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Rules:

HtH only
Morals off
Victory via KO, Incap or Death
No Outside Help
PIS/CIS is off
Starts at 15 feet
Location: Roman Colosseum

Scenario 1 : Random encounter

Scenario 2 : w/ prep

Sunny uses the Five Poisons. That move he used on Cyan that is an Insta-kill Iirc. Or he kicks Ozy's ass. Either way.

Actually, it was Cyan who used that move on Sunny, before dying. Bajie and MK still had to go back to the monastery and steal a bunch of stuff to heal him, which resulted in the fight in the dining hall.

Oooooh, I remember now. Sunny killed him, but in the process of dying Cyan smacked him with the 5 Poisons. My bad.

Sunny still wins imo. All his feats over both seasons give him the upper hand.

Sunny stomps
Vastly greater skill, durability, and feats

Sunny stomps...

You guys underestimating Ozy too much lol

Explain.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Explain.

If we go by stats Ozy has speed and strength advantage, as for durability he tanked some shots from Nite Owl (Who casually sends people flying with his kicks and punches)

And as for HtH skills IMO they're equal and how the hell can sunny out prep a guy who outsmarted a nigh omniscient being lol

hbatBh5boPE

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You were saying?

Not impressive but he does remind me of The Bride from Kill Bill.

Come back when Sunny can tag/hit a guy who is fast enough to catch a bullet from point blank range.

It's far better than any of Ozy's fights.

Originally posted by Silent Master
It's far better than any of Ozy's fights.

Irrelevant.

Ozy has the physical advantage still.

No, he doesn't.

Originally posted by Silent Master
No, he doesn't.

Care to explain?

The clips clearly show that Sunny is far more skilled and has better fighting speed.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The clips clearly show that Sunny is far more skilled and has better fighting speed.

The clips only showed how skilled he is against mooks, he even got hit by some of them and you tell me sunny can keep up with ozy in terms of speed? lol

Again come back when Sunny can tag/hit a guy who is fast enough to catch a bullet from point blank range and not some fodders.

Several of those "mooks" displayed far more fighting ability than anyone in the Watchmen movie.

If you think Ozy has better fighting feats, post them.

Even fodder Clippers have been trained since childhood in multiple forms of melee combat. Also, Sunny has beaten people like Silver Moon, the Widow and Quinn. Granted, he did gain the advantage against Quinn because of a distraction, but he had already been fighting quite a bit before they faced off, whereas Quinn hadn't.

But considering the OP's responses to some people (like implying Sunny wouldn't even be able to hit Ozy), the agenda here is clear.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Even fodder Clippers have been trained since childhood in multiple forms of melee combat. Also, Sunny has beaten people like Silver Moon, the Widow and Quinn. Granted, he did gain the advantage against Quinn because of a distraction, but he had already been fighting quite a bit before they faced off, whereas Quinn hadn't.

It's funny how he came in here complaining that people were underestimating Ozy and then proceeds to do exactly that to Sunny.

Ozy has speed and strength advantage.
Skill is a wash.
Ozy wins.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy has no speed and strength advantage.
Skill is a wash since Sonny completely dominates.
Ozy loses.

FTFY.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy has speed and strength advantage.
Skill is a wash.
Ozy wins.

LOL!!!!!!!

Your massive bias keeps getting funnier and funnier.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Several of those "mooks" displayed far more fighting ability than anyone in the Watchmen movie.

If you think Ozy has better fighting feats, post them.

How do you quantify fighting ability? Both can block and parry attacks. Both can deliver fast attacks very efficiently and smoothly.

I quantify it by pawns (thugs, etc).

Nite Owl can defeat a bunch of thugs without getting touched.
Ozy can defeat Nite Owl and Rorschach simultaneously without getting touched.

Assume that BW can defeat a bunch of thugs in h2h. Then can she without getting touched? Can Sunny beat her without getting touched?
This is just an example of how we should argue skill.

Sunny puts up a better fight than NO and Rorschach but Ozy physically outclasses him in every way. Sunny is outmatched here.

Originally posted by h1a8
How do you quantify fighting ability? Both can block and parry attacks. Both can deliver fast attacks very efficiently and smoothly.

I quantify it by pawns (thugs, etc).

Nite Owl can defeat a bunch of thugs without getting touched.
Ozy can defeat Nite Owl and Rorschach simultaneously without getting touched.

Assume that BW can defeat a bunch of thugs in h2h. Then can she without getting touched? Can Sunny beat her without getting touched?
This is just an example of how we should argue skill.

If you don't understand how to judge relative skill, you shouldn't be debating.

The Widow wiped out entire groups of Mercenaries and Clippers without getting touched. She couldn't land a single clean hit on Sunny when they fought, and he didn't even bother to draw his second sword. Hell, out of hundreds of opponents, only a tiny handful have managed to tag Sunny even once or twice. Which is a testament to those individuals, both because of Sunny's onscreen feats and implied skill. Hell, even Silver Moon, a literal living legend with 999 kills, could only manage to push Sunny back once or twice when they fought. So, so much for the untouchable angle.

Also, lol at H1 trying to assert how "we" (as a group) should judge skill. As though he is qualified to tell others here how to analyse evidence and debate.

@TheVaultDweller

Out of curiousity, how would you rank Sunny against Yang from The Warrior's way? Yang is officially titled the world's greatest swordsman and seemed to effortlessly slice his way through any and all opponents, though he did briefly struggle in the shed while he was protecting Lynne and the baby.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
@TheVaultDweller

Out of curiousity, how would you rank Sunny against Yang from The Warrior's way? Yang is officially titled the world's greatest swordsman and seemed to effortlessly slice his way through any and all opponents, though he did briefly struggle in the shed while he was protecting Lynne and the baby.

Yang looks more impressive, visually. Honestly, some of his fights remind me more of Legend of the Sword King Arthur than Sunny. Not quite to the same level, but not that far off either.

@ Carthage

That's something I find hilarious. How people can try to compare inmates and street thugs from Watchmen to people that we know have years of actual combat training (Clippers). Badlands fodder > Watchmen fodder.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yang looks more impressive, visually. Honestly, some of his fights remind me more of Legend of the Sword King Arthur than Sunny. Not quite to the same level, but not that far off either.

I watched it again tonight, for the first time in years, and what caught my attention was how effortlessly Yang sliced through his enemies, cowboys and ninjas alike. Didn't really seem to bother him much when people were shooting at him, either.

I think you're right - he's got some mystic ninja voodoo lifting him close to superhuman, definitely I'd say he's AT LEAST peak human.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Dreampanther
I watched it again tonight, for the first time in years, and what caught my attention was how effortlessly Yang sliced through his enemies, cowboys and ninjas alike. Didn't really seem to bother him much when people were shooting at him, either.

I think you're right - he's got some mystic ninja voodoo lifting him close to superhuman, definitely I'd say he's AT LEAST peak human.

Thanks!

You know, I kind of wondered why I was recalling such a strong recollection between Yang and Arthur, and now I remember why. Legend of the Sword basically ripped off one of the shots from The Warrior's Way in one of their fight scenes.

Seriously, check this out lol:

Around the 20 second mark here:

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And then around the 32 second mark here:

MN48ocm0POQ

And yeah, Badlands characters are insanely durable. Sunny was shot with flaming arrows, had Quinn collapse the tunnel on him, then fought like 20 of Quinn's Clippers, then got stabbed and ragdolled by Quinn during their fight (like a dropkick that sent him flying like 20 feet), and still walked out of that place without any problems.

And people like Quinn and Widow are tough as well. Widow shook off being dropkicked through a brick wall, and Quinn kept going after taking a slash to the side, and sword thrusts directly through the gut and upper torso.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You know, I kind of wondered why I was recalling such a strong recollection between Yang and Arthur, and now I remember why. Legend of the Sword basically ripped off one of the shots from The Warrior's Way in one of their fight scenes.

Seriously, check this out lol:


Ha ha, YES. Now that you point it out, it's very similar, and very indicative of his speed and skill. And do you remember the hallway fight? At 1:15 he dodges a bullet point blank and at 1:51 he cuts through a bullet as it's leaving the barrel.

cU0C7rXFhx8

Have to say, if I was Sunny I might want to skip this fight. As for Ozy, well

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
@ Carthage

That's something I find hilarious. How people can try to compare inmates and street thugs from Watchmen to people that we know have years of actual combat training (Clippers). Badlands fodder > Watchmen fodder.

But Nite Owl could beat a lot of fodder clippers in h2h. Nite owl was fodder to Ozy.

Originally posted by h1a8
But Nite Owl could beat a lot of fodder clippers in h2h. Nite owl was fodder to Ozy.

Prove it.

Originally posted by h1a8
But Nite Owl could beat a lot of fodder clippers in h2h. Nite owl was fodder to Ozy.

Based on what? Beating thugs and inmates that have no established or shown training and skill? Because we are explicitly shown and told what the Clippers are. We are shown how they train, live, operate etc. We know that they are all meant to be highly trained close-range warriors. We know that you have to spend years as a Colt before even standing a chance of becoming a Clipper. The fodder Nite Owl beat has zero such credentials.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Ha ha, YES. Now that you point it out, it's very similar, and very indicative of his speed and skill. And do you remember the hallway fight? At 1:15 he dodges a bullet point blank and at 1:51 he cuts through a bullet as it's leaving the barrel.

cU0C7rXFhx8

Have to say, if I was Sunny I might want to skip this fight. As for Ozy, well

Pity the overall quality of the movie was not all that great IMO (let's be real, the fighting is by far the most entertaining part of the film). But yes, he's a beast, and a step up from the guys in this thread.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Based on what? Beating thugs and inmates that have no established or shown training and skill? Because we are explicitly shown and told what the Clippers are. We are shown how they train, live, operate etc. We know that they are all meant to be highly trained close-range warriors. We know that you have to spend years as a Colt before even standing a chance of becoming a Clipper. The fodder Nite Owl beat has zero such credentials.


Isn't it interesting how H1's new standard doesn't follow either writer's intent or visual feats. do you think that is because both would prove that the Clippers are far more skilled than the fodder in the Watchmen universe?

Ozy's only chance is to beg Sunny not to beat him up badly

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Based on what? Beating thugs and inmates that have no established or shown training and skill? Because we are explicitly shown and told what the Clippers are. We are shown how they train, live, operate etc. We know that they are all meant to be highly trained close-range warriors. We know that you have to spend years as a Colt before even standing a chance of becoming a Clipper. The fodder Nite Owl beat has zero such credentials. Could fodder clippers beat many thugs without getting touched? Proof.

Until then Nite Owl>>>>>>>>any fodder clipper.

^^ What H1 said right there is some of the biggest horseshit ever. Of course you can discern fighting skill between different universes using Writer's Intent. If a bunch of people are portrayed as random thugs and inmates, and display no notable training or skill, and the others are shown to go through intense training, basically live like post-apocalyptic samurai, and visually have better combat feats, then they are clearly portrayed as superior. But of course H1 will completely ignore this and say the opposite, because he will spew any crap under the sun in his attempts to skew an argument in his favour. Pretty hilarious how he will insist his interpretation of Writer's intent is stone-cold fact, even when screen evidence contradicts him. But here, when it is clear as day, he tries to label it "Not discernible". Not to mention it's highly hypocritical, considering some of his LoS arguments in the past involving Nolan Bane, when he insisted LoS training would make Bane a superior fighter in skill and speed (despite how he visually looked) than a bunch of MCU characters (i.e. using his interpretation of Writer's intent with fighting skill to make a comparison between universes).

Also, lol at that guy throwing out claims about Nite Owl beating groups of Clippers, then provides zero proof when asked, and then essentially demands a negative to said unproven claim. Typical H1 nonsense.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Based on what? Beating thugs and inmates that have no established or shown training and skill? Because we are explicitly shown and told what the Clippers are. We are shown how they train, live, operate etc. We know that they are all meant to be highly trained close-range warriors. We know that you have to spend years as a Colt before even standing a chance of becoming a Clipper. The fodder Nite Owl beat has zero such credentials. That's irrelevant. Thor has thousands of years of experience and yet Batman, Cap, Elektra, etc are more skilled than him. There are countless other examples in fiction and in real life.

So that argument holds no water.


Show me a fodder clipper beating multiple thugs without getting touched.
Till then, they don't have the feats to justify that they can do that.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Yes, it is.




That isn't true, at all.

No it isn't. It's impossible to know if a writer thinks ANY particular character fights better than another from a totally different fictional universe.

Originally posted by Silent Master



That isn't true, at all. In h2h, it is true. In weapons is a different story since neither displayed skill in weapons.

Originally posted by h1a8
No it isn't. It's impossible to know if a writer thinks ANY particular character fights better than another from a totally different fictional universe.

You are purposely misunderstanding my point. We are not comparing how one writer would view characters from another universe. We are comparing writer A's intent for character A with writer B's intent for character B.

It's like you don't even know how comparisons work.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You are purposely misunderstanding my point. We are not comparing how one writer would view characters from another universe. We are comparing writer A's intent for character A with writer B's intent for character B.

It's like you don't even know how comparisons work.

Yup. He knows exactly what we are talking about. He is being intentionally obtuse because he knows that the Clippers were portrayed as a highly trained fighting force, whereas the thugs and inmates in Watchmen were portrayed as nothing but thugs and inmates. I own the extended cut of that film. There is absolutely nothing in it to suggest any of the thugs Nite Owl beat had any comparable training to what Clippers go through.

But I suspect he will just continue to harp on about his interpretation of our point for the next 5 to 10 pages, without addressing the actual argument.

For someone who claims to be highly intelligent and a teacher, he seems to be incapable of understanding even the most basic concepts.

At this point, I am convinced it is intentional trolling. Because it happens far too often. Instead of actually addressing the relevant part of people's posts, he will pick a random thing to go off about over and over, stalling a thread for multiple pages in the process in some instances (recent examples being the Bucky elbow strike and the old woman from Luke Cage). He basically annoys/frustrates the other person into giving up, because they can't be bothered wasting any more time responding to him. It's why most people barely make the effort anymore.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You are purposely misunderstanding my point. We are not comparing how one writer would view characters from another universe. We are comparing writer A's intent for character A with writer B's intent for character B.

It's like you don't even know how comparisons work.

That's what the discussion is about. You just can't come in and change things.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yup. He knows exactly what we are talking about. He is being intentionally obtuse because he knows that the Clippers were portrayed as a highly trained fighting force, whereas the thugs and inmates in Watchmen were portrayed as nothing but thugs and inmates. I own the extended cut of that film. There is absolutely nothing in it to suggest any of the thugs Nite Owl beat had any comparable training to what Clippers go through.

But I suspect he will just continue to harp on about his interpretation of our point for the next 5 to 10 pages, without addressing the actual argument. You are using faulty analogies. We are not comparing clippers to thugs. We are comparing clippers to nite owl and Rorschach.

The discussion has never been about what writer A thinks of a character created by writer B.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are using faulty analogies. We are not comparing clippers to thugs. We are comparing clippers to nite owl and Rorschach.

So you admit that the Clippers are more skilled than the thugs in Watchmen?

Originally posted by Silent Master
The discussion has never been about what writer A thinks of a character created by writer B.

Lol I totally called it. Knew he would choose to harp on about his interpretation of things instead of the very obvious actual point. It's blatantly obvious that we are not referring what writer A thought of character set B and vice-versa, or comparing fodder with main characters, but H1 will try and act like it is in order to avoid answering the real question. Like I said, he's just a troll.

And a liar too, seeing as my initial point was very clearly a comparison between the fodder Nite Owl fought and fodder Clippers, asking him what he was basing his claims on about Nite Owl being able to beat a group of them (not beating a group of them is not the same as not being better than individual Clippers, so his only attempted counter is somewhat of a strawman as well). So, I didn't even make any claims. Just asked him to back his. But does he do so? No. He first tries to avoid he burden of proof and flip it onto me, and now this crap.

Originally posted by Silent Master
So you admit that the Clippers are more skilled than the thugs in Watchmen?

Yes, and Nite Owl and Rorschach are more skilled than them (in h2h).

In h2h
Ozy >>>>>>>Nite Owl and Rorschach >>>>Fodder Clippers
Sunny >>>>Fodder Clippers

Therefore Ozy >>>>Sunny

Sunny is >>>>>Dark Ones/Barons while Dark Ones>>> Barons>>>>Regents and Regents >>>>Clippers.

So shut up, your logic is once again false, and just plain wrong. A single clipper would've cleared that entire hallway.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes, and Nite Owl and Rorschach are more skilled than them (in h2h).

Prove it.

Originally posted by h1a8
In h2h
Ozy >>>>>>>Nite Owl and Rorschach >>>>Fodder Clippers
Sunny >>>>Fodder Clippers

Therefore Ozy >>>>Sunny


At worst it's Nite Owl and Rorschach = Fodder Clippers. Therefore Sunny beating large groups of them is more impressive than Ozy only beating 2 comparable people.

Rorschach got apprehended by mere cops for cripes sake. He's a nobody.

Sunny beats the living crap out of Ozy.

So, h1 isn't even going to attempt to address anything anymore? Just repeat his personal nonsense ABC logic, even though I have already shown that beating random Watchmen nobodies does not mean you can do the same to Badlands Clippers, considering, by feats and screen info, Badlands Clippers > Watchmen thugs.

Originally posted by tkitna
Rorschach got apprehended by mere cops for cripes sake. He's a nobody.

Sunny beats the living crap out of Ozy.

Doesn't matter to H1. As shown already, he has no interest in real debate here.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Doesn't matter to H1. As shown already, he has no interest in real debate here.

He never did

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
So, h1 isn't even going to attempt to address anything anymore? Just repeat his personal nonsense ABC logic, even though I have already shown that beating random Watchmen nobodies does not mean you can do the same to Badlands Clippers, considering, by feats and screen info, Badlands Clippers > Watchmen thugs.

Yeah, he's basically arguing that beating Watchmen thugs makes them far more skilled than the Clippers. Even though by his own admission Clippers are more skilled than Watchmen thugs.

It's like arguing that defeating random white belts makes someone more skilled than a 7th degree black belt.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Yeah, he's basically arguing that beating Watchmen thugs makes them far more skilled than the Clippers. Even though by his own admission Clippers are more skilled than Watchmen thugs.

It's like arguing that defeating random white belts makes someone more skilled than a 7th degree black belt.

We use feats when arguing characters from different universes. How else could you prove that Nite Owl >>>fodder clipper in h2h?

Originally posted by h1a8
We use feats when arguing characters from different universes. How else could you prove that Nite Owl >>>fodder clipper in h2h?

Only you have provided no feats proving that they're more skilled, just baseless claims.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Only you have provided no feats proving that they're more skilled, just baseless claims.

I did. You just conveniently ignored them.
Remember they beat multiple thugs without getting touched.
This is a greater feat then anything the fodder clippers have shown in h2h.

Originally posted by h1a8
I did. You just conveniently ignored them.
Remember they beat multiple thugs without getting touched.
This is a greater feat then anything the fodder clippers have shown in h2h.

Beating people that you admit are less skilled than the Clippers in no way proves that they're more skilled than sed Clippers.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Beating people that you admit are less skilled than the Clippers in no way proves that they're more skilled than sed Clippers.

Basically they have feats of beating multiple thugs. Fodder Clippers don't have any feats other than getting beat.

Basically feats vs no feats prove the two are better in h2h.

Originally posted by h1a8
Basically they have feats of beating multiple thugs. Fodder Clippers don't have any feats other than getting beat.

Basically feats vs no feats prove the two are better in h2h.

Beating groups of white belts in no way proves that you're more skilled than a back belt. You're just making things up.


But back to topic, Sunny >>>>Ozy >>>>> Nite owl and Rorschach in skill.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Beating groups of white belts in no way proves that you're more skilled than a back belt. You're just making things up.


But back to topic, Sunny >>>>Ozy >>>>> Nite owl and Rorschach in skill.

I've seen thugs beat the shit outta black belts. Same size too.

Feats >>>>>>Experience and training.
Cap>>>>>>>Thor in h2h yet Thor has hundreds of times more experience and training.

That's why we go by feats. Clippers don't have any.
If 3 random thugs fought one in h2h then there is no evidence that they can win without getting hit or hurt a little.

You of all people tried to say that Baleman was a horrible fighter (super slow) while disregarding his training. That was your logic.

Sunny isnt that great tbh.

By feats Sunny >>>>Ozy >>>>> Nite owl and Rorschach.

Originally posted by Silent Master
By feats Sunny >>>>Ozy >>>>> Nite owl and Rorschach.

Ozy beat two individuals, that are capable of beating multiple thugs without getting touched, simultaneously in h2h without getting touched.

Sunny beat fodder featless Clippers.


Ozy caught a bullet at close range.

So how are Sunny's feats better?

Originally posted by h1a8
Ozy beat two individuals, that are capable of beating multiple thugs without getting touched, simultaneously in h2h without getting touched.

Sunny beat fodder featless Clippers.


Ozy caught a bullet at close range.

So how are Sunny's feats better?

Sunny has beaten far more than just Clippers.

Sunny >>>> Ozy in skill.

Sunny dismantled a man who had killed 999 people.
He took down the third most powerful of the Dark Ones after MK and the Master, Abbot Cyan.
He took on several Barons and proved to be better than all of them, even Quinn, who Sunny fought while severely wounded and weakened from an extended fight, several explosions, and an arrow or two in him.

Not to mention massive slabs of rock falling on him

The fact that h1 thought that Sunny has only ever fought featless Clippers just proves that he doesn't have the first clue about what he's talking about.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Sunny has beaten far more than just Clippers.

Sunny >>>> Ozy in skill.

Clippers are the most skilled beings he beat in h2h.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The fact that h1 thought that Sunny has only ever fought featless Clippers just proves that he doesn't have the first clue about what he's talking about.

The argument is that he never beat 2 beings simultaneously that are capable of beating multiple thugs without getting touched, without getting touched.

Originally posted by h1a8
Clippers are the most skilled beings he beat in h2h.

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you for proving that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Lol!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you for proving that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

You needed proof?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Lol!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you for proving that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. He did not beat any monks in h2h without getting touched (or at all).

Originally posted by h1a8
He did not beat any monks in h2h without getting touched (or at all).

Your claim was that the Clippers were the most skilled people Sunny beat, are you backing away from that retarded statement?

Are you backing away from this retarded claim?

Originally posted by h1a8
Clippers are the most skilled beings he beat in h2h.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Are you backing away from this retarded claim?

The statement is true.

Originally posted by h1a8
The statement is true.

Prove it.

That isn't a negative.

Your claim was that the Clippers were the most skilled people Sunny beat, that isn't a negative.

Originally posted by h1a8
Clippers are the most skilled beings he beat in h2h.

The above statement isn't a negative claim and no amount of you trying to weasel out of it will change that fact.

Back up your claim.

Seriously, how retarded is his argument. he is basically saying that you could claim that a random Shield agent is more skilled than Ozy and then when called on it. Go, "A random Shield agent is more skilled than Ozy implies that Ozy isn't as skilled as a random Shield agent."

Originally posted by Silent Master
Seriously, how retarded is his argument. he is basically saying that you could claim that a random Shield agent is more skilled than Ozy and then when called on it. Go, "A random Shield agent is more skilled than Ozy implies that Ozy isn't as skilled as a random Shield agent."

A negative can be disproven.

Originally posted by h1a8
A negative can be disproven.

Back up your claim.