Darth Maul vs. Exar Kun

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



The Ellimist
Has ILS won?

1. Force
2. Sabers
3. All-out, 15 meters starting distance

The Merchant
Maul all

Freedon Nadd
Exar Kun

AncientPower
Exar Kun clean sweeps.

Rockydonovang
Imma go Kun coz Ambria scaling is lit.

I could be persuaded off course.

The Ellimist
Ambria scaling? You mean Thon?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ambria scaling? You mean Thon?
Yeah, was ambria not the lake?

AncientPower
Thon trapped the energies of Ambria into Lake Natth, he was exhausted as he did it too.

Rockydonovang
ah, i see.

ILS
That Ambria scaling where Thon spent years-decades cleaning it up, yeah.

He's planetary... from a certain point of view.

I'm not opposed to Kun winning, and had him over Maul for a long time, but let's see if his old arguments stand up to scrutiny; I'll support Maul. The only rules of debate are that you are not allowed to lie, use double standards or replace arguments with ad hominem. Should be easy for most people. smile

Deronn_solo
ILS, i'm interested in your current ranking - where do you rank the ancients at this point?

AncientPower
I, Jedi pretty much one-shots this argument, but let's not spoil Ant's fun.

The Ellimist
lol if you think I, Jedi proves anything.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by ILS
That Ambria scaling where Thon spent years-decades cleaning it up, yeah.

Oh...

Virtually every debater in this forum engages in ad hominem...

ILS
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
ILS, i'm interested in your current ranking - where do you rank the ancients at this point? I don't deny their immense power and proficiency in sorcery, and like with Haazen's protective gauntlet and Kun's blasts they have some great weapons. They also have some great warriors among their ranks like Kun, Ulic, Ragnos, Tulak etc.

I just give everyone a fair shake before declaring a winner. I would say I have Kun in that upper-echelon area of Sith, but in the 2nd tier so to speak. There's a wide berth between the Plagueis/Sidious types who are so powerful they can speedblitz even the most powerful Sith (which is an even bigger power disparity than ragdolling), then you have your Kuns, Krayts, Caedus', Sidious' apprentices, even Bane and Zannah could make their way into this category, but as you can see, it is quite a range.

I would say the ancients outside of Kun and perhaps Ulic are below the threshold I gave above. More comparable to Malgus and the SWTOR protags perhaps.

Freedon Nadd
Sheevites turn Star Wars into Dragon Ball Z.

Azronger
Originally posted by ILS
I'm not opposed to Kun winning, and had him over Maul for a long time, but let's see if his old arguments stand up to scrutiny; I'll support Maul. The only rules of debate are that you are not allowed to lie, use double standards or replace arguments with ad hominem. Should be easy for most people. smile

Alright. What's Maul's main way to victory?

carthage
Kun oneshots

Ursumeles
Maul ragdolls, probably.

DarthAnt66
Throw in Vader and Kun still wins. smile

HeartThrob
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Throw in Vader and Kun still wins. smile

Interesting Premise.

I disagree though. But Kun can certainly defeat either of them. Vader looses upon re-evaluting his position to Galen. Especially upon the game feats getting pigeon-holed in the alternate-continuity category. The 80% of Sidious claim gets dismissed thanks to lore being only canon or Legends, with G-canon no longer being a factual concept. The fightsaber article also addresses Kenobi's skill having declined by ANH. Taking into consideration that fightsaber was written before the release of ROTS (it's referring to ATOC obi wan). ROTJ Luke, by account of his training and potential should be below ATOC Anakin etc. For a direct feats comparison, there actually is a very old comic of Vader fleeing from a crowd of people the size that Kun collectively stunned in the senate. And of course, Kun whopped the Mace Windu of his time (who yes, is not literally as powerful as Mace) while keeping them there. That does honestly seem beyond Vader.

As for Maul, he gets collective L's for running from pirates and loosing to padawans.

LordOfTheLight
It's perfectly possible to make an argument for Maul winning.

HeartThrob
Never said there wasn't. But it's much easier to the same for Exar.

but feel free to try your luck LOTL.

Zenwolf
Why is it easier?

ILS
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Why is it easier? Ziggy makes heavy use of rhetoric to make nuanced, thought provoking arguments that take a long time to deconstruct. Thus you tend to lose more than you gain by debating against him, unless you are incredibly diligent.

And I presume he'll use some classic anti-Maul, pro-Kun rhetoric to spin a specific narrative, and he thinks it's harder to accomplish the same narrative for Maul.

HeartThrob
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Why is it easier?

Because when I look at the situations that Maul and Exar have been in I struggle to see Maul posing the level of threat towards his enemies that Exar does. I also struggle to see Exar not mopping the floor with the types of people Maul has trouble against, even as a spirit. Let's just take the senate feat for example, Kun stunned what looks to be close to 100,000 people at once while fighting (and beating) the head weapon master of the faction. Vodo might not have had the screen time to display easily cross-refferencible feats. But the power is implied. "The Mace windu" of a much more fighting centric-era that has the same infrastructure for finding force sensitives within republic space without the same restrictions. You simply can't be that high up in the TOTJ era without being on the "tier 8" enlightened group. Let's compare that to Maul running away from a small group of pirates. There's also the shattering of beskarr with his lightsaber. that doesn't seem to be replicated anywhere else. And yes, while i'm impressed with Maul's feats in lock-down it didn't help him curb-stomp Qui Gon Jinn, a jedi who ins't powerful enough to overcome his old age, and actually has to tailor his own fighting style to his aid shortcomings rather than just amping himself past them.

ILS
My point exactly. Nothing to lose, everything to gain, definitely counter-able but requires considerable manpower nobody sane would want to dedicate. But let's make some observations anyway.

Kun stunned 100,000 muggles, but no Jedi. So this power clearly isn't useful against powerful Force users.

Vodo was the Mace Windu of his era in terms of his rank within the Order, no direct comparison was made between their power, and in terms of accolades and feats, Windu massacres Vodo.

Maul ran away from pirates in canon, whereas in legends he solo'd the collective forces of the Black Sun, the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy, while they were locked up in their highest security fortress with all of their armies and bodyguards, fully expecting Maul's arrival - a bit beyond a small group of pirates.

Kun shattered Beskar with the aid of the ambient energies of Nadd's tomb and Nadd's spirit helping him, as the comic heavily implies.

Qui-Gon "not overcoming his old age" isn't a criticism that is really pertinent to the argument you're making, he pretty much stands on his own as far as comparisons to power go. There's no logical basis for lowering Maul's standing based on his fight with Jinn, rather than simply amplifying Jinn's standing for how he did against Maul.

I'm sad to say, I doubt continued responses will be worth the effort, due to Zig's sophistry.

Zenwolf
I'm gonna add a bit to the beskar thing, Kun destroying it is great...however it's not something that's really unique. He cut a motionless slab that wasn't fighting back.

Beskar is only resistant to lightsaber blows, it can withstand hits sure, but eventually...like Cortosis, like Phrik, it can be cut through. A giant slab of it won't fight back, so one can just hack away at it and eventually it will be cut as Kun shown, Beskar eventually was punched through by laser cannons too, so it does have its limits, it's not just gonna stand there and take hits indefinitely.

The thing with pirates, yeah...that's Canon Maul, Legends Maul went through the Black Sun who are far superior to lowly pirates.

LordOfTheLight
Kun stunned "select members" of the senate, didn't he?

Azronger
Savage Opress literally shattered a beskar door with TK, and Maul is way more powerful. Kun's feat at Nadd's tomb during which he was nexus-amped and had the spirit of Nadd helping him as the text implies has nothing on that.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Azronger
Savage Opress literally shattered a beskar door with TK, and Maul is way more powerful.
??

Azronger
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/i_like_swords/blog/the-power-of-darth-maul/133231/

AncientPower
>Jedi Kun smashes a man-sized hole through a multi-meter thick wall of Beskar.
>Kun's power literally multiplies twice over after this.
>Nigh-prime Opress smashes a door of beskar with TK.

So Jedi Kun >> near-prime Opress is what I'm getting here. laughing out loud

Haschwalth
Exar, easily.

DarthAnt66
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/6248342-beskar.gif

Except the iron (assuming the iron is the grey) is still fully intact. What he destroys is visually just glass.

HeartThrob
Originally posted by ILS
My point exactly. Nothing to lose, everything to gain

You appear to have made contradiction.

Originally posted by ILS
Thus you tend to lose more than you gain by debating against him,



I see that we're using TPM maul as the favoured iteration. And also a preference for Legends over canon. Bare in mind this is your methodology, as canon is usually more valid - stuff that actually happened in the lore, as oppose to Legends - stuff that might have happened. Regarding the black sun "armies" guarding the fort, Maul doesn't seem to face any more than thirty of these "muggles" at a time. And these are groups often consisting of people who run towards him with blasters.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-09-2018/Fd3udP.gif

Although this might not even contradict the notion that if enough people shoot at Maul while maintaining some reasonable distance, he'll be forced to flee. Kun of course would paralyse these groups 1000 times over. That makes him a legitimate "army" buster. And if he can dismantle people like Vodo while maintaining such abilties with a massive area of effect, it looks better than Maul fighting vastly smaller groups of muggles, getting tagged by them and then having trouble against a random night sister afterwards.



I've already addressed this straw-man.

Originally posted by HeartThrob
Interesting Premise.
And of course, Kun whopped the Mace Windu of his time (who yes, is not literally as powerful as Mace)

I don't think Vodo is = Mace, just like I don't think Odan urr is = Yoda. That's why I theorise them to be on the tier 8 level as oppose to tier 9. The idea is not to disregard characters like this because of their lack of exposure. Their power is implied by their standing in the order, and this is an order that does have several advantages when recruiting force sensitives compared to the Modern era, and actually has a wider sample of Jedi. It also helps that Vodo is a dedicated weapon master, and has been for 100's of years.



The ambient energies of Nadd's spirit and his tomb. Lol, one of these entities might be helping him along. If it's the "energies of the tomb", we'll given that Kun is still a Jedi at this point and yet to turn to the dark side (force lsd, or a cheat to reach a higher level), we can probably say he's past the point where the Tomb amps his abilties as a Jedi beyond that of his final iteration as dark lord of the sith. This is especially true considering that Kun becomes the "darkest power in the galaxy" according to the same comic. Putting him above the energies of a tomb and probably serval other dark side organisations and worlds mentioned in the same comic.

If it's Nadd who's helping him. Then there's two possibilities, either Nadd is unlocking some of Kun's own potential, which would happen when he turns to the dark side anyway. Or Nadd is giving him some of his own power, which is irrevant seen as Kun one shots him later, while still before his prime.



If he can not maintain the same super-human levels of acrobatics as he did in his youth, then it implies that a large part of his fighting prowess is reliant on his own human physicality, which does indeed cheapen Maul. If someone like that presents a reasonable challenge to Maul, then the odds of finding people in others era's (particularly ones with more duelists) who can do the same is very very likely.

The Ellimist
I can buy that Exar's sorcery and superior esoteric abilities make him a better army buster / more cosmically powerful than Maul, but that doesn't mean that he would win in a 1 v 1 duel given that Maul was trained along a very different set of priorities.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/6248342-beskar.gif

Except the iron (assuming the iron is the grey) is still fully intact. What he destroys is visually just glass.

That's Canon; not Legends. Invalid.

Also, the glass is transparent beskar. Mentioned in the novel and referenced in sourcebooks. It's a thing.

DarthAnt66
You link to ILS' blog which has it lmfao

Source me on transparent beskar being a thing despite functioning as glass

ILS
Originally posted by HeartThrob
You appear to have made contradiction. Forgive me for not being clear - you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, the reverse is true for anyone debating you.
Careful with the game you're playing here, hombre. I'm using legends because Exar Kun is a purely legends characters. If you want to compare canon - the reality of Star Wars - to the legends Exar Kun's entire character is based in, you are pitting rumours and myths against reality, and guess which one turns out better for Maul?

Indeed. Let's talk about that. So your claim is that canon should take more precedent over Legends, seeing as canon actually happened, and legends is often marred with hyperbole and embellishment. What this now means is that all of Kun's accomplishments are subject to a metaphorical scalpel, due to their dubious veracity, whereas I can draw upon any of Maul's canon feats and accolades and quite happily state that they are true.

So what follows from this, then, is me posting a bunch of compelling evidence which proves that Maul is "one of the deadliest" and "most highly trained Sith in the history of the Order," that he was "trained in Sidious' likeness" "in all types of Sith ways," so that one day he could have "the baton passed to him" and "carry on the Sith tradition proudly."

I would then cite Maul's very real, very impressive feats, such as him dragging a massive shuttle off of a cliff while limping with an amputated leg, carrying his brother and fending off blaster fire, meaning he is far from a peak level of focus when performing this feat. Or compelling evidence to suggest he is in "Vader's realm," with Vader being someone who in canon has a whole host of extremely impressive power feats.

None of this, and more, being marred by the criticism that it could just be an embellishment of reality. And if you want to discount the words of Dave Filoni and Sam Witwer, two authorities directly intertwined with Maul's revival in the new canon, then you can just kindly stop bringing up Gillard and his tiering system. Unless you want to commit and egregious double standard, that is.

Moreover, in canon, it has been said by Filoni and Lucas that concepts such as Sith spirits are absolutely impossible, and shouldn't occur in the "true" Star Wars universe, which is the reason they didn't bring Revan and Bane into TCW briefly as spirits to consult with The Son. And we have many quotes stating that anything taking place outside of the canon universe can easily be interpreted as an embellishment of fact, so that leaves the question, just how powerful would the not-currently-existing Exar Kun appear if he was written into TCW? Likely nowhere near as powerful as you claim he is, with your myths and rumours.

Not that Kun has ever done anything even closely resembling taking on the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy, in their primary fortress, with all of their combined military assets dedicated to protecting them from an attack from Maul, which, btw, they were prepared for..... how about instead of just taking one still image of a conflict that raged over an entire comic issue, we take a look at the full thing, yes? Because the idea that armies of soldiers armed with blasters weren't using those blasters is quite obviously ludicrous.

https://imgur.com/a/azjGj

As you can see, they are using blasters, they are simply failing to hit anything but air. Maul wastes all of them, and continues to do so throughout the comic until he has killed all of Alexi Garyn's primary bodyguards, and then the man himself.



Were that the case, how do you expect Maul was able to kill not only the individual "armies" commanded by individual Black Sun vigos, but the collective armies of the several remaining Vigos Maul had not yet wasted, all gathered into one "nigh-unbreachable fortress" waiting for him? Indeed, in that fortress they are "better protected than anywhere else in the galaxy." All of the pertinent quotes can be found in the link below:

https://www.writeurl.com/text/8yguntksxwjeqstvahst/h93y3bkbpk3gc12yoelp

Only in the most superficial sense. Yes, he can use sorcery to stun muggles with an incredibly low resistance to these kinds of attacks, and Maul doesn't employ sorcery, therefore Kun is better at defeating muggles. That alone doesn't prove superiority any more than any other false equivalency you could attempt to draw between the two.

Proof Kun had to "maintain" the power? He cast a spell on them and they were stunned, it's said nowhere he needs to maintain it. Much like how Daegen Lok and Darth Zannah were able to drive Force sensitives mad, and experience extremely realistic illusions, despite leaving the battlefield entirely. And for the record, you're going to need to elaborate on why anyone should care that it was someone "like Vodo" Kun was fighting.

Your theory is based on what, exactly? And even if they are on tier 8, which I see no evidence for, that doesn't change the fact that there can be enormous wiggle room within a given tier.

Which is unfortunately said nowhere, and sadly, I doubt you'd let me away with making such a fallacious appeal to authority/rank, so I'm gonna have to reciprocate. Real feats and accolades please.

Which has little basis on the capabilities of individuals who are essentially anomalies not only in their own time period, but throughout all of history.

And Qui-Gon is one of the most skilled pure swordmasters the order has ever produced in 25,000 years. Anoon Bondara was also a "weapons master," who was well regarded in the Order as a master swordsman, some going as far as to say his skill being unequalled, and yet he was both humbled by Qui-Gon Jinn in sparring and absolutely obliterated by Darth Maul despite falling into a defensive shell. So unless you have something better for Vodo, who Kun fought over the course of multiple comic pages filled with extensive dialogue, I'm really struggling to see your point.

ILS

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by AncientPower
An i]ampedJedi Kun smashes a man-sized hole through a multi-meter thick wall of
Without Nadd's spirit, Kun barely did anything with his hit.

Rockydonovang
Kun entranced the people in the senate with a spell he performed beforehand...

ILS
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Without Nadd's spirit, Kun barely did anything with his hit. Indeed. Ziggy's argument seems to be that Kun absorbed the full power of Nadd's spirit and a nexus amp into his own power upon reaching his prime, simply because he killed Nadd later on.

You don't need to be more than twice as powerful as someone to kill them, so it could well be that in that select moment, Kun was striking harder than he ever had. And as Zenwolf said, walls don't hit back, it's unclear how long it took Kun to break through.

DarthAnt66
It is stated Kun absorbed Nadd's full knowledge upon death, thereby growing "super-powerful," so that's entirely possible.

ILS
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/6248342-beskar.gif

Except the iron (assuming the iron is the grey) is still fully intact. What he destroys is visually just glass.

No, the grey brackets are not the door, funnily enough; the glass door you open and then walk through is the door. Beskar can and has been built in the form of transparisteel glass, and given that these doors were built for a prison, I'm presuming structural integrity was kept in mind during their construction.

So yeah, Savage Opress casually shatters Beskar, whereas Kun required excessive amplification to do the same. If Kun could have used TK to carry out his feat, I'm sure he would have. Granted the Beskar he had to destroy was thicker than in Savage's feat.

Either way it's not much of an argument for Kun.

ILS
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It is stated Kun absorbed Nadd's full knowledge upon death, thereby growing "super-powerful," so that's entirely possible. That's like saying every single Banite Sith grew twice as powerful upon learning all of their master's secrets, starting with Zannah, which frankly is a stance I have no issues with you committing to.

Nephthys
Kun also adjusts his lightsaber to its highest intensity, it wasn't on max power beforehand.

http://i59.servimg.com/u/f59/18/88/65/60/photo-11.jpg

Although it says that Kun "senses a power moving around him.... a power that wants to help him", it isn't clear that Kun actually got any help from Nadd for this feat.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ILS
No, the grey brackets are not the door, funnily enough; the glass door you open and then walk through is the door. Beskar can and has been built in the form of transparisteel glass, and given that these doors were built for a prison, I'm presuming structural integrity was kept in mind during their construction.

So yeah, Savage Opress casually shatters Beskar, whereas Kun required excessive amplification to do the same. If Kun could have used TK to carry out his feat, I'm sure he would have. Granted the Beskar he had to destroy was thicker than in Savage's feat.

Either way it's not much of an argument for Kun.

I asked for sources on it being built in transparent glass since I didn't believe you.

And, *again*, it separates like glass and the iron supporters (oh, beskar) are still in place when Savage breaks the room.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ILS
That's like saying every single Banite Sith grew twice as powerful upon learning all of their master's secrets, starting with Zannah, which frankly is a stance I have no issues with you committing to.
I never said Kun grew "twice as powerful." messed

AncientPower
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Without Nadd's spirit, Kun barely did anything with his hit.

What are you talking about? He turns his lightsaber up to normal settings and then smashes the wall in. Nadd amping him at all is mere speculation.

ILS
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I asked for sources on it being built in transparent glass since I didn't believe you.

And, *again*, it separates like glass and the iron supporters (oh, beskar) are still in place when Savage breaks the room. It's a factual statement that the door is the glass, and the door is made of Mandalorian Iron, therefore, the glass is made of Mandalorian Iron. That he didn't destroy the supports doesn't detract from anything I said.Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I never said Kun grew "twice as powerful." messed Yes you did. I said:
Originally posted by ILS
Indeed. Ziggy's argument seems to be that Kun absorbed the full power of Nadd's spirit and a nexus amp into his own power upon reaching his prime, simply because he killed Nadd later on.And you replied:Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It is stated Kun absorbed Nadd's full knowledge upon death, thereby growing "super-powerful," so that's entirely possible.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by ILS
It's a factual statement that the door is the glass, and the door is made of Mandalorian Iron, therefore, the glass is made of Mandalorian Iron. That he didn't destroy the supports doesn't detract from anything I said. Yes you did. I said:
And you replied:
Give me a quote stating beskar can be put into glass that looks like and functions as glass but still remains the properties of ultra-mandalorian armor. Otherwise the beskar is just the frames, which it blatantly is anyway.

Unless you want to argue Savage can only break 1 inch thick shit-glass-beskar and can't break quality beskar.

---

I agreed Kun might have consumed Nadd's power, not that he grew double in power.

AncientPower
If a door is made of wood and has a glass window, you still call it a wooden door.

ILS
- From Strategic Resources of the Galaxy, by Pilas Manaitis
- Taken from 501st

Credit to zenwolf.

So your arguments that 1. the glass door made of Mandalorian Iron isn't made of Mandalorian Iron, and that 2. It's shit-tier, when only Mandalorians know how to maximise it's properties, which they would have done when constructing a prison cell (opposed to the Jedi, who no doubt received no help from the Mandalorians in sealing Nadd's tomb), are both utterly retarded.

The argument that Kun absorbed all of Nadd's power into his own is pretty unfounded.

ILS
If a prison door designed for full structural integrity is entirely made out of glass, and that glass is made of Mandalorian Iron which can be moulded into any form, I wonder what it's made out of. Really tough one to figure out that. Perhaps the brilliant minds in this thread can give us further clarity.

DarthAnt66
Great, you got a quote. You should have just done that in the first place. thumb up

Now explain in a semi-convincing way why the beskar iron supports were unaffected by Savage and we'll be scorched.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
No, the grey brackets are not the door, funnily enough; the glass door you open and then walk through is the door. Beskar can and has been built in the form of transparisteel glass, and given that these doors were built for a prison, I'm presuming structural integrity was kept in mind during their construction.

So yeah, Savage Opress casually shatters Beskar, whereas Kun required excessive amplification to do the same. If Kun could have used TK to carry out his feat, I'm sure he would have. Granted the Beskar he had to destroy was thicker than in Savage's feat.

Either way it's not much of an argument for Kun.

It seems like the cells and the feat are both completely different in the book than they are in the cartoon. In the book he just rips it off its hinges. I'd be interested to know if theres any indication the cells are still transparent in the book, like if Maul can still have his face to face conversation with Sabine in it.

Also it seems like an invalid comparison, since Kun smashes it with a lightsaber as opposed to Savage using the Force. Savage also doesn't do it "casually", he needs effort to do it and its thin glass as opposed to a thick wall.

ILS
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Great, you got a quote. You should have just done that in the first place. thumb up

Now explain in a semi-convincing way why the beskar iron supports were unaffected by Savage and we'll be scorched. I never claimed he was capable of destroying those supports with the amount of energy he used in that feat. They're obviously more durable than the glass.

It's very simple Ant. The glass is made of lightsaber-resistant Beskar, Savage destroyed it, and instead of taking the text as self-evident by drawing upon the power of the English language, you needed to be spoonfed a source. Now you're strawmanning to regain some semblance of self-respect.

DarthAnt66
If the iron is more durable than the glass, who is to say the glass is still even comparably powerful to what Kun faced. mmm

I'm still not convinced it's beskar either, BTW. The glass breaks like glass. I imagine a transparent film would not do that. mmm

Seems to me like you're twisting something blatantly obvious for your own agenda. wink

keep telling me why i suck though thumb up

AncientPower
Still yet to prove how a thin sheet of mando iron forged glass is comparable to a multi-meter thick wall. Even if you do, you've yet to prove Kun was amped at all by Nadd's spirit. Then maybe we can compare Jedi Kun to an Opress who was nearing his prime.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by AncientPower
Still yet to prove how a thin sheet of mando iron forged glass is comparable to a multi-meter thick wall.
As ILS conceded, clearly not comparable to those metal supports, which I doubt were more thick than what Kun was facing. smile

AncientPower
Yeah, this seems to have backfired entirely. thumb up

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
It seems like the cells and the feat are both completely different in the book than they are in the cartoon. In the book he just rips it off its hinges. I'd be interested to know if theres any indication the cells are still transparent in the book, like if Maul can still have his face to face conversation with Sabine in it.

Also it seems like an invalid comparison, since Kun smashes it with a lightsaber as opposed to Savage using the Force. Savage also doesn't do it "casually", he needs effort to do it and its thin glass as opposed to a thick wall. Yes, Maul does talk to Satine in the book through her cell. In addition, Maul and Savage walk past the cells of other prisoners looking at them. Not that it would help your argument one way or another if the door wasn't made of glass, since the door is both made of Mandalorian Iron and destroyed by Savage either way, as per the text.

I'm sure Kun used whatever means he thought most effective in trying to raid Nadd's tomb, which meant his physical power in this case. Also, I like the idea that the cell is made of regular glass but Savage needed effort to destroy it. Pick one.Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If the iron is more durable than the glass, who is to say the glass is still even comparably powerful to what Kun faced. mmm

I'm still not convinced it's beskar either, BTW. The glass breaks like glass. I imagine a transparent film would not do that. mmm

Seems to me like you're twisting something blatantly obvious for your own agenda. wink

keep telling me why i suck though thumb up I already agreed that Kun's wall was tougher to break, although clarified some things about the strength of the prison cell.

Why would the Mandalorians build a prison cell out of regular glass? That's absurd.

It sounds like you're a pedantic retard who is continually scrambling around and backtracking. smile

DarthAnt66
I doubt it's regular glass, but it's still likely a strong kind of glass and not beskar-in-disguise. Interviews with Filoni reveal Lucas' vision of Mandalore being entirely a glass city. Like always, Lucas prefers visuals to science. Why someone would want a city made of glass is beyond me, but that is what we have.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
Yes, Maul does talk to Satine in the book through her cell. In addition, Maul and Savage walk past the cells of other prisoners looking at them. Not that it would help your argument one way or another if the door wasn't made of glass, since the door is both made of Mandalorian Iron and destroyed by Savage either way, as per the text.

I'm sure Kun used whatever means he thought most effective in trying to raid Nadd's tomb, which meant his physical power in this case. Also, I like the idea that the cell is made of regular glass but Savage needed effort to destroy it. Pick one.

Do you have the excerpt? Like I said Savage just rips the door off its hinges in the book, its not particularly notable as a feat in that version.

That's not the point, the point is that you're trying to compare Kun's physical strength to Savages TK, which is silly and doesn't work. And I never said it was regular glass, I just don't think its provably beskar. You're right that it would be idiotic if someone could just punch their way out of a cell, so its certainly stronger than regular glass. Maybe transparisteel. The fact remains though that it is still only thin glass and he only does it in the canon version, which you're adamant we can't use in debates with Legends Maul. Unless that rule is only for things that make him look bad I suppose.

Freedon Nadd
Maul had problems with Palps. Here won't be any different.

Rockydonovang
Oppress didn't need to break the iron to walk through the door, he only needed to break the glass...

darthbane77
Lol, Kun stomps.

AncientPower
Pretty much, yeah.

Zenwolf
I'm not really seeing how in sabers at least.

AncientPower
Stalemating Ulic prior to developing a far deadlier lightsaber style, and being over-all physically better. People like to forget that after Kun blasted through a wall of beskar, Freedon Nadd's spirit physically rebuilt him to be stronger, and infused him with the dark side. All prior to Kun's power literally multiplying.

HeartThrob
This assumes that rumours are limited to being just exaggerations of events where powerful displays of the force are concerned. That is not true. For example, there are articles stating that the Lsunkya was buried with mechanical infrastructure overseen by engineers. Then there are texts claiming Palpatine did it himself, with his personal power. A realm in which wizards bend the laws of physics can inaugurate tons of supernatural possibilities. For instance, If the veracity of Sadows use of sith paraphernalia to cause supernova's is now "dubious" then perhaps he just triggered it with by waving his hands in a standard ship, after all the cosair was destroyed, it might have never had a force boosting function.



I find it funny that you think this is an advantage for Maul of all people. I'd say the domain where Kun's abiitlies can be endlessly speculated upon, is better than the reality where Maul runs from groups of muggles, gets jumped by dogs and has the bright future of carrying on "the sith tradition" wrenched from him when he gets cut in half by an inexperienced padawan.



You think there's a double standard. There isn't. To clarify, I will still discount the non-canon opinions of Witwer and Filoni. They are irrelevant to the events we see on screen, and are merely anecdotes that may or may not be true. Alluding to Gillard's tier system is just a way to categorise characters in a familiar manner for anyone reading. I do this not because they are facts, but because the methodology makes sense. For example Gillard - unlike Filoni - is much better at describing in universe phenomena, such as the dark side being like Force LSD - taking a user beyond their current level instantly, because we see this several times in the movies and in various instances outside of them. This applies to the tiers as well. Compare that to some of the gemstones Filoni has come up with, such as Maul getting three shotted by Ben representing his growth as a swordsman.



Yes, by all means post the entire comic. That way everyone can see that being the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy, doesn't necessarily mean you have the strongest millitary. The two are, very clearly, mutually exclusive. Firstly, the image I posted that gives the broadest level of context possible regarding the "armies" Maul is facing.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2018/YW4jSd.gif

Here we have around thirty unorganised idiots highly skilled killers running on, not claustrophobic, but somewhat confined cat-walks to confront Maul in the centre of the platform. They do this instead of waiting at outposts and shooting the target from strategic locations. Clever. Considering the setting, the first problem with this tactic is that the bodyguards can't surround him without being literally within a few meters radius of him - the size of the platform. And the shooters at the back have to contend with everybody directly in front of them. As we see later in the comic, this can be quite the issue :

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2018/1Xci-z.gif

So not only will anyone at a reasonable distance here have a difficult time getting a clear hit, worse than that, they risk shooting a comrade. On the other hand, only those that have a direct view of Maul are literally within meters of his blade.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2018/c9ihqS.gif

And of course, the trained lightsaber wielding force sensitive cuts down the chaotically assembled muggles at close range. Now tell me why this would be a problem for any other trained jedi/sith with a name and a lightsaber? Furthermore, the idea that Maul flees against several long range shooters who maintain their distance from him, isn't contradicted, and of course the latter counts something that's true, while the former is just a possibility, as you rightly noted.



Yes... and he takes his sweet time doing it too by the looks of things. After he kills the body guards (7 more muggles who try and fight Maul at close range with unsuitable weapons) , he enters the room housing several unwitting crime lords, and of course, the man himself.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2018/DR8RWe.gif

Who closes the gate and leaves before Maul can kill everyone to reach him.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2018/B6UE4t.gif

Now you might ask what Exar Kun would do in this situation? For the answer, we have to go back to where a very pre-prime Ulic who, despite contending with several layers of atmospheric dark side power, blitzes these five (force empowered?) Naddist warriors - the two flashes represent the missing warriors - and he kills the fith cultist before gravity effects the third one's weapon.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2018/XP3vRA.gif

After that he kills warb null in two hits, despite the aforementioned hinderances. Now If Ulic was confronting the Black Sun, everyone in the room dies before Alexi commands the gate to be closed, including that random night sister Maul struggled with.



It's means that Kun is casually capable of using the alteration tree of powers on a much more massive scale than Maul is. Maul might not have sorcery, or stun, or lightning, or any other ability that you'd expect from "one of the most trained sith lords in history". But it doesn't matter, because his raw power has never manifested itself on such a magnitude, even in situations where it would have been useful. And if Kun is capable of casually incapacitating 100,000 targets at once, even if they have a low resistance to that sort of attack, it's reason to believe that his power directed at a single target would be particularly devastating. Do you remember the last time when Maul resisted having his force connection severed, only to get up and kill the person casting that power instantly? Add to the fact that the caster is someone who's survived through the conflicts of a thousand years and used the ability to defeat sith before him.

HeartThrob
The text says that Qui Gon was generally regarded to be one of the most skilled swordsman in Jedi History. It's not an omniscient narrator making this claim. So who's doing the regarding? And what's their metric for cross referencing martial artists throughout time? Being one of the "greatest" or "one of the most skilled" in a Galaxy-wide 20,000 year old organisation is far a too undefined accolade when literally thousands can be mentioned in that capacity. So what's the basis Qui Gon's praise here? My guess, is that it's his piers making this claim. And they're doing it on the assumption that being amongst the noteworthy of any single era puts you in the "one of the best of all time" category. Furthermore, the accolade itself is subject to the authority of the people claiming it - Modern era Jedi. These are usually people who have never been in a serious life or death duel against a trained adversary, and make their assessments with little experience. Now, let me tell you why that experience is necessary :

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2018/PzRTlL.gif

Apparently Jedi sparring sessions and blaster deflection practice doesn't give one the insight they need to build up a suitable duelling style. So while Jinn might be considered a masterful sword fighter to people in his time, he's proabably no better than your average Jedi master who's survived multiple conflicts in older times. In fact, there's a possibility he's even worse than that. He's just a guy who wasn't powerful enough to fully augment himself past old age and lacks key the key duelling components that make a complete fighter. If Vodo Bask was as incompetent as Jinn, he doesn't make it past the age of fifty.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4896768-totj+weapon+master.png

Yet he's survived for more than 500 years, many of those years spent in times where violent conflict was a way of life. And not only does he augment himself to a super human degree, he also imbues a wooden stick with the power to contend with a lightsaber. A weapon that slashes through shielded star ships.



And Anakin regarded Obi Wan being "as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as yoda." Just because Bondara's own apprentice thought of him in a similar manner, doesn't make it the case.



https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-20-2017/PxGu3s.gif

Contradicting the notion that his skill was unequalled.



Obliterated? Really? Like how Ulic obliterated Warb Null in two hits? Or how Ben Kenobi and Kanan obliterated Maul in three?



Even at maximum effort he was finding it difficult to actually land a hit on Bondara.

HeartThrob
The theory is based on the strong probability that's there's parity between eras. That the power levels of the respective leaders of the faction are interchangeable. Now I consider Yoda, Anakin and Mace Windu exceptions to this rule. Obi Wan and Jedi!Dooku, on the other hand? Nope. The kind of prodigious talent inate to them would have manifested across history hundreds, if not thousands of times. The mere fact that Dooku's potential occurred in the same era twice, once in himself and another time in Kenobi, almost garuntees it as a statistical likelihood. The fact that the sample size of Jedi in modern times has "dwindled" to a mere 10,000, strengthens the probability. So i look to the top dogs of any era to fill the void, and in this case Vodo Bask and Odan have also had hundreds of years to hone their connection to the force and train their skills. Odan in particular has had experience fighting sith in the Golden Age of them.



It's the most logical assumption when you take into consideration how all force powers work. The act of keeping someone completely petrified, yet still conscious- essentially force stun - has always been something that required maintained concentration. Jacen solo has unwittingly released petrified targets upon wavered concentration. When Malak stunned Revan, he could keep him there while taunting him, but the instant he engaged Bastilla in a duel, Revan was released. This paradigm seems to manifest itself in every use of the force. And yes, that includes spells :



It's pretty much a general principal of the Force, and not something that literally has to be mentioned on every occurrence. Do the muntur stones remain airborne after Yoda stops levitating them? Inversely, does gravity stop acting on the stones, once they've dropped to the ground? Against Bane on Thython, why does Worrer's battle meditation were off the instant he's been force pushed. Why do Naga Shadows system spanning illusions fade as soon as his concentration is broken? I can honestly go on forever. If you can find me any examples to the contrary, feel free. Because they'd be mere exceptions to the rule. While you're at it prove to me why Exar's feat should be counted as an exception.

With all that in mind, the feat stands firm. Exar stuns around 100,000 targets, and romps his former master without even a minor lapse in the energy and concentration needed to maintain the stasis field over such a large audience.



Not an exception :

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-11-2018/PCP8Q0.gif



Again, not a contradiction, Force powers can and have been used across entire star systems. Leaving the battlefield is not certain evidence that the illusion is persisting without Lok's efforts. And as he stated before, he has to release her, meaning that he's consciously maintaining the mental prison affecting the target(s).




Then tell why on earth this dark side nexus would be helping Kun? Last i remembered, he was a Jedi, and one not who'd descended to darkness when he smashed the wall of Beskarr.



This is apparently wrong, the real equation includes Kun with a nexus hinderance + Plus Nadd's spirit. For all we know the two may just cancel each other out.



Concession accepted.



And how are we judging what constitutes a considerable amount of power ? Freedon Nadd may well have been helping him, but it's revealed later that he has to except the dark side fully before some sort of dark transformation can occur. And that did not happen during or before Exar smashed the wall.



Because Vodo's staff and the virboblade used by Mighella are incomparable. One is the result of Vodo's own power and the other is just a lightsaber resistant metal that uses ultra sonic vibrations to increase it's cutting efficacy. The blade mighella uses is honestly much more comparable to the wall of beskarr Kun smashes down. The only difference it that Mighella's blade less than a centimeter thick.



But it's not just the weight of Maul's own blows causing her wafer thin weapon to snap. You have to also consider that they're striking at each other. Force is being applied to the blade from both opponents, meaning you have to factor in the weight of her blows as well. It's simple physics. Two cars colliding with each other will create a much greater impact than one car hitting something stationary. Factor in how much thinner Mighella's weapon is compared to the Wall of mando iron, and that it certainly lasts a more panels before it get's destroyed, and we have yet another comparison where Kun smells of roses.



That's because when playing chess you don't move the pieces all at once. I started off the debate with a few direct comparisons where Exar performs in manner that would have been extremely useful to Maul, if he had the power or mastery to replicate. As far as something that can be empirically measured, Maul does not have a feat on the level of maintaining a stasis field over 100,000 targets while beating the top weapon master of an era brimming with them, and given his performance against Mighella's katana, he's probably not smashing thick walls of beskarr in a single panel either. You've failed utterly to present why those comparisons are invalid. And until you can properly refute them, they will be held over your head.



Perhaps they are far from the truth, Perhaps Exar shot the wall with a cannon, or perhaps he smashed it down with his bare fists. The speculation can honestly go either way.



The difference is that Jinn actually did employ those acrobatics once, and is literally stated to have tapered his fighting style because his of his own physical limitations, not because he found the use of acrobatics "unnecessary". This tells me that the line between his own physicality and his super human force augmentation is very thin.



Cool story bro.



Which should be compensated for considering his force connection, unless of course, his augmentative skills actually suck, because there's a fine line between his physicality and his force connection, as already theorised.



It cheapens him because one of his crowning battle feats is apparently beating a Jedi that struggles to augment himself past his late-middle aged physical status and uses a form not fit for serious duelling, while on a desert of all places.

Zenwolf
Just one thing, Mighella's blade isn't a Vibroweapon, it's a Force imbued sword as shown with Nightsister magic surrounding the blade, Force imbue is pretty basic. The blade itself wouldn't be saber resistant.

Azronger
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I doubt it's regular glass, but it's still likely a strong kind of glass and not beskar-in-disguise. Interviews with Filoni reveal Lucas' vision of Mandalore being entirely a glass city. Like always, Lucas prefers visuals to science. Why someone would want a city made of glass is beyond me, but that is what we have.

Ant, this isn't hard to understand. The door is stated to be made of Mandalorian iron:

They lead Satine to a prison cell in her own palace, shutting her in a little room with a cot, desk, and chair, behind a door made of Mandalorian iron.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

A door is an object through which one enters or exits a room, or as per Wikipedia, "A door is a moving mechanism used to block off and allow access to, an entrance to or within an enclosed space, such as a building, room or vehicle." A door looks something like this:

https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/3ae40176-9525-4775-a143-a1e779d2d98a/svn/autumn-wheat-white-steves-sons-doors-with-glass-m4151-aw-wj-6rh-64_1000.jpg

To clarify, the brown rectangle is the door. The frames/supports surrounding the brown rectangle are not the door; they are not "a moving mechanism used to block off and allow access to" places. As I said, very simply. I hope you're keeping up.

Savage then breaks through the very-clearly-made-of-Mandalorian-iron-door with a telekinetic blast:

"Apprentice, I wish to tour this facility," he said.

A moment later, the door to their cell exploded outward, ripped away by a tremendous surge in the Force.

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Which is, by all available evidence, better than Kun's feat as the latter required a lightsaber for it.

AncientPower
LMAO.

So he didn't even actually break through beskar? He literally just blew the door off of its hinges.

Kun smashed through beskar with a lightsaber, using brute strength and did actual damage.

The two aren't even comparable, Jedi!Kun > Opress.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nadd amping him at all is mere speculation.
Kun felt a spirit wanting to help him and proceeded to break through. This isn't hard to put together.

Rockydonovang
Not sure why we're still disputing the composition of what Oppress shattered. ILS posted a quote explicitly outlining what Oppress destroyed. The next quote states that mandalorian iron can be made into glass and that Mandalorians turn this iron into glass.

The glass was made out of mandalorian iron. Feel free to dispute how impressive that is, but denying what is explicitly stated is a lazy way of trying to avoid the argument.

AncientPower
You can make that claim but you can't state it as objective.

Regardless, all Opress did was knock the door off the frame.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Not sure why we're still disputing the composition of what Oppress shattered. ILS posted a quote explicitly outlining what Oppress destroyed. The next quote states that mandalorian iron can be made into glass and that Mandalorians turn this iron into glass.

The glass was made out of mandalorian iron. Feel free to dispute how impressive that is, but denying what is explicitly stated is a lazy way of trying to avoid the argument.

I'm not sure why we're talking about a canon feat with regards to Legends Maul.

Darth Thor
^ The Novel is part of Legends.

Nephthys
Yeah, but he only pushed it off its hinges in that version. He didn't shatter it.

carthage
Kun Oneshots
Maul is garbage tier

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.