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Orion, like him or not, is a pretty vicious (and powerful) fighter.
How would he do against the classic WS Authority team (jenny Sparks not Quantum) in a no prep no BFR fight, set in say, Los Angeles?

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b3/79/2f/b3792f169aa4e53ee70fafabbb8e4815--the-authority-comic-books.jpg

Hell no !

The Doctor solos him
This site criminally underrate Wildstorm characters

In a forum fight:

-Midnighter, Swift, and Jenny Sparks are cannon fodder

-Engineer and Hawksmoor may be difficult to put down, but won't be serious threats to Orion

-Apollo is good for a temporary distraction

So the whole fight turns on whether or not the Doctor can deal with Orion. Simply dimension shunting him won't do it, cause boomtubes, but that could buy him the time to get more creative.

^^^would the shunting count as BFR?

Originally posted by MrMind
The Doctor solos him
This site criminally underrate Wildstorm characters
Well this site's told me i criminally underestimate Orion.

Huh. This site is an instigator!

Originally posted by riv6672
^^^would the shunting count as BFR?
Oh, I missed that stipulation.

Same analysis though. If the Doctor gets a shot off, he can win. If Orion takes him out first, Authority goes down.

I love the Authority, but if Orion was in bloodlust mode, he'd likely HACK the carrier via Mother Box AND destroy the Authority with one huge Astro Force attack. Same energy that contained and matched universal destroying energies.

No, this is a mismatch. The Doctor solos. And the rest combined could likely put him down. Separating them out to say that Orion is above each is misleading, because Angie, Jack, and Apollo could all do damage.

He's also not hacking the Carrier, if it's even in the fight, while in the middle of a heated battle. That's dumb. But if the Carrier is around, it's more of a mismatch, bc Midnighter wouldn't engage him directly and would pull a move like he did when he fought Apollo or the evil Doctor. MNer might just crash the Carrier into Orion, tell the Doctor to teleport out just before, and let Orion deal with the force of a big bang unleashed.

It's also not first strike with the Doctor. He's reformed after being exploded on at least two occasions I can think of. Lack of knowledge about the Authority hadn't been an issue here in recent years, but it seems to have come into this thread. Majestic is a reasonable analogue, yeah? The Doctor froze him indefinitely while sipping on a soda and exchanging quips with Jack. This fight ends quick.

Originally posted by Digi
No, this is a mismatch. The Doctor solos. And the rest combined could likely put him down. Separating them out to say that Orion is above each is misleading, because Angie, Jack, and Apollo could all do damage.

He's also not hacking the Carrier, if it's even in the fight, while in the middle of a heated battle. That's dumb. But if the Carrier is around, it's more of a mismatch, bc Midnighter wouldn't engage him directly and would pull a move like he did when he fought Apollo or the evil Doctor. MNer might just crash the Carrier into Orion, tell the Doctor to teleport out just before, and let Orion deal with the force of a big bang unleashed.

It's also not first strike with the Doctor. He's reformed after being exploded on at least two occasions I can think of. Lack of knowledge about the Authority hadn't been an issue here in recent years, but it seems to have come into this thread. Majestic is a reasonable analogue, yeah? The Doctor froze him indefinitely while sipping on a soda and exchanging quips with Jack. This fight ends quick.



damn straight!!!

One of my favorite feats is that time he fought some monster on the moon, and Batman had to tell him to knock it off because he was shaking the Earth apart from the aftershocks.

All out, at his best, and without any prep from Authority, he has all the tools.. His "boom tube" negates the doors, and should help with a lot of Doctors effects, his overall speed is generally able to keep up with Lightray (Speeds around the sun at 10x lightspeed and avoids Black Racer..) his stats are top notch, the Astro Force offers good offense (In Death of the New Gods, he did an alpha strike on Kalibak and Mantis, where Superman happened to be in the way. Took them all out.) and defense (Blocks a universe buster.)


If you wanted to give Orion prep (Or even both teams), then he built a goddarmed universe buster called the Genesis Box, in Rock of Ages. Wiped out creation to erase Darkseid's "taint" from it, whatever that means.

Originally posted by Digi
No, this is a mismatch. The Doctor solos. And the rest combined could likely put him down. Separating them out to say that Orion is above each is misleading, because Angie, Jack, and Apollo could all do damage.

He's also not hacking the Carrier, if it's even in the fight, while in the middle of a heated battle. That's dumb. But if the Carrier is around, it's more of a mismatch, bc Midnighter wouldn't engage him directly and would pull a move like he did when he fought Apollo or the evil Doctor. MNer might just crash the Carrier into Orion, tell the Doctor to teleport out just before, and let Orion deal with the force of a big bang unleashed.

It's also not first strike with the Doctor. He's reformed after being exploded on at least two occasions I can think of. Lack of knowledge about the Authority hadn't been an issue here in recent years, but it seems to have come into this thread. Majestic is a reasonable analogue, yeah? The Doctor froze him indefinitely while sipping on a soda and exchanging quips with Jack. This fight ends quick.

With prep, sure.

In a random encounter, I always had Majestic as soloing them, and Orion is easily on his tier.

Originally posted by cdtm
With prep, sure.

In a random encounter, I always had Majestic as soloing them, and Orion is easily on his tier.

The Doctor can fight in the center of the sun unphased and has reformed his brain after it got punched out of his skull and wasn't in one piece (and again when he was exploded and basically inside-out before reforming). How is Orion beating him before he thinks "Stop" and immobilizes him? Orion's fast, but this isn't Flash. Let's be real. Attacks are being made on both sides.

Matter manip rules don't work the same in WS either. There's no writer fiat keeping them from using it offensively. Orion ends this fight as a literal cupcake if the Doctor wants.

I wouldn't be surprised if Orion is able to hack the Carrier. The Mother Box has been crazy haxx lately. And the combined might of the Authrity can take down orion? Nah, doubtful.

Orion easily tooled Hal Jordan, who was owning Parallax and Sinestro with ease. Orion OWNED that Hal.

Originally posted by Zack M
I wouldn't be surprised if Orion is able to hack the Carrier. The Mother Box has been crazy haxx lately. And the combined might of the Authrity can take down orion? Nah, doubtful.

Is this during the fight against a multi-universe-saving team? I really want to know what fight you're envisioning if you think this hacking - which is far from assured (The Carrier is sentient, from the future, and has multiversal capability) - but how the hacking is going on concurrent to the fight. It defies logic, real world OR comic book.

Also, read the OP. BFR is out, which I assume removes boom tubes, doors, Carrier, etc.

You also explained the Mother Box" Multiversal, sentient, and probably more versatile. I just have more faith in NG tech than any other tech in comics. There is really nothing it can't do.

But, like you said, BFR is out of the equation.

Orion still has a MB, and that can potentially be the winner for him.

If you think Orion will win, not much else I'd say will convince you probably. But what I'll say is, if you think Orion is in the high herald tier, he's fodder to the Doctor. Period. Among the many praises I sing for Authority, they had the worst ever "guy too powerful for the team" problem (especially before Quantum, but then they just sorta had the same problem with two of them), and the narrative gymnastics they did to keep the Doctor out of fights was hilariously obvious at times. Then when he got serious, the number of times he no-sold or didn't even have to try to defeat individuals or even teams of beings in this power neighborhood should make this an open and shut thread. But there's this weird recency bias that I think affects anyone who hasn't been active in years. So we're having this discussion.

I think it's lowballing to say he rolls the rest of the team, but I'd be cool with giving Orion the win over everyone but the Doctor. But once you include him, this really isn't a contest.

Originally posted by Digi
I think it's lowballing to say he rolls the rest of the team, but I'd probably be cool with giving Orion the win over everyone but the Doctor. But once you include him, this really isn't a contest. I agree with all of this, with the caveat that there's room between rolling a team and beating them, and I think Orion likely takes the rest of Authority sans Doctor. Some members would be hard to put down, but it would mostly be a one-way fight.

I totally forgot about Doctor reforming though. /srug.

Originally posted by Digi
The Doctor can fight in the center of the sun unphased and has reformed his brain after it got punched out of his skull and wasn't in one piece (and again when he was exploded and basically inside-out before reforming). How is Orion beating him before he thinks "Stop" and immobilizes him? Orion's fast, but this isn't Flash. Let's be real. Attacks are being made on both sides.

Matter manip rules don't work the same in WS either. There's no writer fiat keeping them from using it offensively. Orion ends this fight as a literal cupcake if the Doctor wants.

Orion's no stranger to offensive matter manip.

In Simonson's run, a member of the Deep Six transmutated life across an entire sea into "Joker fish". He tried outright killing Orion with his power, and the best he could do is take his skin off and cause some pain (Which only made him mad, and triggered the mother of all beat downs.

And if we're assuming different rules, I'd argue someone who can cure blindness by ripping out someones eyes and popping them into his own head probably plays off a different ruleset then most.

Originally posted by Digi
If you think Orion will win, not much else I'd say will convince you probably. But what I'll say is, if you think Orion is in the high herald tier, he's fodder to the Doctor. Period. Among the many praises I sing for Authority, they had the worst ever "guy too powerful for the team" problem (especially before Quantum, but then they just sorta had the same problem with two of them), and the narrative gymnastics they did to keep the Doctor out of fights was hilariously obvious at times. Then when he got serious, the number of times he no-sold or didn't even have to try to defeat individuals or even teams of beings in this power neighborhood should make this an open and shut thread. But there's this weird recency bias that I think affects anyone who hasn't been active in years. So we're having this discussion.

I think it's lowballing to say he rolls the rest of the team, but I'd be cool with giving Orion the win over everyone but the Doctor. But once you include him, this really isn't a contest.

I think the Doctor is the only real threat. How is the Doctor's resistance against mental attacks? Orion's MB has subdued beings in the past.

Originally posted by Smurph
I agree with all of this, with the caveat that there's room between rolling a team and beating them, and I think Orion likely takes the rest of Authority sans Doctor. Some members would be hard to put down, but it would mostly be a one-way fight.

I totally forgot about Doctor reforming though. /srug.

So Doctor's unbeatable?

He's never been taken down?

Originally posted by cdtm
Orion's no stranger to offensive matter manip.

In Simonson's run, a member of the Deep Six transmutated life across an entire sea into "Joker fish". He tried outright killing Orion with his power, and the best he could do is take his skin off and cause some pain (Which only made him mad, and triggered the mother of all beat downs.

And if we're assuming different rules, I'd argue someone who can cure blindness by ripping out someones eyes and popping them into his own head probably plays off a different ruleset then most.

I forgot about that feat. Was it the MB that protected Orion?

Originally posted by Smurph
I agree with all of this, with the caveat that there's room between rolling a team and beating them, and I think Orion likely takes the rest of Authority sans Doctor. Some members would be hard to put down, but it would mostly be a one-way fight.

I totally forgot about Doctor reforming though. /srug.

Yup, I can agree with that assessment.

And they're easy feats to forget. But really, of all the plot device-y ways the Doctor has been taken out, I can't recall any that are actual blitzes. But yeah, when Jenny pulled the suicide bomber thing on Habib was one, and the evil Doctor reformed his brain. It feels cheap to me, even as a huge Doctor fan, but the feats are there.

Given the team format here, and the fact that Orion isn't technically a speedster, I think it would be a stretch to call "blitz" on this fight anyway. He fight get a first strike, but it wouldn't be a OHK to someone with the Doctor's powers.

Originally posted by Zack M
I forgot about that feat. Was it the MB that protected Orion?

At the time, I believe he was running without any box.

He did get a "father box" at some point, given by an enemy (So sketchy..)

Some feats from current orion:

- Punked Hal Jordan twice. Same Hal Jordan who easily tooled Zero Hour Parallax and Sinestrollax.
- Resisted Mogo's gravity attack. Same attack which owned a slew of Black Lanterns.
- Destroyed a solar system as a side effect with his fight with Golem.
- Helped Superman resist Hector Hammond's (According to Lobdell, Hector is Onslaught level) mental attacks with his Mother Box.
- Went toe to toe with DCnU Superman. Same Superman who benched the entire weight of the planet for five consecutive days.

Originally posted by cdtm
At the time, I believe he was running without any box.

He did get a "father box" at some point, given by an enemy (So sketchy..)

yeah, I forgot about the Father Box.

Originally posted by Zack M
I think the Doctor is the only real threat. How is the Doctor's resistance against mental attacks? Orion's MB has subdued beings in the past.

He has flooded someone with all the memories of the entire human race. At once. He also effortlessly mind-nuked a telepath who had control over something like 40% of the world's minds.

Do you actually know anything about the Doctor, or are you just trying to shoehorn a win for your boy? I'm not an Orion expert, but at least I'm going in with a healthy understanding of powers.

Originally posted by cdtm
So Doctor's unbeatable?

He's never been taken down?

Various plot devices mostly. Jeroen - the Doctor in OP's pic - was a notorious drug user. So like, they'd make him high off his ass and passed out for entire stories. Once he was friends with the villain - part of his church - before realizing he was an idiot and destroying the guy in seconds (who had, by that point, conquered a good portion of the planet and was wrecking the rest of the team). They'll also do things like set off cataclysms across the planet that he needs to deal with instead of fighting the enemy team, since he could end team fights in seconds. Once Jenny Q got taken over telepathically, and was used to stalemate him (they were opening multiversal doors and doing things like creating anti-matter to attack one another). The Evil Doctor only lost because he developed a conscience. He was going to wipe out the entire Earth's hero population otherwise. The Authority evacuated the entire planet (no joke) before fighting him because they didn't think they could contain the damage.

So it varies. He's lost, but there's usually context to it. But like, he made a new body for Winter, who is a low herald energy absorber/manipulator. He can create beings that should be fighting the likes of Orion. In a serious fight, Orion's not a threat to him.

Impressive. Read up on the feats I posted above.

Originally posted by Zack M
Impressive. Read up on the feats I posted above.

I mean, again, you're talking about a Superman-class hero with someone impressive output and soak abilities. No disrespect, it's all good stuff. But it's all for naught when he decides to blink, and before his eyelids open, the Doctor's magically frozen him in place. The Doctor can turn his head into a symphony and his genitals into cupcakes (both references to actual feats), flood him with a planet's worth of memories, phase in and out of existence at will, swallow and belch suns like they're jalepenos, tear him apart at a subatomic level with raw manipulative feats or anti-matter, pull in other versions of himself or others from around the multiverse if the threat is big enough, and - if need be - probably match him in raw power if needed. Things like strength and blast radii are irrelevant. It's bringing a baseball bat to a philosophy lecture.

If OP hadn't disallowed BFR, we could also include instantaneous time travel. The Doctor could murder Orion as a baby (and has done just that to someone before), or whatever passes for a baby on New Genesis.

I'll respond to the "mind nuke" comments:

1. Also in Simonson's Orion run (Which is must read, imo ), he faced a cosmic type primal being that, by looking on it, drives you insane.

He didn't.. And when he told Scott Free about it, he dressed up the fact he was there at all as proof of his failure with the Anti Life Equation, to which Scott replies "Orion, you looked it in the eye, and didn't lose your mind! Only you could dress this up as a failure!"

2. John Ostrander established that New Gods are immune to Martian level telepathy, who as a race are easily among the best of the best on tp feats (Many of them from J'onn, naturally).

Of course, it's possible Doctor is >>>>> Xavier level, but that embodiement of chaos that drives a man insane tanking leads me to believe the old Maxima beatdown should safely be dead and buried (She's powerful, but not quite that powerful.. Milton Fine Brainiac otoh might be..), and that Orion can take whatever he's dished out mentally..

Originally posted by Digi
He has flooded someone with all the memories of the entire human race. At once. He also effortlessly mind-nuked a telepath who had control over something like 40% of the world's minds.

Do you actually know anything about the Doctor, or are you just trying to shoehorn a win for your boy? I'm not an Orion expert, but at least I'm going in with a healthy understanding of powers.



Various plot devices mostly. Jeroen - the Doctor in OP's pic - was a notorious drug user. So like, they'd make him high off his ass and passed out for entire stories. Once he was friends with the villain - part of his church - before realizing he was an idiot and destroying the guy in seconds (who had, by that point, conquered a good portion of the planet and was wrecking the rest of the team). They'll also do things like set off cataclysms across the planet that he needs to deal with instead of fighting the enemy team, since he could end team fights in seconds. Once Jenny Q got taken over telepathically, and was used to stalemate him (they were opening multiversal doors and doing things like creating anti-matter to attack one another). The Evil Doctor only lost because he developed a conscience. He was going to wipe out the entire Earth's hero population otherwise. The Authority evacuated the entire planet (no joke) before fighting him because they didn't think they could contain the damage.

So it varies. He's lost, but there's usually context to it. But like, he made a new body for Winter, who is a low herald energy absorber/manipulator. He can create beings that should be fighting the likes of Orion. In a serious fight, Orion's not a threat to him.


Sounds like it would take "True Darksed" to beat him then.

Is there a "true Orion"? Hth is Orion ever supposed to kill his father after he's been upgraded to abstract level..?

It was revealed in Multiversity that each New God has a true form. The Orion you see is just a fraction of what the true Orion is.

Also, in Godhead (By Venditti), The New Gods are the most powerful gods in the Multiverse.

Originally posted by cdtm
Sounds like it would take "True Darksed" to beat him then.

Is there a "true Orion"? Hth is Orion ever supposed to kill his father after he's been upgraded to abstract level..?

Possibly. We call Doctor Trans. tier, but some of his feats defy easy description. He's never needed the "Over 9000" style raw power feats (which is really all he lacks relative to others at that level), because anything he thinks of, reality shapes around him to make it happen. He's one of the more crazily versatile non-abstracts in all of comics.

Sorcerer Supreme Strange with prep could counter Doctor's stuff for the most part, and Strange might actually have better raw power feats. It wouldn't take a full abstract to beat him. But he's like all the best parts of Strange turned to 11, and without the reliance on artifacts and spells.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'll respond to the "mind nuke" comments:

1. Also in Simonson's Orion run (Which is must read, imo ), he faced a cosmic type primal being that, by looking on it, drives you insane.

He didn't.. And when he told Scott Free about it, he dressed up the fact he was there at all as proof of his failure with the Anti Life Equation, to which Scott replies "Orion, you looked it in the eye, and didn't lose your mind! Only you could dress this up as a failure!"

2. John Ostrander established that New Gods are immune to Martian level telepathy, who as a race are easily among the best of the best on tp feats (Many of them from J'onn, naturally).

Of course, it's possible Doctor is >>>>> Xavier level, but that embodiement of chaos that drives a man insane tanking leads me to believe the old Maxima beatdown should safely be dead and buried (She's powerful, but not quite that powerful.. Milton Fine Brainiac otoh might be..), and that Orion can take whatever he's dished out mentally..

The mind feats were in response to Zach's question about his psi abilities. I don't think the fight would come to that. I think the Doctor would freeze him in place and Jack would make his Los Angeles battle suit rip Orion's d*ck off.

But with respect to Doctor v. Chuck, it's not that he has better tp feats (he's got a handful, but not the decades of feats Xavier has), but his power levels don't always seem bounded by specific limits. It wasn't that he always had that much telepathic skill. He just thought "Hm, let me teach this guy a lesson by giving him the pain of an entire species" and it just happened. At times the writers made his power to be grounded in reality (i.e. matter manipulation, time manipulation), not just hand-wavy "magic" or the more nebulous reality manipulation. But a lot of his showings defy those descriptions, so calling him a reality manipulator - a la Jaspers but not on quite as big a scale - might not be wrong. But Orion could probably resist a telepathic assault, if I were to guess.

The Authority would have to take apart/destroy the Mother Box, because Orion would just heal from nearly every attack the Authority brings to the table.

Orion managed to survive (with Kyle's help) Golem's Omega beams.

Same beams that could kill skyfather level Highfather.

I'd take the team for a majority, but wouldn't be surprised if he does this in a comic.

No

Not a chance.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I'd take the team for a majority, but wouldn't be surprised if he does this in a comic.

Yeah, the Authrority had a tough time putting LOBO down (in a comic). Orion is more powerful/formidable than Lobo, IMO.

Originally posted by cdtm
So Doctor's unbeatable?

He's never been taken down?
Yeah, this is my take away; the Doctor's failed to solo much less significant threats than Orion.
I get the 'forum rules, fight to best ability' stuff, but there's also 'fight in character', and in character, the Doctor didnt fight as projected here on anything like average.

Having said that, he's still a huge threat obviously.

Originally posted by Zack M
Yeah, the Authrority had a tough time putting LOBO down (in a comic). Orion is more powerful/formidable than Lobo, IMO.

Which is one of the aforementioned times where the Doctor was wrecked on drugs to keep him out of the plot, iirc. Context matters, it turns out.

Those Lobo crossovers were basically gore-porn fan fiction, too. Not exactly the best source, imo.

Originally posted by riv6672
Yeah, this is my take away; the Doctor's failed to solo much less significant threats than Orion.
I get the 'forum rules, fight to best ability' stuff, but there's also 'fight in character', and in character, the Doctor didnt fight as projected here on anything like average.

Having said that, he's still a huge threat obviously.

Examples of these "much less significant" threats he's failed to solo? Any time he's given a normal shot at a fight, he usually destroys the big bads.

Digi, always The Doctor's fanboy.

The Doctor takes him out.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The Doctor takes him out.

http://replygif.net/i/288.gif

http://replygif.net/i/363.gif

Originally posted by Digi
Examples of these "much less significant" threats he's failed to solo? Any time he's given a normal shot at a fight, he usually destroys the big bads.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Authority_(Wildstorm_Universe)

But really, if you and others disagree and post 'Doctor solos' thats fine.
It being my thread though, i'm just chucking those posts in the Shit pile, as they arent of interest to me.

Originally posted by riv6672
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Authority_(Wildstorm_Universe)

But really, if you and others disagree and post 'Doctor solos' thats fine.
It being my thread though, i'm just chucking those posts in the Shit pile, as they arent of interest to me.

Some are posting that. I'm quite sure I'm not, though. On balance, a link to their wiki is far lazier than the examples I've been giving. My question wasn't sarcasm; I have a really good memory for Authority showings, and am struggling to remember times where Doctor straight up failed to take someone out who was roughly Orion's level, or at least any that didn't involve massive contextual caveats. But that doesn't mean they don't exist, so I was asking for examples. If a Wiki link with plots but few feats is your response, though, I think we're probably near the end of that discussion.

/srug

From my recall Jeroen only ever struggled against people explicitly prepped against him. The fight vs the Evil Doctor is proof of his powers being vastly superior than those of the rest of the team. I don't understand what's the point of undermining the fact he's obviously more powerful than Orion has shown to be (as his "true form" is mostly theoretical as far as i recall).

Is Jeroen considered so much of a goofball than Orion would caught him off guard and beat him at some point? That idea rolls over the fact the rest o the Authority is there to pick off the slack and that permanently putting down Jeroen is not as simple as it sounds. If anything I can't see how that argument would achieve more than giving an Orion a tiny minority win 1/10.

Originally posted by Bentley
From my recall Jeroen only ever struggled against people explicitly prepped against him. The fight vs the Evil Doctor is proof of his powers being vastly superior than those of the rest of the team. I don't understand what's the point of undermining the fact he's obviously more powerful than Orion has shown to be (as his "true form" is mostly theoretical as far as i recall).

Is Jeroen considered so much of a goofball than Orion would caught him off guard and beat him at some point? That idea rolls over the fact the rest o the Authority is there to pick off the slack and that permanently putting down Jeroen is not as simple as it sounds. If anything I can't see how that argument would achieve more than giving an Orion a tiny minority win 1/10.

Lol. Yeah, I mean, if everyone's in character, there's a non-trivial chance Jeroen shows up with vomit on his shirt and is only half-aware of where he is. His drug use always got too much attention - he was sober after the first few arcs, with only one late exception I can think of. But if we grant CIS of that nature, sure, I'd be good with this assessment.

Originally posted by riv6672
But really, if you and others disagree and post 'Doctor solos' thats fine.
It being my thread though, i'm just chucking those posts in the Shit pile, as they arent of interest to me.

If you're out to troll without reading a comic, you can do that anywhere, not just in your own threads.

Originally posted by Smurph


If you're out to troll without reading a comic, you can do that anywhere, not just in your own threads.

I dont think its so much as trolling as riv just legit doesnt read up on most characters and he seems genuinely upset when his threads get prematurely shut down...like Digimark just did.

The WS/DC Crossover arc was a good portrayal of the Doctor (and yes, I realize it wasn't technically canon for the DC side). There's the entire Authority and others, along with the entire Justice League (created by a high-level reality warper, and presumably at or near their actual power levels), and they're running around fighting and such. Meanwhile, the Doctor is in the warper's pocket dimension trying to see if he can save the whole universe by talking the kid down or - failing that - seeing if he's able to match the kid in power to take him out. If he wasn't able to do either, that was game over for the entire lot. It was a believable, thoughtful way of removing him from conflicts that he had no business in, while Apollo, Superman and the rest did their hero thing to keep things floating while the Doctor solved the higher-level problem. Ellis did a nice job with Doctor's initial characterization, but even he wasn't able to escape the power issue, which is why the times where he is used best are those when he's involved in more esoteric struggles.

For another lol-worthy example, there's the moment in Cpt. Atom's arc where the Doctor asks Jack if he should go in to end the fight between Apollo and Cpt. Atom, with the same urgency that he'd ask if they needed eggs from the store. It's the same arc where he freezes Majestic effortlessly. Jack's response is that he wants Apollo and MNer to have their fun, so no, don't go. it was one of Apollo's better showings to be shown as equal to Atom, but it also served to show how much of a different level the Doctor was on. Or after that arc when Doctor detects that the whole universe was recently recreated, and Jackson asks him who has that kind of power. His response: "Me. But I spoke with my predecessor. He wasn't involved at the time."

High-level lip service without feats is one thing. But he has them. Bolstering Orion's rep is fine, he's a powerful character. But any opinion that doesn't end with Doctor beating him is woefully lopsided in interpretation.

lol

digi laying out the thread and anyone in his way.

lol

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I dont think its so much as trolling as riv just legit doesnt read up on most characters and he seems genuinely upset when his threads get prematurely shut down...like Digimark just did.

I love a good chance to drop some Authority knowledge. And I don't necessarily think of it as "shutting down" threads. Aside from Zach and obvious bait threads, I think most are just genuinely curious, so I try to stay informational instead of combative. But since there's been numerous times where threads are made without full knowledge of the Authority, mismatches are frequent. This is actually much closer to a true match than many threads involving them, but it's still not in doubt.

Originally posted by Bentley
Digi, always The Doctor's fanboy.

https://i.imgur.com/YvZqGPd.gif

Doesn't make me wrong, though.

It's funny, I can ignore Spider-Man threads and so many others, not caring who's lowballing or any of that nonsense. Then an Authority thread pops up, and some vestige of college-age me resurfaces. It's like the only non-tourney debating I do on this site anymore.

The Authority is goddamn efficient, especially by super hero standards. They've killed their version of God and come back from some CRAZY circumstances. I could definitely see Orion soloing them though because he can basically rape their big guns. The Doctor is their only hope, he wins or losses the fight. Basically, if they know he's coming and what type of threat he is, they'll win. Just far too much team work and efficiency with the Doctor being able to prepare his mental state to fight such a foe.

On a random battle field? Orion is more durable than anything the Doctor has come across, even more so than Majestic. His power is potentially Universal in scale but he's still a drug addict who constantly finds ways to screw up and even he could have trouble warping Orion. Let's not forget, for all the crazy shit the Doctor has done, and he's done plenty, Orion is still a New God. Some interpretations have the Doctor being able to turn the Sun into an fruit basket but some comics would make you believe that Orion would be able to beat him into a coma with that same fruit basket. Logically the Doctor is far more powerful though.

As for the rest of the team? If they're not ready for him, he would run house through them and could basically one-shot the most of the team depending on how powerful the Astro-Force is that day. He's Seth on steroids. The next comic would be the Authority thoroughly decimating him because of all his flaws because that's the usual theme.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Authority is goddamn efficient, especially by super hero standards. They've killed their version of God and come back from some CRAZY circumstances. I could definitely see Orion soloing them though because he can basically rape their big guns. The Doctor is their only hope, he wins or losses the fight. Basically, if they know he's coming and what type of threat he is, they'll win. Just far too much team work and efficiency with the Doctor being able to prepare his mental state to fight such a foe.

On a random battle field? Orion is more durable than anything the Doctor has come across, even more so than Majestic. His power is potentially Universal in scale but he's still a drug addict who constantly finds ways to screw up and even he could have trouble warping Orion. Let's not forget, for all the crazy shit the Doctor has done, and he's done plenty, Orion is still a New God. Some interpretations have the Doctor being able to turn the Sun into an fruit basket but some comics would make you believe that Orion would be able to beat him into a coma with that same fruit basket. Logically the Doctor is far more powerful though.

As for the rest of the team? He would run house through them and could basically one-shot the most of the team depending on how powerful the Astro-Force is that day. He's Seth on steroids.

Not a bad assessment, but I'd ask what "prepare his mental state" means. He's not Strange, needing time for anything. He just thinks and it happens, and he knows how to fight. That sounds to me like a fancy way of trying to get a foot in the door for a character who's overmatched. We assume reasonable use of powers, yeah? So his mental state is just fine.

Orion more durable than Majestic...agreed. But they're in the same league, yeah? The point is that the Doctor wasn't even trying, and wouldn't have had to against Cpt. Atom either. The Doctor was the only one within sniffing distance of the baddy in the arc with the whole Justice League. Giving Orion a slight durability edge over Majestic is throwing paper towels into a swimming pool to stop a child from drowning.

I've addressed the drug addiction. He was out for a couple fights, and sober for the rest. it's overblown. Most times he's removed through a plot device not tied to his character traits. I'd also request examples of "screwing up" in actual fights where he had his wits about him. You clearly know the team and what it's done, so that kind of nebulous statement is again begging for specifics. But unless we assume he actually shows up stoned to the fight - which I think we can all agree would be a laughable concession that he normally wins against Orion - then what's the argument for Orion here?

Originally posted by Digi
lol



I love a good chance to drop some Authority knowledge. And I don't necessarily think of it as "shutting down" threads. Aside from Zach and obvious bait threads, I think most are just genuinely curious, so I try to stay informational instead of combative. But since there's been numerous times where threads are made without full knowledge of the Authority, mismatches are frequent. This is actually much closer to a true match than many threads involving them, but it's still not in doubt.

Imo the Authority doesnt need Doctor. The setting is enough an amp for Jack and the team would do fine. Theyd lose ultumately but itd be a way better fight without the need to highball Orion

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Imo the Authority doesnt need Doctor. The setting is enough an amp for Jack and the team would do fine. Theyd lose ultumately but itd be a way better fight without the need to highball Orion

Agreed, both about them doing better than expected, and about Orion ultimately beating them.

Jack in cities is really interesting, and placing his upper limit is tricky. In debates, it's often shrugged away because he's against characters with city-busting blasts. Which is a good argument. But it's not just sitting there. If you created a character from scratch that was the literal size of a city, made of metal and concrete, and gave it punching power to match, phasing, and the ability to heal, gravity manipulation, etc. I think many would see it as >>> than what they see as Jack's potential.

The threads with him on Coruscant and Cybertron are hilarious. We don't have feats to prove it, so it's a LOT of speculation, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that he'd be approaching Skyfather level in those settings.

I see my knowledge is not needed here.

Originally posted by Digi
Not a bad assessment, but I'd ask what "prepare his mental state" means. He's not Strange, needing time for anything. He just thinks and it happens, and he knows how to fight. That sounds to me like a fancy way of trying to get a foot in the door for a character who's overmatched. We assume reasonable use of powers, yeah? So his mental state is just fine.

Orion more durable than Majestic...agreed. But they're in the same league, yeah? The point is that the Doctor wasn't even trying, and wouldn't have had to against Cpt. Atom either. The Doctor was the only one within sniffing distance of the baddy in the arc with the whole Justice League. Giving Orion a slight durability edge over Majestic is throwing paper towels into a swimming pool to stop a child from drowning.

I've addressed the drug addiction. He was out for a couple fights, and sober for the rest. it's overblown. Most times he's removed through a plot device not tied to his character traits. I'd also request examples of "screwing up" in actual fights where he had his wits about him. You clearly know the team and what it's done, so that kind of nebulous statement is again begging for specifics. But unless we assume he actually shows up stoned to the fight - which I think we can all agree would be a laughable concession that he normally wins against Orion - then what's the argument for Orion here?

I mean prepare in the sense that's he's ready to fight someone like Orion. He isn't facing another flying brick here. He's fighting the dog of war, who comes with the AstroForce, Mother Box and a savagery he's rarely seen.

I don't believe the usual level of easiness he's accustomed to when facing most beings will be sufficient for Orion. So by prepare himself I mean, he's ready for a fight, he know he'll have to work and if he's not careful he can go down.

Orion is not just more durable than Majestic, he's also a lot more cosmologically important with a much higher state of existence and with much higher overall feats (The same way Thor = God has allowed him to do high end feats).

I for example can totally see the Doctor trying to warp Orion, failing (I don't subscribe to the idea that the Doctor can easily transmute Orion etc.) and the shock and surprise being enough for Orion to land a knock out punch on the Doctor. And yes, technically he's impossible to kill based on the rogue Doctor but as we both know that hardly means he can't be knocked out or incapacitated.

Originally posted by Digi
Agreed, both about them doing better than expected, and about Orion ultimately beating them.

Jack in cities is really interesting, and placing his upper limit is tricky. In debates, it's often shrugged away because he's against characters with city-busting blasts. Which is a good argument. But it's not just sitting there. If you created a character from scratch that was the literal size of a city, made of metal and concrete, and gave it punching power to match, phasing, and the ability to heal, gravity manipulation, etc. I think many would see it as >>> than what they see as Jack's potential.

The threads with him on Coruscant and Cybertron are hilarious. We don't have feats to prove it, so it's a LOT of speculation, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that he'd be approaching Skyfather level in those settings.

U also can chalk it up to the fact that outside Mids/Apollo the rest just arent that popular.

As far as Jack Id love to see him in a Mega City One, Iacon type scenario or maybe a psuedo/mythologic "city" like Olympus or Hell. He has a shit ton of potential

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I mean prepare in the sense that's he's ready to fight someone like Orion. He isn't facing another flying brick here. He's fighting the dog of war, who comes with the AstroForce, Mother Box and a savagery he's rarely seen.

I don't believe the usual level of easiness he's accustomed to when facing most beings will be sufficient for Orion. So by prepare himself I mean, he's ready for a fight, he know he'll have to work and if he's not careful he can go down.

Orion is not just more durable than Majestic, he's also a lot more cosmologically important with a much higher state of existence and with much higher overall feats (The same way Thor = God has allowed him to do high end feats).

I for example can totally see the Doctor trying to warp Orion, failing (I don't subscribe to the idea that the Doctor can easily transmute Orion etc.) and the shock and surprise being enough for Orion to land a knock out punch on the Doctor. And yes, technically he's impossible to kill based on the rogue Doctor but as we both know that hardly means he can't be knocked out or incapacitated.

Fair enough. And I agree transmutation stuff gets tricky to predict once you get into "god" territory. Though again, a lot is just that the Authority doesn't old back like most superhero teams. I think there's a good chance the transmutation - even if it isn't a OHK - is something he'd struggle to handle. And like, we should be able to say for sure that it works on other beings at that power level (Majestic, other Superman-class heroes, etc.), so Orion might be able to block that particular OHK, but it's a temporary reprieve against a character that can usually brush off heralds like dandruff.

Personally, I think it would be much more like the fight against the cultist telepath, where once Jeroen decided to get serious, he grew to the size of a skyscraper and ate the dude whole, just moments after he had been punching Apollo literally around the globe and generally no-selling the rest of the Authority. And his powers might not transmute Orion wholesale, but they wouldn't be impotent either. The Majestic-freeze feat followed by a beatdown is another reasonable scenario imo. Again, friggin' Majestic couldn't move, and it was easy. How much more effort would be required to do the same to anyone at that level, even if Orion is marginally stronger? A concentrated telekinetic freeze on his entire being should be enough for plenty of damage to be inflicted. No one's saying he's going to nonchalantly moonwalk into the fight. That's just a reference point for saying that a serious Doctor is far too much for a herald to match.

Didn't know Rage was an Orion fan.

Originally posted by Digi
Fair enough. And I agree transmutation stuff gets tricky to predict once you get into "god" territory. Though again, a lot is just that the Authority doesn't old back like most superhero teams. I think there's a good chance the transmutation - even if it isn't a OHK - is something he'd struggle to handle. And like, we should be able to say for sure that it works on other beings at that power level (Majestic, other Superman-class heroes, etc.), so Orion might be able to block that particular OHK, but it's a temporary reprieve against a character that can usually brush off heralds like dandruff.

Personally, I think it would be much more like the fight against the cultist telepath, where once Jeroen decided to get serious, he grew to the size of a skyscraper and ate the dude whole, just moments after he had been punching Apollo literally around the globe and generally no-selling the rest of the Authority. And his powers might not transmute Orion wholesale, but they wouldn't be impotent either. The Majestic-freeze feat followed by a beatdown is another reasonable scenario imo. Again, friggin' Majestic couldn't move, and it was easy. How much more effort would be required to do the same to anyone at that level, even if Orion is marginally stronger? A concentrated telekinetic freeze on his entire being should be enough for plenty of damage to be inflicted. No one's saying he's going to nonchalantly moonwalk into the fight. That's just a reference point for saying that a serious Doctor is far too much for a herald to match.

I understand what you're seeing but I think being a New God adds a whole new level of protection compared to standard superheroes like Majestic, particularly compared to exotic types of forces. We haven't even touched upon the True New God form which brings about an entirely new dimension into the conversation.

Fair enough. If the Doctor exerted his psychic magic to hold Orion in a block of telekinesis for example, I think he'd probably win but that's what I mean by the Doctor getting serious, utilizing his powers in creative ways.

The Authority has to be ready, and serious to take him down. Because they aren't facing another flying brick, they're facing Orion, and we all know what happens when he's written efficiently. Cue the Walter Simonson paperback:
http://illustrationfriday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/splash-orion-11.jpg

Using his powers in creative ways is basically the Doctor's MO, just saying.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Didn't know Rage was an Orion fan.




Yeah, loving Rage repping Orion so well!!

Originally posted by Smurph


If you're out to troll without reading a comic, you can do that anywhere, not just in your own threads.
Well if you're out to get trolled, you usually do most of the work, so thank you.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I dont think its so much as trolling as riv just legit doesnt read up on most characters and he seems genuinely upset when his threads get prematurely shut down...like Digimark just did.
Nah, when i dont know a character, i routinely bring the fact up.
Didnt this time, so thats not the case.

And if all the so called well read posters here can contribute is 'Doctor solos' then, they're showing there's a difference between reading and understanding a comic.

And thanks to everyone who gave me some well thought out opinions.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16440371#post16440371

Interested in input from Doctor fans.

^^^ooh, not my kinda match up, as i detest DBZ. Hope the Doc gets the nod in that one.

Originally posted by cdtm
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16440371#post16440371

Interested in input from Doctor fans.

Dunno sh*t about Goku/DBZ, so that thread will escape my wrath.

All you need to know is DBZ -is- shit.

Originally posted by Digi
Dunno sh*t about Goku/DBZ, so that thread will escape my wrath.

Riv isn't wrong.

If Goku could bust a universe (And I'm not saying he can, but a scene happened where Goku and Beerus the Destroyer struck fists, sent out some waves, and some old god said "If they do that three times, the universe will be desttoyed!"

If he was really that powerful, could the Doctor survive it?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I understand what you're seeing but I think being a New God adds a whole new level of protection compared to standard superheroes like Majestic, particularly compared to exotic types of forces. We haven't even touched upon the True New God form which brings about an entirely new dimension into the conversation.

Fair enough. If the Doctor exerted his psychic magic to hold Orion in a block of telekinesis for example, I think he'd probably win but that's what I mean by the Doctor getting serious, utilizing his powers in creative ways.

The Authority has to be ready, and serious to take him down. Because they aren't facing another flying brick, they're facing Orion, and we all know what happens when he's written efficiently. Cue the Walter Simonson paperback:
http://illustrationfriday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/splash-orion-11.jpg

I'll wind this down because further discussion would start to split hairs. I have a hard time gifting Orion immunity to what is basically the Doctor's entire power set, of shaping reality to his will. The fact that he's a New God must be acknowledged, I agree, but it's really only that nebulous protection that's saving this from being a laughable stomp. I still don't think the fight is in any doubt, but if it helps for me to concede that he'd need to bring his A Game, he would.

Epic pic, of course. Nice use of it.

Originally posted by riv6672
All you need to know is DBZ -is- shit.

Originally posted by cdtm
Riv isn't wrong.

If Goku could bust a universe (And I'm not saying he can, but a scene happened where Goku and Beerus the Destroyer struck fists, sent out some waves, and some old god said "If they do that three times, the universe will be desttoyed!"

If he was really that powerful, could the Doctor survive it?

Lol,

On your question, it depends. Could he tank it straight-up? No, I doubt it. He's set up transmutation walls for all sorts of blasts, but that's more than he's tanked by a large margin. But he can walk dimensions like we walk to the kitchen for a beer. Or create a pocket dimension for himself to avoid it. Or phase. Or convert himself into a concept unaffected by raw force. Or...you get the idea. He'd have a better shot ignoring the damage that way.

I wonder how the Doctor can deal with a MB. The very energy (The Source) and device that will aide Orion.

Originally posted by Digi
I'll wind this down because further discussion would start to split hairs. I have a hard time gifting Orion immunity to what is basically the Doctor's entire power set, of shaping reality to his will. The fact that he's a New God must be acknowledged, I agree, but it's really only that nebulous protection that's saving this from being a laughable stomp. I still don't think the fight is in any doubt, but if it helps for me to concede that he'd need to bring his A Game, he would.

Epic pic, of course. Nice use of it.
^^^Fair enough.

TBC, since i didnt address your reply, the link i posted for you earlier was to show that underneath all the various story arcs for the team, was not 'Doctor solos' over and over.
The Doctor simply doesnt 'shit stomp' on average, so replies like that, oversimplify.

Originally posted by riv6672
^^^Fair enough.

TBC, since i didnt address your reply, the link i posted for you earlier was to show that underneath all the various story arcs for the team, was not 'Doctor solos' over and over.
The Doctor simply doesnt 'shit stomp' on average, so replies like that, oversimplify.

Agreed on that point, at least. One word answers of any variety (or short phrases) are generally pointless as either springboards for discussion or defensible statements on their own.

As I mentioned earlier, though, the lengths the writers went to write out the Doctor from fights where he really would solo was incredibly impressive. They never let the comic become self-aware enough to make it a joke, but it strained credulity at least once or twice. And it gave him remarkably few low showings when he was actually allowed to engage in combat. "Lol drug use" being the most common retort in debates against him, which is a telling sign that without crippling CIS nerfs, he was single-handedly more powerful than most teams out there.

Originally posted by Digi
Agreed on that point, at least. One word answers of any variety (or short phrases) are generally pointless as either springboards for discussion or defensible statements on their own.

As I mentioned earlier, though, the lengths the writers went to write out the Doctor from fights where he really would solo was incredibly impressive. They never let the comic become self-aware enough to make it a joke, but it strained credulity at least once or twice. And it gave him remarkably few low showings when he was actually allowed to engage in combat. "Lol drug use" being the most common retort in debates against him, which is a telling sign that without crippling CIS nerfs, he was single-handedly more powerful than most teams out there.
Agreed on your point(s) too.
It used to irk me how stories were wtitten as you described. Unfortunately, it all went to the Doctor's character development.
Thanks for understanding my main peev with one word answers/short phrases.
This being a discussion site, they kind of defeat the purpose.

Originally posted by Digi
Lol,

On your question, it depends. Could he tank it straight-up? No, I doubt it. He's set up transmutation walls for all sorts of blasts, but that's more than he's tanked by a large margin. But he can walk dimensions like we walk to the kitchen for a beer. Or create a pocket dimension for himself to avoid it. Or phase. Or convert himself into a concept unaffected by raw force. Or...you get the idea. He'd have a better shot ignoring the damage that way.

And what if the other guy is Flash fast?

Can Doctor deal with super speed?

Originally posted by cdtm
And what if the other guy is Flash fast?

Can Doctor deal with super speed?

In theory, yes. He's done localized time stops that would presumably negate such levels of speed and protect him in a time bubble. In practice, WS doesn't have speedsters on Flash's level, so there isn't a lot of precedent for it. Whereas the Doctor has reformed in comics after getting blown up or otherwise "killed," that was always mid-battle. There's some evidence to suggest a true speedblitz would work, and it would likely take someone of Flash's speed to do so. As soon as he thinks a thought, it's pretty much game over for that tactic. And as with many things in comics that lack definitive feats one way or another, we're dealing with subjective interpretation and probability at that point.

Originally posted by Digi
In theory, yes. He's done localized time stops that would presumably negate such levels of speed and protect him in a time bubble. In practice, WS doesn't have speedsters on Flash's level, so there isn't a lot of precedent for it. Whereas the Doctor has reformed in comics after getting blown up or otherwise "killed," that was always mid-battle. There's some evidence to suggest a true speedblitz would work, and it would likely take someone of Flash's speed to do so. As soon as he thinks a thought, it's pretty much game over for that tactic. And as with many things in comics that lack definitive feats one way or another, we're dealing with subjective interpretation and probability at that point.

Excellent, I can work with this.

Then again, it doesn't have Superman, so the usual suspects might ignore the thread altogether.


But thanks for your input.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://replygif.net/i/363.gif

Such a shame he only played the Doctor for a season. Everyone raves about tennant, but to me, he was just as good.

He's my fav.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's my fav.

Your my fav

https://m.popkey.co/8b469b/DeEoV.gif

Originally posted by cdtm
Excellent, I can work with this.

Then again, it doesn't have Superman, so the usual suspects might ignore the thread altogether.


But thanks for your input.
This thread didnt have Supes, and as you can see just by this page, it drew all the fanboys...

The Doctor might struggle with the Astroforce, mother box etc.