The prequel era being the prime of the Jedi

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Azronger

Kurk
Explains why Darth Bane is such trash.

Haschwalth
It's really not surprising considering they had 1000 years of no Sith.

ares834
"Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days (TotJ/KotOR) of the Jedi in their prime."

yes

DarthAnt66
thumb up

Azronger
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3969946-1972971694-yay10.png

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3829938-1215401146-yay21.png

Where are these from, Ant?

DarthAnt66
KotOR Campaign Guide (not to be confused with the Prima Guide), 2008.

Azronger
Been retconned, it seems. The Clone Wars Campaign Guide is from 2009.

DarthAnt66
Lmfao that quote doesn't constitute a retcon even in you're doing Neph-tier reaching.

Azronger
The quote says the Jedi grew alongside the Republic throughout the ages. Pretty straightforward to me.

DarthAnt66
There's no direct contradiction. Both quotes can function together.

The Jedi grow as the Republic grows. First off, no where does it state this grow is related to power. It can be related to knowledge, wisdom, etc.

More importantly, the Jedi can grow throughout the years but TotJ and KotOR still be the peak of their power due to the fact the Order was, immediately thereafter, destroyed to just a few dozen members and rebuilt from scratch.

While they did indeed rebuild, it's apparent, from the KotOR quote, that the Jedi Order never again reached the pinnacle of combat-related prowess as they did during the Sith Wars, and that makes sense.

Tell me why a Jedi Order after a thousand years of peace and a galactic dark-side shroud hindering them would be better than a Jedi Order in a constant century of warfare and battle.

Truly nothing states the PT Jedi Order is the best. I have no clue where that nonsense came from, nor is it remotely conveyed in the actual films.

TenebrousWay
The republic was all but thriving during the Clone Wars. If you take the quote literally, it's factually wrong. If you take it figuratively it's generic and unspecific.

DarthAnt66
The same can be said for TotJ, KotOR, SWTOR, NSW, etc.

What people don't realize is a lot of these quotes, Lucas' especially, generically apply to the Old Republic Jedi Order in its entirety, not a specific time-frame of it.

NewGuy01
Nah, most of them seem to be talking post-Ruusan.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Nah, most of them seem to be talking post-Ruusan.
With the exception of the relatively new and still arguable Luke one, I disagree.

cs_zoltan
The Kotor CG places the era above the CW Jedi Order, but The CW CG also says that the Order is at decline because of the war, so it doesn't mean that TPM-AoTC can't be the prime of the jedi.

Fated Xtasy
Man, I'm lucky I just turned twenty-one, now I can drink when these arguments start poppin up lmao

cs_zoltan
Only a f-ucked up country like 'murica would allow drinking at such an old age.

I was an alocoholic before you could legaly drink.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What people don't realize is a lot of these quotes, Lucas' especially, generically apply to the Old Republic Jedi Order in its entirety, not a specific time-frame of it.

Count me among their number. Elucidate, please.

DarthAnt66
It just doesn't follow within the context.

The Jedi Order we see at the start of TPM is essentially the Jedi Order. Lucas has never reportedly drafted (by the time of AotC, at least) that, in earlier times, the Jedi were different than as presented in TPM. Even if he did, obviously it has never been made public. Thus, it makes no sense for Lucas to be comparing the strength of the prequel trilogy Jedi to non-existent eras of Jedi that came before. As far as we can tell, the non-created and created Jedi eras all essentially the same anyway - timeless, many in number, and functioning as galactic peacekeepers, like seen in TPM. In fact, the only difference may be that, over time, the Jedi have become arrogant (ex. Mace Windu), and, as noted throughout the first two prequel films, blinded by a shroud of the dark-side. Mace even notes that "our ability to use the Force is diminished" to Yoda in AotC. So, regarding these quotes of the "golden age," it's blatantly comparing the Jedi Order as a legitimate institution with 10,000 fully trained Jedi Knights running around to the original trilogy, the only actual other era, in which Lucas infamously stated it's "old men" and "untrained kids" fighting.

It's really just what makes the most sense.

Zenwolf
Tbh imo, there's no real big gaps between any eras of the Jedi Order. They each have their own advantages and what not, but as I see it, nothing really skews one era in favor than another.

godemperortrump
Lmao

NewGuy01
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The Jedi Order we see at the start of TPM is essentially the Jedi Order. Lucas has never reportedly drafted (by the time of AotC, at least) that, in earlier times, the Jedi were different than as presented in TPM. Even if he did, obviously it has never been made public. Thus, it makes no sense for Lucas to be comparing the strength of the prequel trilogy Jedi to non-existent eras of Jedi that came before.

Yeah, that doesn't really fly. The fact that he hadn't envisioned the particulars of earlier eras doesn't change his obvious intention; when the Jedi fell, they fell from the peak of their power and influence, which was built up in the absence of the Sith.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by ares834
"Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days (TotJ/KotOR) of the Jedi in their prime."

yes
The context of that quote wasn't about the individual power of combatants, but rather the amount of power the institution as a whole exerted.

There's no quote regarding kotor being the prime of the order that refers to then ability of individual combatants.

AncientPower
No one claimed otherwise. erm

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
which was built up in the absence of the Sith.
But that isn't said in Lucas' quotes. That's what you're interjecting to give it further context.

My point is exactly what you said here:



Which refers to not just the last thirty some years, but the Old Republic in general.

AncientPower
thumb up

Kurk
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Only a f-ucked up country like 'murica would allow drinking at such an old age.

I was an alocoholic before you could legaly drink. ah yes, Europe; highest rate of binge drinking and alcohol related deaths responsible for the highest mortality rates among 15-29 year olds. Natural selection I guess smile .

Darth Thor
Lucas's quotes were clearly just a comparison of the PT to the OT. He's never talked about KOTOR as far as I know.

If he said something akin to "In the whole History of the Jedi they were never this powerful", then that'd be better evidence.

godemperortrump
Drunks are terrible, that's why everybody should be one. God will punish alcoholics in heaven but until then, happy drinking

The_Tempest
I'm still unconvinced.
First, Lucas doesn't have to explicitly reference earlier epochs of Jedi history for his proclamation that the prequels are the prime of the Jedi to ring true.
Second, the prequels don't have to be the prime, the heyday, or the golden age of the Jedi to simply be better fighters than the Jedi of the original trilogy. But Lucas still referred to the prequels as such.

BlueTiger1144
thumb up

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm still unconvinced.
First, Lucas doesn't have to explicitly reference earlier epochs of Jedi history for his proclamation that the prequels are the prime of the Jedi to ring true.
Second, the prequels don't have to be the prime, the heyday, or the golden age of the Jedi to simply be better fighters than the Jedi of the original trilogy. But Lucas still referred to the prequels as such.


But he's talking in the context of the movies isn't he?

You know I'm a PT/OT era guy, and don't care much for the KOTOR era. But it's just how I always interpreted Lucas's statement. He was always talking about it in the context of the Prequels giving us stuff we've not seen before.

BlueTiger1144
Lucas's word is actually fact. Applicable for everything. It also makes perfect sense for him to be referring to the TPM era as their most powerful( this is just for argument's sake, it actually is the most powerful era), because in terms of the Sith war, it is made clear that it clouds a Jedi's connection to the force. And the Jedi have had a millenium to grow, unencumbered by the dark side.

So any way you want to look at it, he was referring to them being most powerful during the time of TPM.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm still unconvinced.
First, Lucas doesn't have to explicitly reference earlier epochs of Jedi history for his proclamation that the prequels are the prime of the Jedi to ring true.
Second, the prequels don't have to be the prime, the heyday, or the golden age of the Jedi to simply be better fighters than the Jedi of the original trilogy. But Lucas still referred to the prequels as such.
I mean, I'm reading the same quote as you - I'm just not concluding the same thing. To me, your stance doesn't make any sense within the context, and is just wishful thinking. I struggle believing one can read that quote and conclude that's what Lucas is referring to, rather than just using that quote for their own benefits.

The Jedi of the original trilogy are few in number, in exile or in training, and weakened or unskilled. The Jedi of the prequel trilogy are many in number, present in galactic affairs, and powerful. It makes perfect sense why he's calling the prequel trilogy the "golden age." That doesn't likewise apply to previous Jedi eras, since they should also be considered within that assessment.

BlueTiger1144
So any way you want to look at it, he was referring to them being most powerful during the time of TPM.

Ant is incorrect. The one quote which says anything remotely like that is the one which says that the Jedi are at their prime. Given that he refuted the CG quote by saying that it could refer to knowledge, it is just as well that this one could refer to knowledge as well. Or experience.

The quote simply says that it was the prime of the Jedi. That's it. Which is exactly what GL has said.

Trying to extend the GL quote in general to the OR by induction, also doesn't work at all, because as said, the Jedi were obliterated multiple times in the past.

GL has said very clearly that during TPM, the Jedi Order is at its prime. This quote, as is, is fact. He wasn't referring to any other era before TPM, he wasn't doing induction to extend this to any other time period in the Old Republic. And compared with GL's word, this falls flat. Not to mention, GL's quote is supplemented by a variety of other quotes as well, including the one from the Book of Sith.

BlueTiger1144
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
So any way you want to look at it, he was referring to them being most powerful during the time of TPM.

Ant is incorrect. The one quote which says anything remotely like that is the one which says that the Jedi are at their prime. Given that he refuted the CG quote by saying that it could refer to knowledge, it is just as well that this one could refer to knowledge as well. Or experience. Especially experience.

The quote simply says that it was the prime of the Jedi. That's it. Which is exactly what GL has said.

Trying to extend the GL quote in general to the OR by induction, also doesn't work at all, because as said, the Jedi were obliterated multiple times in the past. Even when the Jedi were numerous, like in Bane's era, they were pathetically weak and desperate, going so far as to take in members just for the sake of it, desperate for anything to help them against the Sith.

GL has said very clearly that during TPM, the Jedi Order is at its prime. This quote, as is, is fact. He wasn't referring to any other era before TPM, he wasn't doing induction to extend this to any other time period in the Old Republic( which would be blatantly incorrect as we saw earlier). And compared with GL's word, this falls flat. Not to mention, GL's quote is supplemented by a variety of other quotes as well, including the one from the Book of Sith.
Meant to edit the previous one. Quoted it by mistake.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144


GL has said very clearly that during TPM, the Jedi Order is at its prime. This quote, as is, is fact. He wasn't referring to any other era before TPM, he wasn't doing induction to extend this to any other time period in the Old Republic. And compared with GL's word, this falls flat. Not to mention, GL's quote is supplemented by a variety of other quotes as well, including the one from the Book of Sith.


Actually his quote could group together many past eras due to Ben Kenobi's line in ANH "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic... Before the Dark Times... Before the Empire..."

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's no direct contradiction. Both quotes can function together.

The Jedi grow as the Republic grows. First off, no where does it state this grow is related to power. It can be related to knowledge, wisdom, etc.

Good point. However, the context seems to be solving crises and such, so I'd imagine lightsaber skill and mastery of the Force would be involved.



It doesn't refer to the Order; it just refers to Jedi. Whether they were part of the Order or not doesn't have any significance. They continued to grow regardless.



Could be a variety of reasons, none of which I need to know, because the fact remains that they are better during the prequels.

These same criticisms could be applied to the KotOR era too. They were hindered by a dark side shroud and their numbers had dwindled to a few hundred only, IIRC. You tell me why that kind of order would be better than one with ten thousand members who're free to spar with lightsabers and meditate on the Force in peace.

But don't bother; the possible reasons are irrelevant, as I said, so long as the facts are clear. Your point is moot.



It not being conveyed doesn't mean it isn't the case. KotOR being the prime isn't conveyed it the game either, so this just smells like a double standard.

DarthAnt66
Hence why I don't put KotOR as the prime of the Jedi either

Rather than point out the issues with the KotORCG quote, which anyone can recognize, justify the positioning that the PT era is instead the golden age, which is my main issue with this entire thread. I use the KotORCG quote to counter the mindless "PT is the supreme era" nonsense. I find it amusing the only legitimate claim to it is actually TotJ / KotOR. Every PT era quote is wonderfully ambiguous and distorted in use.

It's not that I rule out the PT to other eras like TotJ or KotOR. I don't have a solid opinion on which era I even consider the "golden age." The prequel trilogy very well may be the best era, but such an opinion isn't rooted in evidence - quite the contrary, actually. My point is you (and others) are trying to write this PT supremacy as G-Canon law, which it isn't. You even passively admitted in the above post that there are indeed issues with the notion and ambiguity surrounding the Lucas quotes.

Azronger
Originally posted by Azronger
It doesn't refer to the Order; it just refers to Jedi. Whether they were part of the Order or not doesn't have any significance. They continued to grow regardless.

To add to this point, I realized none of the quotes about PT being the prime refer to the Jedi Order. The KotOR CG does. You can be a Jedi without being a part of the Order, so PT being the prime of the Jedi and KotOR being the prime of the Order as an insitution are not contradictory notions.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Hence why I don't put KotOR as the prime of the Jedi either

Rather than point out the issues with the KotORCG quote, which anyone can recognize, justify the positioning that the PT era is instead the golden age, which is my main issue with this entire thread. I use the KotORCG quote to counter the mindless "PT is the supreme era" nonsense. I find it amusing the only legitimate claim to it is actually TotJ / KotOR. Every PT era quote is wonderfully ambiguous and distorted in use.

It's not that I rule out the PT to other eras like TotJ or KotOR. I don't have a solid opinion on which era I even consider the "golden age." The prequel trilogy very well may be the best era, but such an opinion isn't rooted in evidence - quite the contrary, actually. My point is you (and others) are trying to write this PT supremacy as G-Canon law, which it isn't. You even passively admitted in the above post that there are indeed issues with the notion and ambiguity surrounding the Lucas quotes.

This in response to BlueTiger or me?

DarthAnt66
(My last post got bumped to last page. Check out, Az.)
Originally posted by Azronger
To add to this point, I realized none of the quotes about PT being the prime refer to the Jedi Order. The KotOR CG does. You can be a Jedi without being a part of the Order, so PT being the prime of the Jedi and KotOR being the prime of the Order as an insitution are not contradictory notions.

Except the KotOR quotes attribute KotOR's supremacy being an era filled with warfare. As per the quote, KotOR is absolute in both the institution-respect and the fighting-respect. The comments on the Sith and the Mandalorians are not relevant to the Jedi's power as an institution and, if anything, damaging.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
This in response to BlueTiger or me?
You, particularly in regards to claiming double-standards and basing your argument against the KotOR era.

DarthDuelist9
It's actually quite logical that the PT era is the prime of the Jedi to be honest. They would've thousands of extra years of gathering new knowledge, improving training methods, experiences from past conflicts,...

FreshestSlice
KotOR being the prime of the Jedi makes zero sense anyway. This is the Jedi after three galactic wars, two explicitly involving the culling of Jedi.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I use the KotORCG quote to counter the mindless "PT is the supreme era" nonsense.
Which doesn't work because the KotorCG quote doesn't share the context of the PT era quotes(or the ones which can be applied to an induvidual's abilities).

Lucas's first quote is very clearly in the context of an individual combatant's ability

The third quote specifically references how powerful the masters are, not the institution.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Hence why I don't put KotOR as the prime of the Jedi either

Rather than point out the issues with the KotORCG quote, which anyone can recognize, justify the positioning that the PT era is instead the golden age, which is my main issue with this entire thread. I use the KotORCG quote to counter the mindless "PT is the supreme era" nonsense. I find it amusing the only legitimate claim to it is actually TotJ / KotOR. Every PT era quote is wonderfully ambiguous and distorted in use.

It's not that I rule out the PT to other eras like TotJ or KotOR. I don't have a solid opinion on which era I even consider the "golden age." The prequel trilogy very well may be the best era, but such an opinion isn't rooted in evidence - quite the contrary, actually. My point is you (and others) are trying to write this PT supremacy as G-Canon law, which it isn't.

I already listed several validations for PT paramountcy, none of which you from the looks of things noticed. But once again, no one needs to justify facts. Facts are, by their very definition, absolute truths. They don't require further validation - otherwise they would not be facts.

And given you completely ignored my other point, the CWCG quote does indeed remain factual: the Jedi grew as the Republic grew, meaning they'd be more capable of solving crises as time went on. The Clone Wars take place later in history than the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War, so per that statement, the Jedi are better during the former than they were during the latter two.



Enlighten me. Not that I used Lucas' quotes to argue this in the first place anyway.



That's fair.

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