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Peak power Kefla. Hit gets killing techs.

Who wins?

In the ToP rules, definitely Kefla. With Hit killing techniques, still Kefla. She was awesomely powerful.

Hit easily dodges Kefla's barrages with time skip and stuff. I don't see Kefla being strategic enough to overcome Hit's techniques, at least not enough to soundly beat him, IMO.

Kefla was absurdly strong, even scratching a stronger UI Goku than the one Jiren wasn't landing on. She also tends to have an adjusting period when fighting, which means she eats Hits one shot kill technique to the heart.

Kefla, and easily.

She was implied to be even stronger than the first UI Goku, who was on par with suppressed Jiren, who in turn was oneshotting SSJB KKx20 with a glare. She's waaaaaay stronger than Hit.

Hit temporarily paralyzed Jiren with his final attack strategy. If Jiren can be immobilized by that (even if only for a minute/brief time), no way would Kefla be immune to Hit's paralysis. If he freezes her, it's probably over, despite how powerful she is.

The issue is that Kefla is even more powerful than the suppressed Jiren that fought Goku and Hit.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Hit easily dodges Kefla's barrages with time skip and stuff. I don't see Kefla being strategic enough to overcome Hit's techniques, at least not enough to soundly beat him, IMO. I completely agree, tbh. Especially since we've never even seen what Hit can do when he's going all-out. In every fight we've seen him in thus far, he's had to significantly hold back(even against Jiren.) On that note, I also don't think that Kefla was in any way implied to be > the suppressed Jiren that UI Goku fought... But more importantly, we don't know how much power Jiren exerted to break free of Hit's time-cage(he could have been using far more power than he did against Goku, for all we know.)

Anywho, I do think the time-cage would pwn Kefla, but I don't think Hit would need to go that far in all honesty... I believe his killing techniques + evolved time-skip would be enough. /shrug

Piccolo theorizes that Kefla "surpassed Goku's earlier level" (in context this seems to be referring to Goku when he first went UI). Kefla going all-out was also able to hit an advanced UI Goku, something suppressed Jiren couldn't do to regular UI Goku.

Another reason to believe that Kefla has reached such a level is that her regular LSSJ form rivals the spirit bomb that's > SSJB KKx20...and I believe you yourself said that LSSJ2 is probably much more than a 2x multiplier to LSSJ1.

We have no knowledge of Hit's killing techniques other than what he used against SSJB Goku...which Goku handled just fine. SSJB Goku is a complete and utter microbe to a serious LSSJ Kefla, much less LSSJ2 FP Kefla.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Piccolo theorizes that Kefla "surpassed Goku's earlier level" (in context this seems to be referring to Goku when he first went UI). Kefla going all-out was also able to hit an advanced UI Goku, something suppressed Jiren couldn't do to regular UI Goku.

Another reason to believe that Kefla has reached such a level is that her regular LSSJ form rivals the spirit bomb that's > SSJB KKx20...and I believe you yourself said that LSSJ2 is probably much more than a 2x multiplier to LSSJ1.

We have no knowledge of Hit's killing techniques other than what he used against SSJB Goku...which Goku handled just fine. SSJB Goku is a complete and utter microbe to a serious LSSJ Kefla, much less LSSJ2 FP Kefla. Okay, but how does any of this equate to Kefla being more powerful than Jiren was when he fought Goku?

Jiren handled the Genki Dama with a f*cking eye-blink. He easily dodged UI Goku's initial salvo. He matched UI Goku in every conceivable way. Etc.

Conversely, Kefla was utterly outclassed by UI Goku, and therefore, was well below the aforementioned Jiren, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
I completely agree, tbh. Especially since we've never even seen what Hit can do when he's going all-out. In every fight we've seen him in thus far, he's had to significantly hold back(even against Jiren.) On that note, I also don't think that Kefla was in any way implied to be > the suppressed Jiren that UI Goku fought... But more importantly, we don't know how much power Jiren exerted to break free of Hit's time-cage(he could have been using far more power than he did against Goku, for all we know.)

Anywho, I do think the time-cage would pwn Kefla, but I don't think Hit would need to go that far in all honesty... I believe his killing techniques + evolved time-skip would be enough. /shrug

He went all out against Goku during their second fight.

Originally posted by carver9
He went all out against Goku during their second fight. In Round 1 of their rematch? Sure. He literally killed a prepared SSB Goku with one casual move(Goku had to be resuscitated by Piccolo afterward.)
https://i.imgur.com/dPEtEdX.gif


In Round 2 of their rematch, however, Hit was no longer trying to 'kill' Goku, imo... Not really. That's why Vados and Champa noted that he was enjoying the fight too much, and not acting in the capacity of a true assassin:

http://i.imgur.com/Hk55jO9m.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pFE7G89m.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UCCOkj6m.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u5nAN9Xm.jpg

So could Hit even hurt Kefla?

He claimed it doesn't matter how tough you are, if he's aiming for vulnerable points.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to Jiren.

With killing techniques? Absolutely.

Why doesn't it apply to Jiren? Hit couldn't use killing techniques against him, or he would have violated the ToP's rules... The best he could do in that setting was try to incapacitate/freeze Jiren with a time-cage.

Just a quick clarification: Goku revived himself with his own blast falling from the sky.

Originally posted by Galan007
With killing techniques? Absolutely.

Why doesn't it apply to Jiren? Hit couldn't use killing techniques against him, or he would have violated the ToP's rules... The best he could do in that setting was try to incapacitate/freeze Jiren with a time-cage.

Hmm..

So if Hit was out to asassinate him, and could "hax" (As the kids say, and whatever it means) him long enough to get off an attack, do you think it would take effect, the same way it did against Goku?

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Just a quick clarification: Goku revived himself with his own blast falling from the sky.

Which makes no sense.

Blasts generally don't react to gravity, nor are they self guiding (every example of moving attacks involves someone actively "steering" them.

Originally posted by cdtm
Which makes no sense.

Blasts generally don't react to gravity, nor are they self guiding (every example of moving attacks involves someone actively "steering" them.

Well, what to say: Goku realized he was dying and he thus purposefully shot that blast with that goal (i.e. to revive himself) in mind. It's very clear from the scene.

And he's still out of it. There's never, ever been a scene where a blast is programmed to act independently. Not from Freeza's discs, not from Goku and Krillin maneuvering Kamehameha's. There has always been an active mind behind those attacks.

Goku was most definitely out of it when Hit's attack struck.

Had hit been able to use his full range of abilities, that shot he landed on Jiren would have been a goku killer to the heart.

Would it have worked? Probably not, because it's Jiren and things don't work on him for whatever reason, but still would have been better than to be left wondering.

Originally posted by Galan007
Okay, but how does any of this equate to Kefla being more powerful than Jiren was when he fought Goku?

Jiren handled the Genki Dama with a f*cking eye-blink. He easily dodged UI Goku's initial salvo. He matched UI Goku in every conceivable way. Etc.

Conversely, Kefla was utterly outclassed by UI Goku, and therefore, was well below the aforementioned Jiren, imo.

He didn't easily dodge UI Goku's initial salvo. Hell, within the first few blows, Jiren's face was scuffed.

They stalemate for a while, but Goku then knees him in the stomach and knocks him to the ground with an off-the-cuff kamehameha.

Yes, Jiren did better against UI Goku than Kefla did, but Goku was explicitly more powerful the second time he used UI than the first time. This is why Piccolo speculates that Kefla surpassed the UI Goku that fought Jiren.

Essentially, 2nd UI Goku > FP Kefla > First UI Goku ~ Suppressed Jiren.

Regardless, there's at least enough controversy here that Hit doesn't stand a chance in hell against someone as powerful as FP Kefla.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He didn't easily dodge UI Goku's initial salvo. Hell, within the first few blows, Jiren's face was scuffed.

They stalemate for a while, but Goku then knees him in the stomach and knocks him to the ground with an off-the-cuff kamehameha.

Yes, Jiren did better against UI Goku than Kefla did, but Goku was explicitly more powerful the second time he used UI than the first time. This is why Piccolo speculates that Kefla surpassed the UI Goku that fought Jiren. Jiren didn't just do 'better' against UI Goku than Kefla... He did much, MUCH better, and matched Goku in every conceivable way. Kefla, however, amounted to little more than a glorified punching bag for UI Goku(whose stamina was massively depleted at the time, to boot.)

Meh, Piccolo says it "MIGHT even surpass earlier level." "Might" implies that even IF UI Goku(Mk. II) was more powerful than UI Goku(Mk. I), the difference was marginal, at best. History tells us that if the difference was significant, Piccolo would have said something like "far" more powerful or whathaveyou.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Essentially, 2nd UI Goku > FP Kefla > First UI Goku ~ Suppressed Jiren. Why on earth would you EVER believe that Kefla was > UI Goku(Mk. I)..? Absolutely NOTHING Kefla did implies that she could have even remotely contended with(much less beaten) the UI Goku who fought Jiren... Literally nothing.

Lets be honest: ANY 'version' of UI Goku would've f*cking throttled her, easily.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Regardless, there's at least enough controversy here that Hit doesn't stand a chance in hell against someone as powerful as FP Kefla. I disagree. I honestly do not believe that Kefla is a good enough fighter to read and counter Hit's temporal abilities, and I especially don't see her standing up to his killing techniques. Raw power isn't everything.

Piccolo didn't say UI MK. II surpassed UI MK I. Piccolo said LSSJ2 Kefla surpassed UI MK. I. So yeah, Goku definitely improved quite a bit the 2nd time around.

Meh, Piccolo could have just as easily been referencing SSB Goku, if you want to go that route with it -- "earlier level" is vague AF in that context. Regardless, Piccolo's bit of dialogue there is rather confusing either way you slice it.

Goku was able to hone/sharpen/fine-tune UI in some areas, but certainly not in others... And we'll see him refine UI every time he accesses it(until he attains complete mastery, of course.)

That said, UI Goku(Mk. I) would still wipe his ass with LSSJ2 Kefla. It would honestly be a one-sided stomp.

It referring to SSB Goku makes absolutely no sense. The dialogue isn't confusing.

LSSJ Kefla already rivalled the power of the spirit bomb, which poops on the power of SSJB. Kefla then goes LSSJ2. The only power Goku ever previously attained that would make sense is the first time he used UI, especially given that Goku was in UI Mk II when Piccolo made the statement. Piccolo is essentially saying Kefla surpassed Son's earlier level in UI by going LSSJ2. It being SSJB absolutely makes no sense.

You might have a point with LSSJ2, which she only went to when Goku went UI, but before that it was basically implied that Blue form Goku was > Kefla aside from his depleted stamina.

Nah.

It's explicitly stated that regular SSJ Kefla ~ the Spirit Bomb that was >/>> SSJB KKx20 in terms of power. Clearly she was holding back against Goku.

If you go back and rewatch ep. 115, you will find that SSB Goku /w/ a standard KK(x2) was ~/> LSSJ Kefla(in fact, a single blow from Goku was capable of "really hurting" her)... And it was reiterated numerous times that Goku's stamina was almost entirely depleted during that fight, which means he wasn't operating anywhere near his peak. Despite this, he was still no less than equal to her.

*And there was absolutely NO reason to believe Kefla was holding back against Goku, btw -- quite the contrary, actually.


Suffice to say, using the Genki Dama as a measuring stick doesn't work here, otherwise the algorithm would look like this:

A grossly depleted SSB Goku /w/ KKx2 ~ LSSJ Kefla ~ ToP Genki Dama > a nearly full-power SSB Goku /w/ KKx20.

...And I shouldn't have to explain why that makes no sense whatsoever.


So from THAT standpoint, it is entirely logical to assume that Piccolo was referring to LSSJ2 Kefla having surpassed SSB Goku /w/ KK -- that was technically/literally Goku's "earlier level", after all. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
If you go back and rewatch ep. 115, you will find that SSB Goku /w/ a standard KK(x2) was ~/> LSSJ Kefla(in fact, a single blow from Goku was capable of "really hurting" her)... And it was reiterated numerous times that Goku's stamina was almost entirely depleted during that fight, which means he wasn't operating anywhere near his peak. Despite this, he was still no less than equal to her.

*And there was absolutely NO reason to believe Kefla was holding back against Goku, btw -- quite the contrary, actually.


Suffice to say, using the Genki Dama as a measuring stick doesn't work here, otherwise the algorithm would look like this:

A grossly depleted SSB Goku /w/ KKx2 ~ LSSJ Kefla ~ ToP Genki Dama > a nearly full-power SSB Goku /w/ KKx20.

...And I shouldn't have to explain why that makes no sense whatsoever.


So from THAT standpoint, it is entirely logical to assume that Piccolo was referring to LSSJ2 Kefla having surpassed SSB Goku /w/ KK -- that was technically/literally Goku's "earlier level", after all. /shrug Well said!

Hit can win if he goes for the killing blow right from the start and doesnt mess around otherwise he gets raped.

Doesn't make sense. Frieza is evil and the only thing it did was knock the wind out of him. Grand Priest put a shield around him and Zeno because of this attack. Jiren withstanding it is a beastly of a showing. Sorry!!!

It didn't kill Frieza because there wasn't enough life left on Namek for the Genki Dama to absorb energy from, whereas it killed Kid Buu when there was enough energy... Context my friend, context.

My point was Jiren isn't evil, thus the spirit bomb wouldn't have effect on him no matter what he did.

Good point, actually.

I just can't help but think that Toei might have overlooked that fact. Otherwise why even have Goku use the Genki Dama at all..? mmm

Originally posted by Galan007
Good point, actually.

I just can't help but think that Toei might have overlooked that fact. Otherwise why even have Goku use the Genki Dama at all..? mmm

Exactly. I am sure he overlooked that and Genki Dama in that episode was meant as a brute force, a brute force that Jiren overcame because he had even greater power so that we can get a clue of how powerful he is.