Can Flash solo The Ultimates?

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riv6672
https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1445370719l/27241840.jpg

Wally West around the time of Morrison's JLA, he seemed at peak power there, and in his solo series.
Blue Marvel, Captain Marvel, Miss America, Spectrum, Black Panther.
No prep.
No BFR.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/56/25/5e56255bf09e1738b81559b9b573abbb.jpg

leonidas
on the forum absolutely--in fact you'd need to low ball him to give them a chance. in a comic he would have no chance.

xJLxKing
Flash would destroy them

MrMind
If we takes into high end feats with no CIS, wally is approachin zoom level
, only 4 kinds of people can beat him
1. reality warpers and toon force
2. characters that zoom can't hurt (juggernaut)
3. characters that can instantly reform themselves (dr manhattan)
4. character faster than him

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by MrMind
If we takes into high end feats with no CIS, wally is approachin zoom level
, only 4 kinds of people can beat him
1. reality warpers and toon force
2. characters that zoom can't hurt (juggernaut)
3. characters that can instantly reform themselves (dr manhattan)
4. character faster than him

Even then, speedsteal.....

RealityWarper
If we take in consideration Flash's ability to be predictable and Black Panther's combat skills, the fight ends the moment BP punches Flash into the throat.

Zack M
Flash would kill them all.

carver9
Speed kills all. Flash beats everyone on Marvel earth in less than a pico second.

riv6672
Man i was really hoping for a more coherent argument for either side.

Damborgson
Originally posted by leonidas
on the forum absolutely--in fact you'd need to low ball him to give them a chance. in a comic he would have no chance.

RealityWarper
Monica Rambeau can go inside his head and fry his brain.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672
Man i was really hoping for a more coherent argument for either side.

Lol.

But in all seriousness, people are, for the most part, misunderstanding your (simple) question.

Can he?

The answer is of course, yes. It is certainly feasible to do so. With his speed, he can make this entire thread one-on-one.

Morrison's Flash, after all, was the one capable of running through as many battle simulations as needed to find the perfect battle tactic:
https://s5.postimg.org/a9y771wev/image.jpg

Morrison's Flash was the one who did the IMP.

Was the one who could run so fast, he time-travelled and made time clones:
https://s5.postimg.org/c2ns9iudz/image.jpg

So if anything, he could multiply himself, and then the Ultimates have multiple Flashes to handle.

Of course, there's Monica.

But Monica is slower than thought:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--U1DSF_wGYI/WOzhH8XZL2I/AAAAAAADJ4M/iIfFwJEi1WYvJw-nQN8TTo5hrCvpxEDBgCLcB/s1600/90_10.jpg

And when she's at her top speed (so slower than thought), America Chavez moves in slow motion compared to her:
http://i.imgur.com/0SWq6vN.png

And Flashes?
https://s5.postimg.org/5dzmch2l3/image.jpg

https://s5.postimg.org/iq6lqw9qv/image.jpg

I tried to stick to the parameters of the thread, and limited the showings to Morrison era Flash only.

riv6672
^^^Now THAT'S amore! thumb up

spetznaz

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Flash would kill them all.

I'm fine with this idea, so long as we can agree that he'd be able to do the same to the Justice League.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Stoic
I'm fine with this idea, so long as we can agree that he'd be able to do the same to the Justice League.

What iteration of the Justice League?

Stoic
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
What iteration of the Justice League?


One with current versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern (Hal), Batman, Aquaman, Cyborg and you can add an additional member if you'd like.

RealityWarper
Flash (Barry) cannot even solo Tangent Superman.

Flash (Wally) cannot even beat Abra Kadabra in less than two or three issues...

He get rekt.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Stoic
One with current versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern (Hal), Batman, Aquaman, Cyborg and you can add an additional member if you'd like.

Superman and Diana aren't as slow or vulnerable physically as the members of the Ultimates.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
One with current versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern (Hal), Batman, Aquaman, Cyborg and you can add an additional member if you'd like.

Batman will phuck him up. He has a history of dealing with speedsters thumb up

Stoic
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Superman and Diana aren't as slow or vulnerable physically as the members of the Ultimates.


Monica, and Adam are just as impressive. Besides who cares right? Flash would make them out to be either moving in slow motion, or not at all.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman will phuck him up. He has a history of dealing with speedsters thumb up

Are you arguing against your own logic now? If not, you should take it up with the writers. Batman is slower than Superman, or what are you trying to say here?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
Are you arguing against your own logic now? If not, you should take it up with the writers. Batman is slower than Superman, or what are you trying to say here?

Lol.

Do you not get when people are being sarcastic?

Now do you get why I was tearing my hair out in the other threads, lol.

Based on comics, Batman has many a showing of dealing with speedsters. Not once, twice, three times...but many times. If I were to use it seriously, I would get called out on it.

Flash could also deal with the JLA lineup you mentioned.

Put it this way. We had a BZ, where everyone in the forum was able to take a herald, high herald and below.

Speed was the paramount thing EVERYONE tried to deal with. As salty as Carver is, even HE didn't pick, say, Hulk, or Rulk, or Blue Marvel, or Spectrum, or anyone like that.

He specifically tried to pick the one guy he thought was faster than everyone else.

Shows a lot, imo.

MrMind
lol at the idea of blue marvel and monica on superman level, stoic is smokin some serious shit

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by MrMind
lol at the idea of blue marvel and monica on superman level, stoic is smokin some serious shit

I even posted a scan of SUPERMAN being faster than thought.

Something that Monica (the fastest member of the Ultimates) is not.

And by logic, neither is BM.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol.

Do you not get when people are being sarcastic?

Now do you get why I was tearing my hair out in the other threads, lol.

Based on comics, Batman has many a showing of dealing with speedsters. Not once, twice, three times...but many times. If I were to use it seriously, I would get called out on it.

Flash could also deal with the JLA lineup you mentioned.

Put it this way. We had a BZ, where everyone in the forum was able to take a herald, high herald and below.

Speed was the paramount thing EVERYONE tried to deal with. As salty as Carver is, even HE didn't pick, say, Hulk, or Rulk, or Blue Marvel, or Spectrum, or anyone like that.

He specifically tried to pick the one guy he thought was faster than everyone else.

Shows a lot, imo.

Common sense though. It's why I refused to acknowledge the comparison in the Thanos thread. He simply doesn't have super powers, and anything showing him doing something impossible should never be used to reflect on other characters that actually do have powers. The best that you can do in his case, when the impossible happens is call PIS, or try to make up an excuse for how well he did. Either way.

Originally posted by MrMind
lol at the idea of blue marvel and monica on superman level, stoic is smokin some serious shit

I wouldn't consider taking anything that you write seriously, because I have yet to see you be objective. You'd give the weakest DC character odds to beat the most powerful marvel character. Who could ever take you seriously?

MrMind
Originally posted by Stoic


I wouldn't consider taking anything that you write seriously, because I have yet to see you be objective. You'd give the weakest DC character odds to beat the most powerful marvel character. Who could ever take you seriously?

I wouldn't consider taking anything that you write seriously, because I have yet to see you be objective. You'd give the weakest Marvel character odds to beat the most powerful DC character. Who could ever take you seriously?

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I even posted a scan of SUPERMAN being faster than thought.

Something that Monica (the fastest member of the Ultimates) is not.

And by logic, neither is BM.

What would it matter if they were slower than Forum Flash? You seem upset DS. See things for what they are without attempting to make more out of something than it is. My first post on the matter stands. Go round and round with it if you want, but it won't change anything. He'd beat them as well.

Stoic
Originally posted by MrMind
I wouldn't consider taking anything that you write seriously, because I have yet to see you be objective. You'd give the weakest Marvel character odds to beat the most powerful DC character. Who could ever take you seriously?

So you're Top Troll. Good to know. I give DC the benefit very often. You? Just stop before you end up on my ignore list.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
What would it matter if they were slower than Forum Flash? You seem upset DS. See things for what they are without attempting to make more out of something than it is. My first post on the matter stands. Go round and round with it if you want, but it won't change anything. He'd beat them as well.

Lol, nah, not upset.

I've gone pages and pages and pages with carver, h1, and bluewaterrider. Sometimes, all at once. It takes a lot.

Like I said, Flash would win. I think it, everyone else thinks it.

In every BZ tourney, speed is the first to get capped at a specific level. In the HH tourney, once I drafted Wally, lo and behold, Carver drafted Zoom. All the tactics drafted were to deal with speed.

It's just a thing that can't really be answered for, once you have a strong enough offence to take advantage of your speed...advantage.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol, nah, not upset.

I've gone pages and pages and pages with carver, h1, and bluewaterrider. Sometimes, all at once. It takes a lot.

Like I said, Flash would win. I think it, everyone else thinks it.

In every BZ tourney, speed is the first to get capped at a specific level. In the HH tourney, once I drafted Wally, lo and behold, Carver drafted Zoom. All the tactics drafted were to deal with speed.

It's just a thing that can't really be answered for, once you have a strong enough offence to take advantage of your speed...advantage.

Yep, and he'd win with ease as well. Unless he somehow tripped and fell through a portal that America punched into existence. She'd be their only hope. Overall, no team can beat him at his highest levels. He'd win before they began to make a move against him.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
Yep, and he'd win with ease as well. Unless he somehow tripped and fell through a portal that America punched into existence. She'd be their only hope. Overall, no team can beat him at his highest levels. He'd win before they began to make a move against him.

BFR is turned off.

And it's nice that Chavez knows where to punch so that he falls into it, having tripped on...yeah ok we're getting into PIS now. You're writing a story where he has to trip into a conveniently placed star hole, lol.

At his highest levels he blew the AntiMonitor up.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Stoic
Monica, and Adam are just as impressive. Besides who cares right? Flash would make them out to be either moving in slow motion, or not at all.

I like Monica and Adam A LOT but they are NOWHERE near Superman and Diana's level.

If what you meant is that in a forum setting their powers can be extrapolated into being as formidable as Clark and Diana's then I would agree.

HOWEVER, given your comments over several threads these past few days you seem to be vehemently against that form of reasoning and argue more toward actual depictions.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
BFR is turned off.

And it's nice that Chavez knows where to punch so that he falls into it, having tripped on...yeah ok we're getting into PIS now. You're writing a story where he has to trip into a conveniently placed star hole, lol.

At his highest levels he blew the AntiMonitor up.

Nah man, that was me saying that it would be the only way for them to win. BFR being turned off was just a convenient means of saying that it is impossible for them to win. Mostly any team would lose TBH, unless they had a method of dealing with his speed.

Galactus for example, would have no problem with speed steal, as he can control localized time effects like he did to the Sphinx long ago.

Not trying to bring Galactus into this, just wanted to show that the Flash wouldn't be able to instantly defeat everything that wasn't capable of moving as fast, or faster than he can, if of course you were under that impression.

Stoic
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I like Monica and Adam A LOT but they are NOWHERE near Superman and Diana's level.

If what you meant is that in a forum setting their powers can be extrapolated into being as formidable as Clark and Diana's then I would agree.

HOWEVER, given your comments over several threads these past few days you seem to be vehemently against that form of reasoning and argue more toward actual depictions.

I argue towards actual depictions because neither side can be fully ignored. If a character has the tools to win, they will. Rock, Paper, Scissor effect. CIS, PIS, Power Set, and several other underlining facts have to be taken into consideration. Power seems to be the only thing argued at times. People also insist on using a character at their most powerful. But then a double standard was made up for the Hulk. Shit, Imagine people arguing WB Hulk in every Hulk thread like they do for Superman? "Oh, he's immune to this, and that won't work on him, and he would do this before that happened, and magic is of no concern to him, and there are ways around Kryptonite," and.... You see how shit can become at times?

My point? -Pr- pointed this out long ago. It was quickly ignored, but we should always go by average portrayals so that double standards like the one that I mentioned should never occur.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Stoic
I argue towards actual depictions because neither side can be fully ignored. If a character has the tools to win, they will. Rock, Paper, Scissor effect. CIS, PIS, Power Set, and several other underlining facts have to be taken into consideration. Power seems to be the only thing argued at times. People also insist on using a character at their most powerful. But then a double standard was made up for the Hulk. Shit, Imagine people arguing WB Hulk in every Hulk thread like the do for Superman. "Oh, he's immune to this, and that won't work on him, and he would do this before that happened, and magic is of no concern to him, and there are ways around Kryptonite, and.... You see how shit can become at times?

My point? -Pr- pointed this out long ago. It was quickly ignored, but we should always go be average portrayals so that double standards like the one that mentioned should never occur.

You may have had a point until..

"Pr"

DON'T EVER MENTION THAT LEPRECHAUN REPROBATE TO ME AGAIN!!!

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol.

But in all seriousness, people are, for the most part, misunderstanding your (simple) question.

Can he?

The answer is of course, yes. It is certainly feasible to do so. With his speed, he can make this entire thread one-on-one.

Morrison's Flash, after all, was the one capable of running through as many battle simulations as needed to find the perfect battle tactic:
https://s5.postimg.org/a9y771wev/image.jpg

Morrison's Flash was the one who did the IMP.

Was the one who could run so fast, he time-travelled and made time clones:
https://s5.postimg.org/c2ns9iudz/image.jpg

So if anything, he could multiply himself, and then the Ultimates have multiple Flashes to handle.

Of course, there's Monica.

But Monica is slower than thought:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--U1DSF_wGYI/WOzhH8XZL2I/AAAAAAADJ4M/iIfFwJEi1WYvJw-nQN8TTo5hrCvpxEDBgCLcB/s1600/90_10.jpg

And when she's at her top speed (so slower than thought), America Chavez moves in slow motion compared to her:
http://i.imgur.com/0SWq6vN.png

And Flashes?
https://s5.postimg.org/5dzmch2l3/image.jpg

https://s5.postimg.org/iq6lqw9qv/image.jpg

I tried to stick to the parameters of the thread, and limited the showings to Morrison era Flash only.
You can't really penalize Monica because one writer stupidly decided that the speed of thought is faster than the speed of light for the sake of the story... it's just blatantly untrue. That why we ignored a similar statement a while back from Grodd when he was fighting Flash.

I mean Hell, I'm reasonably sure that that there are plenty of characters who've been stated to move at the speed of thought, but we don't actually credit them with being FTL.

Stoic
Originally posted by darthgoober
You can't really penalize Monica because one writer stupidly decided that the speed of thought is faster than the speed of light for the sake of the story... it's just blatantly untrue. That why we ignored a similar statement a while back from Grodd when he was fighting Flash.

I mean Hell, I'm reasonably sure that that there are plenty of characters who've been stated to move at the speed of thought, but we don't actually credit them with being FTL.

I recall that argument well. Glad you opened the can. He's still faster than she is though so it's not really relevant here, but good on you all the same.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Stoic
I recall that argument well. Glad you opened the can. He's still faster than she is though so it's not really relevant here, but good on you all the same.
Oh yeah no doubt, Flash is way faster than Monica. Monica typically functions at light speed or if she needs to do long distance space travel she turns into something like neutronos or tachyons. My whole point is simply that one erroneous instance doesn't suddenly make Monica slower than thought.

Stoic
Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh yeah no doubt, Flash is way faster than Monica. Monica typically functions at light speed or if she needs to do long distance space travel she turns into something like neutronos or tachyons. My whole point is simply that one erroneous instance doesn't suddenly make Monica slower than thought.

Agreed

Zack M
Originally posted by MrMind
lol at the idea of blue marvel and monica on superman level, stoic is smokin some serious shit

Right?

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Right?

They can fuse to become well above that level.

Zack M
Flash would still smoke them

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Flash would still smoke them

Yeah he'd smoke both teams if push came to shove.

Zack M
Remember when Wally moved so fast that Pre-Crisis Superman couldn't see him? And the fact that Wally lent speed to Superman and the league? That is what would happen here, if Wally isn't messing around.

Stoic
Originally posted by Zack M
Remember when Wally moved so fast that Pre-Crisis Superman couldn't see him? And the fact that Wally lent speed to Superman and the league? That is what would happen here, if Wally isn't messing around.


I agree. Flash stomps.

leonidas
flash has stolen the speed of a planet, he could certainly steal the speed of the league. in a forum setting flash could absolutely beat the league. we do have some depictions of superman being close but he doesn't (to my knowledge) have a way of handling a speed steal that could, potentially, leave him in the same state inertia was left in.

Stoic
Originally posted by leonidas
flash has stolen the speed of a planet, he could certainly steal the speed of the league. in a forum setting flash could absolutely beat the league. we do have some depictions of superman being close but he doesn't (to my knowledge) have a way of handling a speed steal that could, potentially, leave him in the same state inertia was left in.

Exactly, and none of them have an answer to his form of speed. The Speed Force is an awesome power source.

riv6672
Damn, this sucker picked up.
Thanks all.

spetznaz

riv6672
^^^Should've made this Flash Vs The LoSH...eek!

krisblaze
Originally posted by leonidas
flash has stolen the speed of a planet, he could certainly steal the speed of the league. in a forum setting flash could absolutely beat the league. we do have some depictions of superman being close but he doesn't (to my knowledge) have a way of handling a speed steal that could, potentially, leave him in the same state inertia was left in.

I don't for a second buy that the Flash could steal Superman's speed.

It's just him absorbing kinetic energy, and I don't see why his energy control should trump Superman or Jordan's.

He could cut them off from the speed-force, but that's only something that works on DC characters.

I think the Flash would win this because he could hammer them all to death at superspeed thumb up

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by krisblaze
I don't for a second buy that the Flash could steal Superman's speed.

It's just him absorbing kinetic energy, and I don't see why his energy control should trump Superman or Jordan's.

He could cut them off from the speed-force, but that's only something that works on DC characters.

I think the Flash would win this because he could hammer them all to death at superspeed thumb up

Jay Garrick has done it.

And he isn't as skilled as Wally.

krisblaze
Yeah it's just not consistent with the in-universe logic.

Anyone with control over kinetic energy could destroy any JLA lineup then.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by krisblaze
Yeah it's just not consistent with the in-universe logic.

Anyone with control over kinetic energy could destroy any JLA lineup then.

thumb up. Like a.....Flash? :P

It's like Hal and his will, I guess. Logically, his ring shouldn't have more than 100% will power, or he shouldn't override Guardians or whatever.

Wally is just connected to the kinetic energy of everyone,that's his shtick.

That's why we have PIS like he trips over something or whatever.

krisblaze
But manipulating the speed-force and absorbing kinetic energy is a bit different imo.

If he's manipulating the speed-force innate to someone or whatever then that's different from simply absorbing their kinetic energy.

Being connected to the speed-force is a property that is inherent in DC characters not ones from Marvel.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by krisblaze
But manipulating the speed-force and absorbing kinetic energy is a bit different imo.

If he's manipulating the speed-force innate to someone or whatever then that's different from simply absorbing their kinetic energy.

Being connected to the speed-force is a property that is inherent in DC characters not ones from Marvel.

Then one must ask...what is the speed force?

https://s5.postimg.org/7mie7jz2v/image.jpg

It seems to be synonymous with Kinetic energy.

spetznaz

DarkSaint85

spetznaz
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
N

Afaik, the SF connects everything that moves, not just speedsters, which is how the Flash can affect everyone and everything that's moving.

Interesting. Thanks for the update DS.

Sorry KrisB, the mistake was mine.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Flashes?
https://s5.postimg.org/5dzmch2l3/image.jpg



Was he lending his speed to Superdouche and Manjobber as well? Just wondering.

RealityWarper
Most characters in the team can solo.

Magnon
Flash easily solos, unless some PIS takes place.

(But this is a forum fight, so no PIS.)

Stoic
Originally posted by Magnon
Flash easily solos, unless some PIS takes place.

(But this is a forum fight, so no PIS.)

Even in a forum you use PIS to a small extent, or we wouldn't have any examples to go off of.

leonidas
Originally posted by krisblaze
I don't for a second buy that the Flash could steal Superman's speed.

It's just him absorbing kinetic energy, and I don't see why his energy control should trump Superman or Jordan's.

He could cut them off from the speed-force, but that's only something that works on DC characters.

I think the Flash would win this because he could hammer them all to death at superspeed thumb up

there's nothing to buy though--it's happened, on panel. easily. and he's just as easily leant his speed to the league. the speed force is the source of all motion--whoever controls is, controls motion, plain and simple. its one of the reasons flash is so haxx and that i don't debate him anymore.

saying his motion control wouldn't affect marvel guys goes against the forum rules sort of that state all powers work equally well. it's why we can argue that ss might be able to resist a speed steal--his own energy control might be able to counter a speed steal. i don't really know if i buy that, but we can argue it BECAUSE flash's motion control works fine in a forum setting against all opponents.

xJLxKing
Yeah, that recently, even Kid flash (Flash 31 i think) said he can effortlessly steal the momentum of things that are about to hit him like bullets...

krisblaze
Originally posted by leonidas
there's nothing to buy though--it's happened, on panel. easily. and he's just as easily leant his speed to the league. the speed force is the source of all motion--whoever controls is, controls motion, plain and simple. its one of the reasons flash is so haxx and that i don't debate him anymore.

saying his motion control wouldn't affect marvel guys goes against the forum rules sort of that state all powers work equally well. it's why we can argue that ss might be able to resist a speed steal--his own energy control might be able to counter a speed steal. i don't really know if i buy that, but we can argue it BECAUSE flash's motion control works fine in a forum setting against all opponents.

Flash has access to all of his powers but that doesn't necessarily mean that he will be able to abuse weaknesses that are inherent to DC characters.

The speed force doesn't exist in Marvel.

Cutting their connection to something they've never been connected to?

Are all Marvel characters connected to the, red, green and rot also then??

RealityWarper
Originally posted by krisblaze
Flash has access to all of his powers but that doesn't necessarily mean that he will be able to abuse weaknesses that are inherent to DC characters.

The speed force doesn't exist in Marvel.

Cutting their connection to something they've never been connected to?

Are all Marvel characters connected to the, red, green and rot also then??

That's what I pointed out and the answer was "everything work".

I guess it was implied that DC characters gain free and new abilities they doesn't possess, especially against Marvel characters.

On topic:

I agree with you and Flash shouldn't be able to manipulate the speed force inside characters whom aren't imbued by it.

leonidas
for forum purposes yeah, i think they are... there is no power cosmic in dc, but we assume ss's powers work exactly the same way. what you're suggesting makes sense in a comic setting (in fact we SAW flash cut off from the sf once in the marvel u) but it can't work in a forum setting. i don't think this is anything new....? confused

RealityWarper
Originally posted by leonidas
for forum purposes yeah, i think they are... there is no power cosmic in dc, but we assume ss's powers work exactly the same way. what you're suggesting makes sense in a comic setting (in fact we SAW flash cut off from the sf once in the marvel u) but it can't work in a forum setting. i don't think this is anything new....? confused

I guess that you mean the Cosmic Awareness, not the Power Cosmic.

krisblaze
Originally posted by leonidas
for forum purposes yeah, i think they are... there is no power cosmic in dc, but we assume ss's powers work exactly the same way. what you're suggesting makes sense in a comic setting (in fact we SAW flash cut off from the sf once in the marvel u) but it can't work in a forum setting. i don't think this is anything new....? confused

Im not saying Flash's powers shouldn't work. Are you being willfully obtuse here? stick out tongue

Im saying that we shouldn't assume that all characters are connected to company-specific abstract concepts.

The pink lanterns dont draw their powers from mistress love do they? Nor are DC mages all connected to the energy matrix in otherworld? Does the Britain Corps hold sway over the 52 universes in DC?
Are all DC telepaths connected to the neural net that the Shadow King dominated? Or connected to the game master?

It's just not workable.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by leonidas
for forum purposes yeah, i think they are... there is no power cosmic in dc, but we assume ss's powers work exactly the same way. what you're suggesting makes sense in a comic setting (in fact we SAW flash cut off from the sf once in the marvel u) but it can't work in a forum setting. i don't think this is anything new....? confused

This is interesting.

Should the Speed Force be assumed to be at play with Marvel characters? I think we should assume it would work like normal in the sense of super-speed but a specific weakness against another character? I mean, it's fair to assume the Flash can steal the kinetic energy of any character, but if the stealing of that kinetic energy is directed linked to a Speed Force connection, then it shouldn't be in play imo.

For the record, the way I remember it being described, the Speed Force is a separate force that didn't control all kinetic energy. It simply allowed Flash to steal kinetic energy through it's extra-dimensional energy properties.

DC has an interconnection between forces that serves as a strength. The weaknesses should be taken into account with that strength.

I don't think the Power Cosmic is the same thing for example. It's just another extra-dimensional source of energy that has only been used to above normal effects against other heralds, not other Marvel characters, much less DC characters. If the Surfer drained Terrax because of the Power Cosmic, and someone tried to use that as evidence against the Flash, I'd think that was stupid AF for example.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol.

But in all seriousness, people are, for the most part, misunderstanding your (simple) question.

Can he?

The answer is of course, yes. It is certainly feasible to do so. With his speed, he can make this entire thread one-on-one.

Morrison's Flash, after all, was the one capable of running through as many battle simulations as needed to find the perfect battle tactic:
https://s5.postimg.org/a9y771wev/image.jpg

Morrison's Flash was the one who did the IMP.

Was the one who could run so fast, he time-travelled and made time clones:
https://s5.postimg.org/c2ns9iudz/image.jpg

So if anything, he could multiply himself, and then the Ultimates have multiple Flashes to handle.

Of course, there's Monica.

But Monica is slower than thought:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--U1DSF_wGYI/WOzhH8XZL2I/AAAAAAADJ4M/iIfFwJEi1WYvJw-nQN8TTo5hrCvpxEDBgCLcB/s1600/90_10.jpg

And when she's at her top speed (so slower than thought), America Chavez moves in slow motion compared to her:
http://i.imgur.com/0SWq6vN.png

And Flashes?
https://s5.postimg.org/5dzmch2l3/image.jpg

https://s5.postimg.org/iq6lqw9qv/image.jpg

I tried to stick to the parameters of the thread, and limited the showings to Morrison era Flash only.

Tbf, speed of thought versus speed of light, isn't consistent across the board.

As a matter of fact, it's been used to trump the Flash in the past....

I get what you're saying, but it's a faulty argument. And an argument I wouldn't make with a character as inconsistent as the Flash. I could see Monica herself being an excellent and competitive opponent by herself, against even Morrison's Flash. He'd win, through a clever utilization of his power, but he'd put in work. She can transform into any type of energy including brain waves, become intangible and fight at FTL. Morrison would have a field day with that powerset.

For the record, the Flash might be faster than light, but the idea that he is consistently breezing around at ftl speeds is untrue. More than one instance, even post-Waid, had crossing light-barrier into the Speed Force being a serious strain.

As a matter of fact, some of the craziest feats he has accomplished being posted here, where he has other DC character's looking like statutes, are under the same writers who have him crossing light speed as a serious strain.

By those standards, Ms. Chavez moving in slow motion when Monica is in super-speed mode would put her a fair bit ahead of some particular characters. mhmm

Edit: I forgot this was against the entire team. Smh. Wally obviously losses. Don't be crackheads. Could he win? Yes, but he could win against the JLA too, but that shit wouldn't be likely either.

Stoic
The Flash is ridiculously fast. Too fast tbh. If Monica is arguably the fastest character on the Ultimates (light speed), this would make the Flash millions of times faster than she is. I mentioned her being arguably the fastest, because Blue Marvel has yet to be clocked, although it was written that he was somewhere around light speed, but no known speed speed cap was actually given. Anyway, like I said, the Flash is simply too fast.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Tbf, speed of thought versus speed of light, isn't consistent across the board.

As a matter of fact, it's been used to trump the Flash in the past....

I get what you're saying, but it's a faulty argument. And an argument I wouldn't make with a character as inconsistent as the Flash. I could see Monica herself being an excellent and competitive opponent by herself, against even Morrison's Flash. He'd win, through a clever utilization of his power, but he'd put in work. She can transform into any type of energy including brain waves, become intangible and fight at FTL. Morrison would have a field day with that powerset.

For the record, the Flash might be faster than light, but the idea that he is consistently breezing around at ftl speeds is untrue. More than one instance, even post-Waid, had crossing light-barrier into the Speed Force being a serious strain.

As a matter of fact, some of the craziest feats he has accomplished being posted here, where he has other DC character's looking like statutes, are under the same writers who have him crossing light speed as a serious strain.

By those standards, Ms. Chavez moving in slow motion when Monica is in super-speed mode would put her a fair bit ahead of some particular characters. mhmm

Edit: I forgot this was against the entire team. Smh. Wally obviously losses. Don't be crackheads. Could he win? Yes, but he could win against the JLA too, but that shit wouldn't be likely either.

Lol so IOW, as Wally could win (as you say in your last paragraph) we are all in agreement.

MrMind
for the love of god speed of thought and speed of light is not even in the same planet
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/1724531-supesflash15.jpg
flash has attosecond reaction time, 0.000000000000000001 second

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DavidParizh.shtml
speed of thought is 30 m/s (meter/second)
The speed of thought is obviously how fast impulses go from your brain to the rest of your body. That's measurable. It isn't undefined.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by MrMind
for the love of god speed of thought and speed of light is not even in the same planet
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/1724531-supesflash15.jpg
flash has attosecond reaction time, 0.000000000000000001 second

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DavidParizh.shtml
speed of thought is 30 m/s (meter/second)
The speed of thought is obviously how fast impulses go from your brain to the rest of your body. That's measurable. It isn't undefined.

Writers in comics treat speed of thought > light sometimes. It's not about real life comparison. It's how it is in some instances.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by MrMind
for the love of god speed of thought and speed of light is not even in the same planet
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80518/1724531-supesflash15.jpg
flash has attosecond reaction time, 0.000000000000000001 second

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DavidParizh.shtml
speed of thought is 30 m/s (meter/second)
The speed of thought is obviously how fast impulses go from your brain to the rest of your body. That's measurable. It isn't undefined.
Not in comics.

Speed of thought is up there with speed of light more often than not.

Zack M
Do you guys have examples? The only writer I know that had Speed of thought>>>Speed of light is Chris Claremont. But, he's the same writer who had Psylocke beat Iron Man. lo

MrMind
Originally posted by Zack M
Do you guys have examples? The only writer I know that had Speed of thought>>>Speed of light is Chris Claremont. But, he's the same writer who had Psylocke beat Iron Man. lo

There is no evidence because its not true, only an idiot would think otherwise, and if we take the words of idiots we might as well gracefully accept every PIS feats there is

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by MrMind
There is no evidence because its not true, only an idiot would think otherwise, and if we take the words of idiots we might as well gracefully accept every PIS feats there is

http://i.imgur.com/jJngQ6l.jpg

Thought > Light

Not the only time it's mentioned against Grodd. Not the only time it's been mentioned in comics.

You took a firm stance on something you're ignorant about, were corrected, and chose to entrench your opinion even harder, calling those who disagree an idiot? Bro, you're the idiot here.

No one is arguing light vs. thought in real life. We're just giving you information. For some reason it seems to be blowing your mind. Not sure why, it's comics.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Zack M
Do you guys have examples? The only writer I know that had Speed of thought>>>Speed of light is Chris Claremont. But, he's the same writer who had Psylocke beat Iron Man. lo

Originally posted by MrMind
There is no evidence because its not true, only an idiot would think otherwise, and if we take the words of idiots we might as well gracefully accept every PIS feats there is

https://i.imgur.com/sw8Wqfz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Vi3CyjT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KKGpaEY.png
https://i.imgur.com/GpRr8aL.png

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MaTv05dKCQY/WOzhHlcChaI/AAAAAAADJ4I/qmx7y5_rYTUxYjRaCEBsMEoo-03rMjmBQCLcB/s1600/90_09.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--U1DSF_wGYI/WOzhH8XZL2I/AAAAAAADJ4M/iIfFwJEi1WYvJw-nQN8TTo5hrCvpxEDBgCLcB/s1600/90_10.jpg

leonidas
Originally posted by krisblaze
Im not saying Flash's powers shouldn't work. Are you being willfully obtuse here? stick out tongue

Im saying that we shouldn't assume that all characters are connected to company-specific abstract concepts.

The pink lanterns dont draw their powers from mistress love do they? Nor are DC mages all connected to the energy matrix in otherworld? Does the Britain Corps hold sway over the 52 universes in DC?
Are all DC telepaths connected to the neural net that the Shadow King dominated? Or connected to the game master?

It's just not workable.

i'm not saying he can cut them off from the sf though--you're right, that wouldn't make any sense. but stealing kinetic energy isn't cutting them off from the speed force. there's no reason he couldn't speed steal all their speed--after all he has stolen the speed of surtur, and even an entire planet...

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This is interesting.

Should the Speed Force be assumed to be at play with Marvel characters? I think we should assume it would work like normal in the sense of super-speed but a specific weakness against another character? I mean, it's fair to assume the Flash can steal the kinetic energy of any character, but if the stealing of that kinetic energy is directed linked to a Speed Force connection, then it shouldn't be in play imo.

For the record, the way I remember it being described, the Speed Force is a separate force that didn't control all kinetic energy. It simply allowed Flash to steal kinetic energy through it's extra-dimensional energy properties.

i agree. the sf is the source of all motion in dc afaik, and having control of it allows control of motion, or kinetic energy. that control has never to my knowledge been superseded.



maybe. what i'm saying is that were ss dropped into the dcu (without galactus present) it seems likely (or at least reasonable) to me that he would be powerless. if the pc stems from galactus, and there is no galactus... but in a forum setting we assume the pc works fine in a completely neutral setting.

i dunno, maybe i wasn't very clear with an early post. feels like we're sort of all on the same wavelength though.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This is interesting.

Should the Speed Force be assumed to be at play with Marvel characters? I think we should assume it would work like normal in the sense of super-speed but a specific weakness against another character? I mean, it's fair to assume the Flash can steal the kinetic energy of any character, but if the stealing of that kinetic energy is directed linked to a Speed Force connection, then it shouldn't be in play imo.

For the record, the way I remember it being described, the Speed Force is a separate force that didn't control all kinetic energy. It simply allowed Flash to steal kinetic energy through it's extra-dimensional energy properties.

DC has an interconnection between forces that serves as a strength. The weaknesses should be taken into account with that strength.

I don't think the Power Cosmic is the same thing for example. It's just another extra-dimensional source of energy that has only been used to above normal effects against other heralds, not other Marvel characters, much less DC characters. If the Surfer drained Terrax because of the Power Cosmic, and someone tried to use that as evidence against the Flash, I'd think that was stupid AF for example.
This definition is the correct

Prior to Barry creating the Speed Force, characters still had kinetic energy without the SF existing.

Zack M
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
https://i.imgur.com/sw8Wqfz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Vi3CyjT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KKGpaEY.png
https://i.imgur.com/GpRr8aL.png

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MaTv05dKCQY/WOzhHlcChaI/AAAAAAADJ4I/qmx7y5_rYTUxYjRaCEBsMEoo-03rMjmBQCLcB/s1600/90_09.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--U1DSF_wGYI/WOzhH8XZL2I/AAAAAAADJ4M/iIfFwJEi1WYvJw-nQN8TTo5hrCvpxEDBgCLcB/s1600/90_10.jpg

Thanks. thumb up

leonidas
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
https://i.imgur.com/sw8Wqfz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Vi3CyjT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KKGpaEY.png
https://i.imgur.com/GpRr8aL.png

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MaTv05dKCQY/WOzhHlcChaI/AAAAAAADJ4I/qmx7y5_rYTUxYjRaCEBsMEoo-03rMjmBQCLcB/s1600/90_09.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--U1DSF_wGYI/WOzhH8XZL2I/AAAAAAADJ4M/iIfFwJEi1WYvJw-nQN8TTo5hrCvpxEDBgCLcB/s1600/90_10.jpg

there's also the scan of xavier speaking telepathically to lilandra instantaneously over a distance equal to the earth to the heart of the shi'ar imperium. there is absolutely no question that thought CAN be FAR greater than light speed in comics.

leonidas
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Tbf, speed of thought versus speed of light, isn't consistent across the board.

As a matter of fact, it's been used to trump the Flash in the past....

I get what you're saying, but it's a faulty argument. And an argument I wouldn't make with a character as inconsistent as the Flash. I could see Monica herself being an excellent and competitive opponent by herself, against even Morrison's Flash. He'd win, through a clever utilization of his power, but he'd put in work. She can transform into any type of energy including brain waves, become intangible and fight at FTL. Morrison would have a field day with that powerset.

For the record, the Flash might be faster than light, but the idea that he is consistently breezing around at ftl speeds is untrue. More than one instance, even post-Waid, had crossing light-barrier into the Speed Force being a serious strain.

As a matter of fact, some of the craziest feats he has accomplished being posted here, where he has other DC character's looking like statutes, are under the same writers who have him crossing light speed as a serious strain.

By those standards, Ms. Chavez moving in slow motion when Monica is in super-speed mode would put her a fair bit ahead of some particular characters. mhmm

Edit: I forgot this was against the entire team. Smh. Wally obviously losses. Don't be crackheads. Could he win? Yes, but he could win against the JLA too, but that shit wouldn't be likely either.

i agree with all of this in a comic book setting. a forum setting is completely different though and flash would utterly wreck both teams if we assume he is operating at his best.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by leonidas
there's also the scan of xavier speaking telepathically to lilandra instantaneously over a distance equal to the earth to the heart of the shi'ar imperium. there is absolutely no question that thought CAN be FAR greater than light speed in comics.

thumb up

Narrator has stated in the Uncanny X-Men First Class run that the speed of thought cannot be quantified.

MrMind
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
http://i.imgur.com/jJngQ6l.jpg

Thought > Light

Not the only time it's mentioned against Grodd. Not the only time it's been mentioned in comics.

You took a firm stance on something you're ignorant about, were corrected, and chose to entrench your opinion even harder, calling those who disagree an idiot? Bro, you're the idiot here.

No one is arguing light vs. thought in real life. We're just giving you information. For some reason it seems to be blowing your mind. Not sure why, it's comics.

the writer is an idiot who does not understand science and if you agree with him you are an idiot as well. i dont have to take his idiotic stance because its on panel. you might as well say there is no PIS and writer error

MrMind
if we cant apply real world science to comics, and accept everything the writer say no matter how dumb, then where does it end, might as well throw all the calculation out of window, no logic and common sense needed. you guys have fun debating like that

xJLxKing
Originally posted by MrMind
if we cant apply real world science to comics, and accept everything the writer say no matter how dumb, then where does it end, might as well throw all the calculation out of window, no logic and common sense needed. you guys have fun debating like that
When writers are idiots, this is the issue

This is why Dragonball is something you can't argue. The writer is a complete fu****ing moron when it comes to consistency.

Regardless, when you read that though>light, you have to suspend you believe the same way we suspend belief that Kryptonian looks exactly like a human.

Anyways, those scans are almost never used to say Flash>his opponents. Most people use it as an outlier

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by MrMind
if we cant apply real world science to comics

We never really could.

And thought's been consistently faster than light in numerous books...

leonidas
yeah, because thought>light is the BIG difference between comics and reality.... lol should we make a list of everything that happens in comics that would be impossible in the real world? geezus....

MrMind
of course comics dont make real world sense, getting bitten by radioactive spider doesnt give you super power, kryptonians dont exists

that's not the issue here, when we argue about characters power set, there needs to be basic real world science, like speed of light faster than speed of thoughts, regardless of what on panel says. kinda like knife can pierce through human skins, you know... common sense.

MrMind
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
We never really could.

And thought's been consistently faster than light in numerous books...

if we never apply real world science then how does wolverine's claw pierce through human

leonidas
Originally posted by MrMind
of course comics dont make real world sense, getting bitten by radioactive spider doesnt give you super power, kryptonians dont exists

that's not the issue here, when we argue about characters power set, there needs to be basic real world science, like speed of light faster than speed of thoughts, regardless of what on panel says. kinda like knife can pierce through human skins, you know... common sense.

since we don't have real world tp, who's to say it wouldn't travel ftl? how does logan move with an adamantium skeleton and joints lined with unbreakable metal? i see nothing at all unreasonable about something as esoteric as thought being faster than light in a world where THAT is not even a blip on the scale of unbelievability.

MrMind
Originally posted by leonidas
since we don't have real world tp, who's to say it wouldn't travel ftl? how does logan move with an adamantium skeleton and joints lined with unbreakable metal? i see nothing at all unreasonable about something as esoteric as thought being faster than light in a world where THAT is not even a blip on the scale of unbelievability.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/DavidParizh.shtml
speed of thought is 30 m/s (meter/second)
The speed of thought is obviously how fast impulses go from your brain to the rest of your body. That's measurable. It isn't undefined.

basic science still apply to comic, like the harder you hit the more damage you make, the harder you jump, the higher you go

cdtm
Originally posted by leonidas
on the forum absolutely--in fact you'd need to low ball him to give them a chance. in a comic he would have no chance.

Depends on the comic. Chain Lightning Wally beats just about anyone.

darthgoober
Originally posted by leonidas
since we don't have real world tp, who's to say it wouldn't travel ftl? how does logan move with an adamantium skeleton and joints lined with unbreakable metal? i see nothing at all unreasonable about something as esoteric as thought being faster than light in a world where THAT is not even a blip on the scale of unbelievability.
Except for all the characters(even street level guys) that have "moved at the speed of thought" as told by the omniscient narrator. When there's a contradiction of this nature in regards to the basic laws of physics/reality, personally I let the the real world serve as the tie breaker.

TheHulkster
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
https://i.imgur.com/sw8Wqfz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Vi3CyjT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KKGpaEY.png
https://i.imgur.com/GpRr8aL.png

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MaTv05dKCQY/WOzhHlcChaI/AAAAAAADJ4I/qmx7y5_rYTUxYjRaCEBsMEoo-03rMjmBQCLcB/s1600/90_09.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--U1DSF_wGYI/WOzhH8XZL2I/AAAAAAADJ4M/iIfFwJEi1WYvJw-nQN8TTo5hrCvpxEDBgCLcB/s1600/90_10.jpg

A few more:

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111200398/5710750-6491819198-45322.jpg

https://m.imgur.com/GGYtBGI

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/MachineMan616/media/cGF0aDovU3RyYW5nZUFkdmVudHVyZXNfMDE2XzA4LmpwZw==/?ref=

http://comichappy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Cyborg-2016-016-019.jpg

StiltmanFTW
https://tinyurl.com/yabkkykl

riv6672
Perfect time to say, what a great conversation. thumb up

krisblaze
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not saying he can cut them off from the sf though--you're right, that wouldn't make any sense. but stealing kinetic energy isn't cutting them off from the speed force. there's no reason he couldn't speed steal all their speed--after all he has stolen the speed of surtur, and even an entire planet...
Sure, we agree. As long as it's because of his ability to absorb kinetic energy and not through speed-force specific shenanigans thumb up

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Was he lending his speed to Superdouche and Manjobber as well? Just wondering.

Later on, he does,but not there.

Morrison's Flash, at least in the examples I posted, was faster than thought, as was Superman.

Later on, Superman needed Flash to help him be faster than light, to outrace a Zeta beam.

riv6672
So light is faster than thought?

DarkSaint85
Apparently so, under Morrison.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11114/111147274/3693680-9875560236-35538.jpg

Makes sense. Speed of thought isn't all that - I mean, I can't think faster than a light beam.

leonidas
Originally posted by krisblaze
Sure, we agree. As long as it's because of his ability to absorb kinetic energy and not through speed-force specific shenanigans thumb up

depends. his ability to control motions COMES from his control of the speed force, like ss's ability to transmute elements COMES from the pc. but you wouldn't say ss couldn't transmute a dc guy, right? if you agree with that, then yep, we are in agreement overall. if you don't you should get out of the cold. sneer

leonidas
Originally posted by darthgoober
Except for all the characters(even street level guys) that have "moved at the speed of thought" as told by the omniscient narrator. When there's a contradiction of this nature in regards to the basic laws of physics/reality, personally I let the the real world serve as the tie breaker.

that doesn't make the scans that state thought>light invalid in anyway. it's simply a gray area not well defined by writers and not consistently shown. all the kicking and screaming in the world won't change the fact that yes, in comics, thought CAN and HAS been portrayed as>light. i honestly can't believe it's an issue at all. batman dodges lasers regularly, goes h2h with people like ww and somehow i'm supposed to be up in arms that xavier can send his thoughts 100s of light years in an instant? lol sorry, that isn't going to happen. this is simply one more comic world inconsistency that can't be resolved. add it to the list.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Apparently so, under Morrison.

Makes sense. Speed of thought isn't all that - I mean, I can't think faster than a light beam.

Where does it say that?

Not doubting you, I'm pretty sure Flash was faster than thought in that comic actually but not that Light > Thought.

DarkSaint85
My later scan. Superman says he's not faster than light.....but previously, he was faster than thou8 (My first scan from that storyline)

darthgoober
Originally posted by leonidas
that doesn't make the scans that state thought>light invalid in anyway. it's simply a gray area not well defined by writers and not consistently shown. all the kicking and screaming in the world won't change the fact that yes, in comics, thought CAN and HAS been portrayed as>light. i honestly can't believe it's an issue at all. batman dodges lasers regularly, goes h2h with people like ww and somehow i'm supposed to be up in arms that xavier can send his thoughts 100s of light years in an instant? lol sorry, that isn't going to happen. this is simply one more comic world inconsistency that can't be resolved. add it to the list.
Oh I absolutely agree that it CAN be portrayed as being faster than light, just that it shouldn't be assumed that the thoughts of a normal human are that way automatically. For instance I totally believe that the Flash can think faster than light(otherwise he'd always be running into stuff), but not Jimmy Olson. And there's a certain logic to say that powerful psi's are +light when they're working on the astral plane or in maybe even just inside someone's mind, but it makes no sense AT ALL to consider thought>light in general for the whole of the comic reality. Such a notion would effectively give EVERYONE in comics(aside from the specifically slow minded) FTL reflexes.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Apparently so, under Morrison.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11114/111147274/3693680-9875560236-35538.jpg

Makes sense. Speed of thought isn't all that - I mean, I can't think faster than a light beam.
That's Mark Waid. Morrison's Superman was FTL.

Waid has never shown any character explicitly FTL TBH. Even Flash went into speed force when he went lightspeed.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--OZo7hIBxEA/Vnve26y9SzI/AAAAAAAAKDo/LdvqGoB680k/s1600-Ic42/RCO021.jpg

Flash v2 94 if you are curious.

krisblaze
Like Abhi said, the arc Terminal Velocity in particular really highlights how big a deal lightspeed was to Waid.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Waid had Wally surpass light, but it was a struggle.

TheHulkster

riv6672
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Apparently so, under Morrison.


Makes sense. Speed of thought isn't all that - I mean, I can't think faster than a light beam.
^^^Yeah i've had the speed of thought discussion before.
nice thing is, your scan puts Supes firmly under Wally speedwise.

leonidas
Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I absolutely agree that it CAN be portrayed as being faster than light, just that it shouldn't be assumed that the thoughts of a normal human are that way automatically. For instance I totally believe that the Flash can think faster than light(otherwise he'd always be running into stuff), but not Jimmy Olson. And there's a certain logic to say that powerful psi's are +light when they're working on the astral plane or in maybe even just inside someone's mind, but it makes no sense AT ALL to consider thought>light in general for the whole of the comic reality. Such a notion would effectively give EVERYONE in comics(aside from the specifically slow minded) FTL reflexes.

i'd have sort of thought that went without saying... you need to show proof that thought is faster, and it is something (because of the inconsistency) that needs to be proven on a case-by-case basis.

i also agree with hulkster--it's not an actual measure of neuronal speeds. it's defined more esoterically (which is what i was saying earlier) in comics and therefore is not subject to the same blanket laws as it is in the real world. also something that i can't believe needed to be reiterated given all the evidence.

DarkSaint85
I personally think we're looking at it the wrong way.

The speed of thought is essentially what others have called 'reflex speed'.

Assuming I could transmute things with a thought. You throw a ball at my face.

As soon as I think 'turn into a giant marshmallow', it happens. But I have to recognise it's a ball (or at least, that something is headed for my face) pluck the concept of a marshmallow (instead of turning it into an anvil) and then think it.

That's the speed of thought. Once I have thought it, there isn't a delay or time lag before the ball becomes a marshmallow (or at least, that hasn't been shown traditionally in comics).

Hence the various inconsistencies. It's due to differing reflex speeds.

darthgoober
Originally posted by leonidas
i'd have sort of thought that went without saying... you need to show proof that thought is faster, and it is something (because of the inconsistency) that needs to be proven on a case-by-case basis.

i also agree with hulkster--it's not an actual measure of neuronal speeds. it's defined more esoterically (which is what i was saying earlier) in comics and therefore is not subject to the same blanket laws as it is in the real world. also something that i can't believe needed to be reiterated given all the evidence.
Yeah it seems obvious to me too, but the original point I was addressing was that Flash and comp were faster than thought while Monica was slower than thought when the circumstances behind each instance where very different(and don't get me wrong, I freely acknowledge that guys like Flash are faster than she). My issue was with the blanket statement that Monica is slower than thought when in actuality she's simply slower than the thoughts of some extraordinary individuals. But even DS seems to have amended his stance so I don't really have any issues with anything anyone is talking about now.

DarkSaint85
Pfft.

I used the thought scans as an easy way to just say hey, he's faster than her.

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pfft.

I used the thought scans as an easy way to just say hey, he's faster than her.
Yeah but those scans themselves don't demonstrate such a thing, that line of reasoning simply lowballs Monica. Any of the number of FTL scans that exist for him would have been a better way to support your stance.

DarkSaint85
That was the first scan I could think of which had recent Monica and an explicit limit on her speed,that's all.

I'm sure there are prob others, but that was a nice recent one.

darthgoober
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That was the first scan I could think of which had recent Monica and an explicit limit on her speed,that's all.

I'm sure there are prob others, but that was a nice recent one.
Well I didn't follow a lot of the discussion before I jumped in, but was anyone suggesting that Monica in light form was somehow massively faster than light? Simple common sense should be enough to dispel that notion.

However on the off chance that someone DID suggest such a thing let me just say to them THAT'S FREAKING DUMB! If she's made of light, she's moves at light speed. I mean I suppose if she's moving at lightspeed in general and throws a punch or something that her fist would be moving at lightspeed+the speed of a normal punch by her, but that would be relatively inconsequential. The ONLY way she ever really goes faster than light is by turning into neutrinos which she only does for long distance space travel and as far as I know that form has never demonstrated any kind of offensive capabilities.

Stoic
@Darksaint I want to argue that thought can be much faster than light in a sense.

If I came from a planet 17 million light years away, and I had the ability to reach any destination by thinking about where I want to be, and then be there in an instant, I would reach the destination well before light. It would be to the point that my grand children's grand children would die of old age before light ever reached my home world. So in that way, thought can be much much faster than light, if we were to look at it in that perspective. I know that it may seem lame, but we had this debate on KMC years ago, and no one seemed to get what I was saying, so I dropped it.

DarkSaint85
I just see that as teleportation, however,not the speed of thought.

Which, yeah, could be faster than lightspeed.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I just see that as teleportation, however,not the speed of thought.

Which, yeah, could be faster than lightspeed.

What if I had the ability to instantly mind rape someone in an instant from that distance? This is kind of like the example of a Honda Civic (unmodified) being able to beat a truck with 18 gears to the finish line that is one mile away, but if we were to make this race 30 miles, the truck would catch up and pass the Honda, providing that it was a straightaway race with no turns.

In this case the speed of thought is much faster over longer distances. This is something that I mentioned, but still no one seemed to get it.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Stoic
What if I had the ability to instantly mind rape someone in an instant from that distance? This is kind of like the example of a Honda Civic (unmodified) being able to beat a truck with 18 gears to the finish line that is one mile away, but if we were to make this race 30 miles, the truck would catch up and pass the Honda, providing that it was a straightaway race with no turns.

In this case the speed of thought is much faster over longer distances. This is something that I mentioned, but still no one seemed to get it.

Same argument, I guess.

Like teleporting an apple into someone's head, from Mars.

Imagine someone like, say, the Spot. Or Blink, or Nightcrawler.

If they ported their fist into you, or whatever, across the galaxy... It's the speed of transmission which is faster than say, flying or running or whatever.

But no one would say Kurt or Ohm is 'faster' per se, than sound or light.

Imo.

Stoic
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same argument, I guess.

Like teleporting an apple into someone's head, from Mars.

Imagine someone like, say, the Spot. Or Blink, or Nightcrawler.

If they ported their fist into you, or whatever, across the galaxy... It's the speed of transmission which is faster than say, flying or running or whatever.

But no one would say Kurt or Ohm is 'faster' per se, than sound or light.

Imo.

Except for the idea that I had to think before making the action. Remember my first post when I did say in a sense the speed of thought can be faster? Well over longer distances it is, because I can think of a planet 17 million light years away, far faster than light will be able to travel there. If you don't see it that way fine, but I do.

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