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Who wins?

I'm currently of the opinion that Krayt would win.

Comment below if you agree or disagree. If more people disagree, I'll change my mind.

Originally posted by Geistalt
If more people disagree, I'll change my mind.
lol

I don't have any conviction of my own, and it's Star Wars; pretty much every character's saber skill and Force strength is subjective.

Originally posted by Geistalt
I don't have any conviction of my own, and it's Star Wars; pretty much every character's saber skill and Force strength is subjective.
What does the subjectivity of Star Wars have to do with you appealing to the mass?

I'm just trying to make a Sabers ranking list that people will agree with.

Dooku.

A'Sharad did reasonably well against Obi-Wan while he was infinitely pre-prime. He was stated to have spent the century after "perfecting his combat technique," after killing "countless" (or was it "thousands?" of opponents. Most prominently, Reborn Krayt defeated Cade Skywalker pretty damn easily by tapping him on the chest with dark transfer. Krayt being a Jar'kai wielder could have easily swapped his palm out for the lightsaber in his hand.

Cade himself has got a laundry list of impressive lightsaber feats, so I'm not sure Dooku would as easily defeat him. I would also say Krayt is more powerful than Dooku, which typically factors into your skill as a duelist.

I think a case can be made for Krayt winning, for sure, although it'd be a stellar fight.

Dooku.

Originally posted by Geistalt
I'm just trying to make a Sabers ranking list that people will agree with.
As you just pointed out, this board is pretty subjective. You won't be able to make that list.

Originally posted by ILS
Most prominently, Reborn Krayt defeated Cade Skywalker pretty damn easily by tapping him on the chest with dark transfer.

Define easy. My calcs put their fight to at least 2 minutes, iirc.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Define easy. My calcs put their fight to at least 2 minutes, iirc. This is all we see of their fight.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4236088-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%282o6%29.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4236089-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%283o6%29.jpg

Krayt didn't look like he was very troubled at all. If we assume that everything we see in the break between those two pages is happening after the first page and before the second, rather than concurrently with them, then yes, the fight would be quite long. If not, the fight seems quite decisive. Krayt also didn't want to kill Cade, he was trying to recruit him, so there's that.

Originally posted by ILS
Krayt didn't look like he was very troubled at all. If we assume that everything we see in the break between those two pages is happening after the first page and before the second, rather than concurrently with them, then yes, the fight would be quite long.

I don't see why we should assume differently.

Originally posted by ILS
If not, the fight seems quite decisive. Krayt also didn't want to kill Cade, he was trying to recruit him, so there's that.

Well if you look only at the end of the Anakin vs Kenobi fight it also looks decisive. And not wanting to kill someone pretty much only stops you from decapitating them. Injurying/disarming someone is far easier than outright killing them so I never really bought these excuses.

Being conflicted is one thing (in case of Yoda vs Dooku, or Mace vs Bulq for example), having plans for someone is quite different.

At the time A'Sharad fought Obi-Wan he was firmly in the 2nd tier of elite duelists i.e: anyone not named Yoda, Sidious, Mace or "zone Anakin". If you consider Dooku, Maul and Obi-Wan at the top and Quinlan Vos, Savage, Ventress, A'Sharad etc. below them(but still in the same tier), then Vong Krayt should take this based on scaling alone.

Originally posted by Unbowed
At the time A'Sharad fought Obi-Wan he was firmly in the 2nd tier of elite duelists i.e: anyone not named Yoda, Sidious, Mace or "zone Anakin". If you consider Dooku, Maul and Obi-Wan at the top and Quinlan Vos, Savage, Ventress, A'Sharad etc. below them(but still in the same tier), then Vong Krayt should take this based on scaling alone.
A'Sharad was on par with Savage and Ventress and in the same tier as Dooku and Maul? Let's not get ridiculous, all those four absolutely murder him based on feats and accolades.

Dooku:
Stigma
DarthAnt66
cs_zoltan

Krayt:
ILS
Unbowed

Originally posted by Geistalt
Dooku:
cs_zoltan

Uh wat

2nd tier? IIRC, A'Sharad only competed with Obi-Wan under a slew of beneficial circumstances.

Originally posted by Sirion_Of_Doom
A'Sharad was on par with Savage and Ventress and in the same tier as Dooku and Maul? Let's not get ridiculous, all those four absolutely murder him based on feats and accolades.
I don't think so. Hett is being shortchanged here because he lost to Obi-Wan on Tatooine, but Obi-Wan was in full protect Luke/not ****ing around mode.

Look what happened to Old Master Maul in similar circumstances. I'd argue that if it meant protecting Luke's life, Obi-Wan would beat anyone on that list including Dooku.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2nd tier? IIRC, A'Sharad only competed with Obi-Wan under a slew of beneficial circumstances.
What circumstances are those?

Krayt, great fight

Originally posted by Unbowed
I don't think so. Hett is being shortchanged here because he lost to Obi-Wan on Tatooine, but Obi-Wan was in full protect Luke/not ****ing around mode.

lul

FYI this is the part when Kenobi went full protect Luke/not ****ing around mode:

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's .

Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

Definitely Maul+ showing

But as the LeGenD of Krayt I don't expect you to concede that.

Originally posted by Unbowed
What circumstances are those?

Mostly environmental advantages, and the implication that Obi-Wan's skills might have been slightly tarnished from disuse even if his reflexes haven't been dulled:



It also seems that he held back till the end.

Originally posted by ILS
A'Sharad did reasonably well against Obi-Wan while he was infinitely pre-prime.

Obi wan isn't really known for eliminating people quickly. The fight may not have been a total wreckage, but Hett probably lasted no longer than that magnagaurd the former fought aboard the Invisible Hand. Internal notes from the Life and Legend of Kenobi suggest that when he decided to get serious, the fight ended swiftly. We then have to mitigate Krayt's favourable environment... and then there's the added moral restrictions Obi Wan places on himself - he's wasn't trying to kill Hett, whittling Kenobi's options to non-fatal strikes - such a severing an arm or a hand. Hett however, was trying to kill Ben.




Thematically speaking, this theory is opening up a can of worms. I now have to assume that anytime a melee strike occurs that it's a mark of grater skill had there only been a saber in the hand delivering it. Mechanically speaking, you have to account for a lightsaber's larger arc of motion. You also have to consider how one postures themselves and reacts to danger when confronted with a glowing stick of death compared to a bare hand. Given that, I'm not willing to imagine Krayt with another saber in said scenario, because i'd have to assume that Cade would react differently.



He's still several generations diluted from Anakin, with less training and more time dulling his own powers with drugs.



I'd say there about the same in power (tier 8). Dooku with more skill and more specialised form for duelling. As far as force feats go, Krayt hasn't shown me anything more impressive than Maul, someone on Dooku's level.

The home advantage point is valid but the rest aren't. The difference in age is irrelevant since Obi-Wan is still pretty young himself, and his form relies on defense and using his energy conservatively. And as far as being rusty, the same would be true for Hett. While he probably engaged in tribal warfare with other Tuskens, that's a far cry from lightsaber dueling.

Anyway, I never argued that Hett was as strong as Obi-Wan. Just that whenever Obi-Wan is protecting Luke he's automatically at peak performance, punching above his usual weight. On the other hand Hett lost his way, just like Maul, and was reduced to leading a Tusken Crip gang. If they dueled under normal circumstances Obi-Wan would have found it much harder.

And also note that Obi-Wan beat Hett by offensively using the Force, not pure lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by Shadilaay
Obi wan isn't really known for eliminating people quickly. The fight may not have been a total wreckage, but Hett probably lasted no longer than that magnagaurd the former fought aboard the Invisible Hand. Internal notes from the Life and Legend of Kenobi suggest that when he decided to get serious, the fight ended swiftly. We then have to mitigate Krayt's favourable environment... and then there's the added moral restrictions Obi Wan places on himself - he's wasn't trying to kill Hett, whittling Kenobi's options to non-fatal strikes - such a severing an arm or a hand. Hett however, was trying to kill Ben. Magnaguards are a dubious measuring stick, given that Fisto and Maul have both wrecked them very quickly, as has TCW Anakin. Hett at least caused Obi-Wan serious issues and landed a hit on him.

Obi-Wan places such moral restrictions on himself in all of his fights, unless you can post a quote showing otherwise (which I'm on board with).

And again, the point of this is A'Sharad went from this rather mediocre state to having favourable comparisons to Caedus and Luke, "perfecting his combat technique" over a century, killing thousands of opponents, and having his powers "multiply" by his peak.

Do you consider a fight won when a lightsaber goes through the opponent?

Krayt was duel wielding in this scenario, there's no reason assume he couldn't have swapped out his hand for a straight puncture wound or even a wider slash that cuts through everything in it's path. In any case, I'm not interested in entering a debate of semantics and mechanics when it's fairly clear that Krayt is superior to Cade in an obvious way. As a benchmark, he had a far harder time disposing of Cade when they first fought, before they both had a power increase, so clearly Krayt's was more substantial.

He dulled his powers with drugs at the beginning of the series, but it's noted that his powers had increased remarkably as he got more experience under his belt. Talon notices a large difference by the end of the book.

Obi-Wan didn't defeat Anakin in two comic pages, either, nor did he defeat an Anakin in his right frame of mind.

Well, I'm not making any promises of finishing this debate, as I have a few other things I want to do. Let me know what you think of my points.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2nd tier? IIRC, A'Sharad only competed with Obi-Wan under a slew of beneficial circumstances.
Which is exactly what I'd expect from the likes of Ventress and especially from Oppress who got fodderized by Kenobi in a matter of seconds with backup.

Not sure why He needs to be a match for Kenobi to be on the level of Kenobi's inferiors.

Though it's fairly generous to put the likes of Oppress and legends Vos on the same tier as Kenobi or Maul.

Originally posted by ILS
Talon notices a large difference by the end of the book.

You mean this in Legacy War#5?

https://puu.sh/zb3hu/422bd3c2d1.png

Also, Hett wasn't anywhere close to wrecked with the lightsaber. Kenobi only won by making use of telekenesis.

Going with Dooku, in a good fight. His lightsaber abilities are more substantiated, thanks to his many accolades and feats, and he holds up pretty well in Force power too.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You mean this in Legacy War#5?

https://puu.sh/zb3hu/422bd3c2d1.png I believe so.

Originally posted by ILS
I believe so.

Well Talon fought Cade in Legacy War#3, so it's unlikely she refered to any earlier incarnation of Cade.

Just to help your argument along.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was that not a quick skirmish where Talon knocked Cade over and fled? Or was it a serious battle?

It wasn't any shorter than their fight in #5, I don't see how she couldn't have sensed his power.

All the better, either way.

Talon got quite the beatdown from Cade at the end. He beat her black and blue all the way to Krayt's throne room, depositing her at his feet.

Dooku:
Stigma
DarthAnt66
cs_zoltan
SunRazer
Shadilay (not counting)

Krayt:
ILS
Unbowed
Azronger
Rockydonovang
Ursumeles (correct me if I'm wrong)

I still never said Dooku wins.

Oh; I forgot Sirion_Of_Doom in the list of Dooku supporters.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-28-2018/vojWll.gif

I have to assume these moral restrictions don't include setting Grievous' organs on fire - with a blaster no less. And considering the very violent manner in which he was dispatched, I doubt Kenobi has any reservations with piercing cyborg lungs, heart or performing a decapitation. Just a few options that probably aren't on the table against a former Jedi comrade. And one who hasn't committed any particular crime.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-28-2018/mKkWsw.gif

There's a very specific reason why I italised the word "people", when referring to the types of adversary Kenobi will restrain himself against. The difficulties he has fighting Hett - creating a specific opening so he can disarm him - aren't present against robot. Which may go to explain why hett lasted as long as he did. Kenobi also has no reservations against Maul, possibly none against Savage either.



Yes, but unlike the Magnagurd, Hett had an environmental advantage, as well as the leisure of fighting someone who's trying to spare his life, while not reciprocating the same moralistic goodwill.



There may be a few in-universe reasons why this is, let's look at them before hand-waving Maganagaurds entirely. The first is that their programming doesn't respond well to unpredictability, and that Fisto and Maul wield styles characterised by that exact trait. The second reason is the possible improvement of Magnagaurds over time. Or that the ones guarding Grievous aboard the Invisible Hand are simply more "elite" than the one's facing Anakin in TCW. For one, they don't seem to get up after loosing their heads. From an out of universe prospective, if the argument is that Kenobi is jobbing against Grevious' bodyguards for plot reasons, he can certainly do the same facing Hett. Especially since we have an internal account of the battle, where it's clear that when Ben gets serious, the fight is over instantly.



That's one . The other part of the point is establishing how good Hett is before the power ups. Presuming he was already on Kenobi's level - but only a little bit worse - then the endeavours during his journey to becoming Darth Krayt could indeed put him ahead of Dooku... and by fair degree. However, I think that he's a Tier Seven against Kenobi. The experiences Krayt had after the fact may well have taken him into the tier-eight rubicon, but it still doesn't put him ahead of Tyranus. If beating a centuries worth of opponents - whom may not even be particularly great - was enough to put him ahead of Dooku, then I had better see you supporting Lord Scourge against The Count too. But for some reason I don't see that happening.



Well I have mentioned numerous times that I'm not familiar with Apocalypse. My basis for Krayt comes entirely from Legacy. So feel free to enlighten me.



.... No he wasn't.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-28-2018/3RrIif.gif



We he? When i looked back at the panels of the fight, I see Cade still standing after Krayt attempt to dominate him conventionally - through TK and lightning. He was taken down, yes, but probably because Krayt's used Force power Cade never expected to be on the receiving end of.



And he probably spent the previous years of his life on drugs and not doing much to improve his skills. The point is that he's a several generations diluted Skywalker, with much less training than Anakin. I don't give him special commendations for beating what, Taalon and Nhil? Who are ultimately just two skilled acolytes from a relatively unknown faction of sith.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Dooku:
cs_zoltan

Krayt:
Ursumeles (correct me if I'm wrong) Why did you assume this again?

Originally posted by Geistalt
Dooku:
Stigma
DarthAnt66
cs_zoltan
SunRazer
Shadilay (not counting)

Krayt:
ILS
Unbowed
Azronger
Rockydonovang
Ursumeles (correct me if I'm wrong)
I never took a side

Because you were pointing out that cs_zoltan wasn't standing in favor of Dooku. Retarded to use as a basis for an assumption; I know. I'm just trying to get people's opinions on the matter.

I take it you're in the middle ground (or supporting Dooku), then.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Dooku:

Shadilay (not counting)



Why am i not being counted?

Originally posted by Shadilaay
Why am i not being counted?
Reverse racism.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I still never said Dooku wins.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Why did you assume this again?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I never took a side

Originally posted by Shadilaay
Why am i not being counted?

lul

You truly are Geistalt of Gehenna if you can't even conduct a poll properly.

Originally posted by Shadilaay
I have to assume these moral restrictions don't include setting Grievous' organs on fire - with a blaster no less. And considering the very violent manner in which he was dispatched, I doubt Kenobi has any reservations with piercing cyborg lungs, heart or performing a decapitation. Just a few options that probably aren't on the table against a former Jedi comrade. And one who hasn't committed any particular crime.

There's a very specific reason why I italised the word "people", when referring to the types of adversary Kenobi will restrain himself against. The difficulties he has fighting Hett - creating a specific opening so he can disarm him - aren't present against robot. Which may go to explain why hett lasted as long as he did. Kenobi also has no reservations against Maul, possibly none against Savage either.

Yes, but unlike the Magnagurd, Hett had an environmental advantage, as well as the leisure of fighting someone who's trying to spare his life, while not reciprocating the same moralistic goodwill.These are fair points. So let's dispense with using Hett as a point of comparison, as you rightly point out later, this means of scaling alone may only raise Krayt to Kenobi's level by his prime, not beyond Dooku.
(Your points on MGs were fair too, cutting the quote for quickness)

My point with mentioning Krayt's large kill count was not to show a greater feat than those belonging to Dooku but to emphasise his growth.

Believe it or not, I'm not going to mention the Throne of Balance or Krayt's Force drain (although perhaps someone else can explain why the Throne of Balance is meaningful to mention).

The main thing that stood out to me was as follows: when Luke and Krayt went to Beyond Shadows to fight Abeloth, they fought as their pure Force essence. They both sustained immense damage from the fight, and it was stated they received comparable injuries. Yet, there was a marked difference in how they recovered from those injuries: Luke was willing to give up on living, and had to be given a pep talk by Mara Jade's ghost to fight to live... meanwhile, Krayt had already picked himself up off the floor and was leaving.

Now, obviously, Sith can feed on pain to an extent whereas Jedi suffer the full effects with no benefit. So we can't use this to say that Krayt is a real peer of Luke's. However, this is Grandmaster Luke we're talking about, one who is several orders of magnitude more powerful, with greater access to his huge Force reserves, the Dark Empire Luke among his other iterations (who have moved Dovin Bassal's and killed armies of Vong thousands strong).

At some level, you need to acknowledge that getting up from injuries which put Luke out of commission is extremely impressive, even if Krayt benefits from being a Sith.

--Apocalypse

Of course, it's noted that Abeloth "took something out of them" - if someone can firm whether this was a permanent weakening of Luke and Krayt that would be nice.

Krayt is by far at his weakest point when he has his Vong parasites, which diminished his connection to the Force, tore his body apart from the inside and drained his stamina rapidly.

This is Krayt once he comes back from the brink of death and is free of said parasites:
We can quantify the difference by comparing how close Krayt was to Cade in their first fight (very, with the parasites, but Krayt was better), versus how close they were in the 2nd fight, with both having powered up since (not as close).

For your own research you should take a look at all of these RTs, as you'll be able to see what the mooks of the Legacy era can do and then imagine how far above Krayt is from them.

One Sith:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/emperor-krayt-respect-thread-1684455/
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-wyyrlok-iii-respect-thread-1675001/
https://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-nihl-respect-thread-1667309/#5
https://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-talon-respect-thread-1673862/
https://www.comicvine.com/profile/thevivas/blog/darth-wredd-respect-thread/105631/
https://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-krayt-s-sith-troopers-overview-1673585/

Jedi/Imperial Knights:
https://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/cade-skywalker-respect-thread/97726/
https://www.comicvine.com/profile/i_like_swords/blog/antares-draco-respect-thread/104728/
https://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/shado-vao-respect-thread-1673571/
https://www.comicvine.com/profile/thevivas/blog/wolf-sazen-respect-thread/125081/

But the basic hierarchy is:

Reborn Krayt > Prime Cade ~ Infected Krayt > pre-prime Cade >> Nihl > Talon > Antares Draco/Shado Vao/Wolf/Stryfe etc etc >>> a dozen Sith at a time / or groups of Sith Troopers (who make regular Sith look puny) at a time.

They also have the run of the mill accolades regarding being the "best of their time" or in Talon and Nihl's case, being in the top 3/4 spots out of Krayt's entire order (and the position of Hand is merit-based and highly competitive).

As you seem to appreciate factors such as whether or not the Orders of the time are militaristic or not, Krayt's Order is extremely combat-oriented and the likes of Nihl are lightsaber-masters with decades of war experience under their belt, and Talon is a clear prodigy as she has caught up to Nihl after a short few years as a Hand.

They scale above other duelists who in turn can take on groups of extremely powerful Sith Troopers, who like I mentioned are the cream of the crop; Krayt chooses them based on their latent potential from birth and moulds them into the perfect weapons, and they have been seen decimating the ranks of Jedi and ragdolling other Sith. Shado Vao in particular held off many waves of these Sith while Cade dragged Talon up to Krayt's throne room, fought him, heard his monologue and then stabbed him (at which point the Troopers all went insane).

Yet, Cade has a record of stomping Talon and beat Nihl thoroughly well before his prime. Cade was even contending with Nihl at the start of the series, before he was re-trained by both the Jedi and Sith and got 50 issues worth of comics of experience under his belt.

Good point, I missed this, just assumed Krayt was dual-wielding like usual. Still, whether Cade was expecting it or not is kind of irrelevant as Dooku won't be either, and neither would willingly let Krayt touch their chest. Him usually fighting with two swords leads me to believe there isn't a world of difference between him using Dark Transfer and a second lightsaber, because as we see from the scans, he was parrying Cade with one hand anyway.

In any case, I'd be willing to submit that Krayt defeating Cade may only be comparable to Dooku's own feats, but if I had to choose one of them to win I'd side with Krayt.

I think you're selling all parties involved short here, and while there's obviously a difference between Cade and Anakin, Anakin has always given Dooku hell, whereas Cade is incapable of providing a similar challenge to Krayt.

And if we're going to discuss Force connection as a barometer of success with a lightsaber, look only to Krayt's comparisons to Luke, as well as Caedus due to the Throne of Balance.

I feel like Luke being more drained from the fight was more psychological than anything, and he did do more of the fighting.

Originally posted by Shadilaay
You truly are Geistalt of Gehenna if you can't even conduct a poll properly. You sure know an outdated thread for an account that was made 3 days ago.

Bane dies

Originally posted by carthage
Bane dies
LMAO

Darth Krayt is the Shao Kahn of Star Wars combined with Spartacus.

Dooku:
Stigma
DarthAnt66
SunRazer
Sirion_Of_Doom (Account Restricted)

Krayt:
Geistalt
ILS
Unbowed
Azronger

Giving it to whoever votes next in this thread. It'll probably be Kurk.

Actually, did Freedon Nadd mean to vote for Krayt? If so, that settles it.

Dooku

Krayt.