Krillin vs Roshi vs Tien (ToP)

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Interneton
Which human takes it?

Ridley_Prime
Certainly not Tien.

Galan007
Krillin has been considered to be the most powerful earthling in DB since the Android/Cell saga, and that still holds true now(see Krillin's fight with Majora in the ToP.)

Aside from that, Toei's official website also states that Krillin is the most powerful earthling by the time the ToP takes place.

Imo, Krillin > Roshi > Tien

cdtm
Kikoho ftw.

Inedian
Sadly how low has Tien fallen. He should be the best earthing.

Galan007
No kidding.

Tien hasn't been above Krillin since the Saiyan saga. It's when Krillin went to Namek and got his power unlocked by Guru, that he really skyrocketed above the other earthlings... And they've never caught up to him since. ermm

StiltmanFTW
You presented plenty of evidence in your earlier posts, but I still don't buy it.

I think you just like to jerk off short bald dudes, tbh.

Ridley_Prime

NotAllThatEvil
Honestly going through dragonball and z, krillin wss always depicted a little below yamcha and nowhere close to tien. I don't know why toriyama made him the strongest after the buy arc?

NotAllThatEvil
Buu *

Galan007
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Honestly going through dragonball and z, krillin wss always depicted a little below yamcha and nowhere close to tien. I don't know why toriyama made him the strongest after the buy arc? As mentioned above: during the Namek saga Krillin got a MASSIVE powerup ala Guru that put him WAY ahead of the other earthlings(his PL on Namek officially reached 75,000 "and still rising"wink... And he's been ahead ever since.

I highly doubt that will ever change, given Tori's love for the character(he and Goku are the franchise's 'OG' good guys, after all.) /shrug

NotAllThatEvil
Even after his namek power up, he wasn't any more impressive than any other human. Both yamcha and tien did more in the Android saga and they appeared stronger than him thanks to king kai training

Galan007
That's because after the Namek saga, almost NO emphasis was placed on earthlings for the rest of the series. Only now, in DBS, are earthlings back in the plot again(albeit minimally.)


What did Yamcha do in the Android saga except get one-pieced by #19..?

While Tien's Kikoho moment against Semi-Perfect Cell was cool and all, it was ultimately irrelevant and only succeeded in pushing Cell down for a few seconds. The Kikoho is very powerful, but it isn't versatile at all... Not to mention that it drains the user's ki VERY quickly. It's a hysterically inefficient attack, tbh.


That said, this is the ToP era earthlings. Krillin is still the most powerful, period.

NotAllThatEvil
Not much happened for the humans in the Android saga, but yamcha and tien still did more than krillin. Yamcha wss confused for goku based on power level alone and figured out that they absorbed energy. Tien held cell back and attempted to fight 17, though he was quickly downed. Krillin just kinda stood there. I'm not arguing that krillin isn't the strongest, just saying that they did a horrible job portraying that. He always appeared weakest and I wouldn't have guessed he was even stronger than yamcha till toriyama came out and told us.

Galan007
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Yamcha wss confused for goku based on power level alone and figured out that they absorbed energy. The last time Gero's drones had monitored Goku was during the Saiyan saga, where his PL peaked at 32,000(/w/ KKx4). So even IF we assume Yamcha's PL was ~32,000 during the Android saga, Krillin's PL was still >75,000 on Namek, and he had been constantly training in the 3 years between sagas... So it's reasonable to assume he'd become a LOT more powerful by the time the Androids arrived. /shrug

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
I'm not arguing that krillin isn't the strongest, just saying that they did a horrible job portraying that. He always appeared weakest and I wouldn't have guessed he was even stronger than yamcha till toriyama came out and told us. Fair enough. I'm just glad you're not trying to argue Krillin's status as the most powerful earthling or w/e. thumb up

NotAllThatEvil
Ok, never use power level numbers as evidence for who is stronger. Toriyama said he only introduced them to show how inaccurate they were. Future trunks had a resting powerlevel of 5.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007
As mentioned above: during the Namek saga Krillin got a MASSIVE powerup ala Guru that put him WAY ahead of the other earthlings(his PL on Namek officially reached 75,000 "and still rising"wink... And he's been ahead ever since.

I highly doubt that will ever change, given Tori's love for the character(he and Goku are the franchise's 'OG' good guys, after all.) /shrug

At what point was he ever 75,000??

He certainly was not that strong when he fought the Ginyu force.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up

Dark-Kenshin
Roshi was the most impressive by far and has been given the best feats of the three throughout the tournament, so I give the nod to him.

carver9
Roshi had a plot weapon that helped him with those the. Anyways, I keep picturing Tien against Cell. He did extremely well. Goo enough to make me believe he is the most powerful here tbh. Tien and Roshi last battle shoiuld be thrown out of the window due to context and friendship.

carver9
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Ok, never use power level numbers as evidence for who is stronger. Toriyama said he only introduced them to show how inaccurate they were. Future trunks had a resting powerlevel of 5.

Future Trunks was increasing and decreasing his power level near instantly which is the reason it showed up as 5. He did that on purpose to make them believe he wasn't formidable.

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
At what point was he ever 75,000??

He certainly was not that strong when he fought the Ginyu force. V-Jump officially credits Krillin with a PL of 75k "and still rising" by the end of the Namek saga:
http://i.imgur.com/pBIAcT8.jpg

What most people don't realize is that the PLs of Krillin and Gohan continued to perpetually increase after the Guru unlock. When they fought the Ginyu Force they were still <40k. By the time they fought Freeza, however, things had obviously changed.

Damborgson
Besides the handbook, where was that even implied in the manga? Gohan is a Saiyan, of course he increases, but what single instance did Krillen get that would show such a massive power rise since that time?

V-jump is contradicting on panel evidence.

Galan007
It doesn't contradict the manga at all. Quite the contrary, actually...

When Gohan + Krillin + Vegeta encountered first form Freeza, Vegeta explicitly noted that Krillin and Gohan's PLs had been continuously rising the entire time:
https://i.imgur.com/PiJqNkA.jpg

And at that point they were powerful enough that all 3 of them could have beaten first form Freeza. Not just two of them, mind you... ALL THREE:
https://i.imgur.com/JCNbPaI.jpg
*And Freeza agreed(that's why he transformed to his 2nd level.)

This is important, because Nail's PL was 42,000 -- yet even his most powerful strikes/blasts couldn't even make Freeza flinch:
https://i.imgur.com/pxlgzN9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3EoTBzw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/awIxIyq.jpg


IOW, the only way for Krillin to have been any sort of 'help' against Freeza, is if his PL were >42k, at the very least... Otherwise his strikes/blasts would have been no more effective than Nail's were... So from *that* perspective, Krillin's PL of 75k "and still rising" makes a LOT more sense, imo.


...Aside from that, trying to argue with V-Jump is like trying to argue with the Daizenshuu. You can if you want, but ultimately canon sources outweigh personal opinions. /shrug

ares834
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Honestly going through dragonball and z, krillin wss always depicted a little below yamcha and nowhere close to tien. I don't know why toriyama made him the strongest after the buy arc?

Krillin was depicted a little below Yamcha? Wut. The only time Yamcha ever seemed more powerful was when Krillin first appeared before training with Roshi.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007
It doesn't contradict the manga at all. Quite the contrary, actually...

When Gohan + Krillin + Vegeta encountered first form Freeza, Vegeta explicitly noted that Krillin and Gohan's PLs had been continuously rising the entire time:
https://i.imgur.com/PiJqNkA.jpg

And at that point they were powerful enough that all 3 of them could have beaten first form Freeza. Not just two of them, mind you... ALL THREE:
https://i.imgur.com/JCNbPaI.jpg
*And Freeza agreed(that's why he transformed to his 2nd level.)

This is important, because Nail's PL was 42,000 -- yet even his most powerful strikes/blasts couldn't even make Freeza flinch:
https://i.imgur.com/pxlgzN9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3EoTBzw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/awIxIyq.jpg


IOW, the only way for Krillin to have been any sort of 'help' against Freeza, is if his PL were >42k, at the very least... Otherwise his strikes/blasts would have been no more effective than Nail's were... So from *that* perspective, Krillin's PL of 75k "and still rising" makes a LOT more sense, imo.


...Aside from that, trying to argue with V-Jump is like trying to argue with the Daizenshuu. You can if you want, but ultimately canon sources outweigh personal opinions. /shrug

That's fancy interpretation to say the least. Vegeta noting that, doesn't mean a thing in regard to Krillen. It could mean that he noticed how much stronger Krillen was, but doesn't mean that he grew in power after the Ginyu encounter. There's simply no reason for him to have gone up that ridiculously higher.

Re-read your own scan there Galan.

https://i.imgur.com/JCNbPaI.jpg

I would hope you know, that that means that because there's 3 of them, Vegeta thinks together they can win based on his performance against 1st form Frieza.

What you seem to be implying is that Krillen is capable of putting Frieza down, which...I have a hard time describing if you're actually arguing that.

That's not why Fireza transformed lol. He transformed because Vegeta called him out and said he might as well do it now. And probably because Vegeta looked capable at the time to dust him up a bit if he felt like it.

The Nail scans are operating under the assumption that Krillen would be stronger. And that needs to be proven first. That perspective is arguing something that isn't proven from the manga, and you're running on assumptions. For instance it's much much more likely that Vegeta was trying to psych Frieza out. He's not sweating from how confident he is.

I get what you're saying, Nail couldn't do anything, therefore Krillen couldn't either, but Frieza was 534k+, going up by 30K or so, would mean absolutely nothing anyway. Be honest, do you think 120K Ginyu could do anything at all to Frieza?

Common sense should never be tossed aside though, wouldn't you agree? And Krillen just doesn't have the showings to justify that large scale power up. The handbook can go **** itself thumb up

NotAllThatEvil
Originally posted by ares834
Krillin was depicted a little below Yamcha? Wut. The only time Yamcha ever seemed more powerful was when Krillin first appeared before training with Roshi.

Ignore meme culture and look at it again. Yamcha got farther in baba's tournament, gave tien a good fight, and decked god in the face with his spirit ball. Even tge siabaman made yamcha look more competent. Krillin was going to fight it but yamcha stopped him because he knew something was up while krillin evidently didn't notice. After yamcha beats it, he exclaims that taking on all the others all at once would be easy. After he explodes, piccolo said that the attack was impossible to gauge against and that it would have taken out any of them, including piccolo and gohan. Yamcha is now a gag character because he's so weak, but that's a relatively new thing. Even the fellows who worked on the show alongside toriyama thought he was stronger, that's how we got him beating recoome in a filler fight.

ares834
Yamcha got further in Baba's tournament because he went second and Krillin saved his ass anyways. And no, Yamcha didn't look better against the Saibamen. He "beats" one before is blows itself up killing them both. Meanwhile, Krillin casually kills three of them at once. Yamcha has sucked ever since the first arc.

Also lol at using the Kami fight for hyping Yamcha. The dude almost never looked more pathetic than he did there.

NotAllThatEvil
And krillin has never looked cool. He almost lost to someone because he forgot he didn't have a nose, lost to someone that puar and a small Indian boy could beat, had a crush on said small Indian, had to use math to beat a floating midget, and had his buddy take a siabaman shaped bullet for him. Yamcha has always been shown being more impressive.

ares834
lol

Krillin has never been a "cool" character. But that doesn't change the fact that Krillin has consistently been portrayed as more powerful. Just look at the Saibamen example you brought up. Yamcha dies against one whereas Krillin one shots three at once.

NotAllThatEvil
Yamcha did just as well as tien did and piccolo even says that a suicide attack like that would have killed any of the good guys. I know yamcha is a meme and a joke and it's super fun to make fun of him, but that's all newish. When dbz was still going, everyone thought yamcha was in the middle between tien and krillin with tien on the strong side.

ares834
I don't know this "everyone" you are talking about, but I have consistently though Krillin to be the stronger of the two. And the feats, IMO, support it.

carver9
Originally posted by Damborgson
That's fancy interpretation to say the least. Vegeta noting that, doesn't mean a thing in regard to Krillen. It could mean that he noticed how much stronger Krillen was, but doesn't mean that he grew in power after the Ginyu encounter. There's simply no reason for him to have gone up that ridiculously higher.

Re-read your own scan there Galan.

https://i.imgur.com/JCNbPaI.jpg

I would hope you know, that that means that because there's 3 of them, Vegeta thinks together they can win based on his performance against 1st form Frieza.

What you seem to be implying is that Krillen is capable of putting Frieza down, which...I have a hard time describing if you're actually arguing that.

That's not why Fireza transformed lol. He transformed because Vegeta called him out and said he might as well do it now. And probably because Vegeta looked capable at the time to dust him up a bit if he felt like it.

The Nail scans are operating under the assumption that Krillen would be stronger. And that needs to be proven first. That perspective is arguing something that isn't proven from the manga, and you're running on assumptions. For instance it's much much more likely that Vegeta was trying to psych Frieza out. He's not sweating from how confident he is.

I get what you're saying, Nail couldn't do anything, therefore Krillen couldn't either, but Frieza was 534k+, going up by 30K or so, would mean absolutely nothing anyway. Be honest, do you think 120K Ginyu could do anything at all to Frieza?

Common sense should never be tossed aside though, wouldn't you agree? And Krillen just doesn't have the showings to justify that large scale power up. The handbook can go **** itself thumb up

Good post.

AuraAngel
Krillin>Roshi>Tien probably.

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
I would hope you know, that that means that because there's 3 of them, Vegeta thinks together they can win based on his performance against 1st form Frieza. Eh, wut?

That is EXACTLY what I just said... Maybe YOU should reread MY post, lol..?

Originally posted by Damborgson
What you seem to be implying is that Krillen is capable of putting Frieza down, which...I have a hard time describing if you're actually arguing that. No, what I am 'implying' is that Vegeta+Gohan+Krillin could have beaten first form Freeza TOGETHER... Krillin was just powerful enough at that point to *help* them win. Simple. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
The Nail scans are operating under the assumption that Krillen would be stronger. And that needs to be proven first. That perspective is arguing something that isn't proven from the manga, and you're running on assumptions. For instance it's much much more likely that Vegeta was trying to psych Frieza out. He's not sweating from how confident he is. Eh, no. Gohan and Krillin soon agreed with Vegeta's assertion that they could beat Freeza TOGETHER... Are you going to pretend like ALL of them were trying to "psych Freeza out"? C'mon, lets not act purposefully ignorant here, lol.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I get what you're saying, Nail couldn't do anything, therefore Krillen couldn't either, but Frieza was 534k+, going up by 30K or so, would mean absolutely nothing anyway. Be honest, do you think 120K Ginyu could do anything at all to Frieza? Ginyu? Probably not.

Krillin /w/ a PL of ~75k + a Kienzan? Absolutely. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
Common sense should never be tossed aside though, wouldn't you agree? And Krillen just doesn't have the showings to justify that large scale power up. The handbook can go **** itself thumb up No, you're just opting to ignore the evidence I have provided, in favor of your own preconceived(and wholly unsupported) bias...
1.) I provided you scans of Vegeta outright saying that Krillin and Gohan's ki had continuously increased to the point where ALL THREE of them were capable of beating first form Freeza if they worked together.
2.) We literally SAW firsthand, that even a PL of 42,000 couldn't even make Freeza flinch. If Krillin's PL were still below that, he wouldn't have been able to provide any help whatsoever. Nail is the best gauge possible, tbh.
3.) Literally NO evidence...none/zip/zilch/nada...disproves the notion that Krillin's PL was 75k "and rising" at the end of the Namek saga, as V-Jump(a 100% canonical source) outright states.

*On that note, the burden of proof falls entirely on YOU to prove that Krillin did NOT have a PL of 75k. I have canon sources backing my stance... You have nothing but your own opinion. So until you provide something of substance to support this hand-waving away of facts that you're attempting to preform, I just cannot take you seriously. No offense, but canon is canon for a reason. srsly


...And here is the scan again, in case you overlooked it the first time:
https://i.imgur.com/PiJqNkA.jpg

This explicitly TELLS US that the powers of BOTH Gohan AND Krillin continuously increased on Namek(after the Guru-unlock), and were NEVER stagnant. That explains WHY Vegeta+Gohan+Krillin couldn't even beat Recoome(PL ~30k) earlier in the saga, but were able to beat first form Freeza(PL ~530k) later in the saga. Granted, the gains of Gohan and Vegeta vastly exceeded Krillin's, but his power was still perpetually increasing the entire time regardless.

It's actually harder to canonically imagine why it *wouldn't* be ~75k, tbh..? mmm

Nevan
Using Nail as an example is disingenuous since he doesn't know the Kienzan, which allowed Krillin to even harm second form Freeza.

Galan007
That's not the point.

He scoffed at the notion that Krillin, with a PL of 75k, would be of any assistance in a battle against first form Freeza. I was just reminding him one reason why Krillin *would* be an asset -- vastly inferior power notwithstanding. smile

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007
Eh, wut?

That is EXACTLY what I just said... Maybe YOU should reread MY post, lol..?

No, what I am 'implying' is that Vegeta+Gohan+Krillin could have beaten first form Freeza TOGETHER... Krillin was just powerful enough at that point to *help* them win. Simple. smile

Eh, no. Gohan and Krillin soon agreed with Vegeta's assertion that they could beat Freeza TOGETHER... Are you going to pretend like ALL of them were trying to "psych Freeza out"? C'mon, lets not act purposefully ignorant here, lol.

Ginyu? Probably not.

Krillin /w/ a PL of ~75k + a Kienzan? Absolutely. smile

No, you're just opting to ignore the evidence I have provided, in favor of your own preconceived(and wholly unsupported) bias...
1.) I provided you scans of Vegeta outright saying that Krillin and Gohan's ki had continuously increased to the point where ALL THREE of them were capable of beating first form Freeza if they worked together.
2.) We literally SAW firsthand, that even a PL of 42,000 couldn't even make Freeza flinch. If Krillin's PL were still below that, he wouldn't have been able to provide any help whatsoever. Nail is the best gauge possible, tbh.
3.) Literally NO evidence...none/zip/zilch/nada...disproves the notion that Krillin's PL was 75k "and rising" at the end of the Namek saga, as V-Jump(a 100% canonical source) outright states.

*On that note, the burden of proof falls entirely on YOU to prove that Krillin did NOT have a PL of 75k. I have canon sources backing my stance... You have nothing but your own opinion. So until you provide something of substance to support this hand-waving away of facts that you're attempting to preform, I just cannot take you seriously. No offense, but canon is canon for a reason. srsly


...And here is the scan again, in case you overlooked it the first time:
https://i.imgur.com/PiJqNkA.jpg

This explicitly TELLS US that the powers of BOTH Gohan AND Krillin continuously increased on Namek(after the Guru-unlock), and were NEVER stagnant. That explains WHY Vegeta+Gohan+Krillin couldn't even beat Recoome(PL ~30k) earlier in the saga, but were able to beat first form Freeza(PL ~530k) later in the saga. Granted, the gains of Gohan and Vegeta vastly exceeded Krillin's, but his power was still perpetually increasing the entire time regardless.

It's actually harder to canonically imagine why it *wouldn't* be ~75k, tbh..? mmm

Galan, you said this:

Originally posted by Galan007

And at that point they were powerful enough that all 3 of them could have beaten first form Freeza. Not just two of them, mind you... ALL THREE:
https://i.imgur.com/JCNbPaI.jpg
*And Freeza agreed(that's why he transformed to his 2nd level.)



I get your meaning now, but that's not at all what you were saying in the first post.

Simple smile

Okay, we have Vegeta, the most arrogant character in DBZ, especially during that time, a what, 6 year old Gohan? And Krillen. They all just saw Vegeta stand up to Frieza, are at the moment, experiencing more power than they every have, and you use them being optimistic about their chances as a means for Krillen being 75k+ lol? Please listen to yourself.

Galan erm The Kienzan is an obviously super hax attack, it hurt second form Frieza far worse than Vegeta's surprise attack from behind did. And it doesn't mean a damn thing.

Okay, the word ignore means to refuse to take notice of. What part of your post did I do that to? I have addressed all of the 'evidence' and told you why it's not very convincing. But let's do this again:

1) No, you didn't. You have a scan of Vegeta saying the Earthlings power keeps rising. And it did, but they're not Broly, and that scan doesn't say, it's rising as we speak, which is sort of what would have to happen to explain the sheer difference in power that Krillen would need to have.

This was his released Guru power during his confrontation with Ginyu:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uGs4u3Hs_aY/SqaVV-SxTEI/AAAAAAAAAgk/GFVwLzj4Goo/s1600/V-Jumpdaizen7.jpg

And it makes sense, as Guldo marked him to be going 10k+ during his power up.

You want to tell me, that Reecoome beating the shit out of him, made him be 7X stronger? Because that is the only difference he had between then and end of Frieza saga, aside from getting imapled on Friezas horn. That's bullshit, and you know it.

But wait, Damborgson, you're using numbers too! Because Guldo basically confirmed that one, I just am afraid of giving my computer aids from looking up the free manga sites on here.

2. That is the definition of false logic. If Krillen weren't what you said he was, he wouldn't be a help at all lol? Vegeta may have thought that, but he also thought Frieza wasn't going to be all that different after his first transformation. That alone, cannot be taken into consideration as evidence to support the 75k+ claim, it's overestimation, and taking what he can get. Plus, it could very well be the kienzan he was taking into consideration, along with his other useful ability the tayo ken.

3. I don't have to prove a negative. And as you can see there's plenty of evidence. That's great it's canon, but it's bullshit. Did you know Cho Hulk did this:
https://i.imgur.com/mdWCwuX.jpg

He'd bust the freaking galaxy, he'd break Beerus' jaw. And that is one tough moon, canon though.

The rest is just filler since you already had said it.
Originally posted by Galan007
That's not the point.

He scoffed at the notion that Krillin, with a PL of 75k, would be of any assistance in a battle against first form Freeza. I was just reminding him one reason why Krillin *would* be an asset -- vastly inferior power notwithstanding. smile

Lol, look at you slipping your point in there. And is that goal post moving? You have some of the most extra posts I have ever read laughing out loud

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
Galan, you said this:

I get your meaning now, but that's not at all what you were saying in the first post.

Simple I know what I said, lol. You somehow managed to grossly misinterpret it... Like you've done with SO many things in this discussion.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Okay, we have Vegeta, the most arrogant character in DBZ, especially during that time, a what, 6 year old Gohan? And Krillen. They all just saw Vegeta stand up to Frieza, are at the moment, experiencing more power than they every have, and you use them being optimistic about their chances as a means for Krillen being 75k+ lol? Please listen to yourself. Lol, so now Toriyama's intent was for Vegeta, Krillin, AND Gohan to all be lying about their ability to defeat Freeza as a team..?

Please, listen to YOURself. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Damborgson
Galan The Kienzan is an obviously super hax attack, it hurt second form Frieza far worse than Vegeta's surprise attack from behind did. And it doesn't mean a damn thing. Stop moving goalposts. You were insinuating that even with a PL of 75,000, Krillin would have been unable to help against first form Freeza in the slightest... I just reminded you how wrong that assumption was. Simple.

Maybe next time think before you speak..? Just a thought. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
1) No, you didn't. You have a scan of Vegeta saying the Earthlings power keeps rising. And it did, but they're not Broly, and that scan doesn't say, it's rising as we speak, which is sort of what would have to happen to explain the sheer difference in power that Krillen would need to have. Good lord.

Vegeta explicitly states: "the earthlings' battle strengths KEEP RISING!" Obviously Krillin's PL didn't increase as much as Gohan's, but it DID increase perpetually nonetheless throughout the entire saga. Ergo: 'KEEPS RISING!'

Simple concepts are simple. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
This was his released Guru power during his confrontation with Ginyu:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uGs4u3Hs_aY/SqaVV-SxTEI/AAAAAAAAAgk/GFVwLzj4Goo/s1600/V-Jumpdaizen7.jpg

And it makes sense, as Guldo marked him to be going 10k+ during his power up. I find it hilarious that you're acting like you've 'proven' something to me with this PL sheet, lol. I have specifically referenced the fact that Krillin was initially much weaker than members of the Ginyu Force(ie. Recoome) a few times in this very thread... This tells me you aren't even taking the time to read/compute/comprehend my posts at all, and are arguing for the sake of arguing. You're better than that. thumb up

I KNOW what Krillin's PL was before; I KNOW what Krillin's PL was after... And it falls perfectly in-line with Vegeta's statement that his power 'KEEPS RISING!' Simple. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
You want to tell me, that Reecoome beating the shit out of him, made him be 7X stronger? Because that is the only difference he had between then and end of Frieza saga, aside from getting imapled on Friezas horn. That's bullshit, and you know it. I'm not telling you anything that wasn't directly stated in a CANON source. I couldn't care less if you like or agree with it, but Krillin's PL canonically DID increase that much. Period.

Originally posted by Damborgson
But wait, Damborgson, you're using numbers too! Because Guldo basically confirmed that one, I just am afraid of giving my computer aids from looking up the free manga sites on here. See above. Had you actually been reading my posts, you'd know that I have already acknowledged Krillin initially being far weaker than the likes of Recoome -- this isn't late breaking news, lol. Calm down and pay attention, please. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
2. That is the definition of false logic. If Krillen weren't what you said he was, he wouldn't be a help at all lol? Vegeta may have thought that, but he also thought Frieza wasn't going to be all that different after his first transformation. That alone, cannot be taken into consideration as evidence to support the 75k+ claim, it's overestimation, and taking what he can get. Plus, it could very well be the kienzan he was taking into consideration, along with his other useful ability the tayo ken. Right, right... I forgot that Toriyama's intent was for all three characters to be lying to us about their ability to defeat first form Freeza as a team. How silly of me... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Damborgson
3. I don't have to prove a negative. And as you can see there's plenty of evidence. What's not computing here?

A 100% canon source states that Krillin's PL was 75,000 "and still rising" toward the end of the Namek saga. The burden of proof falls entirely on YOU to disprove that canonical source, and so far all you've done is show me what Krillin's PL was EARLIER in the saga(which I have already acknowledged, mind you.) And given that Krillin's power 'KEPT RISING!' throughout the entire arc, a fixed PL from earlier in the story doesn't cut it, obviously.

It's not rocket science. srsly

Originally posted by Damborgson
That's great it's canon, but it's bullshit. Did you know Cho Hulk did this:
https://i.imgur.com/mdWCwuX.jpg Lol? This isn't the comic book forums, bud. none

In DB, sources like V-Jump and the Daizenshuu are just as canon as the manga itself. Trying to act like those canon sources are "bullshit" solely because you don't like what they say is unbelievably stupid, tbh.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Lol, look at you slipping your point in there. And is that goal post moving? You have some of the most extra posts I have ever read *sighs* Stop embarrassing yourself.

You tried to act like even with a PL of 75k, Krillin wouldn't be able to do anything at all to first form Freeza, so I simply reminded you how wrong you were... If THAT is your definition of 'moving goalposts', then I can see why you're having such a difficult time comprehending this discussion. laughing out loud

DeadpoolXXX
Originally posted by ares834
I don't know this "everyone" you are talking about, but I have consistently though Krillin to be the stronger of the two. And the feats, IMO, support it. agree with this. cool

DeadpoolXXX
and vJump is a factual reference for dragonball. just like interviews from AT, anything from the Diazenshuus, and facts listed on the japanese Toei site. arguing any of those would be pointless because the are irrefutible sources.

*sorry for the doublepost* embarrasment

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007


What do you mean somehow? laughing out loud That was very poor sentence structure, is English not your first language? If it is, accept that it was confusion and move on.

When in a corner, resort to over exaggerating what the other says? I certainly did not say they were lying, I'm saying Vegeta was trying to pick at Frieza's confidence, and Krillen and Gohan were inspired and optimistic enough to believe it. This is disappointing, you should have a higher standard of debating.

And I'm right, 75K is nothing to Frieza. I even mentioned that 120K, i.e. Ginyu, would be useless as well. We are not talking about the Kienza. We are talking about power levels, WHICH YOU SPECIFICALLY USED NAIL AS A REFERENCE POINT TO 'PROVE' THAT KRILLEN WOULD HAVE TO BE BY EXTENSION HIGHER TO BE USEFUL. But no, you meant the kienzan? That is goal post moving my friend.
Originally posted by Galan007
This is important, because Nail's PL was 42,000 -- yet even his most powerful strikes/blasts couldn't even make Freeza flinch:
IOW, the only way for Krillin to have been any sort of 'help' against Freeza, is if his PL were >42k, at the very least... Otherwise his strikes/blasts would have been no more effective than Nail's were... So from *that* perspective, Krillin's PL of 75k "and still rising" makes a LOT more sense, imo.


I told you, that was false logic. You saw it, and now you want to change it. Go ahead and change it, but don't act like you didn't have a flimsy assumption. Because the kienzan works basically regardless of power level, therefore Krillen didn't 'have' to have over 42k, he'd be lucky if he hit 20k by the end of the saga.

Here's the evidence you've presented, since you keep saying I'm ignoring you or something.

1. Vegeta vaguely said that the Earthlings keep getting stronger. Okay, yes, that doesn't mean constant rises so intense it increased Krillens battle strength X7 every time he gets kicked by Reecome.

2. Vegeta said Krillen is useful in a fight against first form frieza, more or less. You tried to tie this up neatly by saying that because Nail was useless, Krillen must be substantially stronger. So I say that even a Ginyu level character would be useless essentially, but you say that you mean the kienzan, yet it's not a power level dependent attack in the typical sense we're used to, so the point is moot.

3. The handbook entry. "IT'S CANON SO STOP QUESTIONING IT" screams the forum goer. And I show that while things are canon, they don't make sense always. See Cho. "It's not a comic book forum section bro" which addresses exactly nothing, as I'm attacking the logic behind the assumption that the handbook is unshakeable, and since you didn't properly respond to that, you've now got a hole to patch up thumb up

Last, I'm not questioning the handbook or calling it bullshit because I don't like it...lol. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense, and I don't have to accept it as evidence for a claim that is outlandish.

Even kid trunks being slightly higher than normal super saiyan gohan has more evidence than this 75k power level nonsense.

So you tell me, where I'm failing to anything, since nothing I posted there wasn't previously repeated in a post.

And lol, telling me to calm down. You're uncharacteristically bitchy, most of your post was bitchyness. I'm always this way thumb up

Also, lmao at how extra your posts are. I couldn't even quote you because of how much crap it's bogged down with. So many "smile", and "thumb up" that I posted too many images at at time lol.

carver9
Damborgson vs Galan. Bringing out the popcorn.

AuraAngel
I'm not really sure why this is an argument. Krillin is stronger than Tien by both feats, Word of God, and general common sense.

cdtm
Originally posted by AuraAngel
I'm not really sure why this is an argument. Krillin is stronger than Tien by both feats, Word of God, and general common sense.

Maybe, but Tien probably has the more effective attack.

Cell and destroying Buu's attack prove it's much harder to dodge then the Kienzan, and packs a much bigger punch then anything in the human weight class.

Kento
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Krillin is stronger than Tien by both feats,. What feats?

AuraAngel
Originally posted by Kento
What feats?

Doing better against the Saibamen, Nappa, and Gohan/Goku in Super.

Admittedly not seen all of Super. Maybe Tien is awesome there. From what I've seen he is very underwhelming while Krillin has literally never looked better than he does now.

Originally posted by cdtm
Maybe, but Tien probably has the more effective attack.

Cell and destroying Buu's attack prove it's much harder to dodge then the Kienzan, and packs a much bigger punch then anything in the human weight class.

Tien can have the better attack since Krillin is easily the better fighter now. Kikoho isn't impossible to dodge and more importantly I don't think Tien has an answer to Krillin's new and improved Solar Flare/spammable destructo discs.

cdtm
Remember Ten invented the solar flare. It might be improved, but he should still see it coming a mile away.

Old Kikoho was easily dodged, the newer Shinkikoho is quick enough to swat down ki attacks and a more powerful (faster) Cell.

It may not be undodgeable, but based on feats none of the humans are likely to avoid it.

Kento
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Doing better against the Saibamen, Nappa, and Gohan/Goku in Super.
. By official power levels, during the arc of Saiyan Saga Tien was the strongest human...

Also, Krillen may have killed most the saibamen in one attack, but it was a special attack. Tien pretty much did more with a elbow than Yamcha did with a Kamehameha.

During during Super, Tien has had terrible showings though.

cdtm
It was his special move "spirit bomb" (Japanese), not a Kamehameha. Same one that rocked Kami.

AuraAngel
Originally posted by cdtm
Remember Ten invented the solar flare. It might be improved, but he should still see it coming a mile away.

Old Kikoho was easily dodged, the newer Shinkikoho is quick enough to swat down ki attacks and a more powerful (faster) Cell.

It may not be undodgeable, but based on feats none of the humans are likely to avoid it.

And do what? It's not really an attack one can easily do anything about and if Krillin can sneak Destructo Discs past Goku I'm not sure I can give Tien the edge.

And while Tien certainly knows what Krillin can do, the same is true in reverse. And unlike Tien, Krillin is a much smarter fighter.

Originally posted by Kento
By official power levels, during the arc of Saiyan Saga Tien was the strongest human...

Also, Krillen may have killed most the saibamen in one attack, but it was a special attack. Tien pretty much did more with a elbow than Yamcha did with a Kamehameha.

During during Super, Tien has had terrible showings though.

And Toriyama notably loathes power levels.

Krillin almost killed Nappa and was able to dodge some of his attacks after firing off his special move that wiped the Saibamen.

Yeah if Super weren't a factor it would be closer at least but Krillin has a better sparring partner, is shown improving old techniques, and is relying on some devious tactics to overcome powergaps.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Admittedly not seen all of Super. Maybe Tien is awesome there. From what I've seen he is very underwhelming while Krillin has literally never looked better than he does now.
Underwhelming? That's not even the half of it. All you need to know about current Tien...

42HNvl0e26I

Before that phuckery, it was usually at least interesting comparing Krillen and Tien, even if Krillen had a certain edge, but now you can't even do that. Simply put, Krillen advanced as a fighter, while Tien remained stuck in the past.

AuraAngel
That was a whiney video lol.

Tien gets the raw end of the deal but compared to others he is fine.

Ridley_Prime

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
What do you mean somehow? laughing out loud That was very poor sentence structure, is English not your first language? If it is, accept that it was confusion and move on.

When in a corner, resort to over exaggerating what the other says? I certainly did not say they were lying, I'm saying Vegeta was trying to pick at Frieza's confidence, and Krillen and Gohan were inspired and optimistic enough to believe it. This is disappointing, you should have a higher standard of debating.

And I'm right, 75K is nothing to Frieza. I even mentioned that 120K, i.e. Ginyu, would be useless as well. We are not talking about the Kienza. We are talking about power levels, WHICH YOU SPECIFICALLY USED NAIL AS A REFERENCE POINT TO 'PROVE' THAT KRILLEN WOULD HAVE TO BE BY EXTENSION HIGHER TO BE USEFUL. But no, you meant the kienzan? That is goal post moving my friend.


I told you, that was false logic. You saw it, and now you want to change it. Go ahead and change it, but don't act like you didn't have a flimsy assumption. Because the kienzan works basically regardless of power level, therefore Krillen didn't 'have' to have over 42k, he'd be lucky if he hit 20k by the end of the saga.

Here's the evidence you've presented, since you keep saying I'm ignoring you or something.

1. Vegeta vaguely said that the Earthlings keep getting stronger. Okay, yes, that doesn't mean constant rises so intense it increased Krillens battle strength X7 every time he gets kicked by Reecome.

2. Vegeta said Krillen is useful in a fight against first form frieza, more or less. You tried to tie this up neatly by saying that because Nail was useless, Krillen must be substantially stronger. So I say that even a Ginyu level character would be useless essentially, but you say that you mean the kienzan, yet it's not a power level dependent attack in the typical sense we're used to, so the point is moot.

3. The handbook entry. "IT'S CANON SO STOP QUESTIONING IT" screams the forum goer. And I show that while things are canon, they don't make sense always. See Cho. "It's not a comic book forum section bro" which addresses exactly nothing, as I'm attacking the logic behind the assumption that the handbook is unshakeable, and since you didn't properly respond to that, you've now got a hole to patch up thumb up

Last, I'm not questioning the handbook or calling it bullshit because I don't like it...lol. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense, and I don't have to accept it as evidence for a claim that is outlandish.

Even kid trunks being slightly higher than normal super saiyan gohan has more evidence than this 75k power level nonsense.

So you tell me, where I'm failing to anything, since nothing I posted there wasn't previously repeated in a post.

And lol, telling me to calm down. You're uncharacteristically bitchy, most of your post was bitchyness. I'm always this way thumb up

Also, lmao at how extra your posts are. I couldn't even quote you because of how much crap it's bogged down with. So many "smile", and "thumb up" that I posted too many images at at time lol. Ahh, so now comes the part where you start ignoring the bulk of my posts, in favor of going on a faux-intellectual tirade..? Lol, gotcha. thumb up

I honestly should have known this debate would go nowhere when you acted like your personal opinion supersedes V-Jump -- silly me for thinking you might come to your senses. That said, you STILL failed to 'prove' why Krillin's PL wasn't 75k on Namek, but that's no great surprise -- you're clearly getting confused by your own red herrings and goal post moving at this point. I highly doubt you will ever actually 'prove' anything(aside from how much you can rant of course), but I digress...

This discussion sure has been... enlightening, if nothing else. smile

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007
Ahh, so now comes the part where you start ignoring the bulk of my posts, in favor of going on a faux-intellectual tirade..? Lol, gotcha. thumb up

I honestly should have known this debate would go nowhere when you acted like your personal opinion supersedes V-Jump -- silly me for thinking you might come to your senses. That said, you STILL failed to 'prove' why Krillin's PL wasn't 75k on Namek, but that's no great surprise -- you're clearly getting confused by your own red herrings and goal post moving at this point. I highly doubt you will ever actually 'prove' anything(aside from how much you can rant of course), but I digress...

This discussion sure has been... enlightening, if nothing else. smile

You point at a single part that I've honest to goodness, ignored. Go ahead. I'm not being sarcasitc, I'm asking you, what part of your post did you feel was not addressed ? Because you skipped chunks of mine which I assume you found to be redundant last time, that's what I'm doing here.

We're presenting our points, me disagreeing with you doesn't mean we're going nowhere, even agreeing to disagree is going somewhere eventually.

If you're going to make claims, point to some evidence. Where did I, on any level, say that strictly because of my opinion, that power level is bullshit? It's based on it not fitting with the manga. Which I went into detail as to why I think that. Don't act like this has been some ridiculous notion after ridiculous notion. You're damn well aware of why I think what I do. It may be canon, but it doesn't make sense, and I've expressed why.

That you find no meaning behind this, reflects poorly on you, not me lol. And from your tone I assume you're not interested in continuing? I would say it was fun but it kind of just disappointed.

Nice use of buzz words though. It seems to be your style. Scan dump, emphasis on certain words, tangent, buzz words, sarcasm, quits.

Galan007
Lol, this discussion ISN'T going anywhere.

-You're STILL pretending like you're opinion supersedes V-Jump... It doesn't(V-Jump > You.)
-You STILL haven't 'proven' why Krillin's PL wasn't 75,000 at the end of the Namek saga, like V-Jump states.
-You're STILL just...ranting.

The incessant red herrings and goal-post-movery you throw around might get you places with other people, but I see right through those kind of... 'tactics'. smile


And yes, I DO tend to place 'emphasis' on canonical evidence... Silly me for emphasizing fact/truth. laughing out loud

And yes, I DO tend to withdraw myself from the discussion when people repeatedly ignore said evidence. After all, if someone is willing to entirely ignore canon facts and pretend like their personal opinion is more credible, where can the discussion possibly go but downhill? I certainly don't like to argue for arguments sake. Do YOU, lol?


...But you're more than welcome to keep pretending like my use of the aforementioned canonical evidence is in some way 'illogical' or whathaveyou... I hate to knock anybody's delusions opinions. thumb up

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, this discussion ISN'T going anywhere.

-You're STILL pretending like you're opinion supersedes V-Jump... It doesn't(V-Jump > You.)
-You STILL haven't 'proven' why Krillin's PL wasn't 75,000 at the end of the Namek saga, like V-Jump states.
-You're STILL just...ranting.

The incessant red herrings and goal-post-movery you throw around might get you places with other people, but I see right through those kind of... 'tactics'. smile


And yes, I DO tend to place 'emphasis' on canonical evidence... Silly me for emphasizing fact/truth. laughing out loud

And yes, I DO tend to withdraw myself from the discussion when people repeatedly ignore said evidence. After all, if someone is willing to entirely ignore canon facts and pretend like their personal opinion is more credible, where can the discussion possibly go but downhill? I certainly don't like to argue for arguments sake. Do YOU, lol?


...But you're more than welcome to keep pretending like my use of the aforementioned canonical evidence is in some way 'illogical' or whathaveyou... I hate to knock anybody's delusions opinions. thumb up


Hey, answer my question. Or can you not?

Originally posted by Damborgson
You point at a single part that I've honest to goodness, ignored. Go ahead. I'm not being sarcasitc, I'm asking you, what part of your post did you feel was not addressed ?

And now, point to what part is a red herring. To my understanding, that's a term used for intentional misleading of the point. Which you should be able to easily look for if it's there. And last, point to a single part where I moved goal posts.

I already quoted where you did, you have not done it once.

Okay, maybe you don't actually know what that means. Because no one, certainly not me, is ignoring anything. It's been addressed. Screaming "it's canon, your opinion doesn't matter" isn't a credible way of going about this if a solid argument as to why taking it with a grain of salt has been presented, which I did. There was no hand waving at any point.

Lol, your posts consist more of condescending remarks and sarcastic replies than they do actual content. I have given you points to refute, you are not taking the time to address or consider them, and if it were so obvious, so easy to prove me wrong, then you should do so. I don't argue for the sake of sticking to my point blindly, and I'm not doing it now.

Just to make sure you don't say I'm ignoring you again, let's talk about your 3 points:

- My opinion is > Jump> It's not, it's still canon, but I've pointed to why it doesn't make sense, and have little reason to accept it logically.
- Krillen has literally no indication in the manga at any point that would concrete that power level. The last time he powered up, he was at less than 20k. And then Vegeta says some vague remark about him getting stronger, which you misinterpret, or at the least we have varying interpretations on, and you expect me to just accept that he's gone up by approximately 62k? After his latent 'potential' has been drawn out already no less lol?
-That might sound good in your post, but it's not based on any of my posts. Ranting would suggest a wild or senseless tirade, which I have not done. I'll add another dollar to your buzzword jar. thumb up

Galan007
You're essentially saying that you refuse to accept canon evidence as fact, lol... This is why I cannot take your argument seriously, and never will. smile

You are evidently not familiar with V-Jump(otherwise you wouldn't be arguing against it so vehemently), but it...along with the Daizenshuu for that matter...contains quite a bit of information that is not explicitly written in the manga. That doesn't make said information any less canon, however -- the ENTIRE PURPOSE of these sources is to canonically expand upon the manga, after all.

Once more: V-Jump, the Daizenshuu, official interviews with Toriyama, and any facts/info presented on the official Toei site, are all of EQUAL canonicity as the manga itself, period. You seem to be having a very difficult time grasping such a simple concept, and I can't help but think it's because you are being purposefully intransigent. I cannot imagine any other reason why someone would try to handwave away canon facts like this. It's weird... ermm

Lastly(and as I have repeatedly stated): just because Krillin had a PL of 13k earlier in the story certainly does NOT mean it didn't increase to 75k by the END of the story(as V-Jump states in black and white.) After all, we know for a FACT that his PL continuously increased throughout the entire story -- Vegeta explicitly stated such. You're just twisting and outright ignoring the canon evidence at hand, simply because you don't like it. Frankly, your personal opinion is wholly irrelevant -- I only care about what can be *proven*.

*The rest of your post is just you trying to pull me into your little rant... It's not going to happen. Either stay on point, or don't bother responding. thumb up



{edit}
I've literally said this exact same shit a dozen times at least. This circular BS is getting old. If you're not going to accept canon/V-Jump, just tell me now so we can be done. I'd rather not continue wasting time going in circles like this... none

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007
You're essentially saying that you refuse to accept canon evidence as fact, lol... This is why I cannot take your argument seriously, and never will. smile


Then you're a fool thumb up Not much to it.

It must be nice to just look at paper and not have to think about it though, even if it's limiting. You are trying to make what I'm saying sound bewildering, so I'm going to ask you, and do try to not go around it like you tend to do.

In your opinion, does that handbook entry make any sense at all? Do you really think after this:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/29361/5035351-ep64cap15.jpg

Krillens power then began to rise so rapidly that by the time the whole ordeal was over he was almost 6 times stronger?

YES OR NO?

We can agree it's canon, can we agree it's bullshit?


Originally posted by Galan007
You are evidently not familiar with V-Jump(otherwise you wouldn't be arguing against it so vehemently), but it...along with the Daizenshuu for that matter...contains quite a bit of information that is not explicitly written in the manga. That doesn't make said information any less canon, however -- the ENTIRE PURPOSE of these sources is to canonically expand upon the manga, after all.


That's great, but it doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
Once more: V-Jump, the Daizenshuu, official interviews with Toriyama, and any facts/info presented on the official Toei site, are all of EQUAL canonicity as the manga itself, period. You seem to be having a very difficult time grasping such a simple concept, and I can't help but think it's because you are being purposefully intransigent. I cannot imagine any other reason why someone would try to handwave away canon facts like this. It's weird... ermm


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DevotedKindGuillemot-max-1mb.gif

I'm not purposely unwilling to do this. What I refuse to do, is accept something blindly. It's canon in the handbook, it's equal canonicty to the manga, and it doesn't make a lick of sense. It has exactly zero concrete evidence to it besides the entry, which is unexplained. With that power level, after recovering from Reecoome, Krillen would have the power to beat the snot out of the Ginyu force likely on his own, except Ginyu himself. Handwaving doesn't mean what you think it means.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lastly(and as I have repeatedly stated): just because Krillin had a PL of 13k earlier in the story certainly does NOT mean it didn't increase to 75k by the END of the story(as V-Jump states in black and white.) After all, we know for a FACT that his PL continuously increased throughout the entire story -- Vegeta explicitly stated such. You're just twisting and outright ignoring the canon evidence at hand, simply because you don't like it. Frankly, your personal opinion is wholly irrelevant -- I only care about what can be *proven*.


Ignore doesn't mean what you think it means either.

You use the word opinion, as if they don't carry weight behind them. They do, and in this case, very much so as it comes with good arguments behind it. At least now though, I understand why you're being so difficult about this. It probably gives you a sense of stability to not have to think about things regardless of whether they make sense or not.

Originally posted by Galan007
*The rest of your post is just you trying to pull me into your little rant... It's not going to happen. Either stay on point, or don't bother responding. thumb up



{edit}
I've literally said this exact same shit a dozen times at least. This circular BS is getting old. If you're not going to accept canon/V-Jump, just tell me now so we can be done. I'd rather not continue wasting time going in circles like this... none


Diminutive adjectives to try and lessen my reasoning? lol.

Galan, you seem to think repeating something makes it true? That's great that you've said it a lot, it's not that I'm not picking it up on it there oh wise firefighter, it's that I don't agree with it.

You're more than welcome to leave. I'm interested in talking, but you can turn tail if you'd like.

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
It must be nice to just look at paper and not have to think about it though, even if it's limiting. When the 'paper' in question is CANON EVIDENCE, yes... It IS pretty nice to have in my corner. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
You are trying to make what I'm saying sound bewildering, so I'm going to ask you, and do try to not go around it like you tend to do.

In your opinion, does that handbook entry make any sense at all? Do you really think after this:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/29361/5035351-ep64cap15.jpg

Krillens power then began to rise so rapidly that by the time the whole ordeal was over he was almost 6 times stronger?

YES OR NO? Lol, what kind of question is this? Obviously I DO think he was that powerful... What in the f*ck do you think we have been discussing this entire time..? laughing out loud

As I have reiterated numerous times:
Just because Krillin had a PL of 13k earlier in the story certainly does NOT mean it didn't increase to 75k by the END of the story(as V-Jump states.) After all, we know for a FACT that his PL continuously increased throughout the entire story -- VEGETA EXPLICITLY STATED SUCH. You're just twisting/ignoring the canon evidence at hand, simply because you don't like it. Frankly, your personal opinion is wholly irrelevant... I only care about what can be definitively *proven* -- and Krillin's PL of 75k CAN BE definitively *proven* with CANON EVIDENCE. Period.

...It's an unbelievably simple concept, but you'll clearly never be able to grasp it. You're too used to debates in the comic book forums, where *everything* is debatable(especially outside sources) -- but that's NOT the case here. V-Jump is completely irrefutable to DB, whether you like it or not.

Simple. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
We can agree it's canon, can we agree it's bullshit? So you agree it's CANON, yet you still don't want to accept it..? LISTEN TO YOURSELF, MAN... srsly

Your failure to accept canon facts doesn't mean a damn thing. Canon is canon -- you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Originally posted by Damborgson
That's great, but it doesn't make sense. In YOUR opinion... Canon sources > you. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
I'm not purposely unwilling to do this. What I refuse to do, is accept something blindly. It's canon in the handbook, it's equal canonicty to the manga, and it doesn't make a lick of sense. In YOUR opinion... Canon sources > you. smile

If you don't like it, I suggest sending a personal grievance to Akira Toriyama and/or Toei Animation. thumb up

Originally posted by Damborgson
You use the word opinion, as if they don't carry weight behind them. They do, and in this case, very much so as it comes with good arguments behind it. At least now though, I understand why you're being so difficult about this. It probably gives you a sense of stability to not have to think about things regardless of whether they make sense or not. Yes, yes... Try to act like *I'm* being the illogical one with my acknowledgement of canon evidence, lol. Doesn't make you look like you're desperately grasping at straws or anything... thumb up

Originally posted by Damborgson
You're more than welcome to leave. I'm interested in talking, but you can turn tail if you'd like. 'Turn tail'..? Has quanchi been giving you advise in how to debate? Get out of here with this idiocy, lol.

Like I said: you're clearly just looking to argue for arguments sake. I'm definitely not interested in that sort of BS. Simple. smile

NotAllThatEvil
Friendly reminder that toriyama said that he introduced Powerlevels to show how inaccurate they were at determining a fighters powerlevel. Krillin very well could have had a powerlevel that maxed out at 75,000 aythe end of namek, but that doesn't actually mean anything.

Also, unlike aliens, earthlings' powerlevel is directly proportional to the technique they are using. Krillin probably only had such a high powerlevel when using his frieza tail cutting kienzan.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007


In YOUR opinion... Canon sources > you. smile

In YOUR opinion... Canon sources > you. smile



Alright, I'm sorry for taking so long. I finished finals, started the meta battlezone and then was so disillusioned with you that I took my time coming back to this.

You admitting that you don't have a lick of common sense doesn't translate to me not understanding the conversation laughing out loud I get it, it's just so surprising to see how limited you are that I need to reconfirm it mentally.

The rest is nonsense of you repeating yourself spouting the same nonsense over and over again.

Where have I desperately done anything lol? Desperation would be arguments without basis, you're arguing that getting kicked in the head multiples Krillen's power by 5-6 times. Oh but the handbook says it's canon, that doesn't make it any less bullshit.

I am now convinced that you're a troll though dude. You keep using words like "ignore" or "twisted" but I'm not doing any of it, and when I ask you to point to where I do it, you ignore it smile So...troll thumb up

I on the other hand have not ignored anything, i have stated why I disagree with it. And I see no reason why have to blindly accept something that doesn't make sense, even if it's canon. There's more evidence against it, than there is for it.

-insert Galan repeating the same nonsense saying "simple smile" and "vegeta vaguely references a power up of some sort" laughing out loud

If you're uninterested stop responding Galan. thumb up Otherwise shut up and keep debating.

I didn't realize Quanchi had the rights on that saying?

Galan007
So you wait nearly two weeks to reply, just so that you can bash me with more of this utterly irrelevant, faux-intellectual drivel(drivel that STILL doesn't come close to 'proving' any sort of 'point', mind you)..? 'Disillusioned' indeed, lol... At this point I can't help but think you're just trolling. confused


Anywho, to FURTHER substantiate my point: we know that Krillin's max PL was just over 10,000 against the Ginyu Force:
https://i.imgur.com/KKrDBin.jpg
*And we KNOW that was his max, because he(and Gohan) actually powered-up before fighting Guldo.

However, shortly afterward(I'm talking no more than an hour), Krillin was easily stalemating 'Ginku'(Ginyu in Goku's body):
https://i.imgur.com/lCApP9G.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vS4H45P.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8tsmWl2.jpg

And guess what? Ginku had a PL of 23,000:
https://i.imgur.com/xlQPa8V.jpg

Furthermore, Krillin was actually HOLDING BACK against Ginku in fear of hurting his friend's body(as was Gohan):
https://i.imgur.com/rk2NhVk.jpg
*What's more, Krillin didn't even power-up before fighting Ginku, yet was still easily keeping pace with him -- implying that his PL would have actually been well OVER 23k, had he actually powered-up. But that's neither here nor there...


Either way, the fact that Krillin's PL MORE THAN DOUBLED in such a short amount of time ALSO tells us that his PL was continuously increasing by gargantuan leaps after the Guru unlock, like I have been saying this entire time. smile

So given all of the EVIDENCE I have posted, you'd have to be an intransigent moron to act like Krillin's PL couldn't have possibly been 75k by the END of the Namek saga, like V-Jump canonically states... But somehow I'm sure that you'll keep ignoring canon evidence and pretending like your opinion supersedes it -- so I don't know why I'm still wasting my time with you..? I guess at this point I'm just intrigued to see just how far you're willing to sink before you just admit that canon > you. smile

SSJGGogeta
Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Galan here. Krillin very easily could have gotten 4 times stronger after guru unlocked him. Similarly to how Gohan got rofl-stomped by Recoome, and shortly after fought on par with Second form Frieza. Sure he got a zenkai, but that would have had to be a helluva zenkai to make him able to do that, lol. He got his potential unlocked and it made him get stronger and stronger as more of his potential got unlocked. Then of course, the rage boost, but still.

Damborgson
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with Galan here. Krillin very easily could have gotten 4 times stronger after guru unlocked him. Similarly to how Gohan got rofl-stomped by Recoome, and shortly after fought on par with Second form Frieza. Sure he got a zenkai, but that would have had to be a helluva zenkai to make him able to do that, lol. He got his potential unlocked and it made him get stronger and stronger as more of his potential got unlocked. Then of course, the rage boost, but still.

We would need proof that it was an overtime amp, with saiyans you never know. Vegeta went from losing to Zarbon, to losing to Reecoome, to matching first form Frieza. They are ridiculous, and by his performance against final form Frieza and commentary from group he was implied to be stronger than anyone there, which shows the ridiculous nature of saiyan Zenkais. That is not so for Krillen.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007
So you wait nearly two weeks to reply, just so that you can bash me with more of this utterly irrelevant, faux-intellectual drivel(drivel that STILL doesn't come close to 'proving' any sort of 'point', mind you)..? 'Disillusioned' indeed, lol... At this point I can't help but think you're just trolling. confused


Anywho, to FURTHER substantiate my point: we know that Krillin's max PL was just over 10,000 against the Ginyu Force:
https://i.imgur.com/KKrDBin.jpg
*And we KNOW that was his max, because he(and Gohan) actually powered-up before fighting Guldo.

However, shortly afterward(I'm talking no more than an hour), Krillin was easily stalemating 'Ginku'(Ginyu in Goku's body):
https://i.imgur.com/lCApP9G.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vS4H45P.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8tsmWl2.jpg

And guess what? Ginku had a PL of 23,000:
https://i.imgur.com/xlQPa8V.jpg

Furthermore, Krillin was actually HOLDING BACK against Ginku in fear of hurting his friend's body(as was Gohan):
https://i.imgur.com/rk2NhVk.jpg
*What's more, Krillin didn't even power-up before fighting Ginku, yet was still easily keeping pace with him -- implying that his PL would have actually been well OVER 23k, had he actually powered-up. But that's neither here nor there...


Either way, the fact that Krillin's PL MORE THAN DOUBLED in such a short amount of time ALSO tells us that his PL was continuously increasing by gargantuan leaps after the Guru unlock, like I have been saying this entire time. smile

So given all of the EVIDENCE I have posted, you'd have to be an intransigent moron to act like Krillin's PL couldn't have possibly been 75k by the END of the Namek saga, like V-Jump canonically states... But somehow I'm sure that you'll keep ignoring canon evidence and pretending like your opinion supersedes it -- so I don't know why I'm still wasting my time with you..? I guess at this point I'm just intrigued to see just how far you're willing to sink before you just admit that canon > you. smile

I'm sorry you seemed to have missed me, (?) but I can reply when I like, no? erm


That's not evidence Galan. The whole point of the body swap was to portray how ineffective they were in each other's bodies. Goku could barely fly, Ginyu could barely power up to 23k, and it stands to be reasoned that Ginyu had the same issues with Goku's body.

And hurting/effecting people outside your weight class who are in a compromised position, was hardly a new concept.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37144/4582480-7876949483-Drago.png
http://oi43.tinypic.com/15fjhow.jpg


and probably even more damning:

http://i1.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/315/dragon-ball-69704.jpg
http://i1.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/316/dragon-ball-69713.jpg
http://i7.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/316/dragon-ball-69714.jpg

So yeah. Krillen affecting Ginyu who didn't even know how to use that body, not all that great.

Now if it were Dodoria...well okay.

The bad news is it also means your scans don't 'prove' (lol) a thing wink

So any other ideas building on that lose momentum.

Okay, I have not ignored, a single post or point you have posted. All have been replied to and given feedback on. I think one or two I've even acknowledged fair points on your part. So stop saying I've ignored things I haven't. I have not ACCEPTED THEM, you whiny *****. That's very different.

And now don't get me wrong, you're making a case at least for the claim, just not one that can be proven, and it's getting sadly very obvious that you can't prove it. All of your points have been met and to some degree either countered or had doubt cast on them.

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
That's not evidence Galan. The whole point of the body swap was to portray how ineffective they were in each other's bodies. Goku could barely fly, Ginyu could barely power up to 23k, and it stands to be reasoned that Ginyu had the same issues with Goku's body. It's crazy/hysterical to me that your e-ego is preventing you from just admitting that you have been proven wrong here. You'd rather stoop so low as to continuously post these ridiculous non-points of yours... It's pathetic, tbh.

Anywho, even though Ginyu wasn't able to access Goku's full power, he was still capable of generating a PL of 23,000. For Krillin to stalemate him without even powering up means his PL MUST have been ~23,000 as well... Because that's how it works in Dragon Ball. Simple. smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
And hurting/effecting people outside your weight class who are in a compromised position, was hardly a new concept.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37144/4582480-7876949483-Drago.png

http://oi43.tinypic.com/15fjhow.jpg -Vegeta was entirely unprepared for Yajirobe's cheap-shot. He was also MASSIVELY fatigued/depleted from all the damage he had endured(and energy he'd expended) beforehand.

-Nappa was entirely unprepared for Piccolo's cheap-shot. All of his attention was focused on Krillin when Piccolo attacked him from behind.


*It is a well-established fact in DB that if one drops their guard or is unprepared, they can be injured/killed by VASTLY inferior attacks... This has been stated/shown NUMEROUS times, ffs. Example: Sorbet's ring-laser vs. SSB Goku:
https://i.imgur.com/5pSuLsH.gif

...So are you going to pretend like this isn't a canon fact as well? laughing out loud

Originally posted by Damborgson
and probably even more damning:

http://i1.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/315/dragon-ball-69704.jpg
http://i1.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/316/dragon-ball-69713.jpg
http://i7.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/316/dragon-ball-69714.jpg laughing out loud

These scanlations are hardly 'damning', bud.

Had you actually bothered to research these scans before wildly snagging them from a hate-fueled Google search, you'd know that Freeza was entirely unharmed by Gohan and Krillin's cheap-shot-blasts there... As Freeza literally stated a page later: they were just minor annoyances to him -- akin to flies(Freeza thought their efforts were cute, tbh.) smile

Originally posted by Damborgson
So yeah. Krillen affecting Ginyu who didn't even know how to use that body, not all that great. At this point I can't help but think that you're either a grossly ill-informed troll, or just a complete idiot... Maybe both?

Ginku reached a PL of 23,000. Krillin matching him WITHOUT EVEN POWERING UP means his PL MUST have been about equal... Because that's how it works in DB. Simple. smile

...And since Krillin's PL more than DOUBLED in under an hour(as mentioned, it was only ~10,000 vs. Guldo), there is absolutely NO reason to doubt the 75k that V-Jump canonically credits him with by the END of the Namek saga. It is overtly clear that Krillin's PL was perpetually increasing by gargantuan sums the entire time -- his fight with Ginku + Vegeta's statement when they first confronted Freeza, proves this unequivocally. You're just being willfully intransigent and are ignoring every shred of canon evidence... But hey, that's what you do best. thumb up




*More trollish non-points from good ol' Damborg coming in 5...4...3...2...*

Mendax
Um yeah, Galan is spot on here. Krillins powerlevel kept rising after Guru unlocked him. First it jumped from 1,700 to 10,000+ > then from 10,000+ to 23,000+ > then from 23,000+ to 75,000+ by the time Namek went kablooey.

It's really not arguable.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007


Is that so lol? Pot-kettle, my friend. thumb up If you're so right, you wouldn't still be here. Yet you come back every time. Strange...

Um, no it doesn't. It means Ginyu can barely use that body. Not to mention, it wasn't just Krillen. Gohan was helping. That's the whole point of the body swap, their bodies weren't working like they're supposed to. Didn't think I'd need to explain that, but I'm always willing.

So? laughing out loud It doesn't matter how weakened, he'd still be substantially more powerful than Yajirobe. Yet, there he is, getting damaged by him. It shows that despite a substantial power difference, one can damage the other.

Excuses, excuses.

I'm not pretending, you're but it's clear that you're an illiterate retard who doesn't know what that word means thumb up props.

Um, it bothered him enough to cover up. By comparison, Frieza took a blast to the back from Vegeta without even flinching. Gohan and Krillen shouldn't have even registered, and I've been reading Dragon Ball Z since I was a kid, I'm well aware what happens...lol.

You can't prove that. Ginyu isn't working well in Goku's body. Neither of them could respond very well:

http://i9.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/287/dragon-ball-1950147.jpg

And I'm wondering where the fire fighter got such an ego from. To think it's from misinterpreting comics on a forum. Tsk. Don't flatter yourself laughing out loud Yes, I'll respond as many times as I like, and we won't agree, but I'm still at the end of the day, within my right to disagree with something that I don't find convincing. You being a **** about it doesn't change your poor level of debating. Scan dump, argument, disagreement, douchey comments, scan dump, douchey comments.

So to recap:

Not a single shred of in manga evidence to prove it. Not one. You've posted a lot, but very little has actually backed up the point that he even increased at all, let alone 75k.

Don't like it? Prove it.

I've accepted plenty of times when I'm wrong, even against my boy Thor. You, are just wrong.

More parroting and fake laughter masking a fragile sense of self in 3....2...1...

Edit: Yeesh, re-reading our replies this is turning kind of nasty.

Inedian
I remember Krillin power rising, but don't remember him having 75K. It doesn't matter, he is far above that anyway. Tien should still be the strongest human by a wide margin.. real shame he became such weakling.

Galan007
Originally posted by Damborgson
Is that so lol? Pot-kettle, my friend. thumb up If you're so right, you wouldn't still be here. Yet you come back every time. Strange...

Um, no it doesn't. It means Ginyu can barely use that body. Not to mention, it wasn't just Krillen. Gohan was helping. That's the whole point of the body swap, their bodies weren't working like they're supposed to. Didn't think I'd need to explain that, but I'm always willing.

So? laughing out loud It doesn't matter how weakened, he'd still be substantially more powerful than Yajirobe. Yet, there he is, getting damaged by him. It shows that despite a substantial power difference, one can damage the other.

Excuses, excuses.

I'm not pretending, you're but it's clear that you're an illiterate retard who doesn't know what that word means thumb up props.

Um, it bothered him enough to cover up. By comparison, Frieza took a blast to the back from Vegeta without even flinching. Gohan and Krillen shouldn't have even registered, and I've been reading Dragon Ball Z since I was a kid, I'm well aware what happens...lol.

You can't prove that. Ginyu isn't working well in Goku's body. Neither of them could respond very well:

http://i9.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/287/dragon-ball-1950147.jpg

And I'm wondering where the fire fighter got such an ego from. To think it's from misinterpreting comics on a forum. Tsk. Don't flatter yourself laughing out loud Yes, I'll respond as many times as I like, and we won't agree, but I'm still at the end of the day, within my right to disagree with something that I don't find convincing. You being a **** about it doesn't change your poor level of debating. Scan dump, argument, disagreement, douchey comments, scan dump, douchey comments.

So to recap:

Not a single shred of in manga evidence to prove it. Not one. You've posted a lot, but very little has actually backed up the point that he even increased at all, let alone 75k.

Don't like it? Prove it.

I've accepted plenty of times when I'm wrong, even against my boy Thor. You, are just wrong.

More parroting and fake laughter masking a fragile sense of self in 3....2...1...

Edit: Yeesh, re-reading our replies this is turning kind of nasty. Cool, so you are a complete moron, who entirely ignores every single shred of canon evidence I've posted. Glad this thread has established that much, at least... thumb up

That said, I think we're done here. I'm content with the fact that several others have agreed with the facts I have presented. You seem content with pretending like your trollish opinions supersede canon evidence, and that's fine... Idiocy is your gimmick, evidently. As mentioned, this thread sure has been 'enlightening', if nothing else. laughing out loud

Anywho, you can go ahead and have the last word(you seem to desperately crave it, after all.) I'm done wasting my time with your nonsense. thumb up


Now if anyone else would like to discuss the earthlings, however, I welcome it. smile

DeadpoolXXX
laughing out loud Damborgson is embarrassing himself left and right.


i do have a question though- since we know krillin is #1 earthling fighter, who is #2? roshi or Tien?

Inedian
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
laughing out loud Damborgson is embarrassing himself left and right.


i do have a question though- since we know krillin is #1 earthling fighter, who is #2? roshi or Tien?

Probably Roshi, since they made a joke out of Tien and I think in episode 89 Roshi pretty much defeated Tien.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Galan007
Cool, so you are a complete moron, who entirely ignores every single shred of canon evidence I've posted. Glad this thread has established that much, at least... thumb up

That said, I think we're done here. I'm content with the fact that several others have agreed with the facts I have presented. You seem content with pretending like your trollish opinions supersede canon evidence, and that's fine... Idiocy is your gimmick, evidently. As mentioned, this thread sure has been 'enlightening', if nothing else. laughing out loud

Anywho, you can go ahead and have the last word(you seem to desperately crave it, after all.) I'm done wasting my time with your nonsense. thumb up


Now if anyone else would like to discuss the earthlings, however, I welcome it. smile

And you've missed the point entirely. I'm sorry I don't agree with you, but you seemed to think that because you scan dump, that translates to evidence. It seems to work since you have a nobody or two agreeing. But Galan, you should know:

https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/65e/2a/steverogers.jpg

The ones who agreed with me are higher quality anyway wink

Don't lie to the people, you'll welcome any 'opinion' as long as its in line with yours.

Ill take the last word and wear it like a badge of honor. thumb up the hell ? You think bashing for two weeks means you took the high road or something?

Galan007
Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
laughing out loud Damborgson is embarrassing himself left and right.


i do have a question though- since we know krillin is #1 earthling fighter, who is #2? roshi or Tien? Yeah, Roshi should be >. As Inedian mentioned, Tien is pretty much a joke character these days. sad

Mendax
Originally posted by Damborgson
It seems to work since you have a nobody or two agreeing. WOW. So you're also an amazingly arrogant douchebag I see. erm

News flash my friend- if you could actually prove a point, I might be agreeing with you instead. You haven't proven anything though. Galan has. Sorry.

EVen though I'm just a "nobody" according to you, I still know how to read and interpret info provided on a battleboard. Stop acting like a whiny *****.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm also with Galan here.

Kento
While, Krillin having a power of 75k is irrelevant if he has it or not since it would be useless level of power at that moment, the outside sources should be taken with a little bit of skepticism, because the actual manga has Radditz with a power level of 1200, and Daizenshu have him at 1500.

So I get what Damborgson is getting at, just because it's said in V-Jump doesn't mean it makes sense .

It also doesn't mean that after Freeza fight that Krillin stayed ahead of Tien by the time Tien was revived.

Galan007
Originally posted by Kento
While, Krillin having a power of 75k is irrelevant if he has it or not since it would be useless level of power at that moment, the outside sources should be taken with a little bit of skepticism, because the actual manga has Radditz with a power level of 1200, and Daizenshu have him at 1500. Tbf, it was stated that the PLs of the Saibamen(and Raditz) were "over" 1,200:
https://i.imgur.com/wqlPtCr.jpg
So the 1,500 credited to Raditz in the Daizenshuu(and other guides) certainly isn't out of the question, imo... But that's neither here nor there.

Anyway, if it wasn't for everything else, I might understand being somewhat skeptical of V-Jump's PL listing as well. However, Krillin's PL was undoubtedly increasing by leaps and bounds after Guru's unlock. As mentioned, the unlock itself took Krillin from <2,000 to ~10,000. Then his PL more than doubled in the very short amount of time between his fight with Guldo(where it was ~10,000), and his fight with Ginku(where it was logically upwards of 23,000). And later on in the story, Vegeta outright states that Krillin's PL continued increasing the whole time. Given that, along with the fact that V-Jump IS a canon source, I see no legitimate reason to doubt his PL being 75k by the END of the saga. Certainly nothing canonical disproves the notion... That's all I'm saying. /shrug

Kento
I'm not sayin 75k is completely wrong, just that I get where he's coming from, and in the end its a number that wouldn't even matter by that time anyway. When Freeza's first form, and Vegeta are in the 500ks

Damborgson
My stance from the beginning was it might be canon, but its ridiculous.

Too vague to justify and all that /shrug

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