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- Legends Dooku

bastila.

In EU with the opponent's passive force barriers in place? With the definition of "ragdolling" being the state of an opponent completely unable to break free or fight back?


Probably B-team members, Ki Adi Mundi, Late TCW Kenobi.

When Dooku ragdolls, I don't believe it's due to raw strength or overwhelming force. It's due to him being so well refined in the application of the force to the point where he can find and exploit the smallest flaws in an opponent's defenses.

RotS Kenobi

Nah, he can't ragdoll Kenobi straight-up.

Ki-Adi Mundi/Qui-Gon/Tholme level imo.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nah, he can't ragdoll Kenobi straight-up.

He already did. He lifted him straight-up off the ground then back onto the ground at a different location in the room.

That was principally because of speed / exploiting an opening.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That was principally because of speed / exploiting an opening. Which is still ragdolling. Kenobi was helpless.

I'm simply stating Dooku can't just throw around Obi-Wan without Obi-Wan being first vulnerable.

The issue is, the same is absolutely true vice versa, hence why calling it "ragdolling" is misleading.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm simply stating Dooku can't just throw around Obi-Wan without Obi-Wan being first vulnerable.

The issue is, the same is absolutely true vice versa, hence why calling it "ragdolling" is misleading.

Do you believe Obi-Wan could do the same to Dooku?

TK via exploiting an opening? Absolutely. We see Maul do the same to Sidious in the TCW deleted scenes.

And that's just one of countless examples.

You conflate general telekinesis with ragdolling. The former requires much less in terms of surprise and ability.

In Legends terms, attacking by surprise / speed, as in the case of Dooku, circumvents the need to overcome the Greater Force barrier. Dooku simply destroys the Lesser Force barrier and has free reign to do whatever he wants to do with Obi-Wan, which is quite explicitly conveyed in the ROTS junior novel. Of course, the longer Dooku has his energies entrapped around Obi-Wan, the longer Obi-Wan has to summon the necessary power to break free, so it should not be a surprise Dooku quickly hurled Obi-Wan against a wall rather than maintained a telekinetic grasp like Revan did against the coalition strike team. Plus, a maintained hold would likely be taxing for Dooku as well, although that issue seems much more pronounced in Canon.

Speaking of Canon, I don't see any indication of any innate difference from "general telekinesis" and "ragdolling" besides the added difficulty of simply throwing around a human body and, as just stated, the energy expenditure factor, as shown with Maul's tiring / difficulty to maintain hold over the Seventh Sister for an extended period of time in Rebels.

So, no.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In Legends terms, attacking by surprise / speed, as in the case of Dooku, circumvents the need to overcome the Greater Force barrier. Dooku simply destroys the Lesser Force barrier and has free reign to do whatever he wants to do with Obi-Wan, which is quite explicitly conveyed in the ROTS junior novel. Of course, the longer Dooku has his energies entrapped around Obi-Wan, the longer Obi-Wan has to summon the necessary power to break free, so it should not be a surprise Dooku quickly hurled Obi-Wan against a wall rather than maintained a telekinetic grasp like Revan did against the coalition strike team. Plus, a maintained hold would likely be taxing for Dooku as well, although that issue seems much more pronounced in Canon.

Speaking of Canon, I don't see any indication of any innate difference from "general telekinesis" and "ragdolling" besides the added difficulty of simply throwing around a human body and, as just stated, the energy expenditure factor, as shown with Maul's tiring / difficulty to maintain hold over the Seventh Sister for an extended period of time in Rebels.

So, no.

My friend, do you fail to see how a sustained grip over another Force user that goes seconds without being dispelled differs from a ballistic, momentary action such as a Force push? I do not know what to tell you in this case

That was... that was completely addressed in my post.

False. You used Maul's non-canon feat against Sidious to make a point about ragdolling. Dooku threw Obi-Wan to incapacitate him, which is much more effective than simply Force pushing him somewhere. Otherwise there is no reason to levitate an opponent for longer than he did.

... what?

The thread asks who is the most powerful character Dooku can ragdoll.

I noted how Dooku cannot ragdoll Obi-Wan straight-up, as in, if the two are staring at each other, Dooku can't just wave his hand and send Obi-Wan flying.

Dooku capitalized on a specific moment of vulnerability against Obi-Wan.

We have various examples of this happening throughout Canon with lesser Force-users doing it to greater Force-users, Maul and Sidious being one example.

Thus, it's not fair to say Dooku's capable of "ragdolling" Obi-Wan within the context of the thread.

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I was then asked by yourself if I thought Obi-Wan could replicate what Dooku vice versa.

My response was yes: lesser Force users have maintained prolonged telekinetic supremacy via exploiting an opening against greater ones.

Again, Maul and Sidious, but also Kanan and the Grand Inquisitor, Savage and Dooku, Asajj and Anakin, etc.

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In regards to Force push versus ragdolling, I noted all the similarities and differences between the two applications of telekinesis.

It's a ****ing deleted scene Ant, it never happened. Stop flogging that dead horse and find a better example

Originally posted by godemperortrump
and find a better example

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kanan and the Grand Inquisitor, Savage and Dooku, Asajj and Anakin, etc.

ffs

Besides that, the point it was deleted is irrelevant. If it made it's way into animation, generally speaking it's due to time constraints.

The only exceptions to that rule would be, I'd think, if Lucas changes his mind late-game, like with the Revan/Bane ghosts on Mortis.

Darth Maul and Bane

Didn't know you have such a low opinion of Dooku.

Ragdoll, as in exploit gaps and use telekinesis on the opponent? Anybody.

Ragdoll, as in, well and truly fodderize an opponent with the force, obliterating all counters with minimal effort? Hard to tell. In the PT era, any Jedi Master aside from the top 5/6, probably.