Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



SquallX

Adam_PoE
If the U.S. government allows a couple to immigrate to this country, and their son, who is born here, does not support the American values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, can we send him back to their country of origin?

If he cares so much about how other people want to present themselves, maybe he would be happier living somewhere with a lot less freedom.

BackFire
It's only a life altering decision if they lop their dick off or alter their body in some way. Otherwise they can freely revert back to the other gender if they want, nothing stopping them.

SquallX

Scribble
Originally posted by BackFire
It's only a life altering decision if they lop their dick off or alter their body in some way. Otherwise they can freely revert back to the other gender if they want, nothing stopping them. This.

dadudemon

SquallX
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes to all.


However, as I've said before, I think people should have to take tests to get a "sex card" that proves that they are developed enough, emotionally, to meet an minimum standard that would be set for normal adults. Likely, such a license would bar many adults from being able to consent. However, such a license may result in extreme geniuses, who are children, to be able to pass.


Agree.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by BackFire
It's only a life altering decision if they lop their dick off or alter their body in some way. Otherwise they can freely revert back to the other gender if they want, nothing stopping them.

Not all transgender people experience dysphoria. Meaning that some transgender people do not seek any medical interventions at all. No cross-hormone therapy, no sex-reassignment surgeries, nothing. Many are content to dress and present themselves in a way that is consistent with how they identify.

That is why this is such a non-issue. Nobody is letting children alter their bodies. They have to wait until they are adults, and they need the written permission of multiple psychologists.

What this boils down to is people uncomfortable with children cross-dressing. These same people used to believe that if girls and women were allowed to wear pants, they would become lesbians or transmen. It is ridiculous. It is as if they believe clothes have magic powers.

At the end of the day, what we classify as "boys clothes" and "girls clothes" are as arbitrary as social distinctions between boys and girls themselves. There is nothing about a skirt that makes it "for girls," other than because we say so. And like any arbitrary standard, we could just a easily say the opposite.

People who cross-dress are exposing the arbitrary nature of the rules about gender, and it makes people who are not certain of who they are outside of that framework uncomfortable. If you are secure in who you are as a person, shifting definitions of what is acceptable does not shake your foundations, let alone to the point that you double-down lest your house of cards come tumbling down.

Robtard

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by Robtard
Curious, you didn't choose your male gender as a kid?

White people don't choose their race, but you still ostracize them.

Robtard
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
White people don't choose their race, but you still ostracize them.

Trying way too hard now, kiddo.

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Not all transgender people experience dysphoria. Meaning that some transgender people do not seek any medical interventions at all. No cross-hormone therapy, no sex-reassignment surgeries, nothing. Many are content to dress and present themselves in a way that is consistent with how they identify.

That is why this is such a non-issue. Nobody is letting children alter their bodies. They have to wait until they are adults, and they need the written permission of multiple psychologists.

What this boils down to is people uncomfortable with children cross-dressing. These same people used to believe that if girls and women were allowed to wear pants, they would become lesbians or transmen. It is ridiculous. It is as if they believe clothes have magic powers.

At the end of the day, what we classify as "boys clothes" and "girls clothes" are as arbitrary as social distinctions between boys and girls themselves. There is nothing about a skirt that makes it "for girls," other than because we say so. And like any arbitrary standard, we could just a easily say the opposite.

People who cross-dress are exposing the arbitrary nature of the rules about gender, and it makes people who are not certain of who they are outside of that framework uncomfortable. If you are secure in who you are as a person, shifting definitions of what is acceptable does not shake your foundations, let alone to the point that you double-down lest your house of cards come tumbling down. To me I am uncomfortable mainly with the fact that transgender people are literally the only group who, when they do experience body dysmorphia, we as a society essentially cosign their delusional fixation with "being born in the wrong body" and even encourage them to medically alter themselves. Children or not it's pretty ****ed, tbh. It's the most extreme example I can think of where when we see someone suffering a delusion and instead of trying to steer them back towards reality, we double down on the delusion. I'm not at all convinced that in 100 years humanity wont look back at sex reassignment surgery with the same sort of cringe that we look back on the failed pseudo scientific medical cures of the past ( lobotomies, blood letting, etc etc).

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
To me I am uncomfortable mainly with the fact that transgender people are literally the only group who, when they do experience body dysmorphia, we as a society essentially cosign their delusional fixation with "being born in the wrong body" and even encourage them to medically alter themselves. Children or not it's pretty ****ed, tbh. It's the most extreme example I can think of where when we see someone suffering a delusion and instead of trying to steer them back towards reality, we double down on the delusion. I'm not at all convinced that in 100 years humanity wont look back at sex reassignment surgery with the same sort of cringe that we look back on the failed pseudo scientific medical cures of the past ( lobotomies, blood letting, etc etc).

I do not happen to think cosmetic procedures are a good treatment for dysphoria of any kind. However, psychology is more concerned with doing what works, and in the case of people experience extreme dysphoria, to the point they are suicidal, cosmetic procedures, while not ideal, can often be effective. It is certainly preferable to the alternative, which is a dead patient.

Afro Cheese
Yet post op trans people have just as high a suicide rate as pre-op trans people. I feel for them, I don't know what the answer is. But yea.. the fact that even our psychologists are accepting the idea that someone can be "born into the wrong sex" makes me extremely nervous. Like let's say some hormonal flush in the womb is the cause, for example. Isn't the correct conclusion to draw then not that the person was born in the wrong body, but with a deformed brain? Wouldn't preventing the deformity (if possible) be the ultimate ideal solution to such a problem?

Adam_PoE

SquallX

Robtard
I asked you a question which you didn't really answer then you built a nice strawman-like argument for me. Okay then.

ps Trump called Haiti a "shithole country" and by extension its people as he doesn't want Haitians immigrating.

Afro Cheese
That seems like pure conjecture on your part, but even if it's true, wouldn't that still mean the surgery DOESN'T solve the problem of "a dead patient" since they still end up with the same % of dead patients?

I'm saying if it were possible to prevent the "hormonal flush" or whatever it is that causes the person to become transgender in the first place.

SquallX

DarthSkywalker0
Adam is actually 100% right here. If we use the study where this stat comes from you will also find that when you inculcate trans people into society early by cross-dressing, their suicide rates drop severely.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
That seems like pure conjecture on your part, but even if it's true, wouldn't that still mean the surgery DOESN'T solve the problem of "a dead patient" since they still end up with the same % of dead patients?

It is not conjecture. That is the finding of the psychiatric literature. Moreover, where are you getting this notion that the suicide rate remains the same whether dysphoria is treated surgically or not? If it was not a net benefit for a plurality of patients, it would not be a recommended course of treatment.

Adam_PoE
Then by your own reasoning, children who cross-dress will grow out of it too, so what the **** are you so worried about?






Wait a minute, your parents let you dress as a superhero when you were a child! If a 9-year-old can choose to wear a cape, then by your reasoning, that is no different than a parent allowing him to have sex. Do you realize how stupid you sound? Those things have nothing to do with each other.

Adam_PoE
No one chooses their gender, that is the entire point. People who are trans are born with a sex/gender incongruity. Hence, why they seek to change one or the other to bring them into alignment.






You do not dictate the terms by which others post.






So to be clear, Trump said you are an immigrant from a shithole country and he wants to deport you, and you still support him.

snowdragon
I don't know about you guys but I always feel so sexy when I wear my kilt happy

Robtard

dadudemon
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Adam is actually 100% right here. If we use the study where this stat comes from you will also find that when you inculcate trans people into society early by cross-dressing, their suicide rates drop severely.
What? Really? Nice.


Citation?

Robtard
The early onset boy-to-girl dressing-up is something that isn't all that uncommon in the Philippines, least I was told this by more than one Filipino. I don't think trans people are offing themselves in droves over their either. So it does seem the earlier one feels accepted as how they see themselves, the less likely they're to feel as outcasts.

Maybe this has changed, as I was told this 10+ years ago.

edit: In fact, you're in a position to add weight to this, DDM. Edit2: I'm not implying that DDM is a Filipino trans gender

SquallX

Robtard
Squall, if you didn't choose your own male gender, why do you think someone who is born physically with a penis but feels they're a female internally chose theirs?

MythLord
Yeah, I agree with the notion that as long as no body-altering harm is done, the child can make believe as they wish.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, I agree with the notion that as long as no body-altering harm is done, the child can make believe as they wish.

Bit of a diff between "Make Believe" and "Believing its Real".

MythLord
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Bit of a diff between "Make Believe" and "Believing its Real".

If it's a phase, and no harm is done, I again don't see any real problem.

Adam_PoE
Really? Is there anything your parents and "those in power" could have done to convince you that you were a girl?

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It is not conjecture. That is the finding of the psychiatric literature. Moreover, where are you getting this notion that the suicide rate remains the same whether dysphoria is treated surgically or not? If it was not a net benefit for a plurality of patients, it would not be a recommended course of treatment. That's what I had read somewhere. If it's true what DarthSkywalker said then I am open to it... though I would like to see the citation. If nobody posts one I will try to look it up myself.

But assuming it does reduce the suicide rate I am no necessarily opposed to sex reassignment. Hell, even if it doesn't I'm not trying to tell people what they can or can't do with their own bodies. It just makes me nervous is all. Just like I wouldn't tell people not to get a boob job... something about it strikes me as them just failing to find contentment with their real bodies. It's a sort of tricky subject though since it seems less controversial if they have an obvious deformity which they seek to correct through cosmetic surgery. But when it's just a matter of they would rather have huge breasts etc... it seems like a slippery slope to me. Virtually all of us have things about our looks/bodies that we might like to change. At what point do you just learn to accept what you were born with?

But I'm still curious to hear anyone answer my hypothetical question: if it were possible at some point to prevent someone from being transgender in the first place by preventing whatever it is in the womb that causes the condition, would that not be the ideal solution? Or would we shy away from that because it seems to suggest that being transgender is actually a sort of birth defect/deformity? In other words, part of what makes me nervous about the whole transgender thing in modern society is I get the feeling we are sometimes more beholden to emotion than to facts, or to ideology rather than to science. We will seek out answers that seem more "accepting" because that reflects our modern values. And to be clear, I do hold those values in high regard. I don't want to make life any harder for any marginalized group than it needs to be. But I also hold the ideals of scientific reasoning and objectivity in high regard.

So I tend to wonder about where this is all heading. Is this not a first step towards the path of also accepting things like "trans-racial," "trans-species," etc. I know many will decry this as a slippery slope fallacy, but it seems to me that's the direction it's going. Broader acceptance of different sexual orientations has allowed room for things like furries, objective sexuals, etc to gain acceptance alongside gays and lesbians. Once you apply the logic of acceptance and normalization to one group, it gets more and more difficult and hypocritical to deny it to other, more obscure groups.

Also... with regard to children... It seems to me there is a decent argument to be made that if you start the intervention before or as soon as puberty begins it will be more effective. So if we normalize the idea of transgender children it doesn't seem like a huge leap to think that could eventually lead to the emergence of children starting the physical transition phase as preteens rather than as adults. It might just require parental consent... and in the modern era I don't find it too hard to believe there are parents who would offer that consent.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
. . . something about it strikes me as them just failing to find contentment with their real bodies. . . . Virtually all of us have things about our looks/bodies that we might like to change. At what point do you just learn to accept what you were born with?

Why accept something when you do not have to?

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by dadudemon
What? Really? Nice.


Citation?

It's a study conducted at UCLA.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Emperordmb
crossdressing is one thing... hormones, puberty blockers, surgery? **** no

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Why accept something when you do not have to? It's the same thing you were saying about expectations... instead of assuming happiness is at the other side of a boob job, just stop fixating on the idea that your well-being depends on changing something that doesn't necessarily need to be changed.

So no answer to my hypothetical question?

Flyattractor
Originally posted by Emperordmb
crossdressing is one thing... hormones, puberty blockers, surgery? **** no

I thought the current Leftist Scientific Thought was that all you needed to change your SEX was The Power of...

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/705/367/845.gif

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
It's the same thing you were saying about expectations... instead of assuming happiness is at the other side of a boob job, just stop fixating on the idea that your well-being depends on changing something that doesn't necessarily need to be changed.

So no answer to my hypothetical question?

Because sometimes happiness is at the other side of a boob job.

hlyK-4gUeYs

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I do not happen to think cosmetic procedures are a good treatment for dysphoria of any kind. Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Because sometimes happiness is at the other side of a boob job.

hlyK-4gUeYs interesting....

Surtur
Originally posted by BackFire
It's only a life altering decision if they lop their dick off

I refer to those folk as "male amputee's".

dadudemon
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
It's a study conducted at UCLA.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Thank you. I will read this tonight. thumb up

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.