Marka Ragnos vs. Emperor Palpatine

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The Merchant
Palpatine is chilling on Naboo a week after ROTS wheb suddenly Ragnos appears in flesh and blood! Who wins?

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All out.

cs_zoltan
You can't be serious.

UCanShootMyNova
https://i.imgur.com/yQKApZY.jpg?1

Trocity
I thought this was another necro'd thread from 2005.

godemperortrump
Prolly Ragnos

AncientPower
Ragnos deadlifts Terentateks, does Sheev even lift bruh?

BlueTiger1144
Palpatine ends him in a single attack.

AncientPower
Funny how Palpatine was utterly overwhelmed by Ragnos and a few other, lesser spirits and nearly died. Requiring a bacta tank to heal himself no less.

Azronger
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
Palpatine ends him in a single attack.

BlueTiger1144
Originally posted by Azronger


Is AP a retard?

AncientPower
That's the best the Sheev brigade has to offer? As disappointing as usual.

Azronger
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
Is AP a retard?

Probably. He/she/it is certainly a dishonest liar and a whiny, condescending airhead, desperate to knock Sheev off of his dark throne, but too stupid to understand it'll never happen.

AncientPower
1.Copying Ant from four years ago is just sad. erm

2.Dishonest liar. You might want to find out what 'redundant' means. laughing out loud

3.You realise there are at least ten people who make a most powerful Star Wars list before Sheev even gets an honorary mention, right?

4.At least I'm not an absolutely horrifically poor rip-off of a Gideon sock. thumb up

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
Funny how Palpatine was utterly overwhelmed by Ragnos and a few other, lesser spirits and nearly died. Requiring a bacta tank to heal himself no less.

1. This was well before TPM, even.
2. We have no idea who the spirits even were. laughing out loud

Do you ever get tired of being so dishonest?

AncientPower
1.What are you talking about? It takes place between ESB & ROTJ. Durga saves him and Vader arrives to check up on him whilst he's in the bacta tank.

2.Palpatine directly debunks Plagueis claiming that his vision of Ragnos on Korriban was merely in his head with the admittance that those spirits nearly killed him. It's in Book of Sith. Besides that, all other known Sith spirits were either already incapacitated or elsewhere. Ragnos is the only one of significance even on Korriban. So it's him with aid or Palps got shitstomped by fodder spirits, you pick.

Perhaps before claiming dishonesty you could actually inquire as to what I'm referring? erm

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
1.What are you talking about? It takes place between ESB & ROTJ. Durga saves him and Vader arrives to check up on him whilst he's in the bacta tank.

Where was this noted, exactly? All we know is long, long ago before Sheev started commenting in BoS, he was nearly killed by spirits.

Originally posted by AncientPower
2.Palpatine directly debunks Plagueis claiming that his vision of Ragnos on Korriban was merely in his head with the admittance that those spirits nearly killed him. It's in Book of Sith. Besides that, all other known Sith spirits were either already incapacitated or elsewhere. Ragnos is the only one of significance even on Korriban. So it's him with aid or Palps got shitstomped by fodder spirits, you pick.

Perhaps before claiming dishonesty you could actually inquire as to what I'm referring? erm

Palpatine just says that Sith Spirits are quite real; he never says he saw Ragnos amongst them:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HqDCGzzjhhQ/WfW7VzkWLwI/AAAAAAAAGfQ/OBi0GHYn0wwKK6ZUPwjnDXVRUxyeurEgQCL0BGAYYCw/h431/2017-10-29.png

Also, if you actually read the paragraph on which Palpatine was commenting, it's just Plagueis' thoughts on spirits in general, not just Marka Ragnos. The Ragnos dream comes after Sheev's comments.
Basically, you have no proof what spirits attacked Sidious, you have no correlation between them and Ragnos and you have no way of knowing whether they are fodder or not. Hell, them "nearly killing" Sidious doesn't mean they shitstomped him; it means they tried to kill him, came close to it but Sidious pulled out ahead.

AncientPower
1.The Emperor's Pawns issue of Star Wars Gamer.

2.Given Plagueis is referring directly to his trip to Korriban, and furthermore that Plagueis' vision of Ragnos is precisely the reason he's 'unconvinced'. That's a moot point.

3.They subdued him entirely and Jeng Droga had to personally take him back to Imperial Center so he could heal inside a bacta tank. Pretty sure if they wanted to kill him, he'd have died.

MythLord
1. Apparently Droga was enough to rescue Palpatine from the assault of those spirits, and this written at a time where Sheev has apparently died "many times" and was yet to earn the title of the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith. Regardless, all we know is Palpatine was injured and needed healing, Jeng Droga was enough to save him and the Sith spirits were angry with Palpatine because he wanted knowledge of everlasting life. Knowledge he later gained, I might add. And later on a hindered DE Sidious fought back against the same Sith Spirits who were pressing upon him... Yeah, they didn't subdue him entirely. Also, again, there's no specific timeframe given.

2. It doesn't matter because Sidious was commenting about Plagueis' statements of Sith Spirits in general. Marka is absolutely irrelevant to that. For a boastful ****, you really can't read properly or you just stretch these quotes beyond belief.

AncientPower
It took place in 0ABY, as far as I understand.

Well yes, Droga's arrival drove them off but then again it's stated that they overwhelmed Palpatine. So regardless, they attacked him and he required saving before being placed in a bacta tank. He didn't just heal himself through the Force, so evidently it was serious.

Not at all, I take things at face value and know for a fact that Ragnos was head of the ancient Sith spirits. Nadd included.

godemperortrump
I'm still hesitant to put Ragnos above Nadd. Their spirit feats definitely go Freedon's way, but Marka has that quote...

BlueTiger1144
Nowhere is it stated that they overwhelmed Palpatine.

ziggtard
Originally posted by AncientPower
as far as I understand.



In AP we trust.

Azronger
laughing out loud

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
It took place in 0ABY, as far as I understand.

First you claim it's between ESB and RotJ, now circa-ANH?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Well yes, Droga's arrival drove them off but then again it's stated that they overwhelmed Palpatine. So regardless, they attacked him and he required saving before being placed in a bacta tank. He didn't just heal himself through the Force, so evidently it was serious.

We know they attacked and injured him. We don't know when, how and under what circumstances. It could've been a cheapshot and if Droga -- a relative scrub who's sub Mara Jade, Jerec and Sedriss -- is enough to help Sheev drive them off then evidently it's fairly sketchy.

This is also assuming there is only one instances where Sith spirits attacked Sidious; the one in BoS and Gamer might not even be the same instance, since as per DE we know Sidious has tussled with the spirits of Korriban in the past.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not at all, I take things at face value and know for a fact that Ragnos was head of the ancient Sith spirits. Nadd included.

Taking things at face value isn't always a good thing, and Marka might've led some fodder spirits back in Kun's time, but we don't know if he's leading them during Sidious' time. The spirits that attacked Sheev in DE certainly had a stunning lack of Ragnos.

AncientPower
Because it's vague as hell, it's post-Death Star I and pre-Death Star II, if someone had the Comics Companion then that might clear it up.

I am not arguing that there isn't some context, but I'm also struggling to believe that Sidious of all Sith would be taken so easily off-guard. Especially given that he knows full well how dangerous they are.

If you can name any other 'ancient' Sith spirits who were actively on Korriban at this time, besides Marka Ragnos, and more powerful than he is, then I'd agree. I just find it exceedingly coincidental that he manages to comment on that exact part of the text with that event. (It's never mentioned that he went there more than twice by DE.)

Zenwolf
Ok it was shortly after the Battle of Yavin where the whole thing with Palps, Droga and the Sith spirits.

Trocity
Oh snap, the Sith Spirits had cowed the so-called most powerful Sith Lord of all time.


Sheev brigade scrambling for damage control.

slayne
They made Sheev their b*tch, lmfao.

Fated Xtasy
The secret long kept by the Sheevites....revealed....decades of hard work...

Time to switch to the TOR brigade.

Big Gerald
Is that quote canon? Also, how many of them did it take to subdue him?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The secret long kept by the Sheevites....revealed....decades of hard work...

Time to switch to the TOR brigade.

Nah, Droga's rescue of Sheev has been public knowledge since the Antediluvian days. It was referenced again in Book of Sith.

It's just that no one really cared. As Myth pointed out, the details are unknown.

An ironic piece of trivia: the authors of both sources would later go on to call Palpatine the most powerful Sith Lord ever in Who's Who: imperial Grand Admirals and multiple times in the Book of Sith endnotes.

ziggtard
Looks like the idea that those two accolades were in reference to polictal / military capital is basically confirmed given that those authors had Sheev getting stomped by spirits. laughing

godemperortrump
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
The secret long kept by the Sheevites....revealed....decades of hard work...

Time to switch to the TOR brigade.

smile

godemperortrump
Sheevites dying off, Gideon panicking. KMC is alive again

The_Tempest
I'm in the throes of abject terror, indeed.

The Merchant
Will Ragnos reign as KMC's premier Sith once more?! :O

godemperortrump
Originally posted by The Merchant
Will Ragnos reign as KMC's premier Sith once more?! :O
Behind Kun, yes

darthbane77
Palpatine wins, but it's not easily. Ragnos is more than powerful enough to give Palpatine a decent fight.

The Merchant
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Behind Kun, yes

That calls for another thread.

AncientPower
This might be my all-time greatest reveal.

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
I am not arguing that there isn't some context, but I'm also struggling to believe that Sidious of all Sith would be taken so easily off-guard. Especially given that he knows full well how dangerous they are.

Sidious has been cheapshotted a great deal of times, lmfao. I mean, just look at his death at the hands of Vader.
The fact that a hindered, near-death DE Sidious managed to ward off these same spirits and that Droga was enough aid to fend them off suggests there was certainly some added context of how the spirits did it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If you can name any other 'ancient' Sith spirits who were actively on Korriban at this time, besides Marka Ragnos, and more powerful than he is, then I'd agree. I just find it exceedingly coincidental that he manages to comment on that exact part of the text with that event. (It's never mentioned that he went there more than twice by DE.)

He doesn't comment on that part of the text, and I also don't really need to name any Sith because it's equally valid that said Sith would be in place of Ragnos, leading the Spirits. The ones we see in DE -- implied to be the same ones as before -- don't feature Marka in them.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by MythLord
Sidious has been cheapshotted a great deal of times, lmfao. I mean, just look at his death at the hands of Vader.
Nothing implies that the spirits cheap-shotted Palpatine.

Originally posted by MythLord
The fact that a hindered, near-death DE Sidious managed to ward off these same spirits and that Droga was enough aid to fend them off suggests there was certainly some added context of how the spirits did it.
Nothing implies that the spirits attempted to kill Droga. They only assaulted Palpatine per the description.

Why they assaulted him? Because Palpatine somehow offended them.

Also, where is the evidence that the spirits attempted to kill Palpatine as of Dark Empire, again? I didn't come across such evidence in my readings.

When Palpatine (DE) communed with the spirits on Korriban, they showed him the vision of Leia Solo's child. He was the key to his survival.

The Merchant
The text says that the Spirits pressed upon Palpatine in Empires End, though when I read it I interpreted it that metaphorically not that they literally attacked him or anything.

MythLord
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nothing implies that the spirits cheap-shotted Palpatine.

It would honestly only make sense if they did. Like I said, the circumstances are unclear.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nothing implies that the spirits attempted to kill Droga. They only assaulted Palpatine per the description.

Why they assaulted him? Because Palpatine somehow offended them.

Yes, I'm sure Droga going in lightsaber-blazing to protect his master would definitely not cause the spirits to assault him or anything...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, where is the evidence that the spirits attempted to kill Palpatine as of Dark Empire, again? I didn't come across such evidence in my readings.

When Palpatine (DE) communed with the spirits on Korriban, they showed him the vision of Leia Solo's child. He was the key to his survival.

They were pressing upon him in Empire's End, trying to break him and he ended up warding them off.

Azronger
https://i.imgur.com/Zd51rpk.jpg

Yeah, not sure what the fuss is about. We don't know:

What Palpatine's condition was
How many spirits there were
How long the fight lasted
...and so on.

And we certainly don't see any indication of any "stomping" anywhere. And indeed, if Jeng Droga is enough to rescue Palpatine there, it evokes skepticism regarding the legitimacy of the ancient Sith's newly-argued standing next to the Emperor, at least on an individual level. Collectively, sure, they can pose a threat, as the above clearly indicates, but once more, we don't know how many spirits there were, nor do we know how long the fight lasted, etc. It's for all intents and purposes, unquantifiable.

Not to mention in Empire's End, Palpatine didn't seem very concerned about dying when he revisited the Valley of the Dark Lords:

https://i.imgur.com/smRJtUd.png

https://i.imgur.com/Hwn183w.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qM0wiiD.jpg

As soon as he enters, the spirits start pressing on him, and Sheev from the looks of things doesn't give two shits. He starts ordering them around while far from peak condition and they acquiesce to his wishes. The impression I get is that even a handful of these spirits can't do jack to a half-dead Sheev who could barely use his Force abilities lest he further the necrosis and decay of his flesh. Not much else that needs to be said, tbh.

Azronger
Also, there were apparently thousands of spirits on Korriban whose sole desire was to attack intruders like Palpatine.

Like many cultures, the Sith buried slaves, courtiers, and priests with their honored dead. Like many such belief systems, however, the ancient Sith had firsthand knowledge that the dark side would keep the souls of those crypt keepers trapped with their dead masters. Driven by hatred of those who entombed them and the madness that is existence in the dark side, the relatively weak spirits of thousands of lesser Sith act as protectors for the remains of their superiors.

Unable to exert enough strength to possess the living, these guardian spirits animate the fleshless corpses of various tomb robbers and space pirates that have unintentionally made Korriban their final resting place. A guardian spirit looks for all the world like a walking skeleton.

Millennia of madness in the dark side drive the possessing spirit insane. Therefore, they will not, and cannot, behave as sentient beings. They attack without mercy until they are physically destroyed. Even then, the guardian spirit may jump to another skeleton and rise again. Whatever they may once have been, these guardians now exist my as mindless walking dead, hulking, shambling things that must be destroyed to remove the taint of evil.

Walking dead guardian spirits are little more than shuffling bags of bones animated and filled with malicious intent by the dark side. They are immune to disease, the effects of cold, and the vacuum of space. The spirit energy that drives them is no longer sentient or self-aware, so it is not as susceptible to Force mental abilities. Indeed, they simply continue to obey the last command they received in life by protecting the necropolis from intruders.

The Dark Side Sourcebook

So Palpatine fended off thousands of lesser Sith spirits and an unknown number of greater spirits at once, presumably killed most of them given their lack of appearance upon his second trip to the Valley, and in a horrible condition is able to ward off several of the strongest ones who had held dominion for centuries in their heyday.

That's a pretty great feat for Sheev thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
Just raised Sidious. Thx. thumb up

Zenwolf
Good for Droga really.

BlueTiger1144
Not at all. A lot better for Sidious. Seems this new attempt backfired.

Azronger
Originally posted by AncientPower
This might be my all-time greatest reveal.

Ironic, but it's true. For once you did something productive with your life and ennobled Sheev in the eyes of this boards' members by exhorting me to do some affixed inquiry. Your benefaction to Sheevism has been most effiacacious thumb up

The Merchant
Nice Azronger.

ziggtard
It is confirmed. Sheev can not army bust.

Azronger
Originally posted by ziggtard
It is confirmed. Sheev can not army bust.

Lawl, a petty loss. Besides, this is ANH Sheev, a decade before DE.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Good for Droga really. Droga > Ragnos thumb up

Azronger
Droga was also personally trained and had his powers amped by Sheev. So if one wishes to see this as a feat for Droga, it's ineluctably a feat for Sheev too, no matter which way you spin it.

The Merchant
Azronger is The true successor to Tempest.

Azronger
Originally posted by The Merchant
Azronger is The true successor to Tempest.

Yup. Tempest proclaimed me his inheritor a while back. I will be the new Grand Sheevite after him.

AncientPower
So Sidious failed where the Exile, Exar Kun and others have succeeded? Damn, pretty terrible for the most powerful Sith of all-time.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, Droga's rescue of Sheev has been public knowledge since the Antediluvian days. It was referenced again in Book of Sith.

It's just that no one really cared. As Myth pointed out, the details are unknown.

An ironic piece of trivia: the authors of both sources would later go on to call Palpatine the most powerful Sith Lord ever in Who's Who: imperial Grand Admirals and multiple times in the Book of Sith endnotes.

Oh, mi lord. Your presence gives me new found strength in our revered master, Sheev Palpatine, blessed his name be, thank you. Help us rid ourselves of this Ragnos insurrectionists.

godemperortrump
Originally posted by Azronger
Yup. Tempest proclaimed me his inheritor a while back. I will be the new Grand Sheevite after him.
All you need to do to be Temp's equal is constantly get a spanking from Nai. I think you can do that

Trocity
Well played by Azronger.


KMC Thread #14672: Sheev Brigade Strikes Back.

AncientPower
He really hasn't, that DS sourcebook quote would apply to the Exile and Exar Kun too. It's a pretty desperate attempt on his part.

BlueTiger1144
Azronger smashed house there. So much for the lowballers.

Azronger
Originally posted by godemperortrump
All you need to do to be Temp's equal is constantly get a spanking from Nai. I think you can do that

Funny how it was Nai who got a spanking from me the last time we had a debate.

Azronger
Oh, and AP, care to show us where Meetra and Kun destroyed thousands of Sith spirits on their own?

godemperortrump
Originally posted by Azronger
Funny how it was Nai who got a spanking from me the last time we had a debate.
Link. You beat him on a Sidious vs Ancient Sith thread?

AncientPower
Care to show me where Sheev did?

Meetra had to kill dozens of Hssiss, who were manifestations of Sith spirits, as she traversed the Valley of the Dark Lords. She faced even worse than that in the Tomb of Ludo Kressh.

Exar Kun slaughtered the dozens of tomb beasts who were commanded by Sith spirits as he entered the super special Sith Council hall that only ever appeared one other time.

Oh and just so you know, Korriban even as of Bane's time is nowhere near as potent as it had been when the two of them traversed it. Even more so for the Exile given that Revan a few years earlier slaughtered an entire academy of Sith. Those who remained massacred each other, something Traya explicitly warns her of.

You're trying to make it sound special, it's actually pathetic.

MythLord
Are you equating murdering beasts of Korriban as being on par with destroying thousands of spirits and later warding off multiple of them in a near-death state?

BTW, yeah, this isn't really the most impressive feat for Sheev, but it's not a bad showing either like you originally tried to play it off. Your backpedaling is outstanding, tbh.

AncientPower
He hasn't even proven Sidious fought those spirits. He took a generic statement from the DS: Sourcebook about Korriban and implied that Sheev destroyed them all. laughing out loud

But no, they aren't mere beasts. They are the spirits made manifest.

Haschwalth
Why do people believe, force power weakens in near death states.
It shouldn't have any affect, unless their mental state is screwed.

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
He hasn't even proven Sidious fought those spirits. He took a generic statement from the DS: Sourcebook about Korriban and implied that Sheev destroyed them all. laughing out loud

But no, they aren't mere beasts. They are the spirits made manifest.

Well, Sidious and Droga obviously did something pretty damaging to them. Az's point stands.

AncientPower
They did well enough to escape and Sidious was still so badly injured he required a bacta tank to recover from the damage.

My point stands, his is left flailing like a lobotomy patient.

I do concede that Ragnos may not be involved though so I don't see why you care.

MythLord
Luke recquired a bacta tank after his fight with Caedus. He still stomped. Again, we don't know the exact circumstances and it seems they succeeded in defeating most and escaping.

AncientPower
Where exactly is it implied that they defeated them in any form? They cowed Sidious until he was grievously wounded and then Droga came and saved him, taking him back to Imperial Center where he was placed within a bacta tank to recover. Quite literally all that is stated.

MythLord
The fact that there's far less spirits opposing Sheev in DE and also the fact that he can ward them off in a near-death state? Sure, Sidious was injured but that doesn't in any way denote the idea that he was fighting back against them, and this is especially supported by the fact that Droga was apparently enough to ward them off completely so they can escape.

ziggtard
Luke won his confrontation with Caedus, Palpatine lost his confrontation with 1000's of undead zombie/pirate types possed by lesser spirits.

This puts Palpatine directly below Will turner from Pirates of the Carribian.

AncientPower
We have no idea how many spirits even attacked him though. Furthermore, them pressing down on him could quite simply be them asking him to join them in Vader's place. As far as Droga is considered, he only ever stays with the Emperor's ship so I imagine he arrived after the fact. The reason I say that is because spirits don't retain their Force reserves, attacking Sidious so viciously was probably all they could muster so they left him in an injured state. In DEII that was the exception to the rule because Palpatine was actually dying.

Not fact, but it's certainly the most plausible string of events as I see it.

AncientPower
Originally posted by ziggtard
Luke won his confrontation with Caedus, Palpatine lost his confrontation with 1000's of undead zombie/pirate types possed by lesser spirits.

This puts Palpatine directly below Will turner from Pirates of the Carribian.

Damn. That reminds me, Kun fights exactly that before he enters the Tombs and faces the Tomb Beasts. Thanks.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Oh, mi lord. Your presence gives me new found strength in our revered master, Sheev Palpatine, blessed his name be, thank you. Help us rid ourselves of this Ragnos insurrectionists.

👍

AncientPower
Originally posted by Azronger
Ironic, but it's true. For once you did something productive with your life and ennobled Sheev in the eyes of this boards' members by exhorting me to do some affixed inquiry. Your benefaction to Sheevism has been most effiacacious thumb up

Ennobled Sheev by allowing you to post a supposed feat that Jedi Kun -with his connection to the Force blocked by Nadd's spirit- actually accomplished prior to 'slaughtering' dozens of the far more dangerous tomb beasts.

Such a great boon for Sheev. laughing out loud

godemperortrump
Kek. RIP Sheev

BlueTiger1144
What a pathetic liar. Kun was just beginning to be attacked, and begged Nadd for help right from the onset. Nadd then protected him.

Yeah, because Sheev obliterating thousands of lesser spirits and many greater spirits doesn't completely shit on Kun being overwhelmed right when his battle with the spirits had just begun, and begging for help from Nadd.

As if that is not enough, the great genius is now equating the two feats to mean that Kun>Sheev!

ROFL, is the Sheev anti-brigade made out of mentally challenged fools?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
What a pathetic liar. Kun was just beginning to be attacked, and begged Nadd for help right from the onset. Nadd then protected him.

Yeah, because Sheev obliterating thousands of lesser spirits and many greater spirits doesn't completely shit on Kun being overwhelmed right when his battle with the spirits had just begun, and begging for help from Nadd.

As if that is not enough, the great genius is now equating the two feats to mean that Kun>Sheev!

ROFL, is the Sheev anti-brigade made out of mentally challenged fools?

You're being trolled, my child.

Azronger
Originally posted by godemperortrump
Link. You beat him on a Sidious vs Ancient Sith thread?

It was a debate about Banite scaling and the standing of Plagueis and Tenebrous next to the ancient Sith.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16269817#post16269817

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Azronger
As soon as he enters, the spirits start pressing on him, and Sheev from the looks of things doesn't give two shits. He starts ordering them around while far from peak condition and they acquiesce to his wishes. The impression I get is that even a handful of these spirits can't do jack to a half-dead Sheev who could barely use his Force abilities lest he further the necrosis and decay of his flesh. Not much else that needs to be said, tbh.
Spirits in that tomb pressed on Palpatine to determine his agenda; sounds like an attempt to probe the mind of the subject. Note that Palpatine's servants are completely unaffected in the same setting.

Secondly, Palpatine's arrogance notwithstanding, he was in no position to make those spirits subservient to his cause; an angry spirit shot back with this statement:

"how can one who has ruled only a few decades command those who held dominion for centuries?"

However, another spirit - out of respect for Palpatine's deep affinity with the Dark Side - convinced the angry spirit to give Palpatine a sign. The angry spirit obliged but left a powerful hint:

"..Or perhaps this child shall be your bright doom."

The angry spirit had foreseen Palpatine's demise....

Originally posted by Azronger
Also, there were apparently thousands of spirits on Korriban whose sole desire was to attack intruders like Palpatine.

Like many cultures, the Sith buried slaves, courtiers, and priests with their honored dead. Like many such belief systems, however, the ancient Sith had firsthand knowledge that the dark side would keep the souls of those crypt keepers trapped with their dead masters. Driven by hatred of those who entombed them and the madness that is existence in the dark side, the relatively weak spirits of thousands of lesser Sith act as protectors for the remains of their superiors.

Unable to exert enough strength to possess the living, these guardian spirits animate the fleshless corpses of various tomb robbers and space pirates that have unintentionally made Korriban their final resting place. A guardian spirit looks for all the world like a walking skeleton.

Millennia of madness in the dark side drive the possessing spirit insane. Therefore, they will not, and cannot, behave as sentient beings. They attack without mercy until they are physically destroyed. Even then, the guardian spirit may jump to another skeleton and rise again. Whatever they may once have been, these guardians now exist my as mindless walking dead, hulking, shambling things that must be destroyed to remove the taint of evil.

Walking dead guardian spirits are little more than shuffling bags of bones animated and filled with malicious intent by the dark side. They are immune to disease, the effects of cold, and the vacuum of space. The spirit energy that drives them is no longer sentient or self-aware, so it is not as susceptible to Force mental abilities. Indeed, they simply continue to obey the last command they received in life by protecting the necropolis from intruders.

The Dark Side Sourcebook

So Palpatine fended off thousands of lesser Sith spirits and an unknown number of greater spirits at once, presumably killed most of them given their lack of appearance upon his second trip to the Valley, and in a horrible condition is able to ward off several of the strongest ones who had held dominion for centuries in their heyday.

That's a pretty great feat for Sheev thumb up
On what grounds are you assuming that Palpatine fended off thousands of guardian spirits or so many assaulted him in the first place?

The (shared) information is valid in the context of the entirety of the valley of the Dark Lords, not a single Tomb. It suggests that the "guardian spirits" are too weak to affect living beings on their own and rather utilize corpses to assault them.

You are misreading your own sources.

ziggtard
I don't give a sh*t about the LeGenDary argument above. But just to clarify. Is this seriously the fighting Force that Palpatine lost against ?



Essentially these Spirits become the the Star Wars version of the Udead. Animated corspes made from bone who probably can't use the Force in any capacity - given that even the most powerful spirits usually have to channel their powers through other Force users (people with midi-chlorians). Did Sheev really loose to this:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-31-2017/ZS1JGL.gif


Even if there are ten thousand of them fighting at once. There are concessions to be made. The idea that Palpatine can army-bust, even if his opposition are low level Force users with fleshy bodies, is now null thanks to this example.

Unbowed
Just further proof that Sheev is just empty hype.

The vaunted quote about him mastering every Force power and inventing new ones at will is blatantly contradicted, since he has to go to Korriban and plead for knowledge from the Sith spirits.

And also these Dark Lords clearly haven't gotten the memo that Sheev is supposed to be "the Dark Side's most powerful expression" or however that bullshit quote went.

To them he's just the reigning Sith Lord in a long line full of them, not the speshul uber-powerful demigod his followers masturbate to.laughing out loud

Azronger
Originally posted by ziggtard
I don't give a sh*t about the LeGenDary argument above.

thumb up



Um, they should certainly be capable of using the Force after they have taken control of a vessel. The Force flows better through living tissue.



Once more, we don't know in what condition Palpatine was when the fight started. It's an ambiguous feat that can't really be used to establish any limit on his army busting capabilities. On the other hand, peak DE Sidious would lay waste to the entire planet no matter how big an army he's up against. Using this to lowball Sheev is disingenuous.

Azronger
Originally posted by Unbowed
Just further proof that Sheev is just empty hype.

The vaunted quote about him mastering every Force power and inventing new ones at will is blatantly contradicted, since he has to go to Korriban and plead for knowledge from the Sith spirits.

First of all, the quote states he knew all Jedi powers so how does that contradict him not knowing something about the dark side? Second, Sheev asking the Sith spirits for knowledge doesn't mean they knew something he didn't; it only means just that: Sheev asked them for knowledge. Doesn't rule out the possibility they had nothing new to offer. And third, you apparently have no clue about the timeline of Star Wars; Palpatine's fight with the Sith spirits happened shortly after the Battle of Yavin. The quote about the Emperor knowing all Jedi powers was attributed to Dark Empire Sidious, who is a decade older than A New Hope Sidious.



That's usually what happens to those who're disconnected from society for thousands of years, yeah.

Unbowed
Originally posted by Azronger
Um, they should certainly be capable of using the Force after they have taken control of a vessel. The Force flows better through living tissue.

I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of the words "skeleton", "fleshless corpse" or "shuffling bags of bones".

At least read your own ****ing quotes, Jesus...

Azronger
Originally posted by Unbowed
I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of the words "skeleton", "fleshless corpse" or "shuffling bags of bones".

At least read your own ****ing quotes, Jesus...

I don't think you quite grasp that bones have bone marrow i.e. living tissue inside the hard exterior.

At least read your ****ing elementary school homework, Jesus... roll eyes (sarcastic)

ziggtard
Originally posted by Azronger
I don't think you quite grasp that bones have bone marrow i.e. living tissue inside the hard exterior.

At least read your ****ing elementary school homework, Jesus... roll eyes (sarcastic)


The bone marrow is not living tissue if it belongs to a corpse of a pirate. Oxygen can not enter the cells of any part of the body when the person is dead.



You could say that about every off panel interaction/fight in the mythos. Most people here, myself included, aren't factoring this in because it's most logical to assume he visited the temples in a normal condition.



DE sids is a different kettle of fish for sure. But a lot of sheev discussion here centres around previous incarnations. This thread included as it features ROTS palps - who's suspodely weaker the 0 BBY palpaitne that visited the Korriban temple.

slayne
@Az: do we have any reason to assume that Sheev wasn't operating at full strength when the fight occurred?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by slayne
do we have any reason to assume

No.

AncientPower
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
What a pathetic liar. Kun was just beginning to be attacked, and begged Nadd for help right from the onset. Nadd then protected him.

Yeah, because Sheev obliterating thousands of lesser spirits and many greater spirits doesn't completely shit on Kun being overwhelmed right when his battle with the spirits had just begun, and begging for help from Nadd.

As if that is not enough, the great genius is now equating the two feats to mean that Kun>Sheev!

ROFL, is the Sheev anti-brigade made out of mentally challenged fools?

It'd be a shame for you if the Audiobook depicted something different.

Sheev never even accomplished that, so you can stop that crap argument right now. More importantly, him being surprised by the dead pirates is quite different from begging Nadd to help him. laughing out loud

I never made that argument, get off the fentanyl.

This is the typical Sheevite response.

Unbowed
Originally posted by ziggtard
The bone marrow is not living tissue if it belongs to a corpse of a pirate. Oxygen can not enter the cells of any part of the body when the person is dead.

Maybe he thinks the bone marrow acts as a "Dark side accumulator", similar to Palpatine himself. roll eyes (sarcastic)

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by ziggtard
I don't give a sh*t about the LeGenDary argument above.
Don't be a DICK either. Just concentrate on your own arguments.

Originally posted by Azronger
thumb up
So you don't have a counter to my points? I see.

ziggtard
^^

http://www.thecoli.com/media/hbgay.14651/full?d=1503714863

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
Sheev obliterating thousands of lesser spirits and many greater spirits
https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7btPCcdNniyf0ArS/source.gif

AncientPower
>Specifically stated in his own quote that the spirits are too weak and have to resurrect dead pirates to attack intruders.
>They can use the Force.

Top tier Az logic.

Azronger
I'll have a response coming soon. Give me a few days

MythLord
Yeah, AP. Az has a life. Maybe you should try getting one?

Sinious
Originally posted by MythLord
Az has a life. lmfao

MythLord
Lemme rephrase that: Az has a life relative to AP?

Azronger
Ziggy, most of your points are inconsequential to my overall argument here, so I won't waste my time discussing the intricasies of human biology or the minutiae of channelling the Force through inorganic matter - I already spent too much time researching those topics, and concluded that I'd have to do far more if I wished to attain a complete picture, which may very well have resulted in me being wrong and you being right, making all the precious time spent useless.

Even if I happened to be correct, the resulting victory would only have been a superfluous bonus, a cherry on top of the cake; Palpatine slaying thousands of Force wielders by himself would have been inappurtenant to his position at the apex of the pecking order of the Sith Lords, as it is more than anything a feat of stamina - you can only fight so many at a time; you'll just be repeating the same feat of facing a handful at a time over and over again - meaning it cannot be translated to reflect his capabilities as a single combatant. In other words, a feat like that is unquantifiable, and by proxy, unsupportive of Sheev's preeminence among the Lords of the Sith.

As such, I will drop the point for now. Consider that a concession if you will; doesn't matter to me. I rest my case for the time being, but not before leaving you with the facts: the guardian spirits are able to use the Force in a limited capacity. They are unable to affect the living enough to harm them, but are capable of dominating the minds of the Hssiss, a breed of dark side beasts:

"Hssiss are semi-intelligent beasts, corrupted and strengthed by prolonged exposure to the dark side. As creatures of the Force, they have a limited ability to mask theor presence. Hssiss are drawn to suffering and carnage. They must have fed on all the corpses left over from the war here on Korriban. The angry phantoms of the Sith, too weak to influence the sentient, have taken these Hssiss as thralls to their will."

--Kreia
Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Their possession of the skeletons of deceased pirates and other plunderers is also not really "possession" in the descriptive sense of the word: the carcasses have no consciousness, no sentient mind to take control of. They are entirely lifeless shells, no different from rocks or other clutter. Thus, I believe their "possession" is in fact telekinetic rather than telepathic in nature. Obviously this would mean they are able to use telekinesis then, although to a very limited degree. The point being though, that they are not the equivalent of non-Force sensitives. Especially when they can hop onto another body if their current one is destroyed:

They attack without mercy until they are physically destroyed. Even then, the guardian spirit may jump to another skeleton and rise again.

The Dark Side Sourcebook

So Sheev would not be fighting an army of thousands; he would be fighting a never-ending legion the dead who keep coming back over and over, that can't be defeated through convential methods:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579263-8745156553-mGdwo.gif

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579274-7733370159-KreLE.gif

Azronger

S_W_LeGenD
@Azronger

Palpatine was influencing the Imperial forces with Battle Meditation (for the Battle of Endor).

Secondly, Palpatine was drawing power from Byss to fuel his own. It is logical to assume that this strategy facilitated his multi-tasking efforts.

MythLord
that gif at the end kills me

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