Quantifying Banite scaling

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Azronger
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/azronger/blog/quantifying-banite-scaling/133270/

Feedback is appreciated.

Unbowed
The "mathematical method" made me chuckle, especially when I realized it comes from the same brilliant mind behind the "dark side accumulator" thread. laughing out loud

The Ellimist
Why are you assuming that the apprentice's growth rate remains constant throughout time?

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why are you assuming that the apprentice's growth rate remains constant throughout time?

I mean, the Banites continued to gather and study knowledge and I can't recall any instances where a Force user hasn't stopped growing as they trained.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Azronger
I mean, the Banites continued to gather and study knowledge and I can't recall any instances where a Force user hasn't stopped growing as they trained.

Sure but growth usually levels out at some point and people hit diminishing returns; if we drew straight lines we'd get rather ridiculous results.

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sure but growth usually levels out at some point and people hit diminishing returns;

Based on? Didn't happen with Dooku or Sheev after they hit their sixties.



Why are they ridiculous? smile

The Ellimist
I mean we observe through pretty much every form of development that people make big gains but hit diminishing returns where it takes more effort to make equivalent gains (with some caveats - usually you hit multiple plateaus but as a general rule there are diminishing returns over the long term). There's little reason to think this doesn't apply to Star Wars as well.

And it does happen to Dooku and Sidious, though perhaps less so than one would expect due to both their enormous potential and getting some extra boosts in old age (Dooku by apprenticing himself to Sidious, and Sidious via Byss + his Force studies + his clones). It seems unlikely that Sidious from age 20 to 50 did not grow more than Sidious from age 50 to 80.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean we observe through pretty much every form of development that people make big gains but hit diminishing returns where it takes more effort to make equivalent gains (with some caveats - usually you hit multiple plateaus but as a general rule there are diminishing returns over the long term). There's little reason to think this doesn't apply to Star Wars as well.

And it does happen to Dooku and Sidious, though perhaps less so than one would expect due to both their enormous potential and getting some extra boosts in old age (Dooku by apprenticing himself to Sidious, and Sidious via Byss + his Force studies + his clones). It seems unlikely that Sidious from age 20 to 50 did not grow more than Sidious from age 50 to 80.

Elm is of course right. Ashoka grows faster then obi wan.

Freedon Nadd
And, yet, when Palpatine had problems with his clone body in Dark Empire, he went to Korriban Sith Lords to ask for their help. It's safe to state that it isn't 100% the apprentice will grow more knowledgeable than the Master.

AncientPower
I like how Bane isn't surpassed by Zannah, how Cognus is highly unlilely to have surpassed Zannah, how Millennial gave Cognus the finger with it implied he'd also failed to surpass her. How Gean and Gravid were strongly implied to be the opposite of successful in that regard, and also massively damaging the knowledge and teachings of the entire Order, and all of that before we ever actually see Tenebrous quantify the generational power growth in any meaningful ways.

But no, the power gap must obviously have been by entire orders of magnitude, because RoT.

NewGuy01
>Bane isn't surpassed by Zannah
She managed to defeat him in her early 30's (younger than Bane was in PoD), and became more powerful immediately thereafter upon inheriting the mantle of DLOTS. On what basis did Zannah fail to surpass Bane when it's canonically stated that she did?

>Cognus is highly unlikely to have surpassed Zannah.
Bullshit. laughing out loud

I assume Millennial didn't surpass Cognus
That's baseless, too, but Millennial defected, so he's not even part of the lineage.

B-but Gean and Gravid!
Gravid still surpassed and defeated his master, and Gean still surpassed and defeated him. Luceno even stated that the only purpose of that backstory was to separate the modern Sith (i.e Plagueis and Tenebrous) from the older, more 'magical' teachings of the ancients.

AncientPower
She was getting utterly overpowered in their fight to the point that her situational awareness was zero, and her mental attack didn't work because his will was too strong. She's forced to revert to a massive amp to defeat him in actual combat. She definitely hadn't surpassed him then and her POV throughout DoE implies that she couldn't rely on further power growth to overthrow him despite him having clearly reached his prime.

There's a big deal made about her ability to suppress the Force in others and that her apprenticeship was focused on mastering this power. That implies that she got by on this ability instead of, y'know, actually overthrowing Zannah. In DoE, I got the distinct impression that she'd already gained a considerable degree of her potential and that both Bane and Zannah were massively above her paygrade.

Cognus is enraged by him leaving, he never tries to take her down and seemingly can't when he decides Kaan was actually better. By this point she has to train another apprentice.

Gean surpassed him, which is why she was literally eviscerated in her heroic attempt to prevent what he'd done. The knowledge they lost was stated to have taken a massive toll on the order, they canonically lost numerous techniques, Essence Transfer being among them. They also lost their knowledge on Sith magic. Yet for all the scientific advancements of Tenebrous and Plagueis, Sidious still considered sorcery to be the true source of dark side power upon him regaining all of that knowledge.

Not that any of that is really all that important. What is, is that there's no reason to conclude a massive power gap across the Banite line. Especially not when the quotes used are both vague and are stated in general without context. A generational power growth occurred, yes. Was it massive? Until we get to Tenebrous we've got no reason to believe so.

DoE Bane is arguably on Tenebrous' tier.

LordOfTheLight
NewGuy, why are you getting into an argument with it?

Just put the lol emoticon and move on.

AncientPower
The typical non-response of the PT wankers.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by AncientPower
She was getting utterly overpowered in their fight.

Sure, she had a hard time, because Zannah is physically weaker and less proficient in close quarters combat than Bane; sorcerer-types generally struggle against juggernaut-types of the same class in one-on-one battles. Although, that being said, considering that Zannah won that fight, I wouldn't really call your "utterly overpowered" description accurate in the first place.



Not as strong as hers, as it turned out.



Funny how when Zannah summons tendrils on Ambria it's a "massive amp," but when Kun does it with help on the infinitely stronger nexus of Yavin IV, it's an accurate demonstration of his power.



Citation needed.



Citation needed.



Even if this was true, it stands to reason that whoever her apprentice was would also have to deal with this ability when they overthrew her. The fact that they prevailed regardless, when Zannah didn't, means that the lineage still became stronger.



Yeah, that impression of yours is stupid and wrong. Bane intended to take the Huntress as his apprentice because he felt Zannah would be incapable of killing him; ergo, he thought she had the potential to surpass both Zannah and himself. Besides, on what basis do you believe that the Huntress--who had no formal force training--had already reached a "considerable degree" of her potential ability as a force user?



Since he fundamentally disagreed with the principles of the Rule of Two, Millennial would've had no reason to challenge Cognus for her position. And once again, what the hell does Cognus's half-trained dropout apprentice have to do with Tenebrous, who was a genuine master in the Order of the Sith Lords?



Gean surpassed him, which is why Gravid was literally dead.



Sure, but you're missing the big picture. We're using Bane and Tenebrous as reference points, yeah? Bane spent a grand total of twenty years acquiring Sith knowledge. Even if we grossly exaggerated Gravid's impact and said that he erased all of the Order's knowledge other than what Gean personally knew, Tenebrous would still have hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge to work with from after that conflict. Unless you mean to say that Bane is somehow dozens of times more productive in searching for knowledge than his stronger and more affluent successors, Tenebrous still leaves him in the dust.



You realize that Plagueis could use sorcery, and that Bane couldn't, right? messed



Uh, the fact that there were thirty successive generations of Sith, with each stronger than the last, is a pretty damn good reason to believe that there was a massive gap between Bane and Sidious, yeah.



Sounds like a shitty argument.

ILS
Originally posted by AncientPower
DoE Bane is arguably on Tenebrous' tier. ........

Greysentinel365
Originally posted by ILS
........

Best to just ignore it if you plan on avoiding an aneurysm

Haschwalth
Originally posted by ILS
........
It's like there was no point, in even creating the RoT, let alone waiting/preparing for millennium.
By AP's logic.

Azronger
Put that... thing on ignore NewGuy. Please.

Azronger
I removed the portion discussing the mathematical method, as the controversy spawned by it overshadowed the rest of the content in the blog. Perhaps that might be more solid and to your liking?

JKBart
Yeah, calculating that mathematically is plain retardation given how SW works here. But overall a very nice and interesting work thumb up

Azronger
Originally posted by JKBart
Yeah, calculating that mathematically is plain retardation given how SW works here. But overall a very nice and interesting work thumb up

Thanks. Do you agree with the conclusions presented?

The Ellimist
I don't think it's unreasonable to use math, just that your math was wrong.

Otherwise, good job (though I've only skimmed the rest). thumb up

Azronger
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think it's unreasonable to use math, just that your math was wrong.

Otherwise, good job (though I've only skimmed the rest). thumb up

Read through it more thoroughly then. uhuh

Freedon Nadd
I don't think Bane loved the Rule of Two anymore. We know he went to Prakith to find the secret of eternal life. We also know he got killed and tried to possess Zannah. Something tells me he changed his mind regarding the Rule of Two.

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