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Takes place inside the Temple on Dromund Kaas. All out fight. Peak iterations.

Can people provide reasons, if not arguments?

A chained Vaylin is capable of casually breaking senyas neck, the strongest of all zakuulian Knights. Senya is most likely above Satele/Marr.

I have Vaylin higher than Zannah on a power list, but as to how they specifically match up against each other, Vaylin is uniquely psychologically and emotionally ****ed up for someone of her power level, so IMO if Zannah can hit her with a spell of madness its all ogre, but if Vaylin somehow overpowers Zannah before she gets that chance Vaylin wins.

Vaylin is too powerful even if I like Zannah far more.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I have Vaylin higher than Zannah on a power list, but as to how they specifically match up against each other, Vaylin is uniquely psychologically and emotionally ****ed up for someone of her power level, so IMO if Zannah can hit her with a spell of madness its all ogre, but if Vaylin somehow overpowers Zannah before she gets that chance Vaylin wins.

So you think Zannah's only hope would be asymmetric warfare? What puts Vaylin above Zannah, and by how much?
Conversely, wouldn't Vaylin's superior power enable her to withstand such eldrith powers from Zannah?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So you think Zannah's only hope would be asymmetric warfare? What puts Vaylin above Zannah, and by how much?
I'm not really the Vaylin expert, but Arcann on his own has some pretty impressive feats such as TKing the shit out of KOTFE Outlander and shielding himself from spirit Valk's lightning for several seconds, and even chained Vaylin scales above him in Force power, and while I have Bane and Zannah above Arcann, unchained Vaylin scales above him to such an extent that he's not even remotely comparable to her, so I'd say she'd fall somewhere along the Banite gap between Bane and Plagueis, not certain enough to place her in a specific place along that gap for certain but I can say I have her above Zannah overall on a list.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Conversely, wouldn't Vaylin's superior power enable her to withstand such eldrith powers from Zannah?
I don't think it's a question of power with Zannah's sorcery at all. Upon studying Zannah's sorcery and having personally trained her for decades with Bane himself having access to knowledge from Darth Revan's holocron, Freedon Nadd's holocron, Sorzus Syn's holocron, Andeddu's holocron, and the Brotherhood's own knowledge (which say what you will about the Brotherhood but their knowledge of telepathy was actually fairly advanced with Bane having learned the memory walk ability from them, Githany having learned mind meld from them, each master in the brotherhood being highly mentally trained etc), and with knowledge of all these sources with plenty of telepathic and sorcery knowledge, including the source material for Zannah's sorcery, upon looking for a counter to that sorcery for two decades Bane concluded the only real defense for Zannah's sorcery is sheer willpower, not some special technique, and not raw force power.

Well, to be fair, just being far more powerful than Zannah wasnt exactly an option for Bane.

I would say, Vaylins willpower is quite high, as she managed to control the out poor of energy when she was unleashing(Breaking her chains), if not she would of died.

Interesting.

I'm not a Vaylin or Arcann expert either, but the feats you mentioned don't strike me as being outside Zannah's purview. In fact, if a non-Force sensitive smuggler can defeat Arcann, couldn't Zannah stomp him? (Just playing the Devil's advocate here.)

So why do you have Vaylin > Zannah? And if so, by how much?

Conversely, wouldn't the extreme efforts Valkorion underwent to contain Vaylin's power suggest she could no sell Zannah'a more eldritch powers?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Interesting.

I'm not a Vaylin or Arcann expert either, but the feats you mentioned don't strike me as being outside Zannah's purview. In fact, if a non-Force sensitive smuggler can defeat Arcann, couldn't Zannah stomp him? (Just playing the Devil's advocate here.)

So why do you have Vaylin > Zannah? And if so, by how much?

Conversely, wouldn't the extreme efforts Valkorion underwent to contain Vaylin's power suggest she could no sell Zannah'a more eldritch powers?

I'll get back to you later. I'm a bit busy with homework and a birthday message for someone atm.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Interesting.

I'm not a Vaylin or Arcann expert either, but the feats you mentioned don't strike me as being outside Zannah's purview. In fact, if a non-Force sensitive smuggler can defeat Arcann, couldn't Zannah stomp him? (Just playing the Devil's advocate here.)

So why do you have Vaylin > Zannah? And if so, by how much?

Conversely, wouldn't the extreme efforts Valkorion underwent to contain Vaylin's power suggest she could no sell Zannah'a more eldritch powers?


He also killed Valkorian.........
Nah, HoT is the portrayed character to defeat them, Valkorian possessing a non force sensitive, then getting their body ready to receive his spirit, yeah no......
He needs someone with a bit more midichlorians fyi.

And yeah, the fact he could normally Mentally dominate her, would put Vaylin out of Zannahs range.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
He also killed Valkorian.........
Nah, HoT is the portrayed character to defeat them, Valkorian possessing a non force sensitive, then getting their body ready to receive his spirit, yeah no......
He needs someone with a bit more midichlorians fyi.

?
Pretty sure I've seen footage of the smuggler doing it. Why is the smuggler an invalid choice?
Not really: wasn't a lesser Valk able to imbue non Force sensitive guards with Force sensitive properties?

I agree it doesn't mesh with standard SW lore, but little of SWTOR does.



I can see an argument being made for it.

There's pretty solid evidence pointing towards the Knight being the canon class for the Outlander. You know, the whole vision Scourge had about the Knight taking Vitiate's crown and wielding his power, for starters.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
There's pretty solid evidence pointing towards the Knight being the canon class for the Outlander. You know, the whole vision Scourge had about the Knight taking Vitiate's crown and wielding his power, for starters.

Valk didn't wear a crown. Your argument is invalid.

Joking aside, has there been confirmation that the Jedi Knight is the "canon" class for the Outlander?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
?
Pretty sure I've seen footage of the smuggler doing it. Why is the smuggler an invalid choice?
Not really: wasn't a lesser Valk able to imbue non Force sensitive guards with Force sensitive properties?

I agree it doesn't mesh with standard SW lore, but little of SWTOR does.

Swtor developers are lazy, so they let the non force sensitives pull off the same feats, as the sensitives. It sort of limits the force sensitive feats tbh.

Yes, but he needed someone strong enough to hold his Spirit, that's why he had to toughen up the Outlander. Just look at Nihilus, his body couldn't hold his raw power, so he shed it. And, he saw, Vaylin/Arcann/Thexan as his children so, he had some sort of connection to them, they just didn't live up to his standards. So, he possess the outlander instead.

It's futher backed, when Valkorian allows the outlander to use his power against Arcann, and His body is screwed from the affects, literally passess out like 20 mins later.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty sure I've seen footage of the smuggler doing it. Why is the smuggler an invalid choice?

He's not exactly invalid but we're going to need to concile his defeat by the smuggler with his trashing of the HoTlander in the early chapters.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Valk didn't wear a crown. Your argument is invalid.

Joking aside, has there been confirmation that the Jedi Knight is the "canon" class for the Outlander?

Only that he's the class shown in all the promotional material. Again, though, it's pretty clear cut from a story perspective; in his visions, Scourge saw the Knight kill Vitiate, take his crown, and wield his power. The Outlander wielded Vitiate's power, the Outlander killed Vitiate, and the Outlander now rules his kingdom. How could it possibly be any of the other classes? If it were, the Knight wouldn't have accomplished a single one of the three things that we were told he would.

Visions have been known to be wrong before.

Vaylin's psyche is extremely fragile, no matter how much more powerful than Zannah she is, if any, and Zannah has pushed even people lacking any unresolved inner demons near the breaking point with her mental sorceries.

I'd wager the Sith Lady wins here.

i think ur sheevism cult plagiarized the dark brotherhood br0

Originally posted by Azronger
Vaylin's psyche is extremely fragile, no matter how much more powerful than Zannah she is, if any, and Zannah has pushed even people lacking any unresolved inner demons near the breaking point with her mental sorceries.

I'd wager the Sith Lady wins here.

And what evidence do you have that her psyche is fragile? If anything, the opposite it true, as Temp brought up.

Vaylin wins ten times out of ten.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And what evidence do you have that her psyche is fragile? If anything, the opposite it true, as Temp brought up.

Eh, while I definitely think an argument can be made that Vaylin can power through Zannah's bullshit, I also acknowledge the viewpoint that she'd suffer in the process. She's not exactly the poster girl for mental health.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vaylin wins ten times out of ten.

reasons pl0x

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Only that he's the class shown in all the promotional material. Again, though, it's pretty clear cut from a story perspective; in his visions, Scourge saw the Knight kill Vitiate, take his crown, and wield his power. The Outlander wielded Vitiate's power, the Outlander killed Vitiate, and the Outlander now rules his kingdom. How could it possibly be any of the other classes? If it were, the Knight wouldn't have accomplished a single one of the three things that we were told he would.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Visions have been known to be wrong before.

Not trolling you, Sas, just playing the Devil's advocate here. It certainly would make more sense to have the Outlander be the Jedi Knight, but then SWTOR does have a habit of relentlessly torturing one's suspension of disbelief.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And what evidence do you have that her psyche is fragile?

Childhood trauma that scarred her for life and made her a psycho sound like fairly unpleasant memories. Her persistent temper tantrums also indicate a wavering emotional state. Zannah has plenty to work with here.



Force Suppression =/= Telepathic influence. Valkorion required elaborate rituals and psychological conditioning to chain her innate raw power, but had a fairly easy time turning his daughter into an obedient puppet with Telepathic domination.

Zannah's Spells are also telepathic in nature. Cognus was the Force Suppression gal.



Why?

Vaylin is more powerful and her stalemating of arcann leaves her an impressive enough duelist.

Dem spells tho.

that being said there's a very real chance using spells to break down her sanity backfires on Zannah. An unhinged Vaylin, is a dangerous Vaylin.

Vaylin one-shots

Vaylin's so far above her grade that this might be spite.

Why be that?

Because her willpower was strong enough to overwhelm BRAIN whilst in the very same place she was broken in. More importantly, despite all of Valk's best attempts, she still broke free from his mind domination.

Only Revan, who is possibly the most headstrong character in the mythos, has replicated such a feat against Valk's focused and continuous telepathic assaults.

Argh. Revan is trash AP, Silver debunked him long ago

Him holding off Vitiate and the Dread Masters for three centuries can't be debunked, if it's a fact.

Vaylin solidly.

---

The only spell that troubled Vaylin was "kneel before the dragon of Zakuul." I do not recall any other vulnerability.

Another observation is that Vaylin coped with the extremely torturous environment of Nathema very well, tackling any kind of opposition on it. Her conditioning did not hamper her in any way on Nathema.

In contrast, Valkorion shielded the minds of the Outlander and Lana Beniko while they traversed Nathema. Even with such aid, Lana remarked how torturous Nathema is much like Jedi Exile centuries earlier.

So I am not sure from where the notion has surfaced that Vaylin is mentally vulnerable. Not in the slightest.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because her willpower was strong enough to overwhelm BRAIN whilst in the very same place she was broken in.

What's BRAIN got going for it and why is overwhelming it relevant when up against Zannah's mind****ery? To me it looked like Vaylin did it via an energy blast and not anything willpower-related.



Only via holocron ex machina.

Because the BRAIN is literally the Void concentrated as a form of mental assault, designed to aid in breaking the minds of its victims.

Vaylin's power is literally being torn apart, she willed herself free because she refused to die to the very thing that had chained her.

That was domination over her spirit, not what I'm referring to.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because the BRAIN is literally the Void concentrated as a form of mental assault, designed to aid in breaking the minds of its victims.

Where is this stated or implied?



No, she fired an energy blast.



Her dad was also a spirit. The playing field was even.

But what's this other time she broke free that you're referring to?

I'd have to go and literally play the level to retrieve the audio from the head scientist, but he talks about the experiments as you traverse through the level in-game.

No she didn't, she breaks out by breaking her mental chains. Hence 'Unchained' Vaylin. That was literally the entire reason she went there.

He dominated her spirit because he drained her essence upon death.

Anyway. Valkorion couldn't outright dominate Vaylin's mind, as he did with many others, he was forced to resort to years of torture and mental conditioning on Nathema to control her.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'd have to go and literally play the level to retrieve the audio from the head scientist, but he talks about the experiments as you traverse through the level in-game.

The entire chapter is less than 30 minutes long on YouTube.



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-30-2017/0-lf80.gif

Energy blast.



Force Drain =/= Telepathic influence.



Force Suppression =/= Telepathic influence.

And you didn't answer my question.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang

that being said there's a very real chance using spells to break down her sanity backfires on Zannah. An unhinged Vaylin, is a dangerous Vaylin.
Something to consider

Originally posted by Azronger
Childhood trauma that scarred her for life and made her a psycho sound like fairly unpleasant memories.

Her persistent temper tantrums also indicate a wavering emotional state. Zannah has plenty to work with here.

The issue is just that. Vaylin is already is a crazy who's experienced intense psychological torture, the void of Nathema that was constantly trying to tear her mind apart, etc. She also had no signs of mental frailty when she returned to the prison for the first time either. Point being, I'm not exactly sure what Zannah's fear spells would show Vaylin that she hasn't already experienced or overcome.

Originally posted by Azronger
Force Suppression =/= Telepathic influence. Valkorion required elaborate rituals and psychological conditioning to chain her innate raw power, but had a fairly easy time turning his daughter into an obedient puppet with Telepathic domination.

Zannah's Spells are also telepathic in nature. Cognus was the Force Suppression gal.

Why?

Certainly you're not talking about Chapter 9, where Valkorion explicitly states that his consumption of her essence is what allows him to control her spirit, right? The part where Outlander frees Vaylin from Valkorion via the Holocron and he's unable to simply telepathically dominate her?

Zannah matches terribly with Vaylin. She can't press Vaylin enough offensively to not be destroyed by her force powers.

Yea, mentally fcking up Vaylin could easily end with Zannah pulling off an outburst like the one she had on Nathema which ends up taking out Zannah anyway.

Compelling arguments are being made for Vaylin's ability to overcome Zannah's psychic intrusions. But could she no-sell them? It's possible the struggle would enable Zannah to press her advantage, right?

Regardless, the consensus seems to be overwhelming that Vaylin would defeat Zannah. Anyone care to defend Bane's pupil here?

who the fook is vaylin

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The issue is just that. Vaylin is already is a crazy who's experienced intense psychological torture, the void of Nathema that was constantly trying to tear her mind apart, etc. She also had no signs of mental frailty when she returned to the prison for the first time either. Point being, I'm not exactly sure what Zannah's fear spells would show Vaylin that she hasn't already experienced or overcome.

Memory's a bit foggy but didn't Vaylin fear being chained again the most? She was screaming at her dad about it.



Quote, please.



What's Vaylin got goin' for her that'd allow her to obliterate Zannah?

https://i.imgur.com/B43YGMl.jpg

Looks like Zannah mindrapes.

What exactly does that prove?

That she's mentally unstable?

Mentally unstable =/= crippling fear that Zannah's spell could exploit. Her willpower is still intact, kek.

If you say so...

I'm wondering what willpower consists of, Skillz, and why it would allowed her to resist Zannah. Mind elaborating on that a bit? Because she's need quite insane amounts of it to overcome Zannah in a mind battle given her mental instability and past experiences.

I like how Az still thinks that an energy blast broke her out of a mental block and made her more powerful.

Top notch logic.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I like how Az still thinks that an energy blast broke her out of a mental block and made her more powerful.

Top notch logic.

Indeed. TOR writers were really on their A-game there.

Originally posted by Azronger
I'm wondering what willpower consists of, Skillz, and why it would allowed her to resist Zannah.

Because Bane literally states that it's the way to go against Zannah's sorcery.

Originally posted by Azronger
Mind elaborating on that a bit? Because she's need quite insane amounts of it to overcome Zannah in a mind battle given her mental instability and past experiences.

Mental instability (in and of itself) doesn't constitute a win for Zannah here if we know that Vaylin's willpower is intact. Which we do, given she overcame her experiences on Nathema as a child without being mentally destroyed and on Nathema as an adult (when she used BRAIN to break free). She literally had the void of Nathema clawing to erase her mind from existence for years.

SOR Revan, who's probably more mentally unstable than Vaylin, has arguably the best willpower in the mythos. Would Zannah oneshot him because of his "mental instability"?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Because Bane literally states that it's the way to go against Zannah's sorcery.



Mental instability (in and of itself) doesn't constitute a win for Zannah here if we know that Vaylin's willpower is intact. Which we do, given she overcame her experiences on Nathema as a child without being mentally destroyed and on Nathema as an adult (when she used BRAIN to break free). She literally had the void of Nathema clawing to erase her mind from existence for years.

SOR Revan, who's probably more mentally unstable than Vaylin, has arguably the best willpower in the mythos. Would Zannah oneshot him because of his "mental instability"?

And how do you scale all of that to Bane, who is probably the weakest person Zannah couldn't break?