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WHO IS THE #4 MOST POWERFUL CHARACTER?

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RANKINGS:

1.) Luke Skywalker
2.) Palpatine
3.) Anakin Skywalker

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BACKGROUND AND RULES: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t649092.html.

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REMINDER: All characters are strictly in their Legends incarnation and are at peak combative (not potential) capabilities under normal conditions (no external amplifies or other temporary boosts are to be considered). All characters are at peak mental mindset while maintaining an accurate portrayal of their mindset and beliefs (morals on). Lightsaber skill and related abilities (such as physical strength, speed, etc.) is to be considered if relevant.

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ADDITIONAL NOTICE #1: "Morals on" means that characters are fighting as they would be portrayed within the Star Wars universe given the conditions listed above. The intent is to not weaken the characters of any power, but rather for light-side characters to stay light-side characters. Thus, Luke Skywalker is not going to embrace the dark-side and use Force lightning or Force drain. Instead, Luke will bring all his powers to bear given the constraints of his ideology.

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ADDITIONAL NOTICE #2: UnuThul will be considered with the amplified abilities he receives from the Killiks. Yoda is as demonstrated in Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith.

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BANNED CHARACTERS: Ones of Mortis, Abeloth, Bedlam Spirits, Force Demons, Terror from Beyond, Waru, Mother Talzin, Gethzerion, Onimi, Irek Ismaren, Sarasu Taalon, World Razer, Sekot, Yuuzhan'tar, and other exotic entities.

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VOTE!

My vote goes with Valkorion.

Yoda

Yoda.

Yoda voter here.

Yoda.

Originally posted by JKBart
Yoda voter here.



People forget that saber skills matter too.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nvm
?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
?

he's now yoda team

Valkorion

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
? bart did an exorcism

Valkorion.

But hey, the PT brigade has more aids-I mean members- than the rest of the forum put together so this list is literally just going to be PT wank no matter what you do.

No need to be upset.

Oh please.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yoda.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yoda.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yoda.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh please.

Yeah we are all wankers, only you are unbiased and always right

Given Valkorion has undeniably greater feats.

UnuThul.

Yoda easy

Wait, Ant, why ban TFB but not Revan? Revan's confirmed to be the most powerful operation boss in the game.

https://media.giphy.com/media/iyMWq8tPfNeiA/giphy.gif

God bless you, AP. Can you link me to the cantina chat?

The Terror from Beyond isn't Force-sensitive.

edit: Revan > Dread Masters > Terror from Beyond

That's why I didn't include him, but the above quote indicates Revan's more powerful than the Dread or Soa.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Valkorion.

But hey, the PT brigade has more aids-I mean members- than the rest of the forum put together so this list is literally just going to be PT wank no matter what you do. My list is the only list that matters as far as I'm concerned.

Valky BTW! Zero question.

lul, the most difficult boss were the dread guards

Yoda.

The little green friend.

Valkorion

This also sort of indicates, Split Revan was within Vitiate's League, though on the lower end. Damn a fully merged Revan might of given Pre Ziost vitiate a good fight.

Anyway Valkorian.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
This also sort of indicates, Split Revan was within Vitiate's League, though on the lower end. Damn a fully merged Revan might of given Pre Ziost vitiate a good fight.

That quote was a year before SOR came out...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That quote was a year before SOR came out...
Ah.

Yoda.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
No need to be upset.

Originally posted by ILS
Yoda easy

Originally posted by The Ellimist
UnuThul.

Stop wasting ur votes.

1. Luke
2. Palpatine
3. Anakin
4. Yoda

looks better than

1. Luke
2. Palpatine
3. Anakin
4. Valkorion

imo

so i'm going with yoda

Wait didn't Yoda not now resist force drain, meaning Nihilus could gimp him?

Valkorion

Valkorion

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Luke
2. Palpatine
3. Anakin
4. Yoda

looks better than

1. Luke
2. Palpatine
3. Anakin
4. Valkorion

imo

so i'm going with yoda i think valk would look very good in 10.

Despite the fact Valk's feats are easily superior. Mkay.

Originally posted by AncientPower
No chance Valk doesn't take 4. This must be hard for you.

Not as hard as your cocks when a PT character gets put on there.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
This must be hard for you.

Breaking news: discovery of the mysterious and unprecedented deposit of salt in this thread has baffled geologists across the globe.

Holy ****

What is the argument for Valk defending against Yoda's lightsaber btw

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Holy ****

What is the argument for Valk defending against Yoda's lightsaber btw

He can easily block lightsabers with his barrier, plus he can spam teleport and time stop.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He can easily block lightsabers with his barrier

Surely that's dependent on the opponent he faces. Yoda being far stronger than Arcann, and having exhibited greater combat speed than Valkorion, kind of puts this sort of defence into question.



I always hear this.

Do we have a basis for assuming he can do this? These aren't really finger-flick powers. Teleportation especially. On top of that, virtually all known teleporters have lost fights in SW because they were just worse than their opponents, and teleportation didn't save them. Including every single one from TOR (except KotFE Satele Shan because to my knowledge you don't actually get to fight her, though she implies that she'd lose in a fight regardless).

Valkorion himself states "time has not stopped", though. Do we have a good reason to ignore that and assume that he can reliably pull it out to just circumvent any attack? As far as I know it's only been used for conversational effect, not for actually making a difference in combat. I'm willing to see evidence to the contrary. Based on the situations we see it seems abundantly clear to me that Valkorion can't actually stop time anyway, since I don't believe he's managed to actually solve any of the crises in which he's purportedly "frozen time", only given the Outlander a chance to have conversation with him and discuss their options.

And again if Yoda can get him before he can enact these powers they're useless anyway.

No proof of reasonable combat applicability for any of them, and no hard evidence that Valk can even stop time in the first place.

Not that it matters, Valk is a sub-Plagueis hack who will lose whatever he tries.

Yep, I still don't understand the hysteria surrounding teleportation. It was there for Revan, the Dread Masters etc. as well.

I don't hear anyone saying An'ya Kuro suddenly gets a free pass versus Yoda, though. Or anyone denying that she lost to Vader in spite of her teleporting powers.

Maybe if she became some TOR operation boss who could "threaten the galaxy" if she was released but ends up losing to the main cast by having a bowling pin dropped on her head then they'll afford her the same privilege.

The First Son of the Emperor was capable of casually teleporting around repeatedly in a cutscene whilst repeatedly attacking the Barsen'thor. His power is merely a small fraction of Vitiate's, not to mention Valkorion's.

When Valkorion boost the Outlander's perceptions during earlier points in KOTFE he's a lot less powerful than he is in KOTET Ch.9 after draining Vaylin's essence upon her death. There's also a difference between those instances. In the Ch.9 iteration, not only is everything completely frozen, but Valkorion's capable of attacking the Outlander outright. Not something he can do simultaneously when he death waves the Zakuul knights or blasts Arcann, he has to exit his time freeze on those instances. Not in Ch.9. There's a clear difference.

Furthermore, if you notice, when he first appears he does the whole time effect thing in Outlander's mind but when Arcann and Senya react, he freezes time again. But this time in real time.

@Sel - Damn quote button isn't working, and that's such a small post too.

Appreciated. Sounds like the teary TORies won't ever be fun, though. What a shame.

Special characters f-uck up the quoting not the length of the post.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The First Son of the Emperor was capable of casually teleporting around repeatedly in a cutscene whilst repeatedly attacking the Barsen'thor. His power is merely a small fraction of Vitiate's, not to mention Valkorion's.

When Valkorion boost the Outlander's perceptions during earlier points in KOTFE he's a lot less powerful than he is in KOTET Ch.9 after draining Vaylin's essence upon her death. There's also a difference between those instances. In the Ch.9 iteration, not only is everything completely frozen, but Valkorion's capable of attacking the Outlander outright. Not something he can do simultaneously when he death waves the Zakuul knights or blasts Arcann, he has to exit his time freeze on those instances. Not in Ch.9. There's a clear difference.

1. The First Son still lost that fight, though. And he only teleported a few metres, something which I doubt will be a significant nuisance in any fight between high-level Force users.

2. Is he still with the Outlander at that point though? If he is, then that doesn't apply to Yoda for obvious reasons. To my knowledge, it's always been the Outlander's perception of time that Valkorion affected, not anybody else's.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Special characters f-uck up the quoting not the length of the post.

In Sel's post? There's about as many special characters as there've been incidents of Valkorion actually stopping time.

I edited. He does it twice in succession but the second time isn't in Outlander's mind.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Surely that's dependent on the opponent he faces. Yoda being far stronger than Arcann, and having exhibited greater combat speed than Valkorion, kind of puts this sort of defence into question.



I always hear this.

Do we have a basis for assuming he can do this? These aren't really finger-flick powers. Teleportation especially. Virtually all known teleporters have lost fights in SW because they were just worse than their opponents, and teleportation didn't save them.

Valkorion himself states "time has not stopped", though. Do we have a good reason to ignore that and assume that he can reliably pull it out to just circumvent any attack? As far as I know it's only been used for conversational effect, not for actually making a difference in combat. I'm willing to see evidence to the contrary.

And again if Yoda can get him before he can enact these powers they're useless anyway.

Even if we think he's far stronger than Arcann, Yoda's fighting style doesn't rely on power since he's usually airborne when attacking. He'd need to be attacking his ankles to actually have leverage on his attacks. And Valkorion was casually blocking Arcann anyway, Yoda shouldn't be that much of an issue. Plus Yoda's speed isn't too much for Valkorion to handle. He should be as fast or faster than Revan who is well within the range of handling Yoda's speed and Valkorion can supplement his speed with his teleportation and slowed time perception. If Yoda pressures his barrier he can teleport away. If Yoda is too fast he can slow time.

They aren't ones that require much effort either. Teleportation can be done instantly with no apparent strain and so too for Valkorions time stop ability. He can do it instantly even in the midst of lightsaber swings and shows no problem with maintaining it for long periods.

That's pedantic. I was just using the term time stop because its easier to say than "his ability to slow his perception of time to a crawl such that even powerful force users are frozen statues". Valkorion "stopped time" on the midst of combat most of the time. He did it in the middle of combat against Arcann, Heskal and in the middle of Lana getting attacked. All right in the middle of attacks. In fact with Heskal the Outlander was able to move in time stop, suggesting the ability is even more powerful than just perception manipulation. And if you accept Valkorions power you attack Heskal still in time stop.

Qpn98AHjSYk

20.30

Between those 3 abilities Yoda has no hope of reaching Valkorion with his blade. He can only hope to win a Force contest in which he's hopeless outmatched.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I edited. He does it twice in succession but the second time isn't in Outlander's mind.

Where? Do you have a link to the instance?

https://youtu.be/hpcV7IHUrIs

He first appears normally, and has a conversation with the Outlander. Then when they react he freezes them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if we think he's far stronger than Arcann, Yoda's fighting style doesn't rely on power since he's usually airborne when attacking. He'd need to be attacking his ankles to actually have leverage on his attacks. And Valkorion was casually blocking Arcann anyway, Yoda shouldn't be that much of an issue. Plus Yoda's speed isn't too much for Valkorion to handle. He should be as fast or faster than Revan who is well within the range of handling Yoda's speed and Valkorion can supplement his speed with his teleportation and slowed time perception. If Yoda pressures his barrier he can teleport away. If Yoda is too fast he can slow time.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The force of Yoda's blows have made Dooku buckle, and the Count's fought off some pretty strong adversaries.

Case for Revan being "well within" Yoda's speed? I'm not sure what you define that as.



Once again, I'm skeptical of teleportation because it just hasn't made a difference in the vast majority of SW fights where it's been in play. Normally teleportation doesn't seem to be straining (see Jadus, An'ya Kuro, etc), yet characters clearly appear to have limited applications of it, especially in a fight. I don't see why it's an exception here. History literally shows us that it's not a get out of jail free card.

As for "in the midst of lightsaber swings", I have no idea why you think that's impressive. That's against opponents far slower than Yoda. If I swung a baseball bat slowly enough, I'm sure you could take the rubbish bin out and back before I finished swinging. It's all relative. I'd like to see him doing it in the midst of Yoda's swings.



The extra fluff about frozen statues is irrelevant. Obviously if you slow down someone's perception of time people are going to look slow/motionless to you.

Regardless, it seems that unless Yoda is hosting Valkorion's spirit, his perceptions of time won't be affected (surely someone with more power than Valkorion would be exempt from it in the same way as with any other Force power, too).

As for Heskal, what do you mean? How is that different from DS you attacking Arcann after accepting Valkorion's power? It just means the entire conversation with Valkorion takes place in an instant.

If his powers were anything like what you suggest, he'd have just frozen time and killed both Arcann and the Outlander together in Chapter 1. Surely he wouldn't even need to have the Outlander around or indulge Arcann's many swings?

Why would Valkorion slow Yoda's perceptions, lol. He'd slow his own in order to properly react to the attack.

Also I posted the Heskal video. You attack him in time stop without him moving a muscle.

As Yoda is ~Anakin, and can better deal with Valk's TP, Yoda wins, yeah.'

And as this vote should make obvious, a Yoda vs Anakin run off would have generated better discussion/debate.

Anyway, I eagerly anticipate Mace's arrival next round.

Originally posted by AncientPower
https://youtu.be/hpcV7IHUrIs

He first appears normally, and has a conversation with the Outlander. Then when they react he freezes them.

I don't see it anywhere and I'm eight minutes in. Where's it supposed to be?

Originally posted by SunRazer
In Sel's post? There's about as many special characters as there've been incidents of Valkorion actually stopping time.

She used a f-ucked up apostrophe.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Despite the fact Valk's feats are easily superior. Mkay.
What does Valk have that's easily superior to Plagy telepathically reaching out to every being in the galaxy?

Once you've answered that, we get to TPM palps, and once you've dealt with that we'll consider Valk vs Yoda.

Nova, stop wasting your time on AP, Nephtard and that Nadd guy

Yeah I don't see the big deal about teleportation when you can already move around the battlefield under a second with force speed.

Teleporting hastens the process of walking into someone's lightsaber Zolt. Saves a bit of time for the inevitable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would Valkorion slow Yoda's perceptions, lol. He'd slow his own in order to properly react to the attack.

Every Force user already sees things in slow motion relative to their own combat speed, lol. There's no external difference when Valkorion uses his power. Hence I'm of the belief that he won't even attempt to use it in combat, as he knows it's useless here.

Based on precedent, Valkorion's ability to affect perceptions is purely for exchanging thoughts with his host, not external attacks. There's no difference.



Not really. You accept Valkorion's power without time changing. By the time there's an actual attack, time has gone back to normal.

Which is natural for something that doesn't actually affect time.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
What does Valk have that's easily superior to Plagy telepathically reaching out to every being in the galaxy?

Once you've answered that, we get to TPM palps, and once you've dealt with that we'll consider Valk vs Yoda.

Plagueis tried and failed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't see it anywhere and I'm eight minutes in. Where's it supposed to be?

20.40

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
She used a f-ucked up apostrophe.

Ah, right.

Originally posted by Nephthys
20.40

That's on your video, which I've just looked at. AP's one doesn't even go up to twenty minutes.

Anyway, I watched all of AP's video and I didn't see it once. He's affecting his host's psyche, that's it. Completely useless in an external battle.

It's late now. Gotta be off, but it's been good knowing that Valkorion's "time stoppage" won't ever be used in combat, as it's not even a combat power. lol

Originally posted by SunRazer
I have no idea what you're talking about. The force of Yoda's blows have made Dooku buckle, and the Count's fought off some pretty strong adversaries.

Case for Revan being "well within" Yoda's speed? I'm not sure what you define that as.

If Yoda's in midair he won't be able to properly put pressure on Valkorions barrier since he won't have anything to press back against and it'll do little. Also Arcann's overpowered people like the Wrath who's immensely strong.

Revan's had extensive fights against groups of extremely fast individuals. As has been recently pointed out even Marr was capable of moving so fast he appeared to teleport to Darth Lachris. Yet Revan was keeping up with a BM-amped Marr plus 6 other powerful combatants including the protagonist. Plus theres the fact that novel Revan had an entire duel with Vitiate inside of a few seconds. Both Revan and Valkorion grew immensely in power after that point.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Once again, I'm skeptical of teleportation because it just hasn't made a difference in the vast majority of SW fights where it's been in play. Normally teleportation doesn't seem to be straining (see Jadus, An'ya Kuro, etc), yet characters clearly appear to have limited applications of it, especially in a fight. I don't see why it's an exception here. History literally shows us that it's not a get out of jail free card.

As for "in the midst of lightsaber swings", I have no idea why you think that's impressive. That's against opponents far slower than Yoda. If I swung a baseball bat slowly enough, I'm sure you could take the rubbish bin out and back before I finished swinging. It's all relative. I'd like to see him doing it in the midst of Yoda's swings.

Teleportation would only be used to create distance to maintain a Force fight or if Yoda is actually pressuring him with his lightsaber (which itself is unlikely). Such a trivial application of it is easily within the bounds of the ability, which has been used far more practically. Revan uses it in the midst of pitched battle easily.

You were suggesting that its not an ability that can be used quickly. But it is, it can be used as quickly as any other power. Valkorions own immense speed and reaction time mean that he'd be more than capable of using it against Yoda.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The extra fluff about frozen statues is irrelevant. Obviously if you slow down someone's perception of time people are going to look slow/motionless to you.

Regardless, it seems that unless Yoda is hosting Valkorion's spirit, his perceptions of time won't be affected (surely someone with more power than Valkorion would be exempt from it in the same way as with any other Force power, too).

As for Heskal, what do you mean? How is that different from DS you attacking Arcann after accepting Valkorion's power? It just means the entire conversation with Valkorion takes place in an instant.

If his powers were anything like what you suggest, he'd have just frozen time and killed both Arcann and the Outlander together in Chapter 1. Surely he wouldn't even need to have the Outlander around or indulge Arcann's many swings?

Gosh, if only I had actually just said that. Thanks for explain that for me, I hadn't quite got it.

As I said, I'm purely arguing for its use in supplementing Valkorions own reaction time to deal with Yoda's supposedly superior speed.

It means that he can both move and attack in stopped time, or at the very least he can attack at the exact instant he resumes regular time such that its indistinguishable.

Of course he could have easily killed Arcann and the Outlander in Chapter 1. The whole point was that he wasn't taking it seriously and got surprised. AP and I already proved that Valkorion can both use his power (charge it, manipulate it etc) and attack in stopped time.

Charles Boyd states he manufactured his death in KOTFE.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maybe if she became some TOR operation boss who could "threaten the galaxy" if she was released but ends up losing to the main cast by having a bowling pin dropped on her head then they'll afford her the same privilege.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ah, right. Quick quoting gets around it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Every Force user already sees things in slow motion relative to their own combat speed, lol. There's no external difference when Valkorion uses his power. Hence I'm of the belief that he won't even attempt to use it in combat, as he knows it's useless here.

Based on precedent, Valkorion's ability to affect perceptions is purely for exchanging thoughts with his host, not external attacks. There's no difference.

That's not accurate to all descriptions of Force users in combat. Sometimes its the exact opposite in fact. Not all of them can casually grind time down to a halt , move around and attack while their opponent is frozen. Unless you're going to fanatically claim that Yoda is so super sonic he can beat time stop with goes fast its usefulness is apparent to anyone with a working brain.

I just proved that untrue. In fact I just went and checked the Heskal video and you can see Heskal still frozen in time right before the Outlanders attack hits him.

Plus theres this:

PTNYICZ8twg&t

At 12.13 Valkorion uses the Force to lift the Outlander in time stop. Then at 12.39 he further uses it to force him on his knees and continues manipulating him. He even uses telepathy.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. You accept Valkorion's power without time changing. By the time there's an actual attack, time has gone back to normal.

Which is natural for something that doesn't actually affect time.

Even if that were true, which I've proven it isn't, being able to freeze time and then instantly launch an attack at an opponent when time resumes is insanely useful in combat.

Yoda has even less of a chance that when we started his discussion now that we've started really examining this ability. I thank you.

YODA (14):
Ursumeles
cs_zoltan
JKBart
SunRazer
The_Tempest
Selenial
Geistalt
i_like_swords
Lord Stark
Greysentinel365
Beniboybling
Azronger
Sasukedc
Rockydonovang

VALKORION (8):
DarthAnt66
Rebel95
Ancient Power
Dark-Kenshin
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Haschwalth
Nephthys
Total Warrior

UNUTHUL (1):
The Ellimist

The poll will remain open for another day.

AP, I'll respond to your PMs soon - am at school.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's not accurate to all descriptions of Force users in combat. Sometimes its the exact opposite in fact. Not all of them can casually grind time down to a halt , move around and attack while their opponent is frozen. Unless you're going to fanatically claim that Yoda is so super sonic he can beat time stop with goes fast its usefulness is apparent to anyone with a working brain.

I just proved that untrue. In fact I just went and checked the Heskal video and you can see Heskal still frozen in time right before the Outlanders attack hits him.

Plus theres this:

PTNYICZ8twg&t

At 12.13 Valkorion uses the Force to lift the Outlander in time stop. Then at 12.39 he further uses it to force him on his knees and continues manipulating him.



Even if that were true, which I've proven it isn't, being able to freeze time and then instantly launch an attack at an opponent when time resumes is insanely useful in combat.

Yoda has even less of a chance that when we started his discussion now that we've started really examining this ability. I thank you. Holy sh-t, Valkorion can stop f-cking time? How is this even a matchup?

Mostly PT bias, I think.

RIP SunRazer.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Charles Boyd states he manufactured his death in KOTFE.

Quote? It doesn't make any sense story-wise, even by swtor standards.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Holy sh-t, Valkorion can stop f-cking time? How is this even a matchup?

Fair question, Yoda is more powerful than a guy who can create life without semen and can bring back people from the dead. I don't see how Valkorion can compete, especially since he can't even tell one end of the lightsaber from the other.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Quote? It doesn't make any sense story-wise, even by swtor standards.
He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's not accurate to all descriptions of Force users in combat. Sometimes its the exact opposite in fact. Not all of them can casually grind time down to a halt , move around and attack while their opponent is frozen. Unless you're going to fanatically claim that Yoda is so super sonic he can beat time stop with goes fast its usefulness is apparent to anyone with a working brain.

I just proved that untrue. In fact I just went and checked the Heskal video and you can see Heskal still frozen in time right before the Outlanders attack hits him.

Plus theres this:

PTNYICZ8twg&t

At 12.13 Valkorion uses the Force to lift the Outlander in time stop. Then at 12.39 he further uses it to force him on his knees and continues manipulating him. He even uses telepathy.



Even if that were true, which I've proven it isn't, being able to freeze time and then instantly launch an attack at an opponent when time resumes is insanely useful in combat.

Yoda has even less of a chance that when we started his discussion now that we've started really examining this ability. I thank you.

That's not him stopping time. That's him manipulating the Outlander's perspective. We even ****ing see it from Arcann's perspective and time isn't stopped.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him.

So while he was the emperor he let himself be killed so he could invade the shitlander's mind and be the emperor again, where he started?

Bioware...
http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_in_content_image/KobeFacepalmPinchNose_o4603j.gif

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's not him stopping time. That's him manipulating the Outlander's perspective. We even ****ing see it from Arcann's perspective and time isn't stopped.

He's stopped time in the middle of combat, lol. Its not just perspective.

And the perspective of the person who's mind is being f*cked with is not admissible as evidence of what is actually going on.

If that video is of any indication, I don't think this "perception" distinction matters. If an ability like that is unchained by PIS/CIS, then there's nothing stopping Valk from enhancing his own perceptions to ridiculous degrees and effectively having built-in prep mid-battle, hell even mid-attack. He could sit back and spend hours deliberating each move Sherlocke Holme's style and decide upon the most efficient method of counterattack meanwhile always leaving his opponent in the dust. If I had an ability like that, I would destroy world champion boxers and MMA fighters with the utmost ease.

Quite.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111233150/4580267-5870481840-FoD7V.gif

mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
Look at what I was replying to before you hit send next time.

Stark was suggesting time wasn't stopped based on Arcann's perspective. I was rebutting that point only. We know it isn't just perspective because Valk and the Outlander can move and use the Force in stopped time. From the perspective of the Outlander, right.

I'm sure that from the Outlanders perspective he did move and launch attacks in stopped time, yes.

Because he did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm sure that from the Outlanders perspective he did move and launch attacks in stopped time, yes.

Because he did. Originally posted by The Ellimist

Originally posted by AncientPower
Plagueis tried and failed.
Right, because the force itself directly intervened and destroyed his experiments.

king joker is overseas and i am voting yoda for him by proxy.

Overseas to whom?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's stopped time in the middle of combat, lol. Its not just perspective.

Yes, it is. Valkorion also made the Outlander see Darth Jadus in another one of those little stopped time moments. I guess Valkorion can now use the midi-clorians to create life in the exact form he wants it to as well.

Lulz.

The Outlander was in a coma at that point, frozen in carbonite. They were "dreaming". You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lulz.

The Outlander was in a coma at that point, frozen in carbonite. They were "dreaming". You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I see you using a widely used fantasy trope of time stopping during a vision as a feat of time stopping.

Sure, Jan.

OK, being serious here for a moment:

It's difficult to do a side-by-side environmental feats comparison between Yoda and Vitiate given that the former obviously isn't inclined to start going around and eating planets or something. Given that, it's better to go mainly via powerscaling and accolades (and, by proxy, powerscaled feats).

Since it's pretty established that by before Plagueis's death, Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, in order to be above Yoda, Valkorion must be above Vitiate pre-Valkorion by a greater degree than RotS Sidious is above mid-TPM Sidious at a minimum. More realistically, Plagueis is already implied to have surpassed all of the ancient sith even before he uses midichlorian manipulation to amp himself, so there's likely an even greater buffer for Valkorion to overcome.

If you want to know how unlikely this is, take a look at what happens with Palpatine following Plagueis's death. There is a realignment in power so massive the celestial bodies themselves are described in pretty explicit detail (I dare say too explicit to be mere hyperbole) to have been rearranged. Given that Plagueis and Sidious needed intensive meditation to achieve their galactic-scale Force realiagnment while Sidious then does what is implied to be a comparable or even greater rebalancing by himself, the power differential must have been enormous. And then there's no reason to think he doesn't grow more powerful from there to RotS, during which Yoda is clearly comparable to him in power.

Valkorion dies.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
OK, being serious here for a moment:

It's difficult to do a side-by-side environmental feats comparison between Yoda and Vitiate given that the former obviously isn't inclined to start going around and eating planets or something. Given that, it's better to go mainly via powerscaling and accolades (and, by proxy, powerscaled feats).

It isn't better, it just allows you to ignore any kind of actual argument about the two and declare Yoda the winner. You know you can't actually argue that Yoda would win with his actual abilities so you're just attempting to shut the discussion down through fiat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't better, it just allows you to ignore any kind of actual argument about the two and declare Yoda the winner.

"It isn't better, here's an ad hominem" isn't a quality argument, even by your standards. Try again.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
l (I dare say too explicit to be mere hyperbole).
Please don't do that. Everything else was on point, but this was obviously a hyperbolic description.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Please don't do that. Everything else was on point, but this was obviously a hyperbolic description.

Well the conservative interpretation is that it was hyperbole but clearly describes an amp/realignment so massive that you can describe it as the physical reconfiguration of the galaxy without being ridiculous, and the liberal one is that the celestial orbits were literally changing. Whichever you take, we have to be consistent.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well the conservative interpretation is that it was hyperbole but clearly describes an amp/realignment so massive that you can describe it as the physical reconfiguration of the galaxy without being ridiculous, and the liberal one is that the celestial orbits were literally changing. Whichever you take, we have to be consistent.
Well, I take it as TPM Sidious grew a lot more powerful which should be sufficient for your argument. And yes, vitiate's descriptions of power growth aren't as impressive as this one.

Yoda without a doubt

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Ad hominem aside, he has a point. Accolades should sparingly be used in a versus forum context as you end up running into a lot of trouble with author's intent, which is never to establish that X character would be omnipotent in any random hypothetical scenario involving a fight with Y character." X character is great, but if his feats indicate some shortcomings in one area, we shouldn't blindly disregard said shortcomings when analyzing how he'd fare against another combatant and harp on about scaling and whatever.


Actually, authorial intent is one of the best arguments for prioritizing accolades over feats, because it's far simpler to construct a consistent general power hierarchy than to carefully calibrate the magnitude and implications of every application of the Force to the user's intended power relative to other Force users. "Sidious is more powerful than Dooku" is easy to get consistent in stories; "oh we'll have Dooku lift this rock but wait didn't Sidious struggle with lifting that thing, which one is heavier?" requires a lot more calibration that we know authors don't typically do.



No, but general Force power is a very good proxy for combative ability for obvious reasons. We see that Force users' ability to use the Force in one area is correlated with their ability to use it in another; while it's not exactly the same, there's a reason why you don't see Vestara Khai blowing up fleets with Force Storms.

Lol @ Ell still grasping onto sheer hyperbole.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol @ Ell still grasping onto sheer hyperbole.

How is rearranging celestial orbits any more ridiculous than Force induced cinematic filters?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol @ Ell still grasping onto sheer hyperbole.

The ****ing hypocrisy lmfao.

Lmfao,

Causing a shockwave in the Force that is felt by three seperate individuals isn't the same as solar system wrecking across the galaxy.

Get back to Cersei masturbation.

https://i.imgur.com/w3hUyFC.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
If Yoda's in midair he won't be able to properly put pressure on Valkorions barrier since he won't have anything to press back against and it'll do little. Also Arcann's overpowered people like the Wrath who's immensely strong.

What Barrier? You mean Valkorion's hand? I don't recall him using Barrier against Arcann.



Lachris doesn't have anything going for her, so that's not that impressive. Pre-AotC Anakin moved fast enough to appear to be everywhere at once to Obi-Wan, who as of TPM himself was already faster than Qui-Gon and within the range of Maul, both of whom have highly credible speed feats and have better speed feats than Marr.

Revan's feat is good but ambiguous. We don't know how long the fight lasted before he lost, we don't know the nature of how they fought, whether Revan exploited their numbers by getting them in each other's way, etc. He was also immensely amped there, while the others would have been suffering inverse effects save for Marr (but I accounted for him already).

The novel fight being a few seconds was debunked, if I recall correctly. It was just Vitiate unloading the Lightning into Revan which took a few seconds. Though even if it were a few seconds for that fight, that's not that impressive as it's literally just throwing a few Force powers at each other.



I don't recognise game mechanics that aren't pivotal to the story. The one time I can be sure of Revan using teleportation was at the end of The Foundry fight, which he did while gathering powers and probably exhausted himself (since he was also holding up the Protection Bubble).



I was suggesting that it's not as spammable as you suggested. I've yet to see evidence on the contrary. Of course it's an instantaneous power. My point was that it was limited in application. We know all sorts of characters from Jadus to the First Son to An'ya Kuro and even Abeloth could teleport, but they hardly made unlimited use of the power. They still either outright fled or completely failed to muster the ability to do it again when they started losing. My assumption is that Valkorion isn't going to outright flee here as that would count as BFR'ing himself out of the fight and losing.



That's why I said it was irrelevant and obvious.



Yes, and I still don't understand how that works.



Of course it's indistinguishable. The only time there's an attack in this supposedly stopped time is when the Outlander accepts Valkorion's power, which of course won't take extra time. That's just adding Valkorion's Force reserves on top of the Outlander's, something which wouldn't actually require additional time. So all it took was the time for the Outlander to actually use a Force attack as normal.



Alright, lol. And no, you haven't. Once again, the only thing that ever happens in stopped time is conversation and the Outlander choosing to add Valkorion's powers onto his own. Whenever any actual attack happens, it goes back to normal time, as the Outlander is now taking action in the real world and not conversing with Valkorion in his head.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's not accurate to all descriptions of Force users in combat. Sometimes its the exact opposite in fact. Not all of them can casually grind time down to a halt , move around and attack while their opponent is frozen. Unless you're going to fanatically claim that Yoda is so super sonic he can beat time stop with goes fast its usefulness is apparent to anyone with a working brain.

Sel just provided a good example of Scourge seeing Visions such that it appears that time stopped, and that's probably a good comparison. Valkorion just talks to the Outlander within his head as if it were a sort of vision, something which just isn't relevant in a fight.



Nope, that's exactly as I addressed above. The "charging up" or "attacking" is just an animation to represent you accepting Valkorion's power, something which realistically would take just about no time in real time as well. As soon as an actual attack occurs (ie. instantaneous) time is back to normal.



What are you talking about? At 12:13, when Valkorion lifts the Outlander, Senya and Arcann can clearly witness it in real time and are screaming "No!".

At 12:39, he seemingly goes into the Outlander's mind. That's it. We then get a prolonged mental sequence, and by the time it cuts back to real time we just have Arcann and Senya by the Outlander's side while he's entranced on the throne.

The Outlander shares a host relation with him that's proven to be an integral aspect to every use of this "time stop" power, which has shown and by Valkorion's own word has no effect on the outside world. Given this host relationship is absent here, I have good reason to suspect the power itself will be.



You're welcome. Nice to see you haven't lost that fine mental edge, Neph.

This exercise has proven that Valkorion's time affecting powers are literally just him going into the head of his host and having conversations with their psyche without consuming real time. As Valkorion himself warns, time in the real world hasn't stopped and therefore actions still need to be taken as normal.

Examples of Valkorion actually stopping time for any real combative purpose (or without involving a host) have been, understandably, rather scarce.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
RIP SunRazerNephthys.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How is rearranging celestial orbits any more ridiculous than Force induced cinematic filters?

Lol are you really grasping at something conceded over a year ago? Pathetic.

Anyway,

Even if he can't stop time he can still adapt his own perceptions and react accordingly, which is still laughably better than anything in the mythos. It also scales nicely off of Leneer's own perceptions/speed.

I'm still not seeing this grand L the Plagueis brigade is trying to make things out to be.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lol are you really grasping at something conceded over a year ago? Pathetic.

I thought it was obvious but I don't necessarily think Sidious can literally TK solar systems on a galactic scale. Of course, that doesn't mean he doesn't easily defeat Valkorion.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Anyway,

Even if he can't stop time he can still adapt his own perceptions and react accordingly, which is still laughably better than anything in the mythos. It also scales nicely off of Leneer's own perceptions/speed.

I'm still not seeing this grand L the Plagueis brigade is trying to make things out to be.

He's communicating with his host's psyche without taking time. That's all the apparent freezing of time is. Valkorion doesn't actually affect time or the perception of it in any meaningful way, lol. I would compare it to Karness Muur conversing with Celeste Morne in the Vector comics, particularly in her fight against Vader.

Completely irrelevant and useless in any versus forums scenario. This entire "time stop" shtick has been a complete misnomer. It's nothing of the sort.

It's implied that in the Plagueis novel, Sidious sees Plagueis's life story, presumably in far less time than his actual life years.

Yes, that's another example. It's just a moment of supernatural perception that consumes no real time. The implication is that when Sidious goes back to real time, no/a negligible amount of time has actually passed. I believe it's the same with the Jedi heading into Mortis and coming back out after three episodes.

But this isn't actually some sort of vision, so I maintain that the best example is Muur conversing with Celeste Morne. It's that same communicating with the host that we have here with Valkorion and the Outlander (right down to the offering power thing, only Celeste refuses Muur), not any actual manipulation of time. He's not even affecting their perception of time. It's completely useless in combat.

I'm still not seeing a feat comparable to the stompage of the Outlander, Arcann, and the spirits of Vaylin, Revan, Marr and the aid of Satele Shan to boot.

I'm also not seeing anything comparable to Vitiate simultaneously stalemating Sel-Makor, suppressing Vaylin, dominating Revan, dominating the Dread Masters, dominating the Hero of Tython, Tol Braga, Leeha Narizz and Warren Sedoru, empowering the First Son of the Emperor, empowering thousands of his Children beyond what any Sith could achieve, dominating the Emperor's Hand and all his Imperial Guard, and still having enough power and mental will to enact the Dark Ritual after this.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Actually, authorial intent is one of the best arguments for prioritizing accolades over feats, because it's far simpler to construct a consistent general power hierarchy than to carefully calibrate the magnitude and implications of every application of the Force to the user's intended power relative to other Force users. "Sidious is more powerful than Dooku" is easy to get consistent in stories; "oh we'll have Dooku lift this rock but wait didn't Sidious struggle with lifting that thing, which one is heavier?" requires a lot more calibration that we know authors don't typically do.Authors don't do that kind of calibration and they also don't sit around speculating on how Sidious or Dooku would perform against a myriad of hypothetical opponents (including one's that haven't even been created at the time of publishing) in an unrealistic gladiator cage styled vacuum. In the context of the force, power, especially for Sidious, has numerous applications outside of direct and random combat. Plagues and Sidious's ritual is the chief example of this. Clouding the entire Jedi Order's foresight is another good example.

Except nobody in SW, save for maybe the Ones, is a galaxy tier combatant (i.e. Skyfather level). Not even close, so Plagues' and Sidious' ritual as well as dark-side shifting to Sidious after Plagues' death doesn't remotely correlate with how well he does in direct and random combat and any effort to correlate them is speculation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We don't know how long the fight lasted before he lost,
The same is true for most novel fights as well.


What does this even mean?


Uh, good for him?

Regardless, it is stated that the team's "combat effectiveness" was greatly bolstered by Satele Shan.


False. Revan was (likely) amped by the dark-side nexus present, but that doesn't factor out:

a.) He had just fought a far more ruthless battle in the Temple of Sacrifice, in which he received multiple injuries, including but not limited to an explosion approaching the potency of damaging all life in a one-kilometer radius being unleashed upon him and the Machine Core violently stripping away his Force essence.

b.) Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and possibly the player character (if not the Hero of Tython, then not him, but it is likely Scourge would be present, then) would have also been amped. The only characters who would not have been empowered would be Satele Shan and, again, possibly the protagonist.

c.) Satele Shan would have been amping the team, likely negating the effect of the nexus for the protagonist if necessary and, for the others, bolstering them to an unfair advantage over Revan (relatively speaking). Further, Revan would have been hindered by the battle meditation.

d.) It is indicated Theran Shan called in air support numerous instances throughout the battle, as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjNxsuIFK-c.

But yes, let's ignore all that and say not only was Revan amped, but "immensely."


This "spin" on events is completely ignorant of what happened and, frankly, disappointing that would you be so dishonest.


According to Skillz, there is a sequence where the Outlander continues walking as Valkorion does-what-he-does, and when Valkorion stops doing it, the Outlander retains his place now far ahead of the other characters.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's communicating with his host's psyche without taking time. That's all the apparent freezing of time is. Valkorion doesn't actually affect time or the perception of it in any meaningful way, lol. I would compare it to Karness Muur conversing with Celeste Morne in the Vector comics, particularly in her fight against Vader.

Completely irrelevant and useless in any versus forums scenario. This entire "time stop" shtick has been a complete misnomer. It's nothing of the sort.

You're completing nelglecting how he can dominate the Outlander whilst doing it, maintain the ability as the Outlander kills Heskel, instantly channel powers through this ability. Oh and the fact that he's more powerful in a physical form. Everything he did in this state is lesser than what he can achieve at full strength.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Authors don't do that kind of calibration and they also don't sit around speculating on how Sidious or Dooku would perform against a myriad of hypothetical opponents (including one's that haven't even been created at the time of publishing) in an unrealistic gladiator cage styled vacuum.

My point is that this problem applies more to feats, because it's easier to say that X > Y than to calibrate every indication of X's power to every known indication of Y's power. Remember that you invoked authorial intent; the most you can get back to with that argument is a wash, so it's not useful for you.



Except that introducing combative ability tilts things even more in Plagueis and Sidious's favor, given that they are obviously far better than Valkorion close quarters and have more experience in direct combat.



What the hell does a "galaxy tier combatant" mean? I never said that the correlation has a particular scaling factor; it's irrelevant because we're comparing Plagueis and Valkorion (or whoever else) on a relative scale, not the magnitude of Plagueis's power in an absolute sense.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The same is true for most novel fights as well.

Indeed.



The way in which he engaged them. Did he run up and get involved in a complex melee fight or did he just keep staying on the periphery and launching Force powers at them while defending himself with Barrier, etc?



My point being that when you fight against opponents of number, you don't just add their skillsets on top of each other. That's not how it works. I assume you agree with me, which returns to the question of how impressive Revan's feat actually is. How do we compare it to anything else or measure it's worth in a one-on-one fight?



Is this the one where he fought a lesser strike team and still lost?



I mentioned all of these as a means of counteracting the Battle Meditation except for the Dark siders being doubly amped by the nexus and the BM which I agree with. In fairness, I have no way of knowing where the nexus and the BM actually cancel out (if anything, it's presumable that it didn't). More power to Revan if he was hindered as a whole, but that doesn't actually mean anything until I can use that to actually rank Revan compared to other characters like Yoda and Dooku.

For all the circumstances in the fight (ie. Light Revan hindering him or something?), my real question is just how do we compare this to any other feat in the mythos? Fighting six people at once just isn't the same as fighting one, and I'm trying to see how we measure Revan's feat in a way that we can safely use it in a one-on-one fight. I mean, Revan could be significantly hindered all I care. At the end of the day I'm just interested in seeing how we judge this feat. I know it's impressive; that's not the question here.

I'm not actually trying to degrade Revan, which your ego obviously couldn't handle and brought you into this as a result. As of yet, my question remains unanswered. How does Revan's fight against the main cast compare to, say, Yoda fighting Sidious? Where does Revan's performance put him in the grand scheme of things? I'm confident he's well above any one of the fighters there already.



Well that may change things. I'd like to see it.

I found an example of it:

c0cHlDHHgxE

10.00. The Outlander starts well behind Koth and walks in front of him.

Lmao, so I traced this debate over Revan to Neph claiming that Revan is well within range of Yoda's speed. How does Revan vs. the strike team prove that again?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
My point is that this problem applies more to feats, because it's easier to say that X > Y than to calibrate every indication of X's power to every known indication of Y's power. Nah, I don't think so. We can look to our sister Comic Book versus forum to see that comparing feats of various characters is nowhere is near as complicated as you're attempting to make it out to be. And I don't believe we need to calibrate every single known application of X's known force powers. Maybe in a respect thread, but for a simple fight, a general assessment of how they perform in combat and any relevant extrinsic evidence that would enhance their chances in the proposed hypothetical scenario would be sufficient. I don't see anything illogical about this method of analysis, but see ample illogic with trying to take statements made by the authors/publishers/dictionaries and use them outside of what they were intended for.If they're obviously far better, then lets hear the argument for why they are far better (and preferably without using vague and nebulous non combat showings). Couldn't care less about chest beating PT/OT/TOR brigade nonsense and am happy to change my assessment of things upon being confronted with new or compelling information.

Galaxy tier combatant is meant by whatever is being insinuated when you mention a "galactic scale force alignment." Suffice to say, I don't believe that it is in any way reflective of the level of sheer combative abilities, much less that you can use it to quantify how well they might fare in a hypothetical battle against Valkorion or whoever.

Also at one point Valkorion stops time for both the Outlander and Vaylin and Vaylin is able to also walk around and end up in a different spot at the end of the conversation. So Valkorion clearly isn't just affecting his hosts psyche or showing them a vision or any other handwave.

See u in the morning.

@Ellimist - Yeah, that's probably a more pertinent line of questioning. Instead of wasting time dissecting the fight for him, it's probably easier to just ask how it compares to Yoda's and why.

@Neph - Interesting. So he can walk while chatting to Valkorion in his head. Assuming that isn't some sort of animation error, it still doesn't really deviate from my point about the spirit talking to his host. In essence, it seems every time Valkorion "comes out", we get the time meddling. It's almost like a pre-requisite for his communicating with the Outlander. So again, all it seems to be is the fact that he can speak with people without consuming significant real time. I still don't see a real difference compared to Muur and Celeste Morne, and I still don't see it being used in combat for any of the reasons that have been suggested over time.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Nah, I don't think so. We can look to our sister Comic Book versus forum to see that comparing feats of various characters is nowhere is near as complicated as you're attempting to make it out to be. And I don't believe we need to calibrate every single known application of X's known force powers. Maybe in a respect thread, but for a simple fight, a general assessment of how they perform in combat and any relevant extrinsic evidence that would enhance their chances in the proposed hypothetical scenario would be sufficient. I don't see anything illogical about this method of analysis, but see ample illogic with trying to take statements made by the authors/publishers/dictionaries and use them outside of what they were intended for.

What does any of this have to do with the topic you yourself had brought up? You said that feats were better than accolades because accolades don't line up with authorial intent. Do you have any argument to why feats are better in this regard, and/or any counter to my position to the contrary? All you're doing now is vaguely asserting that they work fine in comic book vs. and saying the inverse of my position with no elaboration or explanation at all.



I mean if we equalize Force power under your hypothetical, Sidious has a lightsaber and extensive close quarters combat training, being considered by multiple sources and in multiple demonstrations one of the most prolific duelists in the mythos, while Valkorion has absolutely nothing - there's no indication that he even knows how to use a lightsaber. Even as a trainee Palpatine is taking on hundreds of opponents in physical combat while the one time we see Vitiate holding a lightsaber he barely knows what to do with it and gets disarmed by a saber throw from Meetra Surik.



No, because the fact that cosmic feats can operate on a greater scale than combat feats doesn't mean that ordering characters by cosmic feats doesn't correlate with how you order them by combat feats. E.g. there is obviously a huge scaling factor but that doesn't mean that a scaling factor doesn't exist. Different Force abilities are not performed in isolation; you're harnessing the same general reserves. While having greater cosmic feats doesn't prove that Plagueis would win in a fight, it is a substantial piece of evidence that he would.

@GilletteRazor, you realise that him doing the same to Vaylin completely breaks down your argument that it's only in the Outlander's psyche.

@Ellimissed, you do realise that Valkorion has drained combat knowledge from the likes of Revan and the Hero of Tython and in SoR he two-shots Lana Beniko in a duel, Dooku style. He's not nearly as bad as people think.

I like how this yapping on about Cosmic Force feats keeps going on, when Valk's doing them as side effects of his power. And not to mention he's got scaling over Force users who have nearly as impressive feats as Plagueis does and yet they're considered fodder to him prior to Ziost.

Originally posted by AncientPower
And not to mention he's got scaling over Force users who have nearly as impressive feats as Plagueis does

Like who?

Originally posted by AncientPower
@GilletteRazor

@Ellimissed

Your salt is tangible.

Revan's being confirmed to be > Dread Masters who are evidently > Soa, but that argument is not quite ready yet.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Your salt is tangible.

Your obsession is notable.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Your obsession is notable.

As far as obsessions go making fun of retards is way better than busting a vein over fictional character placements.