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SSJB Goku, who can beat him, no gods

nobody but goku at the very end after the time skip

Nobody

Nobody including Goku after time skip.

EoGT Goku destroys him and Jiren.

Goku with 100 years of training would ***** smack ssb never mind the fact that he's immortal

Originally posted by TheBadguy
Goku with 100 years of training would ***** smack ssb never mind the fact that he's immortal

Oh ok. Zero feat end of GT Goku would destroy SSJB? Doubtful

Would love to see your proof on this.

This still comes down to where you put the multipliers/scaling in GT vs. the multipliers/scaling in DBS.

Some people scale GT higher; some people scale DBS higher. You'll never get an irrefutable consensus in that regard.

All of dbs vs gt is pure speculation

I personally think dbs is magnitudes higher but we know how dragonball works
Goku will always get exponentially stronger over time and after 100 years I can't see him being anything below GoD tier is especially not when gohan plays tag with piccolo for a hour and is something in the realm of blue

I was on the other side of this before that last thread but prime goku 100 years added on is just too convincing. If I had to guess how they'd write it I think they'd have him dominate most things

Lol... it took 30 plus yrs for Goku to reach Super Saiyan 3 level and that was an insect compared to God level. That's 30 yrs. 100 yrs of training the way he was doing in Z would still have him significantly below his red level because again, 30 yrs plus didn't even give him a fraction of God tier power. Beerus wasn't even using a percentage of his power and took SS3 Goku out with a touch. With that said, Goku within a 100 yrs would still get crushed by God tier and for the people that thinks 100 yrs would put him above God tier, that funny (30 yrs did crap). SSGB Goku punch a hole clean through GT Goku, with ease.

Heroes has SSJ4 and Blue at more or less even levels. Not canon, obviously, and in terms of feats there is no competition, but I figured I would throw that out there.

Ayep.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
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It's mostly GT's fault for some of this stuff being speculation to begin with, since they gave us nothing about EoGT Goku to really go off of, which as it is is just fan speculation/wank.

Whis specifically told Vegeta that he could have trained forever with "conventional" (compared to Gods and God ki, of course) methods but he still couldn't have reached the realm of SSG (BS like 17 being blue tier in the anime after ranging a park aside).

Originally posted by Galan007
This still comes down to where you put the multipliers/scaling in GT vs. the multipliers/scaling in DBS.

Some people scale GT higher; some people scale DBS higher. You'll never get an irrefutable consensus in that regard.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Heroes has SSJ4 and Blue at more or less even levels. Not canon, obviously, and in terms of feats there is no competition, but I figured I would throw that out there.

Eh.. Omega Shenron was supposed to threaten the universe, was he not? Including the world of the Kai's, outside the universe proper.

Blue's top feat is the universal wave, and the context made it very clear that the waves were growing in power as they spread out. That's not raw power alone, that's "anime physics" at work.

While two Gods of Destruction could potentially destroy the universe outright, Goku isn't a God of Destruction.

I'd take Omega Shenron destroying the universe by his mere existence over Goku and Beerus's stupid and nonsensical universal wave, which is a shared feat with a God of Destruction.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Whis specifically told Vegeta that he could have trained forever with "conventional" (compared to Gods and God ki, of course) methods but he still couldn't have reached the realm of SSG (BS like 17 being blue tier in the anime after ranging a park aside). Tbf, GT took a shit on everything we *thought* we knew about 'conventional' training(and subsequent powerups.) That's why scaling puts some of the GT multipliers in the tenS of thousandS, for example.

Also, Whis was pretty much full of shit when he said that. Gohan, #17, Freeza, Future Trunks, etc. have all reached God-tier+ power via conventional training in the anime... Aside from that, Whis has also made several comments about the Saiyans being far greater prodigies than he ever realized. Their abilities/prowess defy all sense of logic. /shrug

I think Frieza and Android 17 is self explanatory to be honest. Frieza has never trained in his entire life. Before even receiving training he was the most powerful being in the Universe. Training should boost him to unimaginable levels. Android 17, already had infinite power... the only thing he had to work on was his physical stats. Saiyans are just saiyans... their potential is limitless.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tbf, GT took a shit on everything we *thought* we knew about 'conventional' training(and subsequent powerups.) That's why scaling puts some of the GT multipliers in the tenS of thousandS, for example.

Also, Whis was pretty much full of shit when he said that. Gohan, #17, Freeza, Future Trunks, etc. have all reached God-tier+ power via conventional training in the anime... Aside from that, Whis has also made several comments about the Saiyans being far greater prodigies than he ever realized. Their abilities/prowess defy all sense of logic. /shrug

Well going at war against DBS and putting it on power-scaling is a suicide.
Goku in the span of 130 episodes got 3 brand new transformations (4 if you want to include stacking KK on top of Blue), of which just the first one (SSG) has the most massive multiplier in the history of DB.

Base Goku right now should be >>> anybody in Z, and then he still has 3 Ssj transformations, then he has God ki, then he can still turn into full SSG, then he has Blue (+ Mastered Blue and freakin' Hakai if we also consider the manga), then has Blue + KK up to KKx20, then he has UI Omen (which is miles beyond anything shown before) and, then again, he will have MUI (which is officially labeled as the strongest Son Goku in history).

The scaling is MASSIVE. Hell, just during the ToP alone Goku probably got dozens of times stronger than he was in the Zamasu arc.
DBS heavy hitters and top tiers (not even counting the Angels here, let alone the Grand Priest) are multi-universal in raw power.

GT simply cannot compare. For GT, you could maybe make a case for Ssj4 Gogeta being multi-galaxy level, but that's it.
Furthermore (and that's obvious), when GT was conceived there was no idea of God ki, making by default Goku (still relying on "standard" transformations) much, much weaker than he is now.

Regarding 17, Gohan and Trunks I agree, but, as I wrote in my previous post, this is simply BS and bad writing from Toei which is easily fixed by the manga. Indeed:

- 17 in the manga is shown to be below Ssj3 Goku (and he still is lucky AF, since it is much more than he deserves anyway)
- Ultimate Gohan is strong yes, but him being Blue tier is just pure anime filler, BS and incosistency (Goku went Blue even against Kuririn..)
- Future Trunks in the anime is simply the biggest asspull in the history of the whole franchise, his real level is shown in the manga, i.e. Ssj3 (not God ki) tier, with his mastered Ssj2 transformation.

Freeza, on the other hand, I believe it makes sense: he simply trained like a saiyan, with the difference that his potential is >>>>> that of any saiyan.
I see True Golden Freeza legitimately soloing GT, exactly as a serious, not PIS, BS Toei-free SSB Goku. IMHO, the evidence is just there, plenty.

I'm not comparing DBS to GT. I'm just saying that Whis was full of shit.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not comparing DBS to GT. I'm just saying that Whis was full of shit.

Well, to his defence he didn't know how strong you can get while ranging a park.

Originally posted by carver9
I think Frieza and Android 17 is self explanatory to be honest. Frieza has never trained in his entire life. Before even receiving training he was the most powerful being in the Universe. Training should boost him to unimaginable levels. Android 17, already had infinite power... the only thing he had to work on was his physical stats. Saiyans are just saiyans... their potential is limitless.

Was it even said Android #17 was training? Or is it assumed?

I mean, he was in the woods, and he's never had a "master" to train him (While #18 stuck with martial arts masters.)

Either way, you've gotta love that the Androids are human beings.

Android #17 is Earths best home grown hero.

Originally posted by cdtm
Was it even said Android #17 was training? Or is it assumed?

I mean, he was in the woods, and he's never had a "master" to train him (While #18 stuck with martial arts masters.) #17's 'training' consisted of thwarting human poachers on his home island... just imagine how powerful he could have become with legit training, lol.