but the evidence is there.

2. The video I showed had him tanking zero sword hits from anyone other than the lead ninja. He defended against every sword attack thrown his way from the rest. It shows that he can fight defensively when needed.

He blocked the attacks because he can. Doesn't mean he can't dodge them if he can't block. Especially when he's shown to be able to do so on other occasions. What is so hard to understand here?

Again, he's done all this successfully against faster attacks.

3. What new fighting style? Being able to dodge/duck against sword attacks? He's done that. Attack vulnerable legs/arms? Done that, too. Topple his opponents? Done that as well.

So what new fighting style are you talking about here?

4. I've trained in Arnis (you know it more as Kali around the US) for 2 years, so I've held and sparred with and against weapons, yes. What's your point?

Reach is a huge advantage, sure. But it's not as if it can't be circumvented. And it's not as if we haven't seen Wolverine circumvent it (without resorting to blocking). It's on screen, thus he can do it. He's done it from guns to swords to long daggers. Again, on screen, thus he can do it.

And why are you thinking he can't parry/block sword strikes at all? Leveraged, powerful slashes would no doubt cut his claws, sure. But he can dodge, duck or roll away from those. But short/weaker thrusts or slashes can be deflected by his claws (it'll maybe chip the claws, sure but he has 3 per hand and they grow back).

And daggers vs longsword isn't as clear cut as you think:

https://youtu.be/CFqXkYdAFXs

or this:

https://youtu.be/QvZQR_qIGvg

Those dual daggers would work like Wolverine's dual bone claws.

And he doesn't need to incapacitate them in one hit. He can wound them and simply let them bleed out. I mean a simple thigh or bicep stab is enough to end the fight for any of them (King's Guard armor have pretty open leg/bicep protection) as they would practically be ineffective at that point. While they would need a full on direct center mass hit or decap to stop Wolverine. Any other blow would be meaningless as he'd just need to step back to heal. I mean you've fought with a sword before, how hard is it to land a direct clean full leverage center mass hit when your opponent is so much faster than you?

This comes down to this: Will someone who is faster, possibly stronger and clearly more skillful opponent with shorter weapons who only needs to do (minor damage to eventually win) beat 3 slower, less skilled opponents who would need to score a direct clean hit to win?

And it's not as if the armor makes them immune to attack, as per the pic I posted, it doesn't look like their arms and legs are armored. As per the vids I showed, Wolverine attacking the legs is actually kinda common throughout the movie.

5. I really, really disagree here. Altho, our perception of his skill level is subjective. Wolverine has shown too many instances of how skilled and agile he is and I've already posted video evidence. Up to you if you ignore them.

I mean look at how slow and lumbering this is:

https://youtu.be/tDjq-i0jFDw

0:15-0:39

You seriously think either of them would score a direct hit on Wolverine?

omgchos

Originally posted by Raptor22
Have any of the GoT guys actually ever lopped a limb or head off? I'm talking mid combat, not like Ned beheading someone he sentenced to death, or Jamie getting held down and getting his hand chopped off.

Gregor took most of a horses head off. But by and large the show didnt how many actual in the moment dismemberment that i can think of. Save Jaime getting his hand taken off, which again wasnt in combat.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by omgchos
Gregor took most of a horses head off. But by and large the show didnt how many actual in the moment dismemberment that i can think of. Save Jaime getting his hand taken off, which again wasnt in combat.

The Hound cut someone in half at the Battle of Black Water. But it was a full on power downward slash while his opponent just stood there and looked at him, hands down. Which took almost 2 seconds to do.

https://youtu.be/tDjq-i0jFDw

(0:35-0:37)

I mean look at that, one would def see that coming.

Darkstorm Zero

ii6XQkiVa2o

omgchos

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The Hound cut someone in half at the Battle of Black Water. But it was a full on power downward slash while his opponent just stood there and looked at him, hands down. Which took almost 2 seconds to do.

https://youtu.be/tDjq-i0jFDw

(0:35-0:37)

I mean look at that, one would def see that coming.
Cant blame sandor for bad editing, lol.

Josh_Alexander

As much as i like Wolverine supporting him here would be following fanatism

So, here are my reasons as to why Wolverine Loses this match:

*Wolverine's advantages:
-Regeneration
-Speed

*Wolverine's Disadvantages:
-He is OUTNUMBERED
-His skeleton is fragile
-His claws are not reliable
-His enemies are well armored
-His enemies have decent combat skills.

I am a fan of Wolverine, but he loses this one! One swing from Ser Gregor's sword and those claws along with his head will split OPEN!

He is outnumbered, and he has NO ADAMANTIUM.

Team wins this.

Nibedicus

See parenthesis for reply.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As much as i like Wolverine supporting him here would be following fanatism

So, here are my reasons as to why Wolverine Loses this match:

*Wolverine's advantages:
-Regeneration
-Speed

*Wolverine's Disadvantages:
-He is OUTNUMBERED (irrelevant, he's fought against more opponents before)
-His skeleton is fragile (it's not fragile, lol. he can pierce clean thru a person's shoulder with those claws and he managed to get squashed by 1k lbs logs and get thrown into a moving loaded truck without any signs of broken bones, pre-adamantium)
-His claws are not reliable (see above)
-His enemies are well armored (not in the arms and legs)
-His enemies have decent combat skills. (not compared to X-Men universe characters. And according to Froth, GoT swordsmanship is even slower than RL swordsmanship).

I am a fan of Wolverine, but he loses this one! One swing from Ser Gregor's sword and those claws along with his head will split OPEN! (Nope. They have to hit him first. Meaning he gotta stand still for their slow-ass sword swings.)

He is outnumbered, and he has NO ADAMANTIUM. (True, but the quality of his opponents in this fight are nowhere near the level of opponent he's faced before).

Team wins this. (I am not convinced)

Anyway, waiting on Froth's reply. Keeping my mind open, but so far nothing has convinced me that the team wins.

Darkstorm Zero

Gimme a sec, Image bombs incoming...

The mountain: https://i0.wp.com/www.asoiaf-theories.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/the-mountain-armor.png
https://www.hypable.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Game-of-Thrones-Gregor-Clegane.png
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-icagCTKeveY/V1gfIXlNfJI/AAAAAAAAc1M/_hL9wU17u1cT-5iUxb5p8hFPOTIkLS-FwCLcB/s1600/got-6x08.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PvCyotQ.jpg

Darkstorm Zero

The Hound: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/17/59/e2175936f1527aa0534475ee0e2d639b--armour-viking.jpg
http://s6.postimg.org/o0nkm69k1/tumblr_ljyvth_OMXg1qiecveo1_1280.png
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/04/51/00/045100c79a1bf0fa07aad29d9f4b4863--black-horses-sansa-stark.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bVytxe92wkw/VrCc7h9rM7I/AAAAAAAAP6o/iCmVLkteiSc/s1600/fire-and-blood-04-1920.jpg

Darkstorm Zero

The Kingslayer: https://i.pinimg.com/474x/97/35/28/973528166f9a15edab4f35565acd4916--medieval-armor-medieval-costume.jpg
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--f1E-M0xF--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/17guwb3ax19ovjpg.jpg

Darkstorm Zero

The Wolverine: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/02/3d/a2/023da2bb0b912af2210bc29cd7380fb6--wolverine-origins-hugh-jackman.jpg
http://overmental.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/bone-claws.jpg
https://d8l792bi5zc2h.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2014/06/hk_global_comp_0460-after_v001.1001.jpg

Silent Master

Not commenting on who wins as I've only read the GOT books.

But, Just because Logan has fought more than one person at a time before doesn't mean that being outnumbered isn't a disadvantage.

Surtur

Wolverine will literally get raped by these people.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Silent Master
Not commenting on who wins as I've only read the GOT books.

But, Just because Logan has fought more than one person at a time before doesn't mean that being outnumbered isn't a disadvantage.

Of course it's a disadvantage. stick out tongue

It's just that he's handled a worse numbers disadvantage from faster opponents (without getting tagged by their swords save by their leader).

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Surtur
Wolverine will literally get raped by these people.

How so, tho?

Surtur

With only bone claws and these people in armor...I don't know how it ends well.

Maybe I am underestimating how tough his bone claws are.

KingD19

Also as Nib pointed out they all have various cloth parts of armor where Logan can shred and let them bleed out.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Surtur
With only bone claws and these people in armor...I don't know how it ends well.

Maybe I am underestimating how tough his bone claws are.

He's definitely not blocking direct power blows. But he can just dodge those and roll away and he can just duck down and attack their legs the same way he does in the clips I posted.

Not an easy fight (that is why I am not convinced he wins myself, but would like to debate it as I am very bored).

The problem I have with the entire thing is that the characters involved are not fast at all (other than Jamie and he's not really all that fast himself compared to the better opponents Wolverine has faced) as Wolverine or the opponents he's faced. Especially the Hound and the Mountain, who move like they have lead weights on their feet (especially compared to RL HEMA practitioners). They are powerful, no doubt, but they need to score a direct hit to incapacitate Wolverine (as he'd heal any damage below a decap or dismemberment) and all he needs is to stab them once and he can just stay his distance and watch as they likely bleed out.

Like I said, not saying it's going to be easy for Wolverine (and I'm open to arguments that point out that he loses and am have not even made up my mind that he wins at all). Just saying it's not a lock for the team to win as Wolverine does have options.

Tho I have already posted all this in like the wall of text few pages back.

Josh_Alexander

Am afraid to say Wolverine doesnt have a chance here.

Again, those bone claws wont do much. Although Wolverine is fast, he will NEED to eventually block the swords! He has 3 enemies approaching from 3 flanks. He will get sorrounded!

The moment he does, those swords will cut limbs and bones! Wolverine with no Adamantium is fragile.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Am afraid to say Wolverine doesnt have a chance here.

Again, those bone claws wont do much. Although Wolverine is fast, he will NEED to eventually block the swords! He has 3 enemies approaching from 3 flanks. He will get sorrounded!

The moment he does, those swords will cut limbs and bones! Wolverine with no Adamantium is fragile.

Wolverine isn't stupid enough to allow them to surround him before he engages one.

Likely (like anyone trained in self defense, or anyone experienced with any actual fighting, he will know or have been taught when dealing with multiple opponent and the option of "run away" or "defuse the situation" does not exist) he would position himself in a manner that would put one opponent between himself and his other opponents (effectively limiting their points of engagement), likely the Mountain as he is a slow and lumbering beast, as he does have a solid (if not huge) mobility advantage here.

TheVaultDweller

Well, at least no one is arguing that Fox Wolverine is hypersonic anymore. Yeah, that was actually a thing for a while.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, at least no one is arguing that Fox Wolverine is hypersonic anymore. Yeah, that was actually a thing for a while.

Wait... that happened?

How?

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Wait... that happened?

How?

People were arguing that because pre-experiment Wade Wilson was able to do the bullet-blocking sword feat, Wolverine not being completely blitzed by Barakapool meant that he had comparable speed to what was shown in the earlier scene.

Never mind that Wilson had his powers messed with, brain re-wired to respond to an early 80s computer, an unknown amount of adamantium pumped into his body, and never displays the same level of speed as he did pre-experiments. Or that the whole process hadn't even been properly finished and tested, and that Stryker releasing him to fight Logan had basically been a desperate gamble, meaning that Weapon XI's combat effectiveness was unknown at that point... Or, you know, the fact that Logan gets shot in the head directly after the end fight and was not even remotely fast enough to dodge... Or him being just as frozen as everyone else during the DoFP Pentagon slowmo scene... Or being repeatedly tagged by that fat-ass, Blob, in the same movie he was apparently hypersonic.

But thankfully Imp put a stop to that nonsense in the one thread a while back.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
People were arguing that because pre-experiment Wade Wilson was able to do the bullet-blocking sword feat, Wolverine not being completely blitzed by Barakapool meant that he had comparable speed to what was shown in the earlier scene.

Never mind that Wilson had his powers messed with, brain re-wired to respond to an early 80s computer, and an unknown amount of adamantium pumped into his body. Or that the whole process hadn't even been properly finished and tested and that Stryker releasing him to fight Logan had basically been a desperate gamble, meaning that Weapon XI's combat effectiveness was unknown at that point... Or, you know, the fact that Logan gets shot in the head directly after the end fight and was not even remotely fast enough to dodge... Or him being just as frozen as everyone else during the DoFP Pentagon slowmo scene.

But thankfully Imp put a stop to that nonsense in the one thread a while back.

Ow. Lol. O_O

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Ow. Lol. O_O

It was a pretty spectacular leap of logic. Because, using the logic that was being pushed, all of Logan's other opponents would then be in that same speed group as well. Including Juggernaut, Shingen, Silver Samurai, Blob, Creed, Mystique etc. Hell, the Fox verse would basically be a universe of speedsters.

Josh_Alexander

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The moment he engages one the other two will sorround him. That is basic logic.

Jaime is a good commander. The moutain can take A LOT OF PUNISHMENT. He could easily grab Wolverine without getting much damage from those Bone claws, while Jaime and Sandor butcher Wolverine with thos Swords!

Wolverine gets raped. That is certain.

What does being a good commander have anything to do with anything here? Of course he will tell them to try and flank Logan (doesn't take any "brilliance" to figure that out). But success would require that the Hound and the Mountain be fast enough to keep up. By the time they can even get close to a flank, Wolvie would have engaged the Mountain, stabbed his leg (see: the Wolverine clips) and rolled away (w/c he has also done in the Wolverine clips I showed).

Lol at the Mountain doing a grapple without taking damage (he couldn't even chase down Oberyn who is not as fast via "feats" nor has leap distance that Wolvie has shown). When Wolverine has been shown to be far faster than him and has superhuman strength himself.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
What does being a good commander have anything to do with anything here? Of course he will tell them to try and flank Logan (doesn't take any "brilliance" to figure that out). But success would require that the Hound and the Mountain be fast enough to keep up. By the time they can even get close to a flank, Wolvie would have engaged the Mountain, stabbed his leg (see: the Wolverine clips) and rolled away (w/c he has also done in the Wolverine clips I showed).

Lol at the Mountain doing a grapple without taking damage (he couldn't even chase down Oberyn who is not as fast via "feats" nor has leap distance that Wolvie has shown). When Wolverine has been shown to be far faster than him and has superhuman strength himself.

First of all no. A good comander grants the team coordination.

With Jaime giving orders, and Sandor and Gregor following orders..Bone wolverine is as good as ****ed!

Wolverine doesnt have 1m long claws to keep distance. Wolverine WILL HAVE to get close. Once he does, the mountain grabs him and beats his brains out of his skull!

I love Wolverine, but bone wolverine is 1000 times more vulnerable than Bone one. Sorry but i never support the side with Less probability...

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all no. A good comander grants the team coordination.

With Jaime giving orders, and Sandor and Gregor following orders..Bone wolverine is as good as ****ed!

Wolverine doesnt have 1m long claws to keep distance. Wolverine WILL HAVE to get close. Once he does, the mountain grabs him and beats his brains out of his skull!

I love Wolverine, but bone wolverine is 1000 times more vulnerable than Bone one. Sorry but i never support the side with Less probability...

Except that even with the best coordination, they would still need to move fast enough to keep up with Wolverine before he can reposition. Which they're not.

He doesn't need to keep distance, in fact the opposite is true, he needs to close in (from inside their guard) and inflict (even minor) damage and get out. Which he fast enough, skilled enough and strong enough to do by "feats". Blood loss and exhaustion will do the rest (big guys in armor swinging big swords while bleeding will get tired sooner than later).

Again, with Gregor grabbing and easily overpowering Wolvie. When 1) He wasn't able to grab Oberyn til Oberyn literally offered him his ankle and turned around WWE style. 2) Wolverine has Superstrength himself and would have a decent chance of being able to shake off Gregor 3) He would have been stabbed in the thigh before he can do a grapple.

Wolverine has been able to (top of my mind):

Lift and wield 200-250 lbs dirt bike like it was a 10lbs folding chair (The Wolverine). Zero effort.
Toss 2 fully grown and geared men (200 lbs each?) One arm each. Around 5-10 feet with no leverage or effort (X2).
Toss the head of a Danger room sim Sentinel (a metal head as tall as he is) over 30 feet after decaping it (X:LS, outlier I know)
Toss Sabertooth (200 lbs guy) 10-15 feet vertically into the air, again with no leverage, just shoulder strength. (X:O)
Go toe to toe, strength to strength with Sabertooth (who has bona fide super strength) as well as the Silver Samurai power armor. (X:O)

What are Gregor's best strength "feats" (Other than being a big brute)?

No, this current online "persona" of yours supports GoT characters with an obvious bias. I know you are just having a little fun, tho. So no hate. thumb up

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Except that even with the best coordination, they would still need to move fast enough to keep up with Wolverine before he can reposition. Which they're not.

He doesn't need to keep distance, in fact the opposite is true, he needs to close in (from inside their guard) and inflict (even minor) damage and get out. Which he fast enough, skilled enough and strong enough to do by "feats". Blood loss and exhaustion will do the rest (big guys in armor swinging big swords while bleeding will get tired sooner than later).

Again, with Gregor grabbing and easily overpowering Wolvie. When 1) He wasn't able to grab Oberyn til Oberyn literally offered him his ankle and turned around WWE style. 2) Wolverine has Superstrength himself and would have a decent chance of being able to shake off Gregor 3) He would have been stabbed in the thigh before he can do a grapple.

Wolverine has been able to (top of my mind):

Lift and wield 200-250 lbs dirt bike like it was a 10lbs folding chair (The Wolverine). Zero effort.
Toss 2 fully grown and geared men (200 lbs each?) One arm each. Around 5-10 feet with no leverage or effort (X2).
Toss the head of a Danger room sim Sentinel (a metal head as tall as he is) over 30 feet after decaping it (X:LS, outlier I know)
Toss Sabertooth (200 lbs guy) 10-15 feet vertically into the air, again with no leverage, just shoulder strength. (X:O)
Go toe to toe, strength to strength with Sabertooth (who has bona fide super strength) as well as the Silver Samurai power armor. (X:O)

What are Gregor's best strength "feats" (Other than being a big brute)?

No, this current online "persona" of yours supports GoT characters with an obvious bias. I know you are just having a little fun, tho. So no hate. thumb up

First thing you got wrong, Oberyn had a 4ft lance which prevented the Mountain from getting close! Wolverine getting close would mean getting SEVERLY PUNISHED BY the Mountain!

The Mountain can DECAPITATE a HORSE with one swing of his Sword! I can see Wolverine EASILY losing an arm if he gets close!

Wolverine isnt flash! He isnt a dodger he is a blocker! In MOST of his fights with the ninjas he used his ADAMANTIUM CLAWS to block Katana Swords! He cant do the same now!

Wolverine will get Struck! The moment he does several bones will get fractured! Healing will take longer, his speed will decrease as well as his stamina. Its just a matter of time before ANYONE gives a killer or KO strike!

Jaime isnt a common Ninja! Jaime still can give a LOT of damaging blows.

Accept it! Wolverine is on the losing side.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1) First thing you got wrong, Oberyn had a 4ft lance which prevented the Mountain from getting close! Wolverine getting close would mean getting SEVERLY PUNISHED BY the Mountain!

2) The Mountain can DECAPITATE a HORSE with one swing of his Sword! I can see Wolverine EASILY losing an arm if he gets close!

3) Wolverine isnt flash! He isnt a dodger he is a blocker! In MOST of his fights with the ninjas he used his ADAMANTIUM CLAWS to block Katana Swords! He cant do the same now!

4) Wolverine will get Struck! The moment he does several bones will get fractured!

5) Healing will take longer, his speed will decrease as well as his stamina. Its just a matter of time before ANYONE gives a killer or KO strike!

6) Jaime isnt a common Ninja! Jaime still can give a LOT of damaging blows.

Accept it! Wolverine is on the losing side.

1) Not when the Mountain broke it and knocked it from his hands:

https://youtu.be/QS2IYyywZMs

(3:13-3:24) Couldn't even hit Oberyn when Oberyn was unarmed on his ass on the ground. With a huge ass sword. That was a pretty bad showing really.

(3:45) And he tried to charge Oberyn, which was slow AF and easily sidestepped.

2) Which needs to be a direct power blow w/c is slow AF and easily avoided by someone of Wovlerine's dodging "feats". Come on, man. You're just repeating yourself now.

3) Except for all the times where he did duck and dodge and rolled and avoided attacks (that I posted videos of), amirite?

He blocked them because he can. If he can't, then he will dodge. Like he did several attacks in the video I posted (timestamped for your convenience). He's not a moron and I've already shown video evidence of him being able to adapt his tactics. Again in the videos I posted.

I already said this. Come on, if you're gonna ignore the evidence I post, we don't really have much to talk about. I put some work into that stuff.

4) Their power attacks are too slow to tag him. (Source: Video I posted when the Mountain and Hound fought).

I'm sure the faster stabs and slashes could glancingly tag him eventually but those don't do enough damage for Wolverine to be even be all that bothered by them.

5) You are VERY wrong here. Time is NOT on their side.

Any minor damage they take will make bleed out slowly and exhaust their stamina.

You use up 2x the amount of energy to move in armor than you do when not armored (and they'll be chasing around a much more nimble guy):

"Nevertheless, the team found that the volunteers expended nearly twice as much energy walking and running while wearing the armor as when they weren't."

(Source: http://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/a6749/medieval-knights-on-a-treadmill-put-historical-myths-to-the-test/)

Wolverine's healing factor (when it was not weakened like it was in Logan) has never been shown to tax his stamina.

It's not a matter of time at all. Time is on Wolvie's side, the longer he draws it out (using his superior mobility to dictate the pace of the fight).

6) Of course Jamie is not a ninja. He's not as fast or as agile. How does him not being a ninja mean he can deal out damaging blows? Kind of a non-sequitur here, buddy.

John Murdoch

If Wolverine does the "dramatic jump over the camera while POV rotates to some goon getting chest impaled" move patented by Bryan Singer, I can see Logan losing.

However, this a 100-year old war veteran that has fought samurai power armor, a mutant with superhuman agility feats, a mutant with with nigh-superhuman agility feats that had the same adamantium skeleton as him at the time, his mutant step-brother that can swing the trunk of a tree like a baseball bat, and a mutant that can crush APC's and bust through walls by running into them.

Also, gotten crushed by logs and look like he just had a bad night's sleep when the logs on top of him are cleared, gotten shot hundreds of times escaping the Weapon X facility, gotten shot by like 50 arrows in the back and kept walking, survived an atom bomb, jumped off a nuclear power plant tower, thrown armored goons backwards over his shoulders like he was doing a double cable deltoid backhand, and survived having rebar twisting through him by Magneto then thrown into the Potomac River.

My argument is that if he can tank/survive this stuff and fight all these different opponents and still somehow come away with an action hero win, he can take down the Thrones crew.

EDIT: Inb4, "but the OP says no adamantium!" I know this, and yes obviously the adamantium made some of the above feats survivable for Logan. I still listed plenty of feats of Wolverine with just bone, and the adamantium wouldn't have stopped his organs from turning to mush and his tendons, ligaments, and fascia from snapping when doing something like jumping off the coolant tower on the nuclear power plant.

FrothByte

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Wolverine isn't stupid enough to allow them to surround him before he engages one.

Likely (like anyone trained in self defense, or anyone experienced with any actual fighting, he will know or have been taught when dealing with multiple opponent and the option of "run away" or "defuse the situation" does not exist) he would position himself in a manner that would put one opponent between himself and his other opponents (effectively limiting their points of engagement), likely the Mountain as he is a slow and lumbering beast, as he does have a solid (if not huge) mobility advantage here.

I haven't replied to your first posts because I haven't watched the videos. Thought it would be dick move to continue to argue without at least reviewing your posted proof.

But I just want to say that in the same way you think Wolverine isn't going to fight stupid, the GOT knights aren't fighting stupid either. They will surround him, keep their distance, utilize their longer reach.

I also think you're highly exaggerating the lethal capabilities of Wolverine's bone claws. These claws cannot cut. Not that I recall anyway. They can stab and they can slash but I don't recall him ever slashing too deeply with them. Going for an opponent's legs will leave him completely exposed from a hit from above. That would be a suicide move for him. Heck, the knights can simply extend their swords infront of them and watch Wolverine impale himself on the blade. That takes no special speed at all.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by FrothByte
I haven't replied to your first posts because I haven't watched the videos. Thought it would be dick move to continue to argue without at least reviewing your posted proof.

1) But I just want to say that in the same way you think Wolverine isn't going to fight stupid, the GOT knights aren't fighting stupid either. They will surround him, keep their distance, utilize their longer reach.

2) I also think you're highly exaggerating the lethal capabilities of Wolverine's bone claws. These claws cannot cut. Not that I recall anyway. They can stab and they can slash but I don't recall him ever slashing too deeply with them.

3) Going for an opponent's legs will leave him completely exposed from a hit from above. That would be a suicide move for him.

1) The video I posted how quickly a fast and skilled dual knife user can close even against a competent (however less skilled) longsword user trying to make use of their reach advantage.

If they keep the sword extended (like in the video) to put the sword between them and Logan, he can use his claws to push away the tip of the blade (like in the video) and close in quickly and he'd likely suffer inconsequential damage (likely a deep cut AT BEST).

If they cock their arms and do a power cut, he'd duck under and stab their leg (like the Wolverine video I posted). As the Hound and the Mountain's power slashes tend to look very telegraphed.

I'm sure you will agree that in order to maintain one's reach advantage against an opponent, one needs to be able to match the speed of their foot work, else they get chased down. Footwork Wolverine will have a huge advantage in against the Mountain or the Hound (who he'll likely take out first as they are big fat juicy targets).

2) He doesn't need to slash when stabbing works best, actually and he's been able to stab clean thru Sabertooth's shoulder (bone and all, right thru what looks like the clavicle/scapula) straight thru up to his fist.

https://youtu.be/0N7ZDpIbx10

2:13-2:15

3) Except for the times he did stab ppl in the legs and NOT get countered (he rolls away right after he stabs someone or flings them in the air). He also tends to throw down or trip his opponents once he stabs them in the leg (source: videos I posted already). So I don't get how anyone he stabs can counter.

And the time the Mountain got a bit slashed in the leg (by Oberyn), he cringed and whined in agony so I don't see how he can possibly counter after getting 3 deep stabs.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Not when the Mountain broke it and knocked it from his hands:

https://youtu.be/QS2IYyywZMs

(3:13-3:24) Couldn't even hit Oberyn when Oberyn was unarmed on his ass on the ground. With a huge ass sword. That was a pretty bad showing really.

(3:45) And he tried to charge Oberyn, which was slow AF and easily sidestepped.

2) Which needs to be a direct power blow w/c is slow AF and easily avoided by someone of Wovlerine's dodging "feats". Come on, man. You're just repeating yourself now.

3) Except for all the times where he did duck and dodge and rolled and avoided attacks (that I posted videos of), amirite?

He blocked them because he can. If he can't, then he will dodge. Like he did several attacks in the video I posted (timestamped for your convenience). He's not a moron and I've already shown video evidence of him being able to adapt his tactics. Again in the videos I posted.

I already said this. Come on, if you're gonna ignore the evidence I post, we don't really have much to talk about. I put some work into that stuff.

4) Their power attacks are too slow to tag him. (Source: Video I posted when the Mountain and Hound fought).

I'm sure the faster stabs and slashes could glancingly tag him eventually but those don't do enough damage for Wolverine to be even be all that bothered by them.

5) You are VERY wrong here. Time is NOT on their side.

Any minor damage they take will make bleed out slowly and exhaust their stamina.

You use up 2x the amount of energy to move in armor than you do when not armored (and they'll be chasing around a much more nimble guy):

"Nevertheless, the team found that the volunteers expended nearly twice as much energy walking and running while wearing the armor as when they weren't."

(Source: http://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/a6749/medieval-knights-on-a-treadmill-put-historical-myths-to-the-test/)

Wolverine's healing factor (when it was not weakened like it was in Logan) has never been shown to tax his stamina.

It's not a matter of time at all. Time is on Wolvie's side, the longer he draws it out (using his superior mobility to dictate the pace of the fight).

6) Of course Jamie is not a ninja. He's not as fast or as agile. How does him not being a ninja mean he can deal out damaging blows? Kind of a non-sequitur here, buddy.

Again its three of them! Mountain aint alone! Wolverine WILL GET HIT!
that is not a question nor a maybe. HE WILL GET HIT. Once he gets a broken Arm or Leg he will get another and anothet. Wolverine will get carnaged!

Am repeating myself cause you keep repeating your folly!

Jaime is a better swordsman than any of those ninjas! Ninjas might be faster but he has better sword techniques.

No. Wolverine cant dodge Three good opponents flanking him! Bone wolverine gets massacred!

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by John Murdoch
If Wolverine does the "dramatic jump over the camera while POV rotates to some goon getting chest impaled" move patented by Bryan Singer, I can see Logan losing.

However, this a 100-year old war veteran that has fought samurai power armor, a mutant with superhuman agility feats, a mutant with with nigh-superhuman agility feats that had the same adamantium skeleton as him at the time, his mutant step-brother that can swing the trunk of a tree like a baseball bat, and a mutant that can crush APC's and bust through walls by running into them.

Also, gotten crushed by logs and look like he just had a bad night's sleep when the logs on top of him are cleared, gotten shot hundreds of times escaping the Weapon X facility, gotten shot by like 50 arrows in the back and kept walking, survived an atom bomb, jumped off a nuclear power plant tower, thrown armored goons backwards over his shoulders like he was doing a double cable deltoid backhand, and survived having rebar twisting through him by Magneto then thrown into the Potomac River.

My argument is that if he can tank/survive this stuff and fight all these different opponents and still somehow come away with an action hero win, he can take down the Thrones crew.

EDIT: Inb4, "but the OP says no adamantium!" I know this, and yes obviously the adamantium made some of the above feats survivable for Logan. I still listed plenty of feats of Wolverine with just bone, and the adamantium wouldn't have stopped his organs from turning to mush and his tendons, ligaments, and fascia from snapping when doing something like jumping off the coolant tower on the nuclear power plant.

Adamantium Wolverine》》》》》》》》》》》》》Bone Wolverine

He will get several Bone fractures or maybe even cut limbs to the swords! The moment Wolverine passes out team Wins by K.O!

He can also get decapitated!

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

1) Again its three of them! Mountain aint alone! Wolverine WILL GET HIT!
that is not a question nor a maybe. HE WILL GET HIT. Once he gets a broken Arm or Leg he will get another and anothet. Wolverine will get carnaged!

2) Am repeating myself cause you keep repeating your folly!

3) Jaime is a better swordsman than any of those ninjas! Ninjas might be faster but he has better sword techniques.

4) No. Wolverine cant dodge Three good opponents flanking him! Bone wolverine gets massacred!

1) I share your opinion on Wolverine getting hit. I do not share in your opinion that the hits would be direct power blows that will shatter bone. Mountain and Hound are too slow. I don't recall Jamie being able to cut entire limbs with his sword strikes as he seemed more finesse-y as a fighter to me.

2) I post "feats" and proof. You post caps and opinions.

3) Better longsword user, sure. Better swordsman? Maybe. But this isn't a sword duel. His opponent uses a different set of weapons and moves in a different way than he is used to.

4) Unlike the times he was flanked by multiple faster swordsmen (where I posted videos of), amirite?

John Murdoch

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Adamantium Wolverine》》》》》》》》》》》》》Bone Wolverine

He will get several Bone fractures or maybe even cut limbs to the swords! The moment Wolverine passes out team Wins by K.O!

He can also get decapitated!

Bro, I even put the edit portion at the bottom of my post b/c I knew that was coming. Bone claw got crushed by logs from a log truck and was no worse for the wear besides looking groggy when Victor cleaned up the mess to get to him. And, again, having indestructible bones won't protect someone from having their chest organs rupture when they get smacked by a tree or jump hundreds of feet in the air onto the ground.

I've seen all the X-Men films. Seen all of Thrones except maybe a season 2 episode. I understand they have three advantages (armor, reach, numbers). Wolverine is just in a higher-tier, my man.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Bro, I even put the edit portion at the bottom of my post b/c I knew that was coming. Bone claw got crushed by logs from a log truck and was no worse for the wear besides looking groggy when Victor cleaned up the mess to get to him. And, again, having indestructible bones won't protect someone from having their chest organs rupture when they get smacked by a tree or jump hundreds of feet in the air onto the ground.

I've seen all the X-Men films. Seen all of Thrones except maybe a season 2 episode. I understand they have three advantages (armor, reach, numbers). Wolverine is just in a higher-tier, my man.

Lol so why are we disagreeing? I am supporting the same thing eek!

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) I share your opinion on Wolverine getting hit. I do not share in your opinion that the hits would be direct power blows that will shatter bone. Mountain and Hound are too slow. I don't recall Jamie being able to cut entire limbs with his sword strikes as he seemed more finesse-y as a fighter to me.

2) I post "feats" and proof. You post caps and opinions.

3) Better longsword user, sure. Better swordsman? Maybe. But this isn't a sword duel. His opponent uses a different set of weapons and moves in a different way than he is used to.

4) Unlike the times he was flanked by multiple faster swordsmen (where I posted videos of), amirite?

1. A sword hit from Jaime would definetly break bones! The reason because weve not seen himnto is because in all his fights his blows have been blocked by other swords. Once Wolverine getd a broken arm or leg his movility will decrease! It only takes ONE blow from Sandor or Gregor to lose a limb. The probabilities of Wolverine getting broken bones is high.

2. Am posting logic. And evidence as well, a good combination of those. Evidence means less if things dont match up.

3. Wolverine has no reliable Weapon! Bone Claws are fragile and non meaningful against armor...Wolverine has a disadvantage here. Put Bone Wolverine against those Ninjas and things would have been much different!....

4. He had to block some blows with his Bone claws.

Wolverine isnt on the winning side here, not even near limbo.

That is clear.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. A sword hit from Jaime would definetly break bones! The reason because weve not seen himnto is because in all his fights his blows have been blocked by other swords. Once Wolverine getd a broken arm or leg his movility will decrease! It only takes ONE blow from Sandor or Gregor to lose a limb. The probabilities of Wolverine getting broken bones is high.

2. Am posting logic. And evidence as well, a good combination of those. Evidence means less if things dont match up.

3. Wolverine has no reliable Weapon! Bone Claws are fragile and non meaningful against armor...Wolverine has a disadvantage here. Put Bone Wolverine against those Ninjas and things would have been much different!....

4. He had to block some blows with his Bone claws.

Wolverine isnt on the winning side here, not even near limbo.

That is clear.

1. You're just repeating yourself now. I posted multiple evidence of Wolverine avoiding fast sword attacks. You have posted your opinion. Pls be able to tell the difference. He is far faster than Jamie and have fought faster opponents without getting hit (see clips I posted). You have not posted any evidence of Jamie lopping off limbs or outfighting agile opponents. So my proof > yours.

2. Your logic is faulty w/c I've debunked via proof (via video clips) I've posted. You're just ignoring the proof cuz you can't disprove it.

You posting evidence would be if you were linking/posting timestamped video clips and source materials that would confirm your assertions, you have done none of those. So everything you've posted is simply your opinion and speculation. Again, pls be able to tell the difference.

3. He's been able to pierce his opponents with his bone claws (sabertooth, random mob goons) just fine. You are, again, speculating.

4. He blocks them because he can. He's no moron. If he can't block attacks from certain weapons, he'll simply dodge (w/c he's done to faster attacks, proven by the clips I've posted). <--- I've already typed this up more than once. And I'm not going to repeat it again. Pls read my previous replies. If you can't debunk it. Don't repeat the same tired assertion pls.

You keep repeating the "Wolverine has no chance" logic but can't seem to provide video evidence that would support your position. Funny that.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. You're just repeating yourself now. I posted multiple evidence of Wolverine avoiding fast sword attacks. You have posted your opinion. Pls be able to tell the difference. He is far faster than Jamie and have fought faster opponents without getting hit (see clips I posted). You have not posted any evidence of Jamie lopping off limbs or outfighting agile opponents. So my proof > yours.

2. Your logic is faulty w/c I've debunked via proof (via video clips) I've posted. You're just ignoring the proof cuz you can't disprove it.

You posting evidence would be if you were linking/posting timestamped video clips and source materials that would confirm your assertions, you have done none of those. So everything you've posted is simply your opinion and speculation. Again, pls be able to tell the difference.

3. He's been able to pierce his opponents with his bone claws (sabertooth, random mob goons) just fine. You are, again, speculating.

4. He blocks them because he can. He's no moron. If he can't block attacks from certain weapons, he'll simply dodge (w/c he's done to faster attacks, proven by the clips I've posted). <--- I've already typed this up more than once. And I'm not going to repeat it again. Pls read my previous replies. If you can't debunk it. Don't repeat the same tired assertion pls.

You keep repeating the "Wolverine has no chance" logic but can't seem to provide video evidence that would support your position. Funny that.

1. You want evidence! Let me grant you that!

https://youtu.be/qeqM1BVv3zA

Clearly blocks 50% of the blows! If he does the same in this fight he will lose BOTH CLAWS in a heart beat! He even got hit! In your own video the Ninja hit Wolverine's forehead! Without thw adamantium and his skull would have gotten open as an orange!

So here is my evidence, picture it as one of Jaime's blows against yours which is like Wolverine's Bone Claws.

2. I thought i didnt need to post videos. I thought you honest and faie enough to admit what i was saying, it seems however i got to do extra work and break your points by bringing evidence.

3. He has never been seen penetrating armor! Dont assume armor is cloth! Nor aluminum from a car's hood! You are the one speculating here!

4.You have no evidence for that! He is used to using his claws as shields! Logic says he isnt used to dodging. Once more you are speculating he will be able to dodge all blows like if he was flash. Again without logic your points are as fragile as Bone Wolverine!

Again i didnt brought evidence cause i thought i didnt need to. But since you want me to further push back your claims...

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. You want evidence! Let me grant you that!

https://youtu.be/qeqM1BVv3zA

Clearly blocks 50% of the blows! If he does the same in this fight he will lose BOTH CLAWS in a heart beat! He even got hit! In your own video the Ninja hit Wolverine's forehead! Without thw adamantium and his skull would have gotten open as an orange!

So here is my evidence, picture it as one of Jaime's blows against yours which is like Wolverine's Bone Claws.

2. I thought i didnt need to post videos. I thought you honest and faie enough to admit what i was saying, it seems however i got to do extra work and break your points by bringing evidence.

3. He has never been seen penetrating armor! Dont assume armor is cloth! Nor aluminum from a car's hood! You are the one speculating here!

4.You have no evidence for that! He is used to using his claws as shields! Logic says he isnt used to dodging. Once more you are speculating he will be able to dodge all blows like if he was flash. Again without logic your points are as fragile as Bone Wolverine!

Again i didnt brought evidence cause i thought i didnt need to. But since you want me to further push back your claims...

1. Sheesh. I already debunked this. See above. I'll not repeat the same argument I've already posted more than once.

2. Nope post videos so we can see what you mean. You don't believe what I say when I say it, what makes you think I am under an obligation to believe your opinions when you don't provide a basis for it?

3. Clearly you haven't been reading what I have been typing. Will not repeat already provided logic (supported by proof).

4. Yes I did. I've posted it over and over. If you're not going to read what I write, I think I'm just wasting my time here.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Sheesh. I already debunked this. See above. I'll not repeat the same argument I've already posted more than once.

2. Nope post videos so we can see what you mean. You don't believe what I say when I say it, what makes you think I am under an obligation to believe your opinions when you don't provide a basis for it?

3. Clearly you haven't been reading what I have been typing. Will not repeat already provided logic (supported by proof).

4. Yes I did. I've posted it over and over. If you're not going to read what I write, I think I'm just wasting my time here.

1. Sheesh you keep bringing the same unreasonable/unresponisible/not-logic answer! Wolverine will get a blow! Period! No need to keep arguing the inevitable.

2. I have gave you videos! Wolverine is clearly not a dodger! He dodges from time to time Yes. But he relies to much on his claws. Else prove me otherwise!

3.Clearly you keep repeating the same unlogical arguments!

4. You've posted over and over. And over and over in your videos it is clear that Wolverine needs his claws to defend himself. He doesn't have them in this fight (Since they will break the moment he decides to use them) so your evidence goes against you.

The same thing i can say (am losing my time), since you keep arguing the same stupid point. Wolverine isn't a master at dodging things. Period.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. Sheesh you keep bringing the same unreasonable/unresponisible/not-logic answer! Wolverine will get a blow! Period! No need to keep arguing the inevitable.

2. I have gave you videos! Wolverine is clearly not a dodger! He dodges from time to time Yes. But he relies to much on his claws. Else prove me otherwise!

3.Clearly you keep repeating the same unlogical arguments!

4. You've posted over and over. And over and over in your videos it is clear that Wolverine needs his claws to defend himself. He doesn't have them in this fight (Since they will break the moment he decides to use them) so your evidence goes against you.

The same thing i can say (am losing my time), since you keep arguing the same stupid point. Wolverine isn't a master at dodging things. Period.

1. Nope. Judging from your replies, you didn't read most of my replies at all. Since I've already debunked all this. Either keep up or stand down.

2. See above.

3. "unlogical". Greaaat.

4. Already covered this, too.

I guess I'll have wait for Froth for a decent debate. I'm not gonna waste my time repeating myself.

omgchos

Logans like the "not dodging" master. Best thing hes got going for him is blocking things with his claws. Hes got some pretty damn good hand eye coordination tho. Its just that those bone claws are so fragile. Sabre tooth broke them with just the force of his foot. So we can assume the consistency of normal bone. Gregor at the very leas has shown he can cut through bone like butter. Even if he manages to pcik one of them and try to dodge him the other has him dead to rights without a way to block.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Nope. Judging from your replies, you didn't read most of my replies at all. Since I've already debunked all this. Either keep up or stand down.

2. See above.

3. "unlogical". Greaaat.

4. Already covered this, too.

I guess I'll have wait for Froth for a decent debate. I'm not gonna waste my time repeating myself.

Good luck, nor will I.

Josh_Alexander

Nibedicus

Originally posted by omgchos
Logans like the "not dodging" master. Best thing hes got going for him is blocking things with his claws. Hes got some pretty damn good hand eye coordination tho. Its just that those bone claws are so fragile. Sabre tooth broke them with just the force of his foot. So we can assume the consistency of normal bone. Gregor at the very leas has shown he can cut through bone like butter. Even if he manages to pcik one of them and try to dodge him the other has him dead to rights without a way to block.

See? This is a misconception. I posted a few replies that covers this around 2 pages ago.

Basically, Wolverine blocks because he can and it is the style best suited to his advantages (his top advantages being his damage soak and his unbreakable claws). When he dodges, he does so pretty well against multiple opponents who are all far faster than the lead footed Clegane brothers.

One doesn't need to block a full power cut from a longsword with bone claws, for Logan to do so, he'd have to be an complete idiot who is unfamiliar with the limitations his own powers that he's had for most of a century and be unable to change tactics (w/c I proved 2 pages ago was not true). He can always dodge those (as the Mountain and the Hound's power cuts are slow AF. Source: The fight between the 2) or he can just catch them on the downswing (source: ninja battle, early Yakuza battle) as he has what seems to be superstrength (source: ninja battle, X2, X3, X0). One can also just parry or shove the sword aside (source: the HEMA fight video I posted 2 pages ago in reply to Froth) if the opponent's stance points out the tip (to take advantage of the reach).

Bottom line is, Wolverine is not dumb and can change tactics fight if needed (see: argument from 2 pages ago) and can dodge very well (thus it is part of his combat toolkit) when needed (proof: ninja fight scene, Barakpool fight scene video, logic explaining it: see 2 pages ago) against much faster opponents. It is not his traditional fighting style, but humans are not robots, we can adapt when the situation calls for it. If Wolverine knows how to dodge, provable by "feats", then by forum rules it is a skill we can use in the debate. He is also fighting opponents who have (by virtue of their cinematic universe's poor choreography) so much slower (other than Jamie who is not too much slower, but slower nonetheless) than the opponents he's faced before, thus the level of difficulty for him to execute the needed defensive moves is much lower than what he is normally used to.

All the above sources I provided, I posted videos showing exactly what I'm saying. Just go back 1-2 pages. It's all there.

I also already posted arguments covering all this within the last 2 pages and if you would be so kind as to review them, I can explain my position further if you have any questions.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
IK but the guy keeps saying he will....Its life, there is lots of unreasonable people out there. Specially those which support their idols instead of reason.

Let's get one thing straight here: I debate for the fun of it. I do not "support" characters like "some" fanboys out there (thus I am also prone to support characters that may or may not be at a disadvatage, cuz who likes to do something that has no challenge?). I'm here because I am bored. So you might want to cut down on the accusations, kiddo.

omgchos

Originally posted by Nibedicus
See? This is a misconception. I posted a few replies that covers this around 2 pages ago.

Basically, Wolverine blocks because he can and it is the style best suited to his advantages (his top advantages being his damage soak and his unbreakable claws). When he dodges, he does pretty well against multiple opponents who are all far faster than the lead footed Clegane brothers.

One doesn't need to block a full power cut, for Logan to do, he'd have to be an idiot and be unable to change tactics (w/c I proved 2 pages ago was not true). He can always dodge those (as the Mountain and the Hound's power cuts are slow AF. Source: The fight between the 2) or he can just catch them on the downswing (source: ninja battle, early Yakuza battle) as he has what seems to be superstrength (source: ninja battle, X2, X3, X0). One can also just parry or shove the sword aside (source: the HEMA fight video I posted 2 pages ago in reply to Froth) if the opponent's stance points out the tip (to take advantage of the reach).

Bottom line is, Wolverine is not dumb and can change tactics fight if needed (see: argument from 2 pages ago) and can dodge very well (thus it is part of his combat toolkit) when needed (proof: ninja fight scene, Barakpool fight scene video, logic explaining it: see 2 pages ago) against much faster opponents. It is not his traditional fighting style, but humans are not robots, we can adapt when the situation calls for it. If Wolverine knows how to dodge, provable by "feats", then by forum rules it is a skill we can use in the debate.

All the above sources I provided, I posted videos showing exactly what I'm saying. Just go back 1-2 pages. It's all there.

I also already posted arguments covering all this within the last 2 pages and if you would be so kind as to review them, I can explain my position further if you have any questions.

Na im with you for most of it. Its just that hes sans adamantium. And this is Jaime lanister were talking about even within the show when he was starved and completely out of practice he went toe to toe with brienne. we know brienne has beaten both the hound and the lorris and is there fore a very skilled fighter. Im not saying its an instant victory. We know logan can take alot of punishment even when hes not at full healing factor. Fighting JUST one of the cleganes maybe, fighting 2 cleganes hes still got a chance, but throw in the prodigy that is jaime lannister and i dont see how he can pull through.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by omgchos
Na im with you for most of it. Its just that hes sans adamantium. And this is Jaime lanister were talking about even within the show when he was starved and completely out of practice he went toe to toe with brienne. we know brienne has beaten both the hound and the lorris and is there fore a very skilled fighter. Im not saying its an instant victory. We know logan can take alot of punishment even when hes not at full healing factor. Fighting JUST one of the cleganes maybe, fighting 2 cleganes hes still got a chance, but throw in the prodigy that is jaime lannister and i dont see how he can pull through.

The problem is still the slowness of the entire cinematic universe. Brienne got 2-moved by Arya (a smaller, weaker, slower, less skilled, less powerful, less reach sword fighter with an even more fragile weapon than Wolvie's bone claws) and even seemingly "lost" the practice duel to her when it seemed like she was going mostly serious (or maybe she just likes to grunt, I dunno), all from the virtue of Arya's supposed speed (w/c is, again, slower than Wolverine or his opponents, even the fodder ones) and unconventional fighting style (duh Wolverine).

It's not gonna be easy, no doubt. Even I will admit that Wolverine is not doing this easily and may well lose. But the idea that this will be a "massacre" or that he would "have no options" is ludicrous. Wolverine has options and has solid advantages that may tip the fight in his favor:

-His superior speed and mobility will dictate the pace of the fight as well as the points of engagement (this is a HUGE deal as this would mean he can go 2v1 or 1v1 instead of 3v1 if he plays his cards right).
-His superior skill will allow him to score hits against the slower opponents while simply avoiding Jamie (the Mountain is huge so all he has to do is put the -Mountain between himself and Jamie/Hound).
-Injuries will not slow him down. While even minor cuts will weaken his opponents.
-Armor weighs them down, slows them down somewhat and makes them exert 2x the effort just to move. Time is on Wolverine's side.
-He does not need to score a killshot to win. Just minor stabs to the arms and legs is enough. They need to hit him square on with a decap or dismemberment attack (w/c is not only hard to do against a moving opponent, but from the videos shown, they telegraph this and execute this slow AF and it would be easy for Wolverine to avoid these)

If Wolverine fights stupid, sure he'll lose. No doubt about it. I've provided proof, however, that he is not stupid.
If Wolverine fights smart, dictating the pace of the fight and performs hit and run (something he, as well as everyone, is capable of) or fights defensively (something he's done when facing multiple opponents via the video I showed), then he has a good chance of injuring one or 2 down before even getting tagged, and as long as the injury isn't a full decap or dismemberment, then it is his fight to lose.

omgchos

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The problem is still the slowness of the entire cinematic universe. Brienne got 2-moved by Arya (a smaller, weaker, slower, less skilled, less powerful, less reach sword fighter with an even more fragile weapon than Wolvie's bone claws) and even seemingly "lost" the practice duel to her when it seemed like she was going mostly serious (or maybe she just likes to grunt, I dunno), all from the virtue of Arya's supposed speed (w/c is, again, slower than Wolverine or his opponents, even the fodder ones) and unconventional fighting style (duh Wolverine).

It's not gonna be easy, no doubt. Even I will admit that Wolverine is not doing this easily and may well lose. But the idea that this will be a "massacre" or that he would "have no options" is ludicrous. Wolverine has options and has solid advantages that may tip the fight in his favor:

-His superior speed and mobility will dictate the pace of the fight as well as the points of engagement (this is a HUGE deal as this would mean he can go 2v1 or 1v1 instead of 3v1 if he plays his cards right).
-His superior skill will allow him to score hits against the slower opponents while simply avoiding Jamie (the Mountain is huge so all he has to do is put the -Mountain between himself and Jamie/Hound).
-Injuries will not slow him down. While even minor cuts will weaken his opponents.
-Armor weighs them down, slows them down somewhat and makes them exert 2x the effort just to move. Time is on Wolverine's side.
-He does not need to score a killshot to win. Just minor stabs to the arms and legs is enough. They need to hit him square on with a decap or dismemberment attack (w/c is not only hard to do against a moving opponent, but from the videos shown, they telegraph this and execute this slow AF and it would be easy for Wolverine to avoid these)

If Wolverine fights stupid, sure he'll lose. No doubt about it. I've provided proof, however, that he is not stupid.
If Wolverine fights smart, dictating the pace of the fight and performs hit and run (something he, as well as everyone, is capable of) or fights defensively (something he's done when facing multiple opponents via the video I showed), then he has a good chance of injuring one or 2 down before even getting tagged, and as long as the injury isn't a full decap or dismemberment, then it is his fight to lose.
Like i said im mostly with you. Just not all the way lol.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by omgchos
Like i said im mostly with you. Just not all the way lol.

So long as we agree that Wolverine doesn't fight only one way and that he has solid options/advantages that may make him win, then we good. :P

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Let's get one thing straight here: I debate for the fun of it. I do not "support" characters like "some" fanboys out there (thus I am also prone to support characters that may or may not be at a disadvatage, cuz who likes to do something that has no challenge?). I'm here because I am bored. So you might want to cut down on the accusations, kiddo.

Look Kiddo! I was being general Kiddo! I wasn't necessarily taking about you kiddo!

HAHAHAHA.

I also reply cause am bored. I respect your opinion, although i don't share that wolverine is a dodger. I was raised seeing Wolverine block anything with those Adamantium claws. Wolverine isn't Wolverine for dodging and evading things. Wolverine is a Tank which can take any mother****er face on....But since they gave him bones instead of Adamantium in this thread, i can't support one of may favorite Comic Heroes.

So Kiddo! This Kiddo can't support his Superhero cause this Kiddo doesn't believe Wolverine with Bones is enough to kill Three good swordsmen kiddo! So stop judging this Kiddo Kiddo! rolling on floor laughing

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Look Kiddo! I was being general Kiddo! I wasn't necessarily taking about you kiddo!

HAHAHAHA.

I also reply cause am bored. I respect your opinion, although i don't share that wolverine is a dodger. I was raised seeing Wolverine block anything with those Adamantium claws. Wolverine isn't Wolverine for dodging and evading things. Wolverine is a Tank which can take any mother****er face on....But since they gave him bones instead of Adamantium in this thread, i can't support one of may favorite Comic Heroes.

So Kiddo! This Kiddo can't support his Superhero cause this Kiddo doesn't believe Wolverine with Bones is enough to kill Three good swordsmen kiddo! So stop judging this Kiddo Kiddo! rolling on floor laughing

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
IK but the guy keeps saying he will....Its life, there is lots of unreasonable people out there. Specially those which support their idols instead of reason.

Ok, you've gone and went full liar mode now or just someone who can't write for crap. You specifically mentioned me first and then followed it with an accusatory statement (albeit an attempt to make it a generalized passive aggresive one but even an idiot would know that the paragraph structure heavily implies that it was primarily aimed at me).

I usually give newbies a chance when it comes to debating in these forums. But it looks like you're just some socktroll after all. I'm done with the likes of you.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Ok, you've gone and went full liar mode now or just someone who can't write for crap. You specifically mentioned me first and then followed it with an accusatory statement (albeit an attempt to make it a generalized passive aggresive one but even an idiot would know that the paragraph structure heavily implies that it was primarily aimed at me).

I usually give newbies a chance when it comes to debating in thes e forums. But it looks like you're just some socktroll after all. I'm done with the likes of you.

Hahaha okay i admit it i lied! I just wanted to retract myself.

Lol you are not as much as other guys. But honestly you are unreasonable by saying Wolverine will dodge all blows like if he was flash or daredevil.

But again i respect your opinion. I also give newbies the oportunity to debate me. But i wont debate unreasonable people. People who arent willing tomreach a middle ground.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Hahaha okay i admit it i lied! I just wanted to retract myself.

Lol you are not as much as other guys. But honestly you are unreasonable by saying Wolverine will dodge all blows like if he was flash or daredevil.

But again i respect your opinion. I also give newbies the oportunity to debate me. But i wont debate unreasonable people. People who arent willing tomreach a middle ground.

Lying in a forum does not look good for your credibility on future debates, y'know. Credibility is important in a medium where none of us really knows each other personally. You might wanna think about that in the future.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Bone wolverine gets massacred!

Is not "middle ground" debating, btw. It is adapting a position where only your point/logic is acceptable to you as you are not open to listening to and accepting your opposition's points and you simply dismiss them all outright.

This is what adapting a "middle ground position" looks like:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Like I said, not saying it's going to be easy for Wolverine (and I'm open to arguments that point out that he loses and am have not even made up my mind that he wi

It places your argument at the fore yet allows for some flexibility in accepting your opponents views should they disprove your own assertions or at least be respectful enough to allow such arguments to be heard before drawing a conclusion.

Just some tips from a old debater.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Lying in a forum does not look good for your credibility on future debates, y'know. Credibility is important in a medium where none of us really knows each other personally. You might wanna think about that in the future.

Is not "middle ground" debating, btw. It is adapting a position where only your point/logic is acceptable to you as you are not open to listening to and accepting your opposition's points and you simply dismiss them all outright.

This is what adapting a "middle ground position" looks like:

It places your argument at the fore yet allows for some flexibility in accepting your opponents views should they disprove your own assertions or at least be respectful enough to allow such arguments to be heard before drawing a conclusion.

Just some tips from a old debater.

Okay i apologize. I didnt saw the importance behind an insignificant reply which isnt even part of the discussion. It was a personal comment, so i decided rather to lie than to take things personal. I dont like to take things personal in debates. Dont take me wrong though, i never lie in my points when debating.

Middle ground is a point in where both sides agree to be in. Call it adapting a position or being flexible. Its just different words. I am a flexible debater, but i wont be flexible if my counterpart isnt.

Thanks for the advice, its always appreciated.

An advice of my own, when you choose a side to support in a debate, always choose the side with more points in favour. It makes it easier to defend your decision.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
An advice of my own, when you choose a side to support in a debate, always choose the side with more points in favour. It makes it easier to defend your decision.

In debating club, we didn't always chose the positions we ourselves personally took. Nor is it necessary for you to always have to agree with something you debate for. For as long as the points you make are honest.

KingD19

How are the points not in Wolverine's favor?

You're completely ignoring -

How ploddingly slow GoT characters are in general.
How extremely slow Hound and Mountain are.
How easy it is to actually cut those three while in their armor(Oberyn sliced Gregor up easily. Jaime's uniform has his arms and legs covered in maybe hardened leather, but nothing to stop Logan from stabbing Jaime and flinging him like a rag doll(he's done that too).
Etc etc etc...

It might not be easy, but the fight ends with all three GoT people dead and Logan injured, pissed as hell, but fine.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by KingD19
How are the points not in Wolverine's favor?

You're completely ignoring -

How ploddingly slow GoT characters are in general.
How extremely slow Hound and Mountain are.
How easy it is to actually cut those three while in their armor(Oberyn sliced Gregor up easily. Jaime's uniform has his arms and legs covered in maybe hardened leather, but nothing to stop Logan from stabbing Jaime and flinging him like a rag doll(he's done that too).
Etc etc etc...

It might not be easy, but the fight ends with all three GoT people dead and Logan injured, pissed as hell, but fine.

I have given my points way before, give yourself the task of reading the previous pages before commenting. Inform yourself of the situation.

KingD19

The situation? You mean you having Night King as your signature flipping your GoT fanboy switch to the "On" position?

Yeah I know what it is. I also know you have not once in any thread given any feats, video evidence, or stated/documented facts to solidify your argument. You literally say, "Nuh uh GoT will win because this, because that". Then you never prove it and expect us to accept your word as gospel. At this point you're literally a yelling h1a8. At least he gives us the somewhat courtesy of pretending to have points to make.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by KingD19
The situation? You mean you having Night King as your signature flipping your GoT fanboy switch to the "On" position?

Yeah I know what it is. I also know you have not once in any thread given any feats, video evidence, or stated/documented facts to solidify your argument. You literally say, "Nuh uh GoT will win because this, because that". Then you never prove it and expect us to accept your word as gospel. At this point you're literally a yelling h1a8. At least he gives us the somewhat courtesy of pretending to have points to make.

Look am not gonna repeat myself all over.

If you arent interested in reading the previous replies and inform yourself then get the hell out of here.

I am not a man which wastes its time on newbies.

KingD19

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Look am not gonna repeat myself all over.

If you arent interested in reading the previous replies and inform yourself then get the hell out of here.

I am not a man which wastes its time on newbies.

How am I a newbie exactly? I've been debating here for years. You just popped up...a month or two ago? Or is this a sock account of someone we know? Either way you're an idiot, like Stealth said hahah.

StealthRanger

He sounds like BeyonderGod. Except butthurt isn't his favourite buzzword

Raptor22

Originally posted by Nibedicus

-His superior speed and mobility will dictate the pace of the fight as well as the points of engagement (this is a HUGE deal as this would mean he can go 2v1 or 1v1 instead of 3v1 if he plays his cards right).
-His superior skill will allow him to score hits against the slower opponents while simply avoiding Jamie (the Mountain is huge so all he has to do is put the -Mountain between himself and Jamie/Hound).
-Injuries will not slow him down. While even minor cuts will weaken his opponents.
-Armor weighs them down, slows them down somewhat and makes them exert 2x the effort just to move. Time is on Wolverine's side.
-He does not need to score a killshot to win. Just minor stabs to the arms and legs is enough. They need to hit him square on with a decap or dismemberment attack (w/c is not only hard to do against a moving opponent, but from the videos shown, they telegraph this and execute this slow AF and it would be easy for Wolverine to avoid these). come on Nib, u'r scenerio is just ludicris. Speed, quickness, endurance, weak points in armor, bleeding out opponents, just plain silly.

It's not like the exact thing was done to a fully armored GoT knight, by a smaller, faster, unarmored opponent, in almost the exact manner u'r describing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NN30YMzja6Y

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by KingD19
How am I a newbie exactly? I've been debating here for years. You just popped up...a month or two ago? Or is this a sock account of someone we know? Either way you're an idiot, like Stealth said hahah.

You are have been here for years? WELL it doesnt look like NEWBIE.

Like all noobs, cursing is their only defence. Nooob.

UCanShootMyNova

Wolverine stomps.

HulkIsHulk

I am not yet decided on any side winning, but I would like to address some points used against Wolverine. I'm gonna just quote the general idea

So? It's not like he can't heal them back or something. And it's not like Sabretooth can't punch through concrete

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. A sword hit from Jaime would definetly break bones! The reason because weve not seen himnto is because in all his fights his blows have been blocked by other swords. Once Wolverine getd a broken arm or leg his movility will decrease! It only takes ONE blow from Sandor or Gregor to lose a limb. The probabilities of Wolverine getting broken bones is high

So you're basically saying Jaime is capable of something he has never shown to be able to. Gotcha.

I've seen you keep insisting Wolverine's bones and claws are fragile, with nothing to back up those claims. Even Sabretooth who broke his claws, had legit superstrength, and was consistently capable of oneshot killing humans, casual necksnaps and ripped out John Wraith's spine and restrain Weapon XI. He landed several blows on Wolverine in their fight but only two broke bones. Then Logan got crushed by several logs, thrown into a truck sent flying up but did not break anything there either.

https://youtu.be/0N7ZDpIbx10

Also some more against your stance on his '''fragile''' skeleton

At 0:36 he gets hit by a cannonball at point blank range yet is able to withstand that

Also, strength feats

At 0:24 he hits an incoming soldier with his rifle butt so hard that the soldiers neck tears out

At 1:08 using his rifle he smacks a soldier hard enough to send him flying into few more incoming soldier and drop them all

Then he punches out another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3lP3Sr0yKs

Then in the flashback scene in The Wolverine his bone claws are shown to cut into rock. And that is without DOPF

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
I am not yet decided on any side winning, but I would like to address some points used against Wolverine. I'm gonna just quote the general idea

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
So? It's not like he can't heal them back or something. And it's not like Sabretooth can't punch through concrete

He can heal them back, but it takes him a lot of time. Once he loses his claws, then he is vulnerable.

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
So you're basically saying Jaime is capable of something he has never shown to be able to. Gotcha.

What would happen if you were to block a sword with your arm? It doesn't need to be shown on screen, it's just a matter of logic.

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
I've seen you keep insisting Wolverine's bones and claws are fragile, with nothing to back up those claims. Even Sabretooth who broke his claws, had legit superstrength, and was consistently capable of oneshot killing humans, casual necksnaps and ripped out John Wraith's spine and restrain Weapon XI. He landed several blows on Wolverine in their fight but only two broke bones. Then Logan got crushed by several logs, thrown into a truck sent flying up but did not break anything there either.

https://youtu.be/0N7ZDpIbx10

Also some more against your stance on his '''fragile''' skeleton

At 0:36 he gets hit by a cannonball at point blank range yet is able to withstand that

Also, strength feats

At 0:24 he hits an incoming soldier with his rifle butt so hard that the soldiers neck tears out

At 1:08 using his rifle he smacks a soldier hard enough to send him flying into few more incoming soldier and drop them all

Then he punches out another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3lP3Sr0yKs

Then in the flashback scene in The Wolverine his bone claws are shown to cut into rock. And that is without DOPF

They are bone claws.

Again block a sword with a bone, what would be the outcome?

There is no evidence as to say that Wolverine bone's are any different from normal bones.

His bones will break and fracture if you hit him with a Sword.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
There is no evidence as to say that Wolverine bone's are any different from normal bones.

Wolverine (bone claw version) was tackled hard enough to throw him 20 feet back (would have crushed any human's ribs and back), tossed so hard he spun around a few times before hitting a log loader's claw back first (would have easily crushed his spine), crushed under thousands of pounds of logs (and they fell on him not just rolled over him), got tossed in front of a moving truck so hard that he bounced off the truck's fender, violently bounced around on top of the logs it was carrying and landed onto some metal tracks.

Source: Wolverine vs Sabertooth fight.

These injuries would have easily crushed (easily) crushed a human being to an extent that his guts would spill out and break every rib, spine, limbs and rupture multiple (if not every single) organs.

Any GoT character would have easily died to any of these injuries (due to them sticking to a certain level of "realism" wink

.

If those are not proof of his bones being >>> human bones. I don't know what is.

Edit. Also, I already covered this in one of my posts (sigh).

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Wolverine (bone claw version) was tackled hard enough to throw him 20 feet back (would have crushed any human's ribs and back), tossed so hard he spun around a few times before hitting a log loader's claw back first (would have easily crushed his spine), crushed under thousands of pounds of logs (and they fell on him not just rolled over him), got tossed in front of a moving truck so hard that he bounced off the truck's fender, violently bounced around on top of the logs it was carrying and landed onto some metal tracks.

Source: Wolverine vs Sabertooth fight.

These injuries would have easily crushed (easily) crushed a human being to an extent that his guts would spill out and break every rib, spine, limbs and rupture multiple (if not every single) organs.

Any GoT character would have easily died to any of these injuries (due to them sticking to a certain level of "realism" wink

.

If those are not proof of his bones being >>> human bones. I don't know what is.

Edit. Also, I already covered this in one of my posts (sigh).

And is there evidence they didnt broke?

They might as well have! But we all know wolverine isnt the type of guy which will become useless due to a couple of broken bones.

Wolverine might have gotten fracture ribs, or bones. But isnt enough to stop him.

Also remember that this time he isnt going to be tossed. This time they are going to blow him with Sharp Swords. So those bones WILL get cut.

Unless you have evidence that those bones can resist swords then Wolverine is still on the losing side.

Nibedicus

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And is there evidence they didnt broke?

They might as well have! But we all know wolverine isnt the type of guy which will become useless due to a couple of broken bones.

Wolverine might have gotten fracture ribs, or bones. But isnt enough to stop him.

Also remember that this time he isnt going to be tossed. This time they are going to blow him with Sharp Swords. So those bones WILL get cut.

Unless you have evidence that those bones can resist swords then Wolverine is still on the losing side.

Again, had the bones been broken the way normal bones would break in these instances, it would have been messily evident (twisted limbs, bones sticking out of or thru one's skin, guts spilled out, his body flattened out, etc - you know, gross stuff). Also, he was able to stand up and keep fighting after a few of these. Again, had he suffered broken bones (to the extent that these impacts would inflict to a normal human body) standing up would have been impossible (broken spine would have paralyzed him).These are not the types of impacts that only leaves minor unseen fractures. He would have been a twisted mess. He had none of those. Either his regen is so good that his bones stitch as soon as they are broken or they are much more durable than human bones.

Now now. Don't be stawmanning me. I replied to your comment that Wolverine's bones had no evidence of being any better than human bones. I merely provided evidence to correct this misconception.

As to the relevance to this, pertaining to the debate, I point you to the arguments I made 2-3 pages ago (as, at this point, I reallllyy don't repeat those same arguments again as they are quite long). Hint: had to do with the types of sword cuts needed.

Josh_Alexander

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Again, had the bones been broken the way normal bones would break in these instances, it would have been messily evident (twisted limbs, bones sticking out of or thru one's skin, guts spilled out, his body flattened out, etc - you know, gross stuff). Also, he was able to stand up and keep fighting after a few of these. Again, had he suffered broken bones (to the extent that these impacts would inflict to a normal human body) standing up would have been impossible (broken spine would have paralyzed him).These are not the types of impacts that only leaves minor unseen fractures. He would have been a twisted mess. He had none of those. Either his regen is so good that his bones stitch as soon as they are broken or they are much more durable than human bones.

Now now. Don't be stawmanning me. I replied to your comment that Wolverine's bones had no evidence of being any better than human bones. I merely provided evidence to correct this misconception.

As to the relevance to this, pertaining to the debate, I point you to the arguments I made 2-3 pages ago (as, at this point, I reallllyy don't repeat those same arguments again as they are quite long). Hint: had to do with the types of sword cuts needed.

Nevertheless is still not evidence enough to say his bones can resist a sword!

I wont repeat myself neither. Bring me evidence that bone claws can hold a sword and then we can continue this discussion.

Until then Wolverine loses.

The reason i am supporting GoT characters, is because i know Wolverines bones wont endure a sword! If you can show me that they can, then i will change my mind.