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Some people think taxes are a necessary evil (me) and some people think that taxes are not ethical/moral (socool8520).


This thread is to discuss whether or not you want taxes, how do use them, or if you do not want taxes and how to live without them.



Originally posted by socool8520
Fair enough. I personally don't feel it is my responsibility to care for everyone else not directly affecting me, but I can see it from a moral standpoint to a degree. If you can somehow support others with the taxes already being pulled from to help others, then cool.

I just don't like the idea of somebody taking money from me that I earned to give to someone else who hasn't earned it. I don't believe you're entitled to anything just for existing. That's just me though


If we go that route, then firefighters, police, civil servants (of all types including lawyers provided by the state, which is a constitutional right), military, and even government funding scientific research has to go away. But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you have an idea and you only me income taxes have to go away? I agree. I think we can do just fine if we get rid of income taxes. We just need to figure out how to fix our broken tax system, scale back what we spend, and spend smarter.


I think we can have our cake and eat it too: I think we can have a universal healthcare solution AND have no income taxes.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Some people think taxes are a necessary evil (me) and some people think that taxes are not ethical/moral (socool8520).


This thread is to discuss whether or not you want taxes, how do use them, or if you do not want taxes and how to live without them.






If we go that route, then firefighters, police, civil servants (of all types including lawyers provided by the state, which is a constitutional right), military, and even government funding scientific research has to go away. But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you have an idea and you only me income taxes have to go away? I agree. I think we can do just fine if we get rid of income taxes. We just need to figure out how to fix our broken tax system, scale back what we spend, and spend smarter.


I think we can have our cake and eat it too: I think we can have a universal healthcare solution AND have no income taxes.

I never said that taxes were immoral. lol I'm not Ben Shapiro. I simply said i shouldn't be taxed so much solely for taking care of everyone else.

I also disagree that all those would need to be removed. I will gladly front the money for a service provided which everything you mentioned does. I pay money, they provide a much needed service. I'm all for that. What I don't feel the need for (and I admit I may just be not compassionate enough) is to give money away to help others who do not provide me with anything in return.

I would be much more in agreeance with welfare and universal healthcare if those who were too poor to afford help themselves were made to go to a trade school or become certified to fix our road systems or something of the like. Then we would be getting something in return.

IMO they already collect more than enough, the government is just inefficient as hell when it comes to spending our money.

Tax is theft...at least how it is now.

I think federal taxation is WAY too high. State taxes are reasonable and actually go to useful sh1t like infrastructure, fire-departments, etc.

Too much BS in federal funding though.

What were your thoughts on how we achieve UHC and no taxes DDM?

Depends on what it's used for. Though despite my qualms with a lot that the US government does, I'm happier with the US government than I am with the alternative of no government, a third-world shithole government, European governments that have their sovereignty encroached upon and have a migrant crisis and terrorism to deal with, or the dangerously authoritarian headed Canadian government that is heading down a path of compelling ideology in its citizens.

As somebody who views John Locke as the greatest political philosopher, I agree with him that government is a necessary social contract, a sacrifice of some property and liberty to protect life, liberty, and property as a whole. There are misuses of taxpayer money sure, but nothing so excessive I'd consider the standard for justifying rebellion remotely justified, so the government as a whole is something I'd absolutely consider legitimate.

**** Taxes and **** da Gubmint! Let those Theives get bye trying to make their own way for a while.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Some people think taxes are a necessary evil (me) and some people think that taxes are not ethical/moral (socool8520).


This thread is to discuss whether or not you want taxes, how do use them, or if you do not want taxes and how to live without them.






If we go that route, then firefighters, police, civil servants (of all types including lawyers provided by the state, which is a constitutional right), military, and even government funding scientific research has to go away. But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you have an idea and you only me income taxes have to go away? I agree. I think we can do just fine if we get rid of income taxes. We just need to figure out how to fix our broken tax system, scale back what we spend, and spend smarter.


I think we can have our cake and eat it too: I think we can have a universal healthcare solution AND have no income taxes.

If the option is yes or no, obviously it's a yes. A modern society needs funding to function. I could see a no tax system working in a tribal environment, where's there's a few hundred people policing themselves, looking out for the community, specific roles are laid out, bartering etc. Expand beyond a tribe and we need a more rigid/expansive system and that cost money.

As you noted, it does seem like we could do away with a lot of taxes if our system wasn't so broken with money leaking out pores. We throw trillions at a system and then elect degenerates to run it.

eg I'm sure our military could be streamlined to be just as efficient at destroying the next 10 countries over and not cost us nearly 600billion a year. Same goes for healthcare services, i'm certain it could be made more efficient at a lower cost. Social Security is one I'm not so eager to touch though.

We could save Billions (If not Trillions) if we simply cut the Leftist Corruption and Bullshit Programs right off the bat.

I'll agree add to Fly's post with "That goes for the right too."

Originally posted by Robtard
If the option is yes or no, obviously it's a yes. A modern society needs funding to function. I could see a no tax system working in a tribal environment, where's there's a few hundred people policing themselves, looking out for the community, specific roles are laid out, bartering etc. Expand beyond a tribe and we need a more rigid/expansive system and that cost money.

As you noted, it does seem like we could do away with a lot of taxes if our system wasn't so broken with money leaking out pores. We throw trillions at a system and then elect degenerates to run it.

eg I'm sure our military could be streamlined to be just as efficient at destroying the next 10 countries over and not cost us nearly 600billion a year. Same goes for healthcare services, i'm certain it could be made more efficient at a lower cost. Social Security is one I'm not so eager to touch though.


This country is run like the mob.

Probably because it has actual criminals running it. See Whitey, Bulger.

Originally posted by cdtm
This country is run like the mob.

Probably because it has actual criminals running it. See Whitey, Bulger.

Dunno, Mobs seems to have their shit in order, sure it's a corrupt system, but they're not leaking like a gutted pig.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'll agree add to Fly's post with "That goes for the right too."

This is why I always say that when people get all Butt Hurt about the Gubmint getting "Shut Down" I always say they shut down the WRONG Halfs!

We should just shut down D.C for a few months and imprison Nancy Pelosi with out trial.

SO MUCH MONEY SAVED!!!!!!

Necessary evil. The majority of federal taxes go for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Defense.

Our State taxes go toward Education, Transportation, Prisons, Police, Pensions and Parks and recreation.

Originally posted by Kurk
Tax is theft...at least how it is now.

I think federal taxation is WAY too high. State taxes are reasonable and actually go to useful sh1t like infrastructure, fire-departments, etc.

Too much BS in federal funding though. such as...?

Originally posted by Killjoy12
Necessary evil. The majority of federal taxes go for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Defense.

Our State taxes go toward Education, Transportation, Prisons, Police, Pensions and Parks and recreation.

I'm all for paying taxes on things that benefit me and provide a service.

Originally posted by socool8520
I never said that taxes were immoral. lol I'm not Ben Shapiro. I simply said i shouldn't be taxed so much solely for taking care of everyone else.

My fault. I thought you were anti-income taxes because of your wording. I wanted to give you your own thread to discuss it because I do have the no-income taxes lean.

Yes, all taxes go to helping everyone else: that's what taxes are.



Originally posted by socool8520
I also disagree that all those would need to be removed. I will gladly front the money for a service provided which everything you mentioned does. I pay money, they provide a much needed service. I'm all for that. What I don't feel the need for (and I admit I may just be not compassionate enough) is to give money away to help others who do not provide me with anything in return.

Then I think you could easily be swayed with the Fair Tax system which means pretty much everyone pays taxes. Anyone who spends money, pays taxes. That means we all would be providing services for each other and the homeless and destitute would get free healthcare while all the rest of us "contribute."

Originally posted by socool8520
I would be much more in agreeance with welfare and universal healthcare if those who were too poor to afford help themselves were made to go to a trade school or become certified to fix our road systems or something of the like. Then we would be getting something in return.

I 100% agree with you. If someone benefits from the system, they should be required to work for the "community." If they can hold a sign up at a street corner, they can wash windows, empty trashcans, etc.

Originally posted by dadudemon
My fault. I thought you were anti-income taxes because of your wording. I wanted to give you your own thread to discuss it because I do have the no-income taxes lean.

Yes, all taxes go to helping everyone else: that's what taxes are.

Oh, you mean no income tax. While I have benefited from this, I could definitely see the reasoning for not receiving that check every year for tax breaks. I'm not against taking that away.





Originally posted by dadudemon
Then I think you could easily be swayed with the Fair Tax system which means pretty much everyone pays taxes. Anyone who spends money, pays taxes. That means we all would be providing services for each other and the homeless and destitute would get free healthcare while all the rest of us "contribute."

Absolutely. I agree that taxes are a necessary evil for infrastructure and civil service funding.

I would be okay with aiding people who have some people disability that physically prohibits them from working enough to pay for their own well-being. Just being poor is not reason enough for me though. If they want better healthcare or access to it at all, then they should have to do something extra to get it if they can't afford it already. Much like the things you mentioned in the post below.



Originally posted by dadudemon
I 100% agree with you. If someone benefits from the system, they should be required to work for the "community." If they can hold a sign up at a street corner, they can wash windows, empty trashcans, etc.

I'm glad we can agree on that. lol

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This is pretty accurate.

Taxation, for all intents and purposes, is theft. It involves the state forcefully taking the capital of individuals that was fairly earned off the back of their own labour. If one refuses to pay up, there is dire consequences. It is akin to a mugging.

However, unlike mugging, you technically get something back from this. Or at least in theory. The issue is, however, you don't get a say on what this tax money is to go towards.

That said, without some form of taxation, you can't really have a state - or at the very least not a very effective one. The theft problem would potentially be rectified by introducing a voluntary tax system. This would mean that taxation can only be paid with the consent of the individual who is paying them. While this theory is attractive, it is questionable on its effectiveness and may lead to the government lacking the sufficient funds to function the institutions it does fund.

If taxation is an necessary evil, it is my view that is should be limited to such a degree so as to be sufficient enough to maintain a limited minarchist government. With a lot of the institutions that governments currently fund in the West being handed over to the ebb and flow of the free market.

Having said that, Haggis, I really don't see an alternative. We live in the countries with political systems that decide the tax systems and I don't wanna live on a remote pacific island just to avoid taxes. I think USA claims them anyway.

The way I see it, we give them money and they give us roads, food regulation and social housing. It's not perfect, but it's alright.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Some people think taxes are a necessary evil (me) and some people think that taxes are not ethical/moral (socool8520).


This thread is to discuss whether or not you want taxes, how do use them, or if you do not want taxes and how to live without them.






If we go that route, then firefighters, police, civil servants (of all types including lawyers provided by the state, which is a constitutional right), military, and even government funding scientific research has to go away. But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you have an idea and you only me income taxes have to go away? I agree. I think we can do just fine if we get rid of income taxes. We just need to figure out how to fix our broken tax system, scale back what we spend, and spend smarter.


I think we can have our cake and eat it too: I think we can have a universal healthcare solution AND have no income taxes.
Very interesting idea for a thread!

Personally, I think taxes are inevitable but they need to be minimal.

What I mean is that at the basis level people voluntarily lead their lives within a given society need to support basis societal needs. Basic, as in, needs that pertain to keeping order and safety so that the society can function.

In this respect some of the examples you've given, that is, law-enforcement, military and civil servants will be subsidized by taxes the first two are need to maintain safety and the rule of law, and the last one is needed to be the bridge between the government and the people. I would include infrastructure here too.

This would be something that I call essential, uncontested needs.

The matters of healthcare and education can be privately maintained, given that within such complex political structure as a country different regions and various groups will have different needs.

Scientific research is tricky, I have to think about it more.

IMHO Anything that goes beyond that will always be contested and usually one group or the other will be either a victim or a beneficiary of taxation. This breeds tension and suspicion (almost always justified) that your money is wasted.

Originally posted by Foxsteak
Having said that, Haggis, I really don't see an alternative. We live in the countries with political systems that decide the tax systems and I don't wanna live on a remote pacific island just to avoid taxes. I think USA claims them anyway.

In the current system there is no alternative, indeed. However, hypothetically there are alternatives. These can come in the form of a volunteerist approach, like I said in my post that taxation would be strictly voluntary. The other option would be to abolish the government and have anarchy.

I'm more libertarian minded than most people, thus both options do have their appeal to me to some extent, however I'm not fully committed to them. Thus, like you said taxation seems like the only way if some form of proper state is to be maintained.



Well, roads could potentially be privatised. The effects of this are uncertain, but if I was to hazard a guess, the roads would probably have better upkeep due to the nature of business. If a company fails to provide a decent service at a good price, then they won't get much business. Government, on the other hand has a monopoly on roads, thus meaning they are not pressured by competition to provide a good service leading to faulty roads. Granted, however, that road privatisation has environmental hazards.

Food regulation, while making sense assumes that companies would want to sell dodgy foods. If they did, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot as they will garner a bad reputation if consumers become ill or worse and thus people will not do business with them leading to a loss in profits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't social housing a mess currently?

Just like to note that I'm not entirely sure I take these stances, just playing around with ideas. The point is, if taxes do exist, they should be minimised.

i wouldn't mind being taxed so heavily if i had the option of electing where i can put my taxes.

Originally posted by RHaggis
In the current system there is no alternative, indeed. However, hypothetically there are alternatives. These can come in the form of a volunteerist approach, like I said in my post that taxation would be strictly voluntary. The other option would be to abolish the government and have anarchy.

I'm more libertarian minded than most people, thus both options do have their appeal to me to some extent, however I'm not fully committed to them. Thus, like you said taxation seems like the only way if some form of proper state is to be maintained.



Well, roads could potentially be privatised. The effects of this are uncertain, but if I was to hazard a guess, the roads would probably have better upkeep due to the nature of business. If a company fails to provide a decent service at a good price, then they won't get much business. Government, on the other hand has a monopoly on roads, thus meaning they are not pressured by competition to provide a good service leading to faulty roads. Granted, however, that road privatisation has environmental hazards.

Food regulation, while making sense assumes that companies would want to sell dodgy foods. If they did, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot as they will garner a bad reputation if consumers become ill or worse and thus people will not do business with them leading to a loss in profits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't social housing a mess currently?

Just like to note that I'm not entirely sure I take these stances, just playing around with ideas. The point is, if taxes do exist, they should be minimised. Well, I didn't really pick those as to discuss them, but, sure, we can.

As for roads, you pointed out environmental hazards, there are also factors such as where people live in proximity to those roads. I don't want a big ass road near where I live.

Food regulation is an issue that governments should sort out. Like drug companies, there are plenty of food companies that will and have dumped bad foods to undeveloped countries with little competition and caused problems. They also profited. I wouldn't mind paying tax to make sure that doesn't happen to me, or anyone, for that matter.

Social housing is a mess. I'd like to see a reduction in it. I opted to go private, myself.