Kefla vs. Goku Black

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Galan007
SSJ Kefla:
https://i.imgur.com/oLAlwtO.jpg


VS.


SSJR Goku Black:
https://i.imgur.com/2C69whl.jpg

*This is Black just before getting stomped by SSB Vegeta.


How goes it?

Ridley_Prime

Galan007
Considering we know SSB Goku > Kefla(even when he is drastically weakened) I'd say that if Kefla ends up standing any sort of legit chance against UI, it just means Goku is *that* weak at the moment... Or at least, that's the only thing that'd make ANY sort of sense, because we also know that UI is VASTLY more powerful than SSB. /shrug

...I'm really just hoping the stupidity/inconsistency of DBS doesn't even reach THAT level, though. ermm

cdtm
Admits Super is stupidly inconsistent.

Suck it, Carver.

Kento
Originally posted by Galan007
Considering we know SSB Goku > Kefla(even when he is drastically weakened) I'd say that if Kefla ends up standing any sort of legit chance against UI, it just means Goku is *that* weak at the moment... Or at least, that's the only thing that'd make ANY sort of sense, because we also know that UI is VASTLY more powerful than SSB. /shrug

...I'm really just hoping the stupidity/inconsistency of DBS doesn't even reach THAT level, though. ermm Well, you are also forgetting that Caulifla kept getting more powerful during the fight. I mean, granted she kinda reached some peak during her battle against ssg because she couldn't keep up and completely got dominated like she was nothing and was one-shot. So Kefla is probably going to show that also. Least I hope so..cause if Kefla just gets beaten like nothing by UI I'm going to be more upset.

Course I'm going to guess in manga that UI isn't going to be a power boost..since Whis told Vegeta at the level of power he has, if he could learn UI he's beat anyone because it's just the ability to not think while you are fighting. Course in Super, Goku seems to need it more than anyone because he's caught off guard every second.

I'd say Kefla would win though.

vansonbee
Kefla with low-mid difficulty.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Black wins.

Kefla would probably start by beating the shit out of Black, only for him to surpass her. She's not so far above Black (like Jiren is) that she'd just up and oneshot him. Plus she's a Saiyan who wants a good fight.

Damborgson
Black would drive hia blade through her heart eventually, he's unnaturally tough,

Galan007
Originally posted by Kento
Well, you are also forgetting that Caulifla kept getting more powerful during the fight. I mean, granted she kinda reached some peak during her battle against ssg because she couldn't keep up and completely got dominated like she was nothing and was one-shot. So Kefla is probably going to show that also. Least I hope so..cause if Kefla just gets beaten like nothing by UI I'm going to be more upset.

Course I'm going to guess in manga that UI isn't going to be a power boost..since Whis told Vegeta at the level of power he has, if he could learn UI he's beat anyone because it's just the ability to not think while you are fighting. Course in Super, Goku seems to need it more than anyone because he's caught off guard every second.

I'd say Kefla would win though. Yeah, UI definitely isn't a power boost. As you mentioned, it's just mastering how to fight without thinking about the moves of you or your opponent(s) -- letting your body take over completely.

UI basically what was giving Beerus the edge over the other GoDs in the manga(even though he hasn't fully mastered it):
https://i.imgur.com/ildawOh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/okSdVm8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tXUm8tM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NDdPk3P.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/OadWAXn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0swyk03.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jrdZzXb.jpg


Come to think of it, Goku demonstrated the incipient stages of UI early on in DBS, when he first fought Beerus on King Kai's world as a SSJ3... Just after firing a Kamehameha at Beerus, Goku began charging him when his body inextricably stopped itself and withdrew backwards. Goku didn't know wtf was happening at the time, but his body took over because, at a primal level, it sensed that Beerus was about to attack/incapacitate/kill him. Beerus even states: "If you hadn't jumped back like that, this fight would be over. Your INSTINCT saved you..."

mmm

SSJGGogeta

Galan007
Don't get me wrong, UI most certainly boosts Goku's stats. What I mean is that as of now it doesn't come off as a strict power-multiplier like we've seen from the other transformations, imo. Seems like UI enables Goku to fight to the absolute best of his ability(ie. no conscious thinking required), which also allows him to use the power already at his disposal to its absolute best -- boosting his stats across the board as a corollary.

...If any of that makes sense?

Kento
Oh in Super anime it's totally a power up, boosting stats and junk because they say his power rose. then again in super anime power levels don't matter much. It could have just made Goku a better fighter than Jiren because he doesn't consciously attack. And we've seen Roshi Dodge faster and stronger fighters by knowing what they would do. And it was flat out stated Goku was only beating Caulifla because she is a brawler, no martial art talent.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
Considering we know SSB Goku > Kefla(even when he is drastically weakened) I'd say that if Kefla ends up standing any sort of legit chance against UI, it just means Goku is *that* weak at the moment... Or at least, that's the only thing that'd make ANY sort of sense, because we also know that UI is VASTLY more powerful than SSB. /shrug

...I'm really just hoping the stupidity/inconsistency of DBS doesn't even reach THAT level, though. ermm

They really better not make Kefla GoD level...

Galan007
Originally posted by Kento
Oh in Super anime it's totally a power up, boosting stats and junk because they say his power rose. then again in super anime power levels don't matter much. It could have just made Goku a better fighter than Jiren because he doesn't consciously attack. And we've seen Roshi Dodge faster and stronger fighters by knowing what they would do. And it was flat out stated Goku was only beating Caulifla because she is a brawler, no martial art talent. thumb up

And the manga implies that fighting skill = power. For example, Toppo states that fighting skill is what puts Jiren over Belmond. The manga also states that Beerus' fighting skill/UI is what allows him to contend with ALL of the GoDs simultaneously. So yeah...

Kento
Does make me think in raw power Belmond is above Jiren.

Ridley_Prime

Kento
Shouldn't Kale get the mother of all rage boosts. She's the one prone to angry, landscape changing yells. XD

Ridley_Prime
My earlier shitposting aside, I might have to give it to Kefla on this one now. She was holding back up until UI Goku, where she then went SSJ2 (or LSSJ2 or whatever you want to call it).

Her final attack that she tried to hit Goku with would probably do Black in, if the attack hits him. Unless Black can dodge that stuff long enough to close in and impale her with a ki blade, she wins.

Also, that statement she made about being powerful enough to destroy a universe... Seemed hyperbole, but interesting nonetheless.

Estacado
Yeah disco light Kefla should wreck Black he wont be able to dodge that.

byrdgang21
Originally posted by Galan007
Don't get me wrong, UI most certainly boosts Goku's stats. What I mean is that as of now it doesn't come off as a strict power-multiplier like we've seen from the other transformations, imo. Seems like UI enables Goku to fight to the absolute best of his ability(ie. no conscious thinking required), which also allows him to use the power already at his disposal to its absolute best -- boosting his stats across the board as a corollary.

...If any of that makes sense?

Yes. It seems pretty similar to how Gohan's mystic power up works yet to a much larger degree.

Dark-Kenshin
Within the course of one episode, Kefla's stats were retconned to Spirit bomb levels. So Kefla stomps. Bad writing for the win!

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Kento
Does make me think in raw power Belmond is above Jiren.

There was a different translation for that that says "As far as power level goes, Jiren is stronger than Belmod."

Also, manga chapter 30 confirms Jiren is "more powerful" than Belmod.

Galan007
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Also, that statement she made about being powerful enough to destroy a universe... Seemed hyperbole, but interesting nonetheless. Definitely hyperbole.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Wouldn't doubt she could do it, though. smile

carver9
She can. In regards to the fight, Kefla one shot kills Black. Black before merging was having issues physically with Vegeta, he then brought out the clones which made things interesting. He will not have the chance to use that here. He gets killed, instantly.

Galan007
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Wouldn't doubt she could do it, though. smile Over time? Sure. In one fell swoop? Not imo.

It's been made clear that Zen-Oh is the only being in creation with the power to destroy a universe with a single attack... A level of power unthinkable to even the GoDs(that's why they quake in fear of Zen-Oh.)

So if you think Kefla can destroy a universe with a single attack, then where do you put UI Goku...where do you put Jiren!? blink

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, we also know that Beerus was capable of casually nullifying the universe-annihilating energy ball back in the BoG arc. And both Beerus and Goku were stated to "wield power capable of destroying the universe," (mind you 'this being a very suppressed Beerus). So I have no doubt that Beerus has universe-busting + type of power.

But he can't erase it with a squish of his hand like Zen-Oh can. Nor can he erase at that scale, (imagine Beerus using hakai on an entire universe).

I'm saying I wouldn't doubt that Kefla could destroy a universe, and pretty darn quickly, too. After all, we know that Buuhan (who's a microbe to the likes of SSJ2 Kefla) was capable of crushing the universe by tearing apart the dimensional barriers, (this was stated in the daizenchuu).

Galan007
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm saying I wouldn't doubt that Kefla could destroy a universe, and pretty darn quickly, too. I'm sure she can destroy a universe, given the time/chance. She isn't one-shotting a universe, though -- nor are the GoDs, for that matter. It has been made abundantly clear that Zen-Oh is the *only* being capable of doing that... If the GoDs were also capable of such, they likely wouldn't shit their pants at the mere thought of his power.

Honestly, when Beerus spoke of Zen-Oh's ability to one-shot the universe, he acted like such power was VASTLY beyond even his wildest dreams -- several orders of magnitude beyond him at the very least... and even UI Goku has yet to reach Beerus-levels of power(though it's imminent), and UI Goku > Kefla. So....

confused

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
After all, we know that Buuhan (who's a microbe to the likes of SSJ2 Kefla) was capable of crushing the universe by tearing apart the dimensional barriers, (this was stated in the daizenchuu). That line is actually from the 'Special Attacks' section of Daizenshuu 7(a lot of 'tards on the interweb will argue that it's from the 2nd Daizenshuu, but this is incorrect):


But if you watch the anime episode this 'attack' occurred in(remember, it was purely a filler scene that never occurred in the manga), you'll find that the universe would have only been destroyed in a chain reaction type of event, that was exclusive to Boo(han) alone... Not at all similar to wiping out the universe in one fell swoop with a single ki blast or whathaveyou.

*Also keep in mind that the 7th Daizenshuu was written back when the DBU was only comprised of four individual galaxies.



That said, I've always sort of disagreed with trying to canonize anime filler scenes for obvious reasons. I mean, where does it stop? Krillin hurting FPSSJ Goku with a rock? Mr. Popo casually subduing FPSSJ Goten and FPSSJ Trunks against their will? Pikkon one-shotting SPC? Saiyan saga Vegeta obliterating an entire planet with a casual, two-finger beam? Etc. Etc.

ermm

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm sure she can destroy a universe, given the time/chance. She isn't one-shotting a universe, though -- nor are the GoDs, for that matter. It has been made abundantly clear that Zen-Oh is the *only* being capable of doing that... If the GoDs were also capable of such, they likely wouldn't shit their pants at the mere thought of his power.

Honestly, when Beerus spoke of Zen-Oh's ability to one-shot the universe, he acted like such power was VASTLY beyond even his wildest dreams -- several orders of magnitude beyond him at the very least... and even UI Goku has yet to reach Beerus-levels of power(though it's imminent), and UI Goku > Kefla. So....

confused

Yes, I agree that Kefla can't oneshot a universe with a single ki-blast. I'm confident that she could destroy a universe in short-order, though, given we know even the likes of SSJG Goku "wield power capable of destroying the entire universe." Zen-Oh is the only being that can erase the universe by blinking, yes, but that doesn't preclude the GoD's being capable of destroying the universe in short order (as we see in the BoG arc and literally any time Beerus and Champa fight).

Gonna be honest, I don't recall Beerus specifically being in awe of Zen-Oh being able to oneshot a single universe. When Zen-Oh was introduced, Beerus seemed more frightened of Zen's ability to:

1: Destroy all 12 universes in the blink of an eye.

2: Erase anything he wants in an instant, no matter the scale.

3: Erase him and his universe.

Beerus is scared shitless of Zen-Oh not just because he can erase a universe, but erase Beerus, who wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it. None of this precludes a God of Destruction being capable of destroying a universe in short-order (though not oneshot).

I also think the bifurcation between erasure and mere destruction of the universe plays a big part in why Beerus fears Zen-Oh. Zen-Oh can literally erase him from existence on every conceivable level. That's scary.

Originally posted by Galan007
That line is actually from the 'Special Attacks' section of Daizenshuu 7(a lot of 'tards on the interweb will argue that it's from the 2nd Daizenshuu, but this is incorrect):

But if you watch the anime episode this 'attack' occurred in(remember, it was purely a filler scene that never occurred in the manga), you'll find that the universe would have only been destroyed in a chain reaction type of event, that was exclusive to Boo(han) alone... Not at all similar to wiping out the universe in one fell swoop with a single ki blast or whathaveyou.

*Also keep in mind that the 7th Daizenshuu was written back when the DBU was only comprised of four individual galaxies.

Well, if we want to look at quotes from the episode itself, I wouldn't necessarily call it a "chain reaction":

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111113182/3554168-1294604543-26687.jpg

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/8494/385650-dimension3_super.png

These, along with your quote, essentially show that Buuhan's screaming/anger was so powerful that it was tearing apart dimensional barriers to a significant enough extent that they would crush and annihilate the entire universe. Regardless of the technique itself being unique to Buu, Vegetto still broke through the barrier his dimension-altering rage was creating and smacked him around like it was nothing.

I figure that regardless of the means, if Buuhan can represent an imminent threat to the universe, certainly SSJ2 Kefla could, and then some.

And the whole "4 galaxies" thing, from what I've seen, is tough to definitively pin down. I've seen many statements from guidebooks implying that it's more apt to refer to them as "quadrants" or "areas" as opposed to 4 Milky Ways:

https://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/870828/828/37/2hiZxp.png

https://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/870828/828/36/18xdhV.png

https://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/870828/828/38/3IWXZT.png



I've also heard that there is no bifurcation between "galaxy" and "galaxies" in the Japanese language. So I'm not 100% sure DBZ ever had only 4 galaxies (in the scientific sense, like having 4 milky ways).

And then of course, Super outright confirms that there are countless galaxies in the universe. That may not necessarily be a retcon.

Originally posted by Galan007
That said, I've always sort of disagreed with trying to canonize anime filler scenes for obvious reasons. I mean, where does it stop? Krillin hurting FPSSJ Goku with a rock? Mr. Popo casually subduing FPSSJ Goten and FPSSJ Trunks against their will? Pikkon one-shotting SPC? Saiyan saga Vegeta obliterating an entire planet with a casual, two-finger beam? Etc. Etc.


Because it's stated to have occurred in the Daizenchuu, does it not have some degree of validity/canonicity? Could be wrong there.

Nevan
Originally posted by Galan007
Over time? Sure. In one fell swoop? Not imo.

It's been made clear that Zen-Oh is the only being in creation with the power to destroy a universe with a single attack... A level of power unthinkable to even the GoDs(that's why they quake in fear of Zen-Oh.)

So if you think Kefla can destroy a universe with a single attack, then where do you put UI Goku...where do you put Jiren!? blink Depends on what you mean by destroying a universe.

If you mean completely erasing a universe sized bubble of space-time, then GoD's can't do that.

If you mean just blowing everything up in a universe sized area probably including the sphere surrounding it, then GoD's have an explicit prohibition of fighting each-other because they may cause such destruction as merely collateral damage, and the whole SSG stuff too.

carver9
I agree with both Supremex and Nevan. Beerus even brought up the fact that he fears Zeno because he can ERASE all 12 Universes instantly. Like I said before, there is a HUGE difference in erasing a universe vs destroying one. Even though both are destructive, one is FAR more destructive and costly than the other.

Galan007
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, I agree that Kefla can't oneshot a universe with a single ki-blast. Good, because that's all I'm saying.

IOW, Kefla's statement to that effect is hyperbole and nothing more. smile

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Gonna be honest, I don't recall Beerus specifically being in awe of Zen-Oh being able to oneshot a single universe. Then you must have missed this:
https://i.imgur.com/TFWgzzn.jpg

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, if we want to look at quotes from the episode itself, I wouldn't necessarily call it a "chain reaction": Huh?

Boohan had the power to break down dimensional barrier after dimensional barrier. This act ultimately would have resulted in the destruction of the universe. That is the very definition of a chain reaction. confused

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And the whole "4 galaxies" thing, from what I've seen, is tough to definitively pin down. Lets put it this way: there is more evidence to suggest it was comprised of 4 individual galaxies, then there is to suggest it was comprised of more than 4 individual galaxies... Even Herms has said as much, for what it's worth.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And then of course, Super outright confirms that there are countless galaxies in the universe. That may not necessarily be a retcon. It IS a retcon, though. As you just said: it's exceedingly difficult to prove there were more than just a scant FOUR galaxies... DBS outright confirms there are COUNTLESS galaxies.

Flagrant cosmological retcon.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Because it's stated to have occurred in the Daizenchuu, does it not have some degree of validity/canonicity? Could be wrong there. Some, sure. But again, where does the canonization of anime filler scenes stop before we recall just how ridiculous most filler scenes really were..? (they are filler for a reason, after all.) stick out tongue

Galan007
Originally posted by Nevan
Depends on what you mean by destroying a universe.

If you mean completely erasing a universe sized bubble of space-time, then GoD's can't do that.

If you mean just blowing everything up in a universe sized area probably including the sphere surrounding it, then GoD's have an explicit prohibition of fighting each-other because they may cause such destruction as merely collateral damage, and the whole SSG stuff too. I KNOW a battle between GoDs can lay waste to the universe... That has never been in question.

As I have reiterated numerous times: I am talking about ONE character destroying the universe with a SINGLE attack. smile

Damborgson
Well Kefla wrecks him now.

carver9
Both Goku and Jiren shook the void by just powering up. The Void is>>>>>a Universe. I feel comfortable at saying both could one shot a universe.

cdtm
Originally posted by Galan007
I KNOW a battle between GoDs can lay waste to the universe... That has never been in question.

As I have reiterated numerous times: I am talking about ONE character destroying the universe with a SINGLE attack. smile

The universe claim also could have been hyperbole, just like Cell claiming he can destroy a solar system.

So far all we have is claims anyone but Zeno can destroy more than a planet. While every fight to date has only been planetary at best, and mountain busting on average. Sure, the fears are there, the claims are there.. Hasn't happened yet.

Consistency wise, if we were talking about anyone else (Odin, say), a universe buster would be a hard sell. I mean, Odin has a feat or two as well, yet most peg him as a galaxy buster because of how rare that is, and the circumstances behind them..

Or a better example may be Thor. Didn't a hammer swing reverberate throughout a universe, or dimensions or something? Slammed it into the weapon of another hero?

SSJGGogeta
Originally posted by Galan007
I KNOW a battle between GoDs can lay waste to the universe... That has never been in question.

As I have reiterated numerous times: I am talking about ONE character destroying the universe with a SINGLE attack. smile

Uh, yeah, any GoD could universe bust with a single attack. Beerus and Goku almost did this by clashing their fists three times, and Beerus and Champa would have destroyed two universes by colliding their two attacks, which presumably makes both attack a universe buster.

I can post scans as well, but you're denying sheer facts if you're arguing that Beerus can't universe bust with one attack. Even SSJG Goku produced a universe busting energy ball, and Beerus nullified it casually.

Ftr, SSJ2 Kefla is superior to even SSJG Goku, meaning she should be more than capable of universe busting with one attack.

Galan007
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Uh, yeah, any GoD could universe bust with a single attack. Beerus and Goku almost did this by clashing their fists three times, and Beerus and Champa would have destroyed two universes by colliding their two attacks, which presumably makes both attack a universe buster.

I can post scans as well, but you're denying sheer facts if you're arguing that Beerus can't universe bust with one attack. Even SSJG Goku produced a universe busting energy ball, and Beerus nullified it casually.

Ftr, SSJ2 Kefla is superior to even SSJG Goku, meaning she should be more than capable of universe busting with one attack. Heh, I was waiting for this to come up... Suffice to say, I find this line of logic very flawed...

You're saying that SSG Goku had the power to destroy the universe with a single attack... And since we now know Beerus was only using a VERY small percentage of his power against SSG Goku(given that he can casually trounce the much more powerful MSSB form like fodder), you're implying that Beerus is capable of universe busting with a mere micro-fraction of his power.... And if a micro-fraction of his power can destroy a universe, then his FULL power would logically enable him to EASILY wipe out the other 11 universes in one fell swoop... And if Beerus has anywhere near the amount of power required to destroy ALL 12 universes in one go, then why in the holy hell would he act like Zen-Oh's ability to do so makes him ungodly...ridiculously...astronomically...incomprehensibly powerful(even by GoD/Angel standards)..? If that were indeed the case, then Beerus' reaction to Zen-Oh would make absolutely NO sense -- but BY Beerus' reaction, it is abundently clear that Zen-Oh's ability to erase a universe(and beyond that, ALL 12 universes) is VAAAAASTLY beyond his own abilities. ermm



...Actually, please don't respond to any of the above, because it's possible that you DO think Beerus is that powerful for whatever reason -- and I'd rather not entertain that notion any further.

You can take the last word, but I'm done discussing this particular topic with you... Perhaps someone else will oblige you, though. thumb up

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.