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Round 1: TCW Sheev
Round 2: ROTS Sheev
Round 3: ROTJ Sheev

All out

We don't actually know what peak Luke is capable of.

However, he likely never surpassed Sidious.

Why are people making these threads before we actually can gauge Luke/Snoke's abilities? Like come on.

Anyway, I'm fairly certain Luke would have surpassed ROTJ canon Sidious ... though he doesn't come close to either his own EU Incarnation or DE Sidious.

Originally posted by ares834
We don't actually know what peak Luke is capable of.

However, he likely never surpassed Sidious.

Peak Luke got his shit pushed in by 16 year old Kylo Ren. All incarnations of Sheev push his shit in.

Originally posted by ares834
At times I wonder if people watch these films before commenting.

Originally posted by ares834


Again I just watched the film in its entirety. Luke gets owned by young Kylo.

Dies to all of them

Sheev stomps him. Luke got put on his ass by Rey ffs.

Sheev takes this.

If we take Hamil at his word his prime was RotJ.

He gets wrecked all rounds.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Again I just watched the film in its entirety. Luke gets owned by young Kylo.

Originally posted by Greysentinel365
If we take Hamil at his word his prime was RotJ.

He gets wrecked all rounds.

Given how pathetic he is in TLJ I actually agree with him.

Luke's probably more powerful than Sidious based on TLJ.

How come, Ant?

Luke's illusion projection feat was next-level stuff. Granted, it was on a powerful nexus, Luke was in deep meditation, and it may have killed him, but I was really impressed by that.

He also had other cool stuff like casually blowing up the hut and toying with Kylo in sabers.

This is pure speculation though and obviously not really something that can be taken to a debate. Luke's powers are shrouded in mystery and will probably forever be left open-to-debate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke's probably more powerful than Sidious based on TLJ.

Is this denial or buyers regret after spending 20 bucks on the worst Star Wars movie in history?

Luke did literally nothing. Some shitty Force illusion is not on Sidious' level. If he could actually do something to Kylo from that distance it would have been impressive, but he's there to stall Kylo. Meanwhile, Rey gets a better TK feat than anything Luke ever got.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Some shitty Force illusion is not on Sidious' level.

Great argument. I can see why you're so "respected" aroung here.

Luke exploding the stone hut casually and toying with Rey in that stick fight were impressive ish but that whole Force projection thing was too hokey and out of the parameters of what the Force does; im not saying dont go into new territory with Force abilities (which they did in TFA) im saying dont make the abilities so far out there with no tether to whats come before... having said that the couple of moves Luke had in his "duel" with Kylo pissed me off because I wanted to see so much more of that from him!!

Exactly, Kylo vs Luke should have much better than that quick exchange

Originally posted by relentless1
Luke exploding the stone hut casually and toying with Rey in that stick fight

And she still put him on his ass. That's what I hate about this movie. All of it just focused on making the OT characters and Luke especially look bad so the new guys can shine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke's probably more powerful than Sidious based on TLJ.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke's illusion projection feat was next-level stuff. Granted, it was on a powerful nexus, Luke was in deep meditation, and it may have killed him, but I was really impressed by that.

He also had other cool stuff like casually blowing up the hut and toying with Kylo in sabers.

This is pure speculation though and obviously not really something that can be taken to a debate. Luke's powers are shrouded in mystery and will probably forever be left open-to-debate.

Lol Sidious choked out someone vastly superior to Kylo Ren from across the galaxy on Coruscant. How is an illusion superior? Deceiving the eyes and the senses is childs play for the Force.

The Force Projection technique was great and really shown how far Luke has come. However, I don't think it suggests that Luke has become a great warrior rather he just has great mastery and knowledge of the force.

Luke wins.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lol Sidious choked out someone vastly superior to Kylo Ren from across the galaxy on Coruscant. How is an illusion superior? Deceiving the eyes and the senses is childs play for the Force.

No remark on Sidious( we don't have enough information on Luke yet, just one single movie), but this was a real force "projection". A far, far cry from mere telepathy. He wasn't deceiving the senses of anyone here, he was literally projecting a form of himself across the galaxy.

Nothing like it has ever been seen in the movies, or even close. It is unique. Don't be spoiled by the EU and take the more estoric force powers for granted. In fact, the projection could be solid or hollow at will. Obviously, it is something special.

Yep. Hopefully the EU doesn't belittle it and instead restricts it to an ability for Luke.

For all the good it did him. He used it for 5 minutes and it killed him.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
No remark on Sidious( we don't have enough information on Luke yet, just one single movie), but this was a real force "projection". A far, far cry from mere telepathy. He wasn't deceiving the senses of anyone here, he was literally projecting a form of himself across the galaxy.

Nah, it was an illusion, its why he was armed with his father's lightsaber and appeared ~10 years younger. It was clearly a reference to the very first lesson Obi-Wan gives Luke "your eyes can decieve you, don't trust them". Kylo's lightsaber couldn't touch him, neither could the weapons from the walker. The ability doesn't seem superior to what Sidious and Dooku did to Yoda on Morriband. And, for the record I believe Yoda projects himself to Ahsoka in rebels.



Sidious and Dooku perform a pretty esoteric feat in TCWs finale. Using the force to move snow around or make someone feel that you are there are rather casual applications. Hell Kylo and Rey could feel each other physically and they are untrained newbies.

Originally posted by Psychotron
And she still put him on his ass. That's what I hate about this movie. All of it just focused on making the OT characters and Luke especially look bad so the new guys can shine.

yeah that only really happened because she grabbed a saber and he had none; this is why I say that it was impressive ish... he looked good and i imagined him doing that with a saber which again pissed me off because I wanted to see much more of that from Luke

I know that's why it happened. What pisses me off is that Johnson wrote that scene in that way specifically so Rey can talk down to Luke. It's insulting.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah, it was an illusion, its why he was armed with his father's lightsaber and appeared ~10 years younger. It was clearly a reference to the very first lesson Obi-Wan gives Luke "your eyes can decieve you, don't trust them". Kylo's lightsaber couldn't touch him, neither could the weapons from the walker. The ability doesn't seem superior to what Sidious and Dooku did to Yoda on Morriband. And, for the record I believe Yoda projects himself to Ahsoka in rebels.



Sidious and Dooku perform a pretty esoteric feat in TCWs finale. Using the force to move snow around or make someone feel that you are there are rather casual applications. Hell Kylo and Rey could feel each other physically and they are untrained newbies.

If it was an illusion, then he pretty much Tp'ed the full armies of the Resistance and the FO. Because every single one saw it.

Which in of itself, makes it better than anything we've seen before.

What's more, Luke clearly could become solid, because his "ahem" physical contact with Leia is made blatant. What's more, the "golden dice" or whatever that Luke gave to Leia were part of his illusion too and alternated between solid and hollow to Kylo. He clearly could pick them up as if they were real, yet they vanish a few seconds later.

Also, I said movies. Because Luke's feats are limited to just one.

Sidious and Dooku used rituals to perform and they did it in conjunction with each other. And whatever they did, was similar to telepathy, not force projection, because they only affected the "mind" of Yoda.

Sidious used Dooku's powers, the darkness and power on Moraband itself, and Dooku's bond with Yoda, all in conjunction with his Sith knowledge to make it work.

The two aren't comparable at all.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
If it was an illusion, then he pretty much Tp'ed the full armies of the Resistance and the FO. Because every single one saw it.

Okay? And Yoda was able to project images of the Grand Inquisitor to the Inquisitors at the Jedi Temple and it certainly didn't kill him. Mother Talzin projects herself across the galaxy numerous times throughout TCWs. Sure it's impressive, but it is hardly superior to other force feats we've seen to the extent it makes me think 'Luke is the most powerful Jedi in the mythos'.



Sure, but it isn't anything monumental, and the feat is diminished by the fact that it killed him.



As I said, untrained Kylo and Rey could make physical contact from across the galaxy. That's not impressive.



Okay. In the context of just the movies then sure its an impressive feat, but that's not saying much considering the movies veer away from the more esoteric applications of the force. That's more of a lack of exposure than a grand feat for Luke. And again it killed him



I think projection and telepathy are very similar applications of the Force. And unlike Luke's projection, Sidious and Dooku's ritual nearly killed Yoda.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Again I just watched the film in its entirety. Luke gets owned by young Kylo.

He let himself die so the Rebels could escape, he easily dodged his lightsaber strikes while straining from concentrating his illusion from planets away.

He would butcher Kylo if they fought straightup

He is talking about when Kylo collapsed the hut. Still it's an "lol" worthy argument as well.

TBF its probably pretty easy to dodge someone with a projection.

Also Luke was trying to de-escalate the fight and was unbalanced by the situation. Kylo didn't beat him straight up. He just took him by surprise in an unguarded moment like he did with Snoke.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Okay? And Yoda was able to project images of the Grand Inquisitor to the Inquisitors at the Jedi Temple and it certainly didn't kill him. Mother Talzin projects herself across the galaxy numerous times throughout TCWs. Sure it's impressive, but it is hardly superior to other force feats we've seen to the extent it makes me think 'Luke is the most powerful Jedi in the mythos'.



Sure, but it isn't anything monumental, and the feat is diminished by the fact that it killed him.



As I said, untrained Kylo and Rey could make physical contact from across the galaxy. That's not impressive.



Okay. In the context of just the movies then sure its an impressive feat, but that's not saying much considering the movies veer away from the more esoteric applications of the force. That's more of a lack of exposure than a grand feat for Luke. And again it killed him



I think projection and telepathy are very similar applications of the Force. And unlike Luke's projection, Sidious and Dooku's ritual nearly killed Yoda.

1. FFS, I said only the movies.

Why is that so special? Because Yoda is strained worse than Luke, in trying to lift a simple pillar.

Movies, show the characters at their absolute weakest forms. It has nothing to do with canon. Why? Because the very same Yoda suddenly has enough raw power to hold back a mountain( yeah, yeah, it is not Tk, but the force output is still monumental), Mace Windu is pushing around massive mining vehicles with the force, 3 year post TPM Obi Wan is yanking around huge airships through the air, and Maul is yanking around 20 m shuttles in the show.

Don't get me started on Rebels. Or what Vader does in LOTS. A lot weaker version of the Vader, who failed to retrieve a datacard from Rebels ten feet in front of him in the movie.

Clearly, there is a clear cut difference in power and portrayal when it comes to movies and when it comes to other canon content. Therefore, it is wise to limit it only to the movies.

2. The feat itself didn't kill him. He "chose" to vanish into the force of his "own accord". I have no idea why this is so difficult to understand. All the feat did was strain him.

We don't know the details of what "contact" they made. I'd advise you to wait till more information comes on the matter.

"Lack of exposure" isn't an argument. In general, if we have a feat unprecedented and completely unique, then the guy attributed to for the feat gets full credit.

3. Here are two options we have to consider:

a. It was a force projection, and a unique one, because it had the ability to become solid or hollow at will. That's "not" telepathy, or even close to it. It is far superior.

It is kind of like making a vessel invisible. You aren't affecting the minds of anyone, but actually affecting the photons( or whatever in SW) falling on that vessel to cloak it. Of course, Luke's version is a lot more than that.

And of course, for this case, the projection actually had to react to Kylo Ren( because it isn't in the "mind" here, it is for real) and dodge his strikes. Which kind of increases the impressiveness by a lot.

b. If you reject that notion, and assume that Luke's Tp is so advanced as to trick both Kylo and Leia so profoundly, then he basically Tp'ed everyone in the Resistance and the FO, both the armies present.

In any case, doing either of that across the galaxy, is easily one of, if not the best feat, in the "movies".

It was definitely the most impressive display of Force mastery we've seen yet IMO (well aside from perhaps ghosting). It also ties in nicely with what Luke learns in the OT.

"War not make one great", "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack", etc...

Really great stuff there.

Originally posted by carthage
He let himself die so the Rebels could escape, he easily dodged his lightsaber strikes while straining from concentrating his illusion from planets away.

He would butcher Kylo if they fought straightup

Oh I agree, I think Luke is solidly above Kylo Ren.

Originally posted by ares834
He is talking about when Kylo collapsed the hut. Still it's an "lol" worthy argument as well.

You are mistaking what I am saying. Kylo owning Luke isn't a feat for Kylo. Its a negative feat for Luke. People count it as a feat for Sidious choking out Dooku even though the Count was likely caught off guard. An untrained Jedi boy can see the future and use it to fly a pod racer and yet a fully trained Jedi Master cannot forsee a Padawan who sees his Master standing over him with his lightsaber drawn is going to retaliate.

Sidious or Yoda in the same situation would not have been KO'd like that. Which is the point of this entire argument. Canon Luke is a solid tier below Canon Palpatine. I'd put him at Ben Kenobi-level at the absolute best.



Yeah I have no interest in debating Movies only. You are in the Literature and EU section of the forums. You want to discuss movies only, you can go to the baren wasteland of the movies. And yea...it is because you pretty much are flaunting Luke's feat as 'teh greatest eva' and while it was cool and an impressive feat, its hardly enough to put him above the likes of Palpatine.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You are mistaking what I am saying. Kylo owning Luke isn't a feat for Kylo. Its a negative feat for Luke. People count it as a feat for Sidious choking out Dooku even though the Count was likely caught off guard. An untrained Jedi boy can see the future and use it to fly a pod racer and yet a fully trained Jedi Master cannot forsee a Padawan who sees his Master standing over him with his lightsaber drawn is going to retaliate.

Sidious or Yoda in the same situation would not have been KO'd like that. Which is the point of this entire argument. Canon Luke is a solid tier below Canon Palpatine. I'd put him at Ben Kenobi-level at the absolute best.

Why wouldn't they? Having several tons of rocks fall on top of you is going to knock you out.

Originally posted by Lord Stark



Yeah I have no interest in debating Movies only. You are in the Literature and EU section of the forums. You want to discuss movies only, you can go to the baren wasteland of the movies. And yea...it is because you pretty much are flaunting Luke's feat as 'teh greatest eva' and while it was cool and an impressive feat, its hardly enough to put him above the likes of Palpatine.

I never compared Luke to Palpatine. You might have understood that if you weren't playing the lowballing game here. Perhaps you'd understand that we literally have almost nothing to compare with because in case you hadn't noticed, Luke's just got one movie. And for the weakling he's been portrayed to be, the singular feat he has is better than anything we've seen in the movies before. "That" is the only assertion I have made. No point getting sore here.

Also for the record, if that is an anti feat for Luke, then Maul has it a thousand times worse. Snoke has it ten thousand times worse. Yoda and Sidious? Palpatine in ROTJ? Perhaps the thousands of Jedi, most of whom failed to even react to a single bolt.

Let's not start a "spitting-on-Luke-for-the-bandwagon" here, because quite frankly, this is the most asinine lowballing attempt so far. Kylo was not only his padawan, but his nephew. Luke would have been massively conflicted even going into that room to kill him. There is no way a cheap shot on him in that state wouldn't have succeeded. For any of the above cases, even if they were distracted or conflicted( Maul was neither, Snoke too was neither and he utterly failed to sense an attack coming from Kylo, despite Kylo being his current student), Luke has it much worse, for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by ares834
Why wouldn't they? Having several tons of rocks fall on top of you is going to knock you out.

Sure if they got hit. But they never would get caught unawares by a bloodlusted Padawan. The very notion is absurd.

And yeah, considering all of current canon, Palpatine has this in the bag.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sure if they got hit. But they never would get caught unawares by a bloodlusted Padawan. The very notion is absurd.

Clouded he was, by doubt. By shame.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I never compared Luke to Palpatine. You might have understood that if you weren't playing the lowballing game here. Perhaps you'd understand that we literally have almost nothing to compare with because in case you hadn't noticed, Luke's just got one movie. And for the weakling he's been portrayed to be, the singular feat he has is better than anything we've seen in the movies before. "That" is the only assertion I have made. No point getting sore here.

We're in a Palpatine vs. Luke thread...in case you haven't noticed. Luke is powerful in his own right. I'm not spitting on him. But this thread is literally comparing him to the most powerful baddie in the mythos.



Yeah agreed on the first two points. Palpatine in ROTJ was blinded by his own rage + even then he still killed Vader. Vader's raw physical strength also did overpower him.




And yet a massively conflicted Anakin still fought on par with one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history. I'd agree he's probably around Maul-level, but he lacks the gravitas of anyone higher than that. In terms of combat, he's solid council level. But we're posting in a thread comparing him to Palpatine. The bar is far higher.



Yes, but Yoda clouded by the dark side, Anakin clouded by doubt and shame, and Mace Windu blinded by his love of the Republic all performed way better than Luke did. [

None of them were in the middle of trying to stop the fight though. A Jedi's mindset is super important and Luke was panicking, in a terrible mental state and not ready for anything.

Shit happens. Jedi are only human (or aliens). Ben acted decisively when Luke was anything but. It only takes that split second, even for Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of them were in the middle of trying to stop the fight though. A Jedi's mindset is super important and Luke was panicking, in a terrible mental state and not ready for anything.

Anakin literally just choked out his pregnant wife and before that was weeping. I think that's an even worse mental state than Luke was.



He failed, pretty monumentally. Yes shit happens, but frankly that showing is disqualifying for Luke being top tier. Now perhaps in the new EU he'll get some expanded feats to redeem him, but based on what we have he's nowhere near Sheev.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
We're in a Palpatine vs. Luke thread...in case you haven't noticed. Luke is powerful in his own right. I'm not spitting on him. But this thread is literally comparing him to the most powerful baddie in the mythos.



Yeah agreed on the first two points. Palpatine in ROTJ was blinded by his own rage + even then he still killed Vader. Vader's raw physical strength also did overpower him.




And yet a massively conflicted Anakin still fought on par with one of the most powerful Jedi Masters in galactic history. I'd agree he's probably around Maul-level, but he lacks the gravitas of anyone higher than that. In terms of combat, he's solid council level. But we're posting in a thread comparing him to Palpatine. The bar is far higher.



Yes, but Yoda clouded by the dark side, Anakin clouded by doubt and shame, and Mace Windu blinded by his love of the Republic all performed way better than Luke did.

Sure. As of now, Palpatine>Luke in canon. Unless Luke gets some pretty good feats.

But not because of this.

If you agree with those points, then all you have to do is realize that what Kylo pulled was essentially a cheap-shot. The situation is same as what Vader did to Sidious, and the excuses are the same, if not worse for Luke. The difference being that many tons of rock instantly buried him before he could do anything about it.

Passively sensing, and actively fighting are two different things. The same Anakin failed to sense his master at all, who he has intricate bonds with, standing just feet away, yet we are not going to claim that his power in the force is lesser than that of a padawan are we? Also not relevant, but Anakin wasn't "conflicted" as such. He was just too absorbed in his own rage and anger, like Palpatine was in ROTJ.

Luke's passive senses had to work for him to prevent Kylo's attack. Because he was hugely conflicted, they didn't.

Getting cheap-shotted isn't really an anti feat, because it is scattered throughout SW like sand in a desert. If we go into Legends, Krayt comes to mind immediately, who also, has no excuse. And this is the guy who was supposed to be GM Luke's( the most powerful force user in SW, aside from the entities) antithesis on the throne of balance, and who fought Abeloth with a level of performance not far off from Luke's own.

Comparing to Maul is just unfair. In terms of the force, he is inferior to no one aside from Yoda/Sidious as of now. In terms of dueling, well, that is a grey area. I probably have a worse opinion than you about that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of them were in the middle of trying to stop the fight though. A Jedi's mindset is super important and Luke was panicking, in a terrible mental state and not ready for anything.

Shit happens. Jedi are only human (or aliens). Ben acted decisively when Luke was anything but. It only takes that split second, even for Jedi.



Well said.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Sure. As of now, Palpatine>Luke in canon. Unless Luke gets some pretty good feats.

But not because of this.

If you agree with those points, then all you have to do is realize that what Kylo pulled was essentially a cheap-shot. The situation is same as what Vader did to Sidious, and the excuses are the same, if not worse for Luke. The difference being that many tons of rock instantly buried him before he could do anything about it.

Passively sensing, and actively fighting are two different things. The same Anakin failed to sense his master at all, who he has intricate bonds with, standing just feet away, yet we are not going to claim that his power in the force is lesser than that of a padawan are we? Also not relevant, but Anakin wasn't "conflicted" as such. He was just too absorbed in his own rage and anger, like Palpatine was in ROTJ.

Luke's passive senses had to work for him to prevent Kylo's attack. Because he was hugely conflicted, they didn't.

Getting cheap-shotted isn't really an anti feat, because it is scattered throughout SW like sand in a desert. If we go into Legends, Krayt comes to mind immediately, who also, has no excuse.

Comparing to Maul is just unfair. In terms of the force, he is inferior to no one aside from Yoda/Sidious as of now. In terms of dueling, well, that is a grey area. I probably have a worse opinion than you about that.

Yeah, you all keep formulating this strawman that I'm trying to say Luke is inferior to a padawan. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying Luke getting caught off guard by a Padawan in conjunction with his lack of real showings is disqualifying for him to be even remotely comparable to Sidious. If Old Master Maul's only real combat feats in Rebels were getting wrecked by Kanan and then dying of exhaustion after projecting himself in a duel on Tatooine with Kenobi no one would be attempting to argue he's even remotely comparable to Darth Sidious. Because it's ridiculous. That's literally all I've been arguing this whole time.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Anakin literally just choked out his pregnant wife and before that was weeping. I think that's an even worse mental state than Luke was.

But Obi-Wan was right in front of him and he was ready for the fight. The Luke-Ben thing happened in a second. Luke didn't get a chance to finish his sentence let alone react.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He failed, pretty monumentally. Yes shit happens, but frankly that showing is disqualifying for Luke being top tier. Now perhaps in the new EU he'll get some expanded feats to redeem him, but based on what we have he's nowhere near Sheev.

No, not really. Even the best can be sucker-punched. Its not nearly as bad as Sheev and Yoda acting with total surprise when their counterparts slowly stood up, raised their hands and attacked them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But Obi-Wan was right in front of him and he was ready for the fight. The Luke-Ben thing happened in a second. Luke didn't get a chance to finish his sentence let alone react.

That's not true. Luke reacted to the saber attack.




Yes, it is. Getting caught off guard by Yoda or Sidious makes sense because they are both immensely powerful individuals with decades-centuries of mastery in their belt. Their defenses being temporarily blitzed or overwhelmed by someone of that stature is believable and expected. Ben Solo was an untrained Padawan, Luke is a Jedi Master. Its a non-comparison.

Lol, "blitzed". Sidious slowly raised his hands while saying "I'm going to get yoooou!" and Yoda was completely surprised when he actually did attack him.

It was truly pathetic. Luke just got sucker-punched from behind in a moment of indecisiveness.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, "blitzed". Sidious slowly raised his hands while saying "I'm going to get yoooou!" and Yoda was completely surprised when he actually did attack him.

It was truly pathetic. Luke just got sucker-punched from behind in a moment of indecisiveness.

It was lightning from Darth Sidious. Nothing pathetic about getting tagged by that.

Being surprised when a Sith slowly monologues about how hes about to attack you, slowly raises his hands, fingers splayed, pauses for like a full second and then shoots lightning at you is pathetic, yes.

Even Maul would struggle to job like that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Being surprised when a Sith slowly monologues about how hes about to attack you, slowly raises his hands, fingers splayed, pauses for like a full second and then shoots lightning at you is pathetic, yes.

Lol yeah, I'm done with this false equivalency. Yes Dooku did the same thing with "even you" and Yoda easily reacted to a redirected it. Yoda underestimated the speed and strength of Sidious' lightning and was temporarily overpower.

It's retarded to compare getting hit by the most powerful Sith in history at the height of the galaxy being clouded in darkness and getting owned by a Padawan.

Sidious effortlessly struck down two Masters with his saber skills even though they had their weapons drawn and saying "its treason then" and screaming "AHHHHHHH!". That doesn't reflect poorly on those masters because its Darth ****ing Sidious. If it was half trained Ben Solo or say AOTCs Anakin it'd be ****ing pathetic.

At the same time I feel like its retarded to say a blatantly telegraphed attack like that while the characters are staring right at each other with plenty of time to react is ok but a split-second of hesitation while panicking and trying to explain yourself isn't.

Saying "Sidious is super powerfuls so that makes his zaps go fast" is idiotic as a defense. Nothing in the movie (or anywhere) indicates thats the case, its just an excuse you came up with afterwards. Its a terribly shot sequence and isn't excusable. And what does the galaxy being clouded have to do with anything? He's staring right at him! He can see him raising his ****ing hands! He doesn't need to sense anything, he has eyes!

That scene was also terrible, because if you don't assume he's moving super-fast even though he isn't visually, it just looks like those Jedi were literal invalids instead of badass duelists like they were supposed to be. But at least you can assume that, unlike the Yoda scene thats just inexcusable.

The reason Luke-Ben works is because anyone can understand why it happened like that and its completely plausible. You don't need to assume the camera is lying to you. The RotS Sidious stuff was awful in every way.

Originally posted by Psychotron
I know that's why it happened. What pisses me off is that Johnson wrote that scene in that way specifically so Rey can talk down to Luke. It's insulting.

agreed

Originally posted by Nephthys
At the same time I feel like its retarded to say a blatantly telegraphed attack like that while the characters are staring right at each other with plenty of time to react is ok but a split-second of hesitation while panicking and trying to explain yourself isn't.

Saying "Sidious is super powerfuls so that makes his zaps go fast" is idiotic as a defense. Nothing in the movie (or anywhere) indicates thats the case, its just an excuse you came up with afterwards. Its a terribly shot sequence and isn't excusable. And what does the galaxy being clouded have to do with anything? He's staring right at him! He can see him raising his ****ing hands! He doesn't need to sense anything, he has eyes!

It's not idiotic numbnuts. We see Dooku does the same thing to Yoda in AOTCs (he attempts to one-shot him with lighting) And he is able to react to it and block it. And Lucas makes a strong effort to show that Sidious' lighting is faster and stronger than Dooku's. And yeah if I see someone raising a gun to my face that doesn't mean I can react to it.



Lol you apparently need DCU-tier cgi to comprehend that Sidious was simply moving faster. Its not my fault you lack the comprehension to understand the other scene. And I'm not saying it isn't plausible. I'm saying it would not happen to the likes of Sidious and Yoda.

I'm saying Luke getting caught off guard by a Padawan

Let's get one thing straight here. It doesn't matter if it was a padawan or The Father who did that. The same "Darth F...ing Sidious" got tagged by someone much inferior to him, because he wasn't prepared for the attack. Similarly, Luke's mind was so scrambled, his passive senses didn't warn him.

That is not an anti feat for Luke at all.

What's more, what's with all the "padawan Kylo Ren" crap? Kylo was older than Luke was in ROTJ or Anakin in ROTS, and he received almost complete training from Luke. In complete contrast to Luke in ROTJ having formal training of a lot lesser quality than that of a youngling.

Yet, the same "padawan, youngling, poorly trained" Luke beat Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith, in ROTJ. The cheap-shotting there from a beat down, weakened Vader, inferior to Luke( yeah, Luke beat Vader legitimately, "in canon", doesn't bode well for Sidious. If we go by this logic.

My stance hasn't changed in the slightest, in that this is one of the most illogical arguments one can possibly make. Show any amount of incredulity, the fact remains that a person with a massively conflicted mind can be caught off guard by anyone, be it even a youngling. Kylo, having training equal to that of ROTS Anakin( at the very least), and infinitely superior to that of ROTJ Luke, and being older than both, "and" very clearly having the Skywalker potential, this certainly doesn't bear a mark against Luke. And no, I am not dictating that Kylo is now suddenly comparable to either. Yet he clearly is far superior than any normal padawan( possibly knight) as well.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I'm saying Luke getting caught off guard by a Padawan

Let's get one thing straight here. It doesn't matter if it was a padawan or The Father who did that. The same "Darth F...ing Sidious" got tagged by someone much inferior to him, because he wasn't prepared for the attack. Similarly, Luke's mind was so scrambled, his passive senses didn't warn him.

This is also a dumb false equivalency. Vader is rated at 80% of Sidious power wise as per canon and in addition, was fully focused and distracted. It'd be a credible point if Sidious were starting at him.




We have no idea how long Kylo had been trained for. But we haven't seen anything to suggest he was anything but a Padawan.



Yoda flat out said his training was complete aside from confronting Vader. Luke's just a prodigy.




Training doesn't particularly matter. AOTCs Anakin has more training than ROTJ Luke, but Luke is more powerful. Kylo's feats don't really show him as being anywhere near that level currently, let alone years earlier.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
This is also a dumb false equivalency. Vader is rated at 80% of Sidious power wise as per canon and in addition, was fully focused and distracted. It'd be a credible point if Sidious were starting at him.




We have no idea how long Kylo had been trained for. But we haven't seen anything to suggest he was anything but a Padawan.



Yoda flat out said his training was complete aside from confronting Vader. Luke's just a prodigy.




Training doesn't particularly matter. AOTCs Anakin has more training than ROTJ Luke, but Luke is more powerful. Kylo's feats don't really show him as being anywhere near that level currently, let alone years earlier.

1. It is pretty evident that someone who has been battered by someone else who Palpatine effectively destroyed, will "not" be 80% of Palpatine.

Regardless, it doesn't matter "who" caught Luke off guard. Non-force sensitives have caught Jedi Masters off guard before.

"Non-force sensitives". Who are literally nothing, absolutely nothing to them. Likewise, opponents of a similar calibre too, have caught Jedi off guard.

It....does....not....matter.

Since we are taking Lucas''s words at face value here, he has implied that Vader before the suit was as powerful as Sidious and Yoda( indeed the tiering system that he and Gillard developed outright says that). Yet simply due to his immense rage and anger, he was completely unable to sense his own Master, standing just feet away from him till he saw him. Vader, upto that singular point( till he sees Obi Wan), is the most powerful he has ever been. The thing which you need to get into your skull, is that during moments of extreme emotion, you are not expected to sense things which you are supposed to sense passively when you are otherwise balanced. It doesn't matter how powerful you are. This is purely dependent on your state of mind.

Getting caught off guard has nothing to do with your opponent and everything to do with you.

2. So is Kylo, and clearly a "Skywalker level" prodigy. Also, Yoda said no more training do you require, because Luke had learned the essentials, that is, initiate level stuff on his own. However, the quality of his self training would, pretty obviously be much worse than the quality of training he would get from a master.

3. Kylo was pretty much equal to Rey in their force struggle, and Rey's Tk feat blows most PT era Council Members out of the water. What's more, Rey struggled to match Kylo, much more than she struggled with the rocks( she actually didn't), so such a feat would be pretty casual for current Kylo.

Not sure exactly how powerful previous Kylo would be, but by then he had already fallen to the dark side and under Snoke's influence.

Lastly, another reason your argument falls apart, is that there isn't a shred of logic to it. You know, very well, that Kylo is a prodigy and it has been made very clear that he has the Skywalker potential. You know, again, that Kylo was trained, at the very least, in a much better fashion than Luke was( unless you are suggesting that his training was somehoe worse than Luke spending those few weeks on Dagobah, which needless to say, is retarded). In addition, he's older than Luke was.

So, assuming that Luke is so powerful, he is able to go toe to toe with Vader who grounds 99.999% of Jedi Masters in all of SW to dust, is it really far fetched to say that Ben/Kylo at the time would be extremely powerful in his own right? Really not, is the answer. So, even if we go by the silly assumption that somehow, being cheap-shotted by a weak person is an anti-feat, by all grounds, Kylo isn't/wasn't a weak person.

Heck, Kenobi was a padawan in TPM, and he was recognized as one of the most capable and best Jedi of his day, among the echelons of the best masters of the Jedi Order. All Kylo lacks is exposure. Have you even stopped to consider that it might as well be a feat for Kylo instead of the anti feat for Luke that you are continuing to parrot?

So, really, your argument holds no merit. There is literally nothing to it from any perspective we take. Right from your pretty baseless suggestion that padawan Kylo is fodder, to your literal refusal to acknowledge that Luke was massively conflicted( which you have ignored for the most part), and could possibly not have been expected to sense a cheap-shot coming his way, not when literally so many characters, powerful ones have been cheap-shotted before,

And lastly, your utterly illogical equation of you getting caught off guard, to your opponent, and not your frame of mind.

At any rate, I think we should discontinue this tirade. I personally find it incredibly illogical, and you are completely convinced of it. There is little chance of us finding common ground here.

I'll write my thoughts on this in time, but I just wanna quickly add that we have to consider HOW BAD Revenge of the Sith was shot and cut. Just look at the Sheev vs Windu team scene. Sheev looks so telegraphed, whereas we know he was that fast Winu literally couldn't react. It was just poorly shot. Plus Lucas insisted that the actual actors did most/all the fighting sequences .

Luke really has nothing to suggest he'd defeat Palpatine 1 on 1 in a straight up fight.

The Emperor wins.

Impossible to know. Probably would be a good fight

Or he just wanted to see him completely obliterated. Also I feel like were gonna be losing the Falcon next movie with the way things are going for it..

/Shrug

Didn't seem that way to me, but might have to rewatch. Kinda wondering how they are gonna deal with Leia though since Carrie is gone yet her character is still alive..

he also ordered all of the tie fighters to go after the falcon. i wouldn't assume kylo's actions can be assumed to be backed by reason

Originally posted by Lord Stark
We see Dooku does the same thing to Yoda in AOTCs (he attempts to one-shot him with lighting) And he is able to react to it and block it.

And yeah if I see someone raising a gun to my face that doesn't mean I can react to it.


https://i.imgur.com/PlTfDlT.gif

Originally posted by NewGuy01
he also ordered all of the tie fighters to go after the falcon. i wouldn't assume kylo's actions can be assumed to be backed by reason

They were, because the fighters failed. The falcon has a reputation as well, as does it's pilot, Chewbacca.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It was lightning from Darth Sidious. Nothing pathetic about getting tagged by that. One of the most biased responses not being subtle about your bias for Palpatine. Fact is he announces his intentions and it takes two seconds to execute yet he still hits Yoda with the attack. Pitiful.

Originally posted by The Lost
https://i.imgur.com/PlTfDlT.gif Stark is so delusional he truly doesn't see his points eviscerated or his own bias in the mirror. He's a fanboy.

Palpatine stomps. More feats.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Stark is so delusional he truly doesn't see his points eviscerated or his own bias in the mirror. He's a fanboy.

I'm glad I could help you get that off your chest. I'm sure you've felt that way about yourself for some time.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'm glad I could help you get that off your chest. I'm sure you've felt that way about yourself for some time. If you were being honest you'd admit to it and just say you're biased.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you were being honest you'd admit to it and just say you're biased.

Shhhh, just let it out, mate. All your trauma and angst built up from years of being forced to take it on the chin on these boards. It must have been hard for you.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you were being honest you'd admit to it and just say you're biased.

My friend, you seem upset by the prior exchanges in this debate. Why is this? Do you have trouble accepting other opinions?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Shhhh, just let it out, mate. All your trauma and angst built up from years of being forced to take it on the chin on these boards. It must have been hard for you. You are the one ignoring the actual points. Saying Palpatine zapped Yoda who couldn't discern the obvious shows how stupid Yoda was not how impressive Sidious was.

Originally posted by Big Gerald
My friend, you seem upset by the prior exchanges in this debate. Why is this? Do you have trouble accepting other opinions? No, you are incorrect.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are the one ignoring the actual points. Saying Palpatine zapped Yoda who couldn't discern the obvious shows how stupid Yoda was not how impressive Sidious was.

No it really doesn't. Lucas makes it painfully clear that Sidious' lightning is far and away faster and more powerful than Dooku's. You even see Yoda raise his right hand in an attempt to block it but he gets overwhelmed. Yoda underestimated Sidious and got blitzed. It's that simple.

Luke's best feat from TLJ is the illusions. He has other feats in-canon, though, which we can then scale to him(like shaking a Star Destroyer in a fit of rage).

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it really doesn't. Lucas makes it painfully clear that Sidious' lightning is far and away faster and more powerful than Dooku's. You even see Yoda raise his right hand in an attempt to block it but he gets overwhelmed. Yoda underestimated Sidious and got blitzed. It's that simple. It being faster and more powerful than Dooku's doesn't take away from slowly raising his hands and attacking Yoda which takes over two seconds. Yes, Yoda was too slow to react. It happens, but when his guard is raised and he's in the fight he blocks the fl with his own force powers. Yoda underestimating and being caught off guard highlights his ineptitude. This doesn't make Palpatine look great. Equals in terms of the force whereas Snoke has no equal.

Eh, I'm assuming this is prime Luke: the one before cutting himself off from the Force.

What sucks is we have no metric for comparing new characters to old characters.

Well Luke did confirm he Prequels were the Jedi at the height of their powers

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well Luke did confirm he Prequels were the Jedi at the height of their powers



at the height of their power. singular. meaning their political power id always taken that to mean because aside from Yoda and mace we see Jedi drop left right and centre to separatist/clones/sith forces throughout the PT easily enough indicating that most were at best competent with the Force

"POLITICAL POWER"

Harr....

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
"POLITICAL POWER"

Reys feat at the end of the film is pretty high tier for movie only feats.

Yeah, if Rey gets explored more in terms of power I can see her being one of the strongest Jedi in history. Shes got Yoda tier potential for sure.

Now that Anakin is dead, the Force, as per Snoke, is using Kylo and Rey to maintain the balance that Anakin established.

In other words, Kylo and Rey are effectively the new Son and Daughter.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Now that Anakin is dead, the Force, as per Snoke, is using Kylo and Rey to maintain the balance that Anakin established.

In other words, Kylo and Rey are effectively the new Son and Daughter.

he didn't quite go there and neither did the film with that little kid being a Force user also but I do like that scenario; it'd put Anakin chosen one status in a clear light and give him the status he had in the PT again

Snoke says as Kylo grows in power so too will his equal in the light.

In other words, the Force is using them as a balancing act.

yes i recall him saying that but the kid at the end makes Snokes statement a load of shit; no matter which side that kid and other will choose it puts the equation out of balance again

I'm not following. There's always going to be millions of undiscovered Force-users throughout the galaxy in any time period. They're apart of the natural equation.

Rey and Kylo embody the light and dark sides of that equation, just like Anakin embodied the balance.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Snoke says as Kylo grows in power so too will his equal in the light.

In other words, the Force is using them as a balancing act.

The dialogue makes it painfully obvious.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah, you all keep formulating this strawman that I'm trying to say Luke is inferior to a padawan. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying Luke getting caught off guard by a Padawan

Luke in a state of emotional turmoil (both explicitly stated and showed on screen) != Luke in a fair fight. This concept - a high potential / relatively low actualized power combatant getting in a shot against a superior, distracted foe happens like in almost every single piece of Star Wars canon or legends.



That suggests uncertainty, not weakness. I know you could say "well in the absence of more information the probability that he's such an outlier as to be Sidious-tier is unlikely", but that doesn't work here because the default assumption for Luke Skywalker would be that he's on Sidious's tier because of his canon potential.

But if you think that's a lame copout, then fine - but it's even lamer to say "he didn't do much so therefore he's weak", because the uncertainty card favors the prior assumption that he grew much more powerful from being = Vader in RotJ, not that he's weak.



You're also ignoring that he has the most impressive Force feat in the entire movie saga. Well, you're not ignoring it - but you're unnecessarily downplaying it.

Good to see you back, Ell.

Thanks. How's it been going?

@Ellimist

What is the most impressive force feat in the entire saga ? The projection feat at the end ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
@Ellimist

What is the most impressive force feat in the entire saga ? The projection feat at the end ?

I'd say so, though I guess it's hard to compare different kinds of feats.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'd say so, though I guess it's hard to compare different kinds of feats. I believe that occurred on a force nexus.

Is Ahch To a nexus? And even if it were, would such a thing be relevant when projecting oneself across the galaxy or would the place you are projecting to be more important?

Originally posted by ares834
Is Ahch To a nexus? And even if it were, would such a thing be relevant when projecting oneself across the galaxy or would the place you are projecting to be more important? So suddenly a nexus doesn't help amplify his powers. Oh for ****s sake you're supposed to be a well versed fan of the mythos.

It seems you are unable to grasp simple concepts. First, what states Ahch To is a force nexus?

Secondly, since he is manifesting on Crait that would suggest he is controlling Force energy on Crait and not Ahch To. Therefore, he wouldn't be using Ahch To's force nexus (if it even exists) and therefore not amped. Or perhaps astral projection works in an entirely different way, who really knows.

Originally posted by ares834
It seems you are unable to grasp simple concepts. First, what states Ahch To is a force nexus? You're stating this is as a fact but I haven't seen why.

Secondly, since he is manifesting on Crait that would suggest he is controlling Force energy on Crait and not Ahch To. We see the dark hole is the dark side force nexus and the spot in which he has Rey touch the ground to feel the force is the same place he meditates for the feat iirc. This planet had two strong nexuses for the light and the dark. Light is higher in elevation and the dark is lower. Kind of symbolic and polar opposites which is definitely cool.

Ps. Any feat accomplished by the force can be amped by a nexus. It's rather simplistic concept to grasp.

Maybe. But that's never stated. For all we know, that may simply be a nice place to meditate. Don't get me wrong, I expect that Ahch To is abnormally strong with the force but the film never overtly tells us so.

Originally posted by ares834
Maybe. But that's never stated. For all we know, that may simply be a nice place to meditate. Don't get me wrong, I expect that Ahch To is abnormally strong with the force but the film never overtly tells us so. Well most of this shit is vague intentionally since the force is mysterious in nature especially their feats. My interpretation makes logical sense.

This is also the same planet where they keep the original Jedi texts. Is that pretty significant Iyo ? Why wouldn't this planet have a force nexus ?

Force nexus' in Canon don't work the same way as Legends anyway, it seems.

I can see Quanchi now getting this idea: "Ashoka lost cos Vader was at a dark side nexus."

Can't believe he actually argued that Vader wasn't a superior duelist.

Wasn't Luke at dark side nexus?

Originally posted by samappo
I can see Quanchi now getting this idea: "Ashoka lost cos Vader was at a dark side nexus."

Can't believe he actually argued that Vader wasn't a superior duelist. Very close with a slight edge to Vader. He didn't defeat her. He was also more powerful and better than Kenobi but he didn't win in Rots. Results matter not just ability.