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*ILS Version

Who wins

Force sabers all out

What's the starting distance, mind-sets, environment, etc?

Dooku solos.

Malgus is irrelevant

Either Dooku or Galen fodderize him. And I wouldn't say that Malgus is irrelevant.

IMHO: Galen Marek > Dooku > Bane >> Malgus

Should be more like Galen>=<Dooku>>>>>>Bane>Malgus.

Quite frankly, I don't see a reason to place Bane that far ahead of Malgus. Appreciably ahead? Sure, but vastly? No.

bane dies

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Should be more like Galen>=<Dooku>>>>>>Bane>Malgus.

Quite frankly, I don't see a reason to place Bane that far ahead of Malgus. Appreciably ahead? Sure, but vastly? No.

Galen's feats and performance against Sidious put him above Dooku for me. I agree that Dooku is far above Bane, but Bane is almost certainly above Malgus by virtue of his superior feats and holistic scaling; you can put him way beyond his Temple feat in Lehon. Also, Orbalisks.

So you think the temple feat is legit and scaling but you still think Dooku is far beyond Bane? That's pretty nuts, bro.

Malgus is above Dooku though.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Galen's feats and performance against Sidious put him above Dooku for me. I agree that Dooku is far above Bane, but Bane is almost certainly above Malgus by virtue of his superior feats and holistic scaling; you can put him way beyond his Temple feat in Lehon. Also, Orbalisks.
marek was ''no match'' for sidious, tho.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Galen's feats and performance against Sidious put him above Dooku for me. I agree that Dooku is far above Bane, but Bane is almost certainly above Malgus by virtue of his superior feats and holistic scaling; you can put him way beyond his Temple feat in Lehon. Also, Orbalisks.

Temple feat again?

Bane broke the base walls of a temple that was lesser than twenty meters tall( even the stairs were intact), leading to its collapse, with a charged up force blast, that utterly drained his force reserves.

Granted ROT Bane scales above him but the feat itself couldn't be more ordinary.

Dooku is vastly above Bane, obviously, and I have no issues with putting Galen on his level( above or below is up for interpretation, and I haven't gone into that yet). But putting Malgus "far" above Bane is kind of reaching. Though you may not necessarily have made that assertion, because of Orbalisks, but I am just saying.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Bane broke the base walls of a temple that was lesser than twenty meters tall( even the stairs were intact),

Retconned, actually. This is the new temple from Swtor:

https://gamerladyp.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/rakataprime.jpg

Its more like two hundred meters.

Eh, no. If the temple is stated to be 20 m, it "is" 20 m. Not to mention, the descriptions of the area surrounding it and the temple itself are way off. The two are not the same.

This one from the photo looks like the same temple from KoToR, so yeah, the two aren't the same. In fact, the landscape of the two even there are quite different because the that one has a pretty big clearing surrounding it. But this is way, way too different from the one in PoD.

Besides, the one from KoToR and SWTOR are the same right? Even though the landscape is different, they do look the same.

However, the temple from PoD is described as "four sided stone pyramid", so yeah, it is most definitely not the one from KoToR or SWTOR.

Uh, no. It's the same temple. Bane even senses and talks about the barrier from the game. He specifically looked for the Temple of the Ancients because he knew Revan had been there. He also finds Revan's holocron in it when iirc Darth Revan only visited the temple once.

That its called 20 m is irrelevant. I suggest you look up what a retcon is before you continue. And Karpyshan calls it a pyramid because its probably the closest, easiest description for it.

Not at all, lol. Bane searches the mind of a random rancor, and just so happens to find a random temple, which he then proceeds to go to. There is no specific desire to find "Revan's temple". Any references to Revan at all, were "histories" of the Star Forge's destruction and the battle. And right alongside that, there are several passages dedicated to the "Rakata" the ancient dark civilization that "nearly conquered" the galaxy, and who Bane muses "might have been the first servants of the dark side". So, you'll excuse me if I don't subscribe to that theory.

Retcon? Right, right. There is this temple from KoToR, looks pretty big, around 50 m, or probably bigger, like a cylindrical building, but with 4 spires from the sides, and then we have Drew giving the description of a random temple which by the way, is utterly different from the temple in KoToR after that. Then mysteriously, we have, in SWTOR, the exact same temple we saw in KoToR( except the surrounding areas).

So, what you are saying is that a temple structure was proposed in KoToR and it was retconned by PoD, and then, retconned again by SWTOR? Not to mention, that if the description of the structures matched even remotely, then the 20 m thing would be an anomaly, and you would probably be right, but they are so vastly different, that it didn't occur to your brilliant mind that, maybe, just maybe, the temples are different?

As for this:

"And Karpyshan calls it a pyramid because its probably the closest, easiest description for it."

Lmfao. Are you serious?

Karpyshyn calls it a "four sided stone pyramid". In case you need things to be spoonfed to you, he also calls a holocron as a "four sided pyramid".

It's the same temple. The Databank entry on the Star Forge only mentions there being a single temple and the Essential Atlas suggests theres nothing on the planet except the Temple of the Ancients. It even has the same computer in the basement. That Bane specifically references the barrier from the game is the obvious indication its the same temple. And since the Rakata in the game are the only Rakata left on the planet, its impossible for Bane to be referencing a different temple.

As opposed to Bane stumbling upon another random temple with the same barrier and the same computer than just happens to have Revan's holocron in it even though Revan never explored the planet outside of the temple? Yeah, its a retcon or Drew just messed up the description.

Drew is an incompetent author. If there are any inconsistencies in his descriptions thats the reason. The "four sides" are just his way of describing the spires.

It's stated Revan's flagship reduced the temple to rubble, though.

The temple seen in SWTOR and the temple in PoD aren't reconcilable.

Based on *extensive* conversations with Drew, Sasukedc and I figured out the size of the temple, what it looked like, and where they were standing:

https://i.imgur.com/WsUA38L.png

Who wins

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's stated Revan's flagship reduced the temple to rubble, though.

The temple seen in SWTOR and the temple in PoD aren't reconcilable.

No it isn't. It only blew a chunk off one of the spire.

We only see them blow a chunk off one spire, but it is stated Revan laid waste to the temple.

Plus, I recall the Bane novel mentioning the temple has no visible injuries of note.

If you want to argue intent - as in the intent is for the temple to be the Temple of the Ancients - then refer to the intent of Drew having the temple be 20 meters tall.

If you want to argue purely literal, the description of the temple does not remotely match what it seen / occurs in Forged Alliances and cannot be reconciled in good faith.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
We only see them blow a chunk off one spire, but it is stated Revan laid waste to the temple.

Plus, I recall the Bane novel mentioning the temple has no visible injuries of note.

Yeah, which doesn't mean he destroyed it. He fired upon it for a bit but clearly stopped after the players escape.

The book was written before the game, obviously.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If you want to argue intent - as in the intent is for the temple to be the Temple of the Ancients - then refer to the intent of Drew having the temple be 20 meters tall.

If you want to argue purely literal, the description of the temple does not remotely match what it seen / occurs in Forged Alliances and cannot be reconciled in good faith.

If its the same temple then it was retconned into being larger. That's just a fact.

Hence why its a retcon. That's how these things work. I already pointed out the reasons it has to be the same temple. That Drew is so incompetent he couldn't be bothered to google what it looked like isn't my fault.

The tomb of Freedon Nadd and the Valley of the Dark Lords are both stated to have unnaturally transformed over eons. This may be the case here, given Lehon is a dark side nexus.

Ant, if you talked to Drew about it, did you not think to just ask him if it was the same temple?

Originally posted by carthage
Who wins You need to respond to my original post to get an answer.

Both Marek and Malgus have chances of defeating him outright, Dooku at least gives him a good fight. Together they wreck him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Retconned, actually. This is the new temple from Swtor:

https://gamerladyp.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/rakataprime.jpg

Its more like two hundred meters.
Citation needed.

LordofLight and Ant summed it up well.

Just a question. If the temple has been retconned, how the events that happened inside the temple prior to the retcon aren't retconned as well, considering the description of what happened in the temple is complete innacurate in relation to the new source?

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's the same temple. The Databank entry on the Star Forge only mentions there being a single temple and the Essential Atlas suggests theres nothing on the planet except the Temple of the Ancients. It even has the same computer in the basement. That Bane specifically references the barrier from the game is the obvious indication its the same temple. And since the Rakata in the game are the only Rakata left on the planet, its impossible for Bane to be referencing a different temple.

As opposed to Bane stumbling upon another random temple with the same barrier and the same computer than just happens to have Revan's holocron in it even though Revan never explored the planet outside of the temple? Yeah, its a retcon or Drew just messed up the description.

Drew is an incompetent author. If there are any inconsistencies in his descriptions thats the reason. The "four sides" are just his way of describing the spires.

Right, so you are suggesting that the Rakata "homeworld" had no buildings of construction aside from a singular temple?

Yeah, big claim. I am going to need some pretty huge evidence here.

Even if that is true, none of what you said in the first paragraph is irreconcilable with Bane's temple being 20 m tall and completely different. You do realize that the Rakata might just have rebuilt the temple after Revan's flagship had "reduced it to dust". You do realize that in the nearly 3000 year history between SWTOR and Bane's time, the area around the temple and the temple itself could have changed entirely?

"Drew is an incompetent author", I mean seriously? Is that your justification for Drew vastly reducing the size of the temple, completely changing the description of the temple's exteriors, completely changing the overall structure of the temple, despite having worked on creating the game, that has a vastly different temple to the one written?

Yeah, I am calling complete BS on that claim. He'd not only have to be blind, but mentally retarded to mess up the description that bad. And I am not buying that equally ridiculous notion that there was a retcon from KoToR to PoD, and then there was a retcon again from PoD to SWTOR, instead of you know, given that the temple is thousands of years into the future, the vastly more likely possibility that it is a reconstruction, or just a different temple.

"The "four sides" are just his way of describing the spires."

Apparently, even holocrons are like little cylindrical objects with 4 spires attached to it. It would have taken him literally three more words to describe the structure perfectly-"a huge cylindrical building with 4 spires". So yeah, I am again calling complete BS on this one.

There are other buildings, at least two, but only one temple.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Right, so you are suggesting that the Rakata "homeworld" had no buildings of construction aside from a singular temple?

Yeah, big claim. I am going to need some pretty huge evidence here.

Even if that is true, none of what you said in the first paragraph is irreconcilable with Bane's temple being 20 m tall and completely different. You do realize that the Rakata might just have rebuilt the temple after Revan's flagship had "reduced it to dust". You do realize that in the nearly 3000 year history between SWTOR and Bane's time, the area around the temple and the temple itself could have changed entirely?

"Drew is an incompetent author", I mean seriously? Is that your justification for Drew vastly reducing the size of the temple, completely changing the description of the temple's exteriors, completely changing the overall structure of the temple, despite having worked on creating the game, that has a vastly different temple to the one written?

Yeah, I am calling complete BS on that claim. He'd not only have to be blind, but mentally retarded to mess up the description that bad. And I am not buying that equally ridiculous notion that there was a retcon from KoToR to PoD, and then there was a retcon again from PoD to SWTOR, instead of you know, given that the temple is thousands of years into the future, the vastly more likely possibility that it is a reconstruction, or just a different temple.

"The "four sides" are just his way of describing the spires."

Apparently, even holocrons are like little cylindrical objects with 4 spires attached to it. It would have taken him literally three more words to describe the structure perfectly-"a huge cylindrical building with 4 spires". So yeah, I am again calling complete BS on this one.

None others that survived into the modern era, no. I mean, theres the settlement of the Rakatan survivors I suppose but that was likely built by them. There's no other sign of a surviving structure. The Databank says that the Rakata built "a temple" on Lehon and Essential Atlas says that after Revan looted the temple there was barely anything else of worth on the planet.

You haven't responded to the fact that Revan wouldn't have had the opportunity to hide the holocron anywhere but in the temple of the ancients. Nor that Bane could still feel the protections on the temple, which wouldn't be there if it had been rebuilt. Furthermore, of course the Rakata couldn't have rebuilt the temple. After Kotor there were barely any survivors and they went extinct in a few generations due to their inviable gene pool. Theres no way there were enough to build a temple after Swtor. Also don't quote Ant as if he was a source, nowhere does it say it was reduced to dust. The protections and the computer from the game prove it was intended to be the same temple.

I mean, yes? Because he really is that bad. Its not as if two sources being inconsistent is a new thing. Nihilus' drain looks nothing like was it does between Kotor II and Unseen, Unheard, despite Avellone writing both. And Drew was just the writer, he didn't design the temple or anything. And tbh its not actually that much bigger than 20 meters tall in the first game.

This is a man who wrote an entire chapter for Revan and forgot to put it in the book. Don't underestimate how easily he can overlook something you'd think would be simple. If someone were to ask Drew he'd likely say its intended to be the same temple. There are numerous clear indications that that's the intent. You can think its stupid if you want but its still the case.