Matrix Philosophical Theories
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OH BOY!!! Good analyses all!
I like Moredred's idea about Seraph. The angelic order is called Seraphim. I believe they are the highest of the angelic orders. Seraph is the protector of the Oracle yes. The Oracle is one of the voices of the "god" figure which is the A.I. She helps Neo, who is the chosen one. The Architect is her polar opposite and extremely important... the trickster; the tempter; the cold one with hard "choices" that lead to death and degradation, but also to survival for Neo and the humans; the Adversary. He is the dark voice of the "god figure" which is the A.I. He tells the truth, half truths, and no truth at all. All at the same time plus try and confuse Neo with the multiple images of Neo along the walls to distract him.
The Wachowski Brothers used alot of religious allogory and mythology from not only christianity, but Judaism, possibly Islam and Buddhism. THis is an excellent blending of all feelings of the 4 major religions of the world in this story. They used the Yin/Yang thought from the far east also. The Oracle/Architect is that thought... Neo/Trinity is that thought. Lock/Hamann is that thought. This is excellent stuff.
Trav6612, Smith and Neo are linked completely. Smith is now a rogue program that is allowed by the A.I. to continue its mission. All as a test for Neo and a prodding for his further advancement. If Neo dies then the A.I. will start again, but his he doesn't die and somehow neutralizes the rogue Smith program then that is of great importance to the A.I. It will be borne out in REVOLUTIONS.
Gnosticism is good because it helps open the mind to all other possibilities.
But I don't see the Architect as pure evil and bad, etc. etc. Nor do I see the Oracle as the good god, etc. etc. I see them as both the same mind. The great intellect but the two opposing aspects of that one great mind... the A.I. I do see the Oracle aspect of the A.I. as the nurturer in its own way so therefore the Wachowski Brothers had the Oracle as an older female. A grandmother type figure always baking cookies and offering candies to sooth the pain of living, so to speak. The Architect is not the father figure as much as it is the distant grandfather or greatgrandfather figure but stern and unmoving... looking at Neo with a combination of detachment and disapproval at the same time. Sometimes mocking and tempting... This can also be the Lucifer (light bearer) aspect as well as the Satanic (adversary) aspect of the dynamic A.I. mentality. One would do this to a person to spur them on to higher achievements. It doesn't always work, but the Wachowski Brothers understand that idea.
I've got a question for you all? The architect while talking to Neo said that if Neo didn't diseminate his code in the source, it would destroy the matrix. What is so important about Neo putting his code into the source?
I would agree, but why would the architect say that the matrix would be destroyed killing everyone attached to the matirix, if it is only to improve the matrix?
I agree. Its evolution in a sense. All living things download their genetic code by sexual reproduction or asexual reproduction. In the case of the A.I. it recreates itself through the downloading of the memories, etc. by the chosen one. At the moment Neo may not understand that and may not do it. He may see it as a trick by the Architect, but it was the appeal of the A.I. for him to do so. Will he die in the process? That is the question.
"the creator must join with V'Ger".
Yes, that is a good question? Will Neo die or not and does the architect know that? How could he know that?
My posts don't seem to be showing up for some reason, I apologize if I have duplicate posts.
Please check out the last couple pages of the "OFFICIAL is there more than 1 Matrix" thread. I'm starting to get my thoughts together, but I may need your help there.
ok... give me a few moments.
Here is the entire transcript of the Neo-Architect dialogue. I think this will be helpful to the discussion:
The Architect - Hello, Neo.
Neo - Who are you?
The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.
Neo - Why am I here?
The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.
Neo - You haven't answered my question.
The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*
The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.
*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*
Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.
The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*
Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.
*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*
The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
Neo - The Oracle.
The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.
Neo - This is about Zion.
The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.
Neo - Bullshit.
*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*
The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.
*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*
The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.
Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.
The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.
*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*
The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.
*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*
Neo - Trinity.
The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.
Neo - No!
The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.
*Neo walks to the door on his left*
The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.
Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.
The Architect - We won't.
Thank you Serpent. You answered it. Neo dies to the reality of Zion and combines with the Great Mind. V'ger joins with the creator.
It is clear now that I can read the dialogue itself. The architect and the Oracle are polar opposites. The light and the dark. The faith and the realities. The Self arguing and analyzing itself. The Oracle is the opimistic and bright side of the A.I. creativity, whereas the Architect is the analytical part of that creativity. It's written right there. One has to read it and read between the lines. It's beautiful.
I think Neo became aware that he is going to die but before that he saves Trinity.
REVOLUTION will be the telling.
When is it that Neo became aware that he was going to die? "Neo dies to the reality of Zion and combines with the Great Mind." could you also clarify what you mean by this statment.
In what way doe she join the great mind?
The Architect indicated that Neo carries the code that the A.I. needs. He is to disseminate that code into the "source". The source is the A.I. To disseminate that code he will have to join with the A.I. It is my belief that the process will kill his living body, but his mind and his selfness will be one with the A.I. The source.
Read the dialogue Serpent posted. It's all there. It's beautiful.
Why does A.I. need the code, is it to preform an upgrade and try to fix the upgrade?
That's a magnificent leap. It would not have equate it with TIME. Not at all.
The beginning and the end... I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Neo is the "christ" figure to the ARchitect's Vishnu like thought... I have become death... the destroyer of worlds. That can be taken on several levels. Unless I have my dieties mixed up... The oracle is Shiva to the Architect's Vishnu with the A.I. en totus as BRAHMA... God of all. Without getting religious in any sense this is what the dialogue kinda brought to mind. But the time looping? Fascinating. How would you explain this?
The dialogue is like saying the A.I. was saying to Neo through the Architect that "I have come full circle and now I wish to take from you what is part of me so I can continue on. To grow. I must absorb what you are." That is what it sounds like.
Time travel? Ridiculous.
The Anomaly is responsible for the start of each Matrix phase and he is responsible for the end of each one as well. Simple as that.
Meanwhile, seriously guys, there is too much irrelevant waffle in these threads. if you want to talk to each other about your 'ideas', do so in private but a lot of what is being said here is doing nothing more than put a lot off posting.
Not time travel. Serpent is speaking ecsoterically about time looping. Even nonecsoterically. But I am waiting for his explanation of his meaning. I'm fascinated.
I am a little lost, trying to follow both of your posts serpent and maul's women, What would be the purpose of the time looping in the Matrix?
I believe they need to take his memories and experiences in the code.Just like evolution if they dont adapt it will lead to extintion.So they make the matrix better so most of the people dont find out its not real.Morpheous said most of the people arent ready to wake up from it so most of them will die of shock and the rest you do survive will probably drown in the pool that neo went in on the first matrix.
Wow, I leave for a couple of days and the posts go to crap. Why in the world are you people making this so complicated. There is a simple answer that dosen't require time looping like you guys are talking about.
Neo is the end of this version of the matrix. He is the begining of the next. That simple. The only way a time loop may come into play is when they reset the matrix's time. The first movie says at humankinds height of success. I am guessing 20th/21st century.
i think that zion is in another form of the matrix, which is why neo sences something differnt.
in the Matirx, it involves a choice, and that you can acept and that you dont. the ones that dont, het free, and enter the 'real world' yet this real world is just another matrix for those who dont acept the first matrix. this is why the machines are destroying it, in actual fact they are just wiping this matrix, for the next generation of things to come. the reason why neo stops the sentinal is because , he can feel something, he bilives something, and like in the other matrix, you must belive it to do it.
its like th eteahings of God, where it says, happy are thoses who belive yet do not see. and those that dont belive wil be dammed for eternity. so the other matrix is that.
We'll have none of that M0vieBuff. Keep it clean.
Philisophical talk was seperated because it was obcuring the point of many threads and annoying the hell out of people.
Those are some good questions and i think you hit the nail on the head with the first one. The fundamental flaw in the matrix is that it requires humans to accept it to work. This creates the anomaly and it is that anomaly that expresses it self in the form of a man. This man then has to choose to continue the matrix or end it. Either way he will be the END of that version and the BEGINNING of the next.
Now about the programs. This is a bit tougher. You have to think of the matrix as your home PC. Lets say you reset your computer to factory default settings. Everything goes back to the way it was i.e. time goes back to 1900 and memories are erased. Even though you restore settings your saved documents and programs would still be on the computer. Thus programs can stick around.
If some of you are a bit more computer savy help out my theory. I think this is the most logical though.
I agree on most accounts. Each version does run diffrent. I think the one proably even looked diffrent. I seem to rember a line from m1 when the oracle told neo he was cuter than she thought. That would imply she had never seen him before, but she has seen the other ONE's.
Now i dont think it is possible for a program to perform a task it dosen't understand. For this reason the A.I. had to give some programing power to a man so that he could make the matrix work for humans. There we have the beginings of the ONE. He could rewrite the matrix as he saw fit. The part about being born inside the matrix may meen he became concious of the matrix from the inside. His thought was born there wheres the rest of the rebels had to become unplugged. This does seem to fit but as always i request help with my theory or any feedback .
that is very good. I also think there would have been free humans some where. I just cant see every human everywhere killed. Or just one city left.
the people in zion hacked into the matrix and freed the first one. then came the glitch.(neo). it's really that simple.
the people that are chosem arnt they the zion leaders??? and they then free people who will not acept the program. in atual fact the people in zion are causeing less trouble to the machines by freeing people. th eonly reason why zion gets destroyed again and agaidn, is because once the 'one' is araound the machines cannot keep control.
the reason why the architect dosent want neo to go back into the matrix i because that means that he will learn that th efree people arnt free, bu tin another version, the reason why they acept this is because the deinied th efirst one but they belive this to be reality. neo sees this andthats what i think tht revolutions will be about.
oh btw, i think i just spoiled my life
revolutions is gonna give us all a shock.
I agree completely with mac11586, the line "as a beginning as an end" means that no matter what Neo chooses, the anomaly will end. Like if the anomaly start in that moment (consiensusly) and ends when the One chooses one of the doors (makes a free choice).
By the way, something that I have never realized until yesterday (very donkey) is the fact that "Neo" has the same letters as "One".
Hi I'm new to this so everyone be gentle. What is the purpose of 'The One' ?. Nothing !. At least nothing in relation to the perpetuation of the Matrix. 'Evil Dead' in one of his posts stated that Neo could not have been eliminated in the 1st movie because this would have resulted in a 'system crash . . .'. However this is not so. As we would all recall Agent Smith did all in his power to destroy 'The One'. The fact that he failed to do so is of no consequence. It was his intent. And all this while still part of the 'System', one which he (Smith) would have been trying to preserve. Thus many of your theories would have been flawed. 'The One' serves no purpose in the context of the Matrix. He is an anomaly. One which thus far cannot be prevented, by alternatively subject to a degree of control. Thus, may I propose that the architect is just another form of control.
To build off my last post, 'The One' has no purpose in the context of the Matrix. He is "the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programing of the matrix". His existance is inevitable. As for the "Matrix in Matrix" theory, fundamentally flawed. If that were the case, then Zion could be destroyed by simply ceasing to run that particular program.
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