VOTE: The Power of Anakin Skywalker

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



DarthAnt66
After Syndicate's debacle, it should be noted this poll is not for any debate - I'm curious where everyone stands in late 2017.

Vote in the poll and share and your answer in the comments.

godemperortrump
KF Ani would take Sheev and Yoda

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I voted that Knightfall Anakin would defeat Yoda or Sidious in a fight. Mostly because:

1. Statements that Anakin (when tapping into the dark side) is a 9 and "by far the most dangerous character in the universe," along with so many statements about him being the most powerful Jedi ever, it's comical.

2. When tapping into the dark side, he utterly destroyed Dooku to an extent that I don't even think Yoda could.

3. Anakin was effortlessly annihilating a high tier 7/potentially low tier 8 duelist in Cin Drallig, while not even focusing his full attention on him.

You can also throw in the Theta-storm feat, given it's a feat I think he can replicate in his Knightfall state, (iirc it was stated twice that even Yoda wouldn't be able to replicate such a feat).

Dude was also growing in power throughout Knightfall.

the potential validity of Skywalker's fight with Windu also solidifies the mountain of other evidence. smile

Rebel95
Wow i'm pleasantly surprised 3 people already voted that he would beat Yoda or Sidious. I believe he's more powerful, but he's also more reckless and not as masterful with the force, so I voted that they would stalemate. But really I think it could go either way

TenebrousWay
Any of the three first options are valid answers depending on the approach.

AncientPower
Knightfall Anakin decides he wins, and he does.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Any of the three first options are valid answers depending on the approach.
Try to pick one, TBH.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Try to pick one, TBH.

2.

Azronger
Sidious > Anakin > Yoda

godemperortrump
Originally posted by Azronger
Sidious > Anakin > Yoda
Anakin > Sidious = Yoda

Azronger
Yoda isn't Palpatine's equal.

Darth Thor
Any of the first 4 are valid, but I'll be prudent and go for the 4th.

Haschwalth
Sidious>Yoda>Anakin

UCanShootMyNova
Where's the "KF Anakin would beat GM Luke and DE Sidious in a fight" option? Weren't bold enough to risk alienating your demographics yet?

Haschwalth
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Where's the "KF Anakin would beat GM Luke and DE Sidious in a fight" option? Weren't bold enough to risk alienating your demographics yet?

Might as well through the ones in while we are at it.
maybe abeloth for good measure.

UCanShootMyNova
thumb up

relentless1
id say he's around their level but their experience and fuller realization of their potential makes this a win for Sidious or Yoda.

Trocity
Option 4, probably.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Azronger
Yoda isn't Palpatine's equal.
Ignoring the movie, and sources that don't blatantly contradict the movie, maybe. Otherwise while Sidious may have the slimmest of edges, they're effectively equals.

Rockydonovang
Anyway there are a couple of things people are ignoring regarding Yoda vs Dooku and Anakin vs Dooku

I'll set aside Yoda being pre-prime since I'm aware Anakin was pre-prime.
1. Yoda was hindered by an attachment to Dooku he doesn't let go off untill Dark Rendevous. We know this hinders him as in Dark Rendevous, Yoda's performance improves when he resolves to cut off his attachment to Dooku,

2. Anakin has a style advantage vs Dooku and the novelization which potrays the fight so one0sidedly repeatedly jacks up his strength as a key factor in his victory. And yes, when comapring tier nines, styles matter:

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang

2. Anakin has a style advantage vs Dooku and the novelization which potrays the fight so one0sidedly repeatedly jacks up his strength as a key factor in his victory. And yes, when comapring tier nines, styles matter:


Except Dooku's not a 9, so it wouldn't matter for that fight.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except Dooku's not a 9, so it wouldn't matter for that fight.
The Dooku fight is being used as a basis for comparison between Anakin and Yoda, tier nines.

DarthAnt66
DR Yoda, unlike AOTC Yoda, was not willing to kill Dooku. So the comparison is irrelevant.

Also, you're completely using that wrong. The quote is for 9 vs 9s. As in, they are so good that, if they fight each other, the difference might just be a marginal difference like a lightsaber form. That's distinctively different than lightsaber forms being relevant in all comparative battles between them. Regardless, the difference between the two fights is *so* extreme that you couldn't even justify it if you tried. Anakin's performance is leagues better than Yoda's.

Ursumeles
The last opinion, yeah.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DR Yoda, unlike AOTC Yoda, was not willing to kill Dooku. So the comparison is irrelevant.

Also, you're completely using that wrong. The quote is for 9 vs 9s. As in, they are so good that, if they fight each other, the difference might just be a marginal difference like a lightsaber form. That's distinctively different than lightsaber forms being relevant in all comparative battles between them. Regardless, the difference between the two fights is *so* extreme that you couldn't even justify it if you tried. Anakin's performance is leagues better than Yoda's.
Yoda was initially not willing to kill Dooku and then lets go of his attachment and accept he must destroy Dooku.

If how you stylistically match up to someone is a decisive factor, I'm willing to bet that it remains a factor in just how well you batter someone compared to someone who lacks such a stylistic edge.

Also worth mentioning the novelization is the only source which depicts the fight so favorably for Anakin. Coincidentally, it also is the least aligned with the film and makes the greatest use of hyperbole. The novelization also heavily emphasizes Anakin's strength being too much for Dooku to handle. Not so relevant with Yoda, who isn't a strength orientated fighter.

DarthAnt66
Cool? Like I said, it doesn't matter. In AOTC, Yoda *was* initially willing to kill Dooku. That's apparent in the G-canon script when he tries to kill him.

... What?

The novel is, "coincidentally," the most canonical novelization Star Wars has ever put in. No other version of ROTS (film and script aside) has even a shred of the canoncity that the adult novel has. Anyway, I have no clue what you're trying to convey in your last paragraph. You sort of just make a lot of vague claims without drawing any conclusion.

Rockydonovang
Where does it say Yoda tries to kill him?

What exactly does the script say about Anakin vs Dooku?

DarthAnt66
Yoda jumps on his shoulder and tries to drive his lightsaber into Dooku, rofl.

I don't recall mentioning the script of Dooku vs Anakin. Anyway, it says as the fight goes on, Anakin grows stronger as Dooku and Obi-Wan grow weaker, which is a view echoed in the adult novelization.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yoda jumps on his shoulder and tries to drive his lightsaber into Dooku, rofl.

And other sources have Yoda explicitly not trying to kill him, something supported by the movie where Yoda doesn't attack back when Dooku attacks him. Not to mention the entire premise and climax of Dark Rendezvous revolves around Yoda choosing to let go of his attachment to Dooku. So I'm going to ignore the senior novelization. That it at one point had Lucas's authorial support doesn't make it irrefutable.

I'll ask you to post the script's depiction of Anakin vs Dooku?, I'm just asking since it would be useful for this discussion.

DarthAnt66
That's not a legitimate move. G-Canon or quasi G-Canon sources like the novel or script can't be dismissed for author interpretations of the film or script without contact from Lucas.

Google "Revenge of the Sith script."

Rockydonovang
Per the script, Dooku was exhausted having to deal with both Kenobi and Anakin.

Which means Anakin lay a beating on a Dooku who was both circumstantially exhausted and at a form disadvantage. Not that the script potrays the fight as one-sidedly as the novel does.

DarthAnt66
What the actual ****.

No, it says Dooku and Obi become tired as Anakin grows stronger. It doesn't state the reason why (you just lied saying it was because Dooku had to fend both off), but the novel supplies it: Dooku is growing tired because Anakin is forcing him to expend absurd amounts of energy. It's perfectly consistent. The adult novel also has Anakin growing stronger as the battle progresses.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What the actual ****.
It doesn't state the reason why (you just lied saying it was because Dooku had to fend both off), but the novel supplies it: Dooku is growing tired because Anakin is forcing him to expend absurd amounts of energy.
It's almost as if Dooku wasn't facing Anakin alone...

Anyway, if you have further points of contention, I'll respond later

DarthAnt66
Yeah, same for the adult novel. erm

The script is essentially the same as the adult novel. We know this because Stover literally had the script in front of him when writing and then got everything confirmed by Lucas. Any "contraction" that exists is of your own imagination or irrelevant to Lucas' vision. The film is different because a significant portion of the film was cut, presumably due to time.

DarthAnt66
Also worth noting the adult novel probably has higher authority than the script in this instance - not that it matters, though.

Sinious
There is no denying that Anakin started the fight with Kenobi's support. Dooku is also instructed by Sidious to specifically actualize an outcome he wants (even though Dooku doesn't know the ultimate goal). He can't just fight however he wants. He has to find a way to take Kenobi out of the picture, while also dealing with Anakin. There is stipulations to his strategizing, while the Jedi is simply trying to bring him down. At last, the form may not be decisive on its own, but I don't see why it shouldn't be a factor that makes the fight more one-sided.


Comparing an emotionally attached Yoda to an enraged Anakin seems like flawed thinking to me. Also, the idea of the rage he gets from a permanent state of mind being equally potent as the burst of rage that was suppressed for years doesn't seem like genuine thinking to me. More like cancerous wank. Not to mention that Anakin had the motivation of saving Padme during KF. Everything he did, he did with the thought of "failure = Padme's death". To think that he'd be just as motivated in fights after Padme's safe seems bizarre, cause it suggests that Padme's life is irrelevant to dark side Anakin, even though Padme is the reason he fell to the dark side in the first place.


I agree with Azronger that even though Palpatine and Yoda are very close in power (Palpatine is slightly stronger), Yoda has no variety of abilities to actually kill Palpatine. Especially in the context of Legends, and not just the movies, Yoda doesn't seem to have a way of killing Sheev.


I think that Anakin is the king of circumstances. He can outperform Yoda under right circumstances, but can also fare far worse than him. Assuming that this is an arena type match with no concerns for Padme, or some other circumstantial focus/rage he gets, he would lose 10 out of 10 times, due to being an idiot who is far from properly harnessing his powers, and having no comparable mastery to Yoda. Against Sheev, the fight is gonna be even more one-sided.

I didn't vote, cause the poll assumes equality between Yoda and Sidious (more specifically, it assumes that Anakin's performance against Sheev wouldn't vary from his performance against Yoda).

ILS
thumb up

Anakin needs considerable generosity to be considered capable of beating either of these in a fight.

Deronn_solo
thumb up thumb up

ILS
1. There are many definitive quotes, including within the RotS novel itself, which is where most of Harr and Skillz' Anakin wank stems from, confirming that Yoda and Sidious are the ultimate masters of their respective sides of the Force.



2. While Anakin's rage-enhanced victory over Dooku was emphatic, Sidious' victory over a rage-amped Darth Maul was so emphatic that Maul saw more lightsaber blades than he could count, and then more than that.

And this isn't Sidious fighting at his most desperate hour, this is him taking a comfortable victory over a bloodlusted, raging Maul.



3. A Yoda who was holding back, and trying to convert Dooku to the Light Side, emphatically defeated Dooku on the Dark Side nexus of Vjun, which would amp Dooku and hinder Yoda.

It took Anakin a massive rage amp on neutral ground to begin dominating Dooku, never mind while being hindered emotionally and by a nexus.



So can we please get over this horseshit about Anakin/Vader beating Yoda or Sidious.

His raw power may come close to theirs, on his best day and with the right amount of motivation, but he lacks the skill, experience or focus to direct that power in a meaningful enough way to secure a win. He has no answer for Sidious and Yoda's speed or mastery of the Force, and there's no doubt that they would be able to undermine his delicate emotional state, as Dooku has been able to. Can we also remember that on the Invisible Hand, Dooku briefly brought the fight back to even ground by simply using Dun Moch, until Sidious prodded Anakin onward?

Rebel95
What about the fact that by operation Knightfall, Anakin had grown significantly in power since the Invisible Hand?

ILS
Originally posted by Rebel95
What about the fact that by operation Knightfall, Anakin had grown significantly in power since the Invisible Hand? Proof?

ILS
You mean how Anakin "felt his power growing" after becoming Vader?

That's fine, but how is that proof he can maintain his Invisible Hand performance indefinitely? And even I doubt that would be enough for him to secure a win.

UCanShootMyNova
thumb up

Kurk
"Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us"

Best case scenario Sheev is being 100% truthful and not exaggerating.

So Anakin is, at best, on their levels if "being more powerful" accounts for both saber and force power.

KF Anakin losing in a fight to Dooku is ridiculous when you consider the quote:
"Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful"

So just using both of those quotes,
Dooku < KF Anakin =< Yoda/Sidious

So the only real viable options to choose here are (top - bottom) 2, 3, and 4.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by ILS
You mean how Anakin "felt his power growing" after becoming Vader?

That's fine, but how is that proof he can maintain his Invisible Hand performance indefinitely? And even I doubt that would be enough for him to secure a win.

Ayyy, how you been bubblenigs? I'll reply when I get home.

darthbane77
Sidious>Yoda>>>>>>>>Anakin

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by ILS
You mean how Anakin "felt his power growing" after becoming Vader?

That's fine, but how is that proof he can maintain his Invisible Hand performance indefinitely? And even I doubt that would be enough for him to secure a win.
Anakin tapping into the darkside and learning how to focus his anger isn't at all the same as being rage amped. Given that Anakin proceeds to grow more powerful afterwards, Knightfall would be Zonakin plus.

Though, yes, I'd agree Anakin wouldn't win a majority.

BlueTiger1144
ILS's post was the only sensible thing in here.

ILS, I felt that Ben Skywalker would be the one to get killed by Darth Krayt. Luke is simply too much of an OP, and besides, for story and authorial purposes, I probably wouldn't have a person with the potential of the Chosen One, in his prime( which presumably is after FOTJ), lose to literally any non-entity warrior. But Ben going down to Krayt in that way makes more sense. He probably would have gone down young. That is why there is no mention of him in the Legacy era comics, despite his age being enough for him to function as a grandfather to Cade, or something. Vestara would be involved in it too, and she would somehow be destroyed by Krayt as well. There is also the chance that Krayt manipulates her into killing Ben, and then destroys her.

ILS
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Ayyy, how you been bubblenigs? I'll reply when I get home. Good man, you? Cool, can't wait to see what kinda wank you can cook up.Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
ILS's post was the only sensible thing in here.

ILS, I felt that Ben Skywalker would be the one to get killed by Darth Krayt. Luke is simply too much of an OP, and besides, for story and authorial purposes, I probably wouldn't have a person with the potential of the Chosen One, in his prime( which presumably is after FOTJ), lose to literally any non-entity warrior. But Ben going down to Krayt in that way makes more sense. He probably would have gone down young. That is why there is no mention of him in the Legacy era comics, despite his age being enough for him to function as a grandfather to Cade, or something. Vestara would be involved in it too, and she would somehow be destroyed by Krayt as well. There is also the chance that Krayt manipulates her into killing Ben, and then destroys her. Well, it's just a quote I took from someone else which I found awesome and funny. But Krayt and his lieutenants fighting Luke in a 5-6v1 scenario would be badass to watch.

DarthAnt66
Sinious, I'll respond to you tomorrow afternoon - busy tonight. And it looks like Sas has ILS.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
ILS's post was the only sensible thing in here.


You always butt in and say shit like this, then proceed to get one-shotted or not argue at all. I'd get it if you had a pedigree of any kind, but you're a microbe. Disrespectful. smile

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Sinious
There is no denying that Anakin started the fight with Kenobi's support.
I'd wager everyone here watched the film, so of course, but this statement is just as pointless as, "Yoda is green," or "Palpatine is evil."

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 1



I can't tell you how many times someone has made this same argument. I don't know how it's still being made in 2017.

Yes, Dooku had a specific goal he had to achieve (i.e. take out Obi-Wan while still handling Anakin). However, Dooku abandoned that goal early in the fight:

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easilythan a new apprentice.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 2



Except it's not that Makashi is weak to Djem So - it's that Dooku's Makashi can't handle Anakin's Djem So.

In other words, Anakin is so much physically stronger than Dooku that Dooku cannot defend against Anakin's attacks.

Thus, you are effectively arguing, "well, Dooku might be able to perform better if Anakin wasn't so physically powerful."

Except Anakin is that physically powerful and that is relevant toward all of Anakin's performances, one versus Yoda included.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 3



Oh boy.

Anakin is noted by Dooku to be mentally handicapped as Dooku teeters on unconsciousness.

On the flip side, the script is explicit that Yoda's attachment to Dooku is not preventing him from killing Dooku:

YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.

YODA
(continuing)
The end for you, Count, this is.

COUNT DOOKU
...Not yet...

COUNT DOOKU raises his arms and knocks YODA off his shoulders and then, with all his might, he uses the Force to pull on one of the cranes in the hanger.

So yes, indeed, comparing those two circumstances is flawed because neither circumstance exists.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 4



That's... actually irrelevant.

Anakin was dominating Dooku before his "burst of rage that was suppressed for years." Anakin as of Operation Knightfall is noted to be more powerful than, at the very least, that version. I will gladly discuss with you "Zonakin" versus "Operation Knightfall" Anakin, but let's do that after you concede to everything else since I don't want to have too many debates at once.



Not only have you provided no evidence toward this stance, but it directly contradicts George Lucas' own assessment of Anakin's abilities.

In other words, you're factually incorrect.

Awkward.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 5



Do you care to clarify this statement? Do you mean Anakin can't properly bring his abilities to bear?

"As Palpatine, he befriended Skywalker, becoming a close friend and a fatherly authority to a youthful warrior often confused by his seemingly boundless power and abilities he had at his disposal."

Disposal, of course, meaning that Anakin can use that power at his wish (in contrast to potential or capped power).

Or are you arguing that Anakin's confusion over his powers affects his capacity to unleash his powers?

As of Operation Knightfall, Anakin no longer has such restrictions - he shed them in his fight on the Invisible Hand:

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

In other words, as far as I can tell, Anakin can properly harness his powers and bring them to bear in combat.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 6



Yet Obi-Wan Kenobi has stated that Anakin's mastery of the Force is just as great as Yoda's:

"Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself."

In this statement, the term "strong in the Force" is being used as synonymous with mastery, not raw power, as established with the text in red.

This quote is from Labyrinth of Evil, hence why Anakin does not yet have personal mastery like he does during Operation Knightfall.

Irrelevant / Incorrect Point Counter: 7



While Yoda vs Anakin might be rather one-sided in favor toward Anakin, it seems contradictory for you to suggest Sheev would fare even worse than Yoda.

NewGuy01

Azronger
thumb up

Anakin is God.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q8c5hKyThu4

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
Anakin is God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

It's funny because it's true.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY

It's funny because it's true.

Wait....

Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced.

Holy shit.

Azronger
Anakin > GM Luke and DE Sidious. Let's go.

Ursumeles
dmb will be so happy with anakin > mortakin > son

The Merchant
Just below Yoda and Palps cause of Palpatine saying Anakin will be more powerful than them, indicating that he's below them. But hes super close to their level.

Rockydonovang
there are ways to argue for yoda vs Anakin here, but trying to claim Anakin was rage amped vs dooku isn't one of them

Haschwalth
Originally posted by Ursumeles
dmb will be so happy with anakin > mortakin > son

That sounds retarded.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Azronger
Anakin > GM Luke and DE Sidious. Let's go. I'm assuming jokes

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by darthbane77
Sidious>Yoda>>>>>>>>Anakin
I'm sure you have a good reason for placing a dude who the word of god places on Yoda/Sidious's level as a duelist and who the Word of God puts "up there" with Yoda and Sidious, vastly below Yoda and Sidious.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
there are ways to argue for yoda vs Anakin here, but trying to claim Anakin was rage amped vs dooku isn't one of them



He wasn't rage "amped". He was simply letting his natural rage levels out.

And tbh, even before he did that he was already winning.

ILS
Yeah tbh Newguy I got nothing for that, good post.

It's just strange, Anakin seemed distraught during Knightfall in the movie, I never had the impression he peaked there.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He wasn't rage "amped". He was simply letting his natural rage levels out.


thumb up

Darth Thor
Originally posted by ILS
Yeah tbh Newguy I got nothing for that, good post.

It's just strange, Anakin seemed distraught during Knightfall in the movie, I never had the impression he peaked there.



Movie doesn't go into enough detail on Knightfall.

Btw that "Dragon" in NewGuy's quotes that failed at its attempts to whisper to Anakin as of Knightfall, really gets to him right before Mustafar.

ILS
that pesky lizard

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Movie doesn't go into enough detail on Knightfall.

Btw that "Dragon" in NewGuy's quotes that failed at its attempts to whisper to Anakin as of Knightfall, really gets to him right before Mustafar.
That dragon's obviously toothless

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.