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Palpatine is chilling on Naboo a week after ROTS wheb suddenly Ragnos appears in flesh and blood! Who wins?

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All out.

You can't be serious.

https://i.imgur.com/yQKApZY.jpg?1

I thought this was another necro'd thread from 2005.

Prolly Ragnos

Ragnos deadlifts Terentateks, does Sheev even lift bruh?

Palpatine ends him in a single attack.

Funny how Palpatine was utterly overwhelmed by Ragnos and a few other, lesser spirits and nearly died. Requiring a bacta tank to heal himself no less.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
Palpatine ends him in a single attack.

Originally posted by Azronger


Is AP a retard?

That's the best the Sheev brigade has to offer? As disappointing as usual.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
Is AP a retard?

Probably. He/she/it is certainly a dishonest liar and a whiny, condescending airhead, desperate to knock Sheev off of his dark throne, but too stupid to understand it'll never happen.

1.Copying Ant from four years ago is just sad.

2.Dishonest liar. You might want to find out what 'redundant' means.

3.You realise there are at least ten people who make a most powerful Star Wars list before Sheev even gets an honorary mention, right?

4.At least I'm not an absolutely horrifically poor rip-off of a Gideon sock.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Funny how Palpatine was utterly overwhelmed by Ragnos and a few other, lesser spirits and nearly died. Requiring a bacta tank to heal himself no less.

1. This was well before TPM, even.
2. We have no idea who the spirits even were.

Do you ever get tired of being so dishonest?

1.What are you talking about? It takes place between ESB & ROTJ. Durga saves him and Vader arrives to check up on him whilst he's in the bacta tank.

2.Palpatine directly debunks Plagueis claiming that his vision of Ragnos on Korriban was merely in his head with the admittance that those spirits nearly killed him. It's in Book of Sith. Besides that, all other known Sith spirits were either already incapacitated or elsewhere. Ragnos is the only one of significance even on Korriban. So it's him with aid or Palps got shitstomped by fodder spirits, you pick.

Perhaps before claiming dishonesty you could actually inquire as to what I'm referring?

Originally posted by AncientPower
1.What are you talking about? It takes place between ESB & ROTJ. Durga saves him and Vader arrives to check up on him whilst he's in the bacta tank.

Where was this noted, exactly? All we know is long, long ago before Sheev started commenting in BoS, he was nearly killed by spirits.

Originally posted by AncientPower
2.Palpatine directly debunks Plagueis claiming that his vision of Ragnos on Korriban was merely in his head with the admittance that those spirits nearly killed him. It's in Book of Sith. Besides that, all other known Sith spirits were either already incapacitated or elsewhere. Ragnos is the only one of significance even on Korriban. So it's him with aid or Palps got shitstomped by fodder spirits, you pick.

Perhaps before claiming dishonesty you could actually inquire as to what I'm referring?

Palpatine just says that Sith Spirits are quite real; he never says he saw Ragnos amongst them:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HqDCGzzjhhQ/WfW7VzkWLwI/AAAAAAAAGfQ/OBi0GHYn0wwKK6ZUPwjnDXVRUxyeurEgQCL0BGAYYCw/h431/2017-10-29.png

Also, if you actually read the paragraph on which Palpatine was commenting, it's just Plagueis' thoughts on spirits in general, not just Marka Ragnos. The Ragnos dream comes after Sheev's comments.
Basically, you have no proof what spirits attacked Sidious, you have no correlation between them and Ragnos and you have no way of knowing whether they are fodder or not. Hell, them "nearly killing" Sidious doesn't mean they shitstomped him; it means they tried to kill him, came close to it but Sidious pulled out ahead.

1.The Emperor's Pawns issue of Star Wars Gamer.

2.Given Plagueis is referring directly to his trip to Korriban, and furthermore that Plagueis' vision of Ragnos is precisely the reason he's 'unconvinced'. That's a moot point.

3.They subdued him entirely and Jeng Droga had to personally take him back to Imperial Center so he could heal inside a bacta tank. Pretty sure if they wanted to kill him, he'd have died.

1. Apparently Droga was enough to rescue Palpatine from the assault of those spirits, and this written at a time where Sheev has apparently died "many times" and was yet to earn the title of the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith. Regardless, all we know is Palpatine was injured and needed healing, Jeng Droga was enough to save him and the Sith spirits were angry with Palpatine because he wanted knowledge of everlasting life. Knowledge he later gained, I might add. And later on a hindered DE Sidious fought back against the same Sith Spirits who were pressing upon him... Yeah, they didn't subdue him entirely. Also, again, there's no specific timeframe given.

2. It doesn't matter because Sidious was commenting about Plagueis' statements of Sith Spirits in general. Marka is absolutely irrelevant to that. For a boastful ****, you really can't read properly or you just stretch these quotes beyond belief.

It took place in 0ABY, as far as I understand.

Well yes, Droga's arrival drove them off but then again it's stated that they overwhelmed Palpatine. So regardless, they attacked him and he required saving before being placed in a bacta tank. He didn't just heal himself through the Force, so evidently it was serious.

Not at all, I take things at face value and know for a fact that Ragnos was head of the ancient Sith spirits. Nadd included.

I'm still hesitant to put Ragnos above Nadd. Their spirit feats definitely go Freedon's way, but Marka has that quote...

Nowhere is it stated that they overwhelmed Palpatine.

Originally posted by AncientPower
as far as I understand.



In AP we trust.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It took place in 0ABY, as far as I understand.

First you claim it's between ESB and RotJ, now circa-ANH?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Well yes, Droga's arrival drove them off but then again it's stated that they overwhelmed Palpatine. So regardless, they attacked him and he required saving before being placed in a bacta tank. He didn't just heal himself through the Force, so evidently it was serious.

We know they attacked and injured him. We don't know when, how and under what circumstances. It could've been a cheapshot and if Droga -- a relative scrub who's sub Mara Jade, Jerec and Sedriss -- is enough to help Sheev drive them off then evidently it's fairly sketchy.

This is also assuming there is only one instances where Sith spirits attacked Sidious; the one in BoS and Gamer might not even be the same instance, since as per DE we know Sidious has tussled with the spirits of Korriban in the past.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not at all, I take things at face value and know for a fact that Ragnos was head of the ancient Sith spirits. Nadd included.

Taking things at face value isn't always a good thing, and Marka might've led some fodder spirits back in Kun's time, but we don't know if he's leading them during Sidious' time. The spirits that attacked Sheev in DE certainly had a stunning lack of Ragnos.

Because it's vague as hell, it's post-Death Star I and pre-Death Star II, if someone had the Comics Companion then that might clear it up.

I am not arguing that there isn't some context, but I'm also struggling to believe that Sidious of all Sith would be taken so easily off-guard. Especially given that he knows full well how dangerous they are.

If you can name any other 'ancient' Sith spirits who were actively on Korriban at this time, besides Marka Ragnos, and more powerful than he is, then I'd agree. I just find it exceedingly coincidental that he manages to comment on that exact part of the text with that event. (It's never mentioned that he went there more than twice by DE.)

Ok it was shortly after the Battle of Yavin where the whole thing with Palps, Droga and the Sith spirits.

Oh snap, the Sith Spirits had cowed the so-called most powerful Sith Lord of all time.


Sheev brigade scrambling for damage control.

They made Sheev their b*tch, lmfao.

The secret long kept by the Sheevites....revealed....decades of hard work...

Time to switch to the TOR brigade.

Is that quote canon? Also, how many of them did it take to subdue him?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The secret long kept by the Sheevites....revealed....decades of hard work...

Time to switch to the TOR brigade.

Nah, Droga's rescue of Sheev has been public knowledge since the Antediluvian days. It was referenced again in Book of Sith.

It's just that no one really cared. As Myth pointed out, the details are unknown.

An ironic piece of trivia: the authors of both sources would later go on to call Palpatine the most powerful Sith Lord ever in Who's Who: imperial Grand Admirals and multiple times in the Book of Sith endnotes.

Looks like the idea that those two accolades were in reference to polictal / military capital is basically confirmed given that those authors had Sheev getting stomped by spirits.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The secret long kept by the Sheevites....revealed....decades of hard work...

Time to switch to the TOR brigade.

Sheevites dying off, Gideon panicking. KMC is alive again

I'm in the throes of abject terror, indeed.

Will Ragnos reign as KMC's premier Sith once more?! :O

Originally posted by The Merchant
Will Ragnos reign as KMC's premier Sith once more?! :O
Behind Kun, yes

Palpatine wins, but it's not easily. Ragnos is more than powerful enough to give Palpatine a decent fight.

Originally posted by godemperortrump
Behind Kun, yes

That calls for another thread.

This might be my all-time greatest reveal.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I am not arguing that there isn't some context, but I'm also struggling to believe that Sidious of all Sith would be taken so easily off-guard. Especially given that he knows full well how dangerous they are.

Sidious has been cheapshotted a great deal of times, lmfao. I mean, just look at his death at the hands of Vader.
The fact that a hindered, near-death DE Sidious managed to ward off these same spirits and that Droga was enough aid to fend them off suggests there was certainly some added context of how the spirits did it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If you can name any other 'ancient' Sith spirits who were actively on Korriban at this time, besides Marka Ragnos, and more powerful than he is, then I'd agree. I just find it exceedingly coincidental that he manages to comment on that exact part of the text with that event. (It's never mentioned that he went there more than twice by DE.)

He doesn't comment on that part of the text, and I also don't really need to name any Sith because it's equally valid that said Sith would be in place of Ragnos, leading the Spirits. The ones we see in DE -- implied to be the same ones as before -- don't feature Marka in them.

Originally posted by MythLord
Sidious has been cheapshotted a great deal of times, lmfao. I mean, just look at his death at the hands of Vader.
Nothing implies that the spirits cheap-shotted Palpatine.

Originally posted by MythLord
The fact that a hindered, near-death DE Sidious managed to ward off these same spirits and that Droga was enough aid to fend them off suggests there was certainly some added context of how the spirits did it.
Nothing implies that the spirits attempted to kill Droga. They only assaulted Palpatine per the description.

Why they assaulted him? Because Palpatine somehow offended them.

Also, where is the evidence that the spirits attempted to kill Palpatine as of Dark Empire, again? I didn't come across such evidence in my readings.

When Palpatine (DE) communed with the spirits on Korriban, they showed him the vision of Leia Solo's child. He was the key to his survival.

The text says that the Spirits pressed upon Palpatine in Empires End, though when I read it I interpreted it that metaphorically not that they literally attacked him or anything.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nothing implies that the spirits cheap-shotted Palpatine.

It would honestly only make sense if they did. Like I said, the circumstances are unclear.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nothing implies that the spirits attempted to kill Droga. They only assaulted Palpatine per the description.

Why they assaulted him? Because Palpatine somehow offended them.

Yes, I'm sure Droga going in lightsaber-blazing to protect his master would definitely not cause the spirits to assault him or anything...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, where is the evidence that the spirits attempted to kill Palpatine as of Dark Empire, again? I didn't come across such evidence in my readings.

When Palpatine (DE) communed with the spirits on Korriban, they showed him the vision of Leia Solo's child. He was the key to his survival.

They were pressing upon him in Empire's End, trying to break him and he ended up warding them off.

https://i.imgur.com/Zd51rpk.jpg

Yeah, not sure what the fuss is about. We don't know:

What Palpatine's condition was
How many spirits there were
How long the fight lasted
...and so on.

And we certainly don't see any indication of any "stomping" anywhere. And indeed, if Jeng Droga is enough to rescue Palpatine there, it evokes skepticism regarding the legitimacy of the ancient Sith's newly-argued standing next to the Emperor, at least on an individual level. Collectively, sure, they can pose a threat, as the above clearly indicates, but once more, we don't know how many spirits there were, nor do we know how long the fight lasted, etc. It's for all intents and purposes, unquantifiable.

Not to mention in Empire's End, Palpatine didn't seem very concerned about dying when he revisited the Valley of the Dark Lords:

https://i.imgur.com/smRJtUd.png

https://i.imgur.com/Hwn183w.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qM0wiiD.jpg

As soon as he enters, the spirits start pressing on him, and Sheev from the looks of things doesn't give two shits. He starts ordering them around while far from peak condition and they acquiesce to his wishes. The impression I get is that even a handful of these spirits can't do jack to a half-dead Sheev who could barely use his Force abilities lest he further the necrosis and decay of his flesh. Not much else that needs to be said, tbh.

Also, there were apparently thousands of spirits on Korriban whose sole desire was to attack intruders like Palpatine.

Like many cultures, the Sith buried slaves, courtiers, and priests with their honored dead. Like many such belief systems, however, the ancient Sith had firsthand knowledge that the dark side would keep the souls of those crypt keepers trapped with their dead masters. Driven by hatred of those who entombed them and the madness that is existence in the dark side, the relatively weak spirits of thousands of lesser Sith act as protectors for the remains of their superiors.

Unable to exert enough strength to possess the living, these guardian spirits animate the fleshless corpses of various tomb robbers and space pirates that have unintentionally made Korriban their final resting place. A guardian spirit looks for all the world like a walking skeleton.

Millennia of madness in the dark side drive the possessing spirit insane. Therefore, they will not, and cannot, behave as sentient beings. They attack without mercy until they are physically destroyed. Even then, the guardian spirit may jump to another skeleton and rise again. Whatever they may once have been, these guardians now exist my as mindless walking dead, hulking, shambling things that must be destroyed to remove the taint of evil.

Walking dead guardian spirits are little more than shuffling bags of bones animated and filled with malicious intent by the dark side. They are immune to disease, the effects of cold, and the vacuum of space. The spirit energy that drives them is no longer sentient or self-aware, so it is not as susceptible to Force mental abilities. Indeed, they simply continue to obey the last command they received in life by protecting the necropolis from intruders.

The Dark Side Sourcebook

So Palpatine fended off thousands of lesser Sith spirits and an unknown number of greater spirits at once, presumably killed most of them given their lack of appearance upon his second trip to the Valley, and in a horrible condition is able to ward off several of the strongest ones who had held dominion for centuries in their heyday.

That's a pretty great feat for Sheev

Just raised Sidious. Thx.

Good for Droga really.

Not at all. A lot better for Sidious. Seems this new attempt backfired.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This might be my all-time greatest reveal.

Ironic, but it's true. For once you did something productive with your life and ennobled Sheev in the eyes of this boards' members by exhorting me to do some affixed inquiry. Your benefaction to Sheevism has been most effiacacious

Nice Azronger.

It is confirmed. Sheev can not army bust.

Originally posted by ziggtard
It is confirmed. Sheev can not army bust.

Lawl, a petty loss. Besides, this is ANH Sheev, a decade before DE.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Good for Droga really. Droga > Ragnos

Droga was also personally trained and had his powers amped by Sheev. So if one wishes to see this as a feat for Droga, it's ineluctably a feat for Sheev too, no matter which way you spin it.

Azronger is The true successor to Tempest.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Azronger is The true successor to Tempest.

Yup. Tempest proclaimed me his inheritor a while back. I will be the new Grand Sheevite after him.

So Sidious failed where the Exile, Exar Kun and others have succeeded? Damn, pretty terrible for the most powerful Sith of all-time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, Droga's rescue of Sheev has been public knowledge since the Antediluvian days. It was referenced again in Book of Sith.

It's just that no one really cared. As Myth pointed out, the details are unknown.

An ironic piece of trivia: the authors of both sources would later go on to call Palpatine the most powerful Sith Lord ever in Who's Who: imperial Grand Admirals and multiple times in the Book of Sith endnotes.

Oh, mi lord. Your presence gives me new found strength in our revered master, Sheev Palpatine, blessed his name be, thank you. Help us rid ourselves of this Ragnos insurrectionists.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yup. Tempest proclaimed me his inheritor a while back. I will be the new Grand Sheevite after him.
All you need to do to be Temp's equal is constantly get a spanking from Nai. I think you can do that

Well played by Azronger.


KMC Thread #14672: Sheev Brigade Strikes Back.

He really hasn't, that DS sourcebook quote would apply to the Exile and Exar Kun too. It's a pretty desperate attempt on his part.

Azronger smashed house there. So much for the lowballers.

Originally posted by godemperortrump
All you need to do to be Temp's equal is constantly get a spanking from Nai. I think you can do that

Funny how it was Nai who got a spanking from me the last time we had a debate.

Oh, and AP, care to show us where Meetra and Kun destroyed thousands of Sith spirits on their own?

Originally posted by Azronger
Funny how it was Nai who got a spanking from me the last time we had a debate.
Link. You beat him on a Sidious vs Ancient Sith thread?

Care to show me where Sheev did?

Meetra had to kill dozens of Hssiss, who were manifestations of Sith spirits, as she traversed the Valley of the Dark Lords. She faced even worse than that in the Tomb of Ludo Kressh.

Exar Kun slaughtered the dozens of tomb beasts who were commanded by Sith spirits as he entered the super special Sith Council hall that only ever appeared one other time.

Oh and just so you know, Korriban even as of Bane's time is nowhere near as potent as it had been when the two of them traversed it. Even more so for the Exile given that Revan a few years earlier slaughtered an entire academy of Sith. Those who remained massacred each other, something Traya explicitly warns her of.

You're trying to make it sound special, it's actually pathetic.

Are you equating murdering beasts of Korriban as being on par with destroying thousands of spirits and later warding off multiple of them in a near-death state?

BTW, yeah, this isn't really the most impressive feat for Sheev, but it's not a bad showing either like you originally tried to play it off. Your backpedaling is outstanding, tbh.

He hasn't even proven Sidious fought those spirits. He took a generic statement from the DS: Sourcebook about Korriban and implied that Sheev destroyed them all.

But no, they aren't mere beasts. They are the spirits made manifest.

Why do people believe, force power weakens in near death states.
It shouldn't have any affect, unless their mental state is screwed.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He hasn't even proven Sidious fought those spirits. He took a generic statement from the DS: Sourcebook about Korriban and implied that Sheev destroyed them all.

But no, they aren't mere beasts. They are the spirits made manifest.

Well, Sidious and Droga obviously did something pretty damaging to them. Az's point stands.

They did well enough to escape and Sidious was still so badly injured he required a bacta tank to recover from the damage.

My point stands, his is left flailing like a lobotomy patient.

I do concede that Ragnos may not be involved though so I don't see why you care.

Luke recquired a bacta tank after his fight with Caedus. He still stomped. Again, we don't know the exact circumstances and it seems they succeeded in defeating most and escaping.

Where exactly is it implied that they defeated them in any form? They cowed Sidious until he was grievously wounded and then Droga came and saved him, taking him back to Imperial Center where he was placed within a bacta tank to recover. Quite literally all that is stated.

The fact that there's far less spirits opposing Sheev in DE and also the fact that he can ward them off in a near-death state? Sure, Sidious was injured but that doesn't in any way denote the idea that he was fighting back against them, and this is especially supported by the fact that Droga was apparently enough to ward them off completely so they can escape.

Luke won his confrontation with Caedus, Palpatine lost his confrontation with 1000's of undead zombie/pirate types possed by lesser spirits.

This puts Palpatine directly below Will turner from Pirates of the Carribian.

We have no idea how many spirits even attacked him though. Furthermore, them pressing down on him could quite simply be them asking him to join them in Vader's place. As far as Droga is considered, he only ever stays with the Emperor's ship so I imagine he arrived after the fact. The reason I say that is because spirits don't retain their Force reserves, attacking Sidious so viciously was probably all they could muster so they left him in an injured state. In DEII that was the exception to the rule because Palpatine was actually dying.

Not fact, but it's certainly the most plausible string of events as I see it.

Originally posted by ziggtard
Luke won his confrontation with Caedus, Palpatine lost his confrontation with 1000's of undead zombie/pirate types possed by lesser spirits.

This puts Palpatine directly below Will turner from Pirates of the Carribian.

Damn. That reminds me, Kun fights exactly that before he enters the Tombs and faces the Tomb Beasts. Thanks.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Oh, mi lord. Your presence gives me new found strength in our revered master, Sheev Palpatine, blessed his name be, thank you. Help us rid ourselves of this Ragnos insurrectionists.

👍

Originally posted by Azronger
Ironic, but it's true. For once you did something productive with your life and ennobled Sheev in the eyes of this boards' members by exhorting me to do some affixed inquiry. Your benefaction to Sheevism has been most effiacacious

Ennobled Sheev by allowing you to post a supposed feat that Jedi Kun -with his connection to the Force blocked by Nadd's spirit- actually accomplished prior to 'slaughtering' dozens of the far more dangerous tomb beasts.

Such a great boon for Sheev.

Kek. RIP Sheev

What a pathetic liar. Kun was just beginning to be attacked, and begged Nadd for help right from the onset. Nadd then protected him.

Yeah, because Sheev obliterating thousands of lesser spirits and many greater spirits doesn't completely shit on Kun being overwhelmed right when his battle with the spirits had just begun, and begging for help from Nadd.

As if that is not enough, the great genius is now equating the two feats to mean that Kun>Sheev!

ROFL, is the Sheev anti-brigade made out of mentally challenged fools?

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
What a pathetic liar. Kun was just beginning to be attacked, and begged Nadd for help right from the onset. Nadd then protected him.

Yeah, because Sheev obliterating thousands of lesser spirits and many greater spirits doesn't completely shit on Kun being overwhelmed right when his battle with the spirits had just begun, and begging for help from Nadd.

As if that is not enough, the great genius is now equating the two feats to mean that Kun>Sheev!

ROFL, is the Sheev anti-brigade made out of mentally challenged fools?

You're being trolled, my child.

Originally posted by godemperortrump
Link. You beat him on a Sidious vs Ancient Sith thread?

It was a debate about Banite scaling and the standing of Plagueis and Tenebrous next to the ancient Sith.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16269817#post16269817

Originally posted by Azronger
As soon as he enters, the spirits start pressing on him, and Sheev from the looks of things doesn't give two shits. He starts ordering them around while far from peak condition and they acquiesce to his wishes. The impression I get is that even a handful of these spirits can't do jack to a half-dead Sheev who could barely use his Force abilities lest he further the necrosis and decay of his flesh. Not much else that needs to be said, tbh.
Spirits in that tomb pressed on Palpatine to determine his agenda; sounds like an attempt to probe the mind of the subject. Note that Palpatine's servants are completely unaffected in the same setting.

Secondly, Palpatine's arrogance notwithstanding, he was in no position to make those spirits subservient to his cause; an angry spirit shot back with this statement:

"how can one who has ruled only a few decades command those who held dominion for centuries?"

However, another spirit - out of respect for Palpatine's deep affinity with the Dark Side - convinced the angry spirit to give Palpatine a sign. The angry spirit obliged but left a powerful hint:

"..Or perhaps this child shall be your bright doom."

The angry spirit had foreseen Palpatine's demise....

Originally posted by Azronger
Also, there were apparently thousands of spirits on Korriban whose sole desire was to attack intruders like Palpatine.

Like many cultures, the Sith buried slaves, courtiers, and priests with their honored dead. Like many such belief systems, however, the ancient Sith had firsthand knowledge that the dark side would keep the souls of those crypt keepers trapped with their dead masters. Driven by hatred of those who entombed them and the madness that is existence in the dark side, the relatively weak spirits of thousands of lesser Sith act as protectors for the remains of their superiors.

Unable to exert enough strength to possess the living, these guardian spirits animate the fleshless corpses of various tomb robbers and space pirates that have unintentionally made Korriban their final resting place. A guardian spirit looks for all the world like a walking skeleton.

Millennia of madness in the dark side drive the possessing spirit insane. Therefore, they will not, and cannot, behave as sentient beings. They attack without mercy until they are physically destroyed. Even then, the guardian spirit may jump to another skeleton and rise again. Whatever they may once have been, these guardians now exist my as mindless walking dead, hulking, shambling things that must be destroyed to remove the taint of evil.

Walking dead guardian spirits are little more than shuffling bags of bones animated and filled with malicious intent by the dark side. They are immune to disease, the effects of cold, and the vacuum of space. The spirit energy that drives them is no longer sentient or self-aware, so it is not as susceptible to Force mental abilities. Indeed, they simply continue to obey the last command they received in life by protecting the necropolis from intruders.

The Dark Side Sourcebook

So Palpatine fended off thousands of lesser Sith spirits and an unknown number of greater spirits at once, presumably killed most of them given their lack of appearance upon his second trip to the Valley, and in a horrible condition is able to ward off several of the strongest ones who had held dominion for centuries in their heyday.

That's a pretty great feat for Sheev
On what grounds are you assuming that Palpatine fended off thousands of guardian spirits or so many assaulted him in the first place?

The (shared) information is valid in the context of the entirety of the valley of the Dark Lords, not a single Tomb. It suggests that the "guardian spirits" are too weak to affect living beings on their own and rather utilize corpses to assault them.

You are misreading your own sources.

I don't give a sh*t about the LeGenDary argument above. But just to clarify. Is this seriously the fighting Force that Palpatine lost against ?



Essentially these Spirits become the the Star Wars version of the Udead. Animated corspes made from bone who probably can't use the Force in any capacity - given that even the most powerful spirits usually have to channel their powers through other Force users (people with midi-chlorians). Did Sheev really loose to this:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-31-2017/ZS1JGL.gif


Even if there are ten thousand of them fighting at once. There are concessions to be made. The idea that Palpatine can army-bust, even if his opposition are low level Force users with fleshy bodies, is now null thanks to this example.

Just further proof that Sheev is just empty hype.

The vaunted quote about him mastering every Force power and inventing new ones at will is blatantly contradicted, since he has to go to Korriban and plead for knowledge from the Sith spirits.

And also these Dark Lords clearly haven't gotten the memo that Sheev is supposed to be "the Dark Side's most powerful expression" or however that bullshit quote went.

To them he's just the reigning Sith Lord in a long line full of them, not the speshul uber-powerful demigod his followers masturbate to.

Originally posted by ziggtard
I don't give a sh*t about the LeGenDary argument above.





Um, they should certainly be capable of using the Force after they have taken control of a vessel. The Force flows better through living tissue.



Once more, we don't know in what condition Palpatine was when the fight started. It's an ambiguous feat that can't really be used to establish any limit on his army busting capabilities. On the other hand, peak DE Sidious would lay waste to the entire planet no matter how big an army he's up against. Using this to lowball Sheev is disingenuous.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Just further proof that Sheev is just empty hype.

The vaunted quote about him mastering every Force power and inventing new ones at will is blatantly contradicted, since he has to go to Korriban and plead for knowledge from the Sith spirits.

First of all, the quote states he knew all Jedi powers so how does that contradict him not knowing something about the dark side? Second, Sheev asking the Sith spirits for knowledge doesn't mean they knew something he didn't; it only means just that: Sheev asked them for knowledge. Doesn't rule out the possibility they had nothing new to offer. And third, you apparently have no clue about the timeline of Star Wars; Palpatine's fight with the Sith spirits happened shortly after the Battle of Yavin. The quote about the Emperor knowing all Jedi powers was attributed to Dark Empire Sidious, who is a decade older than A New Hope Sidious.



That's usually what happens to those who're disconnected from society for thousands of years, yeah.

Originally posted by Azronger
Um, they should certainly be capable of using the Force after they have taken control of a vessel. The Force flows better through living tissue.

I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of the words "skeleton", "fleshless corpse" or "shuffling bags of bones".

At least read your own ****ing quotes, Jesus...

Originally posted by Unbowed
I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of the words "skeleton", "fleshless corpse" or "shuffling bags of bones".

At least read your own ****ing quotes, Jesus...

I don't think you quite grasp that bones have bone marrow i.e. living tissue inside the hard exterior.

At least read your ****ing elementary school homework, Jesus...

Originally posted by Azronger
I don't think you quite grasp that bones have bone marrow i.e. living tissue inside the hard exterior.

At least read your ****ing elementary school homework, Jesus...


The bone marrow is not living tissue if it belongs to a corpse of a pirate. Oxygen can not enter the cells of any part of the body when the person is dead.



You could say that about every off panel interaction/fight in the mythos. Most people here, myself included, aren't factoring this in because it's most logical to assume he visited the temples in a normal condition.



DE sids is a different kettle of fish for sure. But a lot of sheev discussion here centres around previous incarnations. This thread included as it features ROTS palps - who's suspodely weaker the 0 BBY palpaitne that visited the Korriban temple.

@Az: do we have any reason to assume that Sheev wasn't operating at full strength when the fight occurred?

Originally posted by slayne
do we have any reason to assume

No.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
What a pathetic liar. Kun was just beginning to be attacked, and begged Nadd for help right from the onset. Nadd then protected him.

Yeah, because Sheev obliterating thousands of lesser spirits and many greater spirits doesn't completely shit on Kun being overwhelmed right when his battle with the spirits had just begun, and begging for help from Nadd.

As if that is not enough, the great genius is now equating the two feats to mean that Kun>Sheev!

ROFL, is the Sheev anti-brigade made out of mentally challenged fools?

It'd be a shame for you if the Audiobook depicted something different.

Sheev never even accomplished that, so you can stop that crap argument right now. More importantly, him being surprised by the dead pirates is quite different from begging Nadd to help him.

I never made that argument, get off the fentanyl.

This is the typical Sheevite response.

Originally posted by ziggtard
The bone marrow is not living tissue if it belongs to a corpse of a pirate. Oxygen can not enter the cells of any part of the body when the person is dead.

Maybe he thinks the bone marrow acts as a "Dark side accumulator", similar to Palpatine himself.

Originally posted by ziggtard
I don't give a sh*t about the LeGenDary argument above.
Don't be a DICK either. Just concentrate on your own arguments.

Originally posted by Azronger

So you don't have a counter to my points? I see.

^^

http://www.thecoli.com/media/hbgay.14651/full?d=1503714863

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
Sheev obliterating thousands of lesser spirits and many greater spirits
https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7btPCcdNniyf0ArS/source.gif

>Specifically stated in his own quote that the spirits are too weak and have to resurrect dead pirates to attack intruders.
>They can use the Force.

Top tier Az logic.

I'll have a response coming soon. Give me a few days

Yeah, AP. Az has a life. Maybe you should try getting one?

Originally posted by MythLord
Az has a life. lmfao

Lemme rephrase that: Az has a life relative to AP?

Ziggy, most of your points are inconsequential to my overall argument here, so I won't waste my time discussing the intricasies of human biology or the minutiae of channelling the Force through inorganic matter - I already spent too much time researching those topics, and concluded that I'd have to do far more if I wished to attain a complete picture, which may very well have resulted in me being wrong and you being right, making all the precious time spent useless.

Even if I happened to be correct, the resulting victory would only have been a superfluous bonus, a cherry on top of the cake; Palpatine slaying thousands of Force wielders by himself would have been inappurtenant to his position at the apex of the pecking order of the Sith Lords, as it is more than anything a feat of stamina - you can only fight so many at a time; you'll just be repeating the same feat of facing a handful at a time over and over again - meaning it cannot be translated to reflect his capabilities as a single combatant. In other words, a feat like that is unquantifiable, and by proxy, unsupportive of Sheev's preeminence among the Lords of the Sith.

As such, I will drop the point for now. Consider that a concession if you will; doesn't matter to me. I rest my case for the time being, but not before leaving you with the facts: the guardian spirits are able to use the Force in a limited capacity. They are unable to affect the living enough to harm them, but are capable of dominating the minds of the Hssiss, a breed of dark side beasts:

"Hssiss are semi-intelligent beasts, corrupted and strengthed by prolonged exposure to the dark side. As creatures of the Force, they have a limited ability to mask theor presence. Hssiss are drawn to suffering and carnage. They must have fed on all the corpses left over from the war here on Korriban. The angry phantoms of the Sith, too weak to influence the sentient, have taken these Hssiss as thralls to their will."

--Kreia
Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Their possession of the skeletons of deceased pirates and other plunderers is also not really "possession" in the descriptive sense of the word: the carcasses have no consciousness, no sentient mind to take control of. They are entirely lifeless shells, no different from rocks or other clutter. Thus, I believe their "possession" is in fact telekinetic rather than telepathic in nature. Obviously this would mean they are able to use telekinesis then, although to a very limited degree. The point being though, that they are not the equivalent of non-Force sensitives. Especially when they can hop onto another body if their current one is destroyed:

They attack without mercy until they are physically destroyed. Even then, the guardian spirit may jump to another skeleton and rise again.

The Dark Side Sourcebook

So Sheev would not be fighting an army of thousands; he would be fighting a never-ending legion the dead who keep coming back over and over, that can't be defeated through convential methods:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579263-8745156553-mGdwo.gif

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579274-7733370159-KreLE.gif

@Azronger

Palpatine was influencing the Imperial forces with Battle Meditation (for the Battle of Endor).

Secondly, Palpatine was drawing power from Byss to fuel his own. It is logical to assume that this strategy facilitated his multi-tasking efforts.

that gif at the end kills me

EDIT: oops, accidental bump, was getting quotes

Originally posted by MythLord
Lemme rephrase that: Az has a life relative to AP? That's better. Mostly because it's a question.

I like Azronger's lack of understanding the context of the following sources he had mentioned in his 'argument'.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@Azronger

Palpatine was influencing the Imperial forces with Battle Meditation (for the Battle of Endor).

Secondly, Palpatine was drawing power from Byss to fuel his own. It is logical to assume that this strategy facilitated his multi-tasking efforts.

1. Palpatine's Byss drain only took place in the vicinity of the planet
2. The Life-Drain did not benefit him with a Force boost. He merely harnessed that lifeforce to prevent the deterioration of his weakened body. Which, evidently, proved to be a failure in long term goals.

3. Palpatine wasn't the one behind the Battle Meditation. It was one of his Admirals - Declann. Only Thrawn assumed it had to be Palpatine.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
3. Palpatine wasn't the one behind the Battle Meditation. It was one of his Admirals - Declann. source?

palpatine was said to be horrifically strong in the force. marka ragnos was strong, i admit, but he cant keep up with sheev.

Originally posted by Sheev
source?

It was described in Heir to the Empire, when Grand Admiral Thrawn explains his own belief regarding the Endor Battle. He thought that Palpatine used that power to such a bad level, taking such close control of the Imperial forces as to make them puppets, almost incapable of fighting on their own when his influence was suddenly removed (the use of battle meditation at Endor was later revealed and attributed to Grand Admiral Nial Declann instead of Palpatine)

Originally posted by Sheev
source?

Declann was involved with the Battle Meditation on Endor according to Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals, but the Emperor obviously takes a large chunk of the credit as well.

Originally posted by Azronger
Declann was involved with the Battle Meditation on Endor according to Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals, but the Emperor obviously takes a large chunk of the credit as well. I've always felt Declann's entry in 'Who's Who' was rather vague/ambiguous in that respect:
https://i.imgur.com/L7BbffF.jpg
Given his rank as a Grand Admiral, 'coordinating the Imperial fleet' could mean any number of things, tbh. /shrug


Either way, the RotJ novelization(a higher form of canon than an Insider article) makes it clear that Palpatine's mere presence was absolutely detrimental to the Empire's cohesion. Once he was killed, the fleet swiftly fell apart:



...Which makes Thrawn's assertion in Heir to the Empire quite valid, tbh:

Well that's because Nail sensed Palpatine's demise, he cut his Battle Meditation to go and check, but on his way the DS exploded.

So really, there isn't any contradiction.

But still, it's not like Palpatine couldn't do it anyway.

To be honest - this doesn't allude to Palpatine making use of Battle meditation. It simply means that with Palpatine's death - his empire fell too. It was Palpatine who kept the Empire whole. It makes sense. And rightfully so.

Think about it. You are at war and your leader suddenly dies in a massive explosion. Of course that you don't know what to do anymore. You are confused and awed.

After all: Palpatine's attention during that time was focused on Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader.



Isn't he a Dark Side Adept?

Didn't Declann's impressive, Force-enhanced skills as a TIE pilot brought him to the attention of Emperor Palpatine's agents?

IIRC, he was taken to Dromund Kaas - where he was educated in the ways of the dark side by the Prophets of the Dark Side.

This fits with the flow of the story, better, in my opinion.
It was his job to make sure they win - not Palpatine's job. As aforementioned - Palpatine's focus was 'focused' somewhere else.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well that's because Nail sensed Palpatine's demise, he cut his Battle Meditation to go and check, but on his way the DS exploded.

So really, there isn't any contradiction.

But still, it's not like Palpatine couldn't do it anyway.

Yeah. Even Exar Kun could pull that off.

what does that have to do with marka ragnos vs. palpatine, nothing, it has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd


Isn't he a Dark Side Adept?

Didn't Declann's impressive, Force-enhanced skills as a TIE pilot brought him to the attention of Emperor Palpatine's agents?

IIRC, he was taken to Dromund Kaas - where he was educated in the ways of the dark side by the Prophets of the Dark Side.

Also yes, to all of that.

So - he is a BM master.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So - he is a BM master.

Basically.

🤟🏻👌🏻

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well that's because Nail sensed Palpatine's demise, he cut his Battle Meditation to go and check, but on his way the DS exploded. Where was it explicitly stated that Declann was using BM at Endor? Because it definitely wasn't stated in the 'Who's Who' article people have cited -- that article is ambiguous at best.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So really, there isn't any contradiction.

But still, it's not like Palpatine couldn't do it anyway. It is indeed a contradiction.

The RotJ novelization --a higher form of canon-- states that when Palpatine(and Palpatine alone) died, the fleet crumbled as a direct corollary.

"For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected - this was simply where it led.
Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear."

And as mentioned: this fact was later corroborated by Thrawn in Heir to the Empire, so yeah.

That said, IF an explicit quote for Declann exists, it is superseded by higher canonicity anyway.

Where was it stated that Palpatine used Battle Meditation, really?

That fragment merely says that Palpatine's death was the downfall of his empire. That's all. And rightfully so.

Thrawn's words were there to introduce the notion of what Battle Meditation is. That doesn't mean it happened that way.

Palpatine was a lot focused on Luke and Vader and couldn't afford to use Battle Meditation because his attention was directed towards someone else.

Originally posted by Galan007
Where was it explicitly stated that Declann was using BM at Endor? Because it definitely wasn't stated in the 'Who's Who' article people have cited -- that article is ambiguous at best.

It is indeed a contradiction.

The RotJ novelization --a higher form of canon-- states that when Palpatine(and Palpatine alone) died, the fleet crumbled as a direct corollary.

"For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected - this was simply where it led.
Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear."

And as mentioned: this fact was later corroborated by Thrawn in Heir to the Empire, so yeah.

That said, IF an explicit quote for Declann exists, it is superseded by higher canonicity anyway.

Yeah when Palpatine died, Nial had sensed it. He thus broke his concentration with the fleet to go see, this is what caused the fleet to go into disarray.

Palpatine's death still did break the fleet.

I mean it says he can meld the units under his command into a formidable fighting force.

Seems a lot like BM to me.

But even if you don't take it as BM and Nial was still coordinating the fleet from the DS. The death of Palpatine still broke the fleet since Nial left his position which would cause the fleet to go into disarray before regaining control.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Where was it stated that Palpatine used Battle Meditation, really?


https://i.imgur.com/DiJhKMc.jpg
-Dark Empire Sourcebook


https://i.imgur.com/EP2rvlG.jpg
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah when Palpatine died, Nial had sensed it. He thus broke his concentration with the fleet to go see, this is what caused the fleet to go into disarray.

Palpatine's death still did break the fleet.

I mean it says he can meld the units under his command into a formidable fighting force.

Seems a lot like BM to me.

But even if you don't take it as BM and Nial was still coordinating the fleet from the DS. The death of Palpatine still broke the fleet since Nial left his position which would cause the fleet to go into disarray before regaining control. That seems like a bit of a twist to me.

Per the RotJ novelization: Palpatine died, and the whole Imperial fleet went into a state of complete disarray as a direct corollary -- HIS presence/power(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line... And a few other sources confirm the same basic thing.

Conversely, in a lesser form of canon Declann was ambiguously stated to be "coordinating the Imperial fleet" from aboard to DSII -- but that doesn't necessarily mean he *must* have been using BM to do so. He was, after all, one of four Grand Admirals stationed on the DSII... Helping 'coordinate' its naval forces literally defines his job description(force-sensetive or not.)

Sure, that statement *could* imply that Declann was using Battle Meditation to boost the Imperial fleet, OR it could imply that he was simply doing the job of a Grand Admiral, and helping manage the vast fleet he commanded from a remote location. As an example: Thrawn is able to 'coordinate' the entire 7th Fleet from aboard the Chimaera, but he doesn't need the force to do so. /shrug

That's why I asked if you(or anyone else) knows of a different source that *explicitly* states Declann was using BM to bolster the fleet at Endor -- because the aforementioned excerpt isn't clear either way, tbh.

I mean, even Declann's bio from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia(which was released years AFTER that 'Who's Who' article) doesn't mention anything at all about Declann using BM at the battle of Endor:

https://i.imgur.com/86w67E1.jpg

srug

Originally posted by Galan007
That seems like a bit of a twist to me.

Per the RotJ novelization: Palpatine died, and the whole Imperial fleet went into a state of complete disarray as a direct corollary -- HIS presence/power(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line... And a few other sources confirm the same basic thing.

Conversely, in a lesser form of canon Declann was ambiguously stated to be "coordinating the Imperial fleet" from aboard to DSII -- but that doesn't necessarily mean he *must* have been using BM to do so. He was, after all, one of four Grand Admirals stationed on the DSII... Helping 'coordinate' its naval forces literally defines his job description(force-sensetive or not.)

Sure, that statement *could* imply that Declann was using Battle Meditation to boost the Imperial fleet, OR it could imply that he was simply doing the job of a Grand Admiral, and helping manage the vast fleet he commanded from a remote location. As an example: Thrawn is able to 'coordinate' the entire 7th Fleet from aboard the Chimaera, but he doesn't need the force to do so. /shrug

That's why I asked if you(or anyone else) knows of a different source that *explicitly* states Declann was using BM to bolster the fleet at Endor -- because the aforementioned excerpt isn't clear either way, tbh.

I mean, even Declann's bio from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia(which was released years AFTER that 'Who's Who' article) doesn't mention anything at all about Declann using BM at the battle of Endor:

https://i.imgur.com/86w67E1.jpg

srug

I'll agree it's not exactly clear in whats stated the Nial uses, but the description sounds like BM.

Plus according to the author Dan Wallace, he says this.



So he says Declann is a Force using Grand Admiral and has Jedi Battle Meditation.

As for him using it at Endor? Sure, I can agree that there isn't anything stated he did use it at Endor...but it seems a little odd he wouldn't since he can.

But since I can't seem to find it that he used it at Endor, I can drop it. But he does have BM.

Not denying that Declann could use Battle Meditation to some degree. Just looking for explicit evidence of him using that ability at Endor specifically, because "coordinating the Imperial fleet" isn't necessarily indicative of such, imo(as mentioned, that could imply any number of things)... And of course, that is still secondary to other sources of greater canonicity stating that Palpatine's influence alone was holding the fleet together.

I'm starting to think it might be a myth, tbh... Wouldn't be the first time Wookiepedia didn't have their shit straight *cough*Qui-Gon=Mace*cough*

Why was this bumped

Ask Nadd.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not denying that Declann could use Battle Meditation to some degree. Just looking for explicit evidence of him using that ability at Endor specifically, because "coordinating the Imperial fleet" isn't necessarily indicative of such, imo(as mentioned, that could imply any number of things)... And of course, that is still secondary to other sources of greater canonicity stating that Palpatine's influence alone was holding the fleet together.

I'm starting to think it might be a myth, tbh... Wouldn't be the first time Wookiepedia didn't have their shit straight *cough*Qui-Gon=Mace*cough*

I can agree to that I guess, I've looked through every source but can't find mention of any instance akin to Endor and Nial.

It isn't necessarily, but it would be strange he wouldn't be using it if he could. But neither here nor there, so I'm glad to drop it anyway...plus it's a tad bit going off topic here.

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.imgur.com/DiJhKMc.jpg
-Dark Empire Sourcebook


https://i.imgur.com/EP2rvlG.jpg
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The Dark Force Rising Sourcebook also says he used BM a lot.

i believe that i have read that in my studies, it is confirmed

Originally posted by Azronger
The Dark Force Rising Sourcebook also says he used BM a lot. Indeed.

https://i.imgur.com/W06iWis.jpg
-Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook


https://i.imgur.com/SBF963J.jpg
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook


https://i.imgur.com/a6GP0Lp.jpg
-Dark Force Rising Sourcebook

But the dark side BM requires the user to break people's wills. And during that Battle on Endor - Palpatine was not focusing his attention on the fleets.
He was a Sith BM user but that doesn't mean he used it during the Endor Battle. All those sources state he knew Sith BM and that his dark will kept the empire whole.
The Empire was not the Endor Battle - you know.

So, he may have used it(definitely) but not during the Endor Battle.

yes, he may have not, but i do not see how this has anything to do with the forum topic.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
But the dark side BM requires the user to break people's wills. And during that Battle on Endor - Palpatine was not focusing his attention on the fleets.
He was a Sith BM user but that doesn't mean he used it during the Endor Battle. All those sources state he knew Sith BM and that his dark will kept the empire whole.
The Empire was not the Endor Battle - you know.

So, he may have used it(definitely) but not during the Endor Battle. That's an...interesting way to entirely ignore the abundance of evidence at hand, lol.


It was explicitly stated that Palpatine's death sent the entire Imperial fleet at Endor into a state of complete disarray as a DIRECT corollary. When Palpatine's presence/power/will(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line, the entire system began to crumble:

https://i.imgur.com/JniPV1v.jpg
-RotJ




And several other sources corroborate the fact that Palpatine's presence/power/will alone was not only holding the Endor fleet together... But holding the entire damn Empire together as well:


https://i.imgur.com/eyB6tcI.jpg
-Dark Empire Sourcebook


____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/00AUu0c.jpg
-Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/b3AJg8F.jpg
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/wUzSaSZ.jpg
-Dark Force Rising Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/fBNVMZY.jpg
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia




Moreover, per the above evidence we can infer that Thrawn's assertions about Palpatine using BM at Endor were irrefutably factual:

https://i.imgur.com/yJFcsPe.jpg
-Heir to the Empire



So yeeeeah...





Anywho, I think I've more than made my point here, so this will be my last post on the subject.

Good day.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's an...interesting way to entirely ignore the abundance of evidence at hand, lol.


It was explicitly stated that Palpatine's death sent the entire Imperial fleet at Endor into a state of complete disarray as a DIRECT corollary. When Palpatine's presence/power/will(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line, the entire system began to crumble:

https://i.imgur.com/JniPV1v.jpg
-RotJ




And several other sources corroborate the fact that Palpatine's presence/power/will alone was not only holding the Endor fleet together... But holding the entire damn Empire together as well:


https://i.imgur.com/eyB6tcI.jpg
-Dark Empire Sourcebook


____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/00AUu0c.jpg
-Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/b3AJg8F.jpg
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/wUzSaSZ.jpg
-Dark Force Rising Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/fBNVMZY.jpg
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia




Moreover, per the above evidence we can infer that Thrawn's assertions about Palpatine using BM at Endor were irrefutably factual:

https://i.imgur.com/yJFcsPe.jpg
-Heir to the Empire



So yeeeeah...





Anywho, I think I've more than made my point here, so this will be my last post on the subject.

Good day.

But this is not at all what it says.

Some sources say that he was the 'will' that held the Empire from falling apart. Other sources state that he made use of the Battle Meditation when they were at war.

I am talking about the Battle at Endor.

There is no definitive statement that he was doing that. Why?

Because Palpatine's focus was drawn to Luke and Vader when they both came in his room.

I accept that he is a Battle Meditation user. I merely said he didn't use that ability during the Battle at Endor. That's all.

There is only one proof: and that's Thrawn's. Who was not present during the Battle at Endor. So he sought a perfect excuse to justify their defeat at the hands of the Rebels when Palpatine was defeated/killed.

And my last point is:
Are Palpatine's imperial forces so poorly-skilled that he has to BM'ing them?

I mean - that tells a lot about his empire if that's the case.

However, this was only in regarding to Azronger's Sidious' Battle Meditation wank being used during ROTJ(Battle at Endor).

Originally posted by Galan007
That's an...interesting way to entirely ignore the abundance of evidence at hand, lol.


It was explicitly stated that Palpatine's death sent the entire Imperial fleet at Endor into a state of complete disarray as a DIRECT corollary. When Palpatine's presence/power/will(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line, the entire system began to crumble:

https://i.imgur.com/JniPV1v.jpg
-RotJ




And several other sources corroborate the fact that Palpatine's presence/power/will alone was not only holding the Endor fleet together... But holding the entire damn Empire together as well:


https://i.imgur.com/eyB6tcI.jpg
-Dark Empire Sourcebook


____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/00AUu0c.jpg
-Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/b3AJg8F.jpg
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/wUzSaSZ.jpg
-Dark Force Rising Sourcebook

____________________________________________


https://i.imgur.com/fBNVMZY.jpg
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia




Moreover, per the above evidence we can infer that Thrawn's assertions about Palpatine using BM at Endor were irrefutably factual:

https://i.imgur.com/yJFcsPe.jpg
-Heir to the Empire



So yeeeeah...





Anywho, I think I've more than made my point here, so this will be my last post on the subject.

Good day. It's one thing to own him, but did you really have to destroy him Galan?

Well done sir.

Freedumb nadd getting one-shot, per the norm.

He one-shot nothing. For your knowledge, genius. Battle Meditation was not even a concept during the publication of the ROTJ novel. That was not at all the authorial intent.

Really - you want to tell me that Palpatine's empire is made up of inept imperial soldiers and high-ranking individuals who constantly need to be BM'd by Palpatine?

No. The sources merely state that Palpatine was a BM and seldomly he used that ability. But it was not during the Battle of Endor. Because his focus was 'focused' on Luke and Vader aboard the Death Star.
You fail to realize that the BM concept appeared in Heir to the Empire. And there the concept of BM was presented through Thrawn's suspecting of Palpatine using it at the Battle of Endor. That's all. That's why it was only a dialogue and not outrightly confirmed in HTE, because that was not the authorial intent. It made us of that scene to explain the BM concept because that scene's been edged on people's brains.

Have a good day.

Nadd do you think Ragnos destroys Palpatine and if so, why?

Sourcebooks are filled, sometimes, with inconsistencies. If you really want to accept their validity - so be it.

But you should know - that these sourcebooks are merely interpretation of the events of the authors who write them in books.

If you really think that Palpatine BM'd his forces during the Battle on Endor.
Then, why the heck didn't they win the battle back then already?

We know that BM increases your army's efficiency and your enemy's inefficiency instantly.
If Palpatine really used it during the Battle of Endor - the Empire should have already won the war.

But do what you want, I don't care. It's up to you if you choose the events(books) over the interpretation of events(sourcebooks) or the other way around.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Nadd do you think Ragnos destroys Palpatine and if so, why?

It doesn't matter. But at least we know that Palpatine's empire is so incompetent that they need to be frequently BM'd by Palpatine.

At least the ancient Sith didn't have that problem with their empires.

Sadow literally used a meditation sphere to do exactly that during the GHW. . .