Zod vs Count Nefaria

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Stoic
Both at their best.

Who would win?

JBL
Nefaria. The Avengers Steamrolled superman and would do the same to Zod. Look at what nefaria did to the avengers.

Zack M
Nefaria




Will KNEEL!

tkitna
Nefaria




Will KILL!

Zack M
HIMSELF



By trying to fight Zod!!

riv6672
Zod.
Nefaria was pussy. Poweful as hell, yeah, but he freaked every time an Avenger caused him pain, or when he couldnt just one shot them, or even just crumple Cap's shield.
Zod's a warrior, and would give no quarter, wearing Nefaria down mentally as well as physically.

Damborgson
Okay, sure. Makes sense.

riv6672
Thanks.

leonidas
Originally posted by riv6672
Zod.
Nefaria was pussy. Poweful as hell, yeah, but he freaked every time an Avenger caused him pain, or when he couldnt just one shot them, or even just crumple Cap's shield.
Zod's a warrior, and would give no quarter, wearing Nefaria down mentally as well as physically.

that wasn't him at all in his bigger more recent arc. he was pretty easily whooping down the avengers. at his best i'd take the count.

riv6672
To me he was at his best in his originsl arc.

leonidas
did you read the much more recent arc...?

Zack M
Didn't Moon Knight beat Nefaria, recently? lol

Damborgson
Originally posted by leonidas
did you read the much more recent arc...?

I didn't. Could you recap?

panthergod
Originally posted by JBL
Nefaria. The Avengers Steamrolled superman and would do the same to Zod. Look at what nefaria did to the avengers.

nonsense.

Superman was fighting a physically weaker hero and was npwhere near going for the wkill, which is what necessitates accessing his full power art that point.
Further, Nefaria NEVER fought a group as physically formidable as the one that beat down an already injured holding back Superman.

nice try though.

cdtm
Nefaria is overrated.

Who did he beat? A lot of heralds could tear up Iron Man, classic Wonder Man, Wasp.. Thor was holding his own, and he is known for holding back. And Vision KO'd him.

And in the second big event, Ionic Wonder Man and Atlus were out of the fight.

Zod should destroy.

-K-M-

riv6672
Originally posted by leonidas
did you read the much more recent arc...?
No i havent, but like i said, his original arc is where he was, imo, at his best. This was him as originally intended, before multiple writers got their hands on him, powered him up and down and sideways.
And, in that original arc, he was a pussy.

Power ups come and go, but cowadly bullies are cowardly bullies.
Zod would beat Nefaria, because he would scare Nefaria.
I'm confident of that opinion across the board.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by cdtm
Nefaria is overrated.

Who did he beat? A lot of heralds could tear up Iron Man, classic Wonder Man, Wasp.. Thor was holding his own, and he is known for holding back. And Vision KO'd him.

And in the second big event, Ionic Wonder Man and Atlus were out of the fight.

Zod should destroy.

Nefaria was compared to the Destroyer and palmed Mjolnir in a move that wasn't replicated for decades in his first appearance. That's beyond Zod's capabilities. He was completely oblivious to his potential but so would anyone if they just got above Top Tier power. If Thor wasn't in the picture, sure, you could compare him to say Gladiator or Zod or Hyperion but Thor was. The same shit happens to the Justice League even with scrubs like Orm. Comics bro.

I know there were Scrubs but these are still the Avengers and nothing worked. There was never any hope of beating him. They said it like 5 times. Everything flat out failed from #32-#34 from the Scarlet Witch's magic, to an Ionic energy disruption tool they built with Madame Masque, to the Vision phasing into Nefaria's body. Even with a kryptonian, that much brain power or opportunity to attack (He let them try everything they could) would have resulted in a win through some energy disruptor. They have ZERO on the JL power wise, but the Avenger's are great at team work and coming up with a good plan. He laughed off their attacks consistently and nothing hurt. With the way Busiek wrote the Avengers, that shit was impressive, and it was implied he was at a level that Thor couldn't beat.

Originally posted by riv6672
No i havent, but like i said, his original arc is where he was, imo, at his best. This was him as originally intended, before multiple writers got their hands on him, powered him up and down and sideways.
And, in that original arc, he was a pussy.

Power ups come and go, but cowadly bullies are cowardly bullies.
Zod would beat Nefaria, because he would scare Nefaria.
I'm confident of that opinion across the board.

Nefaria WAS a cowardly shit who can't stand up to Zod in a contest of mental strength, but, he was at his best. He was holding his body together by force of will. And even in the beginning, he was scared shit less of Thor, but took Thor's attacks who hits harder than Zod and has more power.

And this is Nefaria at his best, decades later. Maybe we're using a version of Zod I'm unfamiliar with. I'm assuming evil Zod who's working at efficient levels.

This would be a split if we couldn't use Thor as a measuring stick (True, he holds back, but let's not milk that as if we're Superman fans excusing showing) and forget that the Avengers use to be pretty damn good at solving problems and Nefaria was on that boundary where they could maybe, beat him, but it took a shit load of luck

panthergod
Yeah..

Zod beat Rebirth Hal.

That's FAR more impressive than anything Nefaria has ever done.

riv6672
Its cool, we just disagree in this.
Thank you for the great response!

JBL
Originally posted by panthergod
nonsense.

Superman was fighting a physically weaker hero and was npwhere near going for the wkill, which is what necessitates accessing his full power art that point.
Further, Nefaria NEVER fought a group as physically formidable as the one that beat down an already injured holding back Superman.

nice try though. A injured holding back superman????? Who told you that????? Lmao!!! If you believe that mental block crap, then I don't know what to tell you. How the hell does superman put mental blocks on himself and then cannot access his full power yet gets tired and beaten by threats that want to destroy everything???? That's stupid!!! That's like me locking my car door and throwing away the key while a bear is coming to maul me or getting a combination lock and then forget the combination to open my safe to face the 2 burglars that have bats. And the sad part is... I knew that bear and burglars were comming. Some protector of earth he is right??? Nope, you try again.

panthergod
Originally posted by JBL
A injured holding back superman????? Who told you that????? Lmao!!! If you believe that mental block crap, then I don't know what to tell you. How the hell does superman put mental blocks on himself and then cannot access his full power yet gets tired and beaten by threats that want to destroy everything???? That's stupid!!! That's like me locking my car door and throwing away the key while a bear is coming to maul me or getting a combination lock and then forget the combination to open my safe to face the 2 burglars that have bats. And the sad part is... I knew that bear and burglars were comming. Some protector of earth he is right??? Nope, you try again.

You seem to think that this concept is debatable.

It isn't.

Comics are comics. Deal with it. He also doesn't use FTL speed all the time either. He could have oneshotted Thor. Busiek himself later established that he never even knew the limits of his HV, and that he suppressed his stats for a year subconsciously due to his dynamic factor. He wasn't trying to kill a opponent he knows is weaker than him. Which at that point was the criteria for him going all out. See OWAW. So right there.. Yeah he held back. Period. I don't care that you aren't bright enough to grasp genre conventions and character traits established for decades. This is an ability he's had since 1961.

Oh and btw.. He won.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
That's like me locking my car door and throwing away the key while a bear is coming to maul me or getting a combination lock and then forget the combination to open my safe to face the 2 burglars that have bats. And the sad part is... I knew that bear and burglars were comming.


I can EASILY see you doing either of those. Both if you somehow survived the first.

leonidas
Originally posted by riv6672
No i havent, but like i said, his original arc is where he was, imo, at his best. This was him as originally intended, before multiple writers got their hands on him, powered him up and down and sideways.
And, in that original arc, he was a pussy.

and in a later arc he....wasn't and was easily crushing a huge avengers line-up. not sure how your definition represents him at his best then, when that original appearance simply was NOT him at his best. you're disregarding his gained experience, the fact that he got smarter and more confident. weird way to paint a picture of a character at their best. /shrug

cdtm
Originally posted by leonidas
and in a later arc he....wasn't and was easily crushing a huge avengers line-up. not sure how your definition represents him at his best then, when that original appearance simply was NOT him at his best. you're disregarding his gained experience, the fact that he got smarter and more confident. weird way to paint a picture of a character at their best. /shrug

And in an even LATER arc:

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/avengershoodmasque15.jpg

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/avengershoodmasque16.jpg


stick out tongue

CosmicComet
Henshaw would beat Nefaria.

Yet Zod owned him.

The speed blitz is still available too.

cdtm
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Henshaw would beat Nefaria.

Yet Zod owned him.

The speed blitz is still available too.

Zod sucker punched him.

It was a good shot, but CS's strength has never really been in the physical.

Imagine if he hand lasered Zod from behind, or unexpectedly from the front. Bet he wouldn't shake it off. (For what it's worth, Henshaw was also part of the team that took down Zod in that same issue, next to Eradicator and the Suicide Squad.)

riv6672
Originally posted by leonidas
and in a later arc he....wasn't and was easily crushing a huge avengers line-up. not sure how your definition represents him at his best then, when that original appearance simply was NOT him at his best. you're disregarding his gained experience, the fact that he got smarter and more confident. weird way to paint a picture of a character at their best. /shrug
I'm not saying he cant team wreck. I'm saying he doesnt handle it well when the tables turn.

JBL
Originally posted by panthergod
You seem to think that this concept is debatable.

It isn't.

Comics are comics. Deal with it. He also doesn't use FTL speed all the time either. He could have oneshotted Thor. Busiek himself later established that he never even knew the limits of his HV, and that he suppressed his stats for a year subconsciously due to his dynamic factor. He wasn't trying to kill a opponent he knows is weaker than him. Which at that point was the criteria for him going all out. See OWAW. So right there.. Yeah he held back. Period. I don't care that you aren't bright enough to grasp genre conventions and character traits established for decades. This is an ability he's had since 1961.

Oh and btw.. He won. False. None of what you say is true. Mongul Jr already explained what he taught superman in owaw. Superman suppresses his powers to keep from hurting or killing humans or far weaker opponents. Out of his on mouth when fighting black Adam. Or do mental blocks keep you from knowing that he had no such concernes when he was mad as hell and admitted he went all out against BA??? Why didn't he drop his mental blocks to win the arm wrestling match against CM? Why in Owaw when he needed to get stronger, he sun amped? It's an excuse in case he gets beaten right?? Then you can fall back on he didn't have access to his full power because he put locks on his powers and threw away the key even though his friends and humans are being killed around him right??? Don't think so.

carver9
Nef wins and since low showings is being posted, can someone post those scans of bullets affecting Zod?

cdtm
Originally posted by JBL
False. None of what you say is true. Mongul Jr already explained what he taught superman in owaw. Superman suppresses his powers to keep from hurting or killing humans or far weaker opponents. Out of his on mouth when fighting black Adam. Or do mental blocks keep you from knowing that he had no such concernes when he was mad as hell and admitted he went all out against BA??? Why didn't he drop his mental blocks to win the arm wrestling match against CM? Why in Owaw when he needed to get stronger, he sun amped? It's an excuse in case he gets beaten right?? Then you can fall back on he didn't have access to his full power because he put locks on his powers and threw away the key even though his friends and humans are being killed around him right??? Don't think so.

Against original post crisis Bizarro Superman, he claimed he was "trying" to hit him with everything he has... ..but was subconsciously pulling his punch's.

This was established by Byrne, and confirmed by several prominent writers over the years (Jurgen's, Casey, Busiek).

Bottom line, it takes very special circumstances for him to really "cut loose", even against someone who can take it.

The Mongul training and his mental blocks... ehh, I'm not sure I believe he really "broke" them. All out against probes is one thing. Against the living, that's something else.

Zod, otoh..

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
False. None of what you say is true. Mongul Jr already explained what he taught superman in owaw. Superman suppresses his powers to keep from hurting or killing humans or far weaker opponents. Out of his on mouth when fighting black Adam. Or do mental blocks keep you from knowing that he had no such concernes when he was mad as hell and admitted he went all out against BA??? Why didn't he drop his mental blocks to win the arm wrestling match against CM? Why in Owaw when he needed to get stronger, he sun amped? It's an excuse in case he gets beaten right?? Then you can fall back on he didn't have access to his full power because he put locks on his powers and threw away the key even though his friends and humans are being killed around him right??? Don't think so.

Then, for starters, explain why during the training with Mongul, Superman straight up said he felt his powers surge.

Then explain why he went from struggling with an Imperiex Probe to casually taking them out, and the writer intent was clear that the Probes were just as powerful as before but he's different now(which the writer corroborated in an interview, for what it's worth).

Then explain UP, UP AND AWAY where his powers made clear jumps in level.

I know you won't though.

leonidas
Originally posted by cdtm
And in an even LATER arc:

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/avengershoodmasque15.jpg

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/avengershoodmasque16.jpg


stick out tongue

why i otta.... chair

not saying zod can't win of course. saying cn has the feats to beat him. i know currently zod is nuts with his feats, but looking overall? this is really close. as was mentioned--not sure i see zod palming a po'd strike from thor with the hammer. could likely go either way imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by riv6672
I'm not saying he cant team wreck. I'm saying he doesnt handle it well when the tables turn.

and i'm saying he didn't have that liability later on when he became more confident in his abilities. THAT would be him at his best.

Stoic
At their best seems to have become Zod at his best and Nefaria at his worst. At Nefaria's worst, a top tier would be able to one shot him. At Zod"s worst, Superman is wrecking him and several other Kryptonians at the same time lol.

Zack M
Zod stalk is only rising. He just took down God of Will Hal. He wins

Facee
The Count took a hammer shot from Thor like nothing at his best. Could Zod? IDK?

Zack M
Originally posted by panthergod
Yeah..

Zod beat Rebirth Hal.

That's FAR more impressive than anything Nefaria has ever done.

With what the crazy things Hal has done in the past few years, I say that is accurate. However, we know Hal will win in the end. It just might take a few more Lanterns (John, Guy, etc...)

cdtm
Originally posted by leonidas
why i otta.... chair

not saying zod can't win of course. saying cn has the feats to beat him. i know currently zod is nuts with his feats, but looking overall? this is really close. as was mentioned--not sure i see zod palming a po'd strike from thor with the hammer. could likely go either way imo.

Big picture wise, Zod has always been kind of pathetic 1 vs 1.

Even back in the pre crisis era, Faora was literally slapping him aside like a red headed step child every time he tried to assert his authority. (Yeah, she had martial arts skill, but he still just took it like a chump.)

Post crisis, he gets strangled to death by his own soldier, Non, before the Green K can take him. About as sad a villian death as any.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Zack M
Zod stalk is only rising. He just took down God of Will Hal. He wins

Sounds like it's your stalk that's rising

Delta1938
Originally posted by cdtm
Post crisis, he gets strangled to death by his own soldier, Non, before the Green K can take him. About as sad a villian death as any.

You're thinking Pocketverse Zod, which was technically Pre-CRISIS Zod. The guy you mistook for Non, I think his name was Quex-Ul but I'm not positive.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sounds like it's your stalk that's rising

I see what you did there. laughing

JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
Then, for starters, explain why during the training with Mongul, Superman straight up said he felt his powers surge.

Then explain why he went from struggling with an Imperiex Probe to casually taking them out, and the writer intent was clear that the Probes were just as powerful as before but he's different now(which the writer corroborated in an interview, for what it's worth).

Then explain UP, UP AND AWAY where his powers made clear jumps in level.

I know you won't though. Mongul told superman that distraction robs you of victory. Superman was so worried about Lois and others that he needed to " get into kill mode" why do you think They made doomsday think those probes were superman?? Mongul taught superman how to fight. DD hates superman and would kill him so common sense should tell you that making him think those probes were superman was the way to go. Zod, WW and her mother Will kill you, they didn't share supermans soft heart. Now you explain to me this... Why couldn't superman defeat CM in arm wrestling? Or that Mon-el is more powerful than superman? Why didn't he drop his mental blocks and help flash against Zoom? I can show you every hero in comics doing the not affecting something, then destroying it. That must mean EVERY character in comics have mental blocks???

leonidas
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sounds like it's your stalk that's rising

heh i get it. thumb up

Mindset
Originally posted by cdtm
And in an even LATER arc:

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/avengershoodmasque15.jpg

https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/avengershoodmasque16.jpg


stick out tongue Wolverine would kill Zod.

Zack M
Nefaria definitely has the lowest of the lows. Shame.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
Then, for starters, explain why during the training with Mongul, Superman straight up said he felt his powers surge.

Then explain why he went from struggling with an Imperiex Probe to casually taking them out, and the writer intent was clear that the Probes were just as powerful as before but he's different now(which the writer corroborated in an interview, for what it's worth).

Then explain UP, UP AND AWAY where his powers made clear jumps in level.

I know you won't though. Mongul told superman that distraction robs you of victory. Superman was so worried about Lois and others that he needed to " get into kill mode" why do you think They made doomsday think those probes were superman?? Mongul taught superman how to fight. DD hates superman and would kill him so common sense should tell you that making him think those probes were superman was the way to go. Zod, WW and her mother Will kill you, they didn't share supermans soft heart. Now you explain to me this... Why couldn't superman defeat CM in arm wrestling? Or that Mon-el is more powerful than superman? Why didn't he drop his mental blocks and help flash against Zoom? I can show you every hero in comics doing the not affecting something, then destroying it. That must mean EVERY character in comics have mental blocks???

That's a long winded and poorly written way to avoid answering my question. Concessions accepted, kid.

riv6672
Originally posted by leonidas
and i'm saying he didn't have that liability later on when he became more confident in his abilities. THAT would be him at his best.
Agree to disagree, like i said before. thumb up
Looks like the thread's getting into shit talk territory going by what i'm seeing from others, so i'm switching to just reading i think.

JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
That's a long winded and poorly written way to avoid answering my question. Concessions accepted, kid. As I thought. Nothing.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
As I thought. Nothing.

laughing That's why you only bothered to red herring one of my examples and couldn't even do that to the rest.

If you're going to lie and whatnot, at least try to be clever and witty. I know that's asking too much from you though.

JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
laughing That's why you only bothered to red herring one of my examples and couldn't even do that to the rest.

If you're going to lie and whatnot, at least try to be clever and witty. I know that's asking too much from you though. I taught you what LITTLE you know about PERSONAL COMBAT superman.... Remember mongul telling superman that and more??? Nice try though.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
I taught you what LITTLE you know about PERSONAL COMBAT superman.... Remember mongul telling superman that and more??? Nice try though.

Superman said his powers surged. Bottom left panel.

"I could feel it in me, my powers surging."

https://tinyurl.com/y97r527u

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/surge

to rise suddenly to an excessive or abnormal value "the stock market surged to a record high"

Explain if it's he ONLY holds back, why he felt his powers surging.

Then get around to responding to my other points. And actually what I said, not your fantasy.

JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
laughing That's why you only bothered to red herring one of my examples and couldn't even do that to the rest.

If you're going to lie and whatnot, at least try to be clever and witty. I know that's asking too much from you though. By the way, since doomsday, Zod, WW and her mother were beating probes, does that mean that superman had to drop mental blocks to get on their level of power?? I mean going by what you claim, a "regular superman" is less powerful than the ones named?? No.. mongul taught him how to fight like hell. Get it.. the others didn't need to be taught, they were doing just fine. Myth busted. Goodnight.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
By the way, since doomsday, Zod, WW and her mother were beating probes, does that mean that superman had to drop mental blocks to get on their level of power?? I mean going by what you claim, a "regular superman" is less powerful than the ones named?? No.. mongul taught him how to fight like hell. Get it.. the others didn't need to be taught, they were doing just fine. Myth busted. Goodnight.

Another red herring. And a pathetic one too(since even ignoring context, only Doomsday did what Superman did). I'd ask if you're ever going answer my questions, but we both know you won't and pretend you won.

Stoic
I think that it would be ridiculous to think that Zod would easily defeat anyone capable of beating up on the Avengers team that Nefaria was beating on. If he won, I think he'd be worn out. On the other hand, I'm not sure that Zod could take that team. I mean if we were to look at that teams feats not to mention Thors feats alone.

JBL
Originally posted by Delta1938
Another red herring. And a pathetic one too(since even ignoring context, only Doomsday did what Superman did). I'd ask if you're ever going answer my questions, but we both know you won't and pretend you won. It's called a pep talk get it. Pump up the troops before battle!!! Mongul don't know what a mental blocks is.If superman can't access his powers, how the hell can mongul? Try again.

Delta1938
Originally posted by JBL
It's called a pep talk get it. Pump up the troops before battle!!! Mongul don't know what a mental blocks is.

So you're focused on straw grasping just one of the examples I gave. Concessions accepted.

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