Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



DarthAnt66

Rockydonovang
hmmm, guess Anakin>Yoda's really a thing now

NewGuy01
>anakin is like drugs to reach enlightenment

inb4 DMB becomes new anakin brigade leader

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
hmmm, guess Anakin>Yoda's really a thing now


There's certainly tons of evidence suggesting parity at least.

Unbowed
Who cares Snoke is gonna be a 12. cool

darthbane77
Author opinion=/=fact

This can be used as an argument for those who wank Anakin to ungodly levels, but it proves nothing.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by darthbane77
Author opinion=/=fact

But an argument from ignorance is?

And before you get triggered, this is what I'm referring to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by darthbane77
Author opinion=/=fact

This can be used as an argument for those who wank Anakin to ungodly levels, but it proves nothing.
Lucas' word is G-Canon. Lucas created the tier systems alongside Gillard.

Haschwalth
mace on yoda's level as a duelist, that's all I needed to see.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He is. The 2005 tier system had Mace as an 8 bordering 9.

twotter
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lucas' word is G-Canon. Lucas created the tier systems alongside Gillard.

Slow down there son. As someone who wholly supports the Anakin Skywalker supreme, until we know exactly what George and Nick agreed, this statement from Gillard isn't necessarily a reflection of Lucas' view on things. As far as we knew, back in 2005 during the films release, Anakin was a tier 9 alongside Yoda and Sidious and that's what was agreed. It is very possible for writers of the same story to disagree on a single matter, as it is for their opinion to change over time. I can give you numerous examples of this happening all over fiction. As long as Lucas and Gillard aren't literally sharing a brain, a statement from Gillard isn't the same as a statement form Lucas. Hive-minds and Hegemonies aren't how movie scripts are created.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He is. The 2005 tier system had Mace as an 8 bordering 9.

I'm pretty sure that was also from a more recent interview. Back then he was just grouped with the 9's.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I thought the 8 bordering 9 was from 2005?

Greysentinel365
http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars/18028/star-wars-den-of-geek-goes-jedi-training-with-nick-gillard

Here's the interview. Since once again DA didn't link anything.

Also I like how this is coming up now. I've been posting this on CV for years.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by twotter
Slow down there son. As someone who wholly supports the Anakin Skywalker supreme, until we know exactly what George and Nick agreed, this statement from Gillard isn't necessarily a reflection of Lucas' view on things. As far as we knew, back in 2005 during the films release, Anakin was a tier 9 alongside Yoda and Sidious and that's what was agreed. It is very possible for writers of the same story to disagree on a single matter, as it is for their opinion to change over time. I can give you numerous examples of this happening all over fiction. As long as Lucas and Gillard aren't literally sharing a brain, a statement from Gillard isn't the same as a statement form Lucas. Hive-minds and Hegemonies aren't how movie scripts are created.
Except there's no suggested contradiction - just further clarification.

Anakin being a tier nine doesn't mean he can't be teetering on 10.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
But an argument from ignorance is?

And before you get triggered, this is what I'm referring to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance I've never argued out of ignorance. Viewing quotes and author/worker opinion differently than the rest of you=/=ignorance.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lucas' word is G-Canon. Lucas created the tier systems alongside Gillard. Lucas' word is well and good, but it's also contradicted and unsupported by much of what's actually seen in-universe. As far as the films only are concerned, Lucas is God, but in regards to the larger SW mythos, his word means little.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by darthbane77
I've never argued out of ignorance. Viewing quotes and author/worker opinion differently than the rest of you=/=ignorance.
I specifically linked you so you wouldn't be confusing me calling you out on engaging in a fallacy as an ad hominem.

Arguing that an absence of evidence is evidence of absence is an argument from ignorance. As we have evidence saying Anakin is Yoda level, you need to provide a reason he isn't yoda level aside from, "he don't got no feats!"

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by darthbane77
I've never argued out of ignorance. Viewing quotes and author/worker opinion differently than the rest of you=/=ignorance.

Lucas' word is well and good, but it's also contradicted and unsupported by much of what's actually seen in-universe. As far as the films only are concerned, Lucas is God, but in regards to the larger SW mythos, his word means little.
But that's... not true. Lucas' word is absolute in both Lucas Licensing and LucasFilms.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by darthbane77


Lucas' word is well and good, but it's also contradicted and unsupported by much of what's actually seen in-universe. As far as the films only are concerned, Lucas is God, but in regards to the larger SW mythos, his word means little.
Oh?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DB77 being incredibly disrespectful to Anakin...

who murders Revan.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Oh?
Exactly. The "other world" he's referring to is that of LFL, which likewise considers his word gospel (aka G-Canon).

So we have his world (LucasFilm) with him as Gospel, and then LFL with him as Gospel.

How that works is explained here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanon2.html

Or, if you just want a chart:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/images/Wonginuity2.jpg

"Super-Duper" just being an arbitrary phrase by the creator of the blog, of course.

Rockydonovang
It's amusing when people use the other sentences in that quote to try and argue Lucas's word doesn't mean sh!t for the EU while ignoring the sentences I just quoted.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Oh? "as consistent with mine as possible", meaning there are discrepancies, and nothing is kept perfect. Plus, I don't think he was referring to EVERYTHING being consistent, as much as just referring to the major story elements.

DarthAnt66
DB, refer to the link I posted, which explains essentially everything.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by darthbane77
"as consistent with mine as possible", meaning there are discrepancies, and nothing is kept perfect. Plus, I don't think he was referring to EVERYTHING being consistent, as much as just referring to the major story elements.
Then make a case that the lore contradicts Lucas again.

I'll repeat:
Originally posted by Rockydonovang


Arguing that an absence of evidence is evidence of absence is an argument from ignorance. As we have evidence saying Anakin is Yoda level, you need to provide a reason he isn't yoda level aside from, "he don't got no feats!"

quanchi112
Things are getting heated up in here.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Then make a case that the lore contradicts Lucas again.

I'll repeat: I'm busy-ish at the moment, so I can't type any real long explanations right now. But if you're willing, I can send you my reasoning in a PM at some point.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by darthbane77
I'm busy-ish at the moment, so I can't type any real long explanations right now. But if you're willing, I can send you my reasoning in a PM at some point.
Yea, I'll pass

darthbane77
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yea, I'll pass Lack of willingness to hear the opinions of others without shitting on them is what makes KMC a cancerous cesspool. Shouldn't be surprised you're a happy contributor to that.

quanchi112
https://media.giphy.com/media/bGS7xG5Vxlst2/giphy.gif

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by darthbane77
Lack of willingness to hear the opinions of others without shitting on them is what makes KMC a cancerous cesspool. Shouldn't be surprised you're a happy contributor to that. Uh, I have no problem hearing your opinion if you post here. I'm just not into having a pm session with you.

Maybe chill a bit about debating fictional characters?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by quanchi112
https://media.giphy.com/media/bGS7xG5Vxlst2/giphy.gif
Well, that's nice

Ursumeles
Originally posted by quanchi112
https://media.giphy.com/media/bGS7xG5Vxlst2/giphy.gif KMC War 54

Nai
Oh my...

1)
Nick Gillard's personal opinion means nothing. If it is not directly put into a canon source, it is not canon, especially not on the basis of "George Lucas maybe did agree with it."

2)
Even assuming it were credible, the problem would be that - according to his own words - Lucas never cared about anything outside the movies. Thus everything appearing in the EU later would never be factored into this kind of judgement anyway, making it totally useless for in the context of this forum.

3)
In the context of what ten tier scale?

4)
Are you just nuts?
Based on that system, Mace is equal to Yoda, which is obviously not the case. And the "perfect warrior" Anakin gets his ass handed to him by an opponent two tiers below him.

When making references to a "dark side Anakin", Gillard is obviously referring to Anakin in perfect control of his abilities, which we see at the end of his duel with Dooku and the raid on the Jedi Temple in RotS. Not the guy that we see in action on a daily basis and most certainly not the emotionally unstable punk we see losing to Kenobi.

So one might ask, what the point of this thread is? To establish that "Zonakin" might take Sidious, Yoda or Mace down? Who would have guessed...? roll eyes (sarcastic)

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nai
Oh my...

My thoughts exactly.



Lucas' own opinions are canonical. The tier system reflects Lucas' opinions since he created the system.



Lucas' word is absolute in EU continuity (regulated by Licensing) regardless.



The one that Lucas made.



Gillard has clarified Mace is 8 bordering 9 in another interview - not a straight 9 like Yoda.



Addressed by Gillard in MSW.



No shit, Sherlock. Is that why you're bitching? Rest assured, no one thinks Mustafar Anakin can beat Sidious.



Not as many people as you'd think. roll eyes (sarcastic)

MythLord
Gillard keeps fooking changing how this shitty tier system even works! How can you put any level of believability in a system that can't decide whether 8 is a cheat tier or 9 is, is beyond me, and then there's the absence of tier 10 which apparently also fooking exists.

darthbane77
Originally posted by Nai
Oh my...

1)
Nick Gillard's personal opinion means nothing. If it is not directly put into a canon source, it is not canon, especially not on the basis of "George Lucas maybe did agree with it."

2)
Even assuming it were credible, the problem would be that - according to his own words - Lucas never cared about anything outside the movies. Thus everything appearing in the EU later would never be factored into this kind of judgement anyway, making it totally useless for in the context of this forum.

3)
In the context of what ten tier scale?

4)
Are you just nuts?
Based on that system, Mace is equal to Yoda, which is obviously not the case. And the "perfect warrior" Anakin gets his ass handed to him by an opponent two tiers below him.

When making references to a "dark side Anakin", Gillard is obviously referring to Anakin in perfect control of his abilities, which we see at the end of his duel with Dooku and the raid on the Jedi Temple in RotS. Not the guy that we see in action on a daily basis and most certainly not the emotionally unstable punk we see losing to Kenobi.

So one might ask, what the point of this thread is? To establish that "Zonakin" might take Sidious, Yoda or Mace down? Who would have guessed...? roll eyes (sarcastic)

You said it way better than I did, lol. Agree, 100%

Nai
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lucas' own opinions are canonical. The tier system reflects Lucas' opinions since he created the system.


Nope. The "tier system" was created by Nick Gillard and nobody else. You may want to go rewatch the Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary/extras for this. Essentially, when it comes to fights, Lucas input comes down to "they fight" and the desired result. He doesn't concern himself with anything else.

As far as Lucas is concerned, you can find his take on the issue on p. 204 of "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", which still says: ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". Note the distinguished absense of Anakin from that statement.



Not any longer, given how he sold everything to Disney. Furthermore, the EU has been explicitly created to be outside the lines of what Lucas controls and cares about. And if Lucas word was absolute, Anakin got his scar by slipping in the bathtub (Lucas, RotS commentary). Not that it matters: Those words are not coming from Lucas. D'uh.



Except: He never made one. Did he? Where is it?



So Gillard happily contradicts himself on the issue? Why then put any faith in stuff he says?



Good that nobody cares what Nick Gillard has to say. I mean, seriously:

Click me

The guy denied the existence of lightsaber forms as a whole and keeps doing so. He denied the existence of Vaapad. Of course, from his perspective, it's all just "levels" and he designed them all. But canon has established far different takes on the issue, hence why his personal take on the issue means jack shit.



No. I'm "bitching" because you attempt to sell the personal ideas of a stunt-coordinator as god (or Lucas) given fact, which they aren't. Gillard's only expertise on the issue is his work for the movies. He doesn't know the lightsaber forms. He doesn't know the EU. He doesn't know anything and he keeps contradicting himself, established canon and - on the issue at hand - George Lucas himself (see quote above).



Oh. Apparently, you don't know what I think, since I generally assume, that common sense, logic and reasoning are pretty much absent from this place, every time I leave it alone. roll eyes (sarcastic)

NewGuy01
>"distinguished absence"
>yfw the next sentence is about how Anakin would have killed the Emperor if it weren't for Obi-Wan

Big Gerald
While we're on the topic of tiers, I'd put Gillard's credibility at about the Supershadow tier. So roughly equal to George Lucas.

Anakin > Yoda/Sidious

Rockydonovang
IIRC, Sidious was a tier 10 on that scale

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Nai


As far as Lucas is concerned, you can find his take on the issue on p. 204 of "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", which still says: ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". Note the distinguished absense of Anakin from that statement.




Not if you finish the statement he's not.

Ursumeles
Snoke > all three smile

Darth Thor
And Rey > Snoke eek!

playa1258
Seems like they are going to make Ben, Rey and Snoke superior to the PT/OT characters.

Hoping that's not the case though.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And Rey > Snoke eek!

Did you not watch her get telekinetically dominated by Snoke?

Darth Thor

Darth Thor

playa1258
I'm just good the don't make Luke a ***** to hype up Rey/Kylo.

Darth Thor

Darth Thor
^ But it seems Rey is going to be something more powerful than a Skywalker.

Azronger
Lucas stated Anakin = Sidious in power. Nai is wrong.

quanchi112
Originally posted by playa1258
Seems like they are going to make Ben, Rey and Snoke superior to the PT/OT characters.

Hoping that's not the case though. I told you this years ago. Many don't want to believe it but it was pretty obvious from the force awakens. Only natural to go bigger in the next trilogy. Next time listen to me, kiddo.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>"distinguished absence"
>yfw the next sentence is about how Anakin would have killed the Emperor if it weren't for Obi-Wan

Which, given the structure of the sentence (if Anakin could have done it anytime throughout ROTS, wouldn't George have said "you need to be Mace, Yoda, or Anakin to compete with the Emperor"?) and the development of the actual story (e.g. Kenobi being established fodder for Sheev but good enough to take on a Anakin in a protracted duel as a plot point that the script explicitly states), most likely speaks to Anakin's eventual ability to defeat Palpatine.

Darth Thor
^ Point being Nai shouldn't make out Anakin just wasn't mentioned at all. When he clearly was.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Nai
Oh my...

1)
Nick Gillard's personal opinion means nothing. If it is not directly put into a canon source, it is not canon, especially not on the basis of "George Lucas maybe did agree with it."

2)
Even assuming it were credible, the problem would be that - according to his own words - Lucas never cared about anything outside the movies. Thus everything appearing in the EU later would never be factored into this kind of judgement anyway, making it totally useless for in the context of this forum.

3)
In the context of what ten tier scale?

4)
Are you just nuts?
Based on that system, Mace is equal to Yoda, which is obviously not the case. And the "perfect warrior" Anakin gets his ass handed to him by an opponent two tiers below him.

When making references to a "dark side Anakin", Gillard is obviously referring to Anakin in perfect control of his abilities, which we see at the end of his duel with Dooku and the raid on the Jedi Temple in RotS. Not the guy that we see in action on a daily basis and most certainly not the emotionally unstable punk we see losing to Kenobi.

So one might ask, what the point of this thread is? To establish that "Zonakin" might take Sidious, Yoda or Mace down? Who would have guessed...? roll eyes (sarcastic) thumb up

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nai
Nope. The "tier system" was created by Nick Gillard and nobody else. You may want to go rewatch the Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary/extras for this. Essentially, when it comes to fights, Lucas input comes down to "they fight" and the desired result. He doesn't concern himself with anything else.

It's stated Lucas worked on them.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

This is from starwars.com, I believe, too. It's not even some offhand interview ten years later.

There's literally no getting around that - sorry bud.

Truly anything you say moving forward will just be met with that quote.

BTW, this is consistent with Lucas also creating tier systems for the OT, as explained in Making Empire Strikes Back.



The same book says Anakin is the GOAT, I believe, so clearly you're interpretation of that is wrong.



Disney considers whatever Lucas worked on as Canon as per Pablo just the other day - the tier systems were made by him.

Thus, they're Canon.



The ten scale one.



No contradiction present. Different scales of the same idea.



Pablo has said essentially the same thing in recent times.

Rebel95
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ But it seems Rey is going to be something more powerful than a Skywalker.
**** that. It's starting to look that way though

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rebel95
**** that. It's starting to look that way though


Yeah doesn't really make sense though does it?

How could she have more raw power than Anakin?


I'm still sure she's a Skywalker. If not a direct descendant then some weird experiment like a clone of Luke's hand or summit. But defo of that bloodline.

Nai
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>"distinguished absence"
>yfw the next sentence is about how Anakin would have killed the Emperor if it weren't for Obi-Wan

Originally posted by Azronger
Lucas stated Anakin = Sidious in power. Nai is wrong.

What the heck?
Anakin is absent from the list of people that George Lucas thinks can take the Emperor down at the time of RotS. Let Tempest explain it to you (in my defense, which should tell you I'm absolutely correct here):

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which, given the structure of the sentence (if Anakin could have done it anytime throughout ROTS, wouldn't George have said "you need to be Mace, Yoda, or Anakin to compete with the Emperor"?) and the development of the actual story (e.g. Kenobi being established fodder for Sheev but good enough to take on a Anakin in a protracted duel as a plot point that the script explicitly states), most likely speaks to Anakin's eventual ability to defeat Palpatine.

Thanks.

@DarthAnt66:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's stated Lucas worked on them.


It's also stated that Lucas did edit the RotS Novelization word by word, which didn't stop him from shitting all over it with the movie.



Yes. There is:

Those are still just comments by Nick Gillard and not George Lucas with no official "level system" by George Lucas existing. And until we see that somewhere, Nick Gillards incoherent interpretations don't mean anything. Especially not when contradicting words from George Lucas himself, saying that Anakin, as of RotS, can NOT compete with Sidious. End of story.



I've understood now, that you are a moron. Thanks.



Yes. The point is, that we don't have any "tiers" by Lucas published anywhere regarding PT characters. We only have Nick Gillard with his still incoherent references of that "level system". And it still is, pretty much, without consequence for an EU forum.



Anakin would have become the GOAT, if Obi-Wan hadn't ended his ascent to that position by chopping of some limbs. As of RotS, Anakin is clearly not capable of taking out Sidious, Yoda or Mace Windu, provided he can't even take out Obi-Wan. There isn't much to "interprete" here, considering the facts.



Unless they have been published, they are just some obscure reference material, that nobody needs to care about. Have they been published? No?



Oh. You're making a reference to a ten scale system, when Gillard clearly says that even level 9 doesn't exist? But then it does, and you can place people there. But not everytime they fight, because you need to explain away Anakin losing to Obi-Wan.

Yeah. Sounds like a coherent system that can serve as basis for arguments. Not. roll eyes (sarcastic)



"I'm not going to explain anything. Instead I will make an obscure reference to an obscure source making obscure references to an obscure tier system. And then, I win, right?" roll eyes (sarcastic)

And seriously: You even quoted contradictionary remarks by Nick Gillard (namely the placement of Obi-Wan in that tier system). Laughable.



What people say in some interviews is virtually of no consequence when it comes to "being canon". Unless it either printed, filmed or recorded otherwise under Lucasfilm License, it is basically completely meaningless. And given that I don't see the LFL stamp anywhere on that page, where you got the quote from (thanks for NOT providing a source, by the way), I guess, it's still a non-issue. Thank you very much.

Darth Thor

Azronger
-

Azronger

Haschwalth
ok, that's not accurate.

Azronger
Originally posted by Haschwalth
ok, that's not accurate.

Um, yes it is. Palpatine planned to expand his dominion beyond the known galaxy to encompass the entire universe.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by Azronger
Um, yes it is. Palpatine planned to expand his dominion beyond the known galaxy to encompass the entire universe.

You do know how big the universe is right?

Sidious would of died before he even conquered a different galaxy, let alone several Billion trillion galaxies. At their rate.

NewGuy01
Palpatine was an ambitious guy.

Azronger
Originally posted by Haschwalth
You do know how big the universe is right?

Sidious would of died before he even conquered a different galaxy, let alone several Billion trillion galaxies. At their rate.

You do know Palpatine became immortal, right?

Haschwalth
Originally posted by Azronger
You do know Palpatine became immortal, right?

I don't think George lucas's idea was the same as those writers tbh.
There is a reason they didn't bring Darth Revan/Bane back as spirits in TCW
George didn't see that as his view of the force.

And not really was he Immortal, only Vitiate grade, he didn't pursue Plagueis's work so :/

NewGuy01
According to Ian, his part in ROTJ was titled "Emperor of the Universe," so I'm guessing Lucas just uses the term loosely.

YousufKhan1212
Not that I'm trying to object to Anakin > Yoda, but Gillard's system seems to be all over the place.

Azronger
Originally posted by Haschwalth
I don't think George lucas's idea was the same as those writers tbh.
There is a reason they didn't bring Darth Revan/Bane back as spirits in TCW
George didn't see that as his view of the force.

And not really was he Immortal, only Vitiate grade, he didn't pursue Plagueis's work so :/

Of course Lucas' idea wasn't the same - what's your point?

Palpatine shits all over Vitiate in the immortality department. He arguably surpassed Plagueis too.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nai
Those are still just comments by Nick Gillard and not George Lucas with no official "level system" by George Lucas existing. And until we see that somewhere, Nick Gillards incoherent interpretations don't mean anything. Especially not when contradicting words from George Lucas himself, saying that Anakin, as of RotS, can NOT compete with Sidious. End of story.


Are you ****ing retarded?

Yes.

The tier systems were published originally on starwars.com in preparation for Episode III.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAOPveZtoE

http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

It's from here that Nick Gillard states George Lucas worked on them with him.

Thus, no, this is an official level system by George Lucas - published by Lucasfilm.

Unless you think Nick Gillard was lying in officially published material?

That argument sounds more fake than CNN to me.

https://media.tenor.com/images/11feec04851123bdf48949436941c8d6/tenor.gif

If there would be a tier system for embarrassments, you'd be tier 10. thumb up

Originally posted by Nai
Anakin would have become the GOAT, if Obi-Wan hadn't ended his ascent to that position by chopping of some limbs. As of RotS, Anakin is clearly not capable of taking out Sidious, Yoda or Mace Windu, provided he can't even take out Obi-Wan. There isn't much to "interprete" here, considering the facts.

"Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. 'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes. 'But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes.'"

No, the same book calls him the most powerful Jedi in the context of combat.

Also, this has Nick Gillard addressing how Anakin can lose despite being the greatest Jedi, which you were bitching about earlier as proof the tiers were wrong.

I'm not going to bother reading anything else since it all comes back to this, and, unsurprisingly, you're so out of your element here.

DarthAnt66
Edited. ^

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Nai
What the heck?
Anakin is absent from the list of people that George Lucas thinks can take the Emperor down at the time of RotS. Let Tempest explain it to you (in my defense, which should tell you I'm absolutely correct here):



Thanks.

@DarthAnt66:



It's also stated that Lucas did edit the RotS Novelization word by word, which didn't stop him from shitting all over it with the movie.



Yes. There is:

Those are still just comments by Nick Gillard and not George Lucas with no official "level system" by George Lucas existing. And until we see that somewhere, Nick Gillards incoherent interpretations don't mean anything. Especially not when contradicting words from George Lucas himself, saying that Anakin, as of RotS, can NOT compete with Sidious. End of story.



I've understood now, that you are a moron. Thanks.



Yes. The point is, that we don't have any "tiers" by Lucas published anywhere regarding PT characters. We only have Nick Gillard with his still incoherent references of that "level system". And it still is, pretty much, without consequence for an EU forum.



Anakin would have become the GOAT, if Obi-Wan hadn't ended his ascent to that position by chopping of some limbs. As of RotS, Anakin is clearly not capable of taking out Sidious, Yoda or Mace Windu, provided he can't even take out Obi-Wan. There isn't much to "interprete" here, considering the facts.



Unless they have been published, they are just some obscure reference material, that nobody needs to care about. Have they been published? No?



Oh. You're making a reference to a ten scale system, when Gillard clearly says that even level 9 doesn't exist? But then it does, and you can place people there. But not everytime they fight, because you need to explain away Anakin losing to Obi-Wan.

Yeah. Sounds like a coherent system that can serve as basis for arguments. Not. roll eyes (sarcastic)



"I'm not going to explain anything. Instead I will make an obscure reference to an obscure source making obscure references to an obscure tier system. And then, I win, right?" roll eyes (sarcastic)

And seriously: You even quoted contradictionary remarks by Nick Gillard (namely the placement of Obi-Wan in that tier system). Laughable.



What people say in some interviews is virtually of no consequence when it comes to "being canon". Unless it either printed, filmed or recorded otherwise under Lucasfilm License, it is basically completely meaningless. And given that I don't see the LFL stamp anywhere on that page, where you got the quote from (thanks for NOT providing a source, by the way), I guess, it's still a non-issue. Thank you very much.

https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/bravo-gif-3.gif

DarthAnt66
Prof, you keep constantly posting gifs to Nai after I already responded to him.

You should probably do it beforehand. laughing out loud

DarthAnt66
@Nai (Continued):

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. 'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes. 'But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes.'"

No, the same book calls him the most powerful Jedi in the context of combat.

Just a note: I'm not fully convinced this is from Making Episode III. The original source seems to be a published exclusive magazine leading up to Episode III, so still sanctioned nonetheless, but I felt like I should clarify. Respect threads have it labeled as Making Episode III, so it's entirely possible it's in there too. I know for sure I've seen this quote within the context of the its original posting in some setting, and I very much doubt I ever got a hold of the magazine, so I still think there's a substantial possibility it's also in Making Episode III, but I'd need someone else to confirm.

Again, not that it really matters since your issue was with the inconsistency over how Anakin could be a tier nine leaning ten and yet Obi-Wan, as a tier eight, still beat him, but it seems Nick Gillard has already noted this and addressed it. That being said, I did find in Making Episode III another reference to the tier systems (with Anakin put as a tier nine and "up with Sidious"wink, so there's another published source with them, ironically within the same book you tried to debunk the tiers with Lucas' Mace and Yoda quote. It's entirely possible Lucas neglected Anakin because Sidious could exploit Anakin's emotions, his combative Force powers aren't up to par with his lightsaber abilities, or a dozen other reasons that doesn't demand a direct contradiction.

https://i.imgur.com/2T9ULX2.png

Of course, refer to my last post too.

DarthAnt66
Frankly, Nai, you have two options here (the same I gave to Prof before he rage-quit):

- Accept Nick Gillard's statement, published on starwars.com, that George Lucas worked on them as true, making the tiers canonical.

- Argue that Nick Gillard is, for no credible reason whatsoever, lying and that George Lucas did not work on them to avoid conceding.

Frankly, you look retarded either way.

Accept it and your four pages of bitching becomes humiliating.

Deny it and you'll look like some moon-landing-was-a-hoax conspiracy nut-job.

*shrugs*

I'm entertained and will take it as a W either way.

NewGuy01
so what if he just says lucas's opinion doesn't matter either

DarthAnt66
Given Lucas' word is absolute in both LFL (EU) and LF (Lucas-Canon) policy, I'd have a field day.

Haschwalth
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Given Lucas' word is absolute in both LFL (EU) and LF (Lucas-Canon) policy, I'd have a field day.

You have convinced me, Anakin(KF) is on Yoda/Sidious level.
And greater than Plagueis/Caedus/SOR Revan/etc.

ROTS Lightside Anakin how ever is below those mentioned.

Darth Thor

NewGuy01
Oh, that's true. My bad for not following the discussion, I suppose.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Frankly, Nai, you have two options here (the same I gave to Prof before he rage-quit):

- Accept Nick Gillard's statement, published on starwars.com, that George Lucas worked on them as true, making the tiers canonical.

- Argue that Nick Gillard is, for no credible reason whatsoever, lying and that George Lucas did not work on them to avoid conceding.

Frankly, you look retarded either way.

Accept it and your four pages of bitching becomes humiliating.

Deny it and you'll look like some moon-landing-was-a-hoax conspiracy nut-job.

*shrugs*

I'm entertained and will take it as a W either way.
You forgot another option. GL was thinking loud about a tier list but never bothered to finish it or make one and Gillard felt he could complete it. Since GL never mentions it himself and since we know that his opinion like his scripts change regularely it's rather convienient that GL said something along those lines but might have a different opinion later on and the details are solely a brain child of Gillard. That's why we never see an official Tier list in canon sources (if one would officially exist it would be awesome enough and reason enough to publish it and use it), just those of some fanboys.

So don't behave like a retard and accept that some people disagree with YOUR opinion or your take on Gillards opinion/fantasy.

quanchi112
Prof. Calling anyone a retard and acting like they are closed minded is so ironic as the man openly swallowed Superman's giz for years.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
You forgot another option. GL was thinking loud about a tier list but never bothered to finish it or make one and Gillard felt he could complete it. Since GL never mentions it himself and since we know that his opinion like his scripts change regularely it's rather convienient that GL said something along those lines but might have a different opinion later on and the details are solely a brain child of Gillard. That's why we never see an official Tier list in canon sources (if one would officially exist it would be awesome enough and reason enough to publish it and use it), just those of some fanboys.

So don't behave like a retard and accept that some people disagree with YOUR opinion or your take on Gillards opinion/fantasy.
That's actually the most retarded explanation conceivably imaginable by mankind. Tribes in the Amazon rain forest who have never even used the wheel are currently screeching in terror over the sheer amount of mental gymnastics needed to even fathom something like this, especially considering it is stated that Lucas CREATED a tier system, not that he began work of it, spoke them out loud while Nick Gillard was nearby, passively watched as Nick Gillard created his own tier system for Revenge of the Sith and watched him communicate said tier system to Star Wars' official website, promotional material, magazines, the book that details the making of the Revenge of the Sith, etc.

If Nai would make such an argument, then the word "credibility" could not even be put in the same thread as him.

Nai
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Are you ****ing retarded?

Yes.


Are you mentally handicapped?



Where are they?

I don't see a LFL approved list anywhere, sorting the different characters into different tiers. Unless you bring it to the table, I will - simply put - act, as if it doesn't exist, because - spoilers - it doesn't in terms of official canon. Got that now?

So instead of giving me what I've asked for (the "tier list" that George Lucas has written down himself), you just keep bringing Nick Gillard, talking about it. Do you honestly not get how the verification of sources works? Hint: Not by citing the same source again, you lame ass excuse for an intelligent lifeform.

And then, you just do that...



...with a quote out of the year 2004.

What the hell?

Apparently, I need to explain it again. Whatever was done in some back-office during the production of Episode III is completely meaningless unless it found it's way in an officially published source. If you fail to come up with that source, I have to assume it doesn't exist in terms of canon, and hence, in terms of this forum. That Nick Gillard makes some reference to it, doesn't equal a publishing of the original material written by George Lucas and especially becomes completely moot when Gillard keeps contradicting himself.

What did find the way into a variety of published sources, after that particular interview, are the lightsaber forms Nick Gillard claims don't exist. That's what we call a "retcon". What found it's way into the published material, is the idea of George Lucas, that you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. Whether George changed his mind on the issue or LFL decided that other explanations would be preferable, doesn't matter. What matters is, that you have failed to produce the "level tiers" written by George Lucas. D'uh.



Where is the published level system? Making a reference to it in an interview is not publishing it. So bring me the source material or shut up. *shrug*



And you would be an 8. On its side. roll eyes (sarcastic)



Oh my god. Are you that dense?

What point is there in establishing a "tier system", when situational context (e.g. "emotions"wink does overwrite it anyway? Where is the point to try and introduce aforementioned tier-system as "proof" for anything, when it already fails in the only example that matters in this context? So maybe Anakin can't compete with Sidious as of RotS, because the Sith Lord would exploit his emotions. Tier system remains intact, situational context denies the idea that Anakin > Sidious. Hurr-durr.

And the "contradictions" I was pointing to, was Nick Gillard first saying, that there are just eight levels. Then suddenly there are ten levels. Then he sorts people around. Once Anakin is an 8 - maybe 9 via "cheating". Then Yoda and Mace are 8s, then Yoda is a 9, Mace an 8 bordering 9. And so on and so forth. If Nick Gillard can't make coherent statements about the supposed "level system", why should anybody give a damn about it? With the more important question being: If Anakin is always sorted in on one level with Yoda and Mace (with the "possible" sorting him one tier higher), how is that "proof" that he is superior to Yoda and Sidious? Especially when we factor in circumstances that may f... up that "level system" anyway (see: "emotions"wink. Maybe that was the reason for not publishing the "level system" in the first place?

To me, and pretty much all other intelligent people here, it's pretty obvious that Anakin, in his everyday shape in RotS, is clearly not a match for Sidious, even should he be more powerful (and in terms of raw potential he is) and even more skilled with a lightsaber than the Sith Lord. Because Sidious would outsmart him, play him, exploit his emotions. Whatever.



That would be pretty hard anyway, seeing how deep you buried your head in your own ass.



You do realize, that:

a) ...contrary to your claim, there is still no published "tier system" crafted by George Lucas himself, thus, it doesn't exist in terms of canon, even if Nick Gillard makes some obscure references to it.

b) ...the contradiction is actually whether there is an 8 or 10 level system and how the characters are placed within it.

c) ...putting Anakin on one level with Yoda, Mace and Sidious doesn't make him better than them, and you just keep making up the "bordering ten" part for Anakin, which isn't seen anywhere?

d) ...it doesn't matter at all, because of the stuff you quoted above, which essentially boils down to: "Even if Anakin is super skilled, his emotions will completely run wild and he will make mistakes that lead to his defeat." Which is great, because, really, if Obi-Wan can exploit that, what would Sidious or Yoda do?

And now for the absolute fantastic part:



What the actual f...?
Did you even read that?
Who came up with the rating for the swordmen? Nick Gillard: "I had to give them levels." No mention of Lucas assigning those levels. It was Nick Gillard, probably the only person in the entire staff even giving a shit about fighting, contrary to the guy who - according to himself (RotS commentary) puts "they fight" into his scripts, when it comes to lightsaber duels.

MythLord
I thought it was specifically noted Lucas' word isn't ultimate law in the EU?

DarthAnt66
Oh god, that's a ****ing treasure. Since I have school, I'll respond this afternoon. thumb up

Originally posted by MythLord
I thought it was specifically noted Lucas' word isn't ultimate law in the EU?

It's more complicated than that.

DarthAnt66
FWI, for those wondering, it seems Nai is half going the "Nick Gillard is lying" route and half "Nick Gillard reformed the tier systems made by Lucas" route (an opinion with substantially less evidence than there is that unicorns exist), though dodges stating that outright for obvious reasons (Nick Gillard did 9/11?)

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by Nai
Are you mentally handicapped?



Where are they?

I don't see a LFL approved list anywhere, sorting the different characters into different tiers. Unless you bring it to the table, I will - simply put - act, as if it doesn't exist, because - spoilers - it doesn't in terms of official canon. Got that now?

So instead of giving me what I've asked for (the "tier list" that George Lucas has written down himself), you just keep bringing Nick Gillard, talking about it. Do you honestly not get how the verification of sources works? Hint: Not by citing the same source again, you lame ass excuse for an intelligent lifeform.

And then, you just do that...



...with a quote out of the year 2004.

What the hell?

Apparently, I need to explain it again. Whatever was done in some back-office during the production of Episode III is completely meaningless unless it found it's way in an officially published source. If you fail to come up with that source, I have to assume it doesn't exist in terms of canon, and hence, in terms of this forum. That Nick Gillard makes some reference to it, doesn't equal a publishing of the original material written by George Lucas and especially becomes completely moot when Gillard keeps contradicting himself.

What did find the way into a variety of published sources, after that particular interview, are the lightsaber forms Nick Gillard claims don't exist. That's what we call a "retcon". What found it's way into the published material, is the idea of George Lucas, that you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. Whether George changed his mind on the issue or LFL decided that other explanations would be preferable, doesn't matter. What matters is, that you have failed to produce the "level tiers" written by George Lucas. D'uh.



Where is the published level system? Making a reference to it in an interview is not publishing it. So bring me the source material or shut up. *shrug*



And you would be an 8. On its side. roll eyes (sarcastic)



Oh my god. Are you that dense?

What point is there in establishing a "tier system", when situational context (e.g. "emotions"wink does overwrite it anyway? Where is the point to try and introduce aforementioned tier-system as "proof" for anything, when it already fails in the only example that matters in this context? So maybe Anakin can't compete with Sidious as of RotS, because the Sith Lord would exploit his emotions. Tier system remains intact, situational context denies the idea that Anakin > Sidious. Hurr-durr.

And the "contradictions" I was pointing to, was Nick Gillard first saying, that there are just eight levels. Then suddenly there are ten levels. Then he sorts people around. Once Anakin is an 8 - maybe 9 via "cheating". Then Yoda and Mace are 8s, then Yoda is a 9, Mace an 8 bordering 9. And so on and so forth. If Nick Gillard can't make coherent statements about the supposed "level system", why should anybody give a damn about it? With the more important question being: If Anakin is always sorted in on one level with Yoda and Mace (with the "possible" sorting him one tier higher), how is that "proof" that he is superior to Yoda and Sidious? Especially when we factor in circumstances that may f... up that "level system" anyway (see: "emotions"wink. Maybe that was the reason for not publishing the "level system" in the first place?

To me, and pretty much all other intelligent people here, it's pretty obvious that Anakin, in his everyday shape in RotS, is clearly not a match for Sidious, even should he be more powerful (and in terms of raw potential he is) and even more skilled with a lightsaber than the Sith Lord. Because Sidious would outsmart him, play him, exploit his emotions. Whatever.



That would be pretty hard anyway, seeing how deep you buried your head in your own ass.



You do realize, that:

a) ...contrary to your claim, there is still no published "tier system" crafted by George Lucas himself, thus, it doesn't exist in terms of canon, even if Nick Gillard makes some obscure references to it.

b) ...the contradiction is actually whether there is an 8 or 10 level system and how the characters are placed within it.

c) ...putting Anakin on one level with Yoda, Mace and Sidious doesn't make him better than them, and you just keep making up the "bordering ten" part for Anakin, which isn't seen anywhere?

d) ...it doesn't matter at all, because of the stuff you quoted above, which essentially boils down to: "Even if Anakin is super skilled, his emotions will completely run wild and he will make mistakes that lead to his defeat." Which is great, because, really, if Obi-Wan can exploit that, what would Sidious or Yoda do?

And now for the absolute fantastic part:



What the actual f...?
Did you even read that?
Who came up with the rating for the swordmen? Nick Gillard: "I had to give them levels." No mention of Lucas assigning those levels. It was Nick Gillard, probably the only person in the entire staff even giving a shit about fighting, contrary to the guy who - according to himself (RotS commentary) puts "they fight" into his scripts, when it comes to lightsaber duels.
I wouldn't even bother with Ants posts. Reading his argumentation and the denial of simple logic just hurts. His posts seem to me like they are written by a 12 year old boy who wants to force his system down the throats of others. Ignore it.

DarthAnt66
Responding in full now, but for the love of god Prof, please stop quoting the entire post you are responding to just to make a short point.

DarthAnt66
(Part 1 / 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwkej79U3ek&t=0m20s

--- --- --- --- ---

The Making of Star Wars, Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

Published source by LucasFilm?: Yes.

Features the tier system? Yes.

https://i.imgur.com/2T9ULX2.png

--- --- --- --- ---

StarWars.com - Homing Beacon #126

Published source by LucasFilm?: Yes.

Features the tier system? Yes.

https://i.imgur.com/o8pfFzy.png

--- --- --- --- ---

Star Wars Episode III - Revenge of the Sith DVD

Published source by LucasFilm?: Yes.

Features the tier system? Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PAOPveZtoE

--- --- --- --- ---

I actually went back and looked at your older posts wondering why you completely ignored the published sources I published. As you gladly debate to the end here (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=614610), you have the belief that an out-of-universe C-Canon source cannot dictate canon. You use this to justify your placement of Exar Kun around or above Palpatine. Fortunately for me, no one else has this belief, but I'm not going to waste time debating you on that when Gideon has for the last decade and has made no progress. So I'm going to say: let's agree to disagree, but just know that you're not going to be persuading really frequent user, which benefits my case drastically, since of course I want people to recognize this factual information.

So, with you particularly, the only out-of-universe claim that can be used is George Lucas himself, right? Even besides the fact that's... just incorrect, I'll play your game here.

So, we have Nick Gillard state the following within a published Lucasfilm source:



You keep dodging this point, but let's address it head-on... again.

Nick Gillard states that George Lucas created the list. We, as in myself and every non-special needs person, is operating under the assumption that, yes, Nick is therefore elaborating on George Lucas' creation when he states the tiers immediately thereafter, as indicated by him using "So," directly after noting, "George Lucas works on a system of levels." This is only the most logical explanation here. You keep suggesting the tier system was changed, reformed, modified, edited, altered, warped, twisted, or any other word, but there is no basis to this claim. There is no proof that Nick Gillard changed the tier system after George Lucas created them. This entire idea was completely fabricated by you. In fact, I'd call it straight up lying. Actually, that might not be fair to say - you do come up with some half-hearted reasons for why it must have been warped. Let's take a look:

- You: George Lucas states only Mace or Yoda can compete with Sidious.

I already provided an explanation for this, in which you response simply asked the practical purpose of why Anakin being a tier nine means anything if X, Y, and Z happen (in which Sasukedc / NewGuy01 explained to i_like_swords earlier in the thread, so check that out), rather than actually coming up with a reason why my explanation was false, so it seems you conceded the poitn as definitive proof the tier system was changed. Again, definite proof is needed when you make the claim that Nick Gillard changed the tier system after we have him, on-record, stating that George Lucas made it and then proceeded to state the tier system created by George Lucas.

- You: The tier systems are inconsistent.

They... aren't. The fact Nick Gillard has described them using scaling systems doesn't mean their inconsistent when the measuring is inconsistent.

I decided to create for you a visual representation of why it isn't inconsistent, since you seem to be... slow.

https://i.imgur.com/O5h9HVJ.png

As you can see, even though the scales are different, the result is the same.

Again, consider the point of the tiers are to show which swordsman are better than which.

- You: The tier systems are retconned by the lightsaber forms.

No, they're entirely different concepts. This is one of those instances where you're actually right: Nick Gillard's opinion on lightsaber forms doesn't matter. The fact Nick Gillard recognizes or does not recognize the lightsaber forms has no bearing on the tier systems created by George Lucas, which are not remotely similiar in any way other than that they also have numbers attributed to them. Frankly, Nick Gillard seems to be under the impression that the lightsaber forms were created based on the tier systems. I'm not sure if that's true or not - I actually don't think it is - but that's not relevant. They are not two different versions of the same idea. One is the ranking of lightsaber duelists in skill. The other is outlining the primary lightsaber forms that Nick Gillard invented into seven categories.

--- --- --- --- ---

Finally, I'll go through your final points one-by-one to clarify any confusing details. messed



It's not an obscure reference, it's direct. Also, this idea that George Lucas has to publicly state the tier system for it to be canonical is laughable. Nick Gillard is speaking on the behalf of Nick Gillard in this situation.

Thus, we're back to my original proposition to you:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Frankly, Nai, you have two options here (the same I gave to Prof before he rage-quit):

- Accept Nick Gillard's statement, published on starwars.com, that George Lucas worked on them as true, making the tiers canonical.

- Argue that Nick Gillard is, for no credible reason whatsoever, lying and that George Lucas did not work on them to avoid conceding.

Frankly, you look retarded either way.

Accept it and your four pages of bitching becomes humiliating.

Deny it and you'll look like some moon-landing-was-a-hoax conspiracy nut-job.

*shrugs*

I'm entertained and will take it as a W either way.

DarthAnt66
(Part 2 / 2)



Addressed with a picture in case words are too complex for you.



Correct, but we have this statement that clarifies that Anakin is, indeed, better than them.

And yes, before you ask, we are operating under the assumption Nick Gillard has not changed the tier systems since George Lucas created them.

Why?

Because Nick Gillard's statements here are consistent with statements he made back in a 2005 interview about the tier system.



Nick Gillard has eight bordering nine, with Mace having the ability to drift on over to nine.

With Anakin, I'm assuming the same idea is in play, just with nine and ten.

That's a far more logical conclusion to reach then:

THE ENTIRE TIER SYSTEMS ARE THEREFORE NON-CANONICAL BECAUSE OF A PERCEIVED INCONSISTENCY!



That depends on a lot of factors, actually. As I mentioned earlier, check out Sasukedc / NewGuy01's post to i_like_swords.



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O-D6CkcRcmI/UBq08n7So-I/AAAAAAAAA6c/ub7gLYteDrg/s1600/its-okay-to-be-different.jpeg

Tell me why George Lucas and Nick Gillard couldn't have made them together. George Lucas would have still created them. Nick Gillard would have still created them.

Let's look back to the Making of Empire Strikes Back to see if there's any useful information:

The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.

Oh, look at that. Yeah, seems the same thing George Lucas and Leigh Brackett did for the original trilogy was done with George Lucas and Nick Gillard in the prequel trilogy.

--- --- --- --- ---

Your argument is legitimately terrible.

Yes, George Lucas created the tier system outlined in the starwars.com interview.

No, there is no reason to believe otherwise, even though you really, really want to.

I... I don't really know what more to say. Everything seems pretty obvious, but I imagine you'll continue this out for eternity. Isn't that how every debate with you and Gideon ended, after all? As I said earlier, if Gideon couldn't persuade you that Sidious beats Kun, I very much doubt I'll persuade you on this, and I do have a limit at which I will just decide to stop responding. Already, it seems, I have most of the forum agreeing with me, and across this debate, it seems even more users have decided to agree with me based on how retarded your own argument is. Given how there would be no point in me continuing unless someone below specifies they are hesitant here and want to see where this debate goes before they reach a conclusion, I see no reason to continue responding to your endless wall-of-texts.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Can we agree that this tier list is not in the official canon as a tier list? And hence also not anywhere on any site? So if you want to see it as canon go ahead, that's ok but since there is no official list published I consider it not canon.

You can persuade me though, just show me this tier list on an official site, a complete list as you visualized it (just the one from GL), shouldn't be hard with something that is considered canon by the SW staff.

DarthAnt66
No, since I literally listed a bunch of published Lucasfilm sources in my first post of two above that include it.

Unless you're doing Nai's "out-of-universe C-Canon sources don't count," they should be sufficient.

If not, continue reading.



Then you're wrong.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
You can persuade me though, just show me this tier list on an official site, a complete list as you visualized it (just the one from GL), shouldn't be hard with something that is considered canon by the SW staff.

You want George Lucas' list posted on the official website?

Here: http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0 smile

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DarthAnt66


No, since I literally listed a bunch of published Lucasfilm sources in my first post of two above that include it.

Unless you're doing Nai's "out-of-universe C-Canon sources don't count," they should be sufficient.

If not, continue reading.



Then you're wrong.



You want George Lucas' list posted on the official website?

Here: http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YmMNpbFjp0 smile

I simply don't see it sorry. I mean if GL worked on it and finished it, why not publish it as a tier list. This is a simple interview.

You know such a list would be gold for the websites, magazines etc.? So why don't we have it? Was it not finished, was GL just working on it to never finish it and did Gillard took it upon himself. Did GL just forget to provide it to the official canon sources so they never published it?

As it stands now, it's simply not canon. But thanks for trying, no offense.

To make it more simple. The interview you showed me says that GL is working in a list and Obi-Wan would be something like a 6 or 7. Which makes sense, because GL was not sure yet if Obi-Wan is a 6 or 7 it seems, else the number would be set. We get only some indicators on how this list could look like but there is no list in this article. Let me help you. This would be a list.

Obi Wan 7, Anakin 8 (amped 9) Yoda 9, Sidious 9, Dooku 9, Vader 10, Han Solo 20...

I hope you understand it now.

So it means the list was not finished (is working on it, 6 or 7 etc.) and since it was never published he never finished it or didn't put it into canon. I would assume that he stoped bothering and concentrated on the story telling and Gillard just continued on the very little info that GL gave him.

DarthAnt66
You are genuinely the most infuriating member I have ever come across - more so than RoboticR2, WildBantha88, The_Ellimist, Nephthys, Kbroskywalker, etc.

The fact Nick Gillard doesn't state a definitive ranking for Obi-Wan doesn't mean the list wasn't done - it means that the tiers have a range.

Since, you know, abilities are dependent on multiple factors and are rarely static at one given level.

And then you ask: why wasn't it published?

It's on the website, is it not?

It's in the Revenge of the Sith behind-the-scenes DVD, is it not?

It's in the Making of Revenge of the Sith, is it not?

It's in the prima guide for ROTS video game, is it not?

If there is a tier system stated to be finished by Lucas, and then it's published by Lucasfilm within a work, then it's ****ing published.

ziggtard
My take regarding everything posted

1 - Lucas probably did work (or agree) on a nine tier system. Making the system part of "g-canon" for it's worth now.

2 - Anakin using the dark side is on a level nine, with Yoda and Sidious.

3 - There is however, no evidence that Lucas ever rated Anakin above nine. This seems to be the incoherent interjection of Gillard that is both contradicted by earlier and later interviews.

4 - George thinks that if Anakin and Sidious fought, Sids would get the better of him (you have to mace or Yoda to compete with the emperor) regardless of wether their power levels are the same

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are genuinely the most infuriating member I have ever come across - more so than RoboticR2, WildBantha88, The_Ellimist, Nephthys, Kbroskywalker, etc.

No, it says "George Lucas CREATED a list," as in it was COMPLETED.

The fact Nick Gillard doesn't state a definitive ranking for Obi-Wan doesn't mean the list wasn't done - it means that the tiers have a range.

Since, you know, abilities are dependent on multiple factors and are rarely static at one given level.

And then you ask: why wasn't it published?

It's on the website, is it not?

It's in the Revenge of the Sith behind-the-scenes DVD, is it not?

It's in the Making of Revenge of the Sith, is it not?

It's in the prima guide for ROTS video game, is it not?

That means it's ****ing published.
Quote from the website you posted:
"George Lucas works on a system of levels."

Works on != completed.

A list was never published, just interviews of one man giving contradicting numbers. A list looks differently, as I tried to explain to you.

And sorry if my stance makes you angry but the scientist in me just wants facts, consistent data and a proper wording.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Quote from the website you posted:
"George Lucas works on a system of levels."

Works on != completed.

Consider the context.



It was stated by Nick Gillard.



False.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ziggtard
My take regarding everything posted

1 - Lucas probably did work (or agree) on a nine tier system. Making the system part of "g-canon" for it's worth now.

2 - Anakin using the dark side is on a level nine, with Yoda and Sidious.

Thank you.



Gillard has been stating Anakin is supreme as earlier back as 2005.



I put Sidious above Anakin.

Prof. T.C McAbe
So if you read a created or completed instead of the two words "works on" I can understand where you went off track and got everything wrong.

BTW nice edit of your post, the original can be read in my wink.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's a major distinction between that and "working."

Consider the tense it was stated in.



It was stated by Nick Gillard.



False.

Ok, now I am lost with you. My "interpretation" of "works on" is so far off track but your "No, it says "George Lucas CREATED a list," as in it was COMPLETED" interpretation of "works on" is the ultimate truth?

Ok, wow.

DarthAnt66
I wasn't trying to slide by you - I know that you quoted it. I read the post, remember? I was simply correcting myself - I briefly misremembered, but not that it matters.

Rest assured, my argument doesn't hinge on a difference between "created" and "works," since the same point is conveyed.

As of that interview, the film making is currently undergoing, as indicated by:

When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are.

At the same time, George Lucas "works" on a leveling system.

What we are reading is the same tier list presented by Nick Gillard in the Revenge of the Sith DVD and Making Episode III. Thus, we can conclude Lucas did not change the tier systems after its current state.

Therefore, the fact Lucas is currently working on it or not is irrelevant, given no significant changes were made.

Again, the argument you have for this is that Nick Gillard changed the tiers George Lucas had, but since we can see what Lucas had and it matches what Gillard had, he didn't.

The alternative that can be presented is that George Lucas edited the lists further but didn't tell Gillard, but that doesn't make sense since Lucas is making them for and with Gillard to use when working on the fights.

Yes, as I said to Nai, there are assumptions that have to be made; however, the assumptions are far more logical than the alternative you are presenting.

(Final Edit: 6:06 PM ET)

Prof. T.C McAbe
"Yes, as I said to Nai, there are assumptions that have to be made; however, the assumptions are far more logical than the alternative you are presenting."

Finally some progress. Ok, if a tier list would exists and be canon, would there be a need for assumptions?

An example:

Let's assume this is posted as a canon tier list.
1. Yoda, Sidious
2. Anakin, Obi-Wan
3. Dooku, Mace
4. Spiderman, Hulk

Can we assume in this list something or is it obvious/clear?

If we have to assume something, then it's better to go by actuall feats instead of some vague numbers.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
"Yes, as I said to Nai, there are assumptions that have to be made; however, the assumptions are far more logical than the alternative you are presenting."

Finally some progress. Ok, if a tier list would exists and be canon, would there be a need for assumptions?

Oh, please. You're acting like the only way something can be canonical is if a book writes a list that goes:

9: Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Mace
8: Obi-Wan, Maul, Dooku
7: Qui-Gon, Kit, Grievous.

etc. etc.

That's not true. If it is Lucas created, then it is Canon. That's actually how it works.

Any version of this debate requires some assumption to be made.

My assumption is that Nick Gillard isn't lying. That's an easy assumption to make.

Your assumption is either Lucas changed the tiers but didn't tell Gillard (defies logic), or that Gillard changed the lists (factually incorrect).

And then Nai's is a list of so many assumptions that it took me pages to address in its entirety.

So, as you can see, we can conclude that these are indeed the canonical tier lists, given it's the only logical choice.

You can call that an assumption, but perhaps I used the wrong word. It's a conclusion based on the evidence.

DarthAnt66
Or do you think I'm assuming what the tiers itself are? I'm not. The tiers are directly stated.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oh, please. You're acting like the only way something can be canonical is if a book writes a list that goes:

9: Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Mace
8: Obi-Wan, Maul, Dooku
7: Qui-Gon, Kit, Grievous.

etc. etc.

That's not true. If it is Lucas created, then it is Canon. That's actually how it works.

Any version of this debate requires some assumption to be made.

My assumption is that Nick Gillard isn't lying. That's an easy assumption to make.

Your assumption is either Lucas changed the tiers but didn't tell Gillard (defies logic), or that Gillard changed the lists (factually incorrect).

And then Nai's is a list of so many assumptions that it took me pages to address in its entirety.

So, as you can see, we can conclude that these are indeed the canonical tier lists, given it's the only logical choice.

You can call that an assumption, but perhaps I used the wrong word. It's a conclusion based on the evidence.

And here we go again.

Let's agree to disagree. For you it's canon, for me it is not canon. Everythings cool that way.

Darth Thor

DarthAnt66
I'm not going to come to your house and force you to change your mind, but I'm going to call you out if you're running around acting like your stance is just as legitimate as mine.

It's factually incorrect to claim the tier systems are not canonical.

After all,

George Lucas' thoughts and creations = G-Canon.

The tier system = George Lucas' thoughts and creations.

The tier system = G-Canon.

How do we know the tier system represents George Lucas' thoughts and creations?

Since Nick Gillard said so.

How do we know the tier system was completed?

Since Nick Gillard is using that same tier system in 2005 at the end of filming.

How do we know George Lucas didn't change it and didn't tell Nick Gillard?

Since Nick Gillard would need to know, since the tiers are made for him.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Then stop barging into threads and acting like your opinion is legitimate, since it's not.

I'm not going to come to your house and force you to change your mind, but I'm going to call you out if you're running around acting like your opinion is just as legitimate as my factual stance.

It's factually incorrect to claim the tier systems are not canonical.

After all,

George Lucas' thoughts and creations = G-Canon.

The tier system = George Lucas' thoughts and creations.

The tier system = G-Canon.

See that's your opinion and I am cool with it. It's as valid as my or Nais opinion. And no worries I will call you out too and explain that your opinion is based on your assumptions.

Finally we have an good agreement.

DarthAnt66
I edited / expanded the post.

What's an opinion? Where are my assumptions?

Literally my only assumption is that Nick Gillard is not lying.

Now considering it, can that even be called an assumption?

Seems more like an assumption to think he is, right?

Prof. T.C McAbe
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What's an opinion? Where are my assumptions?

Literally my only assumption is that Nick Gillard is not lying.

Now considering it, can that even be called an assumption?

The first question is not mean seriously I hope. As for the second, you said it best "assumptions to be made."

Hope that helps.

But I am off now. I understand your opinion and if you want to believe it, go ahead, I am not here to change your mind^^.

DarthAnt66
No, please do tell me. Show me where the opinion is.

The assumption that has to be made on my behalf is that no one is lying.

That's not even an assumption, really - perhaps I misspoke when I even called it one.

On the other side, you are assuming a list of things, many of which defy all logic, to render the lists non-canonical.

Azronger
Originally posted by ziggtard
My take regarding everything posted

1 - Lucas probably did work (or agree) on a nine tier system. Making the system part of "g-canon" for it's worth now.

2 - Anakin using the dark side is on a level nine, with Yoda and Sidious.

3 - There is however, no evidence that Lucas ever rated Anakin above nine. This seems to be the incoherent interjection of Gillard that is both contradicted by earlier and later interviews.

4 - George thinks that if Anakin and Sidious fought, Sids would get the better of him (you have to mace or Yoda to compete with the emperor) regardless of wether their power levels are the same

Welcome back bro. I asked Badabing if he'd stop banning you and he said he will so long as you don't draw negative attention to yourself.

ziggtard
Originally posted by Azronger
Welcome back bro. I asked Badabing if he'd stop banning you

Thanks bro, Appreciate it.



kek

YousufKhan1212
Ant's embarrassing Nai, tbfh.

Nai

DarthAnt66
Damn, Nai's shift in tone between all his previous posts and this one is juicy.

https://spoonuniversity.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/giphy.gif

As in, the change from "this is how it is; you are wrong and stupid" to "well, you see, this is, uh, how I personally view it."

I know I said I likely wouldn't respond, but given Nai posted a lot of relatively new arguments that are just begging to be addressed, I feel I have no choice.

I'm currently working on my college applications at the moment though, so it might have to wait a few hours or days.

DarthAnt66
While I don't address everything you said with a quote, I do believe almost all your points are covered somewhere in my post.



First, the red text:

This reveals that the George Lucas' work on "a system of levels" is used by (and presumably for) Nick Gillard for the purpose of gauging the competence of combatants.

George Lucas has stated that there are two separate Star Wars universes:



This viewpoint is recognized by Lucas Licensing, which handles the Expanded Universe:



There's two things to take from this. One of which I already stated, the second is that the Expanded Universe is subjective (i.e. foggy mirror).

Now, here's the best part: within the context of the Expanded Universe continuity, levels were established to organize continuity within Lucas Licensing.

You're familiar with them, and also probably familiar with the quote I'm about to show you, but perhaps you need a refresher:



Man! So George Lucas' unpublished notes are the highest level of authority within the same continuity of Exar Kun's amulet blasts?

https://media.giphy.com/media/eHYazg6wGDqYE/200.gif

Which then leads us into the blue text:

Anakin Skywalker is stated to be a tier nine in George Lucas' tier system. Published or not, it doesn't matter, it's G-Canon.

So, let's outline what we have here:

Both within George Lucas' absolute continuity, and the Expanded Universe's subjective continuity, Anakin is a level nine swordsman.

That's fact. That's law. That's that.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Now, with that established, let's address some points!



This argument made my physically cringe when I read it. Rather than arguing for the sheer incompetence of Nick Gillard, let me propose you with the likely alternative: George Lucas never designed a set scale in the first place. It's not of George's nature to always set-in-stone something like that. Simply look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvi_qx-2j1Q&t=1m17s. This isn't Lucas being incompetent either, it's that just details aren't relevant to conveying the point. It doesn't matter to Lucas what scale is used for lightsaber combat. Frankly, what very well might have happened is Lucas simply used different scales during different meetings with Nick Gillard - perhaps even within the very same meaning. However, the main idea is still expressed. Regardless of what scale is being used, there is incredible consistency with the tiers: Anakin still ends up the same level; Obi-Wan still ends up the same level. So yeah, this is a completely minor point to me, and it should be for you too.



Except why are you expecting lightsaber duelists to be static? They're not. Some lightsaber duelists can't be constrained to a simple level. Indeed, Anakin is alongside Sidious, Yoda, and Mace - he is in their tier, is he not? That does not preclude Anakin from being, in certain situations, greater than them, however. Again, consider Mace varies between an eight and a nine, yet he is also listed alongside Sidious and Yoda, who do not. There is no contradiction in this quote.



This... just isn't true. We know it isn't true since we know they're created to gauge how skilled combatants are. Yes, of course it doesn't factor in context to specific situations, but it's mighty useful for forum debating, is it not? In regards to Anakin and Obi-Wan, again, refer to Sasukedc's post. Sasukedc goes through the Revenge of the Sith novelization (line-edited by George Lucas, mind you), in which it explains Anakin was significantly handicapped in his fight vs Obi-Wan due to a variety of factors that would not come into play on a neutral battlefield. So, indeed, if there is a list of factors for a fight, it might not be that important. If it's standard mindset in an empty environment, like almost all versus fights are, it's very important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQpKb0U800I&t=2m48s

Rockydonovang

DarthAnt66
The video was a parody diss.

Rockydonovang
Doesn't make it any less, as you would say, "cringey"

DarthAnt66
erm

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by NewGuy01
>anakin is like drugs to reach enlightenment

inb4 DMB becomes new anakin brigade leader

That's become Ant's position.

He's more like forum leader though.

UCanShootMyNova
He's always been. He just wasn't able to get the same backing for Revan he did for Anakin.

DarthAnt66
I've gotten probably more support for Revan than Anakin, luz.

Difference is you can't tell since it's so deeply rooted here and elsewhere.

Rockydonovang
During my stay on the forums Revan has gone lower and lower both cross-era and in his own era while Anakin has gone higher and higher both cross-era and in respect to his own era.

I find the above claim dubious.

NewGuy01
In other words, your stay here hasn't been very long.

DarthAnt66
thumb up

HentaiLover
Bullshit. Anakin couldn't even defeat Obi Wan who's a seven.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.