Wonder Woman Vs Flash

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pretty sure the arrows were magic.

I'm also almost certain Nu52 Wonder Woman isn't the one being featured but the most current edition. But I wouldn't give the current edition odds over Spider-Man, let alone put her in the class of the Wonder Woman we had a decade ago.

Neither is Injustice WW, but those scans are still featured in this thread....Like my scan for DCuO!

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/55727/1617686-1617590_jhuib_super.jpg

Arrows were magical, yes - did it make them superfast?

Because at the moment, the only clear-cut comparison we have between WW and Flash, where both are in their right minds etc - is Flash running backwards with a cheeky smile, and outpacing her.

Oh wait, you had this to say:

confused

Well, colour me confused

too, because DS is:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/32119/695838-ds24hp.jpg

Slade is explicitly faster than her. She later wins the battle, of course, but he fight pretty evenly with her throughout the fight.

DarkSaint85

Surtur

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/32119/695838-ds24hp.jpg

Slade is explicitly faster than her. She later wins the battle, of course, but he fight pretty evenly with her throughout the fight.

I don't know why Deathstroke is punching a skinny John Belushi in drag and I don't care. I approve thumb up

DarkSaint85

Btw, perhaps bluewaterrider was unaware, but the invisible jet no longer responds to mental commands - because it's dead.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pvp6264DvY4/VnfwtEyFYWI/AAAAAAAAHGM/xW7gE0eEVZ8/s1600-Ic42/RCO018.jpg

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

I didn't 'unknowingly' allude to it. I know full well that the Jet isn't standard equipment, and she won't have it here.

Yeah, you did. I wasn't referring to the jet but to you not knowing the shooting girl was Devastation, a meta human with as much, if not more, speed, strength, and skill as Diana herself.

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36525271_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36525272_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36525273_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yeah, you did. I wasn't referring to the jet but to you not knowing the shooting girl was Devastation, a meta human with as much, if not more, speed, strength, and skill as Diana herself.

thumb up

So Deathstroke level, then.

Bonus points if you spot how punches from DS draw blood from WW.

abhilegend

https://s1.postimg.org/9qh1px2i27/RCO016.jpg

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Btw, perhaps bluewaterrider was unaware, but the invisible jet no longer responds to mental commands - because it's dead.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pvp6264DvY4/VnfwtEyFYWI/AAAAAAAAHGM/xW7gE0eEVZ8/s1600-Ic42/RCO018.jpg

Bluewaterrider was very much unaware the jet had died.
And Bluewaterrider is now thinking staff deadlines must have been hell at DC if that's the level of writing that got past the editors.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb up

So Deathstroke level, then.

Bonus points if you spot how punches from DS draw blood from WW.

I'm too busy trying to figure out why Flash doesn't seem fast enough to avoid any pointed object in Deathstroke's possession.

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36525315_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

Probably the same reason WW can't either:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/29361/628322-sladeflash3ea.jpg

Lemme guess...magic as well?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Bluewaterrider was very much unaware the jet had died.
And Bluewaterrider is now thinking staff deadlines must have been hell at DC if that's the level of writing that got past the editors.

Bad writing? In comics? Say it ain't so!!!

bluewaterrider

Your pictures not showing, E.

All it displays is some "Tripod" apology message for the error.

Might be worthwhile to point out that Riv's opening post is Diana at day-dreaming speed. She moves a lot faster than that when actual need arises.

The following is featured in the Brave and the Bold, roundabout 2007, I think, in the same B & B series that featured Mark Waid writing Supergirl, The Book of Destiny, and Megisthus:

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36525321_image.jpg

bluewaterrider

While I'm looking at them, might as well include these:

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36525349_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36525350_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your pictures not showing, E.

All it displays is some "Tripod" apology message for the error.

Might be worthwhile to point out that Riv's opening post is Diana at day-dreaming speed. She moves a lot faster than that when actual need arises.

The following is featured in the Brave and the Bold, roundabout 2007, I think, in the same B & B series that featured Mark Waid writing Supergirl, The Book of Destiny, and Megisthus:

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36525321_image.jpg

I've tried fixing it. It should hopefully appear in all its glory now.

The Brave and the Bold scan still doesn't show much, especially as we know Flash has MUCH better evacuation feats:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/13/d5/5e/13d55ed9eec92b706c925c730c58f8cf.jpg

And then of course, there is the speedsteal.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
While I'm looking at them, might as well include these:

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36525349_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36525350_image.jpg

Was waiting for this. A possessed, mind-controlled Flash. Nah. As you can clearly read from my post, I specifically mentioned that Flash had to be in his right mind.....

After all, it specifically says that WW doesn't have to be fast - just predict where STARRO was going to attack.

So yeah, she didn't use speed.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

As you can clearly read from my post, I specifically mentioned that Flash had to be in his right mind.....

Didn't see you write that anywhere in your post, but I agree -- if Flash isn't in his right mind, he might do something stupid ...

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36525353_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36525354_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36525355_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

So now I'm confused

You've gone from using PIS showings....to using Injustice WW....to using equipment that no longer works the way you think it does, or that she carries around as standard, or is legal on forums....to using mind controlled Flash.....to now using Supergirl, and relocating the fight to the Moon?

OK.

Speedsteal.

Oh, and since you don't seem to give my posts the attention they richly deserve sad

:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Because at the moment, the only clear-cut comparison we have between WW and Flash, where both are in their right minds etc - is Flash running backwards with a cheeky smile, and outpacing her.

abhilegend

And he has stolen her speed.

http://postimg.org/image/1n9zmdtla3/

riv6672

Originally posted by spetznaz
This. Nothing more to add.
I guess there was more to add!

bluewaterrider

Indeed there was more to add.

This thread raises some interesting issues, though.

In no particular order:

When does a person's habitual action go from PIS, or even CIS, to a defining feature, habit, or trait of that character?

How much should be corrected for when a writer elevates a character to effective demigodhood?

For the last, I'm thinking of the following, where neither Flash NOR Wonder Woman fare all that well against the Master of Overachievement we know as Bruce:

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546395_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546396_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546397_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546398_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546399_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546400_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546401_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546402_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

It's pretty standard for Bats...same as with Deathstroke (as seen in this thread) and Cap.

IOW, I wouldn't rely too much on showings involving these characters for their opponents,but I would rely on the showings for them.

So in a Batman thread,I'd use his showings against WW, or Superman.

But in a WW thread, I'd hesitate to use them in a serious manner against WW. Of course,for humour I might,but it won't be serious.

Same with DS. I wouldn't use his showings against WW to say how weak WW was - unless of course, he was being used as a yardstick for his opponents.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's pretty standard for Bats...same as with Deathstroke (as seen in this thread) and Cap.

IOW, I wouldn't rely too much on showings involving these characters for their opponents,but I would rely on the showings for them.

So in a Batman thread,I'd use his showings against WW, or Superman.

But in a WW thread, I'd hesitate to use them in a serious manner against WW. Of course,for humour I might,but it won't be serious.

Same with DS. I wouldn't use his showings against WW to say how weak WW was - unless of course, he was being used as a yardstick for his opponents.

Those two are definitely in classes of their own. If anything, Batman was even more haxx in the following JLA submission than he was in the previous one, taken out of Batman Confidential #53:

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546486_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546487_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546488_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546489_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546490_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546491_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546492_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546493_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

There's an even MORE haxx showing, lol, in DCnU. Where he outspeeds HV, and takes a beating from WW when she's pissed off. And he's not wearing armour.

bluewaterrider

It's worth noting MOST of Wondy's teammates were holding back to some degree in that last JLA submission.

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546538_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546539_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546540_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546541_image.jpg

There's a lot of good feats and information in this thread. I might try to marry these showings with reference information in the relatively near future.

DarkSaint85

WW wasn't holding back in her showing with Bats. She was out to kill,in the DCnU showing.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
WW wasn't holding back in her showing with Bats. She was out to kill,in the DCnU showing.

Tsk.
MY turn to shake my head...

How long have you read comics?

Don't you know by now that the only thing that matters is whether BATMAN was holding back or not?

Batkick versus Superman (Dark Knight Returns)

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36546546_image.jpg

Batkick versus motorcycle (unknown)
https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36546547_image.jpg

Batkick versus Despero
https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36546548_image.jpg

Batkick versus Hulk
https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36546561_image.jpg

Batkick versus Wonder Woman
https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36546549_image.jpg

Batkick versus Darkseid
https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36546550_image.jpg

Batkick versus ... Spectre?
https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36546551_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

Some of those have context...the Spectre showing,for example, is not always shown in full.

In the next panel,Spectre asks Batman ifit made him feel better. He did it deliberately so that Batman could feel good.

bluewaterrider

mmm
Sounds like Spectre was scared of what would happen if Batman stayed mad at him too long ...

Spectre DOES follow the will The Presence after all ...

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36546588_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/103530/2215153-4.png

riv6672

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Indeed there was more to add.

This thread raises some interesting issues, though.

In no particular order:

When does a person's habitual action go from PIS, or even CIS, to a defining feature, habit, or trait of that character?

How much should be corrected for when a writer elevates a character to effective demigodhood?

For the last, I'm thinking of the following, where neither Flash NOR Wonder Woman fare all that well against the Master of Overachievement we know as Bruce:

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546395_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546396_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546397_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546398_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546399_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546400_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546401_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36546402_image.jpg
Thanks for the Bump and the scans! thumb up

riv6672

^^^why do the gay ass socks always find their way into my threads?

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by riv6672
Thanks for the Bump and the scans! thumb up

No problem.

As alluded to before, this topic raises a lot of issues germane to comic debate, items that deserve to be pointed out, but seldom if ever have been.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Too bad I didn't remember that the invisible jet was actually a thing during Wonder Woman's post-Crisis run during the era of Devastation, which you unknowingly alluded to just now. Invisible AND it responds to mental commands?

As much as post-Crisis Flash had a habit of running into things?

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36525136_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36525137_image.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman does not get the Batmobile during forum fights.

WW wouldn't get the Invisible Jet in THIS.

I mean, we can count up the number of times the Batmobile is used in HIS appearances, vs the number of times the Jet appears in hers....

I should and will clarify: the above was me lamenting not remembering about the invisible jet post-crisis Wonder Woman had in time for the Tournament of Power Id recently held.

That's why I wrote "too bad I didn't remember" instead of "I remember now".
THIS thread is current and has no real time limit. Anything I recall can be posted once I recall and retrieve it. Id's tournament, however, though the JUDGING is still ongoing as I type this, had a deadline for participant submissions, which passed many weeks ago.

Why would it have been good to remember, if the jet was not part of Wondy's standard equipment?

Because in the stips for his tournament, linked here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t646629.html

... Id specified:

----------
Equipment: Standard equipment. Characters that can store and recall equipment in pocket dimension are allowed to recall them, and are treated as standard equipment. Example Kang the Conqueror.
----------

And Wondy has several times throughout her post-1985 history demonstrated having stuff that was extra-dimensional, most recently in her DCnU incarnation where she could literally pull weapons from the gauntlets on her wrists.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Wondy has several times throughout her post-1985 history demonstrated having stuff that was extra-dimensional, most recently in her DCnU incarnation where she could literally pull weapons from the gauntlets on her wrists.

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552744_image.jpg

Above is Wonder Woman #32 volume 4 if memory serves.

The following is from Wonder Woman #3 volume 2, roughly 30 years ago.

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552745_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552746_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552747_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552748_image.jpg

riv6672

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No problem.

As alluded to before, this topic raises a lot of issues germane to comic debate, items that deserve to be pointed out, but seldom if ever have been.
That was totally my intention... embarrasment

bluewaterrider

Well, let's examine some of these things.

For starters, there's reputation, and I suppose even forum reputation versus comic book reputation.

These are obviously 2 different things.

By forum reputation, as you can see even on page 1 of this thread, Flash is a clear winner.

By comic book reputation ...?

JLA Terror Incognito, the "Return of the White Martians" arc, gives one answer:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552803_image.jpg

Flash is lumped into the same category as the other "Red One" i.e. Plastic Man, not a terribly credible threat:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552803_image.jpg

bluewaterrider

Now, to be fair, different writers are going to be of different opinions.
Nor is the opinion of a villain necessarily gospel.

In point of fact, in the previous arc, the JLA member with the best fight record against the White Martians was Batman, who took on 3 or 4 of the Martians, more or less at once, and was teased about age taking away some of his edge by Wally or Kyle. Part of that will be shown in some later scans if Turbo Image holds out for me today and time permits.

For that matter, the White Martians will eventually be slain by Fernus in the next arc, a Martian with even more power than any of them, so much so that the entire League will be hard pressed to match Fernus, who is actually an altered form of J'onn Jonnz himself. And there the tide of battle will be turned by none other than "red" Plastic Man, whose unique physiology makes him immune to Martian telepathic attack and mind control. Then, too, this 2nd Martian arc features a marked contradiction from the previous series. There the Martians were dependent on air. Here, far from needing oxygen, the Martian plan is to remove oxygen from the Earth, suffocating its inhabitants and making them master of our solar system. How do you deal with such contradictions? At the least, they should be addressed.

DarkSaint85

And yet, he IMPd a White Martian with one blow.....

Plastic Man was Batman's ace in the hole, capable of stalemating Fernus.

The same Fernus who single handedly slaughtered the entire White Martian race.

So Martian threat sensing isn't exactly all that. After all, it was their 'threat sensing' which enabled Batman to take four out on his lonesome.

Edit: I should just let you debate against yourself lol as I see your subsequent post addressed it.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And yet, he IMPd a White Martian with one blow.....

Plastic Man was Batman's ace in the hole, capable of stalemating Fernus.

The same Fernus who single handedly slaughtered the entire White Martian race.

So Martian threat sensing isn't exactly all that. After all, it was their 'threat sensing' which enabled Batman to take four out on his lonesome.

Edit: I should just let you debate against yourself lol as I see your subsequent post addressed it.

More than that, I was JUST about to SHOW that near-infinite mass punch (i.m.p.) you mention above as it is a personal favorite of mine:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36552828_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36552829_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36552830_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36552831_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36552832_image.jpg

Source: JLA #3
Arc: New World Order
Circa: 1997(?)

If you want to present something I won't be showing, put some speed-steal scans up here. With the exception of Justice League of America #23, Volume 2, I won't be able to present those, unless I accidentally stumble across some, for the simple fact that I don't know where more are to be found.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's the speedsteal, plus his, well, speed advantage over her.

It's a nonlethal option which he can and has used in the past, which will stand him in good stead. He wouldn't want to go fisticuffs with Diana - he knows her too well.

I'd be interested in knowing about how many times Flash has done so in the past. If it's not at least a couple, it's somewhat akin to what some poster argued in the following thread about Juggernaut using shrinking spells on people ...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t602252.html

bluewaterrider

Justice League of America #23 volume 2.

Amazo versus JLA.

One of the very few instances I know of where Flash does actually use speed stealing on an opponent. I note here that it's only partial, though. By itself, it does NOT neutralize the threat Amazo presents. It doesn't seem to work for very long, either, and the damage inflicted on Flash himself in the exchange apparently causes Flash to pass out. To be fair, though, we ARE talking about Amazo -- few writers would allow anything less than a team or deus ex machina solution to work on a villain of this caliber early on -- and the super speed he still seems to possess could easily have been gleaned from Superman, Wonder Woman, or both.

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552869_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552870_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552871_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552872_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552873_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552874_image.jpg

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36552875_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

Speedsteals:

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4674c68b790f718f72973f2d743eb54c

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/145371/2950485-speedstealdistance.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111121224/3186297-9039618813-28715.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/2/27503/525729-jlacyb_40.jpg

https://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114841/5669469-speed+steal.jpg

(DCnU Wally is the same as pre-52)

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111139352/5226681-ww+speed+steal.jpg

https://pm1.narvii.com/6499/36b61e5f8c84dfdcfeea37766cec5d44a1672f62_hq.jpg

Speedstealing the entire earth:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/145371/3014826-speed_steal_earth.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/14/145371/3014870-speedstealgirdir.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/145371/3827287-stealsbulletspeed.jpg

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111139352/5347983-speed+steal+1.jpg

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11131/111310697/5765619-5968238913-RCO01.jpg

He has also done it with everyone on Earth:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/120267/5649491-3702574220-bACHP.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/120267/5649497-9915625792-TuIC9.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/120267/5649498-6463590295-KSQsy.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/120267/5649504-1270609203-5IXjV.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/120267/5649505-7266383274-eoA0i.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/120267/5649506-9442287900-6Yisc.jpg

Some of them were failed attempts (like with Zoom, due to the nature of his powers). But it was to show how he attempts to use it.

Certainly more often than Juggy 'Sorcerer Supreme' Marko.

Edit: Plus Amazo, and plus with WW as abhi already posted.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So now I'm confused

You've gone from using PIS showings....to now using Supergirl, and relocating the fight to the Moon?

The point of the Supergirl ep (Supergirl #4) was to show that Flash can and often does get distracted or ignore features of his environment when fighting his opponents. It's also worth pointing out Wonder Woman is a strategist who often DOES consider such things and can very quickly take a battle to a place that gives her an advantage against tough opponents. In this example, for instance, JLA #4, Diana takes on Primaid, a White Martian who stunned and cratered Superman in their first encounter, and then gained the upper hand against J'onn here:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36552877_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36552878_image.jpg

After an interlude where Zum, the White Martian I.m.p.'d by Flash takes on Aquaman and gets schooled, we see Diana make (somewhat) quick work of her foe:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36552879_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36552880_image.jpg

This is instructive for another reason, mentioned before. Note that this move would not (hopefully under a DIFFERENT writer, travesty if the same) work on Primaid at the time of Terror Incognita, JLA #58.

Primaid by then had been RETCONNED into requiring no air to breathe.
Presumably, by that time, so had Diana.

DarkSaint85

Oh, if we are posting scans where the combatants are master strategists:

Wally out-thinks a supercomputer the size of a sun - faith placed in him by no less than Batman, who tells him to be ready to out-think the ultimate computer:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111130781/4148134-2077451475-29623.jpg

Using up a WHOLE nanosecond to run every single simulation:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130781/3824335-4413004117-36355.jpg

Ran another billion:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111130781/4148139-1201447708-29623.jpg

Strategising in nanoseconds:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/103530/2836904-flash_v2_229_page_15.jpg

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, if we are posting scans where the combatants are master strategists:

Wally out-thinks a supercomputer the size of a sun - faith placed in him by no less than Batman, who tells him to be ready to out-think the ultimate computer:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111130781/4148134-2077451475-29623.jpg

sad

Ah, man ... BATMAN has faith in Wally's strategizing?

I may have to concede if THAT's the case ...

DarkSaint85

And the previous showing of Wally absorbing WW's KE (not too much, mind; having your ally frozen in battle is frowned upon):
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hmXxDIeqyOQ/VzJBCHZ4YHI/AAAAAAAAaIQ/KVW4JWKs76cY3xeUuZ_59-Azl6iZBjkuwCLcB/s1600/jla-jsa-066.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
sad

Ah, man ... BATMAN has faith in Wally's strategizing?

I may have to concede if THAT's the case ...

I note WW was also right there, but wasn't called upon.....

Did you see my speedsteal scans? More than a 'couple' of instances, won't you say?

Edit: so, in summary so far:

Wally has used speedsteal, on more than one occasion.

WW has no defence against it.

Whilst WW can be a shrewd tactician, so can Wally.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Did you see my speedsteal scans?
More than a 'couple' of instances, won't you say?

It's enough to make speed-stealing a practical option.

Now the only questions are to what degree speed stealing would work on someone like Diana if Flash decided to try that, and IF Speed-stealing would actually work on her to begin with.

It didn't work on Zoom, was only partially effective on Amazo, would have worked on Superman yet was something Flash felt he dare not try, but worked on Inertia apparently to the point Flash could effectively stop him for all time.

The question in my mind is what DC has decided for Diana who is empowered by gods who were empowered by the Godwave. Because it was apparently retconned or revealed that the Speedforce is a secondary force CREATED by the Godwave. And Diana is both beneficiary of Godwave AND has proven able to access that force.

It's an interesting question.

carver9

Speed steal is Flash only hope and if they are fighting in character, he isn't using it. Diana wins 8/9 - 10.

DarkSaint85

In character he's not harming his friend. Nor is he stupid enough to let her tag him in hth combat.

Unless you think he spams IMPs or kicks her like he did against Flashpoint WW?

He knows her. He knows her skills. Why would he try and fight mano a mano with her??

bluewaterrider

Godwave and Speedforce questions will take some research.

Absent them, i.m.p.'s become the next area of concern.

Practical questions are:

1. Can Wally feasibly be expected to land more than one near-infinite mass punch IF he gets off one to begin with?

I'm doubting that he can, for the simple reason that the force of the blow, at least modeled on the one we actually saw, results in an instant mini-BFR, knocking the opponent far away at an unpredictable angle.

2. Can Flash get one of these off before Wondy takes to the air or thunderclaps?

3. Can Wally go through an attack like a thunderclap without getting knocked out?

4. Can Wondy endure one or more of these?

5. Would going for I.m.p.s backfire on Flash?

For those thinking Wondy could not possibly remain conscious for even one punch of imp-magnitude, it's worth pointing out that she famously took a punch that literally launched her from somewhere near the SUN, over 30 MILLION miles away, all the way back to Earth, in a fight that, of necessity, took place at speeds near or in excess of light speed. And ultimately came out the winner of that fight.

Wonder Woman #219, Volume 2.
The "Sacrifice" fight against Superman :

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552889_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552890_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552891_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552892_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552893_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552894_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552895_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552896_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552897_image.jpg https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36552898_image.jpg

bluewaterrider

Worth pointing out something I rarely see, and that is that besides being durable enough to take some serious knockout force, Wondy also has the ability to nearly instantly heal damage to her body. I'm not sure how often she does this, though I'd wager it has happened at least as many times as i.m.p., but it is worth knowing she DOES have this ability ...

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36552924_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36552925_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36552926_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36552927_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman #6(?), Volume 2
Arc: Wonder Woman versus Decay (precedes Ares fight)

carver9

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In character he's not harming his friend. Nor is he stupid enough to let her tag him in hth combat.

Unless you think he spams IMPs or kicks her like he did against Flashpoint WW?

He knows her. He knows her skills. Why would he try and fight mano a mano with her??

I just don't see these fights like this on KMC. When we make matches, I thought they fight in character but at the same time, they are trying to take each other out. Not using the friend factor as a set back. If that was the case, why would they even fight in the first place if we are playing the friend card. They could just stand there and end this in a stalemate.

I just think Diana is fast enough to tag him. Amazo was said to be faster than Superman and Diana was still able to blitz him and hang with him far better than any JLA.

He does know her but do you remember this scene???

https://i.imgur.com/4uZO9VL.jpg

Amazon was said to have the speed of Flash (along with other speedsters) and Diana was able to fully tie him up before he could perceive it. Flash isn't winning this.

riv6672

Yeah, no shit.
Its why i stay away from 'blood lust' battles. In character is more interesting.
Basically, and this is just my opinion, you can tell how hard it is for a character to win, the more caveats are brought up in the debate that might possibly favor them.
Speed blitz is pretty classic, even though, in character, most heroes/villains don't fight like the Flash.
Common knowledge, thats a good one when posters are reaching.
Characters brain raping, get off my lawning, sleep pellets take out Galactus, turning opponents to salt...basically one shotting their opponents, when again, in character? They dont do that.
Now i guess we have the friend card? Nice.

Then we get 'characters fight to the best of their abilities' 'but they're still in character' circular arguments, which is when i lose interest/flip the channel.

Sometimes it takes more guts to just say 'Yeah, the character i like better loses this fight. Good one'.
Cuz it takes guts to post on an MB dammit.

bluewaterrider

Don't know about anybody else, I'm curious what researching the actual comic record suggests AND how other people think and what criteria they're using, AND because the topic itself is an intriguing one.

It's JUST science-y enough to warrant semi-serious consideration from students of physics, for instance:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IpTwsJaLvA4

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It didn't work on Zoom, was only partially effective on Amazo, would have worked on Superman yet was something Flash felt he dare not try, but worked on Inertia apparently to the point Flash could effectively stop him for all time.

It also worked on Superman Blue/Max MErcury et al, WW/Superman et al, Girder, JAy Garrick etc. There were a ton of scans I posted.

Speed Force was retconned. It's not a result of the Godwave anymore. Barry Allen created it.

https://s5.postimg.org/7mie7jz2v/image.jpg

Plus, Wally has taken speed from WW before (as seen in my speedsteal scans).

WW has never been shown to access the speed force under her own power. She was amped the only time she accessed it.

Originally posted by carver9
I just don't see these fights like this on KMC. When we make matches, I thought they fight in character but at the same time, they are trying to take each other out. Not using the friend factor as a set back. If that was the case, why would they even fight in the first place if we are playing the friend card. They could just stand there and end this in a stalemate.

Then if Wally sees her as an enemy he needs to take out, then...what's the problem here, lol.

And Batman is shown to be taking some tool from his belt and cutting his legs off before he could kick Batman away. So based on that scan, Batman is faster than Flash?

Because let's ignore Amazo for a moment. ABC logic never works. You and I both know this.

In a DIRECT comparison between the two:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/2267407-dianna_race_flash.jpg

He leaves her in his wake, whilst running backwards.

And am sure you've seen this scan. Wally outreacts a beam of light, and saves WW, who couldn't even react:
https://s5.postimg.org/71yrr4ggn/image.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111130781/3484483-3440873444-34732.jpg

Not to mention, Flashpoint WW.

You can use A>B>C logic all day. That always ends with Batman being the strongest/fastest/cleverest member of the JLA lol. But in DIRECT comparison, Wally comes out on top against WW.

DarkSaint85

And if we're talking about speed healing....

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9a7e3190e4c5f88c27676504a8689683

Walter West there. I also have other scans of him speed healing, and healing others.

riv6672

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know about anybody else, I'm curious what researching the actual comic record suggests AND how other people think and what criteria they're using, AND because the topic itself is an intriguing one.

It's JUST science-y enough to warrant semi-serious consideration from students of physics, for instance:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IpTwsJaLvA4
I've seen this before; very interesting! thumb up

carver9

@Darksaint,

Batman was only able to cut at his legs because Diana had him tied up AND Amazo was dodging an attack from Superman (and succeeded). He didn't even attempt to kick. Diana blitzed him during mid sentence while he was getting ready to attack. We know it was meant to be a speed ft because it out right says it as soon as she is done attacking. The thing that makes it even more interesting is Amazo being able to react to Superman blitzing over trying to take out his eyes. Your argument would've been solid if Amazo attempted to kick them off but he didn't. He did dodge Supes though.

Come on Darksaint, the scan you posted of Flash saving Wonder Woman, she wasn't even looking at him/Lantern. We know for a FACT that if Diana seen that attack coming, she would've dodged or slapped the blast out of the way.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by carver9
@Darksaint,

Batman was only able to cut at his legs because Diana had him tied up AND Amazo was dodging an attack from Superman (and succeeded). He didn't even attempt to kick. Diana blitzed him during mid sentence while he was getting ready to attack. We know it was meant to be a speed ft because it out right says it as soon as she is done attacking. The thing that makes it even more interesting is Amazo being able to react to Superman blitzing over trying to take out his eyes. Your argument would've been solid if Amazo attempted to kick them off but he didn't. He did dodge Supes though.

Come on Darksaint, the scan you posted of Flash saving Wonder Woman, she wasn't even looking at him/Lantern. We know for a FACT that if Diana seen that attack coming, she would've dodged or slapped the blast out of the way.

There are scans of WW without sight doing pretty ok. Hell, I'm sure you've seen her without eyes against Zoom. So sight isn't the issue - she hasn't even had time to register that she was under attack, and in that time,Flash has scanned 500,000 people, found the culprits, carried them over to GL, and placed them right in front of the beam.

Before she even knows she's being attacked.

Look at your scan again. His legs aren't tied up at all. Batman managed to grab his leg, go into his utility belt, select the correct tool,and make a pretty big cut in his legs. All before Amazo can even try to kick him off. Look at your scan again....Bats has empty hands when he grabs Amazo. Yet had time to select the right tools to cut.

He didn't attempt to,because Batman was too fast. No other reason, his legs weren't tied up....unless you're saying he WANTED his legs cut off?

If a guy grabs you whilst your arms are pinned down, and starts cutting your legs off....you're telling me you wouldn't kick him away? Of course you would. But how long would it take before you started kicking him lol?

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by carver9

Come on Darksaint, the scan you posted of Flash saving Wonder Woman, she wasn't even looking at him/Lantern. We know for a FACT that if Diana seen that attack coming, she would've dodged or slapped the blast out of the way.

Combatting this scale of misrepresentation is the other reason I post.

DS presents this as a failure of Wonder Woman to react at speed when it's really a case of Wonder Woman not reacting to a friend suddenly and unexpectedly turning foe WHILE SHE IS CONCENTRATING ON SAVING THE LIVES OF THOUSANDS.

The showing in question comes again from the Terror Incognito storyline, JLA #56 and 57, if memory serves. It is the return of the White Martians storyline, just before the Justice League discovers THAT the White Martians are a threat once again. The Martians take over the minds of some engineers in Murmansk, which is a place in DC Russia, I believe, and manage to cause a nuclear explosion. Fortunately, Green Lantern, Flash, Plastic Man and Wonder Woman are all on hand ...

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555711_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555712_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555713_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555714_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555715_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555716_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555717_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555718_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555719_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36555720_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

So my original point still stands.

Wally was able to react to a friend (if memory serves, Kyle was his best friend in the League) unexpectedly turning foe and attacking his allies.

WW was not.

Flash too was also involved in SAVING THE LIVES OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

He still reacted, when WW hadn't even moved.

No misrepresentation there.

I wanted to convey the scale of his actions. How he was able to realise, scan,pick up, carry and hurl them all in the same span of time where WW was frozen.

If you wanted to combat misrepresentation, why do you post Injustice Wonder Woman scans in this thread?

bluewaterrider

I'm focusing on speed because the opening post gives the erroneous idea that Wonder Woman can only move about as fast as a fighter jet,
by describing "speed of Mercury" as Mach 3.

That needs to be dealt with, because, in reality, Wonder Woman has proven capable of capturing Flash while he is moving at very fast speeds indeed.
One good example of this is in JLA #77, where the JLA encounter an AWESOMELY dangerous device called the "Mnemon" ...

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36555835_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36555837_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36555838_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36555839_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36555840_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36555841_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36555842_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

That's Wally who isn't in his right mind,again,as I said in one of my first few posts (and subsequently emphasised).

I'm not focussing too much on the OP - because I don't low ball. By that I mean, I've def seen WWabove Mach 3, hence why I didn't say anything about it.

Moreover, I have gone on record here in the forums insisting it doesn't mean much.

Let's say I have a Ferrari. I'm driving down the road, currently at 50mph.

Does that mean I'm limited to 50mph? No. It merely is a snapshot in time of what my current speed is.

Hence why I didn't say a peep.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So my original point still stands.

Wally was able to react to a friend (if memory serves, Kyle was his best friend in the League) unexpectedly turning foe and attacking his allies.

WW was not.

Flash too was also involved in SAVING THE LIVES OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

He still reacted, when WW hadn't even moved.

No misrepresentation there.

I wanted to convey the scale of his actions. How he was able to realise, scan,pick up, carry and hurl them all in the same span of time where WW was frozen.

Very sizeable misrepresentation.

Flash is able to react because he is LOOKING at Green Lantern when Lantern attacks Wonder Woman.

Diana has her head turned, still focusing on the people she is saving.

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36556038_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

Except again, my point: she hasn't, despite saving THOUSANDS, moved at all. Despite Flash doing all of his actions.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's Wally who isn't in his right mind, again, as I said in one of my first few posts (and subsequently emphasized) ...

That Mnemon showing is good for Wonder Woman either way.

Either Wally is more predictable when "not in his right mind" there, in which case Diana was good at spotting the pattern he made and can recognize such things very quickly

or

Wally is less predictable and more random when "not in his right mind", in which case Wonder Woman can lasso Wally even when he is traveling at great speed and being unpredictable.

https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/36556057_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

There is a third option which you haven't considered.
Flash had lost all of his skills. All of his caution. He may want to do XYZactions.....but doesn't know how to.

As seen in your scans.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except again, my point: she hasn't, despite saving THOUSANDS, moved at all. Despite Flash doing all of his actions.

I share Carver's puzzlement at why you're trying to pursue a fruitless route like this. Diana frequently reacts to maneuvers from people far faster than Kyle and from far closer range than we're shown in that Murmansk encounter:

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36556129_image.jpg

Source: Supergirl #5
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Circa: 2006

DarkSaint85

Because ABC logic doesn't work.

Why don't you focus your efforts not on other people,but on Wally vs Wonder Woman?

Both of them, in their prime (as in this thread) in a direct comparison of speed.

No mind control, not relative to Superman,or Amazo, or DS, or White Martians. Wally and WW.

Because so far, all you two have shown is that Batman would beat both Flash and WW. He's also reacted to HV. He's beaten DS in combat. He's managed to cut Amazo's legs without him being able to react to it. He's taken out no less than four Martians on his lonesome. So using ABC logic is the fruitless endeavor here.

DarkSaint85

You speak of misrepresentation,but I like how you missed this scan from your previous upload:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119260/4246361-9256831789-wwvf2.png

Straight from the horse's mouth,as it were. Curious how neither you nor Carver have posted it.

bluewaterrider

I missed scans from that Starro upload because I possess that book neither in concrete form nor in digital. I could not tell you right now what magazine that is taken from to save my life. I could probably find out, but it would take a few moments on Google. When I told you "while I'm looking at them" a few pages ago, I was literally referring to a random collection of scans, of which only those two were identifiably from JLA versus Starro.

On the other hand, when you posted that image of Wonder Woman getting shot? I knew immediately what arc that was from, and the name Yannick Paquette came to mind, and I recognized instantly that girl wasn't a normal girl but a meta human being who rivals or surpasses Wonder Woman in physical stats including super speed and dexterity. Her name is Devastation, and it's debate-able whether that's even an ordinary gun she used, but it sure as shoot in' isn't a normal person firing that thing. Diana would have had little reason to think Deva could move as fast as she did, for no normal human could.

Somewhere I have that book. I could probably produce the physical copy for you within an hour. Ditto for Supergirl #4 or #5.

riv6672

Damn you are putting in some work here. thumb up

This is being screencapped & saved.

DarkSaint85

Cool.

So we have WW herself saying Flash is an indistinct blur - she only managed to later snag him due to him being mind controlled.

We have a race between the two, at WWs instigation, where he's not only beating her but he's doing so by running backwards.

We have your and Carver's well said point that she was unaware - and thus unable - to react to an attack, as she couldn't see it.

A confession that Wally is an indistinct blur to her..

Let's drop the ABC logic. Of mind control, Supergirl's, Supermen, Martians, Amazos, Deathstrokes and their ilk, and focus on WW and Flash.

@riv : thanks, it's appreciated.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because ABC logic doesn't work.

Why don't you focus your efforts not on other people,but on Wally vs Wonder Woman?

Both of them, in their prime (as in this thread) in a direct comparison of speed.

No mind control, not relative to Superman,or Amazo, or DS, or White Martians. Wally and WW.

Because so far, all you two have shown is that Batman would beat both Flash and WW. He's also reacted to HV. He's beaten DS in combat. He's managed to cut Amazo's legs without him being able to react to it. He's taken out no less than four Martians on his lonesome. So using ABC logic is the fruitless endeavor here.

I marvel at how you are able to stitch so MANY deceptions into a post.
In fact one reason I often post with you is that I'm still trying to figure out if you yourself are fully aware of what you're doing when you post like this.

For instance "both ... in a direct comparison of speed".

The language itself automatically encourages people to think that whoever would win in a RACE would win in a fight, as if people with literal earthquake-making strength have nothing that could affect a ground-dependent speedster, let alone when the EarthShaker can also fly above the field at great speeds, where, until shown otherwise, they'd be untouchable.

Another is "each in their prime". When on the first page you show a much weaker version of Wonder Woman, fully a decade removed from the one in question, getting felled by a sniper bullet, and a meta human faking out one preceding the Sacrifice and Simone-era Wonder Women, knowing that some people read only the first page of a thread and no further.

You ask why Carver has not posted more. When in other threads you 2 have had so much conflict the mods have given you warnings that bans would be given if your behavior continued or escalated.

You also ignore that Wonder Woman and Flash are allies on a team.
There's not much occasion for them to be fighting one another UNLESS they are merely training, in which case their contest can be dismissed as friendly,
or are just meeting for the first time, in which case it can be argued one or both are inexperienced, or are being controlled or manipulated against their will.
Where is this pool of Wonder Woman versus Flash fights we have in order to draw from? If they exist, here is precisely the place to present them.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by carver9
I just don't see these fights like this on KMC. When we make matches, I thought they fight in character but at the same time, they are trying to take each other out. Not using the friend factor as a set back. If that was the case, why would they even fight in the first place if we are playing the friend card. They could just stand there and end this in a stalemate.

I just think Diana is fast enough to tag him. Amazo was said to be faster than Superman and Diana was still able to blitz him and hang with him far better than any JLA.

He does know her but do you remember this scene???

https://i.imgur.com/4uZO9VL.jpg

Amazon was said to have the speed of Flash (along with other speedsters) and Diana was able to fully tie him up before he could perceive it. Flash isn't winning this.

He had the speed of Flash and Superman, and the MA knowledge of Batman. Black Canary, Hal, Red Arrow - they seem to be fine:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fExJgknsMAE/VuJwtb07OPI/AAAAAAAAJWI/6WXYroBUem09TnwrBscLgch520Z73_YIQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO020_w.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8cXbrUPur8Q/VuJwtutTJ9I/AAAAAAAAJWI/41EFN_DCv7Ybh5emF3-OmuOHl06Tnm_CwCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO021.jpg

I mean, he even had the prep of Batman, lol:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--3-QjOrWY-8/VuJzEGF3COI/AAAAAAAAJs8/5kGsB7iO8OEHv9dyTs6o8hRB56HUgszJQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO014.jpg

So if you think Bats, whilst his legs are being cut off, let's people do it....

Bluewater brought up a good point, though. Read Amazo's speech. He thinks he's Red Tornado - and that WW is hid friend. Just like Kyle Rayner sucker punched WW because she wasn't expecting an attack from a friend, so too did WW sucker punch Amazo because he didn't expect an attack from a friend.

Here is the next couple of pages.

Note in YOUR scan, Amazo has only formed the word 'Situation' Bruce cuts his legs.

Then:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Hi-USiqMCIY/VuJ1I_rS1fI/AAAAAAAAKB8/9fvV92Ju5hw7EkAgb1y0aZuNcDPnZfXNQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO007.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2u60m9pT_ak/VuJ1Jgw7rXI/AAAAAAAAKB8/pcmosi-13scT-FPc8H0fHrMm2igLwiSkwCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO010.jpg

He STILL thinks they're his friends.

This scan that you've been using all this time as proof of WW's speed...has context.

But of course, with Wally's speed:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LeeLUGaoOLA/VuJ1KAl89OI/AAAAAAAAKB8/JKbNou5XLe8ZAd-x9GMVL2jNCCtI-qkoACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO013.jpg

Note, this is AFTER he had drained WW. Guess he knows who to draw on, right?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-spd_K9XQzVo/VuJ1J78ONrI/AAAAAAAAKB8/ZNdTQNfhjHwqWv5PVvx3va74581zM5JFACCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO012.jpg

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I marvel at how you are able to stitch so MANY deceptions into a post.
In fact one reason I often post with you is that I'm still trying to figure out if you yourself are fully aware of what you're doing when you post like this.

For instance "both ... in a direct comparison of speed".

The language itself automatically encourages people to think that whoever would win in a RACE would win in a fight, as if people with literal earthquake-making strength have nothing that could affect a ground-dependent speedster, let alone when the EarthShaker can also fly above the field at great speeds, where, until shown otherwise, they'd be untouchable.

Forum rule. They start on the ground. So yes, it IS a race - WW to get off the ground/punch the ground/pray to the gods/whatever you see fit to use as a tactic, and Wally to punch her (or speedsteal). Guess who's faster?

It was a direct reply to your use of PIS and Deathstroke. At least I didn't post Injustice WW, who is a completely different universe, let alone timeline.

Not me. I've not been warned.

There is the one you posted, where WW says Flash is far faster than her (well, I had to post the scan, but it was the same fight you helpfully brought up). Flash was mindcontrolled, and was fighting out of character there - but it helpfully illustrates the speed difference between the two. Whilst I agree, it is not a race, WW was hardly flying up into the air, or thunderclapping, or anything like that - she was getting punched in the face. As you yourself pointed out, speedsteal is also in character - so had Flash just stolen her speed, instead of punching her, well....

There is also the race. Again, I agree - it is not a race here. But it once again illustrates the gap in speed we are dealing with. When racing Superman, he puts effort in, and his style is akin to an Olympic sprint.

With WW? He runs backwards. And is still faster.

When the bell rings, he would be an indistinct blur to her - per her own admission. However, he WOULDN'T be running like a starfish, attacking her from pre-set, easily guessable points.

IOW, we already have had this fight. And Flash was winning, until Starro's predictability let him down.

bluewaterrider

Speed steal may be a winning technique here.
Without research, I can't answer it either way.
For now I'm willing to grant, if only for the sake of argument, that Flash could get a win percentage based on how likely it is that he would actually use that technique.

The problem is that Wonder Woman has a lot of things that SHOULD be the case for her but are not. For instance if she can fall under the sway of Fernus, J'onn Jonnz burning Martian form, she should theoretically have fallen to Max Lord, who was such a threat that even Batman warned J'onn to stay away from Max.

Instead she proves practically alone among the Justice League who can stop Max.

Wonder Woman's Secret Files and Origins book highlights a few more things that should be the case for her but are not, as a younger Diana tells her mentor, Phillipus:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36557215_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36557216_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36557217_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36557218_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36557219_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36557220_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36557221_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36557222_image.jpg

carver9

Wonder Woman blind fighting Flash hand to hand...

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/1093/460174-ww212blindvsjla19qx.jpg

Here is the kicker...Diana was adapting to Flash speed. To the point that she was overwhelming him in h2h combat. Sensing the changes in air pressure.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/1093/460173-ww212blindvsjla30pe.jpg

And this is while blind. She stomps this tbh.

bluewaterrider

The Doomsday comment made by Cassie is interesting.
I don't have much more time to examine today, but I seem to remember Doomsday having spiked knuckles, which should, by all rights, leave puncture wounds on Diana anytime they brawl. This is PART of what they refer to, a clone of DD that literally became stronger with each passing moment:

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36557298_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36557299_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36557300_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36557301_image.jpg

carver9

bluewaterrider

Diana is a pretty hard-muscled young lady by the time she nears the prime you're suggesting we take these characters at, D.S.

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36557308_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman #40, Volume 3

I'm recalling that now from having seen, in the course of researching for this thread, not only Flash's hand bruised from punching Deathstroke, but also bleeding IIRC, from punching SuperboyPrime.

bluewaterrider

Worth pointing out, and apologies but I'm running up on a deadline here, but compared to Flash, Diana has a RIDICULOUS level of physical strength.

Famously posted is that image of she and Superman and Jonnz tugging to get Earth back in orbit.

But even an effort with something 1/60th that mass suggests she's no true underdog:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36557312_image.jpg

bluewaterrider

This is the one I really want most answered.

Wonder Woman versus Doom.

Note that this BEFORE Wonder Woman endures that near the sun to the Earth haymaker by Superman in Sacrifice.

Note that she takes all these punches while blinded.

Note that some of these are hard enough to launch her literally hundreds or even thousands of miles away to other countries.

Notice that this is Zoom, who, if I remember correctly, took on several Flashes correctly.

And note with all that who comes out on top:

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557314_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557315_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557316_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557317_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557318_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557319_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557320_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557321_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557322_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557323_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman Volume 2. #214 or thereabouts ...

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by carver9
Wonder Woman blind fighting Flash hand to hand...

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/1093/460174-ww212blindvsjla19qx.jpg

Here is the kicker...Diana was adapting to Flash speed. To the point that she was overwhelming him in h2h combat. Sensing the changes in air pressure.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/1093/460173-ww212blindvsjla30pe.jpg

And this is while blind. She stomps this tbh.

thumb up

I was waiting for these scans.

Here, WW realises that they are mollycoddling her:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/14/144096/3769119-3570542397-35517.jpg

And once again....Batman saves the day. So apparently she can 'adapt to Wally's speed' and 'sense air pressure'....but not Batman, lol.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/14/144096/3769122-1208674650-35517.jpg

So IF we take this fight as gospel.....if a punch from the human level Batman pretty much incapacitates her, what would one IMP do???

Originally posted by carver9
You just used a Lantern in your post though. Why can't we use others?

My point was that when both of them were in direct comparison with each other, Flash did like 10 actions, when WW didn't even do 1.

I didn't use a Lantern. It was to show that in the time it took Lantern's light to travel a tiny distance, Wally did loads of stuff, whilst WW was unable to react.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This is the one I really want most answered.

Wonder Woman versus Doom.

Note that this BEFORE Wonder Woman endures that near the sun to the Earth haymaker by Superman in Sacrifice.

Note that she takes all these punches while blinded.

Note that some of these are hard enough to launch her literally hundreds or even thousands of miles away to other countries.

Notice that this is Zoom, who, if I remember correctly, took on several Flashes correctly.

And note with all that who comes out on top:

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557314_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557315_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557316_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557317_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557318_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557319_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557320_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557321_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557322_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36557323_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman Volume 2. #214 or thereabouts ...

So wait, previously you said that she was unable to react to the attack from behind because she couldn't see.

Now, as I predicted, you argue that with Zoom, she also cannot see - yet seems to do fine?

You should also pay attention to your own scans. Previously, you mentioned hand bruising against DS. Did you not see the IMP? Did you not read WW's statement where he heals as fast as he does everything else?

Moreover, as Diana says, he's not truly faster than her.

Wally, however, is.

But I like how we're back to ABC logic, again. Adding Zoom to White Martians, Amazo, Deathstroke, Supergirl....it's like we're using the whole of DC, just not the characters mentioned in the thread!

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb up

I was waiting for these scans.

Here, WW realises that they are mollycoddling her:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/14/144096/3769119-3570542397-35517.jpg

And once again....Batman saves the day. So apparently she can 'adapt to Wally's speed' and 'sense air pressure'....but not Batman, lol.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/14/144096/3769122-1208674650-35517.jpg

So IF we take this fight as gospel.....if a punch from the human level Batman pretty much incapacitates her, what would one IMP do???

My point was that when both of them were in direct comparison with each other, Flash did like 10 actions, when WW didn't even do 1.

I didn't use a Lantern. It was to show that in the time it took Lantern's light to travel a tiny distance, Wally did loads of stuff, whilst WW was unable to react.

For carver. You were missing a page from your scans, the page where WW realises they're holding back. But its OK.

Once the League stops holding back, BATMAN gets the drop on her. ABC logic is fun!

riv6672

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
@riv : thanks, it's appreciated.
No, -i- appreciate it.
Theres nothing worse than starting a thread that gets no replies, or just a handful of 'shit stomp' posts.
Conversations like this are why i started posting in the first place.

DarkSaint85

Flash doesn't get hit unless he wants to be.

RealityWarper

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Flash doesn't get hit unless he wants to be.

Despite how many times he is hit even he doesn't want to be ?

riv6672

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Flash doesn't get hit unless he wants to be.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Despite how many times he is hit even he doesn't want to be ?

LMFAO laughing

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Despite how many times he is hit even he doesn't want to be ?

smile

Shhhh am quoting Carver's scan with Amazo. It's a trap!

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Previously, you mentioned hand bruising against DS.

Indeed. That happened just before that scene where Slade trips Flash into a REAL brick wall.

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36558231_image.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Did you not see the IMP? Did you not read WW's statement where he heals as fast as he does everything else?

Yes, but what exactly does that MEAN if Flash is fighting an opponent with Diana's physical strength and prowess.

Flash is laid out for a notable time here, for instance, as J'onn makes mention of:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36558232_image.jpg

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

I like how we're back to ABC logic, again. Adding Zoom to White Martians, Amazo, Deathstroke, Supergirl....it's like we're using the whole of DC, just not the characters mentioned in the thread!

Problem is you're calling "ABC" what is normally done anytime we have Marvel versus DC or any 2 combatants who don't have much of a fight history to examine.

And then trying to disguise "Flash would win in a race!" material as the only acceptable evidence for fight victory. We already know who wins a head-to-head race between the two. But if merely being faster was enough to guarantee victory, Flash would have no losses on his record. He does have losses on his record. And to people a whole lot slower and weaker than Diana.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So wait, previously you said that she was unable to react to the attack from behind because she couldn't see.

Now, as I predicted, you argue that with Zoom, she also cannot see - yet seems to do fine?

Even in the real world of fighters and martial artists, there's often a vast difference between handling an attack when you know you're actually in a fight with someone, and reacting to an assault COMPLETELY unprepared.

Under such conditions, even things you normally shrug off can be devastating.

The following is a good illustration of this, and if one day YouTube takes this vid down, just Google "Richard Grant" boxer.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=anh65MIl9xw

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

In character he's not harming his friend.

He knows her. He knows her skills. Why would he try and fight ...?

Originally posted by carver9
I just don't see these fights like this on KMC. When we make matches, I thought they fight in character but at the same time, they are trying to take each other out. Not using the friend factor as a set back. If that was the case, why would they even fight in the first place if we are playing the friend card. They could just stand there and end this in a stalemate.

Originally posted by riv6672

Now i guess we have the friend card?

Nice ...

mmm

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36564709_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36564710_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/36564711_image.jpg

thumb up

I can dig it.

riv6672

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
smile

Shhhh am quoting Carver's scan with Amazo. It's a trap!
ACKBAR!!!

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Problem is you're calling "ABC" what is normally done anytime we have Marvel versus DC or any 2 combatants who don't have much of a fight history to examine.

And then trying to disguise "Flash would win in a race!" material as the only acceptable evidence for fight victory. We already know who wins a head-to-head race between the two. But if merely being faster was enough to guarantee victory, Flash would have no losses on his record. He does have losses on his record. And to people a whole lot slower and weaker than Diana.

And when they HAVE tangled, he was beating WW pretty handily, until Starro messed up. Speed, in this case, was what was giving him the winning edge. Starros predictability, was his losing edge. Take that away, and well....

The other time a pre 52 WW and Wally have tangled, he kicked her in the head and she was KOd. Again, with his speed.

Using their entanglements with other characters, like I said, merely makes Batman the greatest hero in DC....as we've seen with Carvers scans. She knew full well she was in a fight with Bruce, and he, with his human speed and strength, hurt her pretty well.

I note that Deathstroke also drew blood with HIS strength and speed.

That's only if we go the lowball and PIS route, though, which I don't use unless the other side starts.

So we do have direct head to head confrontation. The scale of his reflex AND travel speed is above WW. I posted the Terra Incognito scans with Kyle, to show the differences between them. He was able to scan 500,000 people, find two, pick them up, carry them, and place them in harms way....all in a picosecond. Whilst she hardly even moved a muscle doing anything (not just talking about moving out of harm's way, although your and carvers scans show she doesn't need her eyes.....so why didn't she react??)

So it's not just travel speed. Like WW notes (thanks for the scan!) He does everything fast. He fights at those speeds as well.

In a forum fight, as people have helpfully pointed out, where they're not messing about and fighting to the best (so no 'oh no, you're my friend, I must Molly coddle you!!!!) Flash will be fighting seriously.

Which would make him an indistinct blur to her.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And when they HAVE tangled, he was beating WW pretty handily, until Starro messed up. Speed, in this case, was what was giving him the winning edge. Starros predictability, was his losing edge. Take that away, and well....

Take that away and you have Wonder Woman versus Zoom, shown earlier.

And with the exception of a Flash choice to use speed steal, you need to tell me why Flash should be expected to fare any better.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

The Brave and the Bold scan still doesn't show much, especially as we know Flash has MUCH better evacuation feats ...

specifically says that WW doesn't have to be fast - just predict where STARRO was going to attack.

So yeah, she didn't use speed.

If Wonder Woman does that well WITHOUT speed, as you claim it above, how well would she actually do WITH it?

But perhaps you're just being lax with language here ...?

Regardless, it probably is a good idea to establish Wondy is not limited to Hulk versus Thor level speed. Might be a good idea to start with arguably the most infamous once-in-awhile talked about feat, "deflecting the Shattered God".

What in the world is a "Shattered God"?

Until this month, I actually didn't know myself. Turns out it's a bastardized translation of the Biblical Judeo-Christian God, making me wonder the religious background of the Wonder Woman writer at that time.

This story, Wonder Woman #193 and 194, Volume 2, if memory serves,
features SG as a sort of Big Bang that exploded outward as a shower of light crystals at the beginning of creation, and, at the time of that arc's then telling, returns back to Earth. Or tries to. The critical thing about the SG affair is that Wonder Woman must prevent this being from reforming, else it means the end.
Of everything. And it's told as if even one of those many many light crystals reaches its destination, SG succeeds, so Wondy must parry them all. At least by fans on various forums. Usually ones that give nothing to corroborate what I just related. Or broken links. On what is touted as one of her greatest speed feats.
So, let's correct that:

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571515_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571516_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571517_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571518_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571519_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571520_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571521_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571522_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36571523_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman #193, Volume 2

bluewaterrider

This had to be separated into 2 posts.

If anyone's wondering why, that's because KMC only allows 10 images, which even includes smilies, to be posted in one post.

If you try to exceed that, even with a tiny winky or thumbs up signal or something of the like, you get the following error message:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572112_image.jpg

On the other hand, since this was effectively a 2 part story, the division is a surprisingly appropriate one.

Anyway, the actual feat termed "Shattered God" by Wonder Woman fans:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572113_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572114_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572116_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572117_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572118_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572119_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572120_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572121_image.jpg

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36572122_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman #194, Volume 2

bluewaterrider

It's easy to overlook some things because of the rushed or compressed way DC often presents them.

People wonder if Wonder Woman could take an i.m.p. for instance.
But Zoom actually treated Wonder Woman to a series of such strikes, not just one, overlooked till now in just about every thread I've ever examined.

Wondy has, in truth, a mini-world tour given her by Zoom's fists and feet, doubtless so Rucka could set the precedent for damage soak Diana would need to survive what was to come in the Sacrifice arc a few issues later

Priscilla Rich's Home, USA
(note that Priscilla Rich, the first Cheetah, is the 84 year old Diana asks about in the last panel, NOT the hapless Themysciran woman Zoom hit with 200 punches, shown when I first posted Diana versus Zoom)

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36572774_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36572775_image.jpg

Eiffel Tower, Paris, France

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36572776_image.jpg

Pyramids of Giza, Egypt

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36572777_image.jpg

Great Wall of China

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36572778_image.jpg

Themyscira, Mediterranean Sea, presumably somewhere near Greece

https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36572779_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36572780_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/36572781_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

Why don't you show the scan of WALLY punching WW?

One punch pretty much laid her out. And she admitted he could have laid millions, or Hundreds of millions, of the same on her over the course of the night.

Hence my point about ABC logic, which you're (willfully?) ignoring.

This thread is Wally vs WW. Not Zoom,not Shattered Gods, not White Martians, not Amazo, not Superman, not Supergirl,not Deathstrokes.....

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119260/4246361-9256831789-wwvf2.png

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why don't you show the scan of WALLY punching WW?

One punch pretty much laid her out. And she admitted he could have laid millions, or Hundreds of millions, of the same on her over the course of the night.

Hence my point about ABC logic, which you're (willfully?) ignoring.

This thread is Wally vs WW. Not Zoom,not Shattered Gods, not White Martians, not Amazo, not Superman, not Supergirl,not Deathstrokes.....

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119260/4246361-9256831789-wwvf2.png

I don't show the scan of Wally punching Wondy because you've shown it at least twice now.
Moreover, you know where the story is from and presumably have the book.
I do not. As I told you before.
Frankly, I would appreciate the title and issue number of that book if you have it.
It would help make this thread a good reference source for people.

I do not know whether that punch was the first, 2nd, or 300th Diana had taken.
You claim it nearly laid her out. But you claim a lot of things, and imply still more, with the most outrageous implication being that Wondy could not defend against a bolt from Green Lantern if she were in actual fight mode. Diana doesn't look in anymore trouble against Flash than she did against Zoom. Her tone isn't one of desperation, merely resignation that it's going to take some work and time and pain "it's going to be a long night ..."

The rest of your complaints have been addressed as well.
Review this thread please.

DarkSaint85

Again, my point was that in one picosecond, WE hardly moved a muscle.

In one picosecond, Wally scanned 500000 people, found 2, picked them up, carried them, then threw them into harms way.

Is any of that a claim? No.

Is any of that implied? No.

Neither have my complaints been addressed, as you assert.

I claim the use of Deathstroke is PIS.

That ABC logic is a useless endeavour, when we have WE herself comparing A to C.

One of my very first points was that all ABC logic would show, was that Batman was the fastest, strongest, greatest Leaguer.

Andyou're proving me right.

Here's Batman taking far more punches than WW.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124784/3520068-6749690873-29852.jpg

I posted that scan once before, of Wally punching WW. Strangely, you have no problem posting the same Deathstroke scan twice yourself, or of Zoom.....

bluewaterrider

Your point was that in one picosecond we hardly moved a muscle?
I wouldn't expect that we would. Are you jogging when you read your comics?

If you meant to write that Wonder Woman hardly moved a muscle in one picosecond, you need to tell me why she should have thought she needed to.
Do you expect to get stabbed by your friends the moment you turn your head when you have a conversation with them? Even if you're helping them control a crowd? At best you can make the case that Wondy should have been prepared for literally anything and wasn't.

You're definitely making a claim about what Wally did. You're doing that by simply stating what he did in that one picosecond. It just happens to be a verifiable claim and one backed by evidence, instead of the unsubstantiated variety.

I said little if anything regarding Deathstroke's actions as Plot Induced Stupidity (PIS) because I am not 100% sure they are. It's a common theme in comics that moving at different speeds gives a character different perception rates. For example, Gladiator as he normally is fights at roughly the rate Thor does when fighting Hulk. However, I distinctly remember a story when Thor and the Fantastic Four were sped up to the point that they were an almost imperceptible blur. Gladiator sped up to match their rate and suddenly they were no longer a blur but beings he could have more or less normal interaction with. Wally presumably has several such modes now. Can he make a miscalculation in any of them? Better question: Slade slamming Flash into a wall seems to be something from many years ago. Did Flash regularly demonstrate great enough control of his speed back THEN that an enemy catching him off guard as he rounds a corner would have been considered absurd?

Deathstroke drawing blood on Wonder Woman more than 20 years ago wasn't the absurdity some might have considered it in 2007. The great damage soak and healing and durability associated with her during the Sacrifice era came as a result of rather random, chaotic boosts. It's arguable that the upgrades in her toughness were the PIS, not her vulnerability.

For that matter, Wonder Woman since the 1940s has been a literal deus ex machina character, with her ability to take punishment as variable as the whims of her rotating roster of writers. The same Wonder Woman who literally lassoed the Moon and resisted tank shells bouncing off her body, is the same one who could be knocked unconscious with a blow from the butt of a rifle. It's as if Greek deities were constantly deciding what should physically happen to her in any adventure, and, of course, there is some truth to that.

bluewaterrider

Your claim of ABC is sophistry.

We are examining the options they have available in a fight, how likely they are to use those options, and how effective their commonly employed fight strategies have and should prove based on their history.

If the argument, for instance, is that Flash has the option of using a near-infinite mass punch on Wonder Woman then it's worth examining:

1) Is Flash actually likely to use such a thing on Diana?
2) DID Flash actually hit Diana with an I.m.p.?
3) If answer to #2 is "no", what happened when someone ELSE actually hit Wonder Woman with this kind of attack? A second time? A third?
4) What was the result of their fight? What were the circumstances?
Is the outcome reasonable and/or consistent with the rest of their history? Why or why not?

As for Batman:

1). Doubtless there are some incidences of Bruce enjoying PIS.
He's called "Batgod" for a reason.
2). Batman beating White Martians with flame is not something I would consider PIS. White Martians have been shown experiencing devastating psychological AND physical trauma near fire.
3). Zoom striking Batman and Batman surviving is no less plausible than Zoom striking the Themysciran woman who took 200 punches from him and survived.
Zoom has control over how hard and how fast he punches things and people.
4). Batman IS one of the greatest of the Justice League. He spends more time seeking ways to neutralize his inherent weaknesses than almost any other member.
5) I'll be glad to post your Zoom punching Batman scan.
Just give me a minute ...

bluewaterrider

Here you go:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36574314_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

At this point, we are just going round in circles as you post irrelevant things.

Usually am up for a long drawn out debate, but this has bored me far too much to be enjoyable...I simply don't want to engage with you further on this topic any longer.

DarkSaint85

bluewaterrider

I'm reasonably satisfied every major complaint D.S. has made has been directly addressed. Fairly little concrete reference information has been given for those things needing some investigative reading, so I'll probably begin supplying that as time permits.

I don't agree with blanket calling of Character X beating Character Y as P.I.S.
Often during the time period some of these skirmishes took place and the manner in which they occurred, the result often THEN made considerable sense.

For instance what we now term the Speed Force, described nowadays as if it has always existed in the DCU, seems actually to have been introduced only after about a decade had past from the post-Crisis On Infinite Earth series.

I learned that in the article linked here, because, as alluded to earlier, I was genuinely interested in seeing how Wondy's own Godwave interacted with Speedforce, which I've actually seen associated with or derived from GW on several forums or webpages now:

https://ifanboy.com/articles/dc-histories-speed-force/

DarkSaint85

That link just confirms the scan I posted.

That the Speed Force comes from Barry,NOT the Godwave.

leonidas

yeah that retcon (of barry being the source of the sf) is one of the worst in comics history. in fact, it might be THE worst. it made absolutely no sense--haven't followed flash lately but i hope it has made some sense since.

but yeah, the godwave has never played a part in the sf's origin. confused

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah that retcon (of barry being the source of the sf) is one of the worst in comics history. in fact, it might be THE worst. it made absolutely no sense--haven't followed flash lately but i hope it has made some sense since.

but yeah, the godwave has never played a part in the sf's origin. confused

You'll find a lot of websites arguing the opposite if you Google "Godwave" and "Speed Force".

Most of them seem to be based on Wiki's that seem to be based on the following:

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36582567_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36582568_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36582569_image.jpg

The above is either from Genesis #3, the comic, or New Gods Secret Files and Origins #1. Here's what Comicvine and Wikipedia have to say:

" The Godwave was a mystical wave of energy, created by The Source, that swept across the cosmos, responsible for creating various pantheons of gods. As it spread it eventually reached the edge of the universe and rebounded, making a second pass that created the potential for Superhumans. Thus, it was responsible for creating the likes of the Speed Force, the Quantum Field and the energy channeled by the Guardians of the Universe. In time, the resonance created by the Godwave began to expand and contract whereupon it returned to The Source. This expansion and contraction began to affect the powers of various beings throughout the universe. As a result, the cosmic energy force began to tear apart the structures it had created whereupon it would wipe the universe clean bringing about the emergence of a new and terrible Fifth World to replace it ... "

DarkSaint85

Yes, but retcon. Those scans have been retconned by Flash Rebirth, in 2009. A prime example of why we don't use wikis, and actually do our own research. Once more, I post my evidence. Again.

http://ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Flash-Rebirth-4-2009.jpg

By the by, with regards to your assertions of PIS:

So yeah, keep going. But know it's against forum rules.

Edit:

This is what I was driving at, when I said Flash would use speedsteal at the start, so as to not hurt WW.

He personally knows Diana (Opponent, Personality, and Experience). He's seen her in action. He knows not to pussyfoot around.

But neither is he going to blind her, or use esoteric attacks. I mean, HAD I wanted to argue out of character attacks, I would have used this:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/105919/2020712-drpolaris20vs20jla20281bf6.jpg

Low tolerance to high voltages, eh?

https://s5.postimg.org/wrilcgdav/elctromag2.jpg

Or:

https://s5.postimg.org/bxffm3xp3/overload.jpg

Infinite energy.

And again:

https://s5.postimg.org/hwylc0t3r/image.jpg

But again, I did not. I used a tactic that Flash has used several times before, notably against WW:

https://s5.postimg.org/culuuz97b/image.jpg

bluewaterrider

Didn't really notice the Flash Rebirth affair. So, in terms of getting it actually paid attention to by me, it's good you reposted.

As I said before, though, Godwave/Speedforce issues will take some time to get answers to. It means little to say Barry created the SpeedForce if the Godwave created the physics that permit superhumans in the DCU to begin with, including Barry.

As for Wikis, it's worthwhile to note are a lot more reliable than they were in the days when Stephen Colbert was joking about them, or even in Raz's day a decade or so ago. They usually are a good place to track down the primary sources of this stuff, too. They are a good aid and starting point in research in other words, and, every so often, are good enough to do the job on their own.

Incidentally, if you want to further people's knowledge, it would be helpful if you gave reference information for these submissions whenever and wherever you found you know them. This is one thing missing from many wikis and forum debated that PREVENTS people from doing practical research -- they simply don't know where to look and what books contain the answers they seek.

I think the idea of speed steal is a good one on your part. It would definitely be within character for Wally not to want to hurt Diana and to go for a relatively gentle means of taking her down. However it's rare enough that most people never heard of it. Practically unknown on this forum, I dare say, until you started presenting it in some of these threads, even by people who have spent years collecting Justice League titles. I'd be interested in knowing how much of a percentage it actually represents of Flash's historic m.o.

bluewaterrider

Retcons continually occur at DC, as you yourself are wont to point out, and they can be bane or boon to any particular character.

Regarding this however:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36583437_image.jpg
(Wonder Woman receiving high voltage shock from some villain, in an issue I'm not completely familiar with)

... it's worthwhile to point out Wonder Woman has demonstrated the ability to deflect lightning, even such that is blessed with magic, even such that brings planes and Superman to the ground:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36583438_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36583439_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36583440_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36583441_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36583442_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36583443_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36583444_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman #600

DarkSaint85

The speed steal was a relatively (ish) recent development in the 90s. Wally learnt how to do it from his older counter part, and once he was able to do it, he did it fairly regularly.

That 'random villain' is Dr Polaris, and it's from the JLA. As said before though, THAT'S a little used power, and that's what I've not used.

The speedsteal? We can create a straw poll, if you like. Other people not knowing it, does not make it invalid or false. Nor does it make it an unlikely tactic - we have seen Wally sparring with WW. He knows her, in fact, he's a little in awe of her, and rightly so. You have posted many scans of how formidable she is.....and Wally knows how formidable she is, too.

So why WOULD he just revert to the normal tactics he reserves for human level opponents like Captain Cold et al? Why wouldn't he bust out the big guns, to ensure victory? Why engage in the usual punching, when he knows WW is so skilled, so fast, so strong?

Deflecting Single, discrete bolts of lightning is fine and all....but once more,we revert to the speed issue. Wally is fast enough to be an indistinct blur, and asWW notes, he can do everything as quickly as he can run. Moreover, he can flood the entire area with electricity, as shown in my scans.

And as you have noted, if she is unable to register that she's been attacked, she's unable to defend herself. But again,that's a little used power, and one I haven't used. That's how it compares to the speedsteal,where I've posted multiple instances of him busting it out, against villains and heroes,as a first ditch attack even when he doesn't know them, or as a last ditch attack when he's desperate.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Deflecting Single, discrete bolts of lightning is fine and all....but once more,we revert to the speed issue. Wally is fast enough to be an indistinct blur, and as WW notes, he can do everything as quickly as he can run. Moreover, he can flood the entire area with electricity, as shown in my scans.

Let's be clear: I absolutely expect Diana to be tagged with SOMETHING when she's fighting the Flash. The question is, given the total package of her own speed, skill, and sheer physicality, will that something be enough to earn Flash the win against Diana before she manages to tag him?

I don't think electricity would earn a win. Post-Crisis Diana is probably not on the level of electric comfort of 2014 Diana ...

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584016_image.jpg

(DCnU Wonder Woman; don't know exactly which issue right now)

... but it's important to note that post-Crisis Wondy WAS heading in that direction

Here is where one of the anomalies I allude to shows up. Diana versus Cottis. Wonder Woman #39, Volume 3. Note that Wonder Woman herself uses an area lightning attack. Powerful enough to take out a Greek monster who supposedly shares some of her demigod power. While underwater. Should have had the hell shocked out of her, yes?

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584017_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584018_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584019_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584020_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584021_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584022_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584023_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584024_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/36584025_image.jpg

Source: Wonder Woman #39, Volume 3

bluewaterrider

Incidentally, as I'm SURE the question came to one or more people reading this thread, we apparently DON'T know yet why electric eels are able to do what they do and get away with it:

https://www.popsci.com/why-dont-electric-eels-electrocute-themselves

leonidas

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You'll find a lot of websites arguing the opposite if you Google "Godwave" and "Speed Force".

Most of them seem to be based on Wiki's that seem to be based on the following:

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36582567_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36582568_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/36582569_image.jpg

The above is either from Genesis #3, the comic, or New Gods Secret Files and Origins #1. Here's what Comicvine and Wikipedia have to say:

" The Godwave was a mystical wave of energy, created by The Source, that swept across the cosmos, responsible for creating various pantheons of gods. As it spread it eventually reached the edge of the universe and rebounded, making a second pass that created the potential for Superhumans. Thus, it was responsible for creating the likes of the Speed Force, the Quantum Field and the energy channeled by the Guardians of the Universe. In time, the resonance created by the Godwave began to expand and contract whereupon it returned to The Source. This expansion and contraction began to affect the powers of various beings throughout the universe. As a result, the cosmic energy force began to tear apart the structures it had created whereupon it would wipe the universe clean bringing about the emergence of a new and terrible Fifth World to replace it ... "

whoa, that wiki quote makes no sense at all for a few reasons, which leads me to believe that entire wiki should be tossed--as they usually should. it starts out quoting the book almost word for word then goes ahead and extrapolates based on...nothing really, aside from a random collection of heroes in a picture.

the comic explicitly states that that the wave passed initially, 40 000 years ago, then a second wave passed after that. well, the guardians had learned to harness willpower BILLIONS of years ago and the corps itself has been around almost as long--also billions of years. atlantis's known history extends back nearly 150 000 years ago. hell, at the time of that scan i don't even think the history of green martians had been retconned yet and they were millions and millions of years old as well. and even if they HAD been retconned, the BURNING had been around for millions of years and THEY were the martian antecedents and had vast powers already. and of course magic has been around pretty much since the start of the universe as well.

so....yeah. that scan, and the explicit claim that a wave only 40 000 years old granted all this power makes....no sense. at all. the book also explicitly says the wave bounced off the edge of the universe. but the sf (and many other energy sources) are located OUTSIDE the universe, so again, not sure how it can reasonably be assumed to have been the cause of the powers that wiki claims.

not, imo, coincidentally, the comic is somewhat ambiguous and really doesn't go into any detailed explanations regarding the formation of the these powers. lol i think that was intentionally done. that wiki quote is pretty ridiculous and extrapolates too far and so falls apart for many reasons. sounds like it was written by a godwave fanboy who just wanted it to take credit for everything. probably to ultimately hype up wonder woman. /shrug

and all that of course, is completely beside the point that the sf was retconned to be sourced in barry. which i'd personally like to pretend never happened.

abhilegend

Byrne tried to retcon everything as byproduct of third world destruction but it was forgotten as soon as he left DC and for good reasons.

Godwave itself has never been mentioned since Godwar arc from WW v2.

leonidas

with good reason for sure. thumb up

DarkSaint85

Well the implication from bluewater is that die to her connection to the Godwave, WW would be able to resist speedsteal.

Steve Zodiac

Flash fact, the Flash only ever loses to bricks due to forgetting his powers and PIS. Diana for all her "skill" is a flying brick.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
Flash fact, the Flash only ever loses to bricks due to forgetting his powers and PIS. Diana for all her "skill" is a flying brick.

I'm not really discovering that to be true. A lot of Flash's losses make considerable sense when considering the time period they were written in.
I was thinking of this when considering the episode DS vaguely alluded to a few pages back when he claimed Wonder Woman was "amped" as she neared the SpeedForce or something of the like.
He was talking about a comic called "Wonder Woman plus Jesse Quick".
I know because I own that story. I am almost certain DC has retconned the hell out of this by now, as they do with most everything else, but the story has a lot of implications for this thread that should be addressed, so ...

I want this to be a relatively self-contained and informative read without much text from myself, so this will take a few more images than normal, and thus one or two extra posts:

https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595721_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595722_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595723_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595724_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595725_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595726_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595727_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595728_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595729_image.jpg https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/36595730_image.jpg

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by leonidas
whoa, that wiki quote makes no sense at all for a few reasons, which leads me to believe that entire wiki should be tossed--as they usually should. it starts out quoting the book almost word for word then goes ahead and extrapolates based on...nothing really, aside from a random collection of heroes in a picture.

the comic explicitly states that that the wave passed initially, 40 000 years ago, then a second wave passed after that. well, the guardians had learned to harness willpower BILLIONS of years ago and the corps itself has been around almost as long--also billions of years. atlantis's known history extends back nearly 150 000 years ago. hell, at the time of that scan i don't even think the history of green martians had been retconned yet and they were millions and millions of years old as well. and even if they HAD been retconned, the BURNING had been around for millions of years and THEY were the martian antecedents and had vast powers already. and of course magic has been around pretty much since the start of the universe as well.

so....yeah. that scan, and the explicit claim that a wave only 40 000 years old granted all this power makes....no sense. at all. the book also explicitly says the wave bounced off the edge of the universe. but the sf (and many other energy sources) are located OUTSIDE the universe, so again, not sure how it can reasonably be assumed to have been the cause of the powers that wiki claims.

not, imo, coincidentally, the comic is somewhat ambiguous and really doesn't go into any detailed explanations regarding the formation of the these powers. lol i think that was intentionally done. that wiki quote is pretty ridiculous and extrapolates too far and so falls apart for many reasons. sounds like it was written by a godwave fanboy who just wanted it to take credit for everything. probably to ultimately hype up wonder woman. /shrug

and all that of course, is completely beside the point that the sf was retconned to be sourced in barry. which i'd personally like to pretend never happened.

thumb up

bluewaterrider

Diana's adventure with Jesse highlights an important connection between Savitar and Wondy's own patron of speed, Hermes. It is actually this story that probably has the most to suggest about whether speed steal would work on Diana.
Of note here is that Diana actually catches up to Jesse as Jesse obsessively pursues Christina:

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596127_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596128_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596129_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596130_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596131_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596132_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596133_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596134_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/36596135_image.jpg