Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The Combatants:



VERSUS



Rules:

- No amps.
- No BFRs.
- Both Bloodlusted.

ROUND ONE:

Lightsaber dueling only.



ROUND TWO:

Force only.



ROUND THREE:

All-out.



Which cancer of the Force triumphs over-all?

I'd appreciate genuine arguments.

Plagueis.

1. Plagueis blurb, you can't dismiss it out of hand because Chee said an author could make it subjective if they wanted to, there's no indication this one is.

2. Plagueis is similar to TPM Sidious < RotS Sidious while Darth Revan < Revan < Revan 2.0 < Revan 3.0 < Vitiate < RotS Sidious.

3. Unbalancing the Force feat.

4. Honestly better combat feats, vaporizing squads of soldiers with unamped TK.

The question was about Plagueis being the most powerful Sith until his time. Chee responded by dismissing the blurb as having a license to be subjective; essentially, that they can make claims that aren't fact. Secondly, the publishing company placed the blurb there, Luceno himself makes no such assertions and regularly muses that Plagueis may well be inferior to his predecessors from the Sith's own POV.

Also, he unbalanced the Force via meditation and with aid of an equally powerful Sith. Not exactly a feat you can credit him with as an indication of his raw power.

Besides that, carry on.

Plagueis wins Force, at the very least.

He was powerful enough to involuntarily emit a shockwave that shook the stars upon dying. Revan doesn't get that, nor scaling off of TPM Sidious.

Also,Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Honestly better combat feats, vaporizing squads of soldiers with unamped TK.

That was hyperbolic, Geistalt.

Better than what Revan gets; he didn't emit any shockwave.

Plagueis never emitted any shockwave; that was the POV of Sidious having an orgasm.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Better than what Revan gets; he didn't emit any shockwave.

He merged into one with Light Revan, Jedi don't die the same way as sith.
So you cannot apply that to him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Plagueis never emitted any shockwave; that was the POV of Sidious having an orgasm. I'm sure the posthumous TK temper tantrum was a hallucination, too.

The entire scene is Sidious percieving his death, which was on Coruscant. Y'know, where the Jedi Temple is. Which would've been like dropping a nuclear bomb if it wasn't hyperbolic.

Plagueis wins sabers via feats like training Palpatine and beating him in sparring matches for pure skill, punching through armor with his bare hands while in a horrendous condition and far before his prime for strength, and running so fast that droids have trouble perceiving him and general proximity to TPM Palpatine who has speedblitzed Maul for speed. Revan has no comparable feats in any category.

Plagueis stomps the Force round via feats like being able to touch the minds of every single living thing in the galaxy, causing global weather phenomena on Naboo with his power, meriting the attention and direct intervention of the Force itself due to his power, overpowering the will of the Force itself and unbalancing the galaxy to the dark side for overall power; being able to block lightsaber hits without even hand gestures and create fortress-sized Force Barriers via Banite scaling, rendering him virtually untouchable, for Force defence; being able to manipulate midi-chlorians and gain a godlike scope of abilities like command over life and death on his fingertips, infinite regeneration without even erecting active Force defences and so on for OP hax; etc. Plagueis is orders of magnitude beyond anyone before him.

Plagueis stomps all out via one-shotting Revan right off the batvwith his overwhelming power, or by swiftly and deftly outdueling him with superior skill, strength and speed.

Training Palpatine is no feat of skill.

Originally posted by Azronger


Plagueis stomps the Force round via feats like being able to touch the minds of every single living thing in the galaxy
Gonna need a quote for this.

Dark Revan.

I wonder how well this holds up to Ant's reply.

Didn't Dark Revan ragdoll the strike team against him on Yavin?

Originally posted by AncientPower
The question was about Plagueis being the most powerful Sith until his time. Chee responded by dismissing the blurb as having a license to be subjective; essentially, that they can make claims that aren't fact.

That's not at all what happened lol, firstly Chee didn't actually make any claim to the specific quote despite being asked about it but instead just briefly discussed the general canonicity of blurbs, secondly "license to be subjective" doesn't mean "complete b*llshit". You realize that authors also have the license to be subjective in the actual text itself too, right? That doesn't mean you can just dismiss every novel out of hand.



Uh, actually Plagueis makes those musings before he gets midichlorian manipulation and figures how to overcome his lack of innate sorcery ability, and then at the end of the book Sidious wonders whether the Force had ever been so strong in anyone but himself. No contradiction there.



Ahahaha ok well then we should apply this criteria consistently if you're going to do so now. In either case, Sith more powerful than Revan like Vitiate had plenty of time to meditate and plenty of help + nexuses but could never replicate that feat despite its obvious benefits.

Despite the fact that, the conditions for Vitiate/Revan weren't the same considering the Galaxy was already tipped into the dark, meaning their was not much point in causing an imbalancing Ritual which in Plageuis/Sidious's case the galaxy had spent the past millenium in lightness, and we all the know the force strives for balance, not to mention Plagueis had Sidious helping him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's not at all what happened lol, firstly Chee didn't actually make any claim to the specific quote despite being asked about it but instead just briefly discussed the general canonicity of blurbs, secondly "license to be subjective" doesn't mean "complete b*llshit". You realize that authors also have the license to be subjective in the actual text itself too, right? That doesn't mean you can just dismiss every novel out of hand.
Point is that Leland Chee did not endorse that blurb. Otherwise, he would have provided a clear answer.

Secondly; that blurb was planted by the publisher on the back cover of the original print of the novel. However, reprint of the same novel feature a different blurb on its back cover from the same publisher. Therefore, no consistency in such promotion. Nonetheless, context behind the hype of Darth Plagueis is his midichlorian manipulation talent.

Third; author of the novel did not bother to rank Darth Plagueis because this was not essential to his storytelling.

Objectively, there isn't a sound case for Darth Plagueis to be ranked above Vitiate, even at par.

Originally posted by Azronger
Plagueis wins sabers via feats like training Palpatine and beating him in sparring matches for pure skill
How is this an indication of superiority over Revan in actual combat?

Any well-trained Sith could instruct Palpatine in the art of lightsaber combat. Sparring matches are also training sessions and do not tell us much.

Originally posted by Azronger
punching through armor with his bare hands while in a horrendous condition and far before his prime for strength,
Darth Malgus TIER

Originally posted by Azronger
and running so fast that droids have trouble perceiving him and general proximity to TPM Palpatine who has speedblitzed Maul for speed. Revan has no comparable feats in any category.
A subjective notion.

Revan had no trouble in reacting to astonishingly fast Force-users such as Darth Marr.*

*Darth Marr could move so fast that even a well-trained Force-user found it virtually impossible to track his move. Droid be damned.

Revan's battle precognition is absolutely fantastic.

Originally posted by Azronger
Plagueis stomps the Force round via feats like
Oh please.

Originally posted by Azronger
being able to touch the minds of every single living thing in the galaxy,
Quote?

Originally posted by Azronger
causing global weather phenomena on Naboo with his power,
Story-enriching device; direct involvement not established.

Originally posted by Azronger
meriting the attention and direct intervention of the Force itself due to his power,
You need to elaborate this.

The Force merited attention towards Dark Revan as well.

Originally posted by Azronger
overpowering the will of the Force itself
He didn't.

Originally posted by Azronger
and unbalancing the galaxy to the dark side for overall power
With aid of Palpatine.

Originally posted by Azronger
being able to block lightsaber hits without even hand gestures
Example?

Originally posted by Azronger
and create fortress-sized Force Barriers via Banite scaling,
Wut?

Originally posted by Azronger
rendering him virtually untouchable, for Force defence;
Wut?

Originally posted by Azronger
being able to manipulate midi-chlorians and gain a godlike scope of abilities like command over life and death on his fingertips, infinite regeneration without even erecting active Force defences and so on for OP hax; etc. Plagueis is orders of magnitude beyond anyone before him.
Really? So how Palpatine killed him?

Originally posted by Azronger
Plagueis stomps all out via one-shotting Revan right off the batvwith his overwhelming power, or by swiftly and deftly outdueling him with superior skill, strength and speed.
Pure comedy.

Plagueis wins.

Originally posted by Stigma
Plagueis wins. He got surprise killed by Kylo Ren. He sucks.

Sorry LeG, not gonna ever debate you again. Decided that a while ago.

We'll rekindle the Plagueis > Valkorion movement soon so this individual Revan thread pointless anyway.

^^^

Cop-out.

Lol

Christ. Speed feats like Marr's are generic, as are Palpatine's and Plagueis'.

Characters have moved faster than security camera's can see or so quickly that other (more powerful) force users see them as blurs. Someone needs to make a blog about the ridiculous force speed arguments.

Palpatine can't really speedblitz many notable people. Neither can Plagueis.

Except when Palps speed blitzed the B-team.

Originally posted by samappo
Except when Palps speed blitzed the B-team.
Except he didn't, he took them by surprise. Tiin had his guard lowered and Fisto didn't get 'speed blitzed'. Kolar is just terrible.

It was a little bit of trickery and telepathic f.uckery.

Kit lasted two seconds, he got speed blitzed. Windu is described as not being able to react.

Originally posted by Not_a_sock
Christ. Speed feats like Marr's are generic, as are Palpatine's and Plagueis'.

Characters have moved faster than security camera's can see or so quickly that other (more powerful) force users see them as blurs. Someone needs to make a blog about the ridiculous force speed arguments.

Palpatine can't really speedblitz many notable people. Neither can Plagueis.

Palpatine speedblitzed Maul multiple times.

@DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Azronger
Palpatine speedblitzed Maul multiple times.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Point is that Leland Chee did not endorse that blurb. Otherwise, he would have provided a clear answer.

??? Chee doesn't endorse 99% of authorial statements. He didn't deny it either.



Bullsh*t. Where is it suggested that "most powerful sith lord who ever lived" means "good at midichlorian manipulation" and nothing more?

The fact that there were other publisher blurbs is irrelevant.



Plagueis in the book questions whether he's as powerful as the ancient sith, then he realizes he can figure out sorcery by sheer will, unbalances the Force, enhances his own midichlorian count...and suddenly he thinks he's more powerful than any sith before him. Then the blurb just happens to confirm it from a third person PoV. It's pretty clear to me that Plagueis > all prior sith, there are like three independent statements/implications in the text, lawl.



Nonsense. In addition to the blurb statement and Plagueis's own self-evaluation, he and Sidious posed a cosmological threat to the Force to an extent that Vitiate never did. Vitiate did not need the Jesus of the SW universe to defeat.

The publishing company's blurb's canonicity isn't in question, the attempt to use it as an objective canonical binding statement beyond any discussion is.

Vitiate had the capacity to end the galaxy and become a God. Nor is the imbalancing feat what you prop it up to be. Fvcking Traya could've fatally wounded the Force, nevermind aid in shifting its alignment.

Honestly, this desperate clinging to that feat is getting sad.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The publishing company's blurb's canonicity isn't in question, the attempt to use it as an objective canonical binding statement beyond any discussion is.


I don't think anyone here has done that. Rather, the blurb is just another piece of evidence that leads us to the same conclusion: Plagueis's own musings, the cosmic threat to the Force, powerscaling from Sidious, etc.



With a nexus + a thousand years of prep + a galactic war, sure. Plagueis just meditated for a month.



The Force disagrees. But let's break it down more substantively:

1. Tenebrous's master, who by Banite scaling is weaker than Tenebrous and Plagueis, pierces the galaxy wide light side nexus generated by the combined Jedi Order.

2. Plagueis and Sidious, both before their primes, knock the Force off balance with about a month of meditation. This is described as a cosmic shift in the Force.

3. Plagueis uses midichlorian manipulation to enhance his own Force potential.

4. Due to the above and Plagueis's attempt to create life, the Force births the literal Chosen One to defeat the two Sith - like, the most powerful being in Star Wars history.

5. On Plagueis's death, Sidious receives a massive power boost that further shifts the balance of the Force to the point where the orbits of celestial bodies are described as being altered.

Yeah, even if you don't think it's enough to prove Plagueis > Vitiate by itself, in combination with the blurb and Plagueis's own conclusion I think it's a pretty safe bet.



You're welcome to prove that she could actually have done it.



It's not "desperate", lol, it's like the catalyst for the central struggle in the Star Wars mythos. Plagueis and Sidious were literally cosmological threats at a level the Force had never seen before.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis just meditated for a month.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbryz0mxuMY&t=1m34s

In response to SW Legengs's criticism of sparring. A vast majority of the best duelists of the Jedi Order were spawned from just sparring. Yoda, Windu, Plo Koon, Qui-Gon etc. Not to mention the arguably best duelist in the mythos, Sidious, fought like three legit Saber duels in his whole life.

Originally posted by samappo
In response to SW Legengs's criticism of sparring. A vast majority of the best duelists of the Jedi Order were spawned from just sparring. Yoda, Windu, Plo Koon, Qui-Gon etc. Not to mention the arguably best duelist in the mythos, Sidious, fought like three legit Saber duels in his whole life.

Elm, thoughts on my post?

I know. My point is they likely inform each other.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I know. My point is they likely inform each other.

Eh, "most powerful sith lord" meaning "best at a particular ability" is a stretch when the informing context is buried in a separate piece of text, and the straightforward interpretation happens to match what Plagueis speculated about himself in the book.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think anyone here has done that. Rather, the blurb is just another piece of evidence that leads us to the same conclusion: Plagueis's own musings, the cosmic threat to the Force, powerscaling from Sidious, etc.

The entire Sheev brigade has done it for years.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
With a nexus.

A nexus? He created the nexus within the Dark Temple as a side effect of his experiments. He's hardly bound to it or reliant upon it:



Oricon was created via the power of the Dread Masters, Oricon being immeasurably strong with the dark side. Yet Tenebrae dwarfed them:



Originally posted by The Ellimist
a thousand years of prep.

He planned, he didn't actually prepare the ritual itself for millennia.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
a galactic war, sure.

The HoT prevented all of the individual attempts by the Emperor's agents to cause mass death, yet Tol Braga could've single-handedly triggered the Dark Ritual with his single act of turning Corellia's orbital cannons on a portion of a city. Hall Hood later confirms that any one single act of destruction was enough. Tenebrae was just smart enough to not put all of his eggs in a single basket.




Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis just meditated for a month.

Plagueis had Sidious, so half of the feat can be credited to him.

But beyond that, you've failed to recognised a few extremely important things:

1.Tenebrae expended so much personal energy enacting the ritual that he was weak enough for the HoT to defeat him.



2.He'd just been weakened by his battle with Sel-Makor and the following death of his Voss host prior to all of this.



3.He was also simultaneously suppressing Vaylin's immense powers and due to his death at the hands of the HoT, that control was lost.



4.When Revan returns and plans to resurrect Tenebrae, Force users across the galaxy are given visions of him rendering the galaxy lifeless.

5.Tenebrae grows massively more powerful when he doom waves Ziost as a spirit, so that ought to make up for it.



6.It is said that the only reason he doesn't destroy the galaxy after is because he's achieved such power that he no longer fears death. More than that, Zakuul thrived in his absence where the Empire failed. He switches goals from annihilation to a supreme galactic civilisation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The Force disagrees. But let's break it down more substantively:

I'm glad you asked.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Tenebrous's master, who by Banite scaling is weaker than Tenebrous and Plagueis, pierces the galaxy wide light side nexus generated by the combined Jedi Order.

Er, no. He brings the dark side of the Force back to prominence in the Force where it had been absent beforehand due to the destruction of the Sith.



Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. Plagueis and Sidious, both before their primes, knock the Force off balance with about a month of meditation. This is described as a cosmic shift in the Force.

Very impressive stuff. Similar themes are made clear regarding the Emperor's story. Difference being that instead of imbalancing the Force, the Emperor threatens all life in the galaxy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. Plagueis uses midichlorian manipulation to enhance his own Force potential.

Great stuff, something he achieves after the aforementioned feat. Valkorion on the other hand simply drains planets with millions of Sith.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Due to the above and Plagueis's attempt to create life, the Force births the literal Chosen One to defeat the two Sith - like, the most powerful being in Star Wars history.

Yeah, this used to be the case. However as soon as Mortis came into the picture, this whole claim gets very questionable very quickly.



In fact, the Son was already getting more powerful by this point:



The Son is a supreme manifestation of the dark side of the Force, his effect on the balance of the Force would be vastly greater. It seems the Plagueis novel isn't as consequential as you believed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
5. On Plagueis's death, Sidious receives a massive power boost that further shifts the balance of the Force to the point where the orbits of celestial bodies are described as being altered.

Jesus Christ, Ell. The latter is nothing more than hyperbole.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, even if you don't think it's enough to prove Plagueis > Vitiate by itself, in combination with the blurb and Plagueis's own conclusion I think it's a pretty safe bet.

You may certainly think that.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're welcome to prove that she could actually have done it.

The proof is already there in what Malachor V and its echoes had done. Nihilus being nothing more than one of those echoes. Traya used Meetra's ability to form bonds across the planets as a means to cause an even larger Wound upon Meetra's death. It was either Meetra kills her and proves to Traya that she's wrong or a cascading Wound eventually fvcks up everything.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not "desperate", lol, it's like the catalyst for the central struggle in the Star Wars mythos. Plagueis and Sidious were literally cosmological threats at a level the Force had never seen before.

Nothing you just said is true.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The entire Sheev brigade has done it for years.


No...? It's a very compelling subset of a very compelling collection of evidence. It means that the burden of proof shifts to you to demonstrate that it's clearly wrong, not to say that it *might* be. It means that if my interpretation of Plagueis's feats lean towards the blurb statement but yours don't, mine is probably right.




How does that prove that the Dark Temple or DK as a whole wasn't amping him? Whether he contributed to its creation is irrelevant. Plagueis and Sidious, meanwhile, did their cosmic feats under the noses of the power of the combined Jedi Order. They were doing the opposite in that they were handicapped!

Sidious and Plagueis wrestled with the Force using their own power, while Vitiate used rituals and sorcery and drained from other beings while amping himself with nexuses. And yet the duo's feat is still more cosmically dangerous, because the Force birthed the f*cking Chosen One to stop them. The Force did not view Vitiate as a comparable threat.



So what?



He researched and studied how to do it, obviously, Plagueis and Sidious figured this out in a few decades.



lolol so you're saying that the HoT was preventing every death in the galaxy caused from a galactic war? OK then.

If that were the case, Vitiate could've just genocided a planet and then done the ritual without ever even invading the Republic.



Sure, while Vitiate had a powerful nexus, rituals and a thousand years of prep.



So?



I mean if we want to play this game I could say Plagueis and Sidious were masking themselves from the Jedi while the OT Palpatine has every feat done in the context of constantly dominating the entire imperial military.



Ok?



Doesn't really say "massively more powerful", AP.



Lol except then he admits to the Outlander he actually wants to do it anyway.



Yeah, that's what I said. The Jedi had cast a light-side nexus across the galaxy, and he pierced it.



You can try to downplay this all you want by giving it innocuous labels but every in and out of universe source gives it an enormous amount of gravitas, to the point where Space Jesus was needed to stop them.



Yes, Plagueis does shit with his own ability and raw power while Valkorion uses nexuses, rituals and planetary populations.



No, it's confirmed to be a response to Plagueis and Sidious. (Ant, can you give the source?) And have you considered that the Son may be growing stronger because of Sidious and Plagueis? They described their result as knocking some entity off their throne, it sounds really Mortis-like...

It's pretty unlikely that the Chosen One happens to be born when Sidious and Plagueis do their meddling and that the prophecy is fulfilled on the death of Palpatine, even though the Son had already perished.



I dunno, the statement is very specific and descriptive, and belabored several times. Even if we take it to be some bizarrely repeated hyperbole, the intent is pretty clear - to try to downplay their dominance as just some "unbalancing" is silly.



?? That proves nothing.



Well you can keep

Good lord, I can't be bothered with this many strawmans. I'll reply when I can be bothered to explain the basic logic you keep missing.

I'd advice to stop responding to APtard, Ell. You'll never get anywhere

Advise* You troglodyte.

Darth Plagueis will stomp Revan with mere thought.