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?

they're one and the same.

Plagueis wins.

Snoke dies

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis wins.

Snoke gets stomped

Tenebrous with but a gesture.

In all seriousness Tenebrous wins because Legends characters are just generally more powerful.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In all seriousness Tenebrous wins because Legends characters are just generally more powerful.

It seems as though you think that holistically, Snoke should have been more powerful should they have been in the same medium.

I don't see why. Snoke has no connection to Palpatine in power( aside from the fact that he seems to idolize Vader IIRC, someone a lot weaker than Palpatine).

Snoke gets Tenestomped

Yeah; the real reason Tenebrous wins is Banite scaling.

Hell; Bane himself may have better feats.

Darovit has better feats than Tenebrous, rofl.

And Bane has better feats than Snoke. Like collapsing the Temple of the Ancients and vaporizing all the rain within the radius of his lightsaber.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
It seems as though you think that holistically, Snoke should have been more powerful should they have been in the same medium.

I don't see why. Snoke has no connection to Palpatine in power( aside from the fact that he seems to idolize Vader IIRC, someone a lot weaker than Palpatine).

We'd really need to know more of Snoke's backstory to say. His being relatively "weak" is predicated on the notion that Rey and Kylo aren't that powerful, despite repeated statements to the contrary in the canon.

In terms of scaling and feats Tenebrous, holistically Snoke.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
We'd really need to know more of Snoke's backstory to say. His being relatively "weak" is predicated on the notion that Rey and Kylo aren't that powerful, despite repeated statements to the contrary in the canon.

Shaak ti, Kit Fisto and plo soon are also "powerful".

Originally posted by An_Sock
Shaak ti, Kit Fisto and plo soon are also "powerful".

As in, Kylo and Rey are both implied to have potential rivaling Luke Skywalker's, and Kylo has been training for quite some time soooo

Originally posted by The Ellimist
As in, Kylo and Rey are both implied to have potential rivaling Luke Skywalker's

Really, i'd sure like to see these statements, and who they're coming from.

Originally posted by An_Sock
Really, i'd sure like to see these statements, and who they're coming from.

Luke says he's seen Rey's raw power only once before in Ben Solo (not Palpatine, not Yoda, not Vader, not even himself though he may not be counting himself). Snoke thinks Ben Solo could eventually become powerful enough to defeat Luke, per the Visual Dictionary.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
We'd really need to know more of Snoke's backstory to say. His being relatively "weak" is predicated on the notion that Rey and Kylo aren't that powerful, despite repeated statements to the contrary in the canon.

Then, I hope you don't see it as nitpicking, but you should have said that Tenebrous wins because we don't have information enough on Snoke, instead of saying that he wins just because of Legends vs Canon power disparities.

What would you comment on Darth Plagueis's canonical master vs Snoke? Purely from a holistic point of view. Assuming 30 Sith Lords still exist in the Banite lineage( which mathematically speaking, seems approximately correct).

As for Rey and Kylo, I'd say that they are above a majority of Council Members. Tk wise at least, though I have no idea how they'd fare in dueling.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke says he's seen Rey's raw power only once before in Ben Solo (not Palpatine, not Yoda, not Vader, not even himself though he may not be counting himself).

I don't think that's a valid comparison, given that the term "raw" is probably being used to describe something that's untrained and inexperienced. I highly doubt Luke was looking at Rey and sizing her up to the seasoned veterans he only met while he was just a squire himself. Given that Yoda, Palpatine & Vader were all masters in Force, their power cannot be described as raw, meaning that they can probably be ruled out from this statement. A more reasonable suggestion, is that this puts Reylo directly above the other students of academy - other raw and inexperienced individuals that would have been overseen by Luke. Which means precisely jack shit in comparison to any member of the PT Jedi council.



Okay, so not that Ben's potential is the same as Luke Skywalker's potential. Just that he might be able to beat the old hermit pussy hiding on some remote island, who dulled his own force connection.

Snoke didn't know Luke cut himself from the Force. He could be training a secret army for all he knew.

So we agree there's a bit of speculation and subjectivity to this statement, which by itself, doesn't validate snoke's own assessment of Luke. Not that he himself is being humble, but instead, that he might actually be overestimating Skywalker. On there other hand, if his word indeed infallible, then Snoke is weaker than Luke, but still leagues ahead of Reylo. If that's the case, then Kylo hasn't actually reached anywhere near his "potential", in spite of whatever training he has received or how long he's received it. Meaning that his current power level is nebulous. Is he even above the likes of Coleman Trebor? Possibly, which is why I give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he's early CW Shaak Ti level, who's probably on par with Hope Satele Shan. This is based on objective showings of the characters.

It's not at all mutually exclusive to say that Kylo is much more powerful than Shaak Ti but far weaker than Luke. I have no idea how you're gauging this from objective showings given that their feats are just circular and scaled off one another.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not at all mutually exclusive to say that Kylo is much more powerful than Shaak Ti but far weaker than Luke.

That's nice and all. But until you can actually show me why Kylo is much more powerful than the best council members, making the claim is actually less than pointless. It's also not at all mutually exclusive to say that Kylo is on the same level as Shaak Ti, but has the potential to maybe be better than Luke someday, but currently isn't even close. On the other hand, I don't really see how someone much more powerful than Shaak ti, would ever allow Finn to get a hit on them with a lightsaber.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-24-2017/U75jp_.gif

Especially when the only prior experience the character has had with the weapon, is getting his ass handed to him by a random Storm Trooper

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-24-2017/NErjUu.gif

Meaning that the comparison between Kylo and Shaak ti is actually being generous to him, when you consider that Shaak ti is never discredited with such a low end showing, let alone someone far more powerful than her.



So you're actually admitting that your entire methodology behind scaling Kylo is circular. Well that's exactly my point. Meaning we need a more objective showing. And there is one feat that gives us an idea just how strong he is in the force, although it's not found in the primary source material. In the TFA Novel, Kylo manages to erect a force barrier to stop Rey's lightsbaer, but does eventually get overwhelmed. Both Shaak ti and Satele Shan have been in the same situation against their opponents, Malgus, and Grievous. This is as good a comparison at it gets, while still being generous to Ren, considering his low end feats : getting tagged by Finn, being held dead to rights by a faceless imperial guard Praetorian Guard, the latter of which, if confirmed to be non force sensitive, lowers Kylo even more.

Originally posted by An_Sock
On the other hand, I don't really see how someone much more powerful than Shaak ti, would ever allow Finn to get a hit on them with a lightsaber.

Kylo had been shot by a bowcaster, and the novelization made it clear that killing Han greatly disturbed him / he wasn't exactly in a normal mental state. The movie makes the former pretty clear too as it makes it a point to emphasize that he's bleeding and in apparent pain.



No, because my whole methodology has been trying to bridge that gap by taking the data point that can actually be scaled vs. the PT/OT (Force potential) and then trying to extrapolate how much of that potential was actualized. It's incredibly rough guesswork but it's better than nothing or saying he's weak because of how he fought in the worst possible set of conditions.

I mean, getting tagged by Finn isn't that bad. Look at the mirror with the ESB duel.

ESB - Vader gets tagged by Luke. Vader goes "okay **** this, I'm done playin'" and immediately disarms Luke.

TFA - Kylo gets tagged, Kylo immediately disarms Finn, he's clearly had enough.

Again, there's even more similarities. Vader plays with Luke countless times, where Vader could easily kill him. Again, in TFA, we see Kylo power attack Finn, who falls on the ground. Kylo looks like a mentor, turning away and waiting for Finn to get back up. He also casually moves his body to block Finn's attacks.

In no way does the tagging take away from Ben. You've just blatantly ignored the context.

Again, just to make it abundantly clear.

When Vader got tagged, his immediate follow up was disarming Luke.

When Kylo got tagged, the immediate follow up was disarming Finn.

Someone clearly hasn't bothered to read the novelisation.





Finn's one of the best overall combatants in the First Order, period:



Again, Kylo Ren was severely wounded:





In fact, Kylo Ren couldn't even use the Force properly:



Beyond that, Kylo Ren is an all-time most powerful combatant in the entire mythos:



Shaak Ti would get butchered.

Originally posted by samappo
Again, just to make it abundantly clear.

When Vader got tagged, his immediate follow up was disarming Luke.

When Kylo got tagged, the immediate follow up was disarming Finn.

To be fair, ESB Luke >>>>>> Finn, but I see your point.

The point was solidified by Ancient Power. There's no denying that Kylo is a good combatant, and when he actually got serious he won easily against Finn, and he would have beaten Rey if he hadn't have stopped and started talking to her.

Fully aware of all the surrounding circumstances of the Kylo Ren v Finn fight. It still cheapens him. I still challenge you all to find me a showing as bad as that for Shaak or someone more powerful than her.

1) To Sampoo, Luke and finn aren't remotely comparable. Luke is a force prodigy. Finn is not. Luke hasn't been seen loosing a fight to a random storm trooper, finn has. If your saying those comparisons parallel each other, all it does is show how hilariously below Vader Kylo really is.

2) To AP, being in the top 1 percent of storm troopers doesn't make you anywhere close to being one of the best combatants in the first order. Do you even understand percentages? It makes just makes him better than every other one-hundred soldier out of, what... millions, Billions? Lets say there are only one million troopers in the empire, Finn being in the 99 percentile (the top 1%) only puts him in the top 10,000. And as we see in the film, those odds aren't good enough to dodge an encounter with your combative better, when Finn is easily defeated by a random storm trooper in a battle field. And Kylo performs worse than that Random storm trooper with his wounds/ hinderances against finn.

No, i'm not going to ignore something like that just because Kylo got shot and has daddy issues.

Originally posted by An_Sock
Fully aware of all the surrounding circumstances of the Kylo Ren v Finn fight. It still cheapens him. I still challenge you all to find me a showing as bad as that for Shaak or someone more powerful than her.


Obi Wan vs. Jango Fett or Obi Wan/Maul vs. Pre Vizsla, lol. Though I guess AotC Obi Wan isn't on Shaak Ti's level.

But you can't just say "I know of the circumstances...but they don't matter" without explaining why they don't matter.

Originally posted by An_Sock
I still challenge you all to find me a showing as bad as that for Shaak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-3talVkUA&t=11m57s

It's not "Sampoo"...

Anyway, I'm merely explaining the situation by showing something similar.

Point is, Kylo gets tagged, literally next thing Kylo meets Finn's lightsaber then flings it into the snow, then finishes Finn. That's it.

Originally posted by samappo
It's not "Sampoo"...

Anyway, I'm merely explaining the situation by showing something similar.

Point is, Kylo gets tagged, literally next thing Kylo meets Finn's lightsaber then flings it into the snow, then finishes Finn. That's it.
It's blatantly obvious that Abrams did a call-back to the ESB fight with Kylo vs Finn.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's blatantly obvious that Abrams did a call-back to the ESB fight with Kylo vs Finn.

Yes, thank you.

It's there to remind us that Kylo is just playin, just like Vader was. They were both like Ok, these guys aren't children, and they pissed me off, so I'm done.

Now you're genuinely attempting to ignore Canon and you've also completely glossed over the fact that when Finn fought his bestfriend he was using a weapon that he had no prior experience or training with. An impressive thing nonetheless given how far Canon has gone to establish that you're more likely to kill yourself trying to weild a lightsaber without Jedi reflexes.

Originally posted by AncientPower
An impressive thing nonetheless given how far Canon has gone to establish that you're more likely to kill yourself trying to weild a lightsaber without Jedi reflexes.

Is that something that New Canon has said?

Why is something about lightsabers or whatever being argued anyway? Snoke doesn't have anything relating to that.