Thor vs Superman (Again)

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Damborgson
Let's spice this up a little.

Speed equalized.

No magic weakness for Superman.

CIS OFF.

Thor vs Post Crisis/Pre New 52 Superman

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/df/c1/77/dfc177ee6874002f872201f4df67b541--comic-books-comic-art.jpg

vs

https://pm1.narvii.com/6576/55cd44e90d16f833ca77950a18a57c7228570a34_hq.jpg


Who wins?

abhilegend
Shitstorm coming......

Adam Grimes
Lmao

Damborgson
Originally posted by abhilegend
Shitstorm coming......

https://i.imgur.com/Asa59BI.gif

-----

Hopefully not too bad though.

krisblaze
Bro just stop

MrMind
Thor is taller, but Superman is better looking and have a more proportional physique, Thor is a juice head

Damborgson
Originally posted by krisblaze
Bro just stop

stick out tongue

Philosophía
Superman.

He actually beat Thor without blitzing him in JLA/Avengers.

Bentley
Pound by pound, hit by hit, skill vs skill, all out slugfest Superman would beat Thor.

But in this scenario I can see Thor bfr Superman without too much difficulty given that he can mostly hang out with him and that mjolnir has many exotic powers that would allow him to at least get a temporary upper hand over Kal.

Philosophía
Superman flies up to him, grabs his hands, and heat visions his brain through his eyeballs.

Bentley
Thor opens a portal to a red sun. One shots Kal. Eats a burger.

DarkSaint85
Superman rubs Thor so firmly, Thor's particles are excited, creating anti-God matter.

I hope it's Jane, btw.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Bentley
Thor opens a portal to a red sun. One shots Kal. Eats a burger. Superman realizes Thor is a coward and anything goes.

Drop kicks mjolnir and grabs Thor by the neck to the sun.

Proceeds to rape him.

krisblaze
Superman listens to other guys run a train on Lois, there is no greater coward.

Philosophía
Different version of Superman.

Besides, he'll channel that sexual frustration in Thor's butthole.

quanchi112
Thor wins. Superman before he loses offers to cuck Lois while Thor says, "Bro I am going to bang your skank after I beat your ass with or without your permission anyway."

Adam Grimes

JBL
Thor. The writers of that crossover made it clear that superman BARELY won and another fight would not end that way.

cdtm
Superman beats Goku.

Then (After feeding him a Senzu) Thor beats Goku.

Superman beats Goku slightly faster, so Superman wins.

Adam Grimes
Superman would punch Thor so hard in the face Mjolnir'd crack from the shockwaves.

leonidas
well, this turned out about as well as could be expected. /shrug

h1a8
Speed equalized and CIS off then Thor wins. Come at me.

h1a8
Originally posted by JBL
Thor. The writers of that crossover made it clear that superman BARELY won and another fight would not end that way. I disagree that Superman barely win. He one shot Thor in a position of great mechanical disadvantage. Plus he didn't use his speed at all.

But you are trolling by bringing up something that isn't allowed per rules. So it has absolutely no evidentiary value.

JBL
Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree that Superman barely win. He one shot Thor in a position of great mechanical disadvantage. Plus he didn't use his speed at all.

But you are trolling by bringing up something that isn't allowed per rules. So it has absolutely no evidentiary value. Of course you would disagree, but superman himself stated he barely won. ( guess you fell asleep when you got to that party). He did use his speed to dodge the hammer. ( fell asleep on that too huh?). Funny how a superman fan use that crossover to say superman wins, yet you say nothing. Also note that Thor was distracted when superman hit him. Thor was looking at his hammer. Cheap shot. Wonderman did it to thor too.

h1a8
Originally posted by JBL
Of course you would disagree, but superman himself stated he barely won. ( guess you fell asleep when you got to that party). He did use his speed to dodge the hammer. ( fell asleep on that too huh?). Funny how a superman fan use that crossover to say superman wins, yet you say nothing. Also note that Thor was distracted when superman hit him. Thor was looking at his hammer. Cheap shot. Wonderman did it to thor too.

Why are you still talking about something that is against the rules?
It has no evidentiary value. It's derailing the thread. So no more mentioning it.

JBL
Originally posted by h1a8
Why are you still talking about something that is against the rules?
It has no evidentiary value. It's derailing the thread. So no more mentioning it. Tell that to the other person who is using it in this thread.

DarkSaint85
He stopped with his second post on the subject,though.

You didn't.

xJLxKing
Superman wins

Better fighter, more durable, and stronger.

However, this thread is made so Superman has a hard time winning sinc he is considerably faster than Thor.

abhilegend
Originally posted by JBL
Thor. The writers of that crossover made it clear that superman BARELY won and another fight would not end that way.
Where was that said?

abhilegend
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman wins

Better fighter, more durable, and stronger.

However, this thread is made so Superman has a hard time winning sinc he is considerably faster than Thor.
Superman doesn't needs speed to beat the shit out of Thor.

xJLxKing

abhilegend

DarkSaint85
We know how Thor treats physical superiors.

He BFRd the Hulk.

h1a8
Thor can bfr Superman ftw.

Steve Zodiac
Supes to classic Thor, "I notice you have stopped wearing your briefs over your tights also, yay we can dress properly now".

Supes to Jane Thor, "can I sniff your briefs".

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We know how Thor treats physical superiors.

He BFRd the Hulk.

Yes, it's a viable tactic.

Plenty more times where he didn't.

Could be pis, like Superman and the speed blitz.

Could also be character driven ego, wanting to put him down.

cdtm
Originally posted by h1a8
Speed equalized and CIS off then Thor wins. Come at me.


Supes still has HV. Stare and shoot wins in a quickdraw.

If it doesn't put Thor down (It's strong enough to do so), it should at least put Mjolnir on defense while he closes in.

I mean, what he gonna do. Absorb it and fire back ten fold? That would only super charge him.

JBL
HV? Thors hammer must have gotten stripped of its ability to fire energy blasts?? Thor can blast supermans face off with his hammer.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Damborgson
Let's spice this up a little.

Speed equalized.

No magic weakness for Superman.

CIS OFF.

Thor vs Post Crisis/Pre New 52 Superman

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/df/c1/77/dfc177ee6874002f872201f4df67b541--comic-books-comic-art.jpg

vs

https://pm1.narvii.com/6576/55cd44e90d16f833ca77950a18a57c7228570a34_hq.jpg


Who wins?

You're a brave lad. Let me ruffle some feathers and get this discussion going for you. I'm shocked it's not at 20 pages yet.

Thor wins. Too many options from Mjolnir to just end Superman's day without speed giving Superman the edge to stay ahead of them to survive.

Originally posted by xJLxKing

Better fighter

You think Superman is a better fighter than Thor..?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by cdtm
Supes still has HV. Stare and shoot wins in a quickdraw.

If it doesn't put Thor down (It's strong enough to do so), it should at least put Mjolnir on defense while he closes in.

I mean, what he gonna do. Absorb it and fire back ten fold? That would only super charge him.

That would be pretty dumb since I'm assuming Thor isn't limited to using Mjolnir to h2h.

Any type of energy attack from Superman, especially with speed equalized would lead to him instantly being energy drained in a feedback loop he wouldn't be able to escape from.

Out of curiosity, why would absorbing, increasing 10-fold and blasting back heat-vision increase Superman's power? We've seen multiple times that heat-vision hurts other Kryptonian's and doesn't power them up unless that's changed? Maybe it's an inconsistency but I'm assuming heat-vision is a byproduct of Superman metabolizing Solar Energy and not actually yellow-sunlight. Of course, Thor could just as easily transform it into another form of energy when he blasts him back.

leonidas
so it's not a slugfest or just h2h? thor can use mjolnir fully? thor wins. starting distance alone would make this tough for superman. even in close, with equal speed the hammer blows would have more effect than superman's punches imo. not to mention the variety of energy attacks thor could call up. he could charge and throw the hammer for an opening as well, and land multiple lightning strikes. with full use of power and equal speed, this is thor's to lose imo. and i DO see speed as the single biggest factor in any fight between them. take that from superman and i like thor here.

cdtm
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That would be pretty dumb since I'm assuming Thor isn't limited to using Mjolnir to h2h.

Any type of energy attack from Superman, especially with speed equalized would lead to him instantly being energy drained in a feedback loop he wouldn't be able to escape from.

Out of curiosity, why would absorbing, increasing 10-fold and blasting back heat-vision increase Superman's power? We've seen multiple times that heat-vision hurts other Kryptonian's and doesn't power them up unless that's changed? Maybe it's an inconsistency but I'm assuming heat-vision is a byproduct of Superman metabolizing Solar Energy and not actually yellow-sunlight. Of course, Thor could just as easily transform it into another form of energy when he blasts him back.


He's been hurt by other solar based attacks from other characters, as far back as the Byrne era. But it also made him stronger, according to Superman himself.. That's how he defeated Rampage, the DC She Hulk with a mohawk, by grabbing onto her and absorbing the solar energy that Hulked her out. And he's been charged by solar based blasts and such (It hurt him, staggered him, but made him stronger.)

No real reason HV should be any different, seeing it's just solar energy.

DarkSaint85
Then how does he shave

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then how does he shave

With hv.

Just because it amps him doesn't mean it amps up his whiskers. stick out tongue

cdtm
Originally posted by leonidas
so it's not a slugfest or just h2h? thor can use mjolnir fully? thor wins. starting distance alone would make this tough for superman. even in close, with equal speed the hammer blows would have more effect than superman's punches imo. not to mention the variety of energy attacks thor could call up. he could charge and throw the hammer for an opening as well, and land multiple lightning strikes. with full use of power and equal speed, this is thor's to lose imo. and i DO see speed as the single biggest factor in any fight between them. take that from superman and i like thor here.

But WOULD he?

There's a difference between PIS and CIS. Resorting to a portal is usually his go-to if the stakes are high, or he admits he just isn't up to snuff.

Against Hulk, there's times he tucked that hammer in his belt, because he's a god and wants to beat a mortal with his bare hands.

JBL
Prime HV didn't amp him in the slightest. Could have removed his head though.

leonidas
Originally posted by cdtm
But WOULD he?

There's a difference between PIS and CIS. Resorting to a portal is usually his go-to if the stakes are high, or he admits he just isn't up to snuff.

Against Hulk, there's times he tucked that hammer in his belt, because he's a god and wants to beat a mortal with his bare hands.

well, if supes uses hv, not reason why thor wouldn't result to hammer tricks. he's not stupid either. if he gets hit a couple times he'd know he best start using the hammer. he could bfr, absolutely. but it's not his only option in this fight. i don't see him fighting h2h alone if he realizes it's a fight he'd lose. that would just be dumb. /shrug

-Pr-
Originally posted by cdtm
He's been hurt by other solar based attacks from other characters, as far back as the Byrne era. But it also made him stronger, according to Superman himself.. That's how he defeated Rampage, the DC She Hulk with a mohawk, by grabbing onto her and absorbing the solar energy that Hulked her out. And he's been charged by solar based blasts and such (It hurt him, staggered him, but made him stronger.)

No real reason HV should be any different, seeing it's just solar energy.

The problem with heat vision is that it's solar energy comes in the form of heat AND force. The force can and has hurt him, but there's no reason why the actual heat part wouldn't buff him either.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
well, if supes uses hv, not reason why thor wouldn't result to hammer tricks. he's not stupid either. if he gets hit a couple times he'd know he best start using the hammer. he could bfr, absolutely. but it's not his only option in this fight. i don't see him fighting h2h alone if he realizes it's a fight he'd lose. that would just be dumb. /shrug It's not a matter of wanting it, though. Superman would logically do exactly this at the start, with common knowledge of Mjolnir:
https://i.imgur.com/cenrryD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nnw1UjN.jpg
And then this towards the sun:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6PuUsNKymH4/maxresdefault.jpg

...and the match is done.
He could lobotomize him along the way, if he wishes. Or freeze his insides
Superman's flight hasn't been removed, he'll be over Thor before he can think "Hmm...which one of my 100 powers should I employ?". There's no prep here, Thor doesn't have 1 minute before the fight to think what he will do. He is teleported there with common knowledge, and Superman is instantly on him, doing what he wants.

leonidas
but from a standard starting distance the relative time thor has to prepare and meet the blitz would be the same as if you and i were dropped into a bf and told to go. so while supes is blitzing, thor, unlike in the scene you showed, would have time to bat him away, spin the hammer, or just throw it. at normal speeds for both, i agree 100%, thor can't win. but in this case where they have equal speed over a lengthy starting distance, a blitz won't work for superman since thor can and would react to it, no?

cdtm
Superman doesn't have a speed advantage though.

Thor can block hv with Mjolnir.

celeyhyga17
Mjolnir wins

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
but from a standard starting distance the relative time thor has to prepare and meet the blitz would be the same as if you and i were dropped into a bf and told to go. so while supes is blitzing, thor, unlike in the scene you showed, would have time to bat him away, spin the hammer, or just throw it. at normal speeds for both, i agree 100%, thor can't win. but in this case where they have equal speed over a lengthy starting distance, a blitz won't work for superman since thor can and would react to it, no? It's not quite the same as you and I, only if you allow me the ability to fly at whatever speed I want from the other side of the field.

I'm not sure what Damborg's intent is here, but equivalent in speed supposedly means that...Superman is brought down to Thor's level, which is let's say for argument's sake Wolverine/Cap tier . Or are they human level?
Anyway, for the sake of the argument let's assume the former. Now, match starts, and Superman starts flying towards him.

If Cap would have Superman flying speed, it means that he can close the distance as fast as he wants - or better said, as fast as his reaction/perception time now allows, without crashing into Thor because he doesn't perceive when to stop. Though the image of Superman slamming into Thor and KOing him because he couldn't perceive when to stop is hilarious, I'd think, given that real world pilots fly at mach speeds, that he'd be able to handle at least that flight speed . So it would take minimal time to cover the distance to Thor, time in which he'd have to shuffle a shitload of abilities and pick the optimal one. Superman all he has is "I can punch and fly, remove Mjolnir", so his 'buffering' is much lower in terms of options.

What's the chances, especially a majority of time, that in the small time frame before Superman covers the distance and overwhelms him, Thor thinks EXACTLY the right thing to do, in the exact manner that he has to do it? The first instinct would be to try and swing the hammer, which Superman has already been shown to palm anyway. Then lightning I'd say would be the second, which even assuming is instant, would do shit to Superman. But portals to red suns, when he's JUST been given common knowledge at the start of the fight? Yeah, people are starting to get into "I control him" tourney shit, when it's not logical. There is no pre-fight prep, even as far as thinking strategies. Once Clark closes the distance, he does what I posted above.

At least imo.

JBL
Originally posted by -Pr-
The problem with heat vision is that it's solar energy comes in the form of heat AND force. The force can and has hurt him, but there's no reason why the actual heat part wouldn't buff him either. So superman, supergirl and Zod can just shoot each other with hv and power each other up??

MrMind
the idea of countin bfr as a win is pathetic, let's avoid fightin by sendin opponents to a different place instead of me runnin away.

also superman fingers thor in the butthole

JBL
I like how crossovers are being used to protect superman, yet cannot be used to say he loses. If speed is equal, that kills a lot of arguments about Thor getting blitzed. Funny how superman can do all those things and Thor can do nothing but get his hammer Palmed.

Rage.Of.Olympus

xJLxKing

Philosophía
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Every time I've seen Superman hit by Heat Vision, he's been hurt. Your argument isn't making sense to me.

I'm sure there are occurrences of solar energy based attacks powering him up but I've never seen this with heat vision.

http://s7d6.turboimagehost.com/t/36208234_processeshv.jpg

You learned something new today.

thumb up

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Speed is equalized. Thor doesn't need buffering to figure out that Superman is going to fly in and punch him and how to counter... Let leo handle this, I'd rather this discussion keeps its intellect.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Is Superman going to be throwing debris at Thor while he's protecting a mortal female, thinks Superman is an ally that's losing his mind, and Thor's actively holding back? Thor is actively holding back the grip on his hammer?

I lol'd in real life at how retarded you are.

I'm struggling between shitting on your for pages, or having a serious talk with leo.

I'll stick with the latter.

Rage.Of.Olympus
mhmm

Let's stop being ridiculous and assume Thor will use his exotic power set to beat the shit out of Superman. It's far more plausible for Superman to speed blitz Thor because he needs times more time to think of a strategy (Ignoring that he's incredibly experienced at fighting energy-charged based opponents and flying bricks) and then freeze his insides, and lobotomize

Silent Master
Why do people keep mentioning blitzing when the OP said "Speed equalized"?

cdtm
Originally posted by Silent Master
Why do people keep mentioning blitzing when the OP said "Speed equalized"?

Ageeed.

Thor needs the advantage.

leonidas
Originally posted by Philosophia
It's not quite the same as you and I, only if you allow me the ability to fly at whatever speed I want from the other side of the field.

I'm not sure what Damborg's intent is here, but equivalent in speed supposedly means that...Superman is brought down to Thor's level, which is let's say for argument's sake Wolverine/Cap tier . Or are they human level?
Anyway, for the sake of the argument let's assume the former. Now, match starts, and Superman starts flying towards him.

If Cap would have Superman flying speed, it means that he can close the distance as fast as he wants - or better said, as fast as his reaction/perception time now allows, without crashing into Thor because he doesn't perceive when to stop. Though the image of Superman slamming into Thor and KOing him because he couldn't perceive when to stop is hilarious, I'd think, given that real world pilots fly at mach speeds, that he'd be able to handle at least that flight speed . So it would take minimal time to cover the distance to Thor, time in which he'd have to shuffle a shitload of abilities and pick the optimal one. Superman all he has is "I can punch and fly, remove Mjolnir", so his 'buffering' is much lower in terms of options.

What's the chances, especially a majority of time, that in the small time frame before Superman covers the distance and overwhelms him, Thor thinks EXACTLY the right thing to do, in the exact manner that he has to do it? The first instinct would be to try and swing the hammer, which Superman has already been shown to palm anyway. Then lightning I'd say would be the second, which even assuming is instant, would do shit to Superman. But portals to red suns, when he's JUST been given common knowledge at the start of the fight? Yeah, people are starting to get into "I control him" tourney shit, when it's not logical. There is no pre-fight prep, even as far as thinking strategies. Once Clark closes the distance, he does what I posted above.

At least imo.

hmm, ok. the reason i said it would be the same as you and i is because like us, they would have the same relative amount of time to perceive and react to each other. now, i'm not sure thor would need (or be likely to perform) anything exotic here at all. their relative reaction/perceptual speeds are identical, so that means superman would be equally susceptible to an attack from thor, only in your scenario he isn't really doing....anything. he's just standing there, getting ready to receive a blitz--a blitz he would absolutely be able to see coming and react to in borg's thread. now, it's true supes HAS caught the hammer, but in THIS case he'd need to do it WHILE BLITZING. i don't see that happening. while he's blitzing, thor could also throw the hammer, and again, i really don't see him catching a thrown hammer--in fact using the same x-over you referenced, we saw what a hammer throw could do to him--and even if he isn't susceptible to the magic, it would still do some real damage and halt the blitz before it ever reached him.

or, even more likely, he waits for superman to get in close and just...smashes him with the hammer. again, i don't see a blitzing superman being able to stop it like he did in the past. maybe he could dodge, or avoid it, but then his blitz is also negated and it comes down to a more basic fight where the hammer is the difference imo.

in a situation where thor can react to and counter a blitz, i think a blitz from superman is...not his best move tbh. he could try and blitz while blasting hv, but thor could spin his hammer as a shield, blocking both the hv AND the blitz at the same time, and spinning often leads to a portal being opened to some wasteland somewhere or other.

freeze breath might be a better option, but i'm not sure that is exactly his go-to move. it might hold long enough to get him a win though unless thor spun the hammer and drove the breath back or around him.

i think in this situation it really favors thor. i mean one has a crazy uber weapon, and the other doesn't. even if supes is stronger, the hammer makes up the difference in striking power and the longer supes lasts, the more likely thor is to go exotic. least imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by cdtm
Ageeed.

Thor needs the advantage.

definitely. in a forum setting, speed is basically an insurmountable advantage. /shrug

Khazra Reborn
Does this thread really need to exist?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Does this thread really need to exist?

I have a headache while trying to read it, and it's making the headache worse, so probably not.

Stoic
I know that crossovers don't count here, but Superman showed a level of strength comparable to Zeus when he palmed that hammer strike. Thor even commented on how none in all 9 realms could do so, well at least until Rulk did it again. But, at that point in time, Superman showed superior strength to Thor. This has to factor in someplace here right? Anyways I think Superman takes this even while fighting at Thor's speed, or Thor fighting at his speed. Tough fight, but Superman probably eventually wins this.

Damborgson
Sorry if I was unclear guys. I'm equalizing the fighters to Thor's speed in the interest of avoiding the speed blitz FTW argument. Superman can still fly and whatnot but now he's not operating at these levels.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3249789-1.jpg






Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman doesn't needs speed to beat the shit out of Thor.

He needs it to avoid eating hammer though, he's going to get a lot more of this now:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111230790/4620761-thorvssuperman5.jpg

abhilegend
Originally posted by Damborgson
Sorry if I was unclear guys. I'm equalizing the fighters to Thor's speed in the interest of avoiding the speed blitz FTW argument. Superman can still fly and whatnot but now he's not operating at these levels.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101942/3249789-1.jpg








He needs it to avoid eating hammer though, he's going to get a lot more of this now:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111230790/4620761-thorvssuperman5.jpg
Without magic weakness crutch to discuss? Superman can take as many hammer shots as Thor can dish.

Thor isn't winning a physical fight with Superman.

quanchi112
Thor is the better fighter and his hammer would cave in his chest.

Damborgson
Originally posted by abhilegend
Without magic weakness crutch to discuss? Superman can take as many hammer shots as Thor can dish.

Thor isn't winning a physical fight with Superman.

It's not a crutch, it's an actual legitimized 'vulnerability' he has. I'm gonna start calling the speed advantage a crutch.

Thor packs about 100 other abilities that don't require him to win a physical fight with Superman.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Damborgson
It's not a crutch, it's an actual legitimized 'vulnerability' he has. I'm gonna start calling the speed advantage a crutch.

Thor packs about 100 other abilities that don't require him to win a physical fight with Superman. thumb up

krisblaze
I love how the crossover keeps showing up, no matter what.

Palpable desperation.

JBL
Originally posted by abhilegend
Without magic weakness crutch to discuss? Superman can take as many hammer shots as Thor can dish.

Thor isn't winning a physical fight with Superman. Are you on drugs abhil? Superman will not take hammer shots from Thor. Stop being crazy abhil. I tell you this because I'm going to spare you and only you when I put up my video.

Damborgson
....what video?

JBL
Originally posted by Damborgson
....what video? Me my son and 2 of my imaginary writer friends laughing as my son reads some replies from certain superman fans. My son asks them questions, it'll be fun. Carver will laugh his ass off.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Damborgson
It's not a crutch, it's an actual legitimized 'vulnerability' he has. I'm gonna start calling the speed advantage a crutch.

Thor packs about 100 other abilities that don't require him to win a physical fight with Superman.

For Thor fans, it is. Magic weakness rarely affects Superman's fights with herald level beings.

CIS off doesn't means you are controlling the character. Thor isn't suddenly using abilities he hasn't used in decades.

abhilegend
Originally posted by krisblaze
I love how the crossover keeps showing up, no matter what.

Palpable desperation.
Yeah, let's forget the official crossover from the companies and draw our own conclusion which is more official than the crossover.

Originally posted by JBL
Are you on drugs abhil? Superman will not take hammer shots from Thor. Stop being crazy abhil. I tell you this because I'm going to spare you and only you when I put up my video.
Why would anyone be on drugs to say Superman can take mjolnir shots from Thor without magic weakness?

Oh its you. Originally posted by Damborgson
....what video?
You had to ask. Originally posted by JBL
Me my son and 2 of my imaginary writer friends laughing as my son reads some replies from certain superman fans. My son asks them questions, it'll be fun. Carver will laugh his ass off.
laughing out loud

Don't forget to post the imaginary link of the imaginary video.

Damborgson
Originally posted by abhilegend
For Thor fans, it is. Magic weakness rarely affects Superman's fights with herald level beings.

CIS off doesn't means you are controlling the character. Thor isn't suddenly using abilities he hasn't used in decades.

It's done it plenty though, the intention is clear.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-31d0e45704d1864671426027e645c36f

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/146504/2888728-superman_v_viking_001.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11121/111215937/4496839-superman+batman+03-17.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/if3jfNf.png

No, but he also doesn't run into heat vision. More lightning, more absorption, more range, more things that let him steal wins off Superman.

krisblaze
Steal wins?

Superman has nothing here.

Damborgson
Shush, I'm hunting Abhi's.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, ok. the reason i said it would be the same as you and i is because like us, they would have the same relative amount of time to perceive and react to each other. now, i'm not sure thor would need (or be likely to perform) anything exotic here at all. their relative reaction/perceptual speeds are identical, so that means superman would be equally susceptible to an attack from thor, only in your scenario he isn't really doing....anything. he's just standing there, getting ready to receive a blitz--a blitz he would absolutely be able to see coming and react to in borg's thread. now, it's true supes HAS caught the hammer, but in THIS case he'd need to do it WHILE BLITZING. i don't see that happening. while he's blitzing, thor could also throw the hammer, and again, i really don't see him catching a thrown hammer--in fact using the same x-over you referenced, we saw what a hammer throw could do to him--and even if he isn't susceptible to the magic, it would still do some real damage and halt the blitz before it ever reached him.

or, even more likely, he waits for superman to get in close and just...smashes him with the hammer. again, i don't see a blitzing superman being able to stop it like he did in the past. maybe he could dodge, or avoid it, but then his blitz is also negated and it comes down to a more basic fight where the hammer is the difference imo.

in a situation where thor can react to and counter a blitz, i think a blitz from superman is...not his best move tbh. he could try and blitz while blasting hv, but thor could spin his hammer as a shield, blocking both the hv AND the blitz at the same time, and spinning often leads to a portal being opened to some wasteland somewhere or other.

freeze breath might be a better option, but i'm not sure that is exactly his go-to move. it might hold long enough to get him a win though unless thor spun the hammer and drove the breath back or around him.

i think in this situation it really favors thor. i mean one has a crazy uber weapon, and the other doesn't. even if supes is stronger, the hammer makes up the difference in striking power and the longer supes lasts, the more likely thor is to go exotic. least imo.

But, see, I never used blitz, because that's not accurate. What he does is bullrush Thor, since, unless Damborg modifies his stipulations, Superman's flight speed is intact. He's not running towards Thor. So if it's a better vizualization, imagine we're standing 500m apart, and almost as soon as the bell rings I come to you in a F1 car at top speed, but with virtually instant acceleration and stop - only several times faster than that. It'd take me a fraction of a second to get to you , at which point separation from the hammer happens. That is, undoubtedly, the most simple and logical course of action based on the information Superman receives right at the start of the fight.

And there lies the problem, Thor also gets his information at the start of the fight, not prior to the fight. You sit there thinking on what he should do, but he doesn't have that luxury, the fight starts and he has at most a second to think what he would do, based on the data he just received. I never said that he doesn't do anything, but the probability that he does the small fraction of things he can do to Superman's simple plan is very, very low. And how many of those things can he do in the small time frame before Superman closes in?

To simplify it, let's think of it this way. What does Superman get on Thor? "Thunder God with a powerful hammer that he uses for battering or versatility". Based on Superman's abilities, easily his course of action would be to close the distance and separate him from the hammer. What does Thor get on Superman? Super-strong flying brick with heat vision and weakness to a radiation that he can't replicate and red sun. Does he try to throw the hammer at Superman, risking not hitting him and susceptible to being grabbed by the neck and beat the shit out of into the sun . Would Superman use his super-breath as he flies to limit Thor's field of vision and thus hammer strike, since his super-senses allow him to see either way? Possibly. Would he use his heat vision to keep Thor busy blocking it, so that he doesn't do anything else? Also very possible. Does he keep the hammer in his hand, and go physical? Superman is stronger, he'd hit it straight out of his hands, which a lesser Superman copycat has already done. Or do a Hulk , and grab his hand and start beating him with it. Or heat vision his face as he tries to hit him with the hammer. Freeze breath his hand. Waste time creating portals, when that only gives Superman an opening to physical grab him out of there? etc.

I think we're on the same page as to what tactics he'd employ - but we disagree on the extent of them working.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Damborgson
It's done it plenty though, the intention is clear.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-31d0e45704d1864671426027e645c36f

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/146504/2888728-superman_v_viking_001.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11121/111215937/4496839-superman+batman+03-17.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/if3jfNf.png

No, but he also doesn't run into heat vision. More lightning, more absorption, more range, more things that let him steal wins off Superman.
Every single one of these has extenuating circumstances. Captain Marvel has never won, against Superman despite magic weakness in play.

Thor has been given equal speed. His attacks like lightning or hammer throws aren't.

If we are going by one/two time showings route, Superman goes intangible and pulls Thor's heart out while attenuating his body such that Thor can't even touch him. Originally posted by krisblaze
Steal wins?

Superman has nothing here.
Except far superior strength, durability and overall physical superior stats.

quanchi112
laughing out loud

Thor wins.

carver9
Thor could pull a majority without the stips, adding the stips make this overkill imo.

Damborgson
Originally posted by abhilegend
Every single one of these has extenuating circumstances. Captain Marvel has never won, against Superman despite magic weakness in play.

Thor has been given equal speed. His attacks like lightning or hammer throws aren't.

If we are going by one/two time showings route, Superman goes intangible and pulls Thor's heart out while attenuating his body such that Thor can't even touch him.
Except far superior strength, durability and overall physical superior stats.

Oh? Name them.

Because Superman can eat an axe swing from Persuader without getting pierced. Throw in a little magic and Viking cuts him.

Captain Marvel straight up admits that the magic weakness contributed to the KO. And it Superman brings it up himself in a different fight it was bothering him.
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/superman-and-batman-vs-hawkman-and-captain-marvel.jpg?w=620&h=920

Nightshade straight up restrained Superman. Because, magic.

There's more, these were from like, a quick Google search lol.

Nope, they're equalised equalized to Thor's speed. Even if he went intangible, he'll receive Mjolnir to the chest. Not that he can here.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109250/2429946-ThorMjolnir93d-PhaseDisruptionAveng.jpg

cdtm
No magic weakness here.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
No magic weakness here.

So what does this mean?

No speed advantage means....well, equal speed.

So does Thor's magic advantage means that when he hits Superman with his magical hammer....it affects him just as it does everyone else?

Or does it mean SBP haha it tickles! Go back to your creator, Thunder God!

Because if the former....that's going to be difficult to show how that changes much. Yes, Superman has a magical weakness,but every respect thread has a whole section devoted to him resisting magic.

Damborgson
Originally posted by cdtm
No magic weakness here.

I'm aware, I made the thread lol. Just having a discussion with Abhi.

------

No magic Weakness means it won't affect him extra.,yes. So thr hammer and Thors attacks impact like they would the Hulk, for example.

DarkSaint85
....doesn't the Hulk eat his hammer shots?

Carver, back me up here. If the Hulk could shoot laser beams, fly and freeze things, would Thor win?

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
....doesn't the Hulk eat his hammer shots?

Carver, back me up here. If the Hulk could shoot laser beams, fly and freeze things, would Thor win?

Hulk have a healing factor that works so fast it appears as if he is invulnerable. True dynamic strength and durability and he is one of the most aggressive characters in comics. I don't think that was a good comparison.

DarkSaint85
thumb up stupid OP.

You think one needs Hulk level strength and regen/durability to defeat Thor?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Damborgson
Oh? Name them.


Against Captain Marvel, he was taken by surprise.

Ares has oneshotted Thor by surprising him. Heck Skurge has done so. Sucker shots can do that.

Getting cut doesn't means getting koed. The wasp analog was inside his head distracting him when Viking basically cheapshotted him. Later Superman made Viking flee and was beating Viking and Monster (Hulk analog) combined while he was merged with Batman.

He also said element of surprise as what it did.

Superman said magic gave Cap an edge over him. Despite that, he caught his punch and threw him away like nothing.

Not quite a win there.

And if was after Superman had just ran through a gauntlet of supervillains. He endured Silver Banshee just fine earlier.

I can do a lot worse for Thor if I want.

Thor has equal speed to Superman. Not that he has his experience.

Vision isn't Superman and he is particularly susceptible to electrical attacks.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what does this mean?

No speed advantage means....well, equal speed.

So does Thor's magic advantage means that when he hits Superman with his magical hammer....it affects him just as it does everyone else?

Or does it mean SBP haha it tickles! Go back to your creator, Thunder God!

Because if the former....that's going to be difficult to show how that changes much. Yes, Superman has a magical weakness,but every respect thread has a whole section devoted to him resisting magic.

Indeed.

Like the Op said, this is just a way of shutting down the speed blitze and magic weakness arguments. The burdon of proof is on proving eithet can shut the other down, comic book style (So we can look at, say, Thor vs Gladiator or Count Nafaria. Or point to Superman vs non magic based versatility)

Damborgson
Okay, the purpose is for Superman to be affected by the blunt force, not the magic accompanying it.

Hulk doesnt suffer from the magic, he bleeds from Uru smashing his face is what I meant.

Damborgson
Originally posted by abhilegend
Against Captain Marvel, he was taken by surprise.

Ares has oneshotted Thor by surprising him. Heck Skurge has done so. Sucker shots can do that.

Getting cut doesn't means getting koed. The wasp analog was inside his head distracting him when Viking basically cheapshotted him. Later Superman made Viking flee and was beating Viking and Monster (Hulk analog) combined while he was merged with Batman.

He also said element of surprise as what it did.

Superman said magic gave Cap an edge over him. Despite that, he caught his punch and threw him away like nothing.

Not quite a win there.

And if was after Superman had just ran through a gauntlet of supervillains. He endured Silver Banshee just fine earlier.

I can do a lot worse for Thor if I want.

Thor has equal speed to Superman. Not that he has his experience.

Vision isn't Superman and he is particularly susceptible to electrical attacks.

But he admits Surprise wasn't the only factor.

The scene where's he's cut is earlier in the fight. It shows his vulnerability which is the purpose. Were it just an axe, it likely wouldnt have cut him.

His performance after where he punches him once doesn't mean he doesn't have a magic vulnerability.

I don't see how that matters? He also switched him over to batman because he was having difficulties. (Lol) these instances are just to back up the magic vulnerability. Superman being tough doesnt change that, it just means he'll be particularly susceptible to them sometimes.

A gauntlet? Who? Mind controlled banshee and mind controlled Mongul? The real gauntlet comes after that iirc. And regardless, Superman straight up admits the magix was affecting him.

Do worse in what area, Thor doesn't have a magic vulnerability, if it knocks him out it was just the strength of the spell, not his,acceptability to spells.

No, Superman has equal speed to Thor. There's a difference.

Superman also wouldn't like a chunk of Uru in his chest and it didn't look like an electrical attack regardless.

cdtm
According to some writers (Like Busiek on CBR, against Pendaran and cohorts), he claimed Superman isn't especially weak at all. No more then Hulk, Batman, or Gladiator


He simply lacks magic resistances/immunities.

Basically, in his argument magic is something you can defend against, or you can't. And physical defenses are completely ignored by it.

So by virtue of being a purely physical brick, that makes him "weak against magic."


The take away is, if Hulk can power through an hammer blow or attack from Mjolnir, then so can Superman.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by cdtm
According to some writers (Like Busiek on CBR, against Pendaran and cohorts), he claimed Superman isn't especially weak at all. No more then Hulk, Batman, or Gladiator


He simply lacks magic resistances/immunities.

Basically, in his argument magic is something you can defend against, or you can't. And physical defenses are completely ignored by it.

So by virtue of being a purely physical brick, that makes him "weak against magic."


The take away is, if Hulk can power through an hammer blow or attack from Mjolnir, then so can Superman.
Yeah he wrote a nice little articlr today

cdtm
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah he wrote a nice little articlr today

The argument I'm talking about happened years ago. Left Pendaran unable to argue further then "I mean, it was nicely argued. But it's just one guys opinion."


But even better if there's something more recent (And verifiable, since CBR was also purged..)

leonidas
Originally posted by philosophia
But, see, I never used blitz, because that's not accurate. What he does is bullrush Thor, since, unless Damborg modifies his stipulations, Superman's flight speed is intact. He's not running towards Thor. So if it's a better vizualization, imagine we're standing 500m apart, and almost as soon as the bell rings I come to you in a F1 car at top speed, but with virtually instant acceleration and stop - only several times faster than that. It'd take me a fraction of a second to get to you , at which point separation from the hammer happens. That is, undoubtedly, the most simple and logical course of action based on the information Superman receives right at the start of the fight.

ah, i see. i think the issue is we're arguing under different understandings of the rules here. i'd assume that equal speed applies across the board--ie their flight speed is also the same meaning they could cover the same distance in the same amount of time. that would mean supes is attacking thor at thor speed. now, that can be pretty fast, but his acceleration is a LOT less than superman's in 99/100 cases. so this would be a relatively slow, easy to react to bullrush...

you're also assuming that supes would easily replicate glads feat of knocking the hammer away, but i'm not so sure it would be that easy. i mean how many battles against uber opponents had he fought and NOT had the hammer knocked away? i'm not sure the assumption that superman would do so is a given. then once he's reached thor, even if he does succeed, (get to him and knock away the hammer) it still isn't over. thor can effortlessly recall the hammer (and in this scenario it is by far the fastest thing on the field) and have it hit supes in the back (ala worthy thing) or he could summon lightning (which i do think would do damage to superman...some of those lightning feats are pretty impressive) to break up the ensuing wrestling match.



again, we're seeing the effectiveness of this bullrush differently. i def feel like thor would have time to decide whether to throw, spin or swat with the hammer. he's blocked laser fire easily enough and here superman would be bullrushing at far below light speed.



are these tactics you suggest possible? sure. do i see them being as effective as you do? no, you're right i don't. i mentioned knocking the hammer away already. he could, but as i said, it's not a given in my mind. could he grab thor's hand and beat him with the hammer? maybe, but again, while he's bullrushing? i just don't see it. in this bull rush scenario, i can see supes charging with hv, and thor spinning the hammer to block. i doubt he'd go for bfr that early, but he could and the portal is strong enough to suck in guys like nefaria, who is also stronger than thor and has caught a hammer blow. i'd guess superman would stop his charge when the hammer spun then it would come down to a more typical battle where the hammer's versatility would be the difference. /shrug



yep. and i think we have a different understanding of the rules too. thumb up

Stoic
Originally posted by cdtm
Indeed.

Like the Op said, this is just a way of shutting down the speed blitze and magic weakness arguments. The burdon of proof is on proving eithet can shut the other down, comic book style (So we can look at, say, Thor vs Gladiator or Count Nafaria. Or point to Superman vs non magic based versatility)

It's the way that all Superman versus threads should go. He fights a certain way in comics consistently, which should be more than enough for the auto speed blitz arguments to be done away with. Or, at least you would think so, but people tend to step into their heroes shoes, and while this is fine some of the time, it shouldn't be the core of their argument, or we would simply be arguing from a purely power set perspective, and leaving out the character. Shit if I were Superman, I'd take Krav Maga, and BJJ courses until I was a Grand Master in both, and use it on every opponent that I faced just for shits and giggles.

DarkSaint85
Speedsters get tagged due to PIS and CIS.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Speedsters get tagged due to PIS and CIS.

If a character were flying at you doing light speed, and you punched them directly in the face, beat up on them and won the fight, then turned around and did it to multiple speedy characters, it would mean that you could perceive them and react at light speed. Perhaps you have some type of esoteric innate ability to do these things?

I'm not here to try to make real world sense of comics book characters, because if I were, I'd begin with trying to understand how a character as strong as Wonder Woman would be any more susceptible to cutting attacks than she is to blunt force attacks. Then I'd have to question how Spiderman is able to lift 10 plus tons, yet isn't crushed beneath the weight due to his near (comic book) human durability.

The suspension of disbelief has been tossed out of the window too many times to rely on a set PIS or CIS ruling for a speedster being hit. They take it all too often to say that they wouldn't in a forum match against characters that have been seen repeatedly hitting speedsters. Leaning on this 100% of the time, would in turn make it seem as if we were bringing real world physics into a Looney Tunes universe in comparison to our own, in order to make sense of the senseless.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
If a character were flying at you doing light speed, and you punched them directly in the face, beat up on them and won the fight, then turned around and did it to multiple speedy characters, it would mean that you could perceive them and react at light speed. Perhaps you have some type of esoteric innate ability to do these things?

I'm not here to try to make real world sense of comics book characters, because if I were, I'd begin with trying to understand how a character as strong as Wonder Woman would be any more susceptible to cutting attacks than she is to blunt force attacks. Then I'd have to question how Spiderman is able to lift 10 plus tons, yet isn't crushed beneath the weight due to his near (comic book) human durability.

The suspension of disbelief has been tossed out of the window too many times to rely on a set PIS or CIS ruling for a speedster being hit. They take it all too often to say that they wouldn't in a forum match against characters that have been seen repeatedly hitting speedsters. Leaning on this 100% of the time, would in turn make it seem as if we were bringing real world physics into a Looney Tunes universe in comparison to our own, in order to make sense of the senseless.

thumb up that makes Batman FTL.

On top of that, he has herald level durability and stamina and intelligence.

And has done it multiple times in his career. Perhaps it's innate?

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb up that makes Batman FTL.

On top of that, he has herald level durability and stamina and intelligence.

And has done it multiple times in his career. Perhaps it's innate?

And that's why one should never put feats above common sense. wink

Of course, a high herald is much more likely to get the benefit of the doubt. And street levelers routinely do things no human has any business doing.

But when Captain America is beating the crap out of Hulk, I think it's safe to call shenanigans. Even if he did this every single week.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb up that makes Batman FTL.

On top of that, he has herald level durability and stamina and intelligence.

And has done it multiple times in his career. Perhaps it's innate?

he just hit a baseball pitched by Clark. it's not innate. it's his training. He timed it perfectly and hit the ball.

Originally posted by cdtm
And that's why one should never put feats above common sense. wink

Of course, a high herald is much more likely to get the benefit of the doubt. And street levelers routinely do things no human has any business doing.

But when Captain America is beating the crap out of Hulk, I think it's safe to call shenanigans. Even if he did this every single week.

No it simply means that he can take on threats of this caliber, with the exception of the Hulk not wanting to kill him.

JBL
It all boils down to superman fans not wanting superman to lose. No one here hates superman, people just get sick and tired of his fans thinking he's too fast, to strong, to smart to lose a fight, so they create their own version of the character. So when you debate them about superman, you are not debating the comic book superman, you are debating the made up version from his fans mind. And that version can never be beaten because he's all powerful to them.

-Pr-
Originally posted by JBL
It all boils down to superman fans not wanting superman to lose. No one here hates superman, people just get sick and tired of his fans thinking he's too fast, to strong, to smart to lose a fight, so they create their own version of the character. So when you debate them about superman, you are not debating the comic book superman, you are debating the made up version from his fans mind. And that version can never be beaten because he's all powerful to them.

Please don't bait. The lying is bad enough, but the baiting will get you banned.

Staying on topic is something everyone should do.

cdtm
Originally posted by Stoic
he just hit a baseball pitched by Clark. it's not innate. it's his training. He timed it perfectly and hit the ball.



No it simply means that he can take on threats of this caliber, with the exception of the Hulk not wanting to kill him.

Cao really shouldn't be hitting harder then Gladiator, Thor, or Abomination.

If they can't put him down, Cap sure shouldn't be able to.

Stoic
Originally posted by cdtm
Cao really shouldn't be hitting harder then Gladiator, Thor, or Abomination.

If they can't put him down, Cap sure shouldn't be able to.

The Hulk can be as weak as class 2 in case you weren't aware of this. His strength level directly affects his speed, durability, HF, perceptions, and any other physical characteristic that he possesses.

cdtm
Class 2?

Never seen a greenskin Savage version that was below 75. Cap's literally the first street leveler ever to KO him, as far as I've seen.

Stoic
Originally posted by cdtm
Class 2?

Never seen a greenskin Savage version that was below 75. Cap's literally the first street leveler ever to KO him, as far as I've seen.

The green Hulk has been as low as class 2. If you were to go way back to his very first meeting with the Thing, you will see that he lost his first fight. The Thing was only a class 3 at that time. Ben gets stronger with time as well. You'll notice that when he looked more like a mud man as opposed to his current brick looking form, he was far weaker. Under several writers, the Hulk took up to 5 long minutes to climb to class 100. So yeah, the Hulk can be this weak, it all depended on his emotional state, but now that he's dead and all...

Anyway, I don't want to derail the topic any further. Just wanted to say one more thing. Thanos has a long history of reacting to speedsters. It isn't PIS, or CIS, he can simply react to them. Gamora and other agile characters are different, they fight heavy weights by anticipating the big hit and evading.

cdtm
Iron Fist reacted to and countered speedsters.


I'll use that in a thread, but I'm not sure I'd honestly give him a majority over someone like Quicksilver, or possibly even Speed Demon..

Stoic
Originally posted by cdtm
Iron Fist reacted to and countered speedsters.


I'll use that in a thread, but I'm not sure I'd honestly give him a majority over someone like Quicksilver, or possibly even Speed Demon..

Maybe not them but I'd give Batman odds. Based on his feats and character, he has trained to not only anticipate things like this, but if his timing is right he may be able to make it an upset even against a speedster. Mind you, the odds would be against him. This isn't to say that batman would walk all over Iron Fist, or a peer. In my opinion it comes down to character, power set, might, and plot in that order. If not, then 90% of the Surfer's losses in fights were PIS. He should nearly never lose.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Stoic
It's the way that all Superman versus threads should go. He fights a certain way in comics consistently, which should be more than enough for the auto speed blitz arguments to be done away with. Or, at least you would think so, but people tend to step into their heroes shoes, and while this is fine some of the time, it shouldn't be the core of their argument, or we would simply be arguing from a purely power set perspective, and leaving out the character. Shit if I were Superman, I'd take Krav Maga, and BJJ courses until I was a Grand Master in both, and use it on every opponent that I faced just for shits and giggles.
There are plenty of instances where Superman has used his speed

It's far likely that he is going to be using speed rather than those silly arguments Silfer Surfer or Thor fans have pulled out of their asses...


It's like you expect Superman to use his speed, moreso, his entire power set every time he address the problem. It's called PIS and CIS. You wouldn't have a story if he did that.

CosmicComet
Timing cannot help you against people that see you in slow motion.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Damborgson
But he admits Surprise wasn't the only factor.


Surprise+magic. Surprise was the key though.

He always gets cut by magical weapons. His blunt force durability against magical objects is not that bad.

What? Cap punched him repeatedly.

It was all a feint to go to Luthor. When the timing was right, Superman knocked Cap out off panel and stole his clothes.

Both Superman and Batman threw the fight purposely.



You're acting like Banshee and Mongul are some lightweights.

Yes, it was absorbing his power which is what nightshade does. Thor isn't going to produce magical shadows which can absorb sunlight.



Blunt force trauma. It's Thor's weakness.

That doesn't mean Thor can use it as Superman does. Having power and having experience are two different things.

Yes it did. Thor wouldn't want his heart removed either.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
he just hit a baseball pitched by Clark. it's not innate. it's his training. He timed it perfectly and hit the ball.



No it simply means that he can take on threats of this caliber, with the exception of the Hulk not wanting to kill him.

He's also dodged HV...after it was fired. I have the scans. From a bloodlusted Superman trying to kill him.

Also, now imagine the baseball was sentient. And was rushing towards Batman (or Thor, in this case). Replace the bat with a magical hammer. This ball is magical, and can think for itself,and can change direction if it wanted to.

As Thor/Batman times it perfectly and swings his hammer/bat....the ball can see this. It can see the shoulder muscles shift, the weight transfer on the feet, the arc of the hammer/bat, all in slow motion.

And still gets hit.

This implies Batman/Thor were faster than the ball. That the ball saw the swing coming, and was either unable to react in time, or, perversely, was able to react but didn't WANT to. The ball wanted to get hit.

That's what the arguments are boiling down to.

Damborgson
Originally posted by abhilegend
Surprise+magic. Surprise was the key though.

He always gets cut by magical weapons. His blunt force durability against magical objects is not that bad.

What? Cap punched him repeatedly.

It was all a feint to go to Luthor. When the timing was right, Superman knocked Cap out off panel and stole his clothes.

Both Superman and Batman threw the fight purposely.



You're acting like Banshee and Mongul are some lightweights.

Yes, it was absorbing his power which is what nightshade does. Thor isn't going to produce magical shadows which can absorb sunlight.



Blunt force trauma. It's Thor's weakness.

That doesn't mean Thor can use it as Superman does. Having power and having experience are two different things.

Yes it did. Thor wouldn't want his heart removed either.

Okay, so you agree magic was a factor. I agree surprise was a factor. thumb up

Okay, you're agreeing again, this is good thumb up

I meant against Viking in the rematch, that Superman punched him once before heating up his axe.

Nope, you can't prove that. The knockout was almost certainly a feint, but Superman's interior monologue of Captain Marvel's magic bothering him in blunt force hand to hand combat was a feint? Highly unlikely, and not provable.

No, I mean that his fights with them mind controlled didn't damage him enough for Nightshade's magic to be helped along by his exhaustion. Obviously beating them was great still.

....I'm going to assume you're not quite understanding me. Superman's speed in this thread? Same as Thor's. That means at the level of speed that Thor operates at. That means no heart removing, not that he's ever done that (iirc) but still.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
ah, i see. i think the issue is we're arguing under different understandings of the rules here. i'd assume that equal speed applies across the board--ie their flight speed is also the same meaning they could cover the same distance in the same amount of time. that would mean supes is attacking thor at thor speed. now, that can be pretty fast, but his acceleration is a LOT less than superman's in 99/100 cases. so this would be a relatively slow, easy to react to bullrush...

you're also assuming that supes would easily replicate glads feat of knocking the hammer away, but i'm not so sure it would be that easy. i mean how many battles against uber opponents had he fought and NOT had the hammer knocked away? i'm not sure the assumption that superman would do so is a given. then once he's reached thor, even if he does succeed, (get to him and knock away the hammer) it still isn't over. thor can effortlessly recall the hammer (and in this scenario it is by far the fastest thing on the field) and have it hit supes in the back (ala worthy thing) or he could summon lightning (which i do think would do damage to superman...some of those lightning feats are pretty impressive) to break up the ensuing wrestling match.



again, we're seeing the effectiveness of this bullrush differently. i def feel like thor would have time to decide whether to throw, spin or swat with the hammer. he's blocked laser fire easily enough and here superman would be bullrushing at far below light speed.



are these tactics you suggest possible? sure. do i see them being as effective as you do? no, you're right i don't. i mentioned knocking the hammer away already. he could, but as i said, it's not a given in my mind. could he grab thor's hand and beat him with the hammer? maybe, but again, while he's bullrushing? i just don't see it. in this bull rush scenario, i can see supes charging with hv, and thor spinning the hammer to block. i doubt he'd go for bfr that early, but he could and the portal is strong enough to suck in guys like nefaria, who is also stronger than thor and has caught a hammer blow. i'd guess superman would stop his charge when the hammer spun then it would come down to a more typical battle where the hammer's versatility would be the difference. /shrug



yep. and i think we have a different understanding of the rules too. thumb up

I'm going to need Damborg to clarify, but it wouldn't make sense for them to have the same acceleration, considering their modes of propulsion are vastly different - one being pure-flying thought based, and the other being hammer swinging based. Damborg, does your OP refer to flight, too, or is that unaffected? Furthermore, you just said Mjolnir, which Thor uses to fly, is the fastest thing on the field, when Superman's flight speed and Thor's are according to your interpretation equalized. That sounds like an inconsistency.

If what Damborg wants is for their top speed to be the same, well, then it wouldn't make any difference. Both of their flying speed is faster than light, and in the short distance they start from each other, neither of them would be able to go their top speed without not knowing when to stop. So for all intents and purposes, when they start, both of them can cover the battleground at low-machs, at most. It's only when my position of separating Thor from the hammer and dragging him by his neck to the sun that he can use the full FTL flight speed. Unless Thor starts flying away and not towards Superman , then him flying towards Superman would only serve Clark since he is the one who wants to close the distance.

I don't see why we should dismiss Gladiator, when he's one of the few that has straight up gone for separating Thor from the hammer and has successfully done so and he's a pale Superman imitation as well. And in this match, we have Superman, who breaks the wrist of Thor-level opponents by squeezing:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111148187/4019493-5135609417-wonde.jpg

I think you're also overestimating how hard it is to make Thor drop the hammer, even when you're not specifically aiming for his grip.

Count Nefaria another Superman clone] has done it inadvertently:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsCountNefaria06.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515673564367

Beta Ray Bill has done it:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsBetaRayBill01337.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515673183406

And again:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsBetaRayBill07.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515673255837

Hulk:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsHulk07.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515685503596

Rulk made him his *****:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsRulk06.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515686204208

Loki:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsLoki19Thor207.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515686090783

etc.
I could go on, these are just what I could get my hands on at work.

Superman wouldn't give him time to pick it back up/call it back at him. He'd straight out grab him and heat vision his eyes dead towards the sun. Those moments he has no Mjolnir, he's defenseless. And Superman is sporting surgical heat vision capable of one-shotting trans-tier opponents and more.

Most of these examples are the opponents not even focusing on making him dropping the hammer. To actually want to do that, and hitting specifically for that purpose? Well, poor man's Superman, Gladiator, already showed it.

Superman would make Thor drop the hammer. The only question is what Thor can do to keep Superman at a distance, when he has only a few moments before Superman gets close and the match is done.

I agree that Thor would have time to throw, spin, or swat the hammer. Problem is that if he spins and misses , he's dead before it gets back to him, since Superman will grab and kill him. If he spins it to block heat vision ? It practically invites Superman to get up close, grab him and game over. If he tries to hit Superman with it? Palming it. Or freezing him still. Or heat visioning his eyes/brain. Superman can grab his hands and either start hitting him with it, or straight up freezing his insides, burning him, headbutting him into unconsciousness, flying him to the sun etc. Even IF Thor's literal only action is creating a portal, and Clark is kind enough not to burn his eyes as he does it, it won't be sucking Superman in, not when he can fly out of black holes.

I feel we're ignoring the fact that Thor here is majorly dependent on Mjolnir for both offense and defense, and he gets trashed the moment Superman gets an opening, which is 1 second within the fight unless Thor does...something, that is yet undefined. If he blocks HV, he can't throw it. If he throws it, and misses, Superman bullrushes him dead. Superman could just flood the field with super-breath, and Thor wouldn't even know where he's coming from. If he stands his ground, Superman has a shitload of options of beating him up close.

To cut this short:
How do you imagine the fight "choreography" and why? Way I see it, almost any course of action, certainly a large majority of them, end up with Thor dead when Superman gets close

carver9
I see Batman is brought up again. Seems like he is the pedestal for when a character trait is being debated against. Mainly DC characters.

DarkSaint85
Haha sure,I can do others.

Every single psychic in Marvel. Invisible Woman. Storm. Cyclops.

Basically, I can post scans of every 'human' level character doing things no normal human can do. Shall we use Punisher? Bullseye? Daredevil?

Hey, what about Kingpin?

IOW, it's not a DC/Marvel thing.

Batman is used, because DC has a lot of speedsters, and they focus on them.

Let's stay on topic, right? Thor. He has reacted to lightspeed attacks. Ergo, he has lightspeed reactions.

Fair enough.

How about Wolverine? He outsped Thor. Whilst mocking him. If he can do that to lightspeed Thor....

And he has done it to many a character, who we say have enhanced reactions. Hulk, Glads, Thanos (I'm sure....)...the list is long.

So has Cap.

Many times.

So by these logics, of using battle feats....yeah, Batman has been named. I note no rebuttal came. But I could've named others.

cdtm
What's the floor made of? Is it indestructible?

Superman's used gurilla tactics before. Against Krypronite powered Conduit. Flanked him, and let loose with a heat vision barrage.

So if Thor breaks out a godblast or portal, Superman doesn't need super speed to create a trench and dig his way behind Thor.

Philosophía
Originally posted by cdtm
What's the floor made of? Is it indestructible?

Superman's used gurilla tactics before. Against Krypronite powered Conduit. Flanked him, and let loose with a heat vision barrage.

So if Thor breaks out a godblast or portal, Superman doesn't need super speed to create a trench and dig his way behind Thor.

He could troll Thor and just bounce his heat vision off of satellites and whatnot, without Thor knowing where it's coming from:
http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i436/KMCPhilosophia/hvsatelliteprecision.jpg?hotlinkfix=1515692177088

Or scream "puny god" at him until he's numb:
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/cGF0aDovc3Vic29uaWNidXJzdDEuanBn/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1515692624068
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/cGF0aDovc3Vic29uaWNidXJzdDIuanBn/?ref=&hotlinkfix=1515692639519

xJLxKing
Lmao Philosophia

Damborgson
Originally posted by cdtm
What's the floor made of? Is it indestructible?

Superman's used gurilla tactics before. Against Krypronite powered Conduit. Flanked him, and let loose with a heat vision barrage.

So if Thor breaks out a godblast or portal, Superman doesn't need super speed to create a trench and dig his way behind Thor.

With those types of tactics he'll be giving mole man a run for his money thumb up

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Haha sure,I can do others.

Every single psychic in Marvel. Invisible Woman. Storm. Cyclops.

Basically, I can post scans of every 'human' level character doing things no normal human can do. Shall we use Punisher? Bullseye? Daredevil?

Hey, what about Kingpin?

IOW, it's not a DC/Marvel thing.

Batman is used, because DC has a lot of speedsters, and they focus on them.

Let's stay on topic, right? Thor. He has reacted to lightspeed attacks. Ergo, he has lightspeed reactions.

Fair enough.

How about Wolverine? He outsped Thor. Whilst mocking him. If he can do that to lightspeed Thor....

And he has done it to many a character, who we say have enhanced reactions. Hulk, Glads, Thanos (I'm sure....)...the list is long.

So has Cap.

Many times.

So by these logics, of using battle feats....yeah, Batman has been named. I note no rebuttal came. But I could've named others.

I understand what youre saying Dark but at the end of the day, youre debating powerset and it just does not work like that and if anything, its the worst thing you should want to mention in a thread like this where speed is equalized and Thor being one of the most versatile characters in comics. Thor throws Mjlonir, let it beat Superman to death while he throws lightning bolts that has blasted through Chaos King and throw blitz punches at Superman dome piece. Thor wins 10/10. Can we agree on this?

cdtm
Originally posted by carver9
I understand what youre saying Dark but at the end of the day, youre debating powerset and it just does not work like that and if anything, its the worst thing you should want to mention in a thread like this where speed is equalized and Thor being one of the most versatile characters in comics. Thor throws Mjlonir, let it beat Superman to death while he throws lightning bolts that has blasted through Chaos King and throw blitz punches at Superman dome piece. Thor wins 10/10. Can we agree on this?

Without Mjolnir and equalized speed, Superman takes Thor out with heat vision.

Or simply leads Mjolnir into Thor's face, since they're equally fast.

krisblaze
Not even you believe that.

cdtm
Originally posted by krisblaze
Not even you believe that.

Believe what?

Without the hammer, Thor can't block the hv. And Kryptonian level hv is strong enough to KO Superman himself, at its best. Supes took down Despero with it.

xJLxKing

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
I understand what youre saying Dark but at the end of the day, youre debating powerset and it just does not work like that and if anything, its the worst thing you should want to mention in a thread like this where speed is equalized and Thor being one of the most versatile characters in comics. Thor throws Mjlonir, let it beat Superman to death while he throws lightning bolts that has blasted through Chaos King and throw blitz punches at Superman dome piece. Thor wins 10/10. Can we agree on this?

No, I'm NOT debating powerset. I'm actually debating character.

I've said this, many many many times.

Barry Allen, as an example.

If I just debated powerset, Pietro would be the same.

BUT: Barry LOVES using his intellect. He's a forensic scientist, a guy who's so good at his job, his entire department cuts him ferocious amounts of slack. Imagine if you did what he did - left work suddenly, came in late, left early everytime a monster attacked, didn't do your cases etc...how long before you were fired?

He loves solving mysteries:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RNx7pPo6cn8/WjERDjNsM_I/AAAAAAAAAVc/DFl-Td-DjK48iJ6NydlsCZQnxR0zt_4MgCHMYCw/s1600/RCO004.jpg

So, in character, he uses his brain. He does it so well, even Batman, when they first met, complimented him - telling him he did a great job.

In character, he doesn't like being hit.

So...IN CHARACTER, he will use his speed to not get hit.

Superman too, doesn't like throwing down. If it can be solved quickly, he will do it. He doesn't like drawn out physical punchfests IF HE CAN HELP IT. He would try BFR, he would try HV, all of it.

Now, let's look at Thor. In character, what is he like?

Hulk. In character, does he throw out his more exotic powers? Or does he SMASH?

In a way, I guess you're right. I AM debating powersets. The powers I am specifically focusing on, are superintelligence and superspeed.

Here, Thor has neither.

Superman has superintelligence.

I mean, I don't have superintelligence. But even I would avoid getting hit if I can help it.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman has superintelligence.


http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.hitfix.com/assets/5649/batman.gif

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.hitfix.com/assets/5649/batman.gif

Compared to Thor.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/1/16715/3186530-thorlol.png

StiltmanFTW
laughing

Okay, okay. You win this round.

ShadowFyre
Just now really looking at this one. Are the last 7 pages worth reading or is it just a big shitstorm that follows every Thor vs. Supes thread.?

cdtm
Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Just now really looking at this one. Are the last 7 pages worth reading or is it just a big shitstorm that follows every Thor vs. Supes thread.?

It's about what you'd expect.

Get ready to read a lot of fanboy posts, amid a tiny minority of level headed fans like myself who know Superman beats a thousand Rune King Thor's with a glance. thumb up

abhilegend
Originally posted by Damborgson
Okay, so you agree magic was a factor. I agree surprise was a factor. thumb up


So Thor is cheapshotting Superman here?

mmm

And?

Bothering him and he still caught his punch and threw him away after Cap suckerpunched him.

All the while being weakened by a kryptonite meteor.

Not good for your argument. It just shows magic isn't auto win against Superman.

And here I thought Banshee could've beaten him with magic by your logic.

Thor has the same speed, he don't know how to turn intangible.

He has shattered Cyborg Superman into pieces using speed. Does that count?

Damborgson
Originally posted by abhilegend
So Thor is cheapshotting Superman here?

mmm

And?

Bothering him and he still caught his punch and threw him away after Cap suckerpunched him.

All the while being weakened by a kryptonite meteor.

Not good for your argument. It just shows magic isn't auto win against Superman.

And here I thought Banshee could've beaten him with magic by your logic.

Thor has the same speed, he don't know how to turn intangible.

He has shattered Cyborg Superman into pieces using speed. Does that count?

You go ahead and quote where I said magic was an auto win. I said it was a vulnerability, you said it wasn't. I showed you why that's not true.

We might be having a language barrier though. A lot of your response didn't synch up. I will say this one last time: For purposes of the thread, Superman has the same speed as Thor. So unless you think Thor is so fast he can vibrate someone's heart out, what you're saying it not making sense lol.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Damborgson
You go ahead and quote where I said magic was an auto win. I said it was a vulnerability, you said it wasn't. I showed you why that's not true.

We might be having a language barrier though. A lot of your response didn't synch up. I will say this one last time: For purposes of the thread, Superman has the same speed as Thor. So unless you think Thor is so fast he can vibrate someone's heart out, what you're saying it not making sense lol. thumb up

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, I'm NOT debating powerset. I'm actually debating character.

I've said this, many many many times.

Barry Allen, as an example.

If I just debated powerset, Pietro would be the same.

BUT: Barry LOVES using his intellect. He's a forensic scientist, a guy who's so good at his job, his entire department cuts him ferocious amounts of slack. Imagine if you did what he did - left work suddenly, came in late, left early everytime a monster attacked, didn't do your cases etc...how long before you were fired?

He loves solving mysteries:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RNx7pPo6cn8/WjERDjNsM_I/AAAAAAAAAVc/DFl-Td-DjK48iJ6NydlsCZQnxR0zt_4MgCHMYCw/s1600/RCO004.jpg

So, in character, he uses his brain. He does it so well, even Batman, when they first met, complimented him - telling him he did a great job.

In character, he doesn't like being hit.

So...IN CHARACTER, he will use his speed to not get hit.

Superman too, doesn't like throwing down. If it can be solved quickly, he will do it. He doesn't like drawn out physical punchfests IF HE CAN HELP IT. He would try BFR, he would try HV, all of it.

Now, let's look at Thor. In character, what is he like?

Hulk. In character, does he throw out his more exotic powers? Or does he SMASH?

In a way, I guess you're right. I AM debating powersets. The powers I am specifically focusing on, are superintelligence and superspeed.

Here, Thor has neither.

Superman has superintelligence.

I mean, I don't have superintelligence. But even I would avoid getting hit if I can help it.

You have to be debating power set though because 95% of the time, Superman is getting hit in combat. Surfer has Super intelligence but no one uses him in the fashion you're trying to use Supes. If you are ignoring what happens in comics and making up a fighting tactic for Superman then yes, you are debating power set, sorry.

carver9
You posting scans of him solving puzzles at super speed doesn't take away that Konvikt has rocked him, Grundy, Darkseid, hell, let's just say every brick he has went fist cuff with has decked him. Super intelligence but he let Kalibak no him.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
You posting scans of him solving puzzles at super speed doesn't take away that Konvikt has rocked him, Grundy, Darkseid, hell, let's just say every brick he has went fist cuff with has decked him. Super intelligence but he let Kalibak no him.

Exactly.

PIS.

Why else would he get hit? He's smart. He has speed. Hell, I'm not smart, and I'd still avoid getting hit if I can help it.

If I had speed? I'd def avoid it.

So your arguments devolve to: he has speed for everything else, except for this.

It's like me using Hulk, and saying his fighting strength is different from his lifting strength.

Reed's physics intelligence is different from his maths intelligence.

Every single time Superman has been tagged by a slower opponent, it's PIS. It's just simple logic. The opponent is slower. Therefore, he can't hit him. If he does, it's for the plot.

Just like every street leveller is magically able to keep up with heralds, rather than disappearing in a puff of blood soaked mist.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Exactly.

PIS.

Why else would he get hit? He's smart. He has speed. Hell, I'm not smart, and I'd still avoid getting hit if I can help it.

If I had speed? I'd def avoid it.

So your arguments devolve to: he has speed for everything else, except for this.

It's like me using Hulk, and saying his fighting strength is different from his lifting strength.

Reed's physics intelligence is different from his maths intelligence.

Every single time Superman has been tagged by a slower opponent, it's PIS. It's just simple logic. The opponent is slower. Therefore, he can't hit him. If he does, it's for the plot.

Just like every street leveller is magically able to keep up with heralds, rather than disappearing in a puff of blood soaked mist.

So you're saying Thor is too dumb to know how to use the abilities he's shown on panel? Surfer is too dumb to go intangible against Superman, use his cosmic awareness and create a thing of Kryptonite in his brain? You keep bringing up super intelligence but what does that have to do with someone having an ability and either use it or not use it? It doesn't make sense. It's like saying Cyclops is too dumb to use optic blast. Are we in agreement that Thor pulls 10/10 here by throwing Mjlonir letting it battle Superman while he assist with throwing super speed punches and spamming with with chaos king level lightning? I thought of this and I am not close to being as fluent with Thor abilities as he is or does this tactic take super intelligence as well?

You are clearly ignoring on panel evidence to support your argument.

quanchi112
Originally posted by carver9
You posting scans of him solving puzzles at super speed doesn't take away that Konvikt has rocked him, Grundy, Darkseid, hell, let's just say every brick he has went fist cuff with has decked him. Super intelligence but he let Kalibak no him. He uses double standards and truly believes he's justified. Pay him no mind. Pis is also silly because it gives the reader the ability to pick and choose what they feel counts. My way is the only fair way. Follow me carver into the promised land of objectivity.

-Pr-
Might want to mind the hypocrisy and the personal stuff, guys.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by quanchi112
My way is the only fair way. Follow me carver into the promised land of objectivity.

DON'T DO IT CARVER!!!

carver9
Quan, show me the way.

quanchi112
Originally posted by carver9
Quan, show me the way.

Skywalker is a metaphor for DC fans, carver. Do not let them return. Smite them.



You are my Hux, carver.
http://i.imgur.com/FhiL30P.jpg

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
So you're saying Thor is too dumb to know how to use the abilities he's shown on panel? Surfer is too dumb to go intangible against Superman, use his cosmic awareness and create a thing of Kryptonite in his brain? You keep bringing up super intelligence but what does that have to do with someone having an ability and either use it or not use it? It doesn't make sense. It's like saying Cyclops is too dumb to use optic blast. Are we in agreement that Thor pulls 10/10 here by throwing Mjlonir letting it battle Superman while he assist with throwing super speed punches and spamming with with chaos king level lightning? I thought of this and I am not close to being as fluent with Thor abilities as he is or does this tactic take super intelligence as well?

You are clearly ignoring on panel evidence to support your argument.

Throwin Mjolnir and letting it fight for him.....on panel, he has admitted it has never flown for him like it does for Jane.

So no, that ain't happening (assuming it's male Thor).

So that alone shows that....well, you DID talk about your intelligence, lol. But you're trying the one tactic that would probably not work lmao.

<< THERE IS MORE FROM THIS THREAD HERE >>