GT vs. DBS

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DeadpoolXXX
Based on power scaling alone, can GT characters put up any sort of fight against DBS characters?

I'm talking mostly about GT's primary cast of Saiyans, along with the key antagonists..... Can they contend with God level power in the slightest?

carver9
Heard that GT takes place after dragonball Super.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
It takes place 10 years after Z.

That said, the likes of Jiren/Goku/Beerus as of right now would absolutely murk SSJ4 Gogeta/Omega Shenron.

StiltmanFTW
What about EoGT Goku...? shifty

NewGuy01
Goku with a spirit bomb powered by 1 top-tier and 8 fodders is considered top-tier in Super.

Gogeta with a spirit bomb powered by every life form in the universe got neg'd by Omega Shenron.

I think the answer here is obvious.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Gogeta with a spirit bomb powered by every life form in the universe got neg'd by Omega Shenron.


What?

NewGuy01
fugg, I got it mixed up. It was the Big Bang Kamehameha that he tanked, and the Universal Spirit Bomb that defeated him.

>takes L

StiltmanFTW
thumb up

Not exactly "tanked", as it did considerable damage - reverting him to Syn Shenron form, even. The next beam was going to kill him.

And Goku was in his base kid form (worn out, too) when he killed OS with the bomb.

NewGuy01
Still though, universe spirit bomb >>>>>>>>> 8 person spirit bomb >> a few ningens spirit sword > Fusion Zamasu

Galan007
Honestly depends how high you 'power scale' DBS forms/powers like SSG, SSB, MSSB, GoDs, etc.



But if you take all statements made in GT at face value, this is how the power scaling looks...

*Kid Goku stated that base Rildo was "even MORE POWERFUL than Majin Boo" -- yet BASE GT Goku was able to match him.
ie. base GT Goku ~ base Rildo > Majin Boo(Goku was likely using Pure/Kid Boo as a comparison) ~ SSJ3 Z Goku.

*Rildo then stated that Goku's power had increased "A HUNDRED fold" when he transformed to SSJ1(which is double what the SSJ multiplier was in Z.)
ie. SSJ GT Goku (100x)> base GT Goku ~ base Rildo > Majin Boo ~ SSJ3 Z Goku.


*Now, even if the SSJ2 & SSJ3 multipliers were the same in GT as they were in Z(in all likelihood, they were probably much greater given the SSJ1 multiplier), it still means SSJ2 GT Goku would have been 200x> SSJ3 Z Goku, and SSJ3 GT Goku would have been 800x> SSJ3 Z Goku.


*As for SSJ4: Super Baby Vegeta(2) was able to utterly stomp SSJ3 GT Goku... After Goku transformed into SSJ4, however, he not only stomped the bejesus out of SBV2, he was also roughly on par with Golden Oozaru Baby... Who was 10x> SBV2(that's the canon Oozaru multiplier.) This means SSJ4 was no less than 10x SSJ3(that's definitely a lowball figure, mind you, but it can be incontrovertibly substantiated.) So in a nutshell, that puts n00b SSJ4 Goku at 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku, at the very least.

-It's also worth noting that Goku stated Super Baby Vegeta(1) had "the most awesome ki he'd EVER felt"... And given that Z is canon to GT, this serves as additional proof that Baby Vegeta(1)-level power(and above) was truly intended to be >>>>>>> anything in Z(Boohan and Vegito notwithstanding.) So yeah...


*Anywho, once we got to the Shadow Dragon saga we saw that there were FAR greater depths to Goku's SSJ4 than had been previously shown.
ie. SSJ4 'limits surpassed' Goku(see his fight with Syn Shenron) >>> n00b SSJ4 Goku ala the Baby saga.

-This is important where Vegeta is concerned, because based on their ability to use the Fusion Dance in the first place, we know that SSJ4 Vegeta ~ SSJ4 'limits surpassed' Goku(remember, the fusees must have roughly the same PL in order to fuse, and neither Goku or Vegeta were stated to have raised or lowered their powers prior to fusing.)


*Then consider that Omega Shenron(who stated he was "AT LEAST 10x stronger than his previous form - possibly even more"wink was able to effortlessly trounce SSJ4 Goku AND SSJ4 Vegeta simultaneously -- and again, they were both, as a lowball figure, no less than 8,000x more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku.


*Finally, you have SSJ4 Gogeta, who utterly DESTROYED Omega Shenron in one of the most one-sided shit-stomps I've ever seen in DB.


{Note}
I'm not even counting EoGT Goku for obvious reasons. He was already AT LEAST 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku, per power scaling...AND had an additional 100 years of "training with Shenron" under his belt...AND had fused with the fuggin Dragon Balls. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he had ascended to the theoretical SSJ5 Bulma mentioned(or possibly even higher.) The dude's implied power is f*cking absurd.



tl;dr
If we use power scaling alone, the 'great powers' of GT were, in all likelihood, tenS of thousandS of timeS more powerful than the 'great powers' of Z... And if that is indeed the case, they should absolutely be able to contend with DBS/God-level power.

If we were to compare *feats* exclusively, however, this would be a tremendously lop-sided matchup, as DBS/God-level *feats* are beyond most *feats* from GT... But tbf, large-scale feats have never really been an accurate means of gauging powers in DB. If they were, then Roshi...with a PL of 180...would be one of the most powerful beings in the mythos, cuz moon-busting. So take that for what it's worth... /shrug

embarrasment

StiltmanFTW
Good post, enjoyed it thumb up

Originally posted by Galan007
Roshi...with a PL of 180... embarrasment

You're referring to this, I guess?

https://tinyurl.com/y8z43x6w

Only remember that one time Bulma measured him with scouter in the anime (filler or not?):

https://tinyurl.com/yclwj7ft

carver9
Good post Galan. Strength, speed, and durability fts are good in DB but we always based things off of power scaling. I have no take aways from your post and an argument can be made for DBGT.

NewGuy01
It's not unfounded by feats, either. Goku was able to break out of a dimension in base, not unlike how Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks did.

Galan007
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Good post, enjoyed it thumb up



You're referring to this, I guess?

https://tinyurl.com/y8z43x6w

Only remember that one time Bulma measured him with scouter in the anime (filler or not?):

https://tinyurl.com/yclwj7ft Thanks! thumb up


Not filler, as the Daizenshuu has Roshi at 139 as well:
https://i.imgur.com/drKwHk6.jpg


I just went with the 180 that 'Weekly Jump' credits him with as a maximum figure, given that Roshi was 'bulked up' when he moon-busted.

Originally posted by carver9
Good post Galan. Strength, speed, and durability fts are good in DB but we always based things off of power scaling. I have no take aways from your post and an argument can be made for DBGT. Awesome.

Glad it's not as confusing to you guys as I thought it might be after reading through it a second time, lol.

Galan007
Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's not unfounded by feats, either. Goku was able to break out of a dimension in base, not unlike how Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks did. True. thumb up


Base GT Goku also effortlessly trounced Cell(I'm assuming he would've still been SPC) and Freeza, as though they were laughably weak fodder. What's more, Cell and Freeza had both been training extensively, and were each a good deal more powerful than they originally were.

*And for what it's worth- even at the start of BoG/DBS, base Goku was still weaker than Freeza. So yeah...

DeadpoolXXX
Originally posted by Galan007


Honestly depends how high you 'power scale' DBS forms/powers like SSG, SSB, MSSB, GoDs, etc.



But if you take all statements made in GT at face value, this is how the power scaling looks...

*Kid Goku stated that base Rildo was "even MORE POWERFUL than Majin Boo" -- yet BASE GT Goku was able to match him.
ie. base GT Goku ~ base Rildo > Majin Boo(Goku was likely using Pure/Kid Boo as a comparison) ~ SSJ3 Z Goku.

*Rildo then stated that Goku's power had increased "A HUNDRED fold" when he transformed to SSJ1(which is double what the SSJ multiplier was in Z.)
ie. SSJ GT Goku (100x)> base GT Goku ~ base Rildo > Majin Boo ~ SSJ3 Z Goku.


*Now, even if the SSJ2 & SSJ3 multipliers were the same in GT as they were in Z(in all likelihood, they were probably much greater given the SSJ1 multiplier), it still means SSJ2 GT Goku would have been 200x> SSJ3 Z Goku, and SSJ3 GT Goku would have been 800x> SSJ3 Z Goku.


*As for SSJ4: Super Baby Vegeta(2) was able to utterly stomp SSJ3 GT Goku... After Goku transformed into SSJ4, however, he not only stomped the bejesus out of SBV2, he was also roughly on par with Golden Oozaru Baby... Who was 10x> SBV2(that's the canon Oozaru multiplier.) This means SSJ4 was no less than 10x SSJ3(that's definitely a lowball figure, mind you, but it can be incontrovertibly substantiated.) So in a nutshell, that puts n00b SSJ4 Goku at 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku, at the very least.

-It's also worth noting that Goku stated Super Baby Vegeta(1) had "the most awesome ki he'd EVER felt"... And given that Z is canon to GT, this serves as additional proof that Baby Vegeta(1)-level power(and above) was truly intended to be >>>>>>> anything in Z(Boohan and Vegito notwithstanding.) So yeah...


*Anywho, once we got to the Shadow Dragon saga we saw that there were FAR greater depths to Goku's SSJ4 than had been previously shown.
ie. SSJ4 'limits surpassed' Goku(see his fight with Syn Shenron) >>> n00b SSJ4 Goku ala the Baby saga.

-This is important where Vegeta is concerned, because based on their ability to use the Fusion Dance in the first place, we know that SSJ4 Vegeta ~ SSJ4 'limits surpassed' Goku(remember, the fusees must have roughly the same PL in order to fuse, and neither Goku or Vegeta were stated to have raised or lowered their powers prior to fusing.)


*Then consider that Omega Shenron(who stated he was "AT LEAST 10x stronger than his previous form - possibly even more"wink was able to effortlessly trounce SSJ4 Goku AND SSJ4 Vegeta simultaneously -- and again, they were both, as a lowball figure, no less than 8,000x more powerful than SSJ3 Z Goku.


*Finally, you have SSJ4 Gogeta, who utterly DESTROYED Omega Shenron in one of the most one-sided shit-stomps I've ever seen in DB.


{Note}
I'm not even counting EoGT Goku for obvious reasons. He was already AT LEAST 8,000x> SSJ3 Z Goku, per power scaling...AND had an additional 100 years of "training with Shenron" under his belt...AND had fused with the fuggin Dragon Balls. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he had ascended to the theoretical SSJ5 Bulma mentioned(or possibly even higher.) The dude's implied power is f*cking absurd.



tl;dr
If we use power scaling alone, the 'great powers' of GT were, in all likelihood, tenS of thousandS of timeS more powerful than the 'great powers' of Z... And if that is indeed the case, they should absolutely be able to contend with DBS/God-level power.

If we were to compare *feats* exclusively, however, this would be a tremendously lop-sided matchup, as DBS/God-level *feats* are beyond most *feats* from GT... But tbf, large-scale feats have never really been an accurate means of gauging powers in DB. If they were, then Roshi...with a PL of 180...would be one of the most powerful beings in the mythos, cuz moon-busting. So take that for what it's worth... /shrug

embarrasment Fantastic post! Thanks a bunch for this. Hope you don't mind if I use it for future debates as reference. Great stuff. big grin

I just cant get passed the 8000x figure; it's insane and hard to even grasp! especially when we've seen how guys that are just 2x their opponent can dominate them easily: just look at SS2 Gohan v.s. Perfect Cell haha.

Galan007
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
Fantastic post! Thanks a bunch for this. Hope you don't mind if I use it for future debates as reference. Great stuff. big grin

I just cant get passed the 8000x figure; it's insane and hard to even grasp! especially when we've seen how guys that are just 2x their opponent can dominate them easily: just look at SS2 Gohan v.s. Perfect Cell haha. You asked for power scaling, so I power scaled for ya. wink

Well, Perfect Cell > FPSSJ Gohan -- this means SSJ2 Gohan was LESS THAN 2x Perfect Cell, yet he was still trounced with laughable ease(Gohan dropped him with 2 serious hits, iirc.) So just imagine if Gohan were able to beat Cell 8,000x easier... Because *that's* how easily a n00b SSJ4 Goku could stomp him on paper. #CrayCray

In short, I totally agree with you- it's nearly impossible to wrap your head around multipliers like this... Especially given that the 8,000x figure is actually just a very low-end/conservative starting point. Because even during the Baby arc when he was still a n00b, SSJ4 Goku was logically a good deal more powerful than that -- and his power increased dramatically by the final arc when he surpassed his limitations against the Shenron family.

Also remember: that is *just* SSJ4 Goku. SSJ4 Vegeta was just as powerful as him(his SSJ4 amp was actually FAR more impressive.) However, a being like Omega Shenron makes both of their powers look infantile by comparison... And whatever difference exists between Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Goku/Vegeta -- a MUCH larger difference exists between Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta. Utterly asinine levels of power here...


From a storytelling/plot standpoint, GT was crap most of the time. That said, it's hard to deny how phucking powerful its characters were intended to be. /shrug

NewGuy01
Yeah, but it's also inconsistent. Sometimes larger differences like 10x aren't that dramatic.

Galan007
Even so... We're talking differences of thousandS upon thousandS of times here. none

Ridley_Prime

Placidity
I'd be interested to see the power scaling for DBS though - excluding low-end outliers.

Kento
The problem with scaling in DBS comes from SSG, and SSB. There isn't anything, in the anime, to compare them too.

Base Vegeta is able to effortlessly beat ssj3 Gotenks. SO, even at low ends, saying Base Vegeta was even just = to ssj3 Gotenks then ssj3 Goku would be 3,200x his ssj3 Buu Saga self.

But then there is SSG, which who knows how much that boosts, and even if we assume that SSB is just 50x SSG because it's just super saiyan added onto it, then not even taking into account a boost from God Form, that's 160,000x his ssj3 Buu Saga. KKSSBx20 added, over 3 million times Kid Buu's power. And that's Low balling it all, and not adding in whatever multiplier that SSG puts in.

DBS Manga scaling, it's a lot weaker than the anime, and GT. But I think SSG, and SSB grant bigger power boosts in the manga than in the anime.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up

Yeah, if you scale off of Base Goku > RoF FF Frieza, or Base Vegeta >> SSJ3 Gotenks...DBS shitstomps GT in terms of scaling.

Regardless, God ki is just way too tremendous of a boost, I feel, for GT to even compete. SSJB Goku as of right now is way more than tens of thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku, imo, when you consider that:

The gap between SSJ3 and SSJG is implied to be MONUMENTALLY larger than the gap between SSJ3 and base. For one, when Goku is going from SSJ3 to SSJG against Toppo, he notes he'll be on a completely different level from before. Secondly, Toppo WITHOUT using his god ki was effortlessly stomping SSJ3 Goku, but when Goku went SSJG, Toppo began to use his god ki, (which, again, is a TREMENDOUS boost,) and SSJG Goku was stalemating him, more or less.

So lets lowball and say SSJG is roughly a 1000x boost to SSJ3. You still have SSJB, which is noted multiple times to be the SS form of SSJG. Furthermore, we see SSJB perform MONUMENTALLY better against Jiren than SSJG did. And base Kefla was absolutely annihilating SSJG Goku, but SSJB Goku put up a much better fight against SS Kefla. So I think it's safe to say SSJB is at least a 50x boost to SSJG.

1000x50 = SSJB is roughly 50,000 times stronger than current SSJ3, which is considerably stronger than Buu Saga SSJ3. This isn't factoring KK x20, which would put Goku a whopping 1,000,000x stronger than current SSJ3. Again, this is while completely lowballing the SSJ3 to SSJG multiplier.

I'm sorry, but SSJB Goku alone bodies GT. No need for Beerus.

NewGuy01
laughing out loud

Inedian
EoGT Goku complety destroys anyone from Super except Zeno.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by NewGuy01
laughing out loud

Uhh, it is a lowball.

Again, Goku notes that SSJG is on a completely different level relative to base-SSJ3. Toppo without using god ki was absolutely bodying SSJ3 without effort, then SSJG comes along and he's matching a Toppo that is using god ki.

The absolute lowest the boost from SSJ3 to SSJG could be is 400x, but that's an absolutely insane lowball.

But if we roll with it being a 400x boost to Buu Saga SSJ3 (lmfaooooooo) then we can use SSJB as a 50x boost for a total of about 20,000x. Then you get KKx20 for a 400,000x boost. SSJ4 Gogeta could probably compete with that. Omega/SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta get donkeystomped, though.

carver9
I agree with Supreme. Anyways, in DBS, Goku has shown that in base, he is far above anything in Z. He took on 3 Buu level beings in the T.O.P. and was stomping them. Then we have Beerus vs base Goku and Goku was holding his own, to the point where Whis had to stop it because he said they were going to destroy everything. Goku powering up to Super Saiyan 2 and his power being compared to the Gods. The list is long.

Kento
One of the biggest problems with DBS though is the inconsistency in power levels. GT never really had that problem. They just dropped the ball in every other way.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Regardless, even if you lowball the life out of Super, it's still CONSIDERABLY more powerful than GT. Beerus would Solo GT.

carver9
Originally posted by Kento
One of the biggest problems with DBS though is the inconsistency in power levels. GT never really had that problem. They just dropped the ball in every other way.

You can't use Goku as the person that makes the show inconsistent. He ALWAYS hold back. The only time I've seen him go all out was during his first fight with Beerus and against Jiren. FYI...he was trying to kill Roshi, Krillin, and Android 18.

Kento
Originally posted by carver9
You can't use Goku as the person that makes the show inconsistent. He ALWAYS hold back. The only time I've seen him go all out was during his first fight with Beerus and against Jiren. FYI...he was trying to kill Roshi, Krillin, and Android 18. Cause, yes its only Goku who is inconsistent.. Not Vegeta at all... The one who is not known to ever hold back, and still has just as much inconsistency being able to take someone on in base form in the show, and then not just own them in super saiyan forms.. Or for a fact we know Goku and Vegeta's are equal in power except with kaioken or UI, and Goku can fight people who give Vegeta trouble in super saiyan, but stay in his base.


And you bring up Goku vs Krillen/Roshi against me more than cdtm brings up Superman in DB Super thread... When I've never said anything about that at all.

Galan007
Originally posted by Placidity
I'd be interested to see the power scaling for DBS though - excluding low-end outliers. That's the thing, there ISN'T really a way to power scale DBS with any sort of accuracy(contrary to what some of the people in this very thread are trying to do.)

All we know is that current base Goku and Vegeta are > SSJ3 Gotenks and 4th form Freeza(RoF). Aside from that, we just know that SSG is > base to *some* degree, SSB is > SSG to *some* degree, MSSB is > SSB to *some* degree, Beerus is > MSSB to *some* degree, and so on and so forth. People are throwing around multipliers in the hundreds of thousands here, but that's all just personal conjecture. Again: NO God-level multipliers have been referenced or alluded to by any canonical source. It's all just speculation at this point.

...At least GT gave us tangible figures/powers/amps to work with, which allows us to ballpark power scale with at least *some* level of accuracy. /shrug

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, if we operate under the logic that current base Goku is > SSJ3 Gotenks...that would make current SSJ3 Goku at least 400x stronger than Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku. And based on the manga, SSJG is at least a 400x boost to SSJ3. Which would make SSJG 160,000 times stronger than Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku. Then there's SSJB....

While the exact multipliers may not be certain, characters in DBS are at WORST capable of godstomping the most powerful characters in GT.

Galan007
Again, the notion that DBS-era characters are 'hundreds of thousands of times' beyond Z-era characters is entirely your personal opinion/conjecture. If I said the multipliers were nowhere near what you're claiming, you wouldn't be able to prove me wrong one way or the other.

...And that is, essentially, the crux of my previous statement: as of now, DBS multipliers are entirely theoretical/fan-made, and will vary from person to person. So again, there is NO way to power scale DBS with any sort of accuracy at this point in time... There just isn't any definitive canonical evidence to help narrow it down. /shrug

Kento
Originally posted by Galan007
Again, the notion that DBS-era characters are 'hundreds of thousands of times' beyond Z-era characters is entirely your personal opinion/conjecture. If I said the multipliers were nowhere near what you're claiming, you wouldn't be able to prove me wrong one way or the other.

...Which is the crux of my previous statement: as of now, DBS multipliers are entirely theoretical/fan-made, and will vary from person to person. So again, there is NO way to power scale DBS with any sort of accuracy at this point in time. Even taking away what SSG, and SSB amp, Goku in Super is 64,000x stronger than Kid Buu by scaling what we do know and can scale, by making his base just 8x stronger, and being equal to ssj3 Gotenks, which isn't even true as the base is stronger than ssj3 Gotenks, and then adding the kaiokenx20.

So even your lowballing figure of GT Goku with every amp, doesn't stack to the known amps of Super, with lowballing.

We know GT's Goku's base is > Kid Buu. So lets high ball it and say he's 5x stronger in base than Kid Buu was. Even with all the amps he doesn't add up.

Lets just start with the last known figure we had for Goku (Even though his base had clearly grown) which is 3 million. 150 million for ssj. 300 million for ssj2. 1,200,000,000 for ssj3.

Lets just say for simplicity sake that, Both GT and Super Goku start at base or 1,200,000,000.

So ssj Super makes him 60 billion. And GT goes to 120 billion. So GT Goku has the head start.

ssj2, 120 billion, 240 billion.

ssj3 480 billion, and 960 billion

Then they equal out with SSJ4, and Kaiokenx20. 9,600,000,000,000.

Now we know that Base GT Goku is stronger than 1,200,000,000. Because he's stronger than Kid Buu. We do not however know an exact measurement.

However we know base Goku is at least 8x stronger than Kid Buu, so his base would start out at around 9,600,000,000.

So no matter where we start at, even if SSG, and SSB are merely 2x each, they scaling for Super is still higher, with lowballing for each series.

Alright lets even say that, GT Goku's base it, 5x stronger, a little high balling but, say he starts at 6 billion. And lets also say that each transformation is doubled just like ssj is.

SSJ - 600 Billion
ssj2 - 2,400,000,000,000
ssj3 - 19,200,000,000,000
ssj4 - 192 trillion.

Now Super Goku, his base is the 9,600,000,000 and we say that ssg, and ssb adds the lowest possible of 2x each transformation.

ssj - 480 billion
ssj2 - 960 billion
ssj3 - 3,840,000,000,000
ssg - 7,680,000,000,000
ssb - 15,360,000,000,000
ssbkkx20 - 307 trillion

GT starts out stronger but in the end, even lowballing super transformations and putting GT Goku's base higher than it probably is, the end result is Super Goku is twice as powerful.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up

There is no way to do this that ends with GT having any sort of chance.

DeadpoolXXX
Originally posted by Kento
Even taking away what SSG, and SSB amp, Goku in Super is 64,000x stronger than Kid Buu by scaling This honestly makes no sense at all to me. It really does seem like the scaling for DBS is based on opinions like galen said.

On a diiferent note- why in the heck is anyone still using gotenks as a gauge? Akira has tooned the crap out of him in DBS. hes little more than a joke character these days. i'm definitely not going to act like gotenks is still intended to be stronger than ssj3 goku either. that may have been the case when Akira first wrote the buu story, but it was clear during the BOG series that goku and vegeta were the strongest saiyans, period . Afterall Akira himself said in an interview that he rarely ever remembers what he writes and the buu story is over 20 years old!

confused

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up

There is no way to do this that ends with GT having any sort of chance. Your going to hop on any bandwagon that puts DBS over Gt, but your scaling isn't any better tbh. confused

NewGuy01
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Again, Goku notes that SSJG is on a completely different level relative to base-SSJ3.

Okay? So what? Your argument would make sense if the multipliers upward from SSJ weren't so low. It's obvious that SSJ (being a 50x multiplier) was "on a completely different level" than base in the Namek saga, whereas SSJ2 and SSJ3 (being 2x and 4x boosts respectively) were relatively minor upgrades. Another 50x boost would be more than enough to qualify as being "on a completely different level" than SSJ without being a lowball whatsoever. laughing out loud



Again, so what? We don't have any way of measuring how much stronger Toppo became, so the fact that Goku closed the gap doesn't tell us anything concrete, let alone that he became a thousand times stronger. You're better than this. laughing out loud



Nonsense. Also, as for your SSJB=50x SSJG claim, take another look at the manga's rendition of the Hit fight. It's stated clear as day there that a SSJG is stronger than a SSJB operating at 10%.

Kento
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
This honestly makes no sense at all to me. It really does seem like the scaling for DBS is based on opinions like galen said.

On a diiferent note- why in the heck is anyone still using gotenks as a gauge? Akira has tooned the crap out of him in DBS. hes little more than a joke character these days. i'm definitely not going to act like gotenks is still intended to be stronger than ssj3 goku either. that may have been the case when Akira first wrote the buu story, but it was clear during the BOG series that goku and vegeta were the strongest saiyans, period . Afterall Akira himself said in an interview that he rarely ever remembers what he writes and the buu story is over 20 years old!

confused

Super's gauge is really wack, at least GT has the whole, 20 years after Buu.

And besides one scene against Tagoma, Gotenks hasn't been used as in joke character gags during fights. The battle against Vegeta's clone was very serious type fight, and in base took the hits from Gotenks as easily as Cell took hits from Super Vegeta. In fact Super seems to go out of the way to not even use Gotenks... as for the BoG arc in the anime, Gotenks never goes ssj3. Not that it would have mattered anyway.

And Toriyama doesn't need to remember what he wrote, when Toei is the one writing the anime and who wrote GT anyway. Toriyama just gives toei the outline for super anime.

cdtm
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up

Yeah, if you scale off of Base Goku > RoF FF Frieza, or Base Vegeta >> SSJ3 Gotenks...DBS shitstomps GT in terms of scaling.

Regardless, God ki is just way too tremendous of a boost, I feel, for GT to even compete. SSJB Goku as of right now is way more than tens of thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku, imo, when you consider that:

The gap between SSJ3 and SSJG is implied to be MONUMENTALLY larger than the gap between SSJ3 and base. For one, when Goku is going from SSJ3 to SSJG against Toppo, he notes he'll be on a completely different level from before. Secondly, Toppo WITHOUT using his god ki was effortlessly stomping SSJ3 Goku, but when Goku went SSJG, Toppo began to use his god ki, (which, again, is a TREMENDOUS boost,) and SSJG Goku was stalemating him, more or less.

So lets lowball and say SSJG is roughly a 1000x boost to SSJ3. You still have SSJB, which is noted multiple times to be the SS form of SSJG. Furthermore, we see SSJB perform MONUMENTALLY better against Jiren than SSJG did. And base Kefla was absolutely annihilating SSJG Goku, but SSJB Goku put up a much better fight against SS Kefla. So I think it's safe to say SSJB is at least a 50x boost to SSJG.

1000x50 = SSJB is roughly 50,000 times stronger than current SSJ3, which is considerably stronger than Buu Saga SSJ3. This isn't factoring KK x20, which would put Goku a whopping 1,000,000x stronger than current SSJ3. Again, this is while completely lowballing the SSJ3 to SSJG multiplier.

I'm sorry, but SSJB Goku alone bodies GT. No need for Beerus.

Base Goku was also holding his own with SSJ2 Caulifa.

Proving skill can compete with power levels.

Galan007
Y'all are welcome to your opinions, but frankly, I believe the multipliers being thrown around for DBS here are vastly overinflated, to say the least... Especially without having any canon evidence to help substantiate these claims.

I mean, it is a WELL established fact that if you are 'just' 2-4x > your opponent, you can dominate them with almost NO effort at all... Hell, SSJ Goku was only about 20% more powerful than Freeza on Namek, yet he still stomped him quite easily in the manga. What I'm saying is: the characters in DBS don't *have* to be 'hundreds of thousands' of times more powerful than they were in Z for their God-level powers to be considered as vast as they are.

NewGuy's analogy was spot on, imo: SSG could have 'just' been 50x SSJ3, and Goku would've still considered it to be an astronomically massive amp, that put him in a whole new realm of power... And frankly that *would* still be true, considering his power seemed to have plateaued before attaining godhood. After all, Beerus initially stated that base Goku was still WEAKER than Freeza... Which tells us that Goku's base power(which is what the SSJ multipliers build from) had increased LESS THAN 50x in the ~16 years of constant training between the Namek saga and the beginning of BoG.


Just some food for thought. /shrug

cdtm
Pre SSJ Goku also fended off Freeza with a much lower power level.

And he managed to keep from dying against Radditz for some time, and even managed to hold him in a full nelson.

The instances where a small increase made a dramatic difference, are when it was Goku or Vegeta with the advantage.

Then there's Nappa being given a fair struggle against skilled Earthlings.

That's plenty of proof PL isn't everything. Skill + PL is where you get your stomps.

carver9
It was said during the beginning of Super that Goku base level carries God power. This is why he tends to fight well in this form against powerful opponents.

cdtm
That was said in the movie, the anime retcons this. Just like it retcons the 70% for Beerus.

Kento
Originally posted by Galan007
Y'all are welcome to your opinions, but frankly, I believe the multipliers being thrown around for DBS here are vastly overinflated, to say the least... Especially without having any canon evidence to help substantiate these claims.

I mean, it is a WELL established fact that if you are 'just' 2-4x > your opponent, you can dominate them with almost NO effort at all... Hell, SSJ Goku was only about 20% more powerful than Freeza on Namek, yet he still stomped him quite easily in the manga. What I'm saying is: the characters in DBS don't *have* to be 'hundreds of thousands' of times more powerful than they were in Z for their God-level powers to be considered as vast as they are.

NewGuy's analogy was spot on, imo: SSG could have 'just' been 50x SSJ3, and Goku would've still considered it to be an astronomically massive amp, that put him in a whole new realm of power... And frankly that *would* still be true, considering his power seemed to have plateaued before attaining godhood. After all, Beerus initially stated that base Goku was still WEAKER than Freeza... Which tells us that Goku's base power(which is what the SSJ multipliers build from) had increased LESS THAN 50x in the ~16 years of constant training between the Namek saga and the beginning of BoG.


Just some food for thought. /shrug How do I not have any canon evidence to show my claims?

Also, his base in BoG is irrelevant when we've seen what they can do in base from RoF arc, and in Vegeta's clone arc, and on.

Also, I'm talking specifically anime, cause if you go in the manga route, then Goku doesn't even compare to GT. And makes a lot more sense power scale wise.

But Super the anime, and GT both have absurd power scaling.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kento
How do I not have any canon evidence to show my claims? Because you have no way of proving/legitimizing most of the multipliers you're throwing around..? As mentioned: it's mostly just personal opinion/conjecture at this point, because NO DBS/God-era multipliers have been referenced in any canon source(s).

NewGuy01
Not true; the gap between SSJG and SSJB was stated to be less than 10x in the manga. Other than that, no.

Galan007
Yeah, that was the implication in the manga when Whis and Beerus explain that Vegeta's 2nd use of SSB against Hit made him less than 1/10th of normal SSB, and under SSG... Implying that SSB is around 10x SSG:
https://i.imgur.com/52x7csU.jpg

...Which is a pretty far cry from some of the theoretical multipliers being thrown around in this thread.



Additionally, Goku still considers SSB to be a "HUGE" boost over SSG:
https://i.imgur.com/QRvOrKX.png

So if you take the dialogue of Whis and Beerus at face value(doubting Whis in particular would be lulz-worthy, btw), then it coincides with what you and I have been saying: God-era multipliers do not *have* to be in the hundreds of thousands for the Z Fighters to view them as gargantuan boosts... Not when a ~10x increase is still regarded as "HUGE" by Goku himself. /shrug

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, that was the implication in the manga when Whis and Beerus explain that Vegeta's 2nd use of SSB against Hit made him less than 1/10th of normal SSB, and under SSG... Implying that SSB is around 10x SSG:

And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit.



To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did.

The killer is that GT Goku is just stronger at the base level.

Damborgson
What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be?

Galan007
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit. Great point thumb up

Originally posted by NewGuy01
To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did. To be even fairer (stick out tongue)-

That blurb about Vegetto 'perhaps' being more powerful than SSJ4 is from GT Perfect Files -- the same guidebook that stated SSJ2 was never seen again after the Cell saga, lol. It is widely considered to be an extremely unreliable source(even by Herms) -- certainly not an irrefutable reference, like the Daizenshuu, Super-Exciting Guide, V-Jump, etc.

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be? Nearly impossible to say. Some of the older guidebooks mentioned that Potara fusion was akin to BPxBP(ie. if the 2 beings who fused each had a BP of 1000, the finished fusion's BP would be 1000000.) In practice, however, the increase gleaned from Potara fusion isn't a set multiplier at all, as it varies wildly from pair-to-pair.

It is honestly one of the more inconsistent powerups in the franchise, imo(especially since DBS has started using the shit out of it.) /shrug

ares834
Super.

GT may have higher multipliers, but Super seems to have retroactively raised the power of the DBZ characters because of their absurd feats in Super.

NewGuy01
I personally like the number 80x, for general use, assuming the participants' power levels are equal. It puts base Vegetto around SSJ2 Goku level, and Super Vegetto around 10x SSJ3 Goku level, which sound about right to me personally.

Although, in a sense, the reason Vegetto is so strong isn't just because of his power. As a warrior, he's said to possess both the raw battle instinct of Goku and the focus of Vegeta, making him extremely effective skill-wise. So you could say in the case that the fusees are less compatible, the strength increase could be dramatically lower, although that's frustratingly not looking to be the case with Kefla and all.

The "power multiplication" theory is just bogus though. The ridiculously high numbers you could get out of it aside, it's just arbitrary. Say you used a different metric to describe Goku's and Vegeta's power; what if you qualified each as a "1" on a different scale? Then if you multiplied those, their power wouldn't change at all. A fusion multiplier that relies on the metric used to gauge the involved parties doesn't strike me as all that credible, tbh.

Kento
Originally posted by Galan007
Because you have no way of proving/legitimizing most of the multipliers you're throwing around..? As mentioned: it's mostly just personal opinion/conjecture at this point, because NO DBS/God-era multipliers have been referenced in any canon source(s). The only ones that don't have set multipliers are ssg and ssb... and I use the lowest possible multiplier anything can give at 2x.

It's conjecture but it can't be any lower than that.

cdtm
Originally posted by Damborgson
What boost do you guys estimate potara fusion to be?

Varies. The old KIoshin practically admitted there isn't a set boost when he claimed Vegetto was especially amped on account of Goku and Vegeta being rivals.

bbrem123
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And frankly, that's a highball. Goku's SSG was performing significantly better than Vegeta's 10% SSB, so it wouldn't be unthinkable for SSG to be 20% or more of SSB either. Especially considering how normal SSJ (which is far inferior to SSG) was keeping pace with Hit.



To be fair though, SSG definitely compares favorably to SSJ4 as a transformation. I remember from one of the old guides that the multiplier for SSJ1 + Potara might rival SSJ4, and it's made 100% clear that Super Vegetto wouldn't have fared nearly as well against Beerus as SSG did.

The killer is that GT Goku is just stronger at the base level.


Pretty sure they said Vegeta could not perform at even 10% of his power.

We also have Goku's recent fight with Kefla. SSG was getting beat by base Kefla. SSB was then fighting LSSJ Kefla to nearly a stand still. This is a Kefla that is x50 her base. (going by established DB multipliers) The mulitplier may even be higher since it is a LSSJ form. So one can only assume that a MSSB is at least x50 SSG.

carver9
Originally posted by bbrem123
Pretty sure they said Vegeta could not perform at even 10% of his power.

We also have Goku's recent fight with Kefla. SSG was getting beat by base Kefla. SSB was then fighting LSSJ Kefla to nearly a stand still. This is a Kefla that is x50 her base. (going by established DB multipliers) The mulitplier may even be higher since it is a LSSJ form. So one can only assume that a MSSB is at least x50 SSG.

You forgot to mention that Jiren blocked SSG punches with a finger whereas Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to push Jiren back. He punched the guy through a mountain. Lol... I don't think 50 times is enough; you probably should up that.

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
You forgot to mention that Jiren blocked SSG punches with a finger whereas Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to push Jiren back. He punched the guy through a mountain. Lol... I don't think 50 times is enough; you probably should up that. Goodness. Some of you are still having a painfully hard time grasping the concept that the multipliers simply do not *have* to be extremely high digits for differences like that to still exist, and I'm not sure why..? Is it because you already have these grand preconceived multipliers in your head(s)..?


Regardless, another prime example is: ASSJ Vegeta vs. Perfect Cell; and FPSSJ Goku vs. Perfect Cell.

All-out strikes from an enraged ASSJ Vegeta were incapable of making Perfect Cell(who hadn't even began to powerup, mind you) so much as flinch. Conversely, FPSSJ Goku was able to give Perfect Cell(who was still suppressing his power, but not nearly as much) a very good fight -- his strikes definitely had a pronounced effect.

I bring this up because the difference between FPSSJ Goku and ASSJ Vegeta was probably around 2-3x(maybe less considering how flabbergasted the Z Fighters were at the 2x amp Gohan gleaned from SSJ2.) IOW, the difference between them was relatively minimal, yet their fights against Cell were WORLDS apart.


...Not sure why it's so hard for some of you to picture the same basic principal applying to God-era powerups..? confused

cdtm
So, if Vegeta is a 400, Goku is 1200?

That kind of difference?

That's about where Radditz was to Goku. So if Vegeta is about that difference to Goku, yet Goku has a tremendously more effective attack on Cell (Who was powered up against Goku, but not against Vegeta), can we chalk this up as another example of inconsistency?

bbrem123
Good points. But the Kefla fight is a fight that has established multipliers in play.

Also we see a KKx20 Goku get bodied just as bad as SSB. So it kinda has to be up there.

Galan007
^ That only holds true if you have Jiren at a fixed level the entire time(ie. only using 'x' percent of his power against all of Goku's forms.)

However, we literally have NO clue how much power Jiren was using at any given time(could be .01%; could be 99.9%) -- so there's really no way that fight can be used as a means of accurately power scaling, either.

DBS is a real b*tch that way, unfortunately. sad

bbrem123
Valid point. What are your thoughts on the Kefla fight though? This fight has distinct multipliers in play.

Galan007
There again, it's hard to scale with any kind of certainty because it was made abundantly clear that Goku's fight with Jiren weakened him immensely, which means he was FAR from full power against Kefla(his depleted stamina was referenced time and time again during that fight.)

...And a taxed Goku probably isn't the best measuring stick. stick out tongue

bbrem123
True. But that shouldn't matter though right? Multipliers are multipliers. If he was only 50% of power it would still just multiply by 50 for his current power level.

A weakened SSG Goku to SSB Goku was around x50 based on his Kefla fight. (using her x50 LSSJ multiplier a the marker)

This fight gives us a good gauge of the multiplier from SSG to SSB imo. I would even say x50 is lowballing based on this being a LSSJ form and not SSJ. Just me two cents though erm

Galan007
A multiplier might be a multiplier, but when you start out really weak(and are growing even weaker by the moment), said multiplier isn't going to make you nearly as powerful as it normally would(ie. if you were fresh.)

So again, using a taxed/depleted Goku to powerscale isn't going to give you remotely accurate approximations, tbh.

cdtm
Not even remotely.

But this happens all the time. You have to laugh at the figures being given all the way back on Namek when Goku first went SSJ, was at the end of his stamina, and fans thought they can get accurate numbers from that.

Or even further back when Vegeta burns up some energy creating a false moon, and yet all the guidebooks say "180,000". Uh, no he wasn't. Not if he wasn't at full strength when he aped out.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
A multiplier might be a multiplier, but when you start out really weak(and are growing even weaker by the moment), said multiplier isn't going to make you nearly as powerful as it normally would(ie. if you were fresh.)

So again, using a taxed/depleted Goku to powerscale isn't going to give you remotely accurate approximations, tbh.

I get what you are saying but a weaken base saiyan that transforms into SSJ is still a x50 multiplier of the weaken base state correct?

Im not using this example to show Goku's power, just using it as multiplier gauge between SSG to SSB.

bbrem123
My thought process here. Let me know where I am wrong. I could just be confusing myself lol.

Base Kefla > Weakened SSG Goku
SSJ Kefla (x50 multiplier) ≈ Weakened SSB Goku

Meaning SSG to SSB is around a x50 multiplier for this weakened Goku.
Again this is just to find the multiplier from SSG to SSB. So to me this multiplier can be translated to a full power Goku as well.

Galan007
That has been brought up before. Personally, my problem with people assuming Kefla is powering up by a factor of 50x when she goes SSJ, is that she is from an alternate universe -- and beings from different universes/timelines tend to follow different rules(look at Future Trunks' SSJ2 rage form in the anime, for example.) It's kind of like assuming Frost's form-to-form power increases were identical to those of Freeza, simply because Frost is an alternate universe analogue of Freeza... We simply don't know one way or the other -- all we can do is speculate.

That said, you're more than welcome to assume SSB is 50x SSG, but the Kefla scene certainly isn't enough to legitimize that assumption, imo... Goku's enormously depleted state aside, Whis and Beerus heavily implied that SSB is 10x SSG in the manga -- and it's really hard for me to overlook the manga without a darn good reason to, because it is easily the closest thing we have to a canonically-referenced SSB multiplier.
mmm


I keep saying it, but I just don't think there is a way to accurately powerscale the God-level multipliers of DBS... Not at this point, at least. srug

Ridley_Prime

Kento
Originally posted by Galan007


All-out strikes from an enraged ASSJ Vegeta were incapable of making Perfect Cell(who hadn't even began to powerup, mind you) so much as flinch. Conversely, FPSSJ Goku was able to give Perfect Cell(who was still suppressing his power, but not nearly as much) a very good fight -- his strikes definitely had a pronounced effect.

I bring this up because the difference between FPSSJ Goku and ASSJ Vegeta was probably around 2-3x(maybe less considering how flabbergasted the Z Fighters were at the 2x amp Gohan gleaned from SSJ2.) IOW, the difference between them was relatively minimal, yet their fights against Cell were WORLDS apart.


...Not sure why it's so hard for some of you to picture the same basic principal applying to God-era powerups..? confused It HAS to be much less than 2x. Because Future Trunks was > FPSSJ Goku in power but too slow.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Galan007
That has been brought up before. Personally, my problem with people assuming Kefla is powering up by a factor of 50x when she goes SSJ, is that she is from an alternate universe -- and beings from different universes/timelines tend to follow different rules(look at Future Trunks' SSJ2 rage form in the anime, for example.) It's kind of like assuming Frost's form-to-form power increases were identical to those of Freeza, simply because Frost is an alternate universe analogue of Freeza... We simply don't know one way or the other -- all we can do is speculate.

That said, you're more than welcome to assume SSB is 50x SSG, but the Kefla scene certainly isn't enough to legitimize that assumption, imo... Goku's enormously depleted state aside, Whis and Beerus heavily implied that SSB is 10x SSG in the manga -- and it's really hard for me to overlook the manga without a darn good reason to, because it is easily the closest thing we have to a canonically-referenced SSB multiplier.
mmm


I keep saying it, but I just don't think there is a way to accurately powerscale the God-level multipliers of DBS... Not at this point, at least. srug I can agree with this. I keep leaning to U6 saiyans being the same as U7 because the fight with Cabba/Vegeta and Caulifla/Goku fight showed very similar power levels. Goku and Caulifla even went transformation for transformation with not to much of gaps in power. I think it is safe to say the multipliers are relatively close.

Also didn't Whis say "he was not even 10%". Not that he "was 10%" of his power. This is a pretty obscure statement if so and doesn't hold much value.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kento
It HAS to be much less than 2x. Because Future Trunks was > FPSSJ Goku in power but too slow. I am not of the opinion that USSJ Trunks > FPSSJ Goku. In fact, I'd say Goku was actually a good deal more powerful.

First off, the Z Fighters were awestruck by just HALF of FPSSJ Goku's power(and that was AFTER Trunks had already gone USSJ against Cell, mind you):
https://i.imgur.com/Z7zcA2K.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MRdRAgT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uP6wYif.jpg

Secondly, all of the Z Fighters(Trunks included) acted like FPSSJ Goku's max power was the greatest ki they had ever sensed up to that point:
https://i.imgur.com/rIOkTbD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cWpmt9Q.jpg


*USSJ Trunks was only ever stated to be stronger than Perfect Cell, at a time when Cell was suppressing the large majority of his power.

Kento
Cell is the one who stated flatly that Trunks was stronger than him though.

Also, Goku got that power, without sacrificing any type of speed. Which in itself would have been amazing.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kento
Cell is the one who stated flatly that Trunks was stronger than him though.

Also, Goku got that power, without sacrificing any type of speed. Which in itself would have been amazing. As mentioned above: that was at a time when Perfect Cell was suppressing most of his power.

In both instances I posted, the Z Fighters(Trunks included) were amazed by the raw ki that FPSSJ Goku was generating(he hadn't even really fought yet, remember.) They wouldn't have been so utterly floored by the ki they sensed from Goku if USSJ Trunks had already generated =/> levels of ki.

carver9
In his fight against Kefla, it was mentioned that he was generating more power against her when he was in Ultra mode vs when be fought against Jiren.

Kento
Originally posted by Galan007
As mentioned above: that was at a time when Perfect Cell was suppressing most of his power.

In both instances I posted, the Z Fighters(Trunks included) were amazed by the raw ki that FPSSJ Goku was generating(he hadn't even really fought yet, remember.) They wouldn't have been so utterly floored by the ki they sensed from Goku if USSJ Trunks had already generated =/> levels of ki. Which is why I didn't bring up Piccolo saying it. Cells own words were that Trunks had more power than him, and Cell isn't the type to boast on someone else's power.. He was able to physically hurt Cell, when Vegeta could not even move Cell also. So the gap between FPSSJ Goku, Cell, and USSJ Trunks can't even have been a lot for it to matter who was stronger though. Trunks was just too slow for it to matter his power.

cdtm
As for which is the better show..

Both are garbage. GT has no real good points though, so I guess Super wins by default.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kento
Which is why I didn't bring up Piccolo saying it. Cells own words were that Trunks had more power than him, and Cell isn't the type to boast on someone else's power. Not exactly. Cell was treating FPSSJ Goku like an equal/peer, even though he still wasn't using his full power during their fight.

Originally posted by Kento
He was able to physically hurt Cell, when Vegeta could not even move Cell also. So the gap between FPSSJ Goku, Cell, and USSJ Trunks can't even have been a lot for it to matter who was stronger though. Trunks was just too slow for it to matter his power. ASSJ Vegeta was unable to faze a heavily suppressed Perfect Cell. USSJ Trunks was stated to be more powerful than that SAME, heavily suppressed, Perfect Cell.

After all, we know Cell wasn't implying that USSJ Trunks > his own *maximum* power, because at the end of their battle Cell displayed the SAME USSJ-esque transformation/amp as Trunks, just to mock him:
https://i.imgur.com/fBiZvzP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/U5Wve8Y.jpg
IOW, at any point Cell could have bulked-up and started cranking out the same raw ki as USSJ Trunks -- he simply *chose* not to. Based on that alone we know, for a fact, that Cell was only comparing USSJ Trunks to his current, heavily suppressed level... Because even that bulked-up form was still nowhere near his 'full' power.

As mentioned above: Trunks, Vegeta, Piccolo and Krillin simply would not have been awestruck by the ki FPSSJ Goku was generating if USSJ Trunks had already generated a ki =/> full power Perfect Cell. Heck, Krillin(who personally sensed the power of USSJ Trunks at ground zero) explicitly stated: " CHI is immeasurable..! He's beyond ALL of us!":
https://i.imgur.com/rIOkTbD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cWpmt9Q.jpg
*And that's aside from Trunks himself(after training in the RoSaT a SECOND time, mind you) stating that Goku's chi was "unbelievable"...


tl;dr
All context considered, this is how I view the *raw ki* output of these characters:
Perfect Cell(power-weighted) > Perfect Cell(full power) > Perfect Cell(slightly suppressed) ~ FPSSJ Goku >>> USSJ Trunks = Perfect Cell(bulked-up) > Perfect Cell(heavily suppressed) >>> ASSJ Vegeta.

DeadpoolXXX
Thx for all the responses guy! super fun reading all of this! big grin

Originally posted by Galan007
Not exactly. Cell was treating FPSSJ Goku like an equal/peer, even though he still wasn't using his full power during their fight.

ASSJ Vegeta was unable to faze a heavily suppressed Perfect Cell. USSJ Trunks was stated to be more powerful than that SAME, heavily suppressed, Perfect Cell.

After all, we know Cell wasn't implying that USSJ Trunks > his own *maximum* power, because at the end of their battle Cell displayed the SAME USSJ-esque transformation/amp as Trunks, just to mock him:
https://i.imgur.com/fBiZvzP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/U5Wve8Y.jpg
IOW, at any point Cell could have bulked-up and started cranking out the same raw ki as USSJ Trunks -- he simply *chose* not to. Based on that alone we know, for a fact, that Cell was only comparing USSJ Trunks to his current, heavily suppressed level... Because even that bulked-up form was still nowhere near his 'full' power.

As mentioned above: Trunks, Vegeta, Piccolo and Krillin simply would not have been awestruck by the ki FPSSJ Goku was generating if USSJ Trunks had already generated a ki =/> full power Perfect Cell. Heck, Krillin(who personally sensed the power of USSJ Trunks at ground zero) explicitly stated: " CHI is immeasurable..! He's beyond ALL of us!":
https://i.imgur.com/rIOkTbD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cWpmt9Q.jpg
*And that's aside from Trunks himself(after training in the RoSaT a SECOND time, mind you) stating that Goku's chi was "unbelievable"...


tl;dr
All context considered, this is how I view the *raw ki* output of these characters:
Perfect Cell(power-weighted) > Perfect Cell(full power) > Perfect Cell(slightly suppressed) ~ FPSSJ Goku >>> USSJ Trunks = Perfect Cell(bulked-up) > Perfect Cell(heavily suppressed) >>> ASSJ Vegeta.

maybe its just cus i havent read or watched the cell saga for a long time, but I didn't realize prefect Cell had so many different transformations and levels. good stuff tho. big grin

Galan007
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
maybe its just cus i havent read or watched the cell saga for a long time, but I didn't realize prefect Cell had so many different transformations and levels. good stuff tho. big grin They aren't transformations, per se(though the power-weighted version could certainly be seen as such, given the extreme physical change) -- they're essentially just various levels of Perfect Cell's power.

This is 'power-weighted' Cell- seen when he became enraged with SSJ2 Gohan:
https://i.imgur.com/gEWxyaC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9tiPVDA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kynxKZl.jpg

This is Cell's 'full power'- seen against SSJ2 Gohan:
https://i.imgur.com/uSwhlK9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xZQIjI7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oK14gSL.jpg

This is Cell's 'slightly suppressed' state- seen when he powered up substantially against FPSSJ Goku:
https://i.imgur.com/csNvDdy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/B8bdseb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yjfMktR.jpg

This, again, is Cell's 'bulked-up/USSJ-esque' power- seen when he trolled Trunks:
https://i.imgur.com/fBiZvzP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/U5Wve8Y.jpg

This is Cell's 'heavily suppressed' state- seen just after absorbing #18, and fighting ASSJ Vegeta + USSJ Trunks w/o ever powering up:
https://i.imgur.com/c9qR2kA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ib9IGPy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wBDVm2N.jpg

Inedian
Cell would reach SSBx20KK in two months.

Galan007
No joke.

First and foremost, Cell has the potential of Goku/Vegeta AND Freeza -- and we've seen the tremendous leaps they can make in very short periods of time ala DBS. He's also got Freeza's ability to *survive* damn near ANY injury, and Piccolo's ability to *heal* damn near ANY injury. On top of that, we know Cell's body has the innate ability of 'keeping' power after sampling it(that's why he still grew back into his 'Perfect' form, even without #18) -- not to mention the Saiyan trait of receiving zenkais from battle/injury, and becoming more and more powerful as the fight progresses... So knowing what we know now, just imagine what Cell could accomplish with the same 4 months of training as Freeza!? F*cking insane... messed


The only other character in the franchise with *that* sort of latent potential is Pure Boo, imo. Think about it: Pure Boo was already SSJ3 Goku-level, and I highly doubt that he had ever formally trained a day in his life -- all he did for eons was go through random periods of destruction and hibernation, until Bibidi found a way seal him in the 'Boo-Ball'. Thus, any increases in power that Pure Boo gained over the years were from either a.) his ability to adapt/evolve to his opponents on the fly, or b.) via absorption... So just imagine if he were to buckle down and actually train for a while..? I believe his gains would blow those of even Freeza out of the water.

And on that note, I'd bet that's why Oob will be so special in the future. He is the reincarnation of Pure Boo, after all, so he should have Boo's level of latent potential. Even factoring in the events of DBS thus far, it makes sense why EoZ Goku would be so excited at the thought of training Oob -- the potential there is staggering, tbh.

Ridley_Prime

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Galan007
True. thumb up


Base GT Goku also effortlessly trounced Cell(I'm assuming he would've still been SPC) and Freeza, as though they were laughably weak fodder. What's more, Cell and Freeza had both been training extensively, and were each a good deal more powerful than they originally were.

*And for what it's worth- even at the start of BoG/DBS, base Goku was still weaker than Freeza. So yeah...

Don't forget about this...

_X3TaGZGGcQ

Base Goku beat the SSJ out of Gohan and Goten, when they were controlled by Baby.

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