Did Islam take a wrong turn?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Lestov16
http://nation.com.pk/blogs/22-Feb-2016/ibn-rushd-vs-ghazali-did-the-muslim-world-take-a-wrong-turn

Basically, the article discusses the competing philosophers of two influential Muslim philosophers, and how Ibn Rushd's rationalist views were ignored by Al Ghazali's sharia beliefs, and how that effected the secular development of both Islam and Christian Europe. I thought this would be a good article for those wondering why Islam is so dogmatic.

Thorne
it took a wrong turn by being a fake religion

Adam_PoE
Did this thread get posted in the wrong forum?

Sable
Does it matter?

MythLord
Yeah, and at Albuquerque no less.

Surtur
"I am sure these days many decent Muslim men and women often wonder why countries with Muslim majority are so backwards technologically, militarily and politically compared with the nations of West?"

Maybe Allah has an explanation. What could it be about this religion that makes it so backwards?

Afro Cheese
This is a good question. Ignore the haters. I haven't read the article yet but I will. But it also reminded me of this video.

fDAT98eEN5Q

Thorne
Originally posted by Surtur
What could it be about this religion that makes it so backwards?

maybe because its based on a twisted view of the bible

and ishmael and all his descendants are jealous of the jews

Surtur
The "wrong turn" was the creation of Islam.

YousufKhan1212
Originally posted by Thorne
it took a wrong turn by being a fake religion

Patient_Leech
Islam is resistant to reform because sharia is so intertwined with politics and the state.

Surtur
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Islam is resistant to reform because sharia is so intertwined with politics and the state.

Lies and nonsense. No doubt this upstanding Muslim citizen that beheaded someone a few years ago can be reformed.

Police reveal what Muslim man said after beheading co-worker in Oklahoma

You know what I feel would help him reform? A firing squad.

Patient_Leech
^ Shit like that is going to make liberals even more afraid of admitting the connection between behavior like this and Islamic teachings. Because the guy said he thought he was being oppressed.

Scribble
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
This is a good question. Ignore the haters. I haven't read the article yet but I will. But it also reminded me of this video.

fDAT98eEN5Q Anyone who thinks that Islam is entirely barbaric should research the Golden Age of Islam. Modern medicine, hospitals, mathematics, education, politics, philosophy, architecture; the Golden Age of Islam was an incredibly important and influential part of human history. Sick people got treatment regardless of class, gender or religion, religious freedom was permitted, anyone could attend university so long as they could support themselves through their studies. In fact, the oldest university in the world that still hands out degrees is from the GAoI, in Morocco, I believe (might be wrong there).


Then that ****er Genghis Khan came in, sacked Baghdad, destroyed the complex political systems in place, and from there rose the prevalent form of Islam found in the middle east today, which came from the literalist and fundamentalist side of Islam.


So basically, if you want someone to blame for Islamic terrorism, blame Genghis.

Surtur
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
^ Shit like that is going to make liberals even more afraid of admitting the connection between behavior like this and Islamic teachings. Because the guy said he thought he was being oppressed.

Which is always strange given that in a lot of muslim countries females are way way more oppressed lol. They mutilate genitals and f*ck them as children. But meh, evil white people.

Surtur
Originally posted by Scribble
Anyone who thinks that Islam is entirely barbaric should research the Golden Age of Islam. Modern medicine, hospitals, mathematics, education, politics, philosophy, architecture; the Golden Age of Islam was an incredibly important and influential part of human history. Sick people got treatment regardless of class, gender or religion, religious freedom was permitted, anyone could attend university so long as they could support themselves through their studies. In fact, the oldest university in the world that still hands out degrees is from the GAoI, in Morocco, I believe (might be wrong there).


Then that ****er Genghis Khan came in, sacked Baghdad, destroyed the complex political systems in place, and from there rose the prevalent form of Islam found in the middle east today, which came from the literalist and fundamentalist side of Islam.


So basically, if you want someone to blame for Islamic terrorism, blame Genghis.

Next time London gets attacked I will be sure to shake my fist in the general direction of Genghis Khans ghost. If you and I both do it...it will send an even stronger message.

Thorne
dude theyre doing that shit in this country now and libs say ****ing nothing

Surtur
Originally posted by Thorne
dude theyre doing that shit in this country now and libs say ****ing nothing

This is a lie. They don't say nothing. They just say it's workplace violence.

Patient_Leech
Originally posted by Surtur
Which is always strange given that in a lot of muslim countries females are way way more oppressed lol. They mutilate genitals and f*ck them as children. But meh, evil white people.


Yeah. sad

Scribble
Originally posted by Surtur
Next time London gets attacked I will be sure to shake my fist in the general direction of Genghis Khans ghost. If you and I both do it...it will send an even stronger message. Well, I mean this was in the 13th Century, so maybe we can cut Genghis a tiny bit of slack. Maybe. He was a shifty **** though.

Scribble
By the way, are we going to discuss the historical changes in the system of Islam, or just make this another **** The Mussies thread? Because there are actually plenty of those already.

Surtur
Originally posted by Scribble
Well, I mean this was in the 13th Century, so maybe we can cut Genghis a tiny bit of slack. Maybe. He was a shifty **** though.

It was a different time, true. I call that the "Margaret Sanger syndrome".

YousufKhan1212
Originally posted by Scribble
Anyone who thinks that Islam is entirely barbaric should research the Golden Age of Islam. Modern medicine, hospitals, mathematics, education, politics, philosophy, architecture; the Golden Age of Islam was an incredibly important and influential part of human history. Sick people got treatment regardless of class, gender or religion, religious freedom was permitted, anyone could attend university so long as they could support themselves through their studies. In fact, the oldest university in the world that still hands out degrees is from the GAoI, in Morocco, I believe (might be wrong there).


Then that ****er Genghis Khan came in, sacked Baghdad, destroyed the complex political systems in place, and from there rose the prevalent form of Islam found in the middle east today, which came from the literalist and fundamentalist side of Islam.


So basically, if you want someone to blame for Islamic terrorism, blame Genghis.

No, you don't want to blame Genghis, you want to blame Muhammad who himself was a savage terrorist.

Scribble
Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
No, you don't want to blame Genghis, you want to blame Muhammad who himself was a savage terrorist. The Genghis thing was a joke.


That being said, whilst the origins of Islam are undeniable, that doesn't refute the fact that Islam was, in its golden age, progressive and accepting. Those days are long gone, though.


By the way, where in the north are you from? I lived in Leeds up until just recently

Surtur
Originally posted by Scribble
By the way, are we going to discuss the historical changes in the system of Islam, or just make this another **** The Mussies thread? Because there are actually plenty of those already.

You want to see something depressing?

hNjae521qa8

It's a rebel media video, but the depressing part is the video within the video.

Nibedicus
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, and at Albuquerque no less.

That turn is very treacherous.

Scribble
Iran pre-revolution is probably the most fascinating (and depressing) one. Obviously things weren't perfect with the Shah, in fact they were pretty bad, it was still a dictatorship and political dissidence was ruthlessly expunged. But you know, at least women could like, walk about places, if they wanted to, and choose their own clothes and stuff.


(((Just a quick point, the second sequence of that video has clearly taken the very worst stuff they could, whilst the first sequence used the best footage they could. There is still a vast difference between the time periods, but the video is using exaggeration and pathos to sell their message here. But what else can you expect from Rebel Media?)))

Surtur
I will grant you that it is the worst and best, but it still gives you an idea of what has been stripped away.

Scribble
Yeah, all you need to see are pictures of pre-revolution Iran and the message gets across imo

Surtur
Indeed it looks like a place one might actually like to go.

ArtificialGlory
Islamism is bad for you. Don't do Islamism, kids.

YousufKhan1212
Originally posted by Scribble
The Genghis thing was a joke.


That being said, whilst the origins of Islam are undeniable, that doesn't refute the fact that Islam was, in its golden age, progressive and accepting. Those days are long gone, though.


By the way, where in the north are you from? I lived in Leeds up until just recently

Oh OK. I was only talking about Muhammad's lifetime.

I'm from Lancashire.

Surtur
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Islamism is bad for you. Don't do Islamism, kids.

Like super duper bad. No booze. No bacon. What a horrible way to live. A tragedy.

YousufKhan1212
Originally posted by Surtur
Like super duper bad. No booze. No bacon. What a horrible way to live. A tragedy.

It's worse than Zak Snyder.

Surtur
Do you guys think if time travel was a thing and Muhammad traveled to the current era and he tried a bacon cheeseburger would he just be all "f*ck Islam, f*ck that shit" ? I think maybe he would. But then he'd regret it because with the acceptance of bacon comes accepting you don't bang child brides.

Poor guy sad

Sable
Originally posted by Thorne
it took a wrong turn by being a fake religion

Yup it started with Mohammed a peadofile.

Surtur
Originally posted by Sable
Yup it started with Mohammed a peadofile.

In the modern era big M would either be a Hollywood star or he'd work in the IT department for the DNC lol.

Verifier
Originally posted by Lestov16

Basically, the article discusses the competing philosophers of two influential Muslim philosophers, and how Ibn Rushd's rationalist views were ignored by Al Ghazali's sharia beliefs, and how that effected the secular development of both Islam and Christian Europe. I thought this would be a good article for those wondering why Islam is so dogmatic.

Critics of al-Ghazali argue that he challenged philosophers on the grounds that the philosophers could not lay down rational explanations for metaphysical arguments.

However, interesting discoveries in the second half of the twentieth century by historians of science challenged many of the assertions of this classical narrative. An example of such discoveries is the strong connections between Ibn al-Shatir, a famous Damascene astronomer of the fourteenth century, and the Renaissance astronomer Copernicus (Roberts, 1957).

If Ghazali had killed science in Islam in the twelfth century, then al-Shatir's work from the fourteenth century could not have been so influential on Copernicus's work. Saliba challenges almost all of the major tenets of the classical narrative on the basis of (1) a critical examination of historical evidence, some of which is quite recent, and (2) the results of his own long-term research in Islamic astronomy.

First, the European paradigm of conflict between religion and science does not really apply to the Islamic world. The religion of Islam encourages rational and scientific inquiry. Therefore, Muslims see no insurmountable contradictions between their faith and natural laws. Hence, studying religion and studying natural sciences does not create a conflict for Muslims.

Secondly, many of the scientists in the Islamic world were also religious authorities at the same time. A few examples among such scholars are Ibn al-Nafis, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi, Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi ,and Ibn al-Shatir who lived in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries and made important contributions to such diverse scientific disciplines as mathematics, astronomy, medicine, physics and philosophy. In fact, these scholars were regarded primarily as religious figures by the general public with side interests in sciences. Early Muslim scholars did not hesitate to acquire scientific knowledge wherever they could find it, whether it be in Indian civilization, in Greek civilization, or in Persian civilization. Not only did they acquire these sciences through translation, but they also critically examined them in a comprehensive way. Making corrections and improvements and even introducing new disciplines, they showed a high degree of ownership and maturity. This led to a remarkable period of creativity and rapid advancements in many scientific disciplines in the Islamic world beginning as early as the eighth century (Saliba, 2007).



Saliba also provides examples from other disciplines, such as medicine, that show that a high level of scientific production took place in more than one discipline in the Islamic world in the post-Ghazali period.

Verifier

Verifier

Lestov16
Only created this thread to discuss the history of the Islamic Golden Age (which preserved the works of Greek Philosophers thus allowing the European Rennaisance and made various scientific strides which are vital today)

As far as Islam as a religion goes, I'm ambivalent about it. In terms of people having freedom of religion, I think Islam must be tolerated as to not create hypocrisy, and as a religion is nothing more than the subjective interpretation of its follower. Personally, I think Abraham was a scummy piece of shit who nearly killed his son, the ultimate evil act, for an invisible being, thus creating the concept that religion overrides rationality, and as such, I think all 3 abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are harmful ignorant bullshit. Which makes comments about Muhammad's pedophilia (no worse than Abraham's near child sacrifice) or islam being a "fake" religion hilarious to me.

Besides Trump himself called Islam one of the great faiths while in Saudi Arabia. We should support the President's opinion on this matter

Sable
Near sacrifice. Because God told him to. Allah didn't tell Mohammad to marry 13 year olds did he?

Lestov16
Originally posted by Sable
Near sacrifice. Because God told him to. Allah didn't tell Mohammad to marry 13 year olds.

Because God told him to? WTF does that even mean?

Sable
Oh boy, walking away.

YousufKhan1212
Yeah, no. Muhammad was a paedophile:



Aisha claims that she was engaged to Muhammad when she was 6 years old, and she moved in with Muhammad when he was 9 years old. Muslim apologists argue that Muhammad married Aisha at such a young age because women didn't live as long in the 7th century, so marriages were different - this partially correct. However, young girls getting married at the age of 6 was not normal in those times either, so Muhammad's marriage in Aisha is still an act of paedophillia.

Scribble
Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Oh OK. I was only talking about Muhammad's lifetime.

I'm from Lancashire. I lived in Kendal for a while, which has a Lancaster postcode, although it's actually in Cumbria. Weird shit, never quite understood that.

Sable
Someone had a etantrum

Surtur

Todd1700
This implies there is a religion that isn't fake.

Surtur
Originally posted by Lestov16
As far as Islam as a religion goes, I'm ambivalent about it. In terms of people having freedom of religion, I think Islam must be tolerated as to not create hypocrisy, and as a religion is nothing more than the subjective interpretation of its follower.

You say "Islam must be tolerated" but why? Bad ideas shouldn't be tolerated. Islam is the mother load of bad ideas(Sam Harris ftw).

Don't make the mistake of thinking all religions are equal.



I find your lack of understanding the differences hilarious. Abraham isn't the figure Christians tend to hold up or aspire to be like. That would be Jesus. Jesus is just plain better than Muhammad. This is a fact. Non-pedophile non-warlord>>>>>>warlord pedophile.

In Islam, even the moderates can find it disrespectful if you draw a picture of their prince pedophile.



Indeed? So why only on this matter?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.