US Prisons: How do we...

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dadudemon
The poor US Justice System is widely known throughout the US and the world as being highly ineffective, borderline barbaric, costly, and often abusive.

Several Facts to Digest:

1. The USA has the highest, both per capita and in raw numbers, number of people imprisoned, in the world. 1, 2, 3



2.The USA's average prison sentence is getting longer and longer with the recent average being 24 months (2010-2013). 4



3. Reasons why people are in prison, the overview: 5

https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2017.png


a) 1 in 5 are locked up for drug offenses (total prison population including local, state, and federal). 6

https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2017_drugs.png


b)46.3% of federal prisoners are incarcerated due to drug offenses: 7

https://i.imgur.com/Z8yomN2.png


c)39.5% are locked up for violent crimes: 5, 8



4. Recidivism (being rearrested) rates are 76.6% after 5 years for released offenders. 9



5. The USA incarcerates more juveniles than any other country in the world. 10

http://sarahwestall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/youth-incarceration.jpg




Please discuss solutions for these 5 points listed, here.


Some answers show a correlation between welfare and reduction in crime, some refer to education, some refer to changing how prisons function (changing them into reformation institutions as opposed to punishment facilities), and so forth.


Clearly, the US has a prison problem. We...just aren't doing it right.

Emperordmb
Legalize weed and psychedelics and decriminalize all drug use for a start.

socool8520
^ If you want to legalize drugs, I guess that drops the incarceration rates significantly.

What kind of reformation are talking about here DDM? Therapy, education, etc? I'm for that, but aren't those programs already available?

Steve Zodiac
Originally posted by dadudemon
The poor US Justice System is widely known throughout the US and the world as being highly ineffective, borderline barbaric, costly, and often abusive.

Several Facts to Digest:

1. The USA has the highest, both per capita and in raw numbers, number of people imprisoned, in the world. 1, 2, 3



2.The USA's average prison sentence is getting longer and longer with the recent average being 24 months (2010-2013). 4



3. Reasons why people are in prison, the overview: 5

https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2017.png


a) 1 in 5 are locked up for drug offenses (total prison population including local, state, and federal). 6

https://static.prisonpolicy.org/images/pie2017_drugs.png


b)46.3% of federal prisoners are incarcerated due to drug offenses: 7

https://i.imgur.com/Z8yomN2.png


c)39.5% are locked up for violent crimes: 5, 8



4. Recidivism (being rearrested) rates are 76.6% after 5 years for released offenders. 9



5. The USA incarcerates more juveniles than any other country in the world. 10

http://sarahwestall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/youth-incarceration.jpg




Please discuss solutions for these 5 points listed, here.


Some answers show a correlation between welfare and reduction in crime, some refer to education, some refer to changing how prisons function (changing them into reformation institutions as opposed to punishment facilities), and so forth.


Clearly, the US has a prison problem. We...just aren't doing it right. Look to the models of countries like Noway, where reoffending is low compared to the US. Prisoners with dignity and a chance to improve themselves are less likely to re-offend. Remember the removal of freedom is the punishment.

Flyattractor
I always love the "Reasoning" of how to Reduce Crime...Make Less Stuff ILLEGAL!

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Flyattractor
I always love the "Reasoning" of how to Reduce Crime...Make Less Stuff ILLEGAL!


I mean if it's drug use that doesn't violate anyone's rights then it seems pretty straightforward to not waste police resources, taxpayer money, and violate people's liberty and property to punish.

Flyattractor
SO make ALL Drugs Legal? Or just SOME Drugs?

Where do you draw the line? And if you LEGALIZE them all, how long till other Laws
are dropped because of it? How long till you trip on the Slippery Slope?

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Flyattractor
SO make ALL Drugs Legal? Or just SOME Drugs?
I said marijuana and psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, DMT, mescaline) should be legalized, and all other drug use should be decriminalized.

That doesn't mean other drugs can't be confiscated from people or that the dealers of those drugs can't be criminally prosecuted, but it means drug use and possession shouldn't be criminal offenses treated with the violation of liberty and property, they should be treated with rehabilitation.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Where do you draw the line? And if you LEGALIZE them all, how long till other Laws are dropped because of it? How long till you trip on the Slippery Slope?
Until other laws are dropped because of what?

The justification for legalizing and decriminalizing drugs is that it's an unnecessary burden on the government and law enforcement and that drug use isn't something that violates people's rights.

If your argument is that legalizing and decriminalizing drug use will lead to the legalization of actions that constitute a violation of someone else's rights then that's a really stupid argument.

Surtur
LSD....that's like psychological dynamite!

Kurk
@DMB how will you then address the issue of synthetic marijuana users running ass-naked on the streets or otherwise acting like zombies? Will it be their fault or the drugs? Do we blame drunk driving or alcohol?

On a side note, I'd hesitate to ever try a hallucinogenic myself unless I'm restrained because 110% confident I'd have a "bad trip" and hurt myself or others.

Anyway, I would only be for decriminalization/legalization of drugs if white-collar crimes were also lessened. Bernie Madoff should not get more years than a murderer/rapist.

Also, I'd really like amphetamines (adderall/ritalin) to be deregulated (I'm a college student can you guess why???)

dadudemon
Originally posted by Flyattractor
SO make ALL Drugs Legal? Or just SOME Drugs?

Where do you draw the line? And if you LEGALIZE them all, how long till other Laws
are dropped because of it? How long till you trip on the Slippery Slope?

I had this argument/debate with inimalist and he, who speaks from a position of authority on the topic, believes that legalizing all drugs is not appropriate. Some examples I threw out there were meth and krokodil. Those are probably drugs that, even as recreational use, are never okay. However, I still think we should legalize it all. I am open to compromise and agree that perhaps not legalization for all but just decriminalization. Is there a difference?

Anyway, as the numbers show, legalizing drugs would only tackle 1/5 of the incarceration problems. And as SirWhirlySplatt pointed out, reducing recidivism has clear solutions and we can look to other countries who are more successful with it.


But drugs are only 1/5 of the problem. I do not have the numbers but IIRC, Government, Incaceration, Justice, and Law Enforcement related to drugs costs us hundreds of billions (trillions?). F*** it, I'll look it up.

$76 billion a year.

https://elevationshealth.com/annual-cost-war-on-drugs/

Let's end the war on drugs. Legalize all drugs (or at least decriminalize them). Pardon all non-violent drug offenders currently incarcerated. Watch how crime goes down over the next 10 years.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/13/heres-how-legal-pot-changed-colorado-and-washington/?utm_term=.72f0ccedd815

Surtur
Originally posted by Kurk
@DMB how will you then address the issue of synthetic marijuana users running ass-naked on the streets or otherwise acting like zombies? Will it be their fault or the drugs? Do we blame drunk driving or alcohol?

On a side note, I'd hesitate to ever try a hallucinogenic myself unless I'm restrained because 110% confident I'd have a "bad trip" and hurt myself or others.

Anyway, I would only be for decriminalization/legalization of drugs if white-collar crimes were also lessened. Bernie Madoff should not get more years than a murderer/rapist.

Also, I'd really like amphetamines (adderall/ritalin) to be deregulated (I'm a college student can you guess why???)

I demand that you beware of the dangers of marijuana. Did you know it can lead to wierd parties and wild diversions?

u3ty-cbML5E

Robtard
Ending private for profit prisons would be a good start.

socool8520
That Washington Post article was encouraging in the case of Marijuana. I don't think results would be similar in drugs such as Crack/Cocaine or Meth for example.

Even 1/5 is a pretty substantial start for lowering incarceration.

As far as prisons go, I am for education and therapy programs. I'm fine with them working for no pay. You are being punished. They shouldn't be getting to watch TV or anything. Books and newspapers imo.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kurk
@DMB how will you then address the issue of synthetic marijuana users running ass-naked on the streets or otherwise acting like zombies? Will it be their fault or the drugs? Do we blame drunk driving or alcohol?
If people are responsible in their drug use let them be responsible and leave them alone. If they are irresponsible and break laws punish them for the laws they break. That's always been my stance on prohibition of things.

Originally posted by Kurk
On a side note, I'd hesitate to ever try a hallucinogenic myself unless I'm restrained because 110% confident I'd have a "bad trip" and hurt myself or others.
I mean if you're that worried about it it's a better idea not to do so yeah.

snowdragon
Decriminalizing drugs would be a huge help. Reducing recidivism would need to extend beyond just the criminal system. As a society we need to relook how we view past crinimal behaviors. Anyone filling out an employment form and getting a background check with a crinimal history is going to be automatically kicked out of many potential jobs. Then we have the cycle of poverty and crime with the indivduals again. Why can't felons vote that have paid for their crimes........

USA, USA the land of the free, home of the jailed.

Prisons for profits, making Murika better 1$ dollar at a time with each new inmate.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Robtard
Ending private for profit prisons would be a good start.
This is something I vehemently agree with Democrats on. Private prisons create a lobby in favor of people being in jail and that's a disgusting profit incentive to create.

snowdragon
Originally posted by Emperordmb
This is something I vehemently agree with Democrats on. Private prisons create a lobby in favor of people being in jail and that's a disgusting profit incentive to create.

It goes even beyond private prisons, we also know that police have ticket quotas to fund the local coffers as well.

Scribble
Originally posted by dadudemon
And as SirWhirlySplatt pointed out, reducing recidivism has clear solutions and we can look to other countries who are more successful with it. Hold up, hold up. I know this is off-topic, but Steve Zodiac is Whirly?

socool8520
I thought he was Stop the Hate

dadudemon
Originally posted by Scribble
Hold up, hold up. I know this is off-topic, but Steve Zodiac is Whirly?

Yyyyes?

I didn't even know this was in question... confused

socool8520
I didn't know who that was.

Scribble
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yyyyes?

I didn't even know this was in question... confused I just had no idea. Makes perfect sense though now.

cdtm
Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
Look to the models of countries like Noway, where reoffending is low compared to the US. Prisoners with dignity and a chance to improve themselves are less likely to re-offend. Remember the removal of freedom is the punishment.

I know nothing about Norway, but are we talking about similar socio-economic backgrounds here?

A person living in a decent environment with solid job prospects vs someone living in a ghetto, huge difference.

It's like trying to compare India with Japan. Most are dirt poor in India, so of course you'll get a lot more crime/exploitation.

dadudemon
Originally posted by cdtm
I know nothing about Norway, but are we talking about similar socio-economic backgrounds here?

A person living in a decent environment with solid job prospects vs someone living in a ghetto, huge difference.

It's like trying to compare India with Japan. Most are dirt poor in India, so of course you'll get a lot more crime/exploitation.

This is an interesting question/point.


The theory goes:


"Yeah, well, China and India grossly under-enforce the law and their prisons are so empty because it is nearly impossible to catch, prosecute, and incarcerate all their criminals."


I honestly have no retort or rebuttal to that argument. It very well could be true. Perhaps the US is 30x more effective and catching and prosecuting criminals compared to India and China.


Perhaps someone more directly educated in Criminology could inject some intelligence into this particular point? The closest I can come to exploring this point would be the idea of arrests vs. reports. Meaning, does the US vastly differ from places like China and India, on available data on victim reports/surveys and arrests?

Kurk
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I mean if it's drug use that doesn't violate anyone's rights then it seems pretty straightforward to not waste police resources, taxpayer money, and violate people's liberty and property to punish. What about taxpayer money on universal healthcare? Will healthcare resources not be wasted on idiots destroying their health?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Kurk
What about taxpayer money on universal healthcare? Will healthcare resources not be wasted on idiots destroying their health?

Actually!!! This is a great question. Healthcare for drug users reduces crime and saves money:






https://www.forbes.com/2010/06/22/health-care-crime-drugs-opinions-contributors-rachel-barkow-david-edwards.html#2ae857e9632c

TL - DR summary of the above: treat drug problems reduces drug selling, recidivism, drug use, and costs much less.


This is part of why I'm such a strong advocate of legalizing all drugs and spending just 1/10th of the Drug War money on healthcare.


Is there any research out there for crime and universal healthcare? There should be a positive correlation between an inverse relationship between UHC and crime rates. That's my guess. No way that could be anything but a minimum of statistically significant.

Emperordmb

Kurk
Damn, I wish Duterte was our president. He personally rides around on a motorcycle and kills methheads and their dealers.

Robtard
He's also likely the biggest drug dealer in the Philippines, so you might want to check your mancrush

Surtur
Originally posted by socool8520
I thought he was Stop the Hate

He is lol, and other names too. He has been banned many times. Yet he is allowed to post, while certain other socks aren't. Weird.

Surtur
Duterte is a piece of dog shit.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Robtard
He's also likely the biggest drug dealer in the Philippines, so you might want to check your mancrush

h-how does that even make sense? why would a dealer kill all his customers? confused

Scribble
Originally posted by Surtur
He is lol, and other names too. He has been banned many times. Yet he is allowed to post, while certain other socks aren't. Weird. Back in't' day, a classic Whirly would last around 1 or 2 minutes. And there were thousands.

Surtur
Originally posted by NewGuy01
h-how does that even make sense? why would a dealer kill all his customers? confused

The drug he deals is DEATH!!!

BackFire
A few things to improve our prison system.

1. Ditch for profit prisons. They have no actual benefit to society and are counter productive. If someone is profiting off of someone else being incarcerated then there will inevitably be a conflict of interest. It's unavoidable.

2. Minimize/remove non violent drug offenses. No one should do hard time for doing a drug in their own home. Instead, legalize things like weed and treat it as we treat alcohol and tobacco, both of which are more harmful than weed. Tax it, regulate it. For other harder drugs, instead of sending users to do hard time, send them to get help for their addictions. The goal should be to get them off drugs, not ruin their lives even more.

3. The goal for everything should be rehabilitation if it is at all possible rather than stark punishment. Once someone has been rehabilitated get them out of the prison system and back into society on the grounds that they have to contribute in some way - join the military, make sure they have a job, go to school, etc.

There should also be no mandatory minimum sentences. Those things are stupid and achieve diddly shit.

Surtur
All I'm gonna say is...why don't we take child molesters and murderers and execute them and harvest their body parts for organ donations?

cdtm
Originally posted by BackFire
A few things to improve our prison system.

1. Ditch for profit prisons. They have no actual benefit to society and are counter productive. If someone is profiting off of someone else being incarcerated then there will inevitably be a conflict of interest. It's unavoidable.

2. Minimize/remove non violent drug offenses. No one should do hard time for doing a drug in their own home. Instead, legalize things like weed and treat it as we treat alcohol and tobacco, both of which are more harmful than weed. Tax it, regulate it. For other harder drugs, instead of sending users to do hard time, send them to get help for their addictions. The goal should be to get them off drugs, not ruin their lives even more.

3. The goal for everything should be rehabilitation if it is at all possible rather than stark punishment. Once someone has been rehabilitated get them out of the prison system and back into society on the grounds that they have to contribute in some way - join the military, make sure they have a job, go to school, etc.

There should also be no mandatory minimum sentences. Those things are stupid and achieve diddly shit.

These things all make sense, and I wish there was a way to reform the system.

I mean, try telling the people profiting off the system "Hey, you shouldn't be profiting off this!"

Or worse, tell the people we need to jack up taxes to pay for better, more humane prisons. And then making sure the administrators and legislators properly use those funds..

Biggest problem is motive. Profit, EVERYONE is for it. But sacrificing for a social good..? If anyone's really motivated by abstract ethics, there sure doesn't seem to be enough of them.

Scribble
Originally posted by Surtur
All I'm gonna say is...why don't we take child molesters and murderers and execute them and harvest their body parts for organ donations? Alright there, Lawful Evil.

cdtm
Originally posted by Scribble
Alright there, Lawful Evil.

I'd trade a world of lawful evil over the neutral evil/chaotic evil we seem to have now.

At least those who suffer cruel and unusual punishment's will mostly deserve them for a change.. (Vs the opposition "true neutral", or "lawful good" we have now, who basically send the evil murderers and rapists of the world into a cell with cable TV.. Rest in hell, Charles Manson..)

Surtur
Originally posted by Scribble
Alright there, Lawful Evil.

A little girl just died of eye cancer because you refused to give her the eyes of a child molester.

How dare you.

shiv
Make owning a gun something which you have to have a twice yearly health check for (a health check from the neck up) (paid for by you or your sponsor)

You fail this. You lose your Guns.

This would help lower property, robbery, violent offences

Community Service

The first and second prison sentences handed out for offences should be light.

You get your day or week in jail.

If its an 18 or 24 month sentence you serve that sentence by reporting to your local police station - every day for 18 or however long that sentence is - months - and you're tasked with unpaid work assignments by your local government.

And while you're doing this unpaid work - if it becomes clear you need help with something - you get help.

If its your third strike = you're doing time Working Monday to Friday, 3 hours night school every day, Saturday, Sunday Off.

If the reason you're doing crime is to get bread - what you need is to be in a job - not a prison.

As others have stated

Make it illegal for employers to ask applicants about their criminal record.

Unless you've been assessed as a deeply flawed harmful personality ie: a serial killer or something Your criminal record can't be disclosed to your employer.

And yeah no private (for profit) prisons

Every single prison should be a prison which has a product on the market (with state and federal oversight on earnings)

And every single person walking out of a prison should have the skill and work experience to interview and get a job.

And no movies, tv, internet, games, ciggarettes, phones or commissary.

dadudemon
Originally posted by shiv
Make owning a gun something which you have to have a twice yearly health check for (a health check from the neck up) (paid for by you or your sponsor)

You fail this. You lose your Guns.

This would help lower property, robbery, violent offences


No it wouldn't, shiv. Sadly, it shifts the violence to some other thing like knives, clubs, and fists. As I've posted, with citations, before...the US doesn't have a gun problem, we have a violence problem. And as I've also posted, before, other countries with far fewer guns and far stricter gun laws, have higher violence rates (Russia).

To be successful with reducing violence, don't try and tackle US Violence via guns (or other tools used to commit violence). Tackle the actual violence, itself. Tackle and solve the reasons violence happens as opposed to how the violence happens.

Originally posted by shiv
Community Service

The first and second prison sentences handed out for offences should be light.

You get your day or week in jail.

If its an 18 or 24 month sentence you serve that sentence by reporting to your local police station - every day for 18 or however long that sentence is - months - and you're tasked with unpaid work assignments by your local government.

And while you're doing this unpaid work - if it becomes clear you need help with something - you get help.

If its your third strike = you're doing time Working Monday to Friday, 3 hours night school every day, Saturday, Sunday Off.

If the reason you're doing crime is to get bread - what you need is to be in a job - not a prison.


This is a decent idea but it is slavery. The problem, already, is those in poverty commit the lionshare of the crimes. So making people work for free, who are already impoverished, does not solve the crime problem. Making them work more and earn more pay, however, has been demonstrated to not only reduce overall crime, but decrease recidivism.

The process goes like this:

Educate them -> Counsel Them -> Treat them (mental health, medical health) -> Train them -> Reintegrate them -> Help them make money for themselves -> exit the system as fully functioning members of society


Now, some of the above can and do occur simultaneously, of course. But that's the general process that has been proven, quite thoroughly, to reduce crime, reduce recidivism, and increase productivity.


Of course, that's tackling the problem AFTER they become criminals. There are also proven ways to tackle the problems BEFORE they commit crimes.

Originally posted by shiv
As others have stated

Make it illegal for employers to ask applicants about their criminal record.

Unless you've been assessed as a deeply flawed harmful personality ie: a serial killer or something Your criminal record can't be disclosed to your employer.


I can agree to this. Sounds fair.

Originally posted by shiv
And yeah no private (for profit) prisons

Every single prison should be a prison which has a product on the market (with state and federal oversight on earnings)

thumb up

Originally posted by shiv
And every single person walking out of a prison should have the skill and work experience to interview and get a job.

thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up

Originally posted by shiv
And no movies, tv, internet, games, cigarettes, phones or commissary.

I disagree, somewhat. They should be incentives for good behavior and progress.



Very good post, shiv. Very much appreciate you putting so many ideas out there.

dadudemon
Crime rates by income:


https://c24215cec6c97b637db6-9c0895f07c3474f6636f95b6bf3db172.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/interactives/2014/ten-economic-facts-about-crime/assets/crimefig2.png


Add the first 2 columns together and they are greater than the last 2 columns, added together. Which is what I meant by "the poor commit the lionshare of crimes."

Steve Zodiac
Originally posted by dadudemon
Crime rates by income:


https://c24215cec6c97b637db6-9c0895f07c3474f6636f95b6bf3db172.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/interactives/2014/ten-economic-facts-about-crime/assets/crimefig2.png


Add the first 2 columns together and they are greater than the last 2 columns, added together. Which is what I meant by "the poor commit the lionshare of crimes." Of course they do, social inequality and lack of opportunity create underclasses. The Sociology of Poverty makes this clear. You have two types of poor (you actually have a lot of subgroups). Those resigned to failing in the system and those who turn their back on the system.

Steve Zodiac
Originally posted by Scribble
Hold up, hold up. I know this is off-topic, but Steve Zodiac is Whirly?

Hail to the King baby smile

Nice to see you smile

Raisen
Originally posted by BackFire
A few things to improve our prison system.

1. Ditch for profit prisons. They have no actual benefit to society and are counter productive. If someone is profiting off of someone else being incarcerated then there will inevitably be a conflict of interest. It's unavoidable.

2. Minimize/remove non violent drug offenses. No one should do hard time for doing a drug in their own home. Instead, legalize things like weed and treat it as we treat alcohol and tobacco, both of which are more harmful than weed. Tax it, regulate it. For other harder drugs, instead of sending users to do hard time, send them to get help for their addictions. The goal should be to get them off drugs, not ruin their lives even more.

3. The goal for everything should be rehabilitation if it is at all possible rather than stark punishment. Once someone has been rehabilitated get them out of the prison system and back into society on the grounds that they have to contribute in some way - join the military, make sure they have a job, go to school, etc.

There should also be no mandatory minimum sentences. Those things are stupid and achieve diddly shit.

thumb up

it can be done. just need to change our general mindset.

cdtm
Originally posted by Raisen
thumb up

it can be done. just need to change our general mindset.

Mindsets the big problem.

The thing is, if you can get enough people behind prison reform, things will happen. Pressure works both miracles, and tragedies (On the second point, a town park was shut down because of a cancer causing element seeping from the grass. Cue public uproar, and the park opens. A lot of kids get cancer.)

As to the first point, the problem is, prison reform doesn't really have a strong advocate. At best, we can talk about incarceration statistics by race, but even civil rights activists don't really give a crap about what happens to a man in prison. All they care about, is keeping black men out of the system.

With no advocacy group, there's no money. No money, no political capital.

So nothing changes. The people don't want change enough to put their money where their mouth is.

Raisen
Originally posted by cdtm
Mindsets the big problem.

The thing is, if you can get enough people behind prison reform, things will happen. Pressure works both miracles, and tragedies (On the second point, a town park was shut down because of a cancer causing element seeping from the grass. Cue public uproar, and the park opens. A lot of kids get cancer.)

As to the first point, the problem is, prison reform doesn't really have a strong advocate. At best, we can talk about incarceration statistics by race, but even civil rights activists don't really give a crap about what happens to a man in prison. All they care about, is keeping black men out of the system.

With no advocacy group, there's no money. No money, no political capital.

So nothing changes. The people don't want change enough to put their money where their mouth is.

most people are weak and complacent now. we have just enough goodies to extinguish any real passion.

it's like training falcons for the hunt. if you give the falcon too much food it will fly away and you may never see it again. if you feed it just enough but keep it a tiny bit hungry...it will stay with you waiting for another morsel.

people are the same. just enough to be a little hungry and ***** about change...but not enough conviction to possibly lose what they have.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
Hail to the King baby smile

Nice to see you smile

So Steve is a Sock/Alt.


Nice to know.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by dadudemon
1. The USA has the highest, both per capita and in raw numbers, number of people imprisoned, in the world. 1, 2, 3 Isn't it interesting how the Greatest Country in the World keeps turning out to be the Worst in so many things? mmm

Flyattractor
No. It isn't. We just have the means and capability to PUNISH People when they break out laws. Its other countries that let them run rampant in their streets. Like the LARGE NO GO ZONES in European Cities.

SO Tired of seeing the US Hating People like Beny try to spread that lie. But then He is a Rich Elitst so He has to keep his Political Pay Masters Happy.

Beniboybling
laughing out loud

Alright Flyboy. sad

Flyattractor
Awww. You Laugh and Frown at the Same time.

You must be so confused.

ArtificialGlory

Flyattractor
And Who has been in charge of Chicago for a few decades now? Which Political Party is that again?

Hmmmm?????

Flyattractor
So by YOUR LOGIC to Get Rid of Crime we should just make Less Stuff a Crime?

That makes sense...


smokin'

ArtificialGlory

Flyattractor
Yeah. It kinda does.


And should ALL drugs be Legal? Or just certain ones?

Explain why you think so?

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Yeah. It kinda does.


And should ALL drugs be Legal? Or just certain ones?

Explain why you think so?
No, it hardly makes a difference.

Not necessarily legal, but decriminalized.

This video does a much better job at explaining why than I ever could and I sincerely suggest you watch it:

wJUXLqNHCaI

Flyattractor
Well I should hope so...Especially after that "Not necessarily Legal but Decriminalized" Line.


But ya know what. It is now Turkey Day. I aint putting up with this shit until the weekend. PITS OFF LOOSERS!!!!!!!!

Beniboybling
oh dear.

dadudemon
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
No, it hardly makes a difference.

Not necessarily legal, but decriminalized.

This video does a much better job at explaining why than I ever could and I sincerely suggest you watch it:

wJUXLqNHCaI


As I pointed out in the OP, drug related incarceration doesn't even comprise a majority. However, it is still a huge chunk.


I did not know about Switzerland's heroin issue and harm reduction policy. That's fascinating. Amazing. It is very cool what using legit science and research can do when it informs public policy. I'd like to see the US try this.

Afro Cheese

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Everybody has the capacity to throw people in jails. We just have the most capacity since we have the most money. Same reason why Our military is way bigger than theirs... I believe it comes down to budget. I doubt China has anywhere near the capacity to lock up all of their criminals... in fact, they probably have to turn a blind eye on some criminals in order to make room for the political prisoners.
There are plenty of First World countries who have more than enough money and capacity to do so if they wished(some of them are even wealthier than the US per capita). Now I don't know about China, but they take crime pretty seriously last I heard. Not to mention, it's a country of 1.4 billion people, so even if they let half of their criminals walk around free, it'd still have many more prisoners than the US.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by dadudemon
It is very cool what using legit science and research can do when it informs public policy. I'd like to see the US try this. I'd like to see them try it too. laughing out loud

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
There are plenty of First World countries who have more than enough money and capacity to do so if they wished(some of them are even wealthier than the US per capita). Now I don't know about China, but they take crime pretty seriously last I heard. Not to mention, it's a country of 1.4 billion people, so even if they let half of their criminals walk around free, it'd still have many more prisoners than the US. The countries that are richer per capita are also smaller and probably have far less crime.

China is a completely different scenario and isn't really useful for comparison purposes since they throw people in prison for being the wrong religion. I dunno if they just don't have much crime cause people are too scared of the state or if they just let people get away with shit out of lack of funds... but despite their lower prison population they do manage to execute the most people yearly.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
The countries that are richer per capita are also smaller and probably have far less crime.

China is a completely different scenario and isn't really useful for comparison purposes since they throw people in prison for being the wrong religion. I dunno if they just don't have much crime cause people are too scared of the state or if they just let people get away with shit out of lack of funds... but despite their lower prison population they do manage to execute the most people yearly.
Well yeah, but that's the point of looking at things per capita. If a country like Germany wanted to imprison the same percentage of its population as the US, it would easily have both the money and the capacity to do so.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd like to see them try it too. laughing out loud

Only the Left can use "Made Up Science" to scare and force others to do what they want.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
No, it hardly makes a difference.

Not necessarily legal, but decriminalized.

This video does a much better job at explaining why than I ever could and I sincerely suggest you watch it:

wJUXLqNHCaI

LOL! My Fave Part of the vid was how it commented on how the War on DRUGS has Negatively affected Millions of People, but No Mention of how Drug Use has Negatively Affected People... SO yeah...
eek!

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
LOL! My Fave Part of the vid was how it commented on how the War on DRUGS has Negatively affected Millions of People, but No Mention of how Drug Use has Negatively Affected People... SO yeah...
eek!
Yeah, because the War on Drugs didn't actually reduce drug use in any substantial way, if at all.

Flyattractor
So we should just dismantle all aspects of "Law Enforcement"
Because that would be the Easiest thing to do.

Gotchya.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
So we should just dismantle all aspects of "Law Enforcement"
Because that would be the Easiest thing to do.

Gotchya.
Where did you get that idea from? Did anything I ever say or anything the video said suggest we get rid of law enforcement?

Flyattractor
From the Prevailing Mentality of " Since we Can't Stop It, we Should't TRY". Can't Stop Rape, Can't Stop Murder, Can't Stop Theft, Can't Stop Drugs. SHOULDN'T even TRY!

Pretty much sums it up for the Modern Left.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
From the Prevailing Mentality of " Since we Can't Stop It, we Should't TRY". Can't Stop Rape, Can't Stop Murder, Can't Stop Theft, Can't Stop Drugs. SHOULDN'T even TRY!

Pretty much sums it up for the Modern Left.
That's not quite true. We should still try to stop large-scale production of drugs and illegal importation(smuggling) of drugs, especially hard drugs. Though that hasn't been working out too well either, and the efficiency of such enforcement is low.

What we really should stop doing is treating drug usage or small-scale possession as crimes and throwing people in jails for it. We should focus on harm reduction and rehabilitation because that's what will ultimately reduce drug usage and minimize damage to society as a whole.

Flyattractor
Ok so I ask again.. Which "DRUGS" should be "Decriminalized"??

Or should I just go with the "MY drugs are Ok, but Your's are not" concept?

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Ok so I ask again.. Which "DRUGS" should be "Decriminalized"??

Or should I just go with the "MY drugs are Ok, but Your's are not" concept?
All drugs should be decriminalized. And I trust you know the difference between legalization and decriminalization.

Flyattractor
Why don't you give us YOUR Definition of it just so we are clear.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Why don't you give us YOUR Definition of it just so we are clear.
Legalization = you can walk into a store and buy the drug openly and legally(think weed in Colorado).
Decriminalization = you won't have criminal charges pressed against you for usage or small-scale possession of a drug.

Flyattractor
How Small? Let me guess. You are a big Dope Addict?

Much like your On Line name. You need Weed to be what you would deem "Truly Happy"?

Or to be more accurate. "ARTIFICIALLY HAPPY"?

Goes back to the point. We shouldn't fight crime.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
How Small? Let me guess. You are a big Dope Addict?

Much like your On Line name. You need Weed to be what you would deem "Truly Happy"?

Or to be more accurate. "ARTIFICIALLY HAPPY"?

Goes back to the point. We shouldn't fight crime.
That's for the law to decide, but if you have barrels of meth in your basement, then you're obviously going to try to sell it and that should be a crime.

No, I don't and never have used drugs. And honestly, I don't think someone named 'Flyattractor' should be throwing stones. You know, glass houses and all that.

We should fight crime that's actually crime. Drug usage is almost always a problem of a different nature and treating drug users as criminals is stupid and counterproductive.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Flyattractor
LOL! My Fave Part of the vid was how it commented on how the War on DRUGS has Negatively affected Millions of People, but No Mention of how Drug Use has Negatively Affected People... SO yeah...
eek!

This is a non sequitur argument. As AG pointed out, the War on Drugs did not affect drug use.


And if someone points you to facts about it, you'll just pretend the facts are made up from the leftist agenda. So there's no reasoning with someone like you.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
So we should just dismantle all aspects of "Law Enforcement"
Because that would be the Easiest thing to do.

Gotchya.

This is a strawman. At no point did any say or suggest to dismantle all aspects of law enforcement. Unless you erroneously believe that all law enforcement exists to fight the war on drugs. That's obviously false but i would not put it past you to believe something so stupid.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
From the Prevailing Mentality of " Since we Can't Stop It, we Should't TRY". Can't Stop Rape, Can't Stop Murder, Can't Stop Theft, Can't Stop Drugs. SHOULDN'T even TRY!

Pretty much sums it up for the Modern Left.

This is another strawman. At no point did anyone suggest we shouldn't try. In fact, it was suggested we do things differently that have an objectively higher success rate for reducing drug related crimes and drug use.

Doing things differently, based on science is not "we will stop trying, I guess!"

Raisen
fly. you can't be this simple and mentally conditioned

Flyattractor
What is simple about it?

I don't deal in grays.

If you want to do Drugs, move to wear it is LEGAL! Leave the places that don't want to give in to your illicit Vices be.

You want to waste your life as a burned out leech. All the power to you.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
That's for the law to decide, but if you have barrels of meth in your basement, then you're obviously going to try to sell it and that should be a crime.




I sincerely doubt this.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
What is simple about it?

I don't deal in grays.

If you want to do Drugs, move to wear it is LEGAL! Leave the places that don't want to give in to your illicit Vices be.

You want to waste your life as a burned out leech. All the power to you.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
What is simple about it?

I don't deal in grays.

If you want to do Drugs, move to wear it is LEGAL! Leave the places that don't want to give in to your illicit Vices be.

You want to waste your life as a burned out leech. All the power to you.
Then you better start dealing in grays because while black and white do exist, most of the world is gray.

The easiest thing is to say, "if you don't like how things are done over here, just move". That's not how it works though, because if it did, the US would still have Jim Crow laws, anti-sodomy laws, and the Prohibition(the War on Booze) would still be around. Would you make an argument in favour of the misguided policies I just mentioned? I imagine not. Laws and policies that do more harm than good need to be challenged and struck down.

If you want fewer burnt out addicts and leeches around, then a serious change in policy is in order. Starting with abolition of the counterproductive War on Drugs.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
I sincerely doubt this.
Why? Why else would anyone produce drugs on a large scale?

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Well yeah, but that's the point of looking at things per capita. If a country like Germany wanted to imprison the same percentage of its population as the US, it would easily have both the money and the capacity to do so. I'm not saying European countries lack the capacity... I was thinking more of third worldish countries such as China.

European countries are more lax it seems with a lot of their sentencing. On the extreme end of the spectrum, I remember that shooter in Norway who killed like 70+ people was only given like 25 years or something like that because that's the maximum sentence in Norway. I doubt most Americans would even think of adopting that sort of a policy.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Then you better start dealing in grays because while black and white do exist, most of the world is gray.


Gray is still Dirty. If you choose to do DIRTY, then that makes you a Wrong Doer.
No matter how you Like to Rationalize it, You are still doing WRONG!

And that is why the world is a "GRAY" Place...


eek!

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I'm not saying European countries lack the capacity... I was thinking more of third worldish countries such as China.

European countries are more lax it seems with a lot of their sentencing. On the extreme end of the spectrum, I remember that shooter in Norway who killed like 70+ people was only given like 25 years or something like that because that's the maximum sentence in Norway. I doubt most Americans would even think of adopting that sort of a policy.
Yeah, like I said, I don't know about China. Still, even if they let over half of all their criminals go, they'd still have way more people in prisons than the US.

You're talking about Breivik. He got 21 years because that's the maximum in Norway, but in reality he's never getting out since Norwegian law allows for extension of a prisoner's sentence if he/she is still deemed dangerous after his/her sentence is over. Not such a bad system if you ask me.
Originally posted by Flyattractor


Gray is still Dirty. If you choose to do DIRTY, then that makes you a Wrong Doer.
No matter how you Like to Rationalize it, You are still doing WRONG!

And that is why the world is a "GRAY" Place...


eek!
That's Manichean nonsense. No wonder you seem to be so disconnected from reality when you hold such a simplistic worldview. The desire to see everything in black and white, perhaps ironically, leads to evil as positive change is refused for not being perfect(white) enough. Your resistance to ending the War on Drugs is a great example of this.

Beniboybling
Flyboy is a good example of why the war on drugs isn't working. sad

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Yeah, like I said, I don't know about China. Still, even if they let over half of all their criminals go, they'd still have way more people in prisons than the US.

You're talking about Breivik. He got 21 years because that's the maximum in Norway, but in reality he's never getting out since Norwegian law allows for extension of a prisoner's sentence if he/she is still deemed dangerous after his/her sentence is over. Not such a bad system if you ask me.

That's Manichean nonsense. No wonder you seem to be so disconnected from reality when you hold such a simplistic worldview. The desire to see everything in black and white, perhaps ironically, leads to evil as positive change is refused for not being perfect(white) enough. Your resistance to ending the War on Drugs is a great example of this. Well, when you're dealing with 1.5 billion people, many of whom are in abject poverty, I'm thinking it will get a bit costly to have the kind of robust prison system the United States has. My only point is we're always so quick to point out our own flaws, but I reject the basic idea that China has any sort of edge on us in terms of their criminal justice system. They execute the most people annually and they lock people up for thought crimes. So I guess I'm just saying there can be any number of reasons why China has less prisoners... but it's not because they're less of a police state.

In fact.. they've been busted not only for locking up political prisoners but for extorting slave labor out of them in prison work camps. Prisoners work in some sort of manufacturing environment and make products which are then sold to front companies which sell the goods on the free market as goods that were made by legit paid workers. The name of the Chinese prison camps is the Loagai... which translates in Chinese to an abbreviated form of some phrase that means "reform through labor."

On Norway... I didn't realize they could just extend it like that. Sort of renders the rule useless to me, but I do think that's better than having a real 21 year maximum.

cdtm
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Well, when you're dealing with 1.5 billion people, many of whom are in abject poverty, I'm thinking it will get a bit costly to have the kind of robust prison system the United States has. My only point is we're always so quick to point out our own flaws, but I reject the basic idea that China has any sort of edge on us in terms of their criminal justice system. They execute the most people annually and they lock people up for thought crimes. So I guess I'm just saying there can be any number of reasons why China has less prisoners... but it's not because they're less of a police state.

In fact.. they've been busted not only for locking up political prisoners but for extorting slave labor out of them in prison work camps. Prisoners work in some sort of manufacturing environment and make products which are then sold to front companies which sell the goods on the free market as goods that were made by legit paid workers. The name of the Chinese prison camps is the Loagai... which translates in Chinese to an abbreviated form of some phrase that means "reform through labor."

On Norway... I didn't realize they could just extend it like that. Sort of renders the rule useless to me, but I do think that's better than having a real 21 year maximum.

"Reform through labor".

When they say the pen is mightier then the sword, this is part of what that means. Simply redefine slave labor as "rehab" (Or in the case of undocumented migrants being held hostage by a business that knows they can't go to the police or quit their jobs, of people looking for a better life who we shouldn't meddle with..)

Rockydonovang
"Reform through labor" is just a fancy name for slavery. And it's immoral for us to further punish people who have already been punished.

Reform through labor should be
A. Optional
B. Something priosoners want to do because the goverment would offer a cleansing of the permanent record and a salary in exchange.

Surtur
I'm all for reforming people...who haven't committed serious crimes. Murder or rape, on the other hand, you die or you get castrated or you get solitary confinement forever.

Emperordmb
"Rapists get castrated or killed"-Ben Shapiro

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
"Reform through labor" is just a fancy name for slavery. And it's immoral for us to further punish people who have already been punished.

Reform through labor should be
A. Optional
B. Something priosoners want to do because the goverment would offer a cleansing of the permanent record and a salary in exchange. Yea... but it's China. So instead it's mainly political or religious prisoners who are exploited for slave labor.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Yeah, like I said, I don't know about China. Still, even if they let over half of all their criminals go, they'd still have way more people in prisons than the US.

You're talking about Breivik. He got 21 years because that's the maximum in Norway, but in reality he's never getting out since Norwegian law allows for extension of a prisoner's sentence if he/she is still deemed dangerous after his/her sentence is over. Not such a bad system if you ask me.

That's Manichean nonsense. No wonder you seem to be so disconnected from reality when you hold such a simplistic worldview. The desire to see everything in black and white, perhaps ironically, leads to evil as positive change is refused for not being perfect(white) enough. Your resistance to ending the War on Drugs is a great example of this.

Yep. Sure it is. That is called RATIONALIZING to a Fine Point.

That is why you are pretty much a horrible person. AG.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
Flyboy is a good example of why the war on drugs isn't working. sad

Love is My Drug Benny. Whats yours?

ArtificialGlory

Flyattractor
yeah. Its the POLICY that is harmful, not the WANTON DRUG USE!

And you accuse me of living in a DREAM WORLD!

ArtificialGlory

Flyattractor
....THAt is a Load of LEFTY PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT!

Or to put it another way.

https://media.tenor.com/images/2d3213bc8de1d9085e69d16660b80fa1/tenor.gif

Or just a positive sign that AF is at heart an ungrateful and unhappy person. A true product of a Leftist Education.

How do you live with such hate inside you?

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
....THAt is a Load of LEFTY PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT!

Or to put it another way.

https://media.tenor.com/images/2d3213bc8de1d9085e69d16660b80fa1/tenor.gif

Or just a positive sign that AF is at heart an ungrateful and unhappy person. A true product of a Leftist Education.

How do you live with such hate inside you?
You're not even trying anymore, are you? Me criticizing a harmful and counterproductive policy somehow makes me an ungrateful and hateful person? Alrighty then.

Flyattractor
No. I am not. You keep saying the same thing over and over.
You blame "The System" for the Faults of he People and I am quite frankly bored with jumping on to this Ouroboros. Neither You or I will change our opinions no matter what the other says...in other words...

https://media.tenor.com/images/2d3213bc8de1d9085e69d16660b80fa1/tenor.gif

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Flyattractor
No. I am not. You keep saying the same thing over and over.
You blame "The System" for the Faults of he People and I am quite frankly bored with jumping on to this Ouroboros. Neither You or I will change our opinions no matter what the other says...in other words...

https://media.tenor.com/images/2d3213bc8de1d9085e69d16660b80fa1/tenor.gif
So the system cannot possibly be at fault for anything, according to you? Tell me, do you think it's normal to toss a person into jail for smoking dope or having a couple grams of weed on them? Cause that's the system right now.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Well, when you're dealing with 1.5 billion people, many of whom are in abject poverty, I'm thinking it will get a bit costly to have the kind of robust prison system the United States has. My only point is we're always so quick to point out our own flaws, but I reject the basic idea that China has any sort of edge on us in terms of their criminal justice system. They execute the most people annually and they lock people up for thought crimes. So I guess I'm just saying there can be any number of reasons why China has less prisoners... but it's not because they're less of a police state.

In fact.. they've been busted not only for locking up political prisoners but for extorting slave labor out of them in prison work camps. Prisoners work in some sort of manufacturing environment and make products which are then sold to front companies which sell the goods on the free market as goods that were made by legit paid workers. The name of the Chinese prison camps is the Loagai... which translates in Chinese to an abbreviated form of some phrase that means "reform through labor."

On Norway... I didn't realize they could just extend it like that. Sort of renders the rule useless to me, but I do think that's better than having a real 21 year maximum.

Oh I agree that China doesn't have a better criminal justice system. It's rife with human rights abuses, just like the rest of the country. But if they're locking up people left and right, how come they still have less prisoners? Do they let most of them go arbitrarily? As for executions, I think the US would be leading in that regard too if it was legal in all 50 states.

Yeah, it does seem a little redundant to me as well, but it seems to work for them.

Emperordmb

dadudemon

Emperordmb
thumb up

Raisen

Archaeopteryx
Originally posted by socool8520
^ If you want to legalize drugs, I guess that drops the incarceration rates significantly.

What kind of reformation are talking about here DDM? Therapy, education, etc? I'm for that, but aren't those programs already available?


The problem with modern drug treatment programs is that they are based on antiquated and ineffective 12 step programs. AA, NA, etc need to drop the anonamous part of their programs to allow real study by the scientific community

Flyattractor
https://media.tenor.com/images/2d3213bc8de1d9085e69d16660b80fa1/tenor.gif


https://media.tenor.com/images/2d3213bc8de1d9085e69d16660b80fa1/tenor.gif


https://media.tenor.com/images/2d3213bc8de1d9085e69d16660b80fa1/tenor.gif

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Oh I agree that China doesn't have a better criminal justice system. It's rife with human rights abuses, just like the rest of the country. But if they're locking up people left and right, how come they still have less prisoners? Do they let most of them go arbitrarily? As for executions, I think the US would be leading in that regard too if it was legal in all 50 states.

Yeah, it does seem a little redundant to me as well, but it seems to work for them. Yea like I said I don't know exactly why they have less prisoners, but it clearly isn't because they are squeamish about locking people up. It could just be that they prioritize who to lock up based on political concerns, or it could be that actual crime in China isn't very high. I really don't know. But I would tend not to give them any sort of benefit of the doubt tbh.

ArtificialGlory

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