BFR with no possibility of returning in a reasonable time is a loss
Opening + 2 posts
Posters are in full control of the characters
Smurph Final Post
Time to wrap up this showdown.
My argument this match has been simple: Emma's quickest path to victory is faster, simpler, and infinitely more battletested than Sue's. All that Emma needs to do is think 'STOP!'
At that point, Sue's shields will fall. How do we know that?
A) Because they require concentration:
and B), because this exact situation has happened before:
Can Susan do damage to Emma? Of course, if given the chance. What this match turns on, however, is whether she's likely to get that damage done before Emma thinks a single thought. Because in contrast to my single thought, Darksaint had Sue execute a multi-step, multi-pronged attack/defense plan. He's insisted that it's not complicated, but complicated is a relative term. Sue's actions might seem simple enough on paper, but she's effectively drawing a gun and loading it, while Emma already has a bullet aimed at her head from the moment the match starts. Even if Sue's gun is simple and fast, she's fighting an uphill battle.
Emma, meanwhile, is not short on speed feats. I want to emphasize that the speed that matters here is not physical reaction, but speed of thought, and it's clear that Emma thinks very quickly:
Instantly downloads a skill into Rachel's brain
Seemlessly interrupts Shaw's bullrush with a complex illusion:
Instantly switches to diamond form:
Emma's a high end comic book telepath, and so her attacks happen as soon as she thinks them. That was the point of the Quicksilver scan. Quicksilver casually speedblitzes precog telepaths, and Emma actually announces that she's about to freeze him in place, and then it happens, before he can finish blitzing Magneto.
And here, Emma's thoughts intercept an attack on Cyclops by the Phoenix. This is the speed at which she can attack Invisible Woman:
I don't need to prove that Emma is factually faster than Invisible Woman. My only goal is to show that Emma's attack would happen faster than Sue's, and so it matters that Emma is using an attack that is her bread and butter, while Sue is doing something totally unprecedented. Even if you think that there's little difference which organ she attacks, and even if you think that she can pull this off without concentration (which would fly in the face of the scans above, but anyways), the biggest difference is that Sue's trying to reflexively accomplish an attack at 500 metres that she's only ever pulled off at 2 metres. All of the scans that DS has shown of Sue's range are big, simple constructs... usually bubble shields. If this attack adds just half a second to her processing time, the match is over; Emma has won.
Invisible Woman, not Malice
In my last post, I said that Darksaint hadn't posted any scans of Sue being able to create multiple constructs on reflex alone. He countered with both of these scans:
and while only the second scan actually shows what I asked for, it's totally, purposefully misleading because it's not actually Sue's reflexes:
so, as you can see, Dr Doom makes Sue realize that she's not alone in her own head. Malice is taking over. Malice is an evil spirit instilled by Psycho Man to try and create evil Sue.
I'm not concerned that this actually made Sue more powerful, but it's important for this discussion because we're debating what Sue can do reflexively. Can't rely on evidence that's not, you know, actually her doing it.
Sue has no defense to TP
Let's bust a myth. I've posted a scan of Emma's telepathy cutting through Sue's shield and Darksaint has no definitive response.
The only scan that he's raised in his defense is this one of Galactus attacking Sue physically and psychically, in which she literally says that she's being violated on every level of reality ermmnone
Anyways, I don't really know what to do with that. We're told that it's an impressive feat, I guess because she talks about being violated while she's "catapulted across dimensional barriers"... but for obvious reasons, the scan just seems incredibly unrelated to the match, or at the very least so steeped in context that it's not of value.
I will point out though, that Darksaint keeps glossing over the fact that Galactus accomplishes this supposedly psychic attack not just through Sue's shield, but actually by using the shield as a psychic feedback conduit, which seems... unhelpful to his case.
Is there any other evidence of Invisible Woman's tp defenses? Not that I've seen.
Here's an interesting question though: if Sue had defenses to telepathy, why didn't she use them when she was so desperate to rescue her son from Onslaught? Why wouldn't she brave the 'psychic maelstrom'?
Also, if she could shield people from telepathy, why wasn't she doing that when she and the Uncanny Avengers were hiding from Red Onslaught's telepathy? (Iron Man's tp defenses, for instance, had already been addressed in the comic and dealt with)
And why would they assign Invisible Woman to stealth the team, and then assign a different character for mental shielding?
I know, none of this is particularly definitive, but it seems to me, put all together, that it looks like Marvel is not of the opinion that Invisible Woman's shields block telepathy mmm
There's a few lingering threads to tie up:
Darksaint's used an example of Wolverine getting past Emma's mental command to stop. The obvious response is that Wolverine and Sue Storm are just not comparable. Wolverine has had Professor X install mental shielding, on top of natural shielding via his berserker nature and 'mental scarring' that's so powerful it tanked Psylocke's psi-knife. Invisible Woman, on the other hand, was left drooling by the Breakworld bullet's psychic booby trap:
So I don't think what Wolverine can and can't do is relevant.
I know Darksaint is pushing for a ridiculously narrow reading of the rules and battlefield that would have Emma lose the match once she left the street in the picture of the battleground. That's the loophole he's gunning for with this catapult attack. From my perspective, it seems like the neighbourhood or city are the most reasonable interpretations of what the 'battleground' is, especially because both of our characters can effect a bigger area than what's in the picture... but it's also such a small, non-point that I'm not bothering seeking a ruling over it. The match will end as soon as it starts regardless.
I suppose if Emma is thrown away, she could turn diamond and leap back to the limit of the battleground... again though, this is a non-issue.
With the Malice stuff aside, we haven't actually seen Sue multitask extremely quickly, so I want to press the point that a debater can't take one feat of quick reflexes and one feet of concentrated complex power use, and put them together to make a machine who can do all that with a snap of their fingers.
Thanks Phil for hosting, and judges for doing your thing, and for anybody else who manages to wade through this nerdery.
Good game, Darksaint.
Hopefully, I'm doing this at the right time.
This is actually an easy fight to judge. Both ladies are glass canons, powerful if they are aware of danger but squishy humans when caught off guard. Each one is capable of one shotting the other DEPENDING ON WHO GOES FIRST.
IMHO, I DO NOT believe Sue has any defense vs actual TP, Smurph's scan of Emma stunning Sue and crew while Sue had a shield up is damning and strengthens my opinion. But in reality, it makes no difference either way.
This fight is basically a quick draw. Both ladies have excellent showings dealing quickly with incoming danger and it would be unfair to say either has an advantage in that area.
IMHO, this fight is too even to call. Whoever goes first, and there are good examples for both contestants, wins.
Darksaint Post 1- Darksaint argues that Sue will be able to launch an initial attack that effectively acts in 3 ways. First, a shield will be placed around her. Second, a force bubble will be placed in Emma's brain. Third, she will use a force bubble to remove Emma from the battlefield. Susan's demonstrated superior speed will allow her to pull off this triple effect attack before she succumbs to a psionic blast from Emma.
Smurph Post 1-Smurph references a confrontation between Emma and Sue where Emma clearly bypasses Sue's invisible shield and effects her mind directly. Smurph argues that Emma will be able to replicate the feat in this encounter. Smurph provides proof of Emma's superior speed and even more so demonstrated against a speedster in the form of Quicksilver. Smurph also references the versatility of Emma's attacks with casting illusions and mental probing.
Verdict- After the initial posts both characters have demonstrated comparable speed and versatility. The prevailing point is the direct confrontation between Sue and Emma in which Emma got the upper hand.
Darksaint Post 2Darksaint posts scans of Sue reacting in the midst of battle against various threats to demonstrate her combat speed. He negates Emma's feats against Quicksilver and Storm as being the byproduct of distractions and not comparable to what would happen in this one on one matchup against Sue. Darksaint directly addresses the issue of Sue's ability to resist telepathic assault with a scan involving Galactus attacking her simultaneously with physical and telepathic blasts. The issue of the complexity needed to execute Sue's attack is dismissed as Darksaint contends that it is a kill-shot in direct contrast to the scans showing measured displays of Sue's powers. The Battlefield removal part of the trifecta is reaffirmed as Emma has no way to return before the time limit is up.
Smurph Post 2- Smurph argues that the complexity of Daksaint's trifecta assault negates any advantage in speed Sue may have against Emma. Smurph contends that the singular nature of Emma's assault coupled with her past demonstration of its effectiveness against Sue would ultimately win out. Smurph brings up the lack of proof regarding Sue's ability to resist psionic attacks once they've gotten past her shields. He counters the presence of the alternate personality of Malice posing a problem with Emma's effectiveness against The Sentry with the presence of The Void. The factors of concentration and physical stress are also argued as working against Sue in the fight. Proximity is also cited as a limitation on Sue's attack as the scans provided all show her in close range of her opponents when using her abilities. This distance won't be replicated in the start of the match. Smurph contrasts the depiction of long-range attacks with Emma demonstrating global TP through Summers.
Verdict- Some of Smurph's arguments against Darksaint were countered directly in this set of posts. The issue of Sue's lack of psionic defense was negated by her performance against Galactus. The points of concentration and physical stress limiting Sue's performance were responded to with various examples of her displaying the ability to overcome these factors. Complexity being a barrier was noted with numerous examples of Sue pulling off the multifaceted feats that Darksaint initiated in the opening post. Smurph's argument about Emma's ability against multiple personalities wasn't supported with scans to directly counter Darksaint's Malice defense. The introduction of the proximity factor now plays a part as Smurph showed Emma's effectiveness at range in the absence of similar proof for Sue.
Darksaint FINAL Post-Darksaint summarizes all of his prior points about Sue's superior speed and its quantifiable nature. Her ability to effect multiple force bubbles simulataneously and the ease in which she can accomplish it. The revelation of another confrontation with Emma with Sue as the victor is the major point of this post.
Smurph FINAL Post- Smurph summarizes all of his prior points about Emma's superior speed as a telepath as well as her victory over Sue in a direct confrontation. Her vulnerability to psionic attack is also addressed once again. The additional point of Sue's depictions being enhanced because of the presence of Malice is now brought up and supported with scans. He counters Darksaint's points about the lack of Emma's quickdraw against Wolverine.
Both Darksaint and Smurph presented their characters as having the edge in speed that would win in a quick draw battle. They supported this argument with scans very well. Despite this fact neither side proved that their character had the decisive edge necessary to win the match.
The next topic was the complexity of attack on Sue's part versus the argued straightforward assault from Emma. Darksaint provided enough proof that Sue had carried out this multifaceted attack numerous times in the past thus refuting Smurph's claims. This brings us right back to square one except for ONE very important fact.
Smurph's scan of Emma defeating Sue in direct combat.
This was the trump card in Smurph's favor UNTIL the final post from Darksaint which showed...
Sue defeating Emma in direct combat.
AGAIN, both combatants have proven themselves equally capable of defeating the other with no clear advantage. However, there is one point brought up by Smurph that wasn't addressed by Darksaint.
Sue's portrayals all involved her being in much closer proximity to her opponents than she would be here against Emma. This was an interesting point and could've proven the edge in this razor thin match. If ONLY Smurph had provided proof of Sue failing to perform under the aforementioned conditions. In a match this close conjecture is simply not enough.
I declare the match a DRAW!
Kris' verdict :
Blech, what a boring matchup.
Both of the best big-boobed bubble-butt bitches on board and not a scan to acknowledge it.
How does one judge this match? Two characters with human reaction times who both have a wealth of solid reaction time feats to their name and the ability to drop their opponent in the opening moments of the match. Woe is me this should have been handled with two inhibitor-collars and a mud bath.
I'll save you the long writeup that I made you wait for, lmao.
My vote goes to Smurph but it is truly, absurdly close. He wins because I am not wholly convinced that Sue can pull off the bubble-pop as quickly as Emma can do a brain-fry. I was not convinced that she could do that move, that quickly at range. At least not as quickly as Emma could do what she has done a million times.
That's it. That should tell you how close this match was. The deciding factor is something that one would usually glance past in most matchups.
Good fight, good scans and quality participants.
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