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Who wins?

Nihilus rather comfortably.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Nihilus rather comfortably.

Ah I meant to include lightning.

Lol, of course you did.

Starkiller wins regardless of the inclusion of Lightning anyway.

Nihilus dragging a fleet out of the gravity storms of Malachor V; which the ships' own engines couldn't hope to ever achieve, prior to consuming entire planets to grow far more powerful, absolutely laughs at anything Starkiller ever did.

Damn, now I want an Infinities story with Nihilus as the master. You should be the Silver Surfer of the lord: Searching planets to appease his endless hunger.

Because not only are the conditions on Malachor just as strong as they were when the MSG went off, ignoring that the Exile flew away in a ship that was close to Malchor's surface, the gravity wells are also constant.

Oh, wait...no. That's ridiculous.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nihilus dragging a fleet out of the gravity storms of Malachor V; which the ships' own engines couldn't hope to ever achieve, prior to consuming entire planets to grow far more powerful,
absolutely laughs at anything Starkiller ever did.

Weren't the gravity wells keeping the ships in some sort of static field to not let them to flee from the battle?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because not only are the conditions on Malachor just as strong as they were when the MSG went off, ignoring that the Exile flew away in a ship that was close to Malchor's surface, the gravity wells are also constant.

Oh, wait...no. That's ridiculous.

Malachor V is a massive wound in the Force, except for the Trayus Academy.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because not only are the conditions on Malachor just as strong as they were when the MSG went off, ignoring that the Exile flew away in a ship that was close to Malchor's surface, the gravity wells are also constant.

Oh, wait...no. That's ridiculous.

It's specifically stated that he dragged them out of the storms. This was a big thing a year ago.

And those storms crushed and kept those spaceships suspended in that gravitational field.

The storms are not constant, neither is the strength of them, which is the point. Meanwhile Starkiller has demonstrably some of the best TK feats in the mythos against the greatest practitioner of TK in the mythos. Without needing to be on the second strongest Dark Side nexus there has ever been. None of Nihilus' actual combat feats put him even remotely close to Starkiller.

Sidious' great TK-ist? What? Starkiller's beast feat was directing an about-crashing Star Destroyer and barely did the task.

Starkiller, as in Galen Marek in the first game? We have him in the novel, visibly struggling to guide the direction of that capital ship. Nhililus keeps his own capital ship held together while it undergoes sub-light acceleration and de-celleration. He's also supposedly holding it together while he does everything else too.

Starkiller in the second game? Not sure he's that much more powerful than the original tbh. Anyway, N wins.

Even if you factor in the nexus (which I guess extends into the atmosphere?) that feat was accomplished before Nihilus ate several planets, not to mention Katarr and the Jedi Conclave.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Galen destroying the supports of an orbital superstructure prior to growing significantly in power trumps anything Nihilus has ever accomplished.

Originally posted by Conty
Starkiller, as in Galen Marek in the first game? We have him in the novel, visibly struggling to guide the direction of that capital ship. Nhililus keeps his own capital ship held together while it undergoes sub-light acceleration and de-celleration. He's also supposedly holding it together while he does everything else too.

Starkiller in the second game? Not sure he's that much more powerful than the original tbh. Anyway, N wins.

Galen only struggles to do so after powering a blast with enough energy to destroy a large part of a superstructure which dwarfed ISD's. This is before reaching his prime as well.

Starkiller is stated to be more powerful then his template.

That was prior to the forum discovering just how difficult Nihilus' feat was. But thanks for displaying how invested you are in stalking my every post.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Sidious' great TK-ist? What? Starkiller's beast feat was directing an about-crashing Star Destroyer and barely did the task.

False and lacking context. Like most of your posts.

Originally posted by AncientPower
That was prior to the forum discovering just how difficult Nihilus' feat was. But thanks for displaying how invested you are in stalking my every post.

I don't see the rest of the forum sharing your opinion on the impressiveness of the feat tbh.

Nah, all of the people with basic cognitive analytic abilities does. Removing a fleet from a gravity well, which is what Nihilus did prior to consuming five planets. Is well beyond the individual support structures of that building.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nah, all of the people with basic cognitive analytic abilities does.

Anyone wanna sig this?

So Galen wasn't in top shape when he guided the Star Destroyer? Never played that game but if so I wonder if he really can bring down a SD. He can't be that much weaker than clone SK.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nah, all of the people with basic cognitive analytic abilities does. Removing a fleet from a gravity well, which is what Nihilus did prior to consuming five planets. Is well beyond the individual support structures of that building.

Unless you can prove that the storms were exerting the same level of gravitational pull on the ships as when they were initially brought down, that's simply not the case.

Given your lack of response to Freshest on this matter, I assume you came to this conclusions based on your own assumptions rather then actual evidence...

Originally posted by The Merchant
So Galen wasn't in top shape when he guided the Star Destroyer? Never played that game but if so I wonder if he really can bring down a SD. He can't be that much weaker than clone SK.

The feat he accomplished prior took a far larger portion of his energies then guiding the Star Destroyer down would have. He and the clone have a sort of parity given Rahm believes the clone could be Galen though the clone is confirmed to be more powerful overall.

SK II charging a cannon that split a star destroyer in half which can withstand a petaton of energy before going down is more impressive than bringing down a SD. If OG wasn't in top shape when he guided it down and performed a better feat that makea far more sense than SK II being orders of magnitudes more powerful. A Petaton for the recor is 1 billion Megatons, most powerful nuke made in the 20th century was 50 megatons in comparison.

Yeah, I'm aware. That's always the logic I've used as well.

Also note that:

1. Lightning =/= TK

2. It's implied (or rather outright stated) that bringing down the ISD was hard largely for psychological reasons.

3. It's non trivial to guide the ISD for reasons other than sheer lifting strength.

Js but the feat was calculated at being roughly a gigaton using a lowball mass for the SD. I brought a source that gives us the mass of a SD for Legends that bumped that feat to a Teraton. And true, I recall Kota telling Marek his version of "size matters not"

On topic, taking Nihilus stuff at face value Id say he wins I suppose.

Which "Nihilus stuff?" And I wouldn't take anything AP says at face value. He's a self admitted liar and forger.

Not sure if you can compare the various metrics that may go into telekinetically moving something to a simple gross energy balance. There may be limits in terms of how much force (the physics term) he can use across what surface area at what distance, etc.

Him holding the Ravager and a fleet of Sith Warships together with the Force and powering. Even if it was just the Ravager the Kinetic energy to lift a multi billion ton star ship to escape velocity would be compsrable if not superior to Mareks TK feats, and if Nihilus powers said ship that'd be even more impressive.

I've played KOTOR 2 admittedly years ago, but iirc regarding the MSG it no longer had any power and needed to be recharged by the cores of 5 Republic warships on the surface. At the same time, didn't the Revan novel state Meetra did fight against the affects of increased gravity?

"a multi billion ton star ship"

Wut.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Js but the feat was calculated at being roughly a gigaton using a lowball mass for the SD. I brought a source that gives us the mass of a SD for Legends that bumped that feat to a Teraton. And true, I recall Kota telling Marek his version of "size matters not"

On topic, taking Nihilus stuff at face value Id say he wins I suppose.

Which is what source for mass?

Meant to say multi million. Im just guessing since it's roughly the same dimensions as a SD but chunks of it gone.

@Zenwolf it comes from this

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/"Imperial_Star_Destroyer"_SpecPlate

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Which is what source for mass?

EU writers suck at math, as mass figures for ISDs are absurdly low.

I'm pretty sure blowing 150 meters of frigate into what's described as:

"atoms"

"a billion pieces"

"small fragments"

would be better then lifting an ISD sized ship out of orbit. But you know the math better then me.

@Merchant

Originally posted by The Merchant
Meant to say multi million. Im just guessing since it's roughly the same dimensions as a SD but chunks of it gone.

@Zenwolf it comes from this

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/"Imperial_Star_Destroyer"_SpecPlate

Hm, can't believe I never picked up on that or I just forgot about it entirely, it looks vaguely familiar.

If the word "atoms" was used, that would imply atomization which to atomize a 70 KG man would require megatons of concentrated firepower. Can't imagine how massive the yield would be for that frigate feat. Possibly rivaling the cannon feat.

Originally posted by Naugrim
150 meters of frigate
kek

Originally posted by The Merchant
If the word "atoms" was used, that would imply atomization which to atomize a 70 KG man would require megatons of concentrated firepower. Can't imagine how massive the yield would be for that frigate feat. Possibly rivaling the cannon feat.

Yep. Though honestly it's probably hyperbole or only describing what happened to a portion of the ship closest to the epicenter of Starkiller's blast. For now, let's just assume it was shattered into uncountable small fragments. Wouldn't that require greater energy then dragging an ISD sized ship into space?

Originally posted by Naugrim
Wouldn't that require greater energy then dragging an ISD sized ship into space?

Yes. But we don't know if TK feats should be scaled via the power they take, the total energy, the force, the stress, the distance, or whatever.

Doesn't "the power they take" and "the total energy" take into account the other factors listed?

Originally posted by Naugrim
Doesn't "the power the take" and "the total energy" take into account the other factors listed?

Somewhat but there are different ways to get there (lots of power + short time vs. the opposite, the area/volume of what you're TK'ing, the distances, etc.) We can only really make educated guesses.

*Shrug*

It seems like taking those factors into account would only further tilt things in Starkiller's favor given we don't know how long it took Nihilus to accomplish the feat while Starkiller was able to accomplish it with a gesture ( bringing down his hands in a pounding gesture ).

We know the object Starkiller affected was 150 meters while the one Nihilus affected was 1600 meters.

Distance is irrelevant for Starkiller's feat and we could probably find a pretty accurate distance between surface and orbit for Malachor by gauging the planet's size.

Yeah the context def favors Starkiller.

I guess the argument could be made that we don't know for sure which is better since we don't know how quickly Nihilus raised the ships, but to assume he accelerated them into the atmosphere so quickly that it would bridge the gap in energy between the two feats seems dishonest imo.

-

Lmao, people still use the "we don't know the context of his tk". If Nihilus wouldn't have easily accomplished that feat; then the writers would have mentioned it. Even if his pre-planets TK feats were 'not-that-impressive'; after siphoning several words off Force/life energy, he certainly got to the point of casually holding his ghost ship. So, no Galen still isn't<Nihilus

Originally posted by Naugrim
False and lacking context. Like most of your posts.

"False and lacking context." What!?

You do realize that the Lusankya tk feat never happened? Sidious had nothing to do with its burial. It was his servants who did it.

As about Star Killer, in the novel is stated that his TK feat was in no way easy; and he was tired afterwards. These two aren't even comparable. Not to mention that Nihilus constantly kept his ship with TK as he traveled throughout the galaxy.
You can't use the "Nihilus slowly tk'd his ship" because the moment Nihilus brought his ship in the cosmos, he'd not have enough power to keep it intact and fly it because he'd be weakened as consequence.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Lmao, people still use the "we don't know the context of his tk". If Nihilus wouldn't have easily accomplished that feat; then the writers would have mentioned it. Even if his pre-planets TK feats were 'not-that-impressive'; after siphoning several words off Force/life energy, he certainly got to the point of casually holding his ghost ship. So, no Galen still isn't<Nihilus

The effort Nihilus expended to carry out the feat isn't what's in question tbh. Only the details of how it was carried out. Assuming Nihilus used the baseline energy neccesarry to accomplish the feat, he's still substantially below either Galen or Starkiller. It's not knowing exactly how fast he got those ships into orbit that leaves the issue in question.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
As about Star Killer, in the novel is stated that his TK feat was in no way easy; and he was tired afterwards. These two aren't even comparable. Not to mention that Nihilus constantly kept his ship with TK as he traveled throughout the galaxy.
You can't use the "Nihilus slowly tk'd his ship" because the moment Nihilus brought his ship in the cosmos, he'd not have enough power to keep it intact and fly it because he'd be weakened as consequence.

I cut the top part of your post since it was nothing but gibberish and strawmanning.

Because I'm generous, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are unaware that Galen accomplishes a feat that required far greater amounts of energy prior to carrying out the Star Destroyer feat.

Sorry, what are you trying to claim in regards to Nihilus's feat?

That's nice if you want to go into physics, for feats, Nihilus merely holding the ravager together is comparable to mareks SD feat. and him ripping it from orbit, is ten times the amount of Mareks.

CT123, has blogs calculating this type of stuff. If you want to see, a good estimate of the energies for those feats.

I'm sorry, but your "fan estimations" aren't valid as evidence Hashbrowns. And we're not referring to Galen Marek's "Star Destroyer feat" ( which is one of his lesser showings anyways ) but Starkiller's "frigate feat."

Originally posted by Naugrim
I'm sorry, but your "fan estimations" aren't valid as evidence Hashbrowns.

It's more reliable than yours, because it's backed with calcs, unlike your assumptions.

Show me these "calcs" which place holding the Ravager together above shattering 150 meters of frigate tbh.

Originally posted by Naugrim
Show me these "calcs" which place holding the Ravager together above shattering 150 meters of frigate tbh.

https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/star-wars-feat-darth-nihilius-tks-the-ravager.19653/#comment-175643

Lol 150 meters, try 1.2km of the ravager

You're aware of the difference between holding something together and moving it in comparison to completely blowing it apart...

Originally posted by Naugrim
You're aware of the difference between holding something together and moving it in comparison to completely blowing it apart...

Yeah, and it's a lot less, than what is shown here.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

Only 50 megatons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba#/media/File:Tsar_Bomba_Paris.png

3.5km, would be completely incinerated.

150m frigate shattered, much gasps, so strong, yeah nah.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
https://www.narutoforums.org/xfa-blog-entry/star-wars-feat-darth-nihilius-tks-the-ravager.19653/#comment-175643

Yeah, that doesn't touch Marek's cannon feat which is several orders of magnitude above it and the calc is likely off given they assumed the artificial gravity the MSG had upon activating was still present when Nihilus accomplished the feat, something that was likely not the case given Meetra was able to pilot a ship off planet as Freshest pointed out earlier..

"Given the planet was still under the effects of the artificial gravity generated by the MSG, I'll be using treating the planet's mass as though it's the artificial one from that blog." - The blog you linked.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Yeah, and it's a lot less, than what is shown here.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

Only 50 megatons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba#/media/File:Tsar_Bomba_Paris.png

3.5km, would be completely incinerated.

Wtf are you talking about? We're not comparing blast radius's here. We're comparing the effects of their respective manipulation.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
150m frigate shattered, much gasps, so strong, yeah nah.

You get that there's a difference between a blast having a radius of 150 meters and a blast having the power to shatter a shielded scifi frigate, correct?

Originally posted by Naugrim
Yeah, that doesn't touch Marek's cannon feat which is several orders of magnitude above it and the calc is likely off given they assumed the artificial gravity the MSG had upon activating was still present when Nihilus accomplished the feat, something that was likely not the case given Meetra was able to pilot a ship off planet as Freshest pointed out earlier.

You do realize, energy cores in starwars are insane.
Republic ships at the time had"planet shattering" power sources. A ship could easily get off even without, a thousandth of that power.

Originally posted by Naugrim
You get that there's a difference between a blast having a radius of 150 meters and a blast having the power to shatter a shielded scifi frigate, correct?

Didn't realize Shields stopped the force being used inside the Ship.
This is Tk we are talking about right?

Originally posted by Haschwalth
You do realize, energy cores in starwars are insane.
Republic ships at the time had"planet shattering" power sources. A ship could easily get off even without, a thousandth of that power.

Gonna need a quote for that.

Originally posted by Naugrim
Wtf are you talking about? We're not comparing blast radius's here. We're comparing the effects of their respective manipulation.

mHmm, and by your logic, this should be more powerful than shattering it.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Didn't realize Shields stopped the force being used inside the Ship.
This is Tk we are talking about right?

You're aware that ships in Star Wars possess interior shielding and that Starkiller was outside of the ship when he blew it up, correct?

Originally posted by Haschwalth
mHmm, and by your logic, this should be more powerful than shattering it.

And how do you figure that?

Originally posted by Naugrim
Gonna need a quote for that.

"Remember the four wrecked Republic ships you passed earlier? Each of them contains an active power core that can be turned into an energy source for a planet-shattering explosion. You must take control of the little remote droid and pilot it to each of the four ships to bring them online."

http://www.theberserker.net/berserk...otor_II_OSG.pdf

Originally posted by Naugrim
And how do you figure that?

You know basic physics right shattering(i'm guessing pulverization)<vaporization<Atomize

The link you posted takes you to an error page.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
You know basic physics right shattering(i'm guessing pulverization)<vaporization<Atomize

The difference being that a scifi frigate is going to be more durable then modern age building material...

Originally posted by Naugrim
Your link takes you to an error page.

Weird it's the Kotor 2 hand guide.

206 Prima official game guide.
at 210/304

Originally posted by Naugrim
The difference being that a scifi frigate is going to be more durable then modern age building material...
No shit, this is only 50 Megatons with the range, which is nothing.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
No shit, this is only 50 Megatons with the range, which is nothing.

What's only 50MT? The frigate feat? If you're using a nuclear blast calculator to calc that then you're proving my point. Such a tool can't take into account the durability of materials from a scifi universe or its shielding and thus can't give us an accurate estimation of the force needed to blow it apart. If that wasn't what you were saying, then I'm curious what that "50 megatons" you're talking about is in reference to.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Yeah, and it's a lot less, than what is shown here.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba

Only 50 megatons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba#/media/File:Tsar_Bomba_Paris.png

3.5km, would be completely incinerated.

You will now justify that the blast radius of the Tsar bomb by that criteria is energetic enough to blow apart the frigate in question. Because from 3.5 km away from the epicenter, there's no guarantee even modern reinforced bunkers would have been penetrated, let alone a SW frigate.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Weird it's the Kotor 2 hand guide.

206 Prima official game guide.
at 210/304

Fair enough. I'll let somebody more well versed in KOTOR argue whether it's reasonable to assume the Malachor gravity well maintained the same potency as when it was first activated.

Originally posted by Naugrim
What's only 50MT? The frigate feat? If you're using a nuclear blast calculator to calc that then you're proving my point. Such a tool can't take into account building materials from a scifi universe or its shielding. If not then I'm curious what that "50 megatons" you're talking about is in reference to.

hmm, 3.5km of vaporization for only 50 megatons, the feats we discuss are in the gigatons. Unless you think durasteel is hundreds of times, more durable than steel/titanium. you would also have to think blaster bolts from guns, which penetrate this material, are insanly high, yet they don't incinerate people.

Originally posted by Naugrim
Fair enough. I'll let somebody more well versed in KOTOR argue whether it's reasonable to assume the Malachor gravity well maintained the same potency as when it was first activated.

The planets gravity would not change, it's state after malachor, unless you are willing to suggest, the mass of the planet decreased, over time. which is straight up silly.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
hmm, 3.5km of vaporization for only 50 megatons, the feats we discuss are in the gigatons. Unless you think durasteel is hundreds of times, more durable than steel/titanium. you would also have to think blaster bolts from guns, which penetrate this material, are insanly high, yet they don't incinerate people.

As mentioned earlier, parts of the ship, likely at the center, were stated to have been "atomized." The power of blaster bolts varies to an extreme degree even within the same source at times, as you're likely aware. Considering Grievous's armor was stated to be made out of the same material as SW fighters and he's able to survive city busting explosions, it's likely that the material a frigate is made out of is many times stronger then steel or titanium.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
The planets gravity would not change, it's state after malachor, unless you are willing to suggest, the mass of the planet decreased, over time. which is straight up silly.

As I said, I'll defer to others on this matter.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You will now justify that the blast radius of the Tsar bomb by that criteria is energetic enough to blow apart the frigate in question. Because from 3.5 km away from the epicenter, there's no guarantee even modern reinforced bunkers would have been penetrated, let alone a SW frigate.

eh, no I don't I only need to energy from the epicenter As it covers like 30 SW frigates.

But if Marek did rip the shields apart(penetrate) before TKing the frigate, depending on the shielding, it would be superior to Nihilus's feat.

Originally posted by Naugrim
As mentioned earlier, parts of the ship, likely at the center, were stated to have been "atomized." The power of blaster bolts varies to an extreme degree even within the same source at times, as you're likely aware. Considering Grievous's armor was stated to be made out of the same material as SW fighters and he's able to survive city busting explosions, it's likely that the material a frigate's made out of is many times stronger then steel or titanium.

I agree stuff like Mandalorian steel, can repel Lightsabers.
But a frigate, would be designed for cheapness/efficiency, as the demand would be high for production, so I doubt the hard material you guys are talking about would be used much.

A frigate isn't going to be made cheaply or have their durability skimped on tbh. You want to be cost efficient but you're not going to sacrifice effectiveness to do so.

Alright man, it's 1 in the morning for me and I have an early class tomorrow. Ciao.

The material, will be cost efficient, which most likely will be relative to our steel. in comparison to titanium or diamond. So I admit It will be many times harder than our hardest materials, it won't be the quality of mando steel or Grevious's armour.

Ciaossu.

A) It was an experimental prototype cannon that Starkiller powered up. We have no clue how it works or the mechanics of how the lightning comes into play.

B) The Salvation was already in the process of being destroyed when Starkiller smashed it. It had already snapped it half and pieces were ripping off.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
The material, will be cost efficient, which most likely will be relative to our steel. in comparison to titanium or diamond. So I admit It will be many times harder than our hardest materials, it won't be the quality of mando steel or Grevious's armour.

Ciaossu.

The armor plating of a frigate is going to be far thicker then the armor plating of a fighter and honestly, I can't imagine that the material it's made out of would be less durable given a frigate is going to be dealing with a far greater quantity and quality of attacks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
A) It was an experimental prototype cannon that Starkiller powered up. We have no clue how it works or the mechanics of how the lightning comes into play.

B) The Salvation was already in the process of being destroyed when Starkiller smashed it. It had already snapped it half and pieces were ripping off.

Watch the background before the cut scene plays. The cannon is shown to be firing upon the Star Destroyer and doing no damage prior to Starkiller charging up the blast ( I'll link you the clip tomorrow if you are unable to find it ).

That's true, but we know that the text states that the shield's were holding prior to that and that shields don't prevent damage from physical sources such as objects ramming into it or internal stresses physically tearing the ship apart. They would however protect the ship against raw energy.

Originally posted by Naugrim
The armor plating of a frigate is going to be far thicker then the armor plating of a fighter and honestly, I can't imagine that the material it's made out of would be less durable given a frigate is going to be dealing with a far greater quantity and quality of attacks.

You have to take into account, pricing of these ships, they can't just spit out the best material, by the hundreds of thousands. They do have a budget, you also have to take into account, the ships mainly rely on shielding. the ship is generally screwed once they lose shielding. So matter what material they use, the turbo blasters would essentially shatter the metal.

Who said that the material fighters are made out of is the "best?"

We know for a fact it's not give the existence of stuff like cortosis and mandalorian iron.

Originally posted by Naugrim
Who said that the material fighters are made out of is the "best?"

We know for a fact it's not give the existence of stuff like cortosis and mandalorian iron.
Then we are in agreement because I've been stating it's probably the steel equilvent. Strong, and can manufacture a lot of it at a good price.

Originally posted by Naugrim
Watch the background before the cut scene plays. The cannon is shown to be firing upon the Star Destroyer and doing no damage prior to Starkiller charging up the blast ( I'll link you the clip tomorrow if you are unable to find it ).

That's true, but we know that the text states that the shield's were holding prior to that and that shields don't prevent damage from physical sources such as objects ramming into it or internal stresses physically tearing the ship apart. They would however protect the ship against raw energy.

I actually did find what you're talking about and not only does that not change my point, but by the looks of it Starkillers shot is significantly different in that he forces the cannon to shoot everything in one shot whereas before it was shooting without overtly draining the energy tanks.

The physical forces and stresses was what I was referring to. It would be much easier to destroy a ship that's already shredding under the pressure.

Also I find it pretty egregious that you're mixing and matching scenes between two contradicting sources. Starkiller doesn't charge the cannon in the book. And he doesn't destroy the ship in the game. He can't have done both.

^ I fvcking knew that wasn't real. I read through the book and couldn't find a damn thing suggesting he charged it. I was gonna give the benefit of the doubt that it might happen in the game.

Nothing that you guys are saying contradicts the fact that Starkiller charged the cannon to penetrate the shields, lmao.

Show me the actual source depicting this.

ro_Ix_3uNpQ

He gets into the room the cannon is in at 7.25. It gets taken out at 8.13 and he does the feat at 9.07.

The cannon itself is an experimental prototype. The feat is pretty clearly unquantifiable.

alternative explanation. He doesn't actually fuel the weapon. He simply uses his lighting to start up the device so it's own fuel can power the weapon.

It's like how the start motor of a car simply gets the engine turning instead of actually fuelling the cars acceleration.

Nah, seems like he actively charged it with his own power, hence why the attack seemed like a ball of lightning.

that is also true.

Actually no. The other capital ship oposite fired the exact same lighting ball style laser to disable the weapon in the first place.

skip to at 8:14 of the video neph posted.

As for the feat it looks like Galen is just starting up the weapon with his powers as oppose to charging it, which is why the cylandars are sustaining themselves after he finished using the lightning.

Well, there goes that.

Also if it was indeed his lightning that charged up a blast that could one shot a star destroyer it would have destroyed the cylinders and, probably the entire area Galen was standing in as soon as he unleashed it.

And that.

Can I point out that the weapon that knocked out the cannon in the first place was ion based? Because I feel like that says a lot.

Nah, the cylinders, which are generally down when the gun is active, stay up, and Galen has to transfer energy energy into them, which light up all the cylinders around it. he then blasts the front of it which pushes it. to fire, seems like he did it manually.

If it were automatic, I don't think he would of physically had to push the trigger.

I plan on addressing the feat in Super Fight II.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Nah, the cylinders, which are generally down when the gun is active, stay up, and Galen has to transfer energy energy into them, which light up all the cylinders around it. he then blasts the front of it which pushes it. to fire, seems like he did it manually.

If it were automatic, I don't think he would of physically had to push the trigger.

The point is that people are claiming that Galen's three second lighting blast = the resulting blast that destroyed the enemy ship. If that were the case, the bolts would have annihilated the enitre room as soon they left his finger tips. An alternative (more appropriate) explanation is that Galen is providing the turbines enough power to spin allowing them to tap into to the weapons own power source before it fires. A bit like jump-starting a car with an allready full tank of petrol. Playing which light was on when is a semantic game and Galen "manually pushing the trigger" just means that the connection between the cannon and whatever remote device was used to controll the weapon would have been disabled after it got hit. And as we discovered before, the blue lightning-like orb emitted from the cannons barrel is standard for the device.

Lmao, why it even matters? Nihilus shits on anything Marek did.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Then we are in agreement because I've been stating it's probably the steel equilvent. Strong, and can manufacture a lot of it at a good price.

Except we know it's likely far stronger then steel... The upper limit for the durability of SW material is far higher then the upper limit for real world materials.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I actually did find what you're talking about and not only does that not change my point, but by the looks of it Starkillers shot is significantly different in that he forces the cannon to shoot everything in one shot whereas before it was shooting without overtly draining the energy tanks.

The physical forces and stresses was what I was referring to. It would be much easier to destroy a ship that's already shredding under the pressure.

Also I find it pretty egregious that you're mixing and matching scenes between two contradicting sources. Starkiller doesn't charge the cannon in the book. And he doesn't destroy the ship in the game. He can't have done both.

The cannon is stated to be offline forcing Galen to charge it with his own energy. Not affect how much energy the gun is using from its own stores. I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

I'm not disagreeing there. Simply noting that the ship tearing apart would not be indicative of the shield's going offline. Especially given a corona had formed around the Salvation during its descent similar to the one that formed around the Invisible Hand in RotS.

Hey, it's all of you who've always nagged me to accept all C canon sources as equally valid. Now that I'm doing that, it's apparently not kosher.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Lmao, why it even matters? Nihilus shits on anything Marek did.

Except he doesn't... And thas's the point. Your lofty proclamations of your own opinion won't change that.

Originally posted by Conty
Also if it was indeed his lightning that charged up a blast that could one shot a star destroyer it would have destroyed the cylinders and, probably the entire area Galen was standing in as soon as he unleashed it.

?? Why would a cannon designed to take out capital ships necessarily get overloaded by the energy needed to take out capital ships?

Anyway, I think a lot of the counters made to this feat have been rather convoluted mental gymnastics that don't match the physics of it really well, but I'm still debating whether I should save further conversation for my debate with Ant.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
?? Why would a cannon designed to take out capital ships necessarily get overloaded by the energy needed to take out capital ships?

Pretty contradictory stance by the detractors tbh. If it can contain the power necessary to carry out the feat they're attributing to it then it definitely has the ability to absorb/store that kind of energy in the first place.

lmfaowhat

Anyway I'm pretty sure I can beat Ant on an engineering/technical discussion so I'll save my full response for that, though I may chip in a bit here and there.

Me: has not commented at all on my thoughts of the feat whatsoever (ambiguous lmfaowhat aside)

I'm curious what technical discussion you have pre-planned against a hypothetical opponent, though.

Relax I didn't accuse you of anything, I just made the pretty reasonable guess that you'd try to refute it with something about the nature of the feat, lmao.

The comment although seems out of left field.

I'm just noting my lack of a comprehensive rebuttal isn't a matter of not having one, because I had anticipated these arguments. Nothing to see here.

Anyway, the outlander has enough energy to charge tyth, and other machines capable of taking down EF Ships,and razing planet surfaces.

A couple dozen no name half dead Jedi were giving the star forge enough energy to collect, exatons of energy worth from the star to create ships etc.

Seriously the feat, is capable of being reproduced, by any decent high tier.

Captured Jedaii were capable of giving Rakatan ships enough energy to destroy countries etc.

This ain't some big game changing feat.

Sources for all of the stuff you're claiming would be great. And a decent chunk of the feats you mentioned require additional context outside of affirming their existence.

There's a big difference between charging a cannon with lightning with moderate exertion and having significant portions of your essence drained lol.

Originally posted by Naugrim
Sources for all of the stuff you're claiming would be great. And a decent chunk of the feats you mentioned require additional context outside of affirming their existence.

Being fuel for it:
https://youtu.be/Cngvgwnm--4?t=1594

Killing trillions(wiping civilizations) called a literal super weapon.
https://youtu.be/Cngvgwnm--4?t=1003

Destroying a EF ship
https://youtu.be/Cngvgwnm--4?t=1619


Rakata draining people, destroying countries

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ WZ8x4orFDSq7BEeJ5HMT3Zk1i8_9W7jZGIh31s4eKfTrkNz96T
8VYl_8PKSd_UqCzkRqQM_DbBNwkQ=s1600

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Forge

That's a ridiculous stretch for about a dozen reasons, as I'm sure you know. For starters, those ships are visibly hilariously weak, as their firepower is like less than that of a modern A-10 gunship, kek.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's a big difference between charging a cannon with lightning with moderate exertion and having significant portions of your essence drained lol.

They induce fear/hate etc to get this power, this ain't using their essence, but force power.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's a ridiculous stretch for about a dozen reasons, as I'm sure you know. For starters, those ships are visibly hilariously weak, as their firepower is like less than a modern A-10 gunship, kek.

And that machine, was barely operational. It has to be able to expend energy like that at a moderate rate while wiping out populations.
And those ships are>>Republic SWTOR ships.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
And that machine, was barely operational.

So the protag doesn't actually power it to planet-wrecking mode then?

Originally posted by Haschwalth
And that machine, was barely operational. It has to be able to expend energy like that at a moderate rate while wiping out populations.
And those ships are>>Republic SWTOR ships.

But weren't TOR ships able to fight the Eternal fleet over Odessen?(Or over some other planet, can't recall) So...I mean I'm recalling the ships engaging and holding fairly well against them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So the protag doesn't actually power it to planet-wrecking mode then?

Hmmm, The protagonist obviously wasn't captured, and used for fuel.
but the point is, he would given the Machines fuel, to help cause that type of destruction.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Hmmm, The protagonist obviously wasn't captured, and used for fuel.
but the point is, he would given the Machines fuel, to help cause that type of destruction.

It doesn't seem clear to me that it was even 0.001% of its full power, it seems to just have been a little bit to defend itself.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
But weren't TOR ships able to fight the Eternal fleet over Odessen?(Or over some other planet, can't recall) So...I mean I'm recalling the ships engaging and holding fairly well against them.
You think, the republic/imp ships didn't update their weapons, as the Eternal fleet commander you spend a fair bit of time getting info, on Iokath weaponry, the republic reasonably would of updated their weapons to compete with them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It doesn't seem clear to me that it was even 0.001% of its full power, it seems to just have been a little bit to defend itself.

Yeah enough fuel to power 0.01 of the 6 machines, yeah no. why would he even suggest splitting the outlanders power between the 6 if it were that much.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
You think, the republic/imp ships didn't update their weapons, as the Eternal fleet commander you spend a fair bit of time getting info, on Iokath weaponry, the republic reasonable would of updated their weapons to compete with them.

This was before Iokath and before gaining control of the EF.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
This was before Iokath.
Yeah, and the outlander was raiding EF ships before then, not to mention info from the gravestone, they have had, and probably captured EF ships over the past 5 years the outlander was frozen in carbonite.

whoops misread your comment elliminist, that would just prove my point though.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
whoops misread your comment elliminist, that would just prove my point though.

How so? We have no idea what portion of their full power the protag fuels except that it is just enough to get off one shot and then get overwhelmed. I certainly don't see how you can try to scale from "planet wrecking" or "killing trillions".

Originally posted by Haschwalth
You think, the republic/imp ships didn't update their weapons, as the Eternal fleet commander you spend a fair bit of time getting info, on Iokath weaponry, the republic reasonably would of updated their weapons to compete with them.

Which would then scale massively upwards to the Clone Wars era, and even moreso to TFU.

And yeah, I was wrong with the essence thing. But it doesn't matter as it comes from No names, who's essence shouldn't have a shred of a chance against the raw power of the high tier force users.

Unknowns aren't necessarily fodder they're just ( as their name implies ) unknown and uncovered.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
And yeah, I was wrong with the essence thing. But it doesn't matter as it comes from No names, who's essence shouldn't have a shred of a chance against the raw power of the high tier force users.

That would make you wonder how Dramath was able to harm Valkorion.

In either case, we're still comparing the essence of several Force users being constantly drained to Starkiller powering the cannon with some Force lightning and still being able to continue fighting afterwards.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How so? We have no idea what portion of their full power the protag fuels except that it is just enough to get off one shot and then get overwhelmed. I certainly don't see how you can try to scale from "planet wrecking" or "killing trillions".



Which would then scale massively upwards to the Clone Wars era, and even moreso to TFU.

We know it's a decent amount as he is literally the most powerful force user in the galaxy at the time, and as I said him being used as fuel for more than one. Anyway I'm not arguing he completely fuels them, i'm saying he easily gives enough to completely surpass Mareks feat.

Nah, they lost a lot of technology before the PT series, HK-47 was regarded as extremely advanced compared to the other droids during the clones wars.(casually took out droidkas, super battle droids etc. You cannot assume they built their technology on from their, otherwise we would see teleporters etc.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That would make you wonder how Dramath was able to harm Valkorion.

In either case, we're still comparing the essence of several Force users being constantly drained to Starkiller powering the cannon with some Force lightning and still being able to continue fighting afterwards.

He didn't really, a Crack. And dramath wasn't a push over. and weaker force users simply have a far Bigger limit to their strength, then the likes of Galen

Lmfao. Where's this idea of technology scaling coming from?

Originally posted by Haschwalth
We know it's a decent amount as he is literally the most powerful force user in the galaxy at the time, and as I said him being used as fuel for more than one. Anyway I'm not arguing he completely fuels them, i'm saying he easily gives enough to completely surpass Mareks feat.


Not really. It's unquantifiable and there are no grounds to say that the energy fed from the protag > the energy expended by Galen Marek, except by circularly arguing for the Outlander's power.



HK-47 is regarded as advanced by the TOR-era too, but it isn't really on the level of, say, General Grievous so I'm not sure if it's an apt comparison.

But while it's possible that some specific technologies were lost, on aggregate it's clear that fleet tech has upgraded substantially - capital ships are far larger, hyperdrive ratings are better, Base Delta Zeroes and other displays of firepower not seen in the TOR-era appear as standard battle tactics, etc. The Empire itself has been described as fielding the most formidable military force in galactic history, which isn't that unexpected given that tech regression makes far less sense than progress given the conditions.