SUPER FIGHT II - Darth Vader (The Ellimist) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)

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DarthAnt66
https://i.imgur.com/8g2zFhj.png

CONDITIONS:

- All characters are in their Legends incarnations.

- Darth Vader is as of Episode VI: Return of the Jedi.

- Revan is as of The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan.

- Each character starts 30 meters away from each other.

- The battlefield is 300 meters by 300 meters of open terrain.

RULES:

- Each debater will have two full weeks to respond to the last debate post.

- Each debater can have no more than four responses with over 2,500 characters.

- The final post made cannot introduce wholly original or new arguments.

- The debate must be concluded by April 30th, 2018 at 12:00 AM ET.

- The winner of the debate will be decided by a panel of five judges*.

* NOTE: This rule is subject to change and may be completely removed.

DISCUSSION:

- Members are allowed to make comments but are prohibited from the following:

-- Members cannot discuss who they think wins in the fight within the thread.

-- Members cannot debate any arguments made by either debater within the thread.

-- Members cannot start their own debates or off-topic discussion within the thread.

- All posts that include trolling or insulting, or break the rules above, will be removed.

ILS
Looking forward to this.

Sirion_Of_Doom
azronger won

Azronger
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EQaGF0xpz-w

Rockydonovang
The part I'm looking most forward to is the inevitable quibble over the significance of Killer's facial expressions.

AncientPower
I'm most looking forward to how the entire forum massively backtracks when Ant makes his first post.

Rockydonovang
Nah, don't think the forum's in the mood to imitate you.

DarthAnt66
Reminder: "Members cannot start their own debates or off-topic discussion within the thread."

Rockydonovang
sorry ant.

Emperordmb
So Kbro, how's the weather today where you live?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Emperordmb
So Kbro, how's the weather today where you live?
"November rain" is my weather
"One mic" is my feather
"Blue Sky" is da leather
"Don't ask me why" bout da weather

The Ellimist
Opener finished, undergoing final review.

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

Stigma
Great job. thumb up

The Ellimist
Thanks smile

Azronger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgbC1_69QGc

TenebrousWay
Good post. smile

The Ellimist
Thanks smile

slayne
Originally posted by Stigma
Great job. thumb up
thumb up

Emperordmb
NB4 Ant be like "it's shit, you call that a post? I'll destroy it within the week" or some such shit

I haven't read it yet, just woke up.

Rockydonovang
great post. Question though, are force reserves independent of actualized power? Because early tcw Anakin certainly doesn't rival Yoda there.

DarthAnt66
Reminder: "Members cannot start their own debates or off-topic discussion within the thread."

The Ellimist
Anyone interested in futurist topics?

Stigma
I am actually, thanks for asking. Michio Kaku wrote a few interesting books on the subject.

Azronger
The wait intensifies

DarthAnt66

DarthAnt66

DarthAnt66

DarthAnt66

DarthAnt66

DarthAnt66

DarthAnt66

The Ellimist

Deronn_solo
Nice shit.

Ant effectively, lockdown most, if not all, of Elm' s arguments.

Obviously the latter can recover, but he'd have to toss aside a good chunk of his opening arguments.

AncientPower
He'd have to rethink his entire approach, actually. Not that I think Ell should subject himself to the level of arse rvpe that he'll get from Ant's next post if he replies.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by AncientPower
He'd have to rethink his entire approach, actually. Not that I think Ell should subject himself to the level of arse rvpe that he'll get from Ant's next post if he replies.

Yeah that part about SF Malak >>> Kun was especially convincing smile

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah that part about SF Malak >>> Kun was especially convincing smile

Reminder: "All posts that include trolling or insulting, or break the rules above, will be removed."

Please do not bait members with posts intentionally designed to upset them.

The Ellimist

DarthAnt66
The point of the reminder was to avoid the thread getting derailed / off-topic, which you are continually doing.

However, you are correct. I should have likewise addressed AncientPower's post.

Emperordmb
So guys, thoughts on Donald Trump's presidency so far?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Emperordmb
So guys, thoughts on Donald Trump's presidency so far?

To focus on the negative aspects, my biggest issues with it are:

1. Effect on international relations
2. Effect on North Korea, though it's unclear what the long-term results will be
3. Effect on immigration, particularly highly-skilled immigration which may have been adversely affected, whether by his actual policies or the perception of them
4. Effect on environmental policies (though he could perhaps counterbalance this by getting more nuclear energy on the table)

Emperordmb
Originally posted by The Ellimist
To focus on the negative aspects, my biggest issues with it are:

1. Effect on international relations
2. Effect on North Korea, though it's unclear what the long-term results will be
3. Effect on immigration, particularly highly-skilled immigration which may have been adversely affected, whether by his actual policies or the perception of them
4. Effect on environmental policies (though he could perhaps counterbalance this by getting more nuclear energy on the table)
hmmm... I see I see...

One thing that intrigues me is Trump's rhetoric, which is a double edged sword as far as I can tell.

On one hand it's often just bloviating about shit, sometimes even toxic and divisive... yet on the other hand it serves to defang the constant strategy of moral outrage and character attacks that are so prevalent in politics, especially surrounding certain discussions such as immigration, and not to mention Trump is memeable as ****.

DarthSkywalker0

Emperordmb
Well in much the same way that many of these arguments are likely to upset people from the opposing brigades, the way Donald Trump upsets the soyboys is truly satisfying.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQy4N3qW0AEqf3L.jpg

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well in much the same way that many of these arguments are likely to upset people from the opposing brigades, the way Donald Trump upsets the soyboys is truly satisfying.

Despite the apt comparison regarding moral outrage, the connection drawn is to loose to hold water. I reccomend you switch threads.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
I reccomend you switch threads.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUdxCj7IKCY&t=22s

Rockydonovang
Ant with a very strong rebuttal tbh. Let's see if Elim can recover.

Haschwalth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBnCcC_rEdk

Azronger
Intriguing post, Ant

The Ellimist
As I expected, Ant's post is solid on the surface but not necessarily that difficult to counter on further analysis.

Nephthys
Fantastic reply, Ant. Its seems that most of Elms arguments are dead in the water, so hopefully the discussion will move on to more direct comparisons between the two with respect to their abilities and showings.

Also amazing find with the Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi Audio Drama. Jedi Ulic suggests that normally he can tank turbolasers. His stock just shot up for me! thumb up

Stigma
Originally posted by Emperordmb
So guys, thoughts on Donald Trump's presidency so far?
His presidency will be germane to the outcome of Revan Vs. Vader. smile


But seriously: Ant did a good job. Vader still wins, though.

Emperordmb
YES STIGMA!!!!

Nice profile pic thumb up

Stigma
Originally posted by Emperordmb
YES STIGMA!!!!

Nice profile pic thumb up
Thanks thumb up Couldn't resist.

JKBart
nice art style
reminds me of something smile

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Stigma
Thanks thumb up Couldn't resist.
So you're saying you can't resist raping women when you see them on the street?

Stigma
Originally posted by JKBart
nice art style
reminds me of something smile
smile I know, I know. But this pic is just to perfect. I polished it a bit wink

Stigma
Originally posted by Emperordmb
So you're saying you can't resist raping women when you see them on the street?
No thats now what I said. I'm saying lobsters should be raped when we see them on the street. Research has been done.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Stigma
smile I know, I know. But this pic is just to perfect. I polished it a bit wink
So you're saying Hitler did nothing wrong and that we should organize our societies along the line of the lobsters?

Stigma
Originally posted by Emperordmb
So you're saying Hitler did nothing wrong and that we should organize our societies along the line of the lobsters?
No, that's not what I said. I'm saying that lobsters should organize their society along the line of humans. Research has been done.

ILS
I'm a clinical memetologist, Cathy. The multi-varied analyses have been done. Lobsters are in. SJWs are out.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/334/410/674.jpghttps://ih1.redbubble.net/image.500907865.1064/st%2Csmall%2C215x235-pad%2C210x230%2Cf8f8f8.lite-1u2.jpg

Stigma
^ thumb up x 1000

Haschwalth
Originally posted by Stigma
No, that's not what I said. I'm saying that lobsters should organize their society along the line of humans. Research has been done.
So you are saying all women are lobsters.

HeartThrob
That was a serious dressing down of Vader.

The Ellimist
OK, to articulate the "canon" policy DarthAnt66 and I seem to have agreed on privately:

For this debate the events and characters in Legends are treated as though they are real, and the events and characters in Canon are treated as an alternative universe. Canon events do not count as "real" unless if they also happen in Legends (but the Canon version is still not applicable). How we resolve different Legends sources is up for debate.

Barring DarthAnt66 disagreeing before my next post, this stands (not relevant to my next post, that deadline is just to prevent either of us from suddenly arguing for a different policy at the end or something).

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
- Each debater will have two full weeks to respond to the last debate post.

The deadline for the rebuttal is tomorrow, 2/21/2018, at 9:53 PM ET.

Nephthys
Aw, I was hoping he wouldn't notice. smile

The Ellimist
Clarification after discussion with DarthAnt66:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
- The final post made cannot introduce wholly original or new arguments.


Since Ant posts second, in my final post I still get to respond to Ant's third post. Ant, however, cannot produce new rebuttals to arguments I made in my third post in his final post, as he has an opportunity to do this in his third post.

The standard for "new argument" is either a new source or some concrete line of logical reasoning about a previous point that hadn't appeared earlier in the debate. Compositions or high-level framings of the discussion are OK (e.g. "I have multiple lines of scaling for this...Vader won on these points given..."wink, but anything that is not a product of organization or too low-level is not (e.g. "Vader is more powerful because this source suggests <new idea>"wink.

DarthAnt66
"I was not aware of such failure discussion."

For now, worry about meeting the deadline. We'll discuss the end later.

The Ellimist
We discussed the third post - fourth post dynamics in hangouts and your reply to my clarification was "obviously.". The clarification re: definition of a new argument seems pretty self-evident to me and mirrors what is done in competitive debate and other avenues.

Regardless, if you have concerns, reach out to me in private.

Nephthys
So if Ant finds a new source that directly contradicts you, or thinks up a "concrete line of reasoning" that proves you wrong he can't post it in his final post?

I assume because you wouldn't be able to respond to it.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Nephthys

I assume because you wouldn't be able to respond to it.

thumb up

I'm down for changes to this rule if we can close this loophole.

Nephthys
Why not let the judges decide if its ok? If it actually disproved your argument it seems silly not to allow it. Otherwise you could make any ridiculous claim and he wouldn't be able to respond.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Nephthys
Otherwise you could make any ridiculous claim and he wouldn't be able to respond.

I'm confused. He is able to respond, just not originating from the final post.

Nephthys
You mean outside of the thread? I guess.

S_W_LeGenD
Good effort from both contributors so far but DarthAnt66's rebuttal impressed me more. Credit where due.

When an argument begins with the caption "Can Revan even hurt Vader?" - it is expected to be grounded in logical extremes. Ill-advised strategy, IMO.

The Ellimist
A bunch of posts coming, please refrain from posting until I've clearly finished.

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist
There is something wrong with my laptop and I'm going to try to find another way to post this content. Please be patient and don't interrupt the flow of post-pasting until after I'm done, thanks.

The Ellimist
lol, well I'm on my iPhone and it looks like I'm going to have to copy stuff over from it. Great.

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist

The Ellimist
(continued from above)

New: Dooku Scaling

You didn't think Kar Vastor was the only way to put Vader above TPM Mace, was it?

Vader is clearly more powerful than Dooku:

Sedriss.

Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base.

-- Handbook 3: Dark Empire


You might wonder if this is only referring to disciples who were alive at a particular point in time, but it's actually referring to Sedriss's power after Vader's death, so if it references Vader it must also reference Dooku. We know this because Palpatine considers Sedriss to be "a moderate force sensitive, a capable errand boy, not the stuff of a true apprentice" (Jedi vs. Sith), which is hardly language that implies Sedriss at that point was on the level of, say, Jerec or even Mara Jade. So the quote has to be referring to Sedriss after Palpatine amps his power to the point where he can defeat Luke Skywalker.

Ergo, Vader > Dooku.

Minor Masterpiece

Here's what Sidious has to say about Vader:

Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal.

-- Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

Now, to obtain Vader, Sidious had to get rid of Dooku. He clearly doesn't seem to regret doing that, which he obviously would have if RotJ Vader were weaker Dooku. You could say that Sidious was just gloating in the sadism and irony of turning the Chosen One, but while that may have amused him, Palpatine is obviously more interested in obtaining a powerful apprentice, given that he does try to replace Vader with Galen and later Luke. Nor can you say that Vader had advantages other than power - Dooku was more loyal, more experienced, more politically skilled and connected, and had less emotional baggage. You might say that Dooku's old age was a limiting factor, but that's implausible - firstly, because Sidious may have had or soon had the ability to reverse aging (he suggests in the Plagueis novel that he can already do this with midichlorian manipulation - he likely can't do it to himself because the dark side is literally killing it), and even otherwise people in Star Wars live really, really long:

"Isn't medicine miraculous today?" Caedus asked. No one answered, of course. It was a rhetorical question. "A being is more likely to die of a meteor strike than of old age or disease."

So yeah, if Dooku > RotJ Vader, Sidious would have regretted getting rid of him. And given that Dooku is an equal match for TCW Windu:

Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.

- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

It is clear that:

Vader > Dooku > TPM Mace > Revan.





Summary




https://media0.giphy.com/media/3oKIPzLXQYb2Bn5PLG/giphy.gif

Let's summarize the state of things so far:

1. Vader can tank Starkiller's lightning, which directly powers a cannon to destroy a shielded imperial star destroyer in one hit, something that would require continent-vaping energies to perform.

2. Vader can tank and walk through RotJ Sidious's lightning, while Revan gets devastated and overwhelmed by novel Vitiate's.

3. Vader can tank the point blank suicide blast of a Oneness Galen Marek, who even before oneness was in a state such that he was doing better against Palpatine than anyone to that point ever had.

4. Vader is far more powerful than TCW Mace Windu, who is in turn far more powerful than Revan per concrete accolades.

5. Vader is more powerful than Count Dooku, who is more powerful than Revan per concrete accolades.

6. Vader scales from the ability to bring down imperial star destroyers, bust massive orbital superstructures larger than said star destroyers, one-shot thousands of droids through uncharged TK, and power several hundred meter long ships' engines, while Revan scales from...the ability to kill a few thousand beast riders.

7. Muur's apparent superiority to 19 BBY Vader is both, by your own admission, based on inaccurate musings and really the product of Muur's talisman being able to summon lots of monsters.

8. Multiple sources confirm that Sidious views Vader as a legitimate threat by RotJ.

9. Multiple sources confirm that Vader's sheer power rivals Yoda's by RotJ (though this does not necessarily mean he would defeat Yoda in a fight).

So to answer my question, no, Revan cannot hurt Vader. To do so he would either have to release an attack more powerful than Oneness Galen Marek who was more powerful than Yoda, unleash lightning beyond Palpatine's and beyond the defenses of a star destroyer's shields, or tank Vader's attacks and defeat him in a saber duel (which will be funny to see you argue).

So answer your question, Vader can hurt Revan by overwhelming him with star destroyer dropping TK, and by being more powerful than him through multiple lines of scaling.

Vader therefore has a clear superiority over Revan along every line of evidence, from feats to accolades to character opinions.

End.

|King Joker|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnavcUHC6zc&t=03s

Freedon Nadd
Darth Vader's power is surrounded by inconsistency, though. I don't know why you are still using Galen to gauge his power. Also, when Vader picked the emperor up he wasn't using Tutaminis.

Not only that, but Starkiller was more powerful in the Force shenenigansly than original Galen Marek.

Even Sidious used his full power on Windu and he couldn't ash or charred husk Windu. So, Sidious' lightning is also overrated(least he uses dark side nexuses like Kalakar Six)

I don't know why even Oneness events are gauged so much. Oneness isn't a godly boost, it's just a minor boost. Oneness isn't a certainty you will win.

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