TPM Maul vs. Jedi Dooku

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The Ellimist
who wins

Kurk
Dooku based on him being 2nd to Yoda at that time.

LordOfTheLight
Mace was second to Yoda, not Dooku. Although evidence indicates that Dooku would have been close to Mace.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Mace was second to Yoda, not Dooku. Although evidence indicates that Dooku would have been close to Mace.

Evidence has Yoda calling Dooku his strongest student and that Dooku used to outspar Mace as a Jedi. Which makes sense considering Vaapad wouldn't be that great against a Jedi Master with amazing Form II.

Darth Tyranus>Jedi Dooku>Mace>Darth Tyranus

A perfect example of why A>B>C logic doesn't work in star wars.

Geistalt
Except Mace probably improved by RotS.

To the extent that he was capable of outdueling Sidious.

Geistalt
Jedi Dooku still wrecks, though. If Maul can be taken off-guard by a Padawan, he can be taken off-guard by the Jedi Order's finest student.

ILS
We often take for granted the enormous power boost Dooku received with Sidious' tutelage, yet people have no issues pontificating over how massively omfgwtf super powerful Maul became in TCW because he started lifting heavy things. It's quite funny.

Based on the fact Dooku was introduced to "powers beyond his most spectacular fantasies" by Sidious, aka powers Maul had already been extensively tutored in, and based on the fact Dooku has no accomplishments to outrank Maul's own capabilities at this time, I'll need to throw the vote to the more deserving party. Maul wins.

Likely a good fight though.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Geistalt
Except Mace probably improved by RotS.

To the extent that he was capable of outdueling Sidious.

Do you have a quote for that? Mace is tailor made to take on powerful darksiders. He can outduel Sidious with Vaapad, but would lose to Yoda everytime even though the two are on a par.

Geistalt
Originally posted by Azronger

https://i.imgur.com/jxsZ87o.jpg

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Geistalt


No I mean Mace getting stronger from TPM-ROTS.

ILS
And explain how gravity exists, while you're at it.

We need proof Mace got more powerful in 13 years including 3 years of extremely intense war. Chances are he stagnated.

Geistalt
D'oh; I ran to that quote as soon as I read the first sentence.

Apparently equally respected and powerful as Yoda, per Fact File 11:


Roughly equal to Darth Tyranus as of Dark Rendezvous:

~Quesin~
Jedi!Dooku was still of prodigious Force talent and lightsaber skill. I'd give him a good edge against Maul.

CuckedCurry
Dooku.

quanchi112
Maul wins.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by ILS
And explain how gravity exists, while you're at it.

We need proof Mace got more powerful in 13 years including 3 years of extremely intense war. Chances are he stagnated.

Did Yoda get more powerful in 13 years including 3 years of extremely intense war? Did Kit Fisto? Did Agen Kolar? + We've seen some Jedi like Kenobi atrophy with age past 40...you know like normal people.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Did Yoda get more powerful in 13 years including 3 years of extremely intense war? Did Kit Fisto? Did Agen Kolar? + We've seen some Jedi like Kenobi atrophy with age past 40...you know like normal people.

Originally posted by Geistalt
D'oh; I ran to that quote as soon as I read the first sentence.

Apparently equally respected and powerful as Yoda, per Fact File 11:


Roughly equal to Darth Tyranus as of Dark Rendezvous:

Yeah the second would suggest he surpassed Jedi Dooku. Although Yoda as of DR does call Dooku the strongest student with Mace in the room if I recall.

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul wins. Based on?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
Based on? His style being more effective against Dooku's style.

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
His style being more effective against Dooku's style. Dooku has successfully defeated Juyo/Vaapad users like Sora Bulq. Style by itself is not enough.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
Dooku has successfully defeated Juyo/Vaapad users like Sora Bulq. Style by itself is not enough. This is Maul here. Dooku didn't last that long against Anakin's aggressive style in rots. I don't expect him to last that long against Maul here either.

Geistalt
Anakin had Force strength comparable to Yoda's at the time.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Geistalt
Anakin had Force strength comparable to Yoda's at the time. It was just his skill with a saber which won him the duel. We see it came down to skill with a lightsaber not overall force power. He was just too good for Dooku.

Geistalt
If you say so.

But Labyrinth of Evil claims Anakin was as powerful in the Force as Yoda.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Geistalt
If you say so.

But Labyrinth of Evil claims Anakin was as powerful in the Force as Yoda. Despite all his force power he failed against Kenobi who didn't even have the force power of Dooku. Why because it had to do with their skills with a lightsaber not just force power alone.

Geistalt
And even with power equal to Yoda's he had trouble following Mace and Sidious in the RotS novel.

It suggests that he won largely thanks to Force power, rather than dueling prowess.

Him being hindered on Mustafar and subsequently faring as badly as he did against Kenobi suggests that Mustafar Vader was as powerful in the Force as Kenobi and slightly worse skill-wise.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Geistalt
And even with power equal to Yoda's he had trouble following Mace and Sidious in the RotS novel.

It suggests that he won largely thanks to Force power, rather than dueling prowess.

Him being hindered on Mustafar and subsequently faring as badly as he did against Kenobi suggests that Mustafar Vader was as powerful in the Force as Kenobi and slightly worse skill-wise. No, I don't buy it. I hear the same double standards all the time. Somehow when he wins its due to power but when he loses to a less powerful opponent excuses are thrown around. Giving into your anger lets loose your power and he was raging against Kenobi. He lost because he made a poor decision due to arrogance. He was unable to strike,Kenobi down prior to his poor impulsive decision.


Dooku was arrogant against Anakin and lost. Just as Dooku explains to Yoda this will be decided by our skills with a lightsaber. Both duels were skilled light saber fights.

Geistalt
How is examining that statement from Labyrinth of Evil and then the fact that he was Kenobi's equal in Force strength on Mustafar a double standard?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Geistalt
How is examining that statement from Labyrinth of Evil and then the fact that he was Kenobi's equal in Force strength on Mustafar a double standard? He is more powerful and Kenobi but in a test of force power there wasn't a difference. That goes to show you despite the edge Anakin had that it didn't really matter when push came to shove. That's why the huge difference in power between Snoke and Rey is so impressive.

Bentley
Dooku is the finest saber in the mythos and this time he won't be as old as he was in RoTS.

The only hope Maul has is to be better at the Force and boost himself beyond Dooku, but he won't do it as well as Anakin did.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Bentley
Dooku is the finest saber in the mythos and this time he won't be as old as he was in RoTS.

The only hope Maul has is to be better at the Force and boost himself beyond Dooku, but he won't do it as well as Anakin did. Maul is far more agile and full of hatred than Dooku. His movement speed is far greater than Dooku who relies on precise strikes to make up for his aged body.

Geistalt
Snoke and Rey don't exist in Legends, tho

Zenwolf

Bentley
Dooku has faced a faster and more unconventional opponent in Yoda who also happened to be more powerful in the Force than Maul. His master was also a much smaller target who, due to smaller members, could flex his weapon much more quickly. Jedi Dooku is also younger so he is less impaired by his age than he was in either of his movie appearances.

Ultimately Maul is good but he's no Sidious/Yoda/Vader.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Geistalt
Snoke and Rey don't exist in Legends, tho I don't care about legends.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Bentley
Dooku has faced a faster and more unconventional opponent in Yoda who also happened to be more powerful in the Force than Maul. His master was also a much smaller target who, due to smaller members, could flex his weapon much more quickly. Jedi Dooku is also younger so he is less impaired by his age than he was in either of his movie appearances.

Ultimately Maul is good but he's no Sidious/Yoda/Vader. Dooku didn't best Yoda and fled from him. Maul would best Vader and anyone on that level. Sidious, Yoda, and Windu would best him. I'm as objective as it gets.

Bentley
Originally posted by quanchi112
Dooku didn't best Yoda and fled from him. Maul would best Vader and anyone on that level. Sidious, Yoda, and Windu would best him. I'm as objective as it gets.

Again, you don't need to best Yoda to outclass Maul. Maul doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell vs Peak Anakin.

As far as fencing goes I don't think Mace is beyond Dooku tbh. I'd give Tyranus a few wins on him at least.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Bentley
Again, you don't need to best Yoda to outclass Maul. Maul doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell vs Peak Anakin.

As far as fencing goes I don't think Mace is beyond Dooku tbh. I'd give Tyranus a few wins on him at least. You are lying. Peak Anakin didn't even best Kenobi so do not lie or exaggerate Vader. He was always more of a tragic character than some badass just mopping the floor with his opponents.

Windu is in the upper tier Dooku isn't. You're free to believe in unicorns and pixie dust just don't expect me to share your odd beliefs.

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't care about legends. Then gtfo. Wrong thread. Jedi Dooku doesn't exist outside of legends so you're debating against nothing.

Bentley
Originally posted by quanchi112
You are lying. Peak Anakin didn't even best Kenobi so do not lie or exaggerate Vader. He was always more of a tragic character than some badass just mopping the floor with his opponents.

Kenobi just improved and dropped all his distraction. He was getting his _ss handed to him at the beginning of the match but then he let go off his doubts and fears. Without those worries Kenobi was a force to be reckoned with.

Also Vader, just like Maul, lost because he underestimated his Obi-Wan, not because he was just outclassed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Windu is in the upper tier Dooku isn't. You're free to believe in unicorns and pixie dust just don't expect me to share your odd beliefs.

Windu had Vapaad against Sheev, he won't get as big of a boost vs Dooku who has a style that will be effective vs Windu.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Kurk
Then gtfo. Wrong thread. Jedi Dooku doesn't exist outside of legends so you're debating against nothing.


You 2 broken up?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
Then gtfo. Wrong thread. Jedi Dooku doesn't exist outside of legends so you're debating against nothing. I am speculating about canon Dooku. You are so emotionally weak these days. Maul wins over canon Dooku.

#disneymattersnotyourfanfic

quanchi112
Originally posted by Bentley
Kenobi just improved and dropped all his distraction. He was getting his _ss handed to him at the beginning of the match but then he let go off his doubts and fears. Without those worries Kenobi was a force to be reckoned with.

Also Vader, just like Maul, lost because he underestimated his Obi-Wan, not because he was just outclassed.



Windu had Vapaad against Sheev, he won't get as big of a boost vs Dooku who has a style that will be effective vs Windu. You are speculating. He's always been a match for Vader.


Maul disarmed him and had him at his mercy. Vader never disarmed or had him at his mercy. Maul is superior to Vader.

That's in his own abilities so I don't care. You have yet to prove a guy skill wise raped by Anakin touches Windu who according to Lucas is at the top level. Dooku is clearly weaker and not top level, Frenchmen.

Kurk
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You 2 broken up?
Read the battle bar
Originally posted by quanchi112
I am speculating about canon Dooku. You are so emotionally weak these days. Maul wins over canon Dooku.

#disneymattersnotyourfanfic
Canon jedi Dooku is featless, kiddo. You're speculating on a character that has only appeared in a flashback in TCW. Why don't you go debate canon sith Dooku vs Maul in another thread; or are you afraid that Dooku with feats will persevere over Maul?
Originally posted by quanchi112
You are speculating. He's always been a match for Vader.


Maul disarmed him and had him at his mercy. Vader never disarmed or had him at his mercy. Maul is superior to Vader.

That's in his own abilities so I don't care. You have yet to prove a guy skill wise raped by Anakin touches Windu who according to Lucas is at the top level. Dooku is clearly weaker and not top level, Frenchmen.
I was going to quote from the RotS book, but you've already made it clear you don't acknowledge sources that don't fit your agenda. Even concerning the canon Vader comic you've stated yourself that it's merit less. The double-standards are clear now. Use what supports your stance but ignore anything that doesn't.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
Read the battle bar

Canon jedi Dooku is featless, kiddo. You're speculating on a character that has only appeared in a flashback in TCW. Why don't you go debate canon sith Dooku vs Maul in another thread; or are you afraid that Dooku with feats will persevere over Maul?

I was going to quote from the RotS book, but you've already made it clear you don't acknowledge sources that don't fit your agenda. Even concerning the canon Vader comic you've stated yourself that it's merit less. The double-standards are clear now. Use what supports your stance but ignore anything that doesn't. I made it clear I was speculating but this actually tells me a lot about the current state of affairs for Star Wars debaters and their obsession with feats.

I don't rely on feats alone. Firstly this isn't a science and I can use my critical reasoning to have a reasonable discussion. Have you forgotten I am referred to as Mr. Reasonable.

Maul wins over any version of Dooku. I've made that abundantly clear. If you think my opinion has changed explain why my former apprentice.


I use the films and live action series. The directors don't give a shit about some novel book or comics which are cater to a separate audience altogether.

When have I used double standards ? I am consistent in my criteria across the board well in case you have forgotten I am Mr. Reasonable.

carthage
Dooku oneshots

quanchi112
Originally posted by carthage
Dooku oneshots Based on ?

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
I made it clear I was speculating but this actually tells me a lot about the current state of affairs for Star Wars debaters and their obsession with feats.

I don't rely on feats alone. Firstly this isn't a science and I can use my critical reasoning to have a reasonable discussion. Have you forgotten I am referred to as Mr. Reasonable.

Maul wins over any version of Dooku. I've made that abundantly clear. If you think my opinion has changed explain why my former apprentice.


I use the films and live action series. The directors don't give a shit about some novel book or comics which are cater to a separate audience altogether.

When have I used double standards ? I am consistent in my criteria across the board well in case you have forgotten I am Mr. Reasonable. Sweetie, if you want to debate characters using only their movie and TV show appearances like a normie, you're in the wrong section of the Star Wars forums. This is Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe. Go try the film and tv show sections. You'll infuriate fewer people there and have an overall better time smile .

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
Sweetie, if you want to debate characters using only their movie and TV show appearances like a normie, you're in the wrong section of the Star Wars forums. This is Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe. Go try the film and tv show sections. You'll infuriate fewer people there and have an overall better time smile . Then you'll be deprived of my wisdom and become stagnate in your own personal growth. I don't seek to infuriate I seek to have reasonable discourse.

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
Then you'll be deprived of my wisdom and become stagnate in your own personal growth. I don't seek to infuriate I seek to have reasonable discourse. So you're oh so wise and reasonable, yet willfully ignorant about the finer details of Star Wars...right.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
So you're oh so wise and reasonable, yet willfully ignorant about the finer details of Star Wars...right. I am wise not to waste my time onslemthinngtnat doesn't really matter in Star Wars. It's just want to sell more merchandise. They tried the same nonsense with their Star Trek comics but admitted it in an interview.

Kurk
Originally posted by quanchi112
I am wise not to waste my time onslemthinngtnat doesn't really matter in Star Wars. It's just want to sell more merchandise. They tried the same nonsense with their Star Trek comics but admitted it in an interview. Because a business is going to spend its resources on a niche area of a franchise in order to sell more "merchandise" rather than focus on the pop-culture aspect of it....right

quanchi112
Originally posted by Kurk
Because a business is going to spend its resources on a niche area of a franchise in order to sell more "merchandise" rather than focus on the pop-culture aspect of it....right Any business is going to sell more merchandise because it's their goal to maximize profit. That I understand but don't expect me to believe the salesman with everything they tell you. The comics, games, etc. don't matter when it comes to the films and live action series.

You're old enough to decide for yourself and ignore my infinite wisdom. One day you will log in and apologize to me.

Rockydonovang
A reminder that jedi dooku was vast vastly below his sith self...

ILS
Dooku is the only character that can do absolutely nothing worthy of note and still win threads.

carthage
Doing nothing of note >>>> getting
Cut in half by a padawan

Lord Stark
Originally posted by ILS
Dooku is the only character that can do absolutely nothing worthy of note and still win threads.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/400x/36555134/your-salt-is-too-damn-salty.jpg

Bentley
Originally posted by ILS
Dooku is the only character that can do absolutely nothing worthy of note and still win threads.

I guess sh_tstomping Anakin and Kenobi, being historically a better duellist than Mace and being able to stand his ground against Yoda are no feats...?

(At least one of these feats is atributed to this specific version of Dooku)

Azronger
Dooku blitzes smile

ILS
Originally posted by Bentley
I guess sh_tstomping Anakin and Kenobi, being historically a better duellist than Mace and being able to stand his ground against Yoda are no feats...?

(At least one of these feats is atributed to this specific version of Dooku) Yeah, he was an equal for TPM Mace. The other two feats are after he went through a significant power increase.

Explain to me how that puts him above Maul.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by carthage
Doing nothing of note >>>> getting
Cut in half by a padawan


Maul is roughly the same age as Kenobi, who was also thoroughly well trained by TPM.

This -got cut down by a Padawan- nonesense is Just playing on semantics to lowball.

quanchi112
Originally posted by carthage
Doing nothing of note >>>> getting
Cut in half by a padawan Maul won the duel and lost due to overconfidence. Siduous was killed by a weaponless Vader whi just lost a hand. Context matters.

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul is roughly the same age as Kenobi, who was also thoroughly well trained by TPM.

Actually, Maul's training would be, by any common sense, infinitely superior to Obi Wan's. In addition, he has a master infinitely superior to Obi Wan's master, who directs all of Maul's energies towards achieving more power in an incredibly better way. In addition, Maul has incredibly more amount of resources to learn from, and sources of knowledge much, much more potent than Obi Wan has access to, as being a padawan, he has much, much lesser knowledge than your average Jedi Master, and the Banite archives which were accessible to Maul should be at the very least, superior to that.

I mean, it is obvious that we cannot compare the training of these two guys.

Darth Thor

quanchi112
People need to realize too that these guys are not infallible and quit deifying them into legend. Take Luke's words from the Last Jedi seriously. That being said Maul wins.

LordOfTheLight
I am not exaggerating anything.

Let us first consider that Obi Wan was given the same training as any other padawan. He may have been the best of his generation, but that is because of his natural talent, not any special training. No hype has been given to his training at all. You can argue that Qui Gon would have instructed him well, giving him better training than most other Jedi Masters would give to their apprentices( which is pure speculation), and admittedly, Jedi training as a whole would be the best in this era, but that's about it.

Next, the training of Sith apprentices are naturally far more intense than Jedi training, because most of their efforts are focused and directed towards combat, whereas for Jedi, a huge chunk of time is devoted to various miscellaneous stuff, not to mention that they do not train as intensively for combat as Sith do. Now let us consider that Banite training, would be a lot more advanced than your average Sith training because they have far better knowledge, resources and potential. A Banite Sith apprentice not only has access to a tremendous amount of knowledge of the best of the Ancient Sith, but they have the full knowledge of the earlier generations of their order as well( which is especially noteworthy, when you consider that Bane, the weakest of their order, is arguably comparable to Sith like Ludo Kressh or Naga Sadow by consensus). Maul being at the very end of this line, benefits the most out of it.

Now consider that Maul's training has specifically been hyped even on top of that, and repeatedly been stated to be among the best in history. A great many accolades point to his training as being of supreme quality. Apparently, neither Plagueis nor Sidious had the same intensity of training, and their abilities are well known. Next, Maul's master, is infinitely more powerful and knowledgeable than Obi Wan's own and would have directed Maul's efforts to achieve more power in a much better way than Qui Gon ever would to Obi Wan.

That kind of stuff blows any kind of training Obi Wan got out of the galaxy. I'd wager that the kind of knowledge Maul had access to would be above even many of the best Jedi Masters of the era. Let's not forget that Knights have a greater knowledge base and resources than padawans, and Jedi Masters have access to such amounts of knowledge, that a choice few Jedi( knights) even "dream" of.

So, no, not really. The two aren't comparable at all.

LordOfTheLight
On topic, I don't know.

HeartThrob
Doesn't the new canon material say that Obi's Force potential is actually meh, and his power level is due to hard work.

Kurk
Originally posted by HeartThrob
Doesn't the new canon material say that Obi's Force potential is actually meh, and his power level is due to hard work. It was legends where it was stated that he almost was kicked out of the order for having a poor future or something along those lines.

LordOfTheLight
He was nearly kicked out because he was basically emoKin in his early days. Full of anger and rage, and so on.

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by HeartThrob
Doesn't the new canon material say that Obi's Force potential is actually meh, and his power level is due to hard work.

Don't know about canon, but his potential is not meh, lmfao. Both Yoda and Qui Gon have remarked incredibly high on it.

A guy who masters the Jedi fundamentals taught to initiates by by the age of two, a guy who is near-equal to one of the best Jedi Masters in the 25000 year old history of the order when he is just a 17 year old padawan, a guy who has been repeatedly stated to be among the best Jedi of the entire order, when only just a padawan( and the Jedi of the era are the best of all time), and a guy who was Yoda's "first choice" for many unconventional missions when only just a padawan, despite the fact that generally teams of Jedi( Masters and apprentices) are sent for such stuff, I am pretty sure will be among the most talented of the most talented of all the Jedi in the mythos.

Let's not even get into his feats as a padawan.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul is roughly the same age as Kenobi, who was also thoroughly well trained by TPM.

This -got cut down by a Padawan- nonesense is Just playing on semantics to lowball.

Nah its technically true. Kenobi was certainly Knight-level by that point, but Maul still was overwhelmed by enraged Kenobi. In fact were it not for his weapon being double chamber he would have been effectively disarmed in seconds by TPM Kenobi. Dooku would never be disarmed by AOTCs Kenobi, let alone one ten years his junior.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah its technically true. Kenobi was certainly Knight-level by that point, but Maul still was overwhelmed by enraged Kenobi. In fact were it not for his weapon being double chamber he would have been effectively disarmed in seconds by TPM Kenobi. Dooku would never be disarmed by AOTCs Kenobi, let alone one ten years his junior.


And yet even post AOTC, Kenobi couldnt simply disarm Maul in seconds during TCW. So clearly Maul was simply caught off guard by the intensity of Kenobis rage attack.

Plus you cant relate what would happen with different weapons like that.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
I am not exaggerating anything.

Let us first consider that Obi Wan was given the same training as any other padawan. He may have been the best of his generation, but that is because of his natural talent, not any special training. No hype has been given to his training at all. You can argue that Qui Gon would have instructed him well, giving him better training than most other Jedi Masters would give to their apprentices( which is pure speculation), and admittedly, Jedi training as a whole would be the best in this era, but that's about it.

Next, the training of Sith apprentices are naturally far more intense than Jedi training, because most of their efforts are focused and directed towards combat, whereas for Jedi, a huge chunk of time is devoted to various miscellaneous stuff, not to mention that they do not train as intensively for combat as Sith do. Now let us consider that Banite training, would be a lot more advanced than your average Sith training because they have far better knowledge, resources and potential. A Banite Sith apprentice not only has access to a tremendous amount of knowledge of the best of the Ancient Sith, but they have the full knowledge of the earlier generations of their order as well( which is especially noteworthy, when you consider that Bane, the weakest of their order, is arguably comparable to Sith like Ludo Kressh or Naga Sadow by consensus). Maul being at the very end of this line, benefits the most out of it.

Now consider that Maul's training has specifically been hyped even on top of that, and repeatedly been stated to be among the best in history. A great many accolades point to his training as being of supreme quality. Apparently, neither Plagueis nor Sidious had the same intensity of training, and their abilities are well known. Next, Maul's master, is infinitely more powerful and knowledgeable than Obi Wan's own and would have directed Maul's efforts to achieve more power in a much better way than Qui Gon ever would to Obi Wan.

That kind of stuff blows any kind of training Obi Wan got out of the galaxy. I'd wager that the kind of knowledge Maul had access to would be above even many of the best Jedi Masters of the era. Let's not forget that Knights have a greater knowledge base and resources than padawans, and Jedi Masters have access to such amounts of knowledge, that a choice few Jedi( knights) even "dream" of.

So, no, not really. The two aren't comparable at all.


Of course they are comparable, otherwise there would be no fight at all.

Remember Qui-Gons words- But He was well trained in the Jedi arts-

Qui-Gon wasnt like OMFG that dudes skillz were like wayyy ahead of what we teach!

Just look at the fact that Obi-Wan outperformed his Master in combat by the end of TPM. Or look at Anakin smoking out Dooku, despite Dooku having spent several decades perfecting fencing. Or Padawan Luke taking out Vader.


Jedi training is intense itself (especially at the height of their power), but to reach new level of power you need to connect better to the Force. And theres no evidence anything the Sith do is more advanced for those purposes. Some things just need time (and potential).

Mauls training was better, which is why he was better than Obi-Wan at the time. But Obi-Wan/Qui-Gons training (at the height of the Jedi) were clearly still on a level where they could fight as even compete against Maul.

relentless1
theres plenty of quotes though that say the Dark Side is more concentrated in the Sith as compared to the light side in the Jedi; this may have been hyperbole on the part of Plagueis but its always seemed to me that the Jedi know that their Sith counterparts are superior for the most part; notwithstanding yoda, mace, obi wan of course; they immediately promoted Kenobi to knight based purely on his defeat of a confirmed Sith Lord; Dooku was unbeatable til the very end by the Chosen One; same with Sidious, even Yoda mused to himself that he wasn't up for the challenge when he faced Sidious.

Darth Thor
Theres nothing inherently better about the Sith. They just have to choose apprentices wisely because there can be only 2.

Maul being one of the best trained Sith in history is as much to do with the Jedi/Sith being at their peak in this time period, as it is to do with Sidious superior training.

Still Maul was better trained, ergo why he was better than Obi-Wan (at the time) but saying Infinitely better as if we are comparing an accomplished Master to a half trained Padawan is going completely overboard IMO.

Especially given the way Obi-Wan won was basically highlighting a Jedis strength and Siths weakness.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Darth Thor
And yet even post AOTC, Kenobi couldnt simply disarm Maul in seconds during TCW. So clearly Maul was simply caught off guard by the intensity of Kenobis rage attack.

Plus you cant relate what would happen with different weapons like that.

Well, actually we don't know that. Part of Maul's technique is utilizing a saber staff, Kenobi clearly struggles with single blade Maul thereafter in TPM. The next time we see Kenobi fight Maul with a saber staff he also defeats him in seconds.

Not saying he wasn't, I'm saying that Dooku would not be. We see Dooku face off against a far more powerful Anakin, and get demolished. Uh, yes you can, when people portray Maul vs. Kenobi in TPM as a MAUL ZOMGODSTOMP, when in fact he was very hard pressed to defeat him, and again got his weapon destroyed and put on his ass. Granted by this point TPM Kenobi was easily performing at master level, but the point still stands that this was a hard duel for Maul by this point, arguably the most difficult of his life. And TPM Kenobi isn't exactly Dooku or Mace Windu as far as bladework goes.

ILS
Such a retard.

HeartThrob
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight

lmfao. Both Yoda and Qui Gon have remarked incredibly high on it.

A guy who masters the Jedi fundamentals taught to initiates by by the age of two, a guy who is near-equal to one of the best Jedi Masters in the 25000 year old history of the order when he is just a 17 year old padawan, a guy who has been repeatedly stated to be among the best Jedi of the entire order, when only just a padawan( and the Jedi of the era are the best of all time), and a guy who was Yoda's "first choice" for many unconventional missions when only just a padawan, despite the fact that generally teams of Jedi( Masters and apprentices) are sent for such stuff, I am pretty sure will be among the most talented of the most talented of all the Jedi in the mythos.

Let's not even get into his feats as a padawan.

The question LOTL, was wether Obi Wan is eluded to having a mediocre inate power within the realm of canon. A relevant detail despite you're non-answer drawing almost entirely from Legends sources. How about saving the lubricant for when the time calls for it. As for the enquiry regarding Kenobi's potential, this is all that needs to be said:

Rockydonovang
So that people don't try to estimate Dooku's abilities base don his aotc-rots showings:


Atm, I favor Maul, that said, you might be able to base an argument for Dooku off the following:




And if you scale him above TPM Mace, he gets this:


The argument for Maul would be that

A. He's in the same tier as Sith Dooku who is vastly above his Jedi self.
B. He has more impressive feats and scales above incarnations of Kenobi that

-> Have telekenetically cloaked and tk'd 40 m ships
-> Have fought off the mental influence of a bunch of banite sith artifacts trying to kill him
-> Have done the heavy lifting bringing down large air ships 5 years post TPM

Not to mention Maul's Sidious tier potential and the decades of top tier training he's received.

Overall, I find all of the above impressive enough to supersede Jedi Dooku's hype, even if we assume that the difference between a low 8 and high 8 can be equivalent to Dooku getting "infinitely more powerful".

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by relentless1
this may have been hyperbole on the part of Plagueis but its always seemed to me that the Jedi know that their Sith counterparts are superior
Yeah, if the power of the force was distributed to an alignment's number of members, then there's no way anyone on the lightside should be able to rival Sidious or Dooku and yet, multiple people do(Yoda, Jedi Anakin, Mace ect.)

Plagueis himself admitted they'd get wrecked by the jedi order if they took them head on which shouldn't be the case if power was equally distributed to the members of each alignment.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Well, actually we don't know that. Part of Maul's technique is utilizing a saber staff, Kenobi clearly struggles with single blade Maul thereafter in TPM. The next time we see Kenobi fight Maul with a saber staff he also defeats him in seconds.


That's because Rebels Kenobi suckered Maul in with Qui-Gon's stance, and Maul used the same move to defeat him that he used against Qui-Gon.

We've been explained that by both the Rebels Recon on the episode and by Witwer. So no point in disputing it.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not saying he wasn't, I'm saying that Dooku would not be. We see Dooku face off against a far more powerful Anakin, and get demolished. Uh, yes you can, when people portray Maul vs. Kenobi in TPM as a MAUL ZOMGODSTOMP, when in fact he was very hard pressed to defeat him, and again got his weapon destroyed and put on his ass. Granted by this point TPM Kenobi was easily performing at master level, but the point still stands that this was a hard duel for Maul by this point, arguably the most difficult of his life. And TPM Kenobi isn't exactly Dooku or Mace Windu as far as bladework goes.


I don't know where you're getting that it was such a hard fight for Maul. He got caught off guard once, but still defeated him, and it didn't take much longer than the time it took to defeat Qui-Gon (both on Naboo and on Tatooine).

You have Ventress disarming Kenobi in TCW movie, yet Kenobi goes on to stomp her. Savage disarms Dooku, yet Dooku still manages to fight off him and Ventress.

Being disarmed of part or all of your weapon isn't the end of the world.

No Enraged TPM Kenobi wasn't on Dooku or Windu level, but then TPM Maul wouldn't defeat Dooku or Windu in 35 seconds either. Maul force pushing Kenobi down the shaft was showing Maul being the superior duelist/combatant. Because Kenobi didn't anticipate and try to block it.

Now if Kenobi attempted to block the Force push and still got overpowered (like Anakin vs Dooku in TCW movie), then you could argue Kenobi matched Maul with a blade but Maul only won due to superior TK. But that's not how it happened. If not a Force push, it would have been a punch or a kick, but either way Kenobi was going to get defeated in direct combat, because he simply wasn't on par with Maul as a combatant at the time.

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by ILS
We often take for granted the enormous power boost Dooku received with Sidious' tutelage, yet people have no issues pontificating over how massively omfgwtf super powerful Maul became in TCW because he started lifting heavy things. It's quite funny.

Based on the fact Dooku was introduced to "powers beyond his most spectacular fantasies" by Sidious, aka powers Maul had already been extensively tutored in, and based on the fact Dooku has no accomplishments to outrank Maul's own capabilities at this time, I'll need to throw the vote to the more deserving party. Maul wins.

Likely a good fight though.

Is it plausible that Qui Gon had a potential on the level of Dooku?

I mean, as per the Core Rulebook, Yoda considered Qui Gon as a youngling to be better than Dooku( the best student he had trained in over 400 years in the Order and this fits in what we know about Yoda which is that he gave up the training of apprentices somewhere in the middle and began training younglings in the Jedi fundamentals to prepare them for their journey as a padawan). Additionally, Dooku also gives Qui Gon some pretty excellent hype and holds him in pretty high regard.

Given that TPM Maul's position is more or less on the same level( whether he is above or below Dooku is up for interpretation) as TPM Dooku's and that Qui Gon was pretty competent against Maul, it kind of fits what we know about them.

TPM Dooku's "exact" position also seems to be wavering below TPM Maul's position, so we can easily deduce that Qui Gon is reasonably close to TPM Dooku. In addition, there is a gap of 10 years between them. Could Qui Gon bridge that gap in that much time?

As for "exhaustion" which is likely to be a counterargument, firstly, we don't know how well Dooku who is infinitely weaker than ROTS Dooku would fare against an enemy like Maul and secondly, Qui Gon uses a form that is the most likely to exhaust someone of his age, while Dooku uses a form that is "least" likely to exhaust someone of his age, which is a pretty big factor to consider.

At least, this is how it looks like, which is my interpretation. It may not be the case. Thoughts on the matter?

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Is it plausible that Qui Gon had a potential on the level of Dooku?

I mean, as per the Core Rulebook, Yoda considered Qui Gon as a youngling to be better than Dooku( the best student he had trained in over 400 years in the Order and this fits in what we know about Yoda which is that he gave up the training of apprentices somewhere in the middle and began training younglings in the Jedi fundamentals to prepare them for their journey as a padawan). Additionally, Dooku also gives Qui Gon some pretty excellent hype and holds him in pretty high regard.

Given that TPM Maul's position is more or less on the same level( whether he is above or below Dooku is up for interpretation) as TPM Dooku's and that Qui Gon was pretty competent against Maul, it kind of fits what we know about them.


I always took that to mean that QGJ had a better understanding of the Force that mirrored and/or surpassed that of Dooku and (possibly) Yoda due to the whole force ghost spiel, not necessarily combat prowess.

LordOfTheLight
How much understanding of the force can a youngling have?

Besides when put into the context of the TPM novel, it is pretty obvious that it is referring to combative prowess only.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
How much understanding of the force can a youngling have?

Besides when put into the context of the TPM novel, it is pretty obvious that it is referring to combative prowess only.

Wasn't Dooku a fiery tempered youngling?

*shrug. Regardless, you may or not be right. as in Legacy of the Jedi? I think it's what it is called. I think there's a quote calling Padawan!Jinn an equal to Jedi!Dooku so *shrug

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