High Meta Tourney - FINAL - Supermutant vs Smurph

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No prep
Standard Equipment
BFR with no possibility of returning in a reasonable time is a loss
Opening + 2 posts
Posters are in full control of the characters



Opponents start at opposite corners of the ring on the ground.
Deadline: Monday.

Good luck!




Invisible Woman Unleashed: Post 2

I laid out a simple, powerful, and provable plan in my OP:

Sue flattens everything around her
Sue goes invisible and maintains the assault
If necessary, Sue uses the time she's bought to bypass Sinister's shields and rip him apart
That's still the plan, and it's still simple to execute. As I'm about to show, Sue is a consistent powerhouse. Sinister might be versatile, but he's extremely inconsistent, and none of his powers match up to Sue's.

Invisible Woman: God of Force-fields

Mutant has made a few claims to assert that Sue can't get past his force-field:

a) Sinister's shields are 'down to the molecular level.'

Scans of this? (lol, I doubt I'll get a response to this request). There's nothing special about TK that makes it harder to bypass than all the energies at Doom's command.

b) It took Sue eight pages to get past Doom's shields.

^ This is just a misinterpretation of the fight. The fight ended on the 8th page, but Sue only actually starts using her shields on Doom's person on page 6, and she reveals that she's bypassed his force-field on page 7. Sue's invisible forces are drawn in by the artist, so we can see when she starts attacking Doom's armor, which is exactly when she says
"You have your own force-field -- your armor gives you that, but --"

So we know, through the artist and the writer, exactly when Sue turns her attention to Doom's shields: one page before she breaches them.

And to reiterate, Doom >>> Sinister

c) Those scans are of Malice, not Sue, so she can't repeat the feat.

I repeat, from my OP: the feat was based on Sue's experiences, using her own powers, and she was 'present' for it, seeing as she recalls the whole fight later. Sue doesn't normally utilize her own powers this way, but she can. As two of my opponents have stressed to me this tournament: we are the ones in control, we decide our character's mindset and power use.

Invisible Woman is a powerhouse

You may have heard that Sue Storm is the most powerful member of the F4.

How hard can she hit?

Sue sends AU Hulk, Thing, Dr. Strange, Wolverine, Captain Marvel, Captain America, and Cyclops flying with a single blast.


Sue topples a skyscraper-sized adamantium super sentinel that was ripping apart the Avengers:



How strong are her shields?

Sue easily halts combat and contains the individual fighters, including: Hulk, AU Hulk, She Hulk, Spectrum, Captain Marvel, Captain Britain, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, and many others... and she does it all while the fighting is on the ground, and she's on the helicarrier.


And she has other well known, badass feats, like blocking Ragnarok's lightning: https://postimg.org/image/xf08vw1lf/

How about her range & endurance?

Sue shields a whole city for an entire day, keeping everybody in/out: https://postimg.org/image/7igodoicj/

Again, per my OP, Invisible Woman easily and quickly levels this whole facility

Sinister does not have the shield feats or reflexes to block an attack of this speed and magnitude.

Notice that all of my feats of Invisible Woman are from recent comics, where she is more powerful by many increments than her old days as Invisible Girl.

Now notice that all of Mutant's anti-Sue scans are from old, outdated books.

I can back up my claims about Sue with much stronger evidence than his. How about the claims about Mr. Sinister?

Where are the feats of Sinister's instant shields? I can show instant, speed of thought attacks from Invisible Woman; where is the scan of Sinister erecting a shield at the speed of thought? And per my opponent's post, in Marvel, speed of thought can be faster than speed of light (see Sue blocking many lasers after they're fired, in my OP).

Mr. Sinister "durability"

So a pissed off Invisible Woman is powerful enough to wreak a massive base/facility with a single attack, and powerful enough to send the Hulk and Thing flying with a single pulse, but Mr. Sinister is going to laugh off her attack:

Lol, ok. Let's investigate how Mr. Sinister fares against energy attacks:

Cyclops blasts giant holes in Sinister

Much like Cyclops, I am attacking with pure concussive force. Unlike Cyclops, I will hit Sinister's entire body, not just his midsection.

Bishop blows through Mr. Sinister's head

But, to be fair, those are all from older comics, so let's go more recent. Sinister recently took on all of the X-Men by mass producing hundreds of clones of himself. These clones were exact genetic replicas of him; more evidence = https://postimg.org/image/grkybqqt7/. And yes, they had all the same powers, even telepathy (get to that in a moment...)

Further, Super Mutant cannot claim that these Mr. Sinisters are different, because he's been using feats from these clones for the entire tournament

So how did these new and improved Sinisters fare against basic attacks?



As soon as that happens, Sinister's telepathic control drops, but his consciousness just jumps into another one of his hive clones, and the sniped Sinister is 100% dead/ko'd. So before the next Sinister can take up the assault, Colossus steps in. Remember how Sinister was supposed to laugh off Piotr's attacks?


...lol x2.

This continues like this: More bullets. Danger kills a bunch.

Again, this is the exact same Sinister army that you've seen Super Mutant use over and over now in his scans. For reference, it's from Uncanny X-Men (2012) 1-3 and 14-17. He can't have his cake and eat it too; if it's only the Sinister of old that's durable, then all of those durability feats are inadmissible now.

Sinister's inconsistent telepathy

OK, I mentioned that Super Mutant's feat of Sinister seeming to stop the minds of multiple opponents at once:

Scans look familiar? That's because it's the Sinister army... meaning that there are hundreds/thousands of telepaths there.

Note what Sinister says:

Hive-mind, Scott, with me sitting on top and directing everything as a monarch should.

And then notice all the floating Sinisters behind him... also using telepathy, with the same psychic energy drawn around their heads?

This is the best feat of Sinister's telepathy, and it's actually Sinister x1000

More evidence from the same series:

Sinister has divided up his clones into 'psychic battalions'

Sinister has special tech to amp his psychic attacks: https://postimg.org/image/uzan0mvuz/

Now, to add insult to injury, even with a psychic hive mind and special tech, none of which he'll have in this battle, Sinister is still only equal to an untrained, unskilled Hope who copied Emma's powers:


...and then Emma easily takes him to school:


So, I reiterate: Mr. Sinister is no Emma Frost. Super Mutant has been trying to sell his best feats as regular Sinister, when those feats require significant context, and are irrelevant to this fight.

So, where are the feats of Sinister locating a hidden enemy and casually shutting off their mind? In Mutant's one remaining scan, where Sinister tells Domino to sleep, he's gesturing right at her. How hard is it for him to scan an area and find minds? How skilled is Sinister, actually, given that he had every advantage and couldn't outfight Hope Summers?

To answer my own questions, I'd like to present Mr. Sinister getting the psychic tables turned on him by Spider-Man


laughing out loud

Anyways, if Sinister can't even make a roomful of enemies go to sleep, and actually gets chumped by Parker, then I don't think his telepathy is all it's been cracked up to be in this tournament.

Smurph final post:

Invisible Woman Unleashed: Conclusion

In this tournament, Invisible Woman has won against Jean Grey, and (narrowly) lost against Emma Frost. The deciding factor in each fight was Sue's initial action: her attacks work at the same speed as telepathy, her reflexes are faster, and she hits harder. If Sue's very first action is a strong, reflexive attack from the get-go, she should demolish any meta tier telepath.

Mr. Sinister has huge variability in his power levels, and despite that, Invisible Woman is still conclusively faster and more powerful than Sinister. Sinister's highs include smacking around teams of X-Men, including the likes of Rogue, Storm, and Dazzler. Invisible Woman's highs (which are much more consistent with her overall power level) include smacking around teams of Avengers, including Hulk, Thor, and Dr. Strange.



and because her shields are strong enough to contain three Hulks at once, consider how much it will hurt when she instantly brings that force down on Sinister's person:


...he'll look at lot worse than Taskmaster.

Now, Super Mutant has made the lofty claim that Sinister could straight up tank this attack, because he's taken punches from Classic Rogue, even though comparing a Rogue punch to a Sue blast is like comparing a Daredevil punch to a Cyclops blast.

Power differential aside though, the claim ignores Sinister's many embarrassingly low durability showings. Over the course of his history, he's been routinely ripped apart and liquified by energy attacks:


And more recently he's been killed by bullets, brute force, and lasers. He also killed one of his own bodies with a bullet to the head:


In an earlier match, Super Mutant claimed that the above scans showed Sinister 'teleporting before someone else shoots him in the head'... but as the scans clearly show, it's Sinister himself who draws the gun and kills one of his many bodies.

The problem in this match is that Sinister only has one very squishy body, and that Super Mutant has knowingly been using the above version of Sinister for this match, and the whole tournament... we take the good with the bad for our characters, and Sinister lately has some real low showings.

Speaking of the bad, it's really bad for Sinister that he needs so much prep to match up against Emma Frost, and it's bad that he needs that tech and prep to accomplish the one thing that Super Mutant is counting on to win the match: scan for minds (remember, Sue is invisible and will not be easily detected), and put those minds to sleep.

It's doubly bad because Sinister has no scans otherwise of accomplishing the above, and he does have instances of failing to 'sleep' Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, and Spider-Man (notice that they're all still awake, just in pain. Sue can keep fighting while in pain). None of those characters are telepaths or have special shielding, and Spider-Man of all people is able to outright resist Sinister's commands, and successfully turns the table on him.

It's triply bad because Mutant used the evidence of Sinister nation, without telling anybody that Sinister was leveraging psychic battalions and super tech and a hive mind, to argue that Sinister > or = Xavier, Emma and others. And he needs to do that, because Sinister simply doesn't have the feats that Emma and Xavier do. Specifically, he doesn't have any feats of sheer range, or of locating minds Cerebra-Style, and both Emma and Xavier have those in spades. Without those feats, we simply don't know if Sinister can find Sue or quickly shut her down without using a no limits fallacy.

The one scan that Mutant HAS provided of Sinister directly sleeping somebody, with Domino, we can see Sinister directly gesturing at and focusing on Domino, and we don't have any other context to go on for how Sinister accomplishes it. Is other tech involved? Can we trust Super Mutant at his word?

Remember, even in the worst case scenario where Sinister survives the initial blast and manages to erect a shield, all that Sue needs to do is avoid a 'sleep' command for a few seconds before she's penetrated Sinister's shields and ripped him apart, exactly like she did to Dr. Doom. And remember, in that exact same match, she resists Dr. Doom's mental attack.

She resists it because she has Malice in her mind... and Malice hasn't gone anywhere, she's still residing in Sue's mind. smile

Finally, to conclude, I'll briefly touch on speed again:

Super Mutant needs to prove that Sinister would move fast enough to block Sue's attack with his shield. To do that, he needs to prove that Sinister moves faster than Sue, because the actions are happening at equal speed (thought), so the difference in reflexes between Invisible Woman and Sinister should make the difference here.

Judges, I don't think Mutant has made that case, and I think Sue is noticeably faster than him, which makes sense, because she has way more appearances to her name, and she is regularly blocking lasers after they're fired, etc, in those appearances. If however, you think that speed is a wash, the balance should conclude that Sinister is crushed by the opening attack: Sinister's shield originates around him once he thinks 'shield'; Sue's attack originates at every point in a radius around her once she thinks 'boom'.

This means that even as the shield starts to form, before it can block attacks, all the points inside the shield are simultaneously getting squished. And based on the above scans (Colossus squishing Sinister's head...), the fight should end there.

In case you buy that Sinister's healing factor makes a sudden reappearance after all these showings, then he'll be healing from goop, leaving Susan lots of time to rip through his shield and scatter his molecules to the wind.

Good game, Mutant. thumb up



My vote goes to Supermutant.

While I thought both debaters did a great job on going point for point, calling into question each others claims and solidifying their strategies in each reply. Nevertheless, in my mind Supermutant got the better end of the trade: he convinced me he was free to use the full powers of Mr. Sinister and that he could dispose of Sue at reasonable speed. He also defended his ability to depend with his shield against an attack explicitly coming from an outside range. Taking all the elements of each poster's strategy, I felt that Supermutant came enough on top to make his victory more or less clear.

Thanks to both for giving us this fine match and sorry that it took me so long to post my reply. Your debates always make for a fun read.

LoB verdict:

I've read this final matchup and tried to explore every aspect of the arguments presented by both sides. Smurph, touts Invisible Woman's superior speed and the efficiency of her shields both offensively and defensively. Supermutant, promoted the myriad of abilities possesed by Mr. Sinister varying from telekinesis, telepathy, super-strength, enhanced invulnerability and speed.

In the end my judgement comes down to essentially this. This battle wasn't simply Smurph vs Supermutant but rather Smurph vs Supermutant AND himself. Nearly every point posed by Smurph to bolster Sue was not only countered by Supermutant but ALSO by the words of Smurph himself.

In every post provided by Supermutant he provided proof of Mr. Sinister's advantages in this matchup; and then further strengthened these points with quotes from Smurph who argued against Sue's abilities in a previous battle.

I don't believe Sue's speed is enough to surpass that of Essex to gain an advantage. After that we are left with Sinister's plethora of abilities against the durability of Sue's shields. It was shown by Smurph himself that telepathy can bypass Sue's shields and Essex is a telepath powerful enough to accomplish this.

WINNER- Supermutant

P.S. Supermutant is merely a PAPER CHAMPION as I THE LORDOFBATTLEZONES was NEVER truly defeated!!!

Winner of the match and tourney: Supermutant

Congrats, thank you to all participants and judges.

Very good debating all around.

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