Coincidental reasons why the PT brigade is so strong

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The Ellimist
I'm not making direct arguments in support of any era's characters, nor am I analyzing forum social dynamics (which also play a huge role), but rather I'm talking about ways that Legends has been configured which favors the later eras for perhaps unintended reasons. This, again, isn't a direct argument for or against the arguments' legitimacy.

Backwards compatible accolades: An accolade calling Sidious the most powerful Sith of all time can transfer backwards, while one saying that about Vitiate wouldn't apply forwards to Sidious unless if it actually references the future, which almost never happens.

More Jedi / Sith parity: Whereas ancient-era stories often focus on an ancient sith who is so far beyond everyone else at the time, the PT-era features Sidious, who has multiple "most powerful Sith ever" accolades but also has several competitors such as Yoda and Anakin. This drags up the Jedi and Sith around Sidious whereas someone like Exar Kun is weaker than Sidious and yet has less competition, perhaps because the story is centered around him whereas the film-era isn't just about Palpatine.

More sources + a forum preference for high-balling: Modern eras have a lot more published material, which means that you'd expect to get more high-end feats for characters. You might expect more low-end ones as well, but the forum tends to focus on the higher-end ones, which I think is justifiable for reasons I won't get into here.

More text-based sources + better prose writers: Most of the best feats in Legends come from novels and sourcebooks where demonstrations of power that would be difficult to sell visually like singularity manipulation can be acceptably described. The PT-era has more of these, along with better prose writers like Stover and Luceno.

Reverse scaling from Sidious vs. Valkorion: since many like myself put Palpatine above Valkorion, we must also put people like Exar Kun far lower relative to Sidious than what the forum used to generally do.

Thoughts?

Emperordmb
Also the fact that virtually every dipshit with a name is "one of teh bestest duelists evah"

ares834
Having more sources helps immensely.

Freedon Nadd
If Stover wrote Darth Nihilus. I'd read it.

Stigma
@ All good points, Ell.

Bonus reason: We are cooler smile

Freedon Nadd
Lol

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by ares834
Having more sources helps immensely.
Mostly this. Though I find it funny how the very idea of a "PT Brigade" within itself is beyond stupid. People who argue solely for a placement in a timeline, which honestly is what most of this amounts to in the end, are just are retarded as the SWTORtards they so strongly despise. Accolades are obviously only useful when they agree with you, in that case.

Stigma
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Lol
smile

JMANGO
This is a very good thread.

Something I've thought about personally but perhaps didn't have the testicular fortitude to articulate in front of a forum of dissenting readers. From an in universe perspective, the PT era Jedi (with exception to Anakin) being somehow the strongest, fails on every level considering :

- The severe recruitment restrictions post-russan reformation

- The interbreeding of Jedi being ruled against

- The overall number of Jedi having "dwindled" (probably because of the two reasons above) meaning you're less likely to find outliers

- The lack of combative focus

- The fact that battlefield experience tends to spike potential growth better than training in a temple does, for reference : Obi Wan saw monumental gains in the three year period of the Clone Wars comparative to the ten year gap in between ATOC and TPM

I have to some how trust that those claiming the PT era to be the combative prime of Jedi, are taking factors like the above into consideration. Even when many of the sources claiming that the Movie era Jedi as a collective, or an individual from that time is "the best in history" aren't considering older time lines within the EU, such as:

- George Lucas (Who's now non-canon opinion was personally ignorant of the EU)

- The Mysteries of Jedi ( a childrens book written soley about the PT)

- Star Wars Fact File 11 (the 2002 publication that called Mace and Yoda the most powerful Jedi to walk the temple)

- The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48 (another source book that wrote soley about movie era content, and claimed Dooku was only eclipsed by Yoda and Mace in skill)

This is why i think source book accolades in particular are asinine and cheapen debate.

MythLord
Also, better arguments, Ell.

JMANGO
Originally posted by MythLord
Also, easier to make arguments, Ell.

fixed.

Freedon Nadd
In the Old Republic, war was a constant.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
In the Old Republic, war was a constant.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Nephthys
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Quoting someone or you wrote that yourself?

Nephthys
Warhammer 40k.

Unbowed
The Chosen One bullshit aside, it doesn't make sense that the PT Jedi would be the strongest since, in addition to the factors JMANGO mentioned, it only had about a millennium to rebuild, and Jedi of Darth Bane's time were a pitiful lot.

Logically the Order should be at its strongest during Exar Kun's time, considering it had more than 20000 years of straight, uninterrupted growth and an infallible record of victory against the Dark side.

They won against the Rakatan Infinte Empire(when they were still the Je'daii), they won in the ensuing "Force Wars" on Tython, they won against Xendor, they won the Hundred Year Darkness against Ajunta Pall& co, they won the Great Hyperspace War, and eventually they beat Exar Kun.

It's only after Exar Kun was defeated that the Order started weakening and being periodically pushed to the edge of extinction by the Sith.

I see no reason why Yoda or Mace or anyone other than Anakin should have an inherently stronger potential than say, Odan-Urr or Nomi Sunrider, much less access to more wisdom and better teachings.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MythLord
Also, better arguments, Ell.

thumb up

And it makes thematic sense. We're told the time frame of the PT/OT is the most important time frame in the history of the Jedi and the galaxy. The Chosen One prophecy, the Mortis Anchorites, Sidious, the highest concentration of top tier badasses in the entire continuity, etc.

No one cares about the other shit, which are relative footnotes of minor importance.

FreshestSlice
Thematic sense only really applies to the Sith, tbh. Maybe Anakin. Not so much the rest.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Thematic sense only really applies to the Sith, tbh. Maybe Anakin. Not so much the rest.

Nah. So one of the ideas in the prequels is that the Jedi have "strayed" from their true ideals by being so involved and invested in warfare. Not only would them being at their peak martially help justify how Sidious was able to defeat them (through strategy and deception rather than morons like Failkorion and Exar Kun), it also reinforces that dramatic irony. And, in terms of bonus, highlights how Luke was able to succeed where his predecessors failed and instigated the ultimate destruction of the Sith by tossing his weapon aside.

FreshestSlice
Pretty sure it's about the Jedi straying from their way by becoming involved in politics as wella s completely beholden to the Senate. The problem with that reasoning is that the Jedi are less involved with warfare than they've ever been at this point, aside from conscripting Jedi Padawans and making them field commanders. While I'd agree that in the terms of what Lucas wanted, this may be true, although that wouldn't make sense given Luke is a thing, but it most certainly doesn't really make sense in terms of the greater EU/Legends.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Pretty sure it's about the Jedi straying from their way by becoming involved in politics as wella s completely beholden to the Senate.

Nah, that wouldn't make sense: There were Jedi Supreme Chancellors in the past.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The problem with that reasoning is that the Jedi are less involved with warfare than they've ever been at this point, aside from conscripting Jedi Padawans and making them field commanders.

They're involved with the Clone Wars as much as they were involved in any other war in the past. The idea is that Yoda's paradigm involved teaching the Jedi to fight and approach conflict the way they did "during the last war" (to quote the ROTS novel).

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
While I'd agree that in the terms of what Lucas wanted, this may be true, although that wouldn't make sense given Luke is a thing, but it most certainly doesn't really make sense in terms of the greater EU/Legends.

Given Luke is a thing?

Nah, it makes tons of sense thematically. The prequels are a tragedy that show the Jedi at their height but simultaneously primed for a fall. That is only explained if the Jedi are truly at the height of their martial powers... but they're targeted by an enemy who won't fight them the way his predecessors did and who uses the very thing they've embraced so utterly (warfare) against them. It's beautifully espoused in the Revenge of the Sith novel.

Freedon Nadd
War wasn't a constant during the PT times. Not on the same scale of TOR era.

Unbowed
IIRC the opening of Mace's novel shows him with PTSD after the Battle of Genosis. laughing out loud

How can the PT Jedi be at the top of their game when all they've done is fight droids for 3 years? In TPM both Qui-Gon and the Council are shaken up because of one duel with one Dark Sider.

Is that what passes for battle hardened?

Let them try a century of warfare against a legion of Dark Jedi and their alchemical horrors like the the Jedi of Ajunta Pall's time. If fighting droids pushes the PT Jedi to their limits, how would they fare in an internal schism that pits friend against friend and student against master the way Revan and Malak did?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Unbowed
IIRC the opening of Mace's novel shows him with PTSD after the Battle of Genosis. laughing out loud

How can the PT Jedi be at the top of their game when all they've done is fight droids for 3 years? In TPM both Qui-Gon and the Council are shaken up because of one duel with one Dark Sider.

Is that what passes for battle hardened?

Let them try a century of warfare against a legion of Dark Jedi and their alchemical horrors like the the Jedi of Ajunta Pall's time. If fighting droids pushes the PT Jedi to their limits, how would they fare in an internal schism that pits friend against friend and student against master the way Revan and Malak did?

You really just can't quit me, can you?

Unbowed
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You really just can't quit me, can you?
Could you just go somewhere to indulge your fentanyl addiction and die please? Thanks. wink

JMANGO
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. So one of the ideas in the prequels is that the Jedi have "strayed" from their true ideals by being so involved and invested in warfare.

Nah, They are no more invested in warfare than many other timelines before them; for example the TOTJ. In fact, they are less so. That's why the "diplomats form" is the standard model for lightsaber wielding jedi in the PT era and why there are less weapons masters in general.



Hold on. Are you seriously suggesting the PT era jedi are the best of all time because Sidious didn't choose to personally challenge them?



Nah, it represents his own rejection of the dark side after remembering what it did to his father. This comparison fails when you also consider that Luke saw the PT Jedi as being too weak to face a purge like Vader's, and how he wouldn't make the same mistake with his own tribe of initiates :

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Unbowed
Could you just go somewhere to indulge your fentanyl addiction and die please? Thanks. wink

If I did, how long would it be before you try to desperately claw your way into my grave just to be with me? mmm

The Ellimist
If we agree that thematically Sidious is the most powerful Sith, then at least the upper end of the PT Jedi must be the best, because they have multiple people who can challenge Sidious while back in the ancient eras the Jedi would have no Jedi to match Sith like Exar Kun.

Like seriously which era of Jedi is supposed to match Yoda, Anakin, Mace and Obi Wan again?

Unbowed
Originally posted by The_Tempest
If I did, how long would it be before you try to desperately claw your way into my grave just to be with me? mmm
If you really want to trade barbs, the least you could do is come up with your own shtick.

The "you're stalking me" narrative was funny when I used it against you because it was halfway true. Trying to turn it back against me is just lazy and cheap.

Why don't you take a day or two to regroup and come up with something fresh. You're better than this. wink

JMANGO
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If we agree that thematically Sidious is the most powerful Sith, then at least the upper end of the PT Jedi must be the best, because they have multiple people who can challenge Sidious while back in the ancient eras the Jedi would have no Jedi to match Sith like Exar Kun.

Like seriously which era of Jedi is supposed to match Yoda, Anakin, Mace and Obi Wan again?

I agree that Sidious is the most powerful sith, and that Yoda would be, coincidentally, the most powerful Jedi.

Anakin is a clear outlier, for reasons too obvious to state

Mace Windu might also be another outlier because of Vaapad's unique capability to match a dark side user with their own power.

Obi Wan on the other hand, nah.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by JMANGO
Nah, They are no more invested in warfare than many other timelines before them; for example the TOTJ. In fact, they are less so. That's why the "diplomats form" is the standard model for lightsaber wielding jedi in the PT era and why there are less weapons masters in general.

This is a non-sequitur. I said it makes more thematic sense that the Jedi of the prequels represent the iteration of the order at its peak martially, given the broader narrative constructs at play. I didn't say that it's a notion reconciled with all EU fluff, pertaining to which lightsaber form was most prevalent among their duelists.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Hold on. Are you seriously suggesting the PT era jedi are the best of all time because Sidious didn't choose to personally challenge them?

No, I'm saying that the Jedi of the prequels being at their peak martially would help provide additional context as to why he didn't try to challenge them by force outright or through conquest, even with the Kaminoan clones and droid armies at his beck and call.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Nah, it represents his own rejection of the dark side after remembering what it did to his father.

That's part of it. It also is what enables him to defeat the Emperor: by not fighting, a sentiment echoed by multiple Star Wars authorities including Pablo Hidalgo. In doing so, he succeeded where the Jedi of old failed.

Originally posted by JMANGO
This comparison fails when you also consider that Luke saw the PT Jedi as being too weak to face a purge like Vader's, and how he wouldn't make the same mistake with his own tribe of initiates :

Actually, Luke saw the Jedi of the prequels as being the order at its height, according to The Jedi Path.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Unbowed
If you really want to trade barbs, the least you could do is come up with your own shtick.

The "you're stalking me" narrative was funny when I used it against you because it was halfway true. Trying to turn it back against me is just lazy and cheap.

Why don't you take a day or two to regroup and come up with something fresh. You're better than this. wink

If only because my absence, even only for a day or two, would induce in you an acute case of separation anxiety. You shouldn't take such risks with your own health.

The "shtick" was funny because interactions with me have made you hilariously embittered about and laser-focused on all things Sheev. You've already admitted that Palpatine and me are the only reasons you even deign to log in. laughing out loud

Freedon Nadd
And facts show that Sidious isn't the strongest Sith. Period.

SunRazer
I know you're trying to give us all a stroke, but with that level of brain blockage it seems like you're a lot closer to one than any of us.

Unbowed
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If we agree that thematically Sidious is the most powerful Sith
Why would we agree to that?

The idea that Sidious was the strongest Sith or the Jedi were at their strongest was always harebrained. It was never directly stated or even implied in the movies because it was not relevant. It was not required. Not even in the PT, much less the OT.

The films were always a self-contained story, the classic Hero's Journey, it didn't matter if Sidious was the strongest or weakest Sith because he was the only Sith around. It didn't affect the story in any way. The Emperor was just the Emperor. The villain. Who cares that there was a stronger villain thousands of years ago? It doesn't make the movies better or worse.

The only reason Sidious and the PT got slapped with the "strongest" label was because of insecurity regarding the popularity of the EU works like the TOTJ series or the KOTOR games.

Same with the "Chosen One" business. Anakin could have been a regular prodigy and the story would have worked just the same. A tragedy is a tragedy because the hero is corrupted by his own flaws. Anakin could have been just an exemplary knight and it would have sufficed. It was never implied in the OT that he was some mystical "Chosen One".

It just reeks of insecurity, a cheap way to keep the PT relevant. It sure as shit didn't help the quality of the movies.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, that wouldn't make sense: There were Jedi Supreme Chancellors in the past.

Not familiar. Did this involve the Order as a whole? Honestly, trying to show fault in the Jedi seems like the weaker part of anything involving the PT.

Except you had Jedi literally being lords and commanding entire sectors of the galaxy during, say, Ruusan. I don't think they're that involved during the Clone Wars.

Luke's incredibly involved in the Rebellion, so much so that the war effort might as well be designed around him, and from Yoda and Obi-Wan's standpoint, it is. Not sure how this is better than the PT,


True as that might be, the Jedi are always involved in wars like this, some less so, some more so, but always fighting wars. It's a point that is weakened by the EU as a whole, and it's not like Canon is shying away from it given how they perceive Malachor.

Azronger
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, Luke saw the Jedi of the prequels as being the order at its height, according to The Jedi Path.

He said that in Book of the Sith, but not in The Jedi Path as far as I'm aware.

Just a slight correction; continue with your lecturing of these infidels, Master.

JMANGO
Nah, The PT order momentarily "straying from their ideals" doesn't preclude the notion that there were other points in the 25000 years of jedi history that it also happened. Nor does it mean that they're at their "peak". For example, the TOTJ Jedi concern themselves with warfare to a much greater extent and would have eliminated tribes and conglomerates that had been allowed to exist just before and during the clone wars, such as the nightsisters.



The problem is that your argument has to involve the EU if you want to place the PT era over other timelines that are detailed only in the EU. Calling it "fluff" just because it doesn't fit with the thematic narrative of Star Wars according to the Tempest, doesn't help your case.



https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-20-2017/CjWWCT.gif

When trying to analyse the martial prowess of the order as a whole, you have to consider the martial abilties of the order. That of course includes the choice of lightsaber form favoured amongst their duelists. You also have to remember that forms don't just emanate a set of striking patterns, but also represent the philosophies of the jedi wielding them. So when the "diplomat form" is the most studied style in the modern era, it contradicts the notion that they were the more concerned with warfare than any other time line of Jedi.



Nah, he doesn't choose a direct confrontation with the jedi because he needed to frame them as the galactic villains. Which would prevent them from gaining favour with the greater population and reforming, as they have done in the past. I hope you aren't suggesting that Palpatine couldn't have crushed the jedi with his armies, given that a sample selection of 200 jedi, were curb-stomped by a much smaller percentage of the CIS army on Geonosis. Now imagine what would have happened had the clone troopers who entered the fray later on, started firing on the Jedi too.



It's not just "part of it", it's the defining theme of the scene. Not fighting the emperor is a plot vehicle that enables Vader to redeem himself, by physically throwing the emperor into a reactor shaft (i.e.:fighting him)



Super Coolstorybro. The personal and non-canonical opinion of Pablo Hidlago, who was nine years old during the release of Return of the Jedi can not accurately relay the authorial intent of the scene.



The height of their marital prowess? Got a quote?

Regardless such a quote doesn't refute the idea that fighting the sith with martial training and abilties was the correct course of action to prevent a purge according to Luke, as stated by himself in dark apprentice. Which kind of shits on your original point that the Jedi failed because their fighting prowess was unequaled.

By the way, Luke may not have been the best authority on which time period of Jedi was "teh strongest" considering the vast amounts of information lost in the purge. However, he is the best authority when it comes to his own philosophy in dealing with adversaries : which is to beat them up with his lightsaber.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. So one of the ideas in the prequels is that the Jedi have "strayed" from their true ideals by being so involved and invested in warfare. Not only would them being at their peak martially help justify how Sidious was able to defeat them (through strategy and deception rather than morons like Failkorion and Exar Kun), it also reinforces that dramatic irony. And, in terms of bonus, highlights how Luke was able to succeed where his predecessors failed and instigated the ultimate destruction of the Sith by tossing his weapon aside.


thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not familiar. Did this involve the Order as a whole?

Presumably having a member of the order legally running the galactic government would be indicative of greater involvement in galactic politics.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Honestly, trying to show fault in the Jedi seems like the weaker part of anything involving the PT.

How so?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except you had Jedi literally being lords and commanding entire sectors of the galaxy during, say, Ruusan. I don't think they're that involved during the Clone Wars.

Political influence != military involvement. With the exception of the Chancellor, the Jedi had greater legal authority over the war effort during the Clone Wars than anybody.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Luke's incredibly involved in the Rebellion, so much so that the war effort might as well be designed around him, and from Yoda and Obi-Wan's standpoint, it is. Not sure how this is better than the PT,

Well sure, but his narrative arc culminates with the decision to throw down his weapon. Up til that point, Luke's militant attitude was commensurate with his skirting the dark side.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
True as that might be, the Jedi are always involved in wars like this, some less so, some more so, but always fighting wars. It's a point that is weakened by the EU as a whole, and it's not like Canon is shying away from it given how they perceive Malachor.

Oh, I'm not saying that - in Legends or canon - it's something exclusive to the prequel Jedi order. I'm saying that it makes thematic sense for the prequel Jedi to be the distillation of that, which is probably why we're told by so many authorities that the Jedi represent the order at the height of their martial powers.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Azronger
He said that in Book of the Sith, but not in The Jedi Path as far as I'm aware.

Just a slight correction; continue with your lecturing of these infidels, Master.

Noted. thumb up

Thanks for the correction.

Azronger
No problem. Always ready to serve thumb up

The_Tempest
Originally posted by JMANGO
Nah, The PT order momentarily "straying from their ideals" doesn't preclude the notion that there were other points in the 25000 years of jedi history that it also happened.

I never said it did.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Nor does it mean that they're at their "peak". For example, the TOTJ Jedi concern themselves with warfare to a much greater extent and would have eliminated tribes and conglomerates that had been allowed to exist just before and during the clone wars, such as the nightsisters.

Citation needed.

Originally posted by JMANGO
The problem is that your argument has to involve the EU if you want to place the PT era over other timelines that are detailed only in the EU.

I said my argument doesn't have to reconcile itself with all the EU fluff, I never said that it didn't have to involve the EU at all. Of course it does.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Calling it "fluff" just because it doesn't fit with the thematic narrative of Star Wars according to the Tempest, doesn't help your case.

Which is ironic, since you're the one in his initial post who dismisses wholesale the accolades that put the PT as the height of Jedi power because it doesn't fit in with your notion of how the EU works. mmm

Originally posted by JMANGO
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-20-2017/CjWWCT.gif

When trying to analyse the martial prowess of the order as a whole, you have to consider the martial abilties of the order. That of course includes the choice of lightsaber form favoured amongst their duelists. You also have to remember that forms don't just emanate a set of striking patterns, but also represent the philosophies of the jedi wielding them. So when the "diplomat form" is the most studied style in the modern era, it contradicts the notion that they were the more concerned with warfare than any other time line of Jedi.

Which is irrelevant, since that same logic would require Dooku - an avowed Makashi duelist - to be a better duelist or more effective warrior than either Windu or Yoda, who are not Makashi practitioners, when we know in fact he's not. Not to mention that this, again, refers back to EU fluff.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Nah, he doesn't choose a direct confrontation with the jedi because he needed to frame them as the galactic villains.

Yes, he's unquestionably wiser and more intelligent than any of his predecessors.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Which would prevent them from gaining favour with the greater population and reforming, as they have done in the past.

Citation needed that widespread appeal with the greater population was the impetus for Jedi reform?

Originally posted by JMANGO
I hope you aren't suggesting that Palpatine couldn't have crushed the jedi with his armies, given that a sample selection of 200 jedi, were curb-stomped by a much smaller percentage of the CIS army on Geonosis. Now imagine what would have happened had the clone troopers who entered the fray later on, started firing on the Jedi too.

I never said nor suggested he couldn't have defeated them outright through force. I'm saying ultimately it's a strategy that has never worked in the past, which is part and parcel of why Palpatine didn't employ it.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/plagueis%20on%20jedi_zpstiduimaa.png

Originally posted by JMANGO
It's not just "part of it", it's the defining theme of the scene. Not fighting the emperor is a plot vehicle that enables Vader to redeem himself, by physically throwing the emperor into a reactor shaft

So... what you're saying is Luke defeats the Emperor by not fighting him. That's almost like it was my point.

Originally posted by JMANGO
(i.e.:fighting him)

It wasn't a fight and Vader died in the attempt. Hope that wasn't a spoiler.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Super Coolstorybro. The personal and non-canonical opinion of Pablo Hidlago, who was nine years old during the release of Return of the Jedi can not accurately relay the authorial intent of the scene.

You're certainly free to disagree with his thoughts on the matter, I just find them more credible than yours since your argument presently lacks evidence to support it.

Originally posted by JMANGO
The height of their marital prowess? Got a quote?

I'll hunt it down.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Regardless such a quote doesn't refute the idea that fighting the sith with martial training and abilties was the correct course of action to prevent a purge according to Luke, as stated by himself in dark apprentice. Which kind of shits on your original point that the Jedi failed because their fighting prowess was unequaled.

The correct course of action to prevent a purge would probably be to not let yourself be put in a position where a purge is likely. Which is one of the elements of the ROTS novel: by fighting at all, the Jedi lost.

Originally posted by JMANGO
By the way, Luke may not have been the best authority on which time period of Jedi was "teh strongest" considering the vast amounts of information lost in the purge.

Hey, you were the one who cited him, I'm just letting you hang yourself with a noose of your own design.

Originally posted by JMANGO
However, he is the best authority when it comes to his own philosophy in dealing with adversaries : which is to beat them up with his lightsaber.

Except the Emperor at Endor, which is the point.

Ultimately, you've done little to undermine my argument, perhaps because you fundamentally misunderstand it. So I'll try to be more clear: given the narrative facts concerning the prequel trilogy, it makes the most thematic sense for the Jedi order to be at the height of their martial prowess during that time because of the very nature of their defeat and the means by which the new Jedi order ultimately triumphs over evil at Endor. I don't claim that because this makes the most thematic sense that it perfectly aligns itself with all aspects of the EU. I'm saying that in spite of the fact that the EU tells us Niman was favored by the prequel Jedi over Makashi, it still makes the most sense.

The Ellimist

The_Tempest
@Fresh, I responded to you on page 2 BTW.

LordOfTheLight
JMango is Ziggy?

Freedon Nadd
The Sith failed the 'test' during those days because the Jedi were continously training and fighting wars. Ergo, they were forced to improve their combat skills, et cetera.
The PT was called the Golden Age of the Jedi because the galactic conflict between these two factions was over.
Plagueis himself admits that the old Jedi>the modern Jedi. laughing out loud

LordOfTheLight
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If we agree that thematically Sidious is the most powerful Sith, then at least the upper end of the PT Jedi must be the best, because they have multiple people who can challenge Sidious while back in the ancient eras the Jedi would have no Jedi to match Sith like Exar Kun.

Like seriously which era of Jedi is supposed to match Yoda, Anakin, Mace and Obi Wan again?

This precisely. Jedi individually of the PT era are a match for the Sith Lords in overall ability, whereas in the Ancient eras, aside from Revan and HoTLander, there really aren't Jedi who can match their individual Sith rivals one-on-one. And even in the case of Revan, he got stomped by his main counterpart.

I mean, Palpatine and Yoda? Obi Wan and Maul?

Not to mention, two more Jedi on Palpatine's general level, Mace and Anakin. Both superior to Dooku( to whom Obi Wan is reasonably close to) the second best Sith Lord of the era. In the meantime, you have other Masters in Plo Koon who can go toe to toe with Sith apprentices like Ventress and even demonstrate superiority.

It is pretty obvious that the Jedi numbers "dwindling" and the Jedi being the most powerful ever go hand in hand, i.e., you have more power( of the light side) concentrated in fewer Jedi, and the order as a whole is more powerful than it ever was leading to the production of a great many outstanding individuals and the bettering of the order as a whole. And let's face it, a thousand years of the light side growing stronger and stronger, would obviously mean that the Jedi would have grown stronger too.

Let's have a look at the ancient eras with Odan Urr, the so called "grandmaster" of the time back then. Looking at that, he has great hype, but in a one-on-one confrontation with his counterpart, he got one-shotted. Vodo Siosk Baas the next great Master got promptly owned as well. Bane's era? Laughable. The so called "champion" of the Jedi Order in SWTOR, needs PIS and his enemy to be incredibly weakened in order to even touch him. Satele( the Grand Master of her era) and Malgus who though pretty high, is nowhere near the absolute top? I can go on and on, but the point is clear-No Jedi in any era save for the PT era is a match for their counterpart Sith Lord one-on-one( I may forget a name or two, but nowhere to the extent that it is so in the PT era).

I also like the so called reasoning that years and years of continuous war would make the Jedi Order much more powerful. Funny, the Jedi of 1000 BBY had a "thousand" years of continuous battle experience and not just with any opponents but with the Sith themselves. You'd have thought that they would grow so powerful, they'd run around one-shotting their opponents like they were flies, but no, we get the same old story. Worse in fact, because the Jedi Order was at its utter weakest at this point to the point that they would recruit force sensitive rats just to help them win the war out of sheer desperation, a war they were losing somewhat soundly to the Sith who were themselves at their weakest ever by far. In fact, without the intervention of Darth Bane, the Jedi would have lost right then and there.

To summarize-

1. The Jedi had bathed the galaxy in a light side nexus for close to a thousand years one which obviously would have grown stronger with time, and the Jedi logically too would have.

2. The Jedi numbers are at a pretty low in this era, which means that the power of the light side is concentrated in fewer individuals leading to stronger individuals among the Jedi. This coupled with the fact that the light side grew stronger and stronger( you can argue that it would have been at its strongest ever) and you have much more powerful individual Jedi than otherwise.

3. The Jedi had a thousand more years to advance their order, to grow and to learn. Note that at this point in history, their position is unique-At no other point in history has the Order come off from fighting a war with the dark side itself and their arch-enemies for a full thousand years and won. The experience, knowledge and wisdom they would have gained from this would be monumentally bigger than at any other point in history. And as said in ROTS the Jedi were training to refight the last war, which means that they did focus on combative prowess above all else, only, those efforts would be utterly optimized by their cumulative experience and knowledge obtained from 1000 years of continuous war with the Sith which is a privilege they have never had ever. And as a result, the Jedi produced would obviously be a lot better than ever before.

4. We have exceptional Jedi of the era being able to match the exceptional Sith Lords of the era( actually the only Sith Lords of the era because there are just two or three, but those are incredibly exceptional) one-on-one, and then some. At no other point, have Jedi been able to match their Sith counterparts successfully, barring one or two one-off examples like Meetra vs Traya across all ages whereas there are almost scores of them in the PT era. And note that each Sith Lord in this era is one of the most powerful ever, with Tyranus and Maul easily being in the top 15 Sith Lords of all time( the former in top 10) and Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Lord ever, so it is not some run of the mill Sith Lords we are discussing here. It stands to simple reason that the lower level Jedi would be proportionately more powerful than their previous counterparts as would be the exceptional ones by simple induction.

5. And finally, a great many quotes objectively stating the Jedi of the era to be the best ever, including the WoG from the creator of the SW universe itself.

So, yeah, there is really no credible argument to be made that can assert that the Jedi of this era are not the best of all time. Even if one isn't convinced by the mountain of evidence directly asserting exactly that, it is obvious that of all the eras this one has the best shot. And by far.

Zenwolf
That and as of the Jedi Path, the PT Jedi do train themselves against holoprojected versions of past Sith Lords. This including Darth Ruin, Lord Kaan, Darth Desolous and other Sith of the past.

Azronger
thumb upthumb upthumb up at LotL (and Zen too)

LordOfTheLight
An error in sentence structuring. What I meant was-"It is more credible that the Jedi are the best ever in this time, since the Jedi numbers dwindling and the light side growing stronger over close to 1000 years go hand in hand".

Freedon Nadd
Quit with that light side 'shroud'. Only Plagueis believed that. There's no light side bathing the galaxy.

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