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Luke as of ROTJ

Not so much of a "who would win" as a "how close a fight is it"

Legends

VS:

1: TPM Maul
2: TCW/SoD Maul
3: Dooku
4: Vader (Assume that Luke doesn't get any boosts from Vader pissing him off by mentioning Leia.)

All the fights would be pretty close, honestly.

Stops at Dooku.

Stops at 1 honestly.

If we take into account the quote stating how dangerous he is in legends due to his superhuman ability to adapt to different styles of lighsaber combat quickly and exploit them, he has a pretty good shot at all of these guys with Dooku being the most susceptible to strength-based attacks. If he takes down Maul, it'll be to exploiting his mental susceptibility rather than anything physical.

He maybe stops at 3, if not then 4. This is assuming he has a regular state of mind during all the fights

Stops at Dooku

Clears

Originally posted by Azronger
Clears

Yeah clears. He was already superior to ROTJ Vader.

Either loses to them all or wins then all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Either loses to them all or wins then all.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Either loses to them all or wins then all.


so canon vs legends essentially

Originally posted by darthbane77
Luke as of ROTJ

Not so much of a "who would win" as a "how close a fight is it"



Do most agree they're all close fights?

Originally posted by Trocity
Do most agree they're all close fights?
Yes

Wins

Stomps all versions of Maul with ease

exactly Thor, its said right there in the film by Luke

In the film it's also said Yoda and Ben believed Luke can kill Luke, and there only doubt for Luke was Luke himself not wanting to kill Vader. Luke also held back as well, and 2 times Vader took a swing at Luke that if Luke did not stop would have died, so the emotional conflict within Vader isn't as extreme as people make it out to be.

Originally posted by The Merchant
In the film it's also said Yoda and Ben believed Luke can kill Luke, and there only doubt for Luke was Luke himself not wanting to kill Vader.


Did they confirm he could do that right away?

The Canon books I've read (Vader: Backstories and RotJ: Beware the Power of the Dark Side) seem to have Luke edging out Vader in the early-fight and dominating him in the late-fight.

Yeah, not sure how that has anything to do with the question at hand. Vader obviously wasn't trying to lose to Luke.

he wasn't trying to beat him either

Well considering Yoda nor Ben tried to stop Luke unlike in ESB when confronting Vader, that's telling how they feel for Luke. Yoda also pretty much said Lukes final test before becoming a Jedi Knight is to defeat Vader before he died.

Originally posted by The Merchant
In the film it's also said Yoda and Ben believed Luke can kill Luke, and there only doubt for Luke was Luke himself not wanting to kill Vader. Luke also held back as well, and 2 times Vader took a swing at Luke that if Luke did not stop would have died, so the emotional conflict within Vader isn't as extreme as people make it out to be.

Well he did turn back to the light side, so I think it's pretty safe to say it was pretty damn extreme.

Originally posted by relentless1
he wasn't trying to beat him either
Why not? Vader even goes in for the kill when Luke has his lightsaber turned off.

As I see it, it's less a matter of Vader not trying and more a matter of mentality having a huge impact on the performance of Force users. A Jedi of average ability with conviction and focus can overcome a more talented one who lacks those qualities. I attribute Vader's loss more to factors like doubt, shame, distraction, and general imbalance than I do any lack of graveness or effort.

I've always heard that Vader was holding back in his ROTJ fight with Luke, but I don't recall ever seeing a single quote to support that... The only quotes I've ever seen have been about Luke holding back against him, while Vader seems quite willing to kill him if he won't turn.

I think ROTJ Luke is just really good.

Him turning back to the Light was unexpected not even Ben nor Yoda expectde that to happen, Ben even says he's irredeemable. Luke was trying to turn him, but I doubt his words affected Vader especially since 2 times he could have killed Luke if Luke didn't react at the last second. Lukes just that good, it's head canon that Vader lost to Luke via circumstances.

Obi-Wan and Yoda. Two ironclad sources that have never been wrong ever.

Vader was not willing to kill Luke during the fight. He hesitates("..."and only decides he's willing to kill Luke after the fight's essentially over(Luke's flipped to the baclony) and even then Luke calls him out on his bluff so I doubt he was even willing to kill Luke then.

Originally posted by Trocity
I've always heard that Vader was holding back in his ROTJ fight with Luke, but I don't recall ever seeing a single quote to support that... The only quotes I've ever seen have been about Luke holding back against him, while Vader seems quite willing to kill him if he won't turn.

I think ROTJ Luke is just really good.
People keep misinterpreting this quote:
At this point, when the fight's essentially over, Vader hesitates before deciding he's willing to kill Luke. And even then, it's pretty clear Vader's lying to himself regarding this conviction of his because:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MnMA0TzGI

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As I see it, it's less a matter of Vader not trying and more a matter of mentality having a huge impact on the performance of Force users. A Jedi of average ability with conviction and focus can overcome a more talented one who lacks those qualities. I attribute Vader's loss more to factors like doubt, shame, distraction, and general imbalance than I do any lack of graveness or effort.

In canon Luke is legitimately = or slightly superior to Vader.

In Legends Luke was rage amped for the whole fight (to the point where he basically can be compared to Anakin's final state vs Dooku). When he snaps out of it conflicted Vader beats him back rather thoroughly then Luke goes rampant at the end.

Luke had an advantage whenever he was drawing on his anger, and when he didn't it was more or less a draw despite him fighting defensively. He then proceeded to annihilate Vader with a rage amp.

Also, IIRC sources outright tell us Luke's prowess with a blade is a match for Vader's.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Why not? Vader even goes in for the kill when Luke has his lightsaber turned off.

Vader telegraphed that strike like morse code dude; before he strikes he says "you are unwise to lower your defences" in a menacing fashion before he takes a second to actually strike the kid

^ Yeah he knew Luke could and would block those strikes.

Originally posted by Greysentinel365
In canon Luke is legitimately = or slightly superior to Vader.




This has yet to be confirmed.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Yeah he knew Luke could and would block those strikes.

Even then he drove Luke back and put him in a bind quite quickly. Considering this is Luke's only non-amped moment in the fight it says a lot.

Originally posted by Greysentinel365
Even then he drove Luke back and put him in a bind quite quickly. Considering this is Luke's only non-amped moment in the fight it says a lot.



But Vader is still conflicted which Luke says in that same scene.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
But Vader is still conflicted which Luke says in that same scene.

Exactly.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Luke had an advantage whenever he was drawing on his anger, and when he didn't it was more or less a draw despite him fighting defensively. He then proceeded to annihilate Vader with a rage amp.

Based on what was Luke "drawing him" aside from when he drew on his anger? Quotes calling them equal refer to the fight as a whole, not a specific part of the fight when Luke wasn't angry, or even explicitly describe the part of the fight where Luke was amped.

Vader also states he was "tolerating Luke" up until when he's on the balcony.
Originally posted by SunRazer

Also, IIRC sources outright tell us Luke's prowess with a blade is a match for Vader's.
Post?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
This has yet to be confirmed.
In the absence of evidence suggesting the opposite, that's what we should go with.

It's also stated in canon that Vader's prime was Rebels

Originally posted by Rebel95
It's also stated in canon that Vader's prime was Rebels Which refers to his commitment to the darkside. And that "prime" refers to any version of Vader who hasn't been redeemed yet, not Rebels specifically.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Which refers to his commitment to the darkside.

Exactly.



It refers to Vader before he learned he had a son.

Sure.

Also worth noting that the Vader comic has Vader saying in a vision that he grows more powerful with every step he takes away from Kenobi(post-anh).

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Which refers to his commitment to the darkside. And that "prime" refers to any version of Vader who hasn't been redeemed yet, not Rebels specifically.
Yeah that's my point, so if Vader wasn't as committed to the darkside then he wasn't fighting Luke at 100%

Sure, but then neither was Luke.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sure.

Also worth noting that the Vader comic has Vader saying in a vision that he grows more powerful with every step he takes away from Kenobi(post-anh).

What? Assuming we're thinking about the same scene, I'm fairly certain that was right after RotS.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
What? Assuming we're thinking about the same scene, I'm fairly certain that was right after RotS.
I'm talking about a scene from the less recent Vader comics:
http://www.11comic.com/comic/1608110221107s87/pages_9.html

lmfao ^

Yes, I'm sure we should ignore Vader stating he's grown more powerful as it contradicts...what exactly?

StarWars.com establishing he'll never be as powerful as Anakin was?

Quote? Because all it says is that he had the potential to be "one of the most powerful Jedi of all time," or something to that effect. No mention of Anakin's baseline being stunted, and there are various sources that already say Anakin was already the most powerful Jedi of all time. Etc.

Originally posted by MythLord
StarWars.com establishing he'll never be as powerful as Anakin was? The scan I linked says nothing about how he compares to Anakin, it only implies he's stronger than his ANH self.

It's in Sheev's Biography Gallery, I think.

It's not.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

It's under panel 14. It says that Sidious knows Vader would be weaker than he was before.

Originally posted by MythLord
StarWars.com establishing he'll never be as powerful as Anakin was?

This. Where is your source for this. If it's what you just linked, it doesn't say that.

mmm The quote apparently changed since I last saw it, or the original was removed, or I misremembered. The gist stays the same, Vader is weaker than Anakin.

No, Vader literally after being lit on fire and operated on is weaker than Anakin. Not some permanent stunt. You've broken no ground.

On the Star Wars Database link provided by Mythlord, the picture with Sidious looking at Vader on the table states:
"Sidious knew that Vader's broken body would make him weaker than before, but tested his apprentice's connection to the dark side by telling him that he had caused Padme's death. The intensity of Vader's anguish and self-hatred made it clear that he still possessed great power."

So basically saying Sidious was sure Vader would be weaker, he tested Vader's connection to the Dark Side, and went "Well, I was wrong."

With that said, Luke was definitely conflicted while fighting Vader, as was made clear throughout the entirety of Return of the Jedi. He constantly stated that he didn't want to fight Vader. Repeatedly. Like a broken record.

When he told Ben that he couldn't kill his own father, Ben told him "then the Emperor has already won," implying that Ben intended for Luke to kill Vader. Yoda supposedly intended the same thing. Ben and Yoda both tried their hardest to stop Luke from confronting Vader in ESB, and yet in RotJ, they insist that he has to confront Vader, that the only thing left for Luke to do was confront Vader. Yoda and Vader both imply that Luke has grown between ESB and RotJ, with both of them commenting on Luke's training being essentially complete, and with both Vader and Sidious commenting on how powerful Luke has become.

Everything in RotJ points to Luke having surpassed Vader. Yoda and Ben both telling Luke to confront Vader, after they had previously warned him that he was not ready in ESB. Sidious and Vader commenting on how powerful Luke is, with Vader specifically saying "Indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen," with the Emperor being the character who foresaw Luke being powerful enough to destroy both himself and Vader. Luke holding the upper hand for the entirety of the fight when he's actually trying (He's only put on the defensive after he willingly surrendered and claimed he wouldn't fight any more). Sidious insisting that Luke kill Vader, his most powerful asset at the time, which he would have no reason to do unless Luke had truly surpassed Vader. Two canon sources, Return of the Jedi: Beware the Power of the Dark Side Backstories: Star Wars: Darth Vader - Sith Lord. And the utter lack of canon evidence that Vader was more powerful than Luke.

Even if we look to Legends, Shadows of the Empire has Vader speculating that Luke is already as powerful as Anakin had been in Empire Strikes Back. The Return of the Jedi novelization implies that Luke has surpassed his father, and repeatedly tells us that Sidious was afraid of how powerful Luke was. When Luke tells Vader that Vader will be forced to kill him when the met on Endor, the novelization has Vader thinking "This was not his wish, but the boy was strong--if it came at last to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could not afford to hold back, as he once had." So clearly the novel has Vader seeing Luke as, at the very least, a near-equal. Someone he can't defeat without going all-out. During the actual duel, we get this line from Vader's thoughts, "For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City--not to mention the boy's timing, which had been honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge." On top of that, we have the original Marvel adaptation stating that Luke had grown in the interim between ESB and RotJ, and that if there was any advantage to be had in their duel, it was on Luke's side.

The biggest piece of evidence Legends provides for RotJ Luke being less powerful than Vader was Luke's speculation in The Courtship of Princess Leia. And at the time, Luke had a brain hemorrhage and was not thinking coherently, and was also an unreliable narrator throughout that book (Believing Gethzerion was only a Vader-level foe, when Palpatine was so afraid of her that he invested a great deal of resources to ensure she could never leave Dathomir, rather than just sending Vader to kill her like he sent Grievous to kill Talzin).

Originally posted by Underachiever59
"Sidious knew that Vader's broken body would make him weaker than before, but tested his apprentice's connection to the dark side by telling him that he had caused Padme's death. The intensity of Vader's anguish and self-hatred made it clear that he still possessed great power."

So basically saying Sidious was sure Vader would be weaker, he tested Vader's connection to the Dark Side, and went "Well, I was wrong."

Uh, no, that's not what it said at all.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, no, that's not what it said at all.

The quote basically says Palpatine 'knew' Vader would be weaker now that he lost his limbs. He had Vader rebuilt, but was expecting something weak. Instead, when he tested Vader, he found that Vader "still possessed great power." In other words, he expected garbage, and instead found that his apprentice was still powerful. Coupled with other canon sources like the 2015 Darth Vader comic, 2017 Darth Vader comic, and Lords of the Sith, canon provides tons of examples of Vader being stronger than Anakin, not weaker.

Darth Vader 2015: Sidious tells Vader "You are everything I could have hoped for" in the final chapter. Vader also sees himself as more powerful than Anakin in one of the last chapters of the series.

Darth Vader 2017: Vader briefly man-handled Sidious with the Force, and is allowed to do all the work he wants on his suit, meaning canon Vader doesn't have the same limitations in the suit that Legends Vader had (the suit being intentionally ill-fitting, the limbs not responding properly, ect.)

Lords of the Sith: On literally the first page of chapter one, "His injuries had deformed his body, left it broken, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthened his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight." Page two says: "When man and machine were one, he no longer felt the absence of his legs or arms, the pain of his flesh, but the hate remained, and the rage still burned. Those, he never relinquished, and he never felt more connected to the Force than when his fury burned." "The armor separated him from the galaxy, from everyone, made him singular, freed him from the needs of the flesh, the concerns of the body that once had plagued him, and allowed him to focus solely on his relationship to the Force."

Precisely, he knew. Not thought or believed; knew. The fact that Vader still possessed great power doesn't change the fact that he was weaker without his limbs.

Why is current Canon even being mentioned when the OP specifically states Legends?

Only Luke is specifically Legends, unless Son of Dathomir is a Legends product. Hint: it isn't.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Precisely, he knew. Not thought or believed; knew. The fact that Vader still possessed great power doesn't change the fact that he was weaker without his limbs.
That's also not what the quote says. And given that Sidious continuously tries to replace Vader, and is continuously proven wrong, Palpatine obviously doesn't know shit.

Actually, it's exactly what the quote says:

"Sidious knew that Vader's broken body would make him weaker than before,"

And the fact that it also says that Vader still possessed great power, again, doesn't imply that Palpatine was mistaken.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's also not what the quote says.
lmfao what?

Which could mean a variety of things, least of which is apparently power in the Force. Either way, what Sidious "knows" does not make it a fact, regardless of how logical you feel that should be.

No, the fact that Palpatine thinks he has a numerous ways of replacing Vader and constantly fails means that Palpatine does not know exactly how powerful Vader is relatively. Which is the only thing relevant to this thread. The fact that he has to test Vader at all shows this.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'm talking about a scene from the less recent Vader comics:
http://www.11comic.com/comic/1608110221107s87/pages_9.html
Can we discuss this which specifically compares post ANH Vader to his ANH self?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Which could mean a variety of things, least of which is apparently power in the Force. Either way, what Sidious "knows" does not make it a fact, regardless of how logical you feel that should be.

Palpatine does not know exactly how powerful Vader is relatively. Which is the only thing relevant to this thread.

Regardless of its relevance to thread, it is relevant to the conversation at hand. I'm referring to what Underachiever said specifically, that it ending with the phrase "Vader still possessed great power" contradicts Palpatine's hypothesis that he would be weaker, but that's not how english works.

For example, take this sentence:

I knew I had to go to the store, but I still had two packages of crackers left.

The fact that I still had crackers doesn't contradict the notion that I still have to go to the store. If I want it to, I would word it as follows:

I thought I had to go to the store, but I still had two packages of crackers left.

The same principle applies to the quote. Wording is key.

The conversation at hand is retarded. And unfortunately for you, English works in a variety of ways you don't exactly get to dictate. Regardless, the topic at hand began when someone argued Vader would never be as powerful as Anakin, which is not said once. You can imply that, argue for it even, but it's never stated definitely, which was the claim.


In the end, Sidious does not "know" a quantitative value of how powerful Vader may or may not be, just like you don't ever "know" that you need to go to the store definitely. Because someone might just bring groceries over to you. Therein lies the weakness of your argument. Making a logical assessment does not make you correct, no matter how likely. Point blank and full stop.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Regardless, the topic at hand began when someone argued Vader would never be as powerful as Anakin, which is not said once. You can imply that, argue for it even, but it's never stated definitely, which was the claim.

It wasn't mine.



The weakness of your argument is that you don't even understand what mine is. facepalm

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Only Luke is specifically Legends, unless Son of Dathomir is a Legends product. Hint: it isn't.

That's also not what the quote says. And given that Sidious continuously tries to replace Vader, and is continuously proven wrong, Palpatine obviously doesn't know shit.

No he isn't specifically specified as Legends. But I mean fair enough, though this whole thread is screwed over then.

"stronger" is often used in reference to potential rather than power.

Hence Kenobi says of TCW Anakin:
"he's stronger than any jedi"

Originally posted by MythLord
http://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-sidious-biography-gallery

It's under panel 14. It says that Sidious knows Vader would be weaker than he was before.


Ah thanks. Not sure how I missed that.

Losing a hand would make someone worse at sword fighting. But with enough practice and dedication it could be possible to reach, maybe even surpass, the level the person was at before.

Maybe not the best example but you get the idea.

Canon seems to be going with no potential loss from mutilation.

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/833437960934662145

Originally posted by Greysentinel365
Canon seems to be going with no potential loss from mutilation.

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/833437960934662145

Like most other questions asked, he didn't really seem to answer it as another comment he makes, he's not declaring clear statements either.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It wasn't mine.

I don't care. You can sway the conversation your own way when this one is over.

Or maybe you're just wrong. That's a possibility too. Fact is, your argument isn't that hard to understand. I just don't agree with it regardless of you trying to explain the nuance of the English language with everyone.

Woah, edgy.

I agree, it shouldn't be hard to understand at all, but with you bringing up so many irrelevant points, it's difficult for me to believe we're actually on the same page. Whether or not Palpatine was correct in his assumption doesn't concern me; my claim was that the quote doesn't imply that he was incorrect. If it were worded differently it might have, but it wasn't.

^ Also a fair assessment.

Disney Vader does have some very beastly feats.

I’d say Peak ROTS Anakin is definitely above him, but Vader is just way more consistent.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I agree, it shouldn't be hard to understand at all, but with you bringing up so many irrelevant points,

Nah.

Nah.

Yes, I understand. But whatever the quote may have implied, which if you read what I said it is indeed a logical conclusion, the quote is ultimately wrong because Vader is able to overcome his weaknesses there and surpass Anakin. Whereas the argument was, "Vader either is weaker than Anakin or was never able to match his potential," which the quote does not claim, nor is the quote shown to be at least permanently true. I'm sure just after Mustafar, Vader was weaker than Anakin. We have many quotes after this that state Vader grew in power as well, which is not irrelevant at all, because that was the conversation at hand.

Yeah, I'm done. You win, congrats.

1.) Luke
2.) Definatley Luke
3.) Dooku, he such an underrated swordsman. Tbh he's one of the best.
4.) Probably Luke (unless it was RotS Vader in which case Luke has no chance)

Felony thinks Luke would lose to all the council members excellent

Filoni is also stupid.

He's not stupid. He's just a first class d***

I like how Filoni thinking that Luke being < High Council also must mean he thinks all of them must be capable of outright defeating Vader. Totally nothing wrong with that. Also Maul < Ben < Vader < High Council.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I like how Filoni thinking that Luke being < High Council also must mean he thinks all of them must be capable of outright defeating Vader. Totally nothing wrong with that. Also Maul < Ben < Vader < High Council.


No he said Luke was never gonna take out Vader with a Saber.

He also said Kanan is far better trained than Luke could ever be.

Did he actually watch Star Wars?

Wtf

Originally posted by AncientPower
Did he actually watch Star Wars?


Don't know. No interviewer has ever challenged him on the issue.

But I take it he thinks Vader was completely holding back against Luke and could have beat him anytime.

For such a huge Star Wars fan at a young age, he clearly never read the books or scripts for ROTJ.

I thought he was more of a Prequelist until he shat all over Darth Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Thor


He also said Kanan is far better trained than Luke could ever be.

****ing muppet

His ruining of Maul in Rebels and Grievous in TCW should never be forgiven