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Realizing they can't beat Jiren on their own and stakes of the tournament, rather than go limit-breaker, Goku and Vegeta do the fusion dance.

http://pm1.narvii.com/6406/1adc2d55ec4a587d148122cf5b7ee34189644366_hq.jpg

Who wins?

We haven't seen much from Jiren yet but looking at the previews, I feel confident that Jiren would destroy Gogeta. Especially if Jiren gives Goku limit breaker a run for his money.

SSb most likely. As he was able to casually own Zamasu.

SSB Gogeta

Jiren, because if Potara can only go for like 5 minutes at ssb, and fusion dance can barely handle ssj3 for 5 minutes, then fusion dance would pop as soon as they went ssb.

But forgetting the time limit and power they can't apparently can't wield for plot reasons, Gogeta would wreck Jiren. Cause there isn't much difference in power between Goku and Vegeta so the decrease of Goku down to Vegeta wouldn't matter much.

Assuming no time limit, SSB Gogeta probably destroys him.

The best we know is that Limit Breaker is probably >> KKx20 SSB. But fusion shits on KK in terms of power boost by orders of magnitude.

SSB Gogeta with utter ease.

We don't know that

I disagree. Jiren stomps tbh. Zamasu gave him a good fight and Jiren would wreck him. I feel confident Limit Breaker is more powerful than Vegeta and Goku fusion.

Yea limit breaker is a whole new ballgame

I agree as well. But they are at a much higher SSB level than they were when they fought Zamasu. This fusion would pack a much larger punch.

We kinda need to see how badly Jiren stomps them.

Also this Limit Breaker name. They just need to make this his last form where he can break his limits no matter the opponents. Kinda hax but it puts a stop to the million different transformations. But it is basically the peak saiyan form for battle.

Why not throw in unlimited power source too lol

Originally posted by carver9
I disagree. Jiren stomps tbh. Zamasu gave him a good fight and Jiren would wreck him. I feel confident Limit Breaker is more powerful than Vegeta and Goku fusion.

Depends if we take the manga or anime. Base Vegetto > Merged Zamasu in the manga. And Goku + Vegeta now >>> Goku and Vegeta in the Black Arc.

Limit Breaker would have to be more than a 1000x increase from SSB for Limit Breaker Goku to rival SSB Gogeta, (since base fusion seems to be ridiculously stronger than SSJB, which is in turn far beyond SSJ3, which is a 400x boost).

SSB Gogeta defeats Jiren. Especially if he can go KK x20.

Originally posted by bbrem123
I agree as well. But they are at a much higher SSB level than they were when they fought Zamasu. This fusion would pack a much larger punch.

We kinda need to see how badly Jiren stomps them.

Also this Limit Breaker name. They just need to make this his last form where he can break his limits no matter the opponents. Kinda hax but it puts a stop to the million different transformations. But it is basically the peak saiyan form for battle.

Why not throw in unlimited power source too lol

Agreed.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Depends if we take the manga or anime. Base Vegetto > Merged Zamasu in the manga. And Goku + Vegeta now >>> Goku and Vegeta in the Black Arc.

Limit Breaker would have to be more than a 1000x increase from SSB for Limit Breaker Goku to rival SSB Gogeta, (since base fusion seems to be ridiculously stronger than SSJB, which is in turn far beyond SSJ3, which is a 400x boost).

SSB Gogeta defeats Jiren. Especially if he can go KK x20.

You helped my argument. Goku is>> than what he was before and this is what happened when Goku soloed Zamasu.

https://youtu.be/Fqdon7ffc5U

Also, we are using the fusion that we seen on panel, not the one that we are imagining now. The one that fought Merge Zamasu would get destroyed by Jiren. Also, 1000 times amp for Gogeta? Where are you getting that from? That can't be real.

Originally posted by carver9
You helped my argument. Goku is>> than what he was before and this is what happened when Goku soloed Zamasu.

https://youtu.be/Fqdon7ffc5U

Also, we are using the fusion that we seen on panel, not the one that we are imagining now.

Wrong. The OP specifically notes that this is Goku and Vegeta as of the ToP, not as of the Zamasu Arc. SSB Gogeta wasn't even in the Zamasu arc.

Originally posted by carver9
Also, 1000 times amp for Gogeta? Where are you getting that from? That can't be real.

I was getting it from Base Vegetto being far more powerful than regular SSB Goku/Vegeta in the manga, SSB being far more powerful than SS3, which is a 400 times boost. Therefore the Vegetto boost is above 1000x.

We see the same thing in the Buu Arc, with Base Vegetto (yes I know it's filler) and SSJ1 Vegetto absolutely stomping Buuhan without effort, whereas SSJ3 Goku (which again is a 400 times boost from base Goku) was getting shit on by Buuhan.

Also in the Buu arc, the fusion of Goten and Trunks, which is absolutely pathetic compared to the fusion of Goku and Vegeta, was still about 8 times as strong as Goku, (given that SSJ Gotenks is roughly on par with SSJ3 Goku in the Buu Arc). A fusion dance between Goku and Vegeta would obviously be >>>>>>>>>>>>> 8x Goku. There's no way Limit Breaker is a multi-hundred times boost to SSJB.

^ Perfectly reasonable analysis. Of course Carver will argue against it.

After the Special...Jiren probably unleashes the holy wrath of God on him.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also in the Buu arc, the fusion of Goten and Trunks, which is absolutely pathetic compared to the fusion of Goku and Vegeta, was still about 8 times as strong as Goku, (given that SSJ Gotenks is roughly on par with SSJ3 Goku in the Buu Arc). A fusion dance between Goku and Vegeta would obviously be >>>>>>>>>>>>> 8x Goku. There's no way Limit Breaker is a multi-hundred times boost to SSJB.

I'm glad we found out this post was uncalled for. Jiren stomps, with extreme, extreme, ease.

Uncalled for? I was going by the information we had at the time.

Jiren shook a multiversal/megaversal space, he stomps.

SSB Gogeta stomps.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Jiren shook a multiversal/megaversal space, he stomps.

At his base. This isn't even a fight. I'm sure he is going to power up to his limit the next time he face Goku.

Originally posted by Inedian
SSB Gogeta stomps.

Why? Because Zamasu did well against him? Do you think Goku Black can beat Jiren?

Originally posted by carver9
Do you think Goku Black can beat Jiren?

Nope, Jiren beats Black. But in ToP where there are rules... Jiren is obviously curious about maximum power of opponent. Goku somehow managed to be at least rival of Jiren in his LBGoku form... ToP would be ideal for Black to reach and exceed Jiren and he would do it quicker than Goku. But if Jiren goes for a kill, than it would be troublesome for Black.

Still, it has nothing to do with Black. SSB Gogeta stomps Jiren.

Originally posted by Inedian
Nope, Jiren beats Black. But in ToP where there are rules... Jiren is obviously curious about maximum power of opponent. Goku somehow managed to be at least rival of Jiren in his LBGoku form... ToP would be ideal for Black to reach and exceed Jiren and he would do it quicker than Goku. But if Jiren goes for a kill, than it would be troublesome for Black.

Still, it has nothing to do with Black. SSB Gogeta stomps Jiren.

Jiren hasn't even used his max power yet. He was holding back. This version of Goku kills Gogeta as well...easily.

Goku's boost wasnt a simple one he absorbed a genkidama powered by lots of strong fighters. He is prolly reaching God of Destruction lvls now but when Jiren got serious he 1 shot him.

Limit Breaker could be above Gogeta Imo since it isnt just a simple boost like ssj2 to ssj.

Jiren should easily beat Gogeta.

Jiren beats Gogeta almost as badly as Superman does.

Almost.

Originally posted by cdtm
Jiren beats Gogeta almost as badly as Superman does.

Almost.

How does Superman pubic hair look?

Originally posted by Estacado
Goku's boost wasnt a simple one he absorbed a genkidama powered by lots of strong fighters. He is prolly reaching God of Destruction lvls now but when Jiren got serious he 1 shot him.

Limit Breaker could be above Gogeta Imo since it isnt just a simple boost like ssj2 to ssj.

Jiren should easily beat Gogeta.

The Spirit Bomb only allowed him to fight for a little longer. It was actually not the reason he was as strong as Jiren. They even commented that the spirt bomb power would not make him Jiren level.

Also he was one shot because he ran completely out of energy. Not that he was inferior.

They even show his eyes go black before the punch lands.

Spirit Bomb only helped Goku to reach deeper level of his potential and he did it with his own will... that was it. It was Goku own power that was at least on some level of Jiren (I think Jiren wasn't using full power at all against LBGoku).

I agree. UI Goku and Jiren were not going full power at all.

Jiren wasn't using all of his power but I think Goku was. Jiren power is frightening. They are going to have to jump him to win. I hope Gohan get a new transformation and beat Jiren.

Originally posted by carver9
How does Superman pubic hair look?

Goku would know, wouldn't he? After all those times Supes wtfrapestomped him.

Originally posted by carver9
Jiren wasn't using all of his power but I think Goku was. Jiren power is frightening. They are going to have to jump him to win. I hope Gohan get a new transformation and beat Jiren.

Some Carver logic right there.

Goku clearly didn't even consciously know what he was doing, and was outright stated to be out of power if not for the genkei dama boost, yet he went all out.

Originally posted by cdtm
Goku would know, wouldn't he? After all those times Supes wtfrapestomped him.

I think You know more than anyone. You think about him when he isn't even involved.

Originally posted by cdtm
Some Carver logic right there.

Goku clearly didn't even consciously know what he was doing, and was outright stated to be out of power if not for the genkei dama boost, yet he went all out.

So he was holding back? What makes you say this? Do you know what holding back means?

Re-read what I said.

Goku was holding back until he realized he was losing his power, and it was just to late for him to do anything at that point.

I'm not sure a term like "holding back" or "all out" applies to a form he doesn't even understand enough to discribe, much less control.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm not sure a term like "holding back" or "all out" applies to a form he doesn't even understand enough to discribe, much less control. Agreed. At his current state with the form. I mean there was obviously a clear difference in expression during the last few attacks vs his calm expression throughout the whole fight.

The only hit that was landed by either was when Goku stepped it up right before the power ran out. (besides the tiny scratch Goku gave Jiren on his face)

Beating the living hell out of KK x 20 Blue Goku was impressive as was holding back the spirit bomb containing the ki of Base Frieza, Gohan, Piccolo, 17, 18, Tien, Roshi and Krillin, but to be honest . . . the boost fusion offers goes way beyond that. It allowed Goten and Trunks to go from struggling with the likes of Android 18 to being on par with Super Buu. Throw in the fact that there's nothing stopping SSB Gogeta from using the Kaioken x 20 or the spirit bomb himself and I'm not really convinced that Jiren stomps when I seriously think about it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if current SSB KKx20 Gogeta were at or above Whis level. At bare minimum, it's a draw since he can teleport both himself and Jiren out the ring the minute Jiren touches him.

But now that I think about it, that's a pretty badass image. KKx20 Final Warp Kamehameha.

Gogeta should curbstomp Jiren. Because ssbkk20 Goku made Jiren move, and block, so he could obviously hurt him then, and he's not just tanking Hit's attacks. So Gogeta barring time limit deus ex machina turn back in two seconds cause of too much power, should easily win. And unlike Vegetto, DBZ Gogeta doesn't toy with his opponents. He took Janemba out instantly.

Hurt Jiren???? No. Goku new form didn't even hurt Jiren and Jiren isn't even at full power yet Jiren stomps.

Originally posted by carver9
Hurt Jiren???? No. Goku new form didn't even hurt Jiren and Jiren isn't even at full power yet Jiren stomps. Jiren went from taking every blow like it was nothing, no effort into moving to block or Dodge, to actively doing so. He's going to be knocked back and moved by Hit. It's basically like Cell letting Vegeta hit him to no avail and being stronger than Goku but needing to actual fight back. Fusion is more powerful than anything Goku can achieve on the fly himself also.

And Jiren was losing to lbGoku, if not for running out of time.

Yea Goku did not seem to be trying at all either. When he did try he started to take the advantage with actually landing blows which Jiren did not do.

UI Goku lost to time in that fight not Jiren. There is far to much unknown to say one is stronger than the other.

Originally posted by Kento
Jiren went from taking every blow like it was nothing, no effort into moving to block or Dodge, to actively doing so. He's going to be knocked back and moved by Hit. It's basically like Cell letting Vegeta hit him to no avail and being stronger than Goku but needing to actual fight back. Fusion is more powerful than anything Goku can achieve on the fly himself also.

And Jiren was losing to lbGoku, if not for running out of time.

So you are saying Gogeta can stand in one spot and tank all of Super Saiyan Blue Goku hits. Prove it. Merged Zamasu couldn't even do that.

Losing? When did LB Goku hurt Jiren. Tell me the scene number. Also, again, Jiren isn't even using a portion of his power. Whis even tells us this when he was fighting 20X Goku.

Lol...LB Goku would destroy Gogeta.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Yea Goku did not seem to be trying at all either. When he did try he started to take the advantage with actually landing blows which Jiren did not do.

UI Goku lost to time in that fight not Jiren. There is far to much unknown to say one is stronger than the other.

LB Goku would destroy Gogeta. Annihilate him.

Originally posted by carver9
So you are saying Gogeta can stand in one spot and tank all of Super Saiyan Blue Goku hits. Prove it. Merged Zamasu couldn't even do that.

Losing? When did LB Goku hurt Jiren. Tell me the scene number. Also, again, Jiren isn't even using a portion of his power. Whis even tells us this when he was fighting 20X Goku.

Lol...LB Goku would destroy Gogeta. Merged Zamasu isn't in the league of Gogeta...much less the version of Vegetto he fought. And yea, literally the fusion of Goku and Vegeta could sit there and take ANY attack by Goku and Vegeta together at their strongest.

Uhm, LB Goku is the one to land the first hit. And when he realized he was running out of time, after his eyes went to black briefly. It wasn't until LB Goku ran out of energy that Jiren was able to accomplish anything.

Also saying that half of a fusion would destroy the actual fusion is just....I don't understand that..

Yeah, I'm gonna take back what I said. Gogeta definitely still wins, lol.

Why? Fusions seem to have been nerfed pretty hardcore. Merged Zamasu was more or less equal with Vegito, yet SSBKK Goku was able to hold his own against him.

Merged Zamasu powered up after getting hit around by KK Goku. Furthermore, the manga shows that even base Vegetto is capable of blowing Merged Zamasu in half with a single attack. So yeah, still going with fusion > all.

I'll say it again.

manga=/=anime

The two have very different power levels. The anime pretty clearly showed Merged Zamasu and Vegito matching each other.

And then, of course, we have Trunks beating him. Sure, he has a spirit bomb; but look how well that worked out for Goku against Jiren.

Originally posted by Kento
Merged Zamasu isn't in the league of Gogeta...much less the version of Vegetto he fought. And yea, literally the fusion of Goku and Vegeta could sit there and take ANY attack by Goku and Vegeta together at their strongest.

Uhm, LB Goku is the one to land the first hit. And when he realized he was running out of time, after his eyes went to black briefly. It wasn't until LB Goku ran out of energy that Jiren was able to accomplish anything.

Also saying that half of a fusion would destroy the actual fusion is just....I don't understand that..

Ok, you probably need to refresh my memory on why you are hyping Gogeta. What did he Do???

Lol, landing a lick doesn't mean you damaged your opponent. Jiren didn't have a scratch on him and tanked LB hit like a pro. Show me him damaged after that attack. He tanked it "while holding back".

Ok, we are talking about the last time we seen the showing, not what we THINK they are capable of. We go by that character last showing, not Vegeta and Goku merging right now. It doesn't work like that. I think that is why your argument is all over the place. Now again, Jiren vs the LAST VERSION of Gogeta WE SAW ON PANEL, Jiren destroys him with ease.

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, you probably need to refresh my memory on why you are hyping Gogeta. What did he Do???

Lol, landing a lick doesn't mean you damaged your opponent. Jiren didn't have a scratch on him and tanked LB hit like a pro. Show me him damaged after that attack. He tanked it "while holding back".

Ok, we are talking about the last time we seen the showing, not what we THINK they are capable of. We go by that character last showing, not Vegeta and Goku merging right now. It doesn't work like that. I think that is why your argument is all over the place. Now again, Jiren vs the LAST VERSION of Gogeta WE SAW ON PANEL, Jiren destroys him with ease. Gogeta has NEVER appeared in the series outside of Movie 13, and GT. So I don't know why you keep saying what you saw on panel by him.

Jiren tanked ssj Goku attacks. Tanking a hit means you don't feel it. He obviously felt it, his face when he is kicked. And there is nothing suggesting that Jiren is holding back at all against LB.

ALSO the OP states that it's ToP Goku and Vegeta fusing. So again the last time we seen Gogeta (Which again in canon is never) means zero.

Originally posted by ares834
I'll say it again.

manga=/=anime

The two have very different power levels. The anime pretty clearly showed Merged Zamasu and Vegito matching each other.

And then, of course, we have Trunks beating him. Sure, he has a spirit bomb; but look how well that worked out for Goku against Jiren.

Where's the part where you try to prove that the anime takes precedence over the manga, or the part where this thread is referring to anime only power levels? Because you essentially just relayed basic information. Manga interpretation of fusion is far more consistent with DBZ than the anime showing, so I use the manga in this case.

And you can't equate Goku's spirit bomb against Jiren to Trunks' spirit sword. You have to draw an explicit connection between Jiren's showing against KKx20 SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegetto/powered up!Merged Zamasu. Spirit Sword!Trunks defeating Zamasu just makes the former that good, I guess.

Because Jiren's in this thread and, at this point in time, has only appeared in the anime.

If there were "explicit connections" there would be little to no room for debate.

Sure, but SSJB fusion has appeared in both the manga and the anime. I feel that the manga is more consistent with the original display of fusion than the anime adaptation.

My point is that SSJB KK Goku being able to knock around a visibly flabbergasted Merged Zamasu who wasn't really doing anything doesn't prove that SSJB Vegetto, who was beating on a powered-up Merged Zamasu, is comparable to SSJB KK Goku. For all we know, Zamasu really did power up that much to be able to compete with Vegetto. And Trunks being able to kill Zamasu with the spirit sword could really mean that Trunks with the spirit sword is that strong. Doesn't explicitly contradict the power of fusion.

For what it's worth, I feel the anime power levels in the FT arc are shit, and shouldn't be taken as a concrete indicator of the power of fusion (based on the DBS manga, DBZ, GT, Movie 13, etc).

So what we're left with as an indicator for the power of Gogeta is that kid trunks and goten fusing became about 8x more powerful than Goku. Individually, they were probably hundreds of times weaker than Goku, or at least one hundred times. So that would be something like an 800x boost. There's not really a reason to believe Limit Breaker is an 800x (and likely far higher) boost. SSJB Gogeta pounds.

We dont know for sure if Jiren is the character Whis was talking about. He said himself that he didnt know much about other universes and that it the rumors SEEM to be true. I just dont get why Quitela is so calm. Unless he has a warrior like this on his team.

Did they ever show the hidden characters?

They did. The hidden characters don't appear very intimidating, at all, but that doesn't necessarily prove anything. Jiren could end up being a red herring.

Originally posted by ares834
Why? Fusions seem to have been nerfed pretty hardcore. Merged Zamasu was more or less equal with Vegito, yet SSBKK Goku was able to hold his own against him.

I think the whole point about SSBKK Goku hold his own against Merged Zamasu was because Merged Zamasu was beginning to lose his stability and also not even close using his full power. Merged Zamasu wasn't a stable fusion. SSBKK Goku just took on him the right time and it looked like he had anything to do with it. But the main is that he wasn't a stable fusion which also Gowasu said and that their chance against MZ was because of their instability.

The most powerful version of Merged Zamasu was in the beginning of their fusion and he never even close used his full power. In anime, he was definitely in the league of SSB Vegito, in manga not even close.

Of course manga Merged Zamasu was much weaker than anime version (only counting individual Merged Zamasu). Of course SSB Vegito would easily lose against final version of Merged Zamasu in manga.

SSB Gogeta stomps Jiren.

Originally posted by bbrem123
We dont know for sure if Jiren is the character Whis was talking about. He said himself that he didnt know much about other universes and that it the rumors SEEM to be true. I just dont get why Quitela is so calm. Unless he has a warrior like this on his team.

Did they ever show the hidden characters?

Whis out right say that Jiren is more powerful than the GOD. He didn't say, I think. He said Jiren power on the level of the GOD and possibly surpassed it. This is a definite, not a possibility.

Originally posted by carver9
Whis out right say that Jiren is more powerful than the GOD. He didn't say, I think. He said Jiren power on the level of the GOD and possibly surpassed it. This is a definite, not a possibility.

He said ''perhaps'',... nothing definite about it.

Originally posted by Inedian
He said ''perhaps'',... nothing definite about it.

Perhaps to What?

Whis said Jiren "perhaps" surpassed the level of God of Destruction. But Whis definitively states Jiren is one who has reached the level of God of Destruction.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Whis said Jiren "perhaps" surpassed the level of God of Destruction. But Whis definitively states Jiren is one who has reached the level of God of Destruction.



Confirmed here...

https://youtu.be/lcDFWkpGyg0

The clown even tells us that "no one can beat Jiren" which pretty much includes himself and if he is familiar with Beerus which I'm sure he is, that includes Beerus as well. Also, Whis knows of Beerus power level as well and said that Jiren perhaps surpassed the power level of the GODS. This is the part that people are not catching on too.

Nah, because if literally nobody could beat Jiren, that would include the angels, Daishinkan, and Zen-Oh. I wouldn't put any stock in that statement.

But yeah, Jiren is most likely above Beerus.

Originally posted by carver9


Confirmed here...

https://youtu.be/lcDFWkpGyg0

The clown even tells us that "no one can beat Jiren" which pretty much includes himself and if he is familiar with Beerus which I'm sure he is, that includes Beerus as well.

Carver... you can't take everything literally. Why are you taking majority of time what is said literally (like whole infinite void being shaken and you actually took that seriously... Jiren is infinitely from being infinitely strong)? You can't take this seriously ''No one can beat Jiren''. Then Belmod he was holding his hair and was scared when LBGoku showed up.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
But yeah, Jiren is most likely above Beerus.

Nope, he isn't.

Also, Whis brought up that there exist a Universe where a mortal lives that is more powerful than the GOD of Destruction (here's the important part) and it appears that rumor is true.

Originally posted by carver9
Also, Whis brought up that there exist a Universe where a mortal lives that is more powerful than the GOD of Destruction (here's the important part) and it appears that rumor is true.

Only what Whis was sure was that Jiren reached GoD state. That he was sure... everything else he wasn't.

Originally posted by Inedian
Carver... you can't take everything literally. Why are you taking majority of time what is said literally (like whole infinite void being shaken and you actually took that literally)? You can't take this seriously ''No one can beat Jiren''. Then Belmod he was holding his hair and was scared when LBGoku showed up.

Whis KNOWS Beerus power level. Whis KNOWS the level it takes to surpass the GODS. Why would I not take his statement at face value? Am I suppose to listen to You? Jiren shook the void and yes, I'm listening to it. Again, do I ignore what was said and listen to You? Is that what you are asking me?

He was holding his hair because LB Goku was doing good against a non full powered Jiren. He didn't even damage him so I'm trying to figure out where you are going here. When LB Goku appear again, he will probably beat Jiren because the power that we saw wasn't Goku power due to him being depleted of energy when fighting Jiren. The LB we saw was Goku body feeding on the energy of the spirit bomb, to replace some of the energy he loss. Once he is back at full power, we will get a chance to see the true power of LB but that changes nothing. Whis made it clear that Goku in this form is stronger than Beerus when he asked Beerus "Beerus, do you have anything to say", when Goku new form appeared.

Originally posted by Inedian
Only what Whis was sure was that Jiren reached GoD state. That he was sure... everything else he wasn't.

Look at the episode again and read the words again.

Jiren >>> SSB Gogeta

Maybe if Goku and Vegeta fused as ultra instinct, then you'd have a shot at taking him down.

Goku seemed more powerful in base form. Odds are, Ultra Instinct makes power levels irrelevent.

I bet even a human like Krillin would become an unstoppable monster if he learned it.

Originally posted by cdtm
Goku seemed more powerful in base form. Odds are, Ultra Instinct makes power levels irrelevent.

I bet even a human like Krillin would become an unstoppable monster if he learned it.

I wouldn't say it makes power levels irrelevant. This form probably just, as the name implies, enhances ones fighting instinct. All in all, it probably isn't a boost like we've traditionally seen in DB, it seems like a way to more efficiently utilize the ki that someone already has. In a sense, it is a "form" that brings you closer to fighting like a God, or an angel. Which is probably why all the Gods fear this form- it could potentially make a mortal rival them in battle power.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I wouldn't say it makes power levels irrelevant. This form probably just, as the name implies, enhances ones fighting instinct. All in all, it probably isn't a boost like we've traditionally seen in DB, it seems like a way to more efficiently utilize the ki that someone already has. In a sense, it is a "form" that brings you closer to fighting like a God, or an angel. Which is probably why all the Gods fear this form- it could potentially make a mortal rival them in battle power.

Could be. Goku certainly seems more effective, even though he seems in base.

Narratively, having a weakling like Yamcha learn it somehow before Goku perfects it would sell the form more. (And it's standard kung fu fare. Think Kung Fu Hustle, where the weaker hero suddenly becomes invincible with a single form.)

Originally posted by cdtm
Could be. Goku certainly seems more effective, even though he seems in base.

Narratively, having a weakling like Yamcha learn it somehow before Goku perfects it would sell the form more. (And it's standard kung fu fare. Think Kung Fu Hustle, where the weaker hero suddenly becomes invincible with a single form.)

Lmao, why was I thinking of Kung Fu Hustle too?

I totally agree though- I just wonder how strong Goku is going to be once he's able to reach that form again, and actually control it. I was honestly pissed that Jiren still brushed it aside with such little effort.