Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Jiren, every single time.

As of right now...undecided. But I'm feeling Jiren.

Beerus.

There's no proof someone on Goku's level can even challenge him. While Jiren is at least being pressed enough to worry.

In fact, Beerus casually beat limit breaker Vegeta in the manga.

If he puts up any sort of fight at all against Jiren, this proves Beerus >.

Originally posted by cdtm
In fact, Beerus casually beat limit breaker Vegeta in the manga. That was pre-ToP Vegeta right after he(like Goku) 'mastered' SSB... But MSSB is a wholly different form/power than Vegeta's current ASSB. In fact, ASSB is AT LEAST 20x MSSB, given that Vegeta is currently no less than equal to MSSB Goku /w/ KKx20.


Anywho... As of right NOW, there is no concrete evidence that puts Jiren above Beerus, tbh. We *should* know for sure where Jiren stands relative to the Hakaishin once he and MUI Goku fight, however.

I predict MSSJB will be the Super Kaioken and Limit Breaker Vegeta of the manga.

The point of the anime cheese is to get Goku and Vegeta on the same level. The manga merely skipped the build up and went right to equalizing them.

I don't expect there to be any more powerups until UI.

I completely agree. They might get stronger during the ToP but MSSJ definitely seems to be the equivalent of ASSJB and KKx20.

Jiren.

Originally posted by cdtm
I predict MSSJB will be the Super Kaioken and Limit Breaker Vegeta of the manga.

The point of the anime cheese is to get Goku and Vegeta on the same level. The manga merely skipped the build up and went right to equalizing them.

I don't expect there to be any more powerups until UI.

Originally posted by bbrem123
I completely agree. They might get stronger during the ToP but MSSJ definitely seems to be the equivalent of ASSJB and KKx20.



That said, we now have a chance to directly compare Beerus and Jiren in the manga by seeing how the latter handles MSSJB.

I thought Toppo already manhandled Mastered Blue?

Originally posted by carver9
I thought Toppo already manhandled Mastered Blue? Goku was pretty much handling Toppo as Super Saiyan God so he didn't mandhandle Blue. Goku let his guard down thinking he could win easy and then was hit unexpectedly and kicked out of the ring.

In the manga that kick knocked the SSJB out of Goku though, it was a hell of a shot.

It was in the family jewels lol.

Also Toppo said he doesnt think he could not have defeat Goku if he didn't counter that attack. Goku was just careless and let his guard down.

Goku also wasn't in top form; this was literally hours after he was wounded by a handgun.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ


That said, we now have a chance to directly compare Beerus and Jiren in the manga by seeing how the latter handles MSSJB. The forms are definitely NOT the same.

Originally posted by carver9
Jiren, every single time.

How exactly does he beat Beerus who is the most powerful God of Destruction?

Originally posted by Blindside12
How exactly does he beat Beerus who is the most powerful God of Destruction?

Don't take Crazy Carv seriously, almost every post from him is a troll.

I suspect there's a reason they have deliberately avoided making any direct statements about how Jiren compares to Beerus specifically.

Eh, SSG could pretty easily dodge attacks from Rose, which is stronger than SSB.

He was doing just fine against Toppo is what I meant as ssg. And Toppo basically even admits it's cause Goku let his guard down that Goku lost. There isn't anything suggesting Toppo was holding back. Goku basically went for a huge punch to just knock Toppo off thinking nothing of defense and was caught off guard. And unlike the anime, Goku paid the price for letting his guard down against a skilled warrior.

What is MSSJB?

"Mastered Super Saiyan Blue."

In the manga, from the Revival of F arc to the Future Trunks arc, SSB was portrayed a flawed transformation; the transition itself was explosive and heavily draining, and once activated, the form rapidly leaked a significant fraction of the energy it produced. However, currently, Goku and Vegeta seem to have trained to ease into the initial transformation, and now properly bottle their ki to utilize their full strength for extended periods of time (although this pent up energy still puts a strain on their bodies).

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I suspect there's a reason they have deliberately avoided making any direct statements about how Jiren compares to Beerus specifically.

I agree. It's almost too blatant now that there's been no comment by Beerus or Whis on how Jiren stacks against Beerus.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Eh, SSG could pretty easily dodge attacks from Rose, which is stronger than SSB.

Scans?

Vegeta was able to get the upper hand on Black by fighting in SSG and only powering up to Blue at the moment of attack. Do you really need me to look for panels of him specifically dodging attacks to understand the implications of that?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vegeta was able to get the upper hand on Black by fighting in SSG and only powering up to Blue at the moment of attack. Do you really need me to look for panels of him specifically dodging attacks to understand the implications of that?

Here's the entire scene:
https://i.imgur.com/4xqxpcA.png
https://i.imgur.com/9PZ6UIZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/XGCdHrV.png
https://i.imgur.com/8hjo2MB.png
https://i.imgur.com/fhFkCnk.png
https://i.imgur.com/tmS50r1.png
https://i.imgur.com/D9CIwvT.png
https://i.imgur.com/IA9NWX3.png
https://i.imgur.com/r6ul3xO.png
https://i.imgur.com/56kHJ0S.png
https://i.imgur.com/DsCI1Xr.png


...But this page sums it up nicely:
http://i.imgur.com/56kHJ0Sl.png

Originally posted by Damborgson
I agree. It's almost too blatant now that there's been no comment by Beerus or Whis on how Jiren stacks against Beerus.

SSGod Goku fought on par with Beerus. Why is it hard to assume Goku and Jiren have surpassed Beerus?

Originally posted by Blindside12
SSGod Goku fought on par with Beerus. Why is it hard to assume Goku and Jiren have surpassed Beerus? Because Beerus' strength has been repeatedly subjected to retcons as we see from Golden Frieza being nothing to Beerus despite supposedly stalemating a far weaker Goku months earlier.

Originally posted by Blindside12
SSGod Goku fought on par with Beerus. Except we now know that Beerus was holding back immensely against n00b SSG Goku.

We know this because Beerus casually one-shot-ragdolled MSSB Vegeta when he got a little irritated:
https://i.imgur.com/9snd40r.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2aPoa4F.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wNRMm7W.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UqI0qee.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/C3geaI8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vkgY5vP.jpg
Vegeta: "I'm no match for him AT ALL."

ie. Beerus >>>>> MSSB >> SSB >>> full-power SSG > n00b SSG.


And in the manga, Goku was awestruck by the power of Beerus and the other Hakaishin when he watched them spar in the Zen Exhibition Match... And that was a Goku who could use MSSB /w/ KKx20.

In fact, it took SSB Vegito-level power before anyone speculated that Beerus may have been surpassed:
https://i.imgur.com/QRrVq3Z.jpg

...But then you must ask: has Kaioshin even sensed Beerus at *full* power? That's very doubtful, imo, which means it's possible that he was comparing Vegito to a *suppressed* Beerus. /shrug

Still calling Beerus.

Surpassing god power seemed to take a serious toll on the body. When Freeza and an android is rag dolling you..

Originally posted by cdtm
Still calling Beerus.

Surpassing god power seemed to take a serious toll on the body. When Freeza and an android is rag dolling you..

No, Jiren was exhausted not because he surpassed the tier of the GoDs, but because he got his ass kicked by MUI Goku, who would do the same to Beerus.

Mad 100% Jiren could have sustained his form just fine. Too bad for him that he had to face MUI Goku, who in just 30 seconds ruined his day.

On the contrary, indeed, the fact that Jiren was still capable to fight 3 vs 1 after the serious beating he received from MUI Goku is testamentet to his enormous strength and stamina.

It's all about Destruction.

Beerus should be capable of so much more then Toppo showed.

And besides, he and his brother casually threatened the universe, just by locking up. Goku only threatened it by clashing hands with Beerus.

A true GoD is the common denominator here.

Originally posted by cdtm
It's all about Destruction.
Goku only threatened it by clashing hands with Beerus.

Given the ridicolous powerscaling of DBS, there's probably almost more difference in power between Limit breaker Jiren (let's call him like this) and BoG SSG Goku than the one there was between Raditz and Boo saga characters.

And the sad (or funny, it depends on which side you are) part is that I'm not even joking.

So, bringing in BoG SSG in this discussion doesn't actually change anything regarding Jiren vs Beerus.

It's a feat for Beerus.

Every time a universe was said to be threatened sans Zeno, Beerus was involved.

At this point I think a truly 'full power' Jiren can edge Beerus out, tbh. Not easily at all, mind you, but I think he could win nonetheless.

Of course, this is all subject to change depending on how the manga handles him. Jiren might be portrayed as decidedly below, equal to, or well above Beerus when all is said an done... Only time will tell.

Jiren did even contend with MUI Goku and actually beat him (until MUI Goku got another power boost, then it was over). I think Beerus is without a doubt more powerful than episode 130 Jiren and he has UI himself. I think Beerus wins against MUI Goku, let alone Jiren.

But Galan said it best:

Originally posted by Galan007
Of course, this is all subject to change depending on how the manga handles him. Jiren might be portrayed as decidedly below, equal to, or well above Beerus when all is said an done... Only time will tell.

I hope they will make it clear and I hope Beerus is above him, if not, well then no problem, as long they make it clear.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Personally, I think episode 130 Jiren was a power-up moreso than his "true" full power, hence why I think Jiren is above Beerus.

Plus he started to do extremely well against MUI before MUI powered up. See, I don't.

I mentioned this in another thread, but aside from the fact that Jiren was initially hyped as a being that not even Belmond could defeat(suggesting he was already > Hakaishin-level), the implication to me is that getting pummeled by MUI Goku was just the catalyst that finally made Jiren use *all* of his power. Before that, he wasn't using his 'full' power, because he simply didn't need to -- not even omen-UI Goku(stage 3) came close to requiring Jiren's 'full' power.

Aside from that, Khai and Belmond didn't seem at all surprised by Jiren's 'full' power/aura when he finally revealed it. Those two are HUGE Jiren fangirls(they've bragged about his "UNLIMITED POWA!!!" in nearly every episode), so if Jiren had reached some entirely new and unknown pinnacle of power that Khai/Belmond had never seen before, they would have presumably said *something* to that effect... But they didn't. There's also the fact that the previews/solicits for ep.130 simply referred to it as Jiren "finally getting serious" and using his "full power". /shrug

Also, MUI was regarded(by everyone) as a power "beyond the Gods"... So it makes sense for it to take *that* level of power to defeat Jiren, given that he was slightly beyond the Gods himself(which also explains why he was able to contend with MUI initially.)


But again: hopefully the manga will provide some clarification one way or the other, because this is one plot-point I would like to be definitively answered.

Remember, it was never said Jiren can beat a god of destruction.

It was specifically worded that he is someone a god of destruction cannot defeat.

Very, very different matter to defeat someone, and be unable to be defeated by someone.

That's why I say Goku won't beat Beerus either.. Beerus at least has the defensive portion of UI. But without the time limit that Goku has. So assuming neither can land a decisive attack on the other, which is kind of the point of UI, then in the end Goku should build up damage to his body simply maintaining the form, while Beerus will not.


In the case of Jiren, he has no time limit, and is very, very close to UI level. Assuming all gods of destruction have UI phase one, it makes sense that they could go at it all day without a winner..

Originally posted by cdtm
Remember, it was never said Jiren can beat a god of destruction.

It was specifically worded that he is someone a god of destruction cannot defeat.

Very, very different matter to defeat someone, and be unable to be defeated by someone. https://i.imgur.com/P3FcEvc.jpg

That doesn't exactly disprove what I was saying.

Plus, I was referencing the anime.

The manga confirms Jiren > Belmond. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by Inedian
Jiren did even contend with MUI Goku and actually beat him (until MUI Goku got another power boost, then it was over). I think Beerus is without a doubt more powerful than episode 130 Jiren and he has UI himself. I think Beerus wins against MUI Goku, let alone Jiren.

But Galan said it best:



I hope they will make it clear and I hope Beerus is above him, if not, well then no problem, as long they make it clear.

I need someone to help me understand. What is it (in the anime) that Beerus did to make people believe he is above or on Jiren and UI Goku level?