IndieWire: J.J. Abrams: Star Wars Fans Who Didn't Like TLJ Are Threatened by Women

The Lost

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You mean the guy that never gave up on his father he barely knew? Who him and Vader helped bring balance to the Force and kill the most powerful thing outside The Ones against all odds? Who pretty much kept up a cheery disposition in a very depressing time, and relied on his friends and Jedi skills to get him through?

And then

Who very seriously thought about killing his nephew at the first hint of the darkseid and pretty much gave up being a jedi altogether, as well as abandoned all his friends and family? In a time of relative peace

This is a pretty lacking interpretation and I've seen it WAY too many times. "Luke's character was destroyed, he'd never contemplate killing his nephew, etc."

I'd also like to point out before starting that a brief and passing thought that left Luke feeling guilt and shame (as he says himself) is not "very seriously" thinking about killing your nephew.

Also, did you just say Luke abandoned his friends and family in a time of relative peace? Luke went into exile after the Jedi Temple was attacked and burned down (dead Jedi included - for free!) so why are you making it seem like Luke had little reason to leave everything behind?

To begin, it's flat-out wrong to say Luke having a brief thought about killing Ben is out of character. This is one of the more absurd criticisms I've seen leveled at TLJ (and the bad criticisms outweigh the good tenfold, I'm finding).

Keep in mind that Yoda straight up tells Kenobi to go kill Anakin whilst he goes off and takes care of Sidious (or tries to, at least) and Kenobi remembers this lesson and informs Luke to take care of Vader. Having capabilities within the force to foresee millions dying from a dark-side threat, you terminate that threat regardless of it's personal cost.

Keep in mind that when Luke has this vision, he has a responsibility that comes before his blood relation and his personal feelings as one of the few remaining galactic authorities/powers. That is why, when Luke sees this vision, his immediate instinct is to quell this rising menace and this is what a leader does. Ending danger before it becomes dangerous. However, he overcomes this almost immediately and is left (like I said previously) feeling guilty and shameful.

With the given circumstances and knowing Luke's character, it's not out of character for him to consider this, no matter how briefly. If he followed through or actually attempted to murder Ben? I could see your point. As it stands now, the point is rather inadequate.

Luke did what Luke has done before and that is sensing and/or witnessing tremendous evil/suffering and trying to extinguish it. This is man who attempted to murder the Emperor, who was unarmed, to save the galaxy from further torment. He internally struggles throughout that and it is consistently in-character for him to do so. Remember when he almost kills Vader as well and has to look at his own artificial hand to reconcile himself in ROTJ?

Luke is not a Qui-Gon and people fail to realize this. He is not a flawless representation of the Jedi or even the light side. Luke is more complicated and Johnson (and the writers) recognized this.

Okay, so, your point about Luke abandoning everyone and his exile? Luke's exile makes considerable sense, especially when compared to Kenobi's exile or Yoda's. They went into exile and hid. Their master plan was to burn time and train another Skywalker to murder a Skywalker that they had previously failed (Anakin). The OT is sacrosanct to many but they waited such a long period of time to do this with Luke. Hell, they waited until they were essentially forced to do it. It was a hell of a risk.

Instead? Luke does not wish to train Rey because he is more aware of the dangers than his previous masters and is trying to extract some wisdom from their mistakes. It's a vicious cycle, right? The Jedi seek out force-sensitive individuals with (usually) a considerable amount of power and then they rise through the ranks and can potentially turn sour (fall to the dark side) and become galactic-scale threats.

Luke wants to break this cycle as opposed to perpetuating it. I think Luke begins to respect the influence and amazing power that a person can bear when they are strong within the force and thinks the Jedi, historically and perhaps more contemporarily, have botched this process. You do not have to support his reasoning but the implication that he left them behind without a decent reason or because of "bad writing" seems absurd.

In this film, Luke and Ben are two sides of the same coin. They wish to leave the past in the past to forge something new and better. Luke seeks to build a new way for the force to be experienced and wielded, separate from what basically amounts to a religion with a dangerous force behind it. Ben wants to build a new identity and create a virtual superpower. Their ideas are both incredibly flawed. Luke eventually realizes this but Ben fails to do so.

This ultimately leads Luke to understand that Ben may be beyond the pull of the dark side and Ben's obvious ambition, regardless of the cost, but Luke understands that Ben may not be so far gone that he cannot atone or discover redemption. Luke passes this responsibility to a younger generation (Rey) who is firmly convinced that Ben can, in fact, be redeemed. Although Luke obviously has concerns about Rey reigniting that cycle, he has an understanding it can birth something unrelated to the tragedies and grievous errors of the Jedi Order.

Luke represents something different in his old age than he did when he was young but maintains the core of who he is and has all of the trademarks of someone who went through this trajectory naturally. It's purposeful character work and has unfortunately gone unnoticed by many.

Sinious

Holy f*** that was stupid

Edit: Not as stupid as Lost’s post.

The Lost

Thanks for being so nice.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
This is a pretty lacking interpretation and I've seen it WAY too many times. "Luke's character was destroyed, he'd never contemplate killing his nephew, etc." It's also leaving things out, but it is the easiest way to see the vast difference in the characters. Hence why you've seen it way too many times.

Originally posted by The Lost
I'd also like to point out before starting that a brief and passing thought that left Luke feeling guilt and shame (as he says himself) is not "very seriously" thinking about killing your nephew. Are you serious right now? He wasn't feeling very serious about killing his nephew because of guilt and shame?

He turned an ultra bright loud lightsaber on in his sleep. Then a terrified Kylo either swung or blocked an attack. And somehow knocking A Grand Wizard in Luke out in the process... but I digress.

What would your excuse be had he killed him? That he didn't really kill him because he felt guilty?

Originally posted by The Lost
Also, did you just say Luke abandoned his friends and family in a time of relative peace? Luke went into exile after the Jedi Temple was attacked and burned down (dead Jedi included - for free!) so why are you making it seem like Luke had little reason to leave everything behind? I said relative peace in comparison to having his family and friends burned to death and many friends killed in a huge war.
I didn't say at complete peace. And he was at peace anyway until he tried to kill his nephew. He had no reason to simply mope around, unless he was out of character.

And the whole reason his temple was burned down because he tried to kill his nephew and got ko'ed in the process. It wasn't like out of nowhere his temple was attacked and now he can't see the good in anyone, he shoved Ben to the darkside and paid the price. He even admits he created Kylo, then he turns it around and blames Snoke.

Luke's temple directly got attacked because he was so out of character. Then he went to go die because he was so out of character.

Also the darkside he sensed could and likely was the direct result of Luke's actions pushing him over the edge. Luke should have known this. Luke should have tried to talk to his nephew about this. Luke should have tried something other than standing over a kid with a lightsaber. Someone, who again, tried at every opportunity to turn Vader.

Originally posted by The Lost
To begin, it's flat-out wrong to say Luke having a brief thought about killing Ben is out of character. This is one of the more absurd criticisms I've seen leveled at TLJ (and the bad criticisms outweigh the good tenfold, I'm finding). No, it is. You use Palpatine as a basis for this argument later on, and Palpatine was a nexus a evil, and even then it took a lot for Luke to attack him.

He just senses darkside in child and decides he might very well kill him? That's already conflicting.

Originally posted by The Lost
Keep in mind that Yoda straight up tells Kenobi to go kill Anakin whilst he goes off and takes care of Sidious (or tries to, at least) and Kenobi remembers this lesson and informs Luke to take care of Vader. Having capabilities within the force to foresee millions dying from a dark-side threat, you terminate that threat regardless of it's personal cost. You're contrasting Vader to an at the time innocent child. This should speak for itself.
At the time Yoda watched Anakin kill many many Jedis and younglins. Anakin lead a revolt against the Jedi temple and completely decimated it. Anakin committing one of the worst things that Yoda has ever been witness to. It's not the same... even a little bit. Yes, Jedi will kill evil, or when they need to, but they do not kill innocents.

And having capabilities to foresee millions dying so you should kill them before it happens, is not how the Jedi do things. You're applying the "kill Hitler when he's young" argument to Star Wars, and coincidentally using the same line of logic Palpatine used to kill any force sensitive child he could find so they couldn't oppose him.

I really don't think I have to keep in mind this at all. As with many of your examples. You're all about inventing context and making excuses for Luke acting different in TLJ, but you're pretty freely ignoring very very important context in the examples you compare it to to try and make it seem alright. Oh, Luke killing a child is OK because Yoda told Obi Wan to kill Vader? Oh, well, that's fine I guess.

Originally posted by The Lost
Keep in mind that when Luke has this vision, he has a responsibility that comes before his blood relation and his personal feelings as one of the few remaining galactic authorities/powers. That is why, when Luke sees this vision, his immediate instinct is to quell this rising menace and this is what a leader does. Ending danger before it becomes dangerous. However, he overcomes this almost immediately and is left (like I said previously) feeling guilty and shameful. Like I said before, this is the Sith way. A Jedi if they felt so strongly about this would have simply cut training and kicked him out, or helped him.

You're applying false motives to Luke. Motives that don't fit Luke's character... hence why people say he was acting out of character. A lot of what you do in this post is spin your own narrative to try say why things are right, when even you admit Luke is "different" at the end.

The problem is, the people who raise these points don't have to assign motives and make up narratives to come to the conclusion that Luke is acting different and very non Jedi. The very core of your point is that it's alright that Luke did this, and here's why, while very loosely trying to say he's the same without any real backup as to why. You're thinking from a personal viewpoint, and not from an in universe view. A normal person would have killed the kid.
A great Jedi under full approval of Obi Wan/Yoda, and who redeemed Anakin would not. Luke thinking that hardly about it already betrays the Jedi way, and who he was. Especially a family man like Luke.

Though I am glad you admit Luke was a galactic authority/power. That will come up, don't worry.

Originally posted by The Lost
With the given circumstances and knowing Luke's character, it's not out of character for him to consider this, no matter how briefly. If he followed through or actually attempted to murder Ben? I could see your point. As it stands now, the point is rather inadequate. But your reasons are basically in full defense of killing the kid. Both the paragraph above this, and the paragraph below are giving reasons why him killing the kid are for the greater good, and he should have. You tried to use Anakin and Palpatine as times when Jedi attempted to kill, and therefore it would have been alright for Luke to do so.

Which begs the question of why you could only see my point had Luke actually killed him? By all means you are in full defense of it being in character, so what changes? Why could your logic falter if that were the case?

And no it's not in character at all. Luke both before, after and during his final fight with Vader continued to hold out hope he could change him. Him jumping straight to the murder in your sleep wagon after dealing with such a lost cause like Vader and seeing him change don't exactly stay in character for Luke.

And if it wasn't a big deal, it wouldn't have made it to the movie. Evidently something was wrong, and the scene was made for a reason. Even if the intention was just to show Kylo Ben's evil, it still used the wrong character to highlight it. If it wasn't a big deal, it wouldn't have directly thrown Kylo to the dark side and resulted in him burning down the temple and killing a bunch of people. You're trying to minimize the importance of the scene. It happened, he did it, and however fleeting the moment was it had dire consequences. Obi Wan wouldn't have done that shit.

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke did what Luke has done before and that is sensing and/or witnessing tremendous evil/suffering and trying to extinguish it. This is man who attempted to murder the Emperor, who was unarmed, to save the galaxy from further torment. He internally struggles throughout that and it is consistently in-character for him to do so. Remember when he almost kills Vader as well and has to look at his own artificial hand to reconcile himself in ROTJ? Again, how are you going to contrast the ultimate evil in Star Wars with a child? Anakin was bad enough. Palpatine though? Surely you see the error here.

And Palpatine was literally telling Luke he was going to kill all his friends while Luke tried his hardest to hold true to himself. Not only that, but Palpatine was behind the only family he knew for however many years getting burned to death. That Palpatine was blowing up planets previously, and now had another planet destroyer that he was bragging to Luke about.

He almost kills Vader in a fit of rage to overcome him and win the battle. A Grand Wizard Luke is different than a Jedi Knight Luke. And a fit of rage in battle is different than killing a kid in his sleep in a calm state, especially when Luke should be at his peak at that point in time.

Palpatine and Vader were behind decades of murdering people and wiping out the Jedi. It is simply not the same.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke is not a Qui-Gon and people fail to realize this. He is not a flawless representation of the Jedi or even the light side. Luke is more complicated and Johnson (and the writers) recognized this. He is not flawless, no. Nobody said that, but he has never been portrayed like he was in TLJ. The fact that he considered murdering a child is not exactly in character. The last we saw of him in films he held out hope that his beyond redemption deadbeat father that he watched murder his mentor and tried to kill his own child (Luke), could be redeemed. That is a very stark contrast to say the least.

Even Mark Hamill was pissed about the way he was being portrayed.

And when your only justification for the things Luke did are because ObiWanAnakinYodaEmpireVader under vastly different and more dire situations, that's not exactly telling that the writers understood Luke. The fact that you hear this misunderstood argument so much doesn't speak well for the writers understanding Luke.
The fact that you have to make up your own motivations for what Luke did and why he did it, do not speak well for the writers understanding Luke.

Luke was a complicated character, but he still had a character, who he was quite true to in the OT. Him being complicated doesn't give writers free reign to write him completely out of character in things he would never do prior. I mean, they can write him like that, but it doesn't mean it makes sense.

Originally posted by The Lost
Okay, so, your point about Luke abandoning everyone and his exile? Luke's exile makes considerable sense, especially when compared to Kenobi's exile or Yoda's. They went into exile and hid. Their master plan was to burn time and train another Skywalker to murder a Skywalker that they had previously failed (Anakin). The OT is sacrosanct to many but they waited such a long period of time to do this with Luke. Hell, they waited until they were essentially forced to do it. It was a hell of a risk. Again, your comparisons make no sense.

Palpatine was the absolute power in the galaxy with vast resources and a massive army at his disposal. Yoda and Obi Wan had some wookies and stray Jedi that didn't get instantly murdered on Order 66. There was no way they could fight Palpatine without waiting on an army and more Jedi to train. Obi Wan also had to wait for Luke to mature to even try.
And this was after both of them attempted to turn the tides. Yoda tried to kill Palpatine and failed. In addition to everything else Palpatine had, he was also at least as powerful as Yoda. The only other person who could have helped was Obi Wan and wookies.
There was absolutely no other choice than to run and hide. They could do nothing.

While you already admitted Luke was a galactic power/authority. Already a very big difference. Not only that, but Luke was far and away the most powerful being in the galaxy, with an army behind him that helped defeat the Empire. It is not comparable in the least.

So the question you're left with, is why did it make sense for Luke to exile himself when he could have had help, and lots of it? Why did it make sense for him to abandon his previous friends and family when their own son was involved, and they helped face down the Empire together? Why did it not make sense for him to fight and stop the threat?
Yoda/Obi Wan left because they could do nothing, and needed to manage the next Jedi. Luke just left to die. And we'll touch upon something I just said.

What Luke actually said.

He said he would never train another Jedi and he came to the planet to die. He gave up. He gave up hope. He gave up everything. He threw away the lightsaber, and referred to it as a lasersword - the thing that previously helped save the galaxy. He wasn't even going to do anything at all until R2 relayed the message that started his entire journey.

It is not even remotely similar.

Originally posted by The Lost
Instead? Luke does not wish to train Rey because he is more aware of the dangers than his previous masters and is trying to extract some wisdom from their mistakes. It's a vicious cycle, right? The Jedi seek out force-sensitive individuals with (usually) a considerable amount of power and then they rise through the ranks and can potentially turn sour (fall to the dark side) and become galactic-scale threats. Well, skipping why he closed himself off from the force, and why he exiled himself...

The first time he tested Rey with the Force she went immediately to the dark side without even really trying to stop. That doesn't line up with you saying it's alright to kill kids and your current rationalization with why things are happening. The fact that he continues to train her don't go with your in character of him, nor is it even in character of his current motives considering he told her that shit is done.
I will admit, this is one of the few times he is in character, in a movie full of character assassination. Luke saw the good in her, and continued to try.

And he couldn't even sense Rey in the first place, likely because he closed himself off, but that seems like something you'd use to sense new people, especially when they already know who you are.

Luke didn't want to train her though because he gave up. Not because he didn't want to have another pupil turn. Then like the first thing that happens has him feel the same type of conflict that was in Kylo and he goes, oh well, might as well train you anyway?

That's not some history lesson of going against the old ways, that's him directly not following your made up motivations.

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke wants to break this cycle as opposed to perpetuating it. I think Luke begins to respect the influence and amazing power that a person can bear when they are strong within the force and thinks the Jedi, historically and perhaps more contemporarily, have botched this process. You do not have to support his reasoning but the implication that he left them behind without a decent reason or because of "bad writing" seems absurd. Well, what I said above, and in addition:

Luke tried to burn all the texts and the last trace of the Jedi because Rey proved him wrong. Yoda had to do it for him to prove him wrong. Then he immediately went back on that.

Luke didn't even know what he was doing. And he still thought he was weak, and couldn't properly teach Rey. And Luke only begins thinking the Jedi way needs to die after Rey shows up. He then sees this way was wrong.

Luke had no motivations beyond dwelling on his mistakes, and thinking the Jedi were failures. Luke was simply not Luke in this movie. And only after Yoda talks sense in him does he see begin to be Luke again. IE, the movie itself says that everything Luke did up to that point were stupid, and Yoda says failure is the greatest teacher. Which means Luke failed, yet the movie made that seem somewhat good (even though everything that happens could be assumed to be heavily Luke's fault)

Luke at that time should have been on or near Yoda's level in understanding. He was not.

Originally posted by The Lost
In this film, Luke and Ben are two sides of the same coin. They wish to leave the past in the past to forge something new and better. Luke seeks to build a new way for the force to be experienced and wielded, separate from what basically amounts to a religion with a dangerous force behind it. Ben wants to build a new identity and create a virtual superpower. Their ideas are both incredibly flawed. Luke eventually realizes this but Ben fails to do so. Come on man, you know that's not what Luke was doing. Luke himself cut himself off from the force until Rey came. Then Luke just tries to teach one pupil one way. And goes all over the place with the reasons for it.

But you admitting Luke's reasoning was flawed doesn't exactly bode well for him being completely in character and written well. If it was flawed, how was he the same character? If he acted nothing like the old Luke, how was he the same?

Ben doesn't matter so much, but I wouldn't exactly say they're two sides of the same coin. Both conflicted yes, but the conflict doesn't mean ying and yang, nor does it mean one of the character's conflicts fits within the character.

Also, you're making up your own motivations for why it's right again. I could do that as well to back up my side, but the crazy thing is, I don't have to. You see where the issue lies here?

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
This ultimately leads Luke to understand that Ben may be beyond the pull of the dark side and Ben's obvious ambition, regardless of the cost, but Luke understands that Ben may not be so far gone that he cannot atone or discover redemption. Luke passes this responsibility to a younger generation (Rey) who is firmly convinced that Ben can, in fact, be redeemed. Although Luke obviously has concerns about Rey reigniting that cycle, he has an understanding it can birth something unrelated to the tragedies and grievous errors of the Jedi Order. The whole first sentence is exactly what I'm saying Luke should have realized instead of going to kill him in his sleep. Because that is exactly the way the old Luke would have handled it from the start. You know this, except you deny it so. Why? Luke in character would have done all he could without turning a lightsaber on on Ben in his sleep. Because he would have believed he could be redeemed.

Luke didn't pass shit to Rey. She bested him in a fight because why not, and then she left without her training being complete, and then Luke threw a hissy fit. Luke was fully under the guise that Ben was irredeemable when he last spoke to Rey. He even says Snoke had his skeletal little fingers too deep in his arsehole. Those exact words. Rey learned everything from the mistakes of Luke, and Yoda confirms it. Luke was not instilling mass morality lessons of his own intent. Luke and Ben were cautionary tales.

Rey and Yoda passed that hope onto Luke, not the other way around. After they show Luke the hope and way of the Jedi, he starts realizing hey, I might actually believe I can help this kid I scared half to death in his sleep, and who lashed out at everything.

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke represents something different in his old age than he did when he was young but maintains the core of who he is and has all of the trademarks of someone who went through this trajectory naturally. It's purposeful character work and has unfortunately gone unnoticed by many.

Luke blamed the Jedi for Darth Sidious rising to power. That's not really a natural path to lead to. That's not the core of who he was.
Not only that, but he ran away to die because his student turned on him and killed a bunch of other students. Again, not the core of who he was. The core of who he was was not a moping coward.

Basically to sum up Luke in the movie.
He wanted to kill a child. Then he just wanted to die and be left alone while giving up the force. Then he wanted to burn the Jedi way. Then he realized the Jedi were kind of alright.

What did he represent in his old age? And at what stage did he represent this?

There's more I could say, but I feel this is enough for now. I didn't want to go into a third post, but that's life, and I'm fully in character.
Basically, I think Luke was not fully in character, and his massive shifts between like four different characters don't exactly prove me wrong. And the fact that Luke went through all these changes make me think Luke got shit on as a character.
He was not the Jedi to use to prove these kind of points.

He was supposed to be the all powerful Grand Wizard with a Justin Bieber Never say Never attitude that could see the good in people, loved his family and friends, that didn't seriously contemplate killing nephews in his sleep. At least I don't think the OT gave off the vibe of child murderer in it.

Rockydonovang

TLJ VS TFA

What it Offers SW:
TFA: Renders the prior saga pointless
TLJ: Offers something new(a less archaic jedi) and ensures that the ST will at least set up a new knd of story in the next trilogy

TLJ Stomps.

Acting:
-> Mark Hamil and Andy Serkis put up much better performances than Ridley or Ford did in TFA, the latter two having the best performances in TFA
-> Adam Driver perfoms much better in TLJ than TFA masterfully conveying his character's conflict, anger, and conviction. His acting both when contemplating what to do with his mom and the helmet scene are vastly above anything he pulls off in TFA.
-> Boyega performs just as well as he does in TFA though he's now given much better material.
-> Ridley's performance has improved as improved as wella s she's impressively conveying a greater range of emotions. Scenes that standout to me are the ones where she sees her reflection and where she is being trained by Luke.

TLJ Stomps.

Dialogue:
Virtually any of the dialogue from Snoke, Yoda, and Most of the dialogue from Luke stands well above anything we get from TFA save for some of the lines harrison ford is given.

The returning cast are also given much better material to work with. "Let the past die"for example is unmatched by dialogue Ren is given in TFA.

TLJ Stomps.

Characertization:
Luke is given better character development than anyone in TFA. Ren's character development in TLJ is also above anything we see out of TFA where the chatacter development is less about character growth but more about a changing status quo for the characters.

TLJ Stomps.

Cinematography: TLJ is less flashy but more focused resulting in a more compelling visuals. the attention to detail i TLJ is on another level from what we see in TFA. TLJ also has a variety of powerful symbols that TFA lacks. Take Ren making sand marks as Luke does not, the crushed mask, the dice ect.

TLJ wins decisively.

Story:
TLJ exposits far less and as a result it's story feels more like an experience than a summary. TLJ trusts the reader to piece together what is going on. TFA at times gets bogged down with exposition and tells rather than shows the reader what it's trying to say.

TLJ's story is far more powerful thematically. TFA's theme is generic and not all that meaningful outside of the context it's set in. TLJ conveys an important message regarding failure and moving on and conveys this message powerfully with a barrage of meaningful symbols, iconic scenes, and strong dialogue.

Finally, TLJ is mostly original. While it was a bit heavy with material from rotj in snoke's final scene, it's still vastly more original than TFA which more or less copy and pasted TFA's plot. And don't bs me with how the PT copies the OT too, it doesn't. The PT mirrors the OT, but it tells a completely orginal story. TFA set up the ST to be a reboot, TLJ ensureed the ST will be it's own story that adds something to the lore rather than try to retell it.

Again TLJ Stomps.

Overall:
TLJ tells a much better story, adds to the lore(rather than retelling it), executes it's story better, and has significantly better visual direction.

It's both a far better movie than TFA technically and offers much more as a SW movie.

TLJ for the win.

Rockydonovang

Also:
-> Luke going into exile was TFA's decision, not TLJ's
-> Luke did not attack Ren and never considiered killing Ren. He ignited his light saber in an involuntary reaction to emotion and then immediately regretted that decision.
-> Luke wanting to break the jedi order as we know it is perfectly in character. You might recall the climax of the OT has Luke disregarding both Yoda and Ben's advice to redeem his father. Luke is also perfectly accurate in blaming the order for Sidious' rise to power as it was indeed their arrogance and incompetency that allowed Sidious to take control.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Also:
-> Luke going into exile was TFA's decision, not TLJ's
-> Luke did not attack Ren and never considiered killing Ren. He ignited his light saber in an involuntary reaction to emotion and then immediately regretted that decision.
-> Luke wanting to break the jedi order as we know it is perfectly in character. You might recall the climax of the OT has Luke disregarding both Yoda and Ben's advice to redeem his father. Luke is also perfectly accurate in blaming the order for Sidious' rise to power as it was indeed their arrogance and incompetency that allowed Sidious to take control. And they expanded and ran with it. And his reason for going into exile was because of his failure with adequately dealing with his nephew. Which TLJ showed in detail.
I'm not saying TFA was innocent, I'm saying the expansion pack gave a really shoddy reason.

I don't stand over loved ones firing warning shots into the ceiling with a gun. Him knowing his actions were wrong don't erase it from happening.
Also it's unclear if Luke swung at Benlo or simply blocked when looking at both scenes. Either way he did nothing to dissuade Ben from thinking he was going to die when he saw a terrified kid, until it was completely too late. And then he got knocked out...

How is trying to redeem Vader wanting to break the Jedi order? They simply thought Luke could not accomplish it. They thought Vader beyond redemption. I don't feel like rewatching the movie again to know there was no conversation that said Luke hates Jedi and he's going to bring the whole thing down. Daddy son time now.
The fact that they were seen as light side force ghosts smiling with Luke at the end doesn't portray Luke breaking the order.

Luke was fully entrenched in the Jedi ways at the end of the OT, and even up till child murdering in TLJ summary of the last few years.

You don't celebrate Yub Nub with force ghosts and then decide the Jedi are stupid.

Also, Palpatine manipulated the Jedi entirely. That's the whole point of Palpatine's feat there. You can't blame the Jedi more than Sidious there with a straight face. Luke should know this.

Rockydonovang

1. redeeming vader is ignoring archaic jedi belieifs like the one that one who goes to the dark can't come back or that the jedi must detach themselves from love.

2. He never got the time to dissuade. It's pretty clear given the rest of what we see from Luke in TLJ. Why would we go with the interpretation, that Luke tried to kill Ren, that doesn't align with how else he is potrayed?

3. I never recalled Luke saying Sidious was free of blame but that's pretty moot givent he context of what Luke was discussing; The way he should proceed, not how the bad guys should.

4. TLJ doesn't derseve blame for the bad hand TFA dealt it.

Rockydonovang

(My comparison of TFA and TLJ is on the last page)

Galan007

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Also it's unclear if Luke swung at Benlo or simply blocked when looking at both scenes. -The first flashback was Luke's truth: he just went to talk, and Ben freaked out and attacked him for no reason.

-The second flashback was Ben's truth: Luke legitimately attacked him, so he just defended himself.

-The third flashback was the truth: Luke sensed Ben's future, and saw that he could not be swayed/turned from the dark side. Luke's first thought was that he needed to end the imminent threat, so he ignited his lightsaber... But instantly stopped himself and regretted the thought of killing an innocent child/his nephew. Even though Luke was never *actually* going to hurt him, Ben still awoke to see his Master holding an ignited saber above him, felt betrayed, and attacked out of fear.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. redeeming vader is ignoring archaic jedi belieifs like the one that one who goes to the dark can't come back or that the jedi must detach themselves from love.

2. He never got the time to dissuade. It's pretty clear given the rest of what we see from Luke in TLJ. Why would we go with the interpretation, that Luke tried to kill Ren, that doesn't align with how else he is potrayed?

3. I never recalled Luke saying Sidious was free of blame but that's pretty moot givent he context of what Luke was discussing; The way he should proceed, not how the bad guys should.

4. TLJ doesn't derseve blame for the bad hand TFA dealt it. And going against one thing does not mean he wants to break the whole order. He was not doing anything too wrong, and they simply thought it was impossible. You're blowing that completely out of proportion.
But he's the chosen one and can do anything.

Luke's character at the end of the OT was entirely Jedi. It is not in character for him to want to break the order.

Because if taken the last scene as absolute, him and Ben looked into each other's eyes for a lusty old time. Luke never said anything until after Ben summoned the saber and locked up. He could have immediately turned off the saber before or while Ben was turning around and backed up for one.
"He immediately regretted his saber turning on"
Then probably don't stand there with it on standing over a child.

Luke blamed the Jedi for letting Sidious rise to power. And used it as an example to how flawed the Jedi were. There is no way this aligns with OT Luke when he saw hope and the Jedi way turn Anakin against Palpatine.

TFA was questionable too, but praising how bold TLJ was doesn't speak to how much it was put in a corner. And saying it dealt TLJ a bad hand doesn't instill a confidence in your arguments.

Originally posted by Galan007
-The first flashback was Luke's truth: he just went to talk, and Ben freaked out and attacked him for no reason.

-The second flashback was Ben's truth: Luke legitimately attacked him, so he just defended himself.

-The third flashback was the truth: Luke sensed Ben's future, and saw that he could not be swayed/turned from the dark side. Luke's first thought was that he needed to end the imminent threat, so he ignited his lightsaber... But instantly stopped himself and regretted the thought of killing an innocent child/his nephew. Even though Luke was never *actually* going to hurt him, Ben still awoke to see his Master holding an ignited saber above him, felt betrayed, and attacked out of fear. We all saw it the first time.

The problem is the third cutscene cut away from Luke's angle so it's hard to tell if he simply deflected, or attacked. A better quality or an urge to rewatch the movie would solve this.

Ultimately it doesn't matter though. The context of it in the first place doesn't speak well of abiding by Luke's prior characterization. And slowly reaching for his lightsaber and staring at it while it's on aren't the greatest representation of an incontrollable involuntary reaction.

Though he was going to kill him - however brief the thought was - that was the intent. That was what came out when Ben turned around. That was what came out when he turned the lightsaber on.

But here's the question:

Do you agree that that scene was in character for what Luke should be? And should Luke be above such involuntary actions like thinking about killing his nephew, and showing the weapon to do so?

Galan007

Originally posted by One Big Mob
The problem is the third cutscene cut away from Luke's angle so it's hard to tell if he simply deflected, or attacked. A better quality or an urge to rewatch the movie would solve this. Yeah, rewatch the third flashback if you're so inclined, because it's not really that hard to tell. Luke's saber was ignited, but he definitely wasn't attacking Ben... Especially when you consider his narrative during the flashback...

Luke: " would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become... And for the briefest moment I thought I could stop it *ignites his lightsaber* It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence *stands woefully staring at his saber* And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him *Ben summons his saber and attacks; Luke defends*"

Originally posted by One Big Mob
But here's the question:

Do you agree that that scene was in character for what Luke should be? And should Luke be above such involuntary actions like thinking about killing his nephew, and showing the weapon to do so? 'In character' is a relative term.

Was Luke at all portrayed as I would've liked him to be? Definitely not. I was hoping that we'd finally get to see Grand Master Luke "Force-God" Skywalker in all his glory(admittedly, I was biased/tainted by Legends material)... But instead we got an angry hermit who shunned the Jedi(and the Force) all together, and was just rotting on some remote island, waiting to die... F*ck the galaxy's problems.

That said, I understand the logic behind him thinking about killing Ben. The scene made it clear that Luke didn't have the power/skill to keep Ben on the Jedi path... Luke sensed nothing but darkness in Ben's future. Killing him would have certainly been for the betterment of the galaxy, but ultimately Luke just couldn't bring himself to kill su familia.

The act of killing in an of itself isn't in violation of the Jedi Code, so long as it is warranted... Pretty much any noteworthy Jedi in galactic history has killed *someone*. Padawan Kenobi was Knighted after they thought he'd killed Maul in TPM, they threw a party for Anakin after he killed Dooku in RotS, Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Anakin/Vader, while he tried to kill Palpatine in RotS, etc. etc. etc.

So no, I can't condemn Luke's rationale there -- it was for the proverbial 'greater good', after all. The real question is if Ben would have still turned to the dark side if Luke hadn't done that... Was Luke the Shatterpoint of Ben's downfall..?

Nephthys

Luke barely stopped himself from killing Vader after going on a berserk frenzy against him. People seriously idealise the man, to think that he couldn't have a momentary lapse in restraint.

Rockydonovang

Luke doesn't break from the order, he essentially gives Rey his blessing to reinvent it. Again, that's consistent with Luke rejecting jedi teachings regarding love and using it to redeem Vader

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, rewatch the third flashback if you're so inclined, because it's not really that hard to tell. Luke's saber was ignited, but he definitely wasn't attacking Ben... Especially when you consider his narrative during the flashback...

Luke: " would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become... And for the briefest moment I thought I could stop it *ignites his lightsaber* It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence *stands woefully staring at his saber* And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him *Ben summons his saber and attacks; Luke defends*"

'In character' is a relative term.

Was Luke at all portrayed as I would've liked him to be? Definitely not. I was hoping that we'd finally get to see Grand Master Luke "Force-God" Skywalker in all his glory(admittedly, I was biased/tainted by Legends material)... But instead we got an angry hermit who shunned the Jedi(and the Force) all together, and was just rotting on some remote island, waiting to die... F*ck the galaxy's problems.

That said, I understand the logic behind him thinking about killing Ben. The scene made it clear that Luke didn't have the power/skill to keep Ben on the Jedi path... Luke sensed nothing but darkness in Ben's future. Killing him would have certainly been for the betterment of the galaxy, but ultimately Luke just couldn't bring himself to kill su familia.

The act of killing in an of itself isn't in violation of the Jedi Code, so long as it is warranted... Pretty much any noteworthy Jedi in galactic history has killed *someone*. Padawan Kenobi was Knighted after they thought he'd killed Maul in TPM, they threw a party for Anakin after he killed Dooku in RotS, Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Anakin/Vader, while he tried to kill Palpatine in RotS, etc. etc. etc.

So no, I can't condemn Luke's rationale there -- it was for the proverbial 'greater good', after all. The real question is if Ben would have still turned to the dark side if Luke hadn't done that... Was Luke the Shatterpoint of Ben's downfall..? I understand the pondering of thinking about killing him.
The issue is standing over him like a rapist about to do so or having to stop yourself. That is not Luke.

It is exactly that difference. I'm sure everyday a guy like yourself thinks about raping many gals. But you do not (probably) stand over bedsides with your weiner out crying that you made a mistake.

I have no issue with Jedi killing. Afterall a large point I made is Luke believed in Anakin and redeemed him in Jedi eyes by throwing an old man down a well. The issue is, those are usually well deserved deaths. Jedi are not supposed to be cold blooded killers to a point where they could be justified in "killing Hitler" when he was a baby.

Had Ben went about the temple slaying kids for no reason and Luke confronted him, it'd be another story. By all means kill his face. But at that stage in time it couldn't have been justified in him doing it. Hence him making a mistake.

A mistake I don't believe to follow in what we know of Lucas Skywalkerstein.

Also it's fully possible Luke became his own grandpa there. In that the darkness he sensed was due to his own actions. He jumped the saber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke barely stopped himself from killing Vader after going on a berserk frenzy against him. People seriously idealise the man, to think that he couldn't have a momentary lapse in restraint. Considering I'm the only one arguing one side, you should probably read the side before jumping to assumptions.

There's a difference between being overwhelmed by anger in a fight as a Jedi Knight when Vader finds out about Luke's sister and saying she's into all sorts of nasty shit, and arming yourself against a sleeping child while being the Grand Master Jedi who can turn people from the Darkside and facedown ultimate evil.
He also had the wherewithal to stop himself and not kill Vader when he had full rights to. As well as standing up to Palpatine after clearing his mind.

He's not perfect, but he should be far removed from such outbursts.

Nephthys

I wasn't even talking about you in particular. Its a stupid thing that just keeps coming up.

The difference is that Luke realised what he was doing and stopped almost instantly in Bens room while he went Boo Radley on Vader. Other than that it was a similar moment of being overwhelmed by emotion. He saw a glimpse of Ben destroying the Jedi and reacted without thinking. It happens, he's only human.

Beniboybling

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke barely stopped himself from killing Vader after going on a berserk frenzy against him. People seriously idealise the man, to think that he couldn't have a momentary lapse in restraint. Which is exactly what the movie riffs on, like Rey they only see the "legend", not the human being behind it. thumb up

Now in regards to the article...Sound spot on to me. eek!

Rockydonovang

I'm not being threatened and I think Rey and Leia did great, Finn's new love interest was still a terrible addition to the movie as it detracted from the main story of the movie which was worthy of all of the movie's focus.

Galan007

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I have no issue with Jedi killing. Afterall a large point I made is Luke believed in Anakin and redeemed him in Jedi eyes by throwing an old man down a well. The issue is, those are usually well deserved deaths. Jedi are not supposed to be cold blooded killers to a point where they could be justified in "killing Hitler" when he was a baby. You're acting like Luke actually tried to kill Ben, though. He didn't. He had a momentary lapse in judgement that amounted to little more than igniting his lightsaber, before realizing that he just couldn't do it. Much like he did against Vader, Luke stopped himself before he went down a dark path.

Also, the entire Jedi Council agreed to pair Quinlan Vos with Asajj Ventress, and send them on a mission to assassinate Count Dooku in cold blood. So yeah, the Jedi aren't always portrayed as these infallible beings of the light... Even in their glory days, they made shit decisions occasionally. /shrug

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't even talking about you in particular. Its a stupid thing that just keeps coming up.

The difference is that Luke realised what he was doing and stopped almost instantly in Bens room while he went Boo Radley on Vader. Other than that it was a similar moment of being overwhelmed by emotion. He saw a glimpse of Ben destroying the Jedi and reacted without thinking. It happens, he's only human. Because he wasn't actively being taunted by his father with sister threats while swinging a red cock of death at him threatening to kill him, while being beside a dirty old man that's a nexus of evil that keeps chiming in with crazy old man shit.

And he also wasn't a young guy with a reconstructed face with direct motive to currently save everyone he loses and if he doesn't he's failed completely and everyone will die in minutes.

Being human is correct. But when he was human against Vader he was going through some really heavy shit that recently watched his master die while only being a Jedi Knight.

Contrast that with sensing evil from a sleeping child in a relatively peaceful time.

Nephthys

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because he wasn't actively being taunted by his father with sister threats while swinging a red cock of death at him threatening to kill him, while being beside a dirty old man that's a nexus of evil that keeps chiming in with crazy old man shit.

And he also wasn't a young guy with a reconstructed face with direct motive to currently save everyone he loses and if he doesn't he's failed completely and everyone will die in minutes.

Being human is correct. But when he was human against Vader he was going through some really heavy shit that recently watched his master die while only being a Jedi Knight.

Contrast that with sensing evil from a sleeping child in a relatively peaceful time.

He was also actively trying to restrain himself in that situation, whereas with Ben he was totally shocked by what he sensed from his nephew and reacted on instinct.

Luke had just sensed that Ben could destroy the revitalised Jedi that he'd worked so hard to rebuild and had a knee-jerk response to try and prevent that. But sure, he reacted badly and then a second later when he actually thought about what he was doing he instantly stopped himself.

Finding out that your own nephew is a monster is some pretty heavy shit as well you know. If I walked in on a family member talking about killing jews I'd probably react strongly as well.

Luke was trying to restrain himself from Vader's taunts and snapped whereas he had a instinctive reaction to reading Ben's mind and quickly stopped himself.

You're being silly.

Kurk

Who reignited this dumpster-fire of a debate?

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Galan007
You're acting like Luke actually tried to kill Ben, though. He didn't. He had a momentary lapse in judgement that amounted to little more than igniting his lightsaber, before realizing that he just couldn't do it. Much like he did against Vader, Luke stopped himself before he went down a dark path.

Also, the entire Jedi Council agreed to pair Quinlan Vos with Asajj Ventress, and send them on a mission to assassinate Count Dooku in cold blood. So yeah, the Jedi aren't always portrayed as these infallible beings of the light... Even in their glory days, they made shit decisions occasionally. /shrug For all intents and purposes he did though. Or more accurately he was ready to kill him. And lighting a giant humming flare off isn't exactly subtle. Had the thought not fleeted, he would have cut little Adam Driver's nose in twixt. And I don't think it's in character for him to have his weiner out over a child. Saber.
He's been down that path and came out ahead.

Vos was seen as crazy even before becoming a Master. He was questionable to say the least. Though I'm glad you agree it was a shit decision. Vos was also the guy who basically implied he would have killed all the Hutts had Kenobi not been at his side.
Though again, I keep getting thrown comparisons where it is of a being of great evil in desperate times vs sensing potential in a sleeping child.

Might as well throw Mace trying to kill Palpatine into the mix and Anakin saying it's not the Jedi way (and then...)

I think another Jedi getting to that point would have been feasible. But with what Luke has faced, I think it's a large leap to have gotten where he did. Luke faced the two absolute worst people in the galaxy and had him redeem one of them by killing the other (both). After facing that it being his first reaction to arm himself against a sleeping child seems far fetched.

Galan007

Originally posted by One Big Mob
For all intents and purposes he did though. For all intents and purposes, he did not though.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Vos was seen as crazy even before becoming a Master. He was questionable to say the least. Though I'm glad you agree it was a shit decision. Vos was also the guy who basically implied he would have killed all the Hutts had Kenobi not been at his side. Granted, Vos was essentially the Martin Riggs of the Jedi Order, but he was still a highly respected(and valued) Jedi Master... And remember: the Jedi Council made the decision to send him on the assassination mission with Ventress, not Vos himself.

The point is that ANY Jedi(even the entire Council at the height of their power) can have a lapse in judgement/ethics... It's not limited to Luke.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I think another Jedi getting to that point would have been feasible. But with what Luke has faced, I think it's a large leap to have gotten where he did. Luke faced the two absolute worst people in the galaxy and had him redeem one of them by killing the other (both). Luke's initial reaction was to attack an "unarmed" Palpatine in a fit of rage, though:
https://i.imgur.com/zXPvyxy.jpg

...It's not like he knew Vader would block at the last second -- Luke was legit trying to kill Palps out of anger.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
After facing that it being his first reaction to arm himself against a sleeping child seems far fetched. Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

Without condoning...or condemning...I understand Luke's initial rationale behind wanting to kill Ben -- the alternative, as he saw it, was far worse than the deed itself. That said, Luke still stopped himself before ever *actually* trying to harm him, so he ultimately still held true to his values... And that's what it seems like you're not acknowledging.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was also actively trying to restrain himself in that situation, whereas with Ben he was totally shocked by what he sensed from his nephew and reacted on instinct.

Luke had just sensed that Ben could destroy the revitalised Jedi that he'd worked so hard to rebuild and had a knee-jerk response to try and prevent that. But sure, he reacted badly and then a second later when he actually thought about what he was doing he instantly stopped himself.

Finding out that your own nephew is a monster is some pretty heavy shit as well you know. If I walked in on a family member talking about killing jews I'd probably react strongly as well.

Luke was trying to restrain himself from Vader's taunts and snapped whereas he had a instinctive reaction to reading Ben's mind and quickly stopped himself.

You're being silly. Of which he has more self controlled than that. And he specifically went there in the night to see if Ben had the darkside in him because he sensed some crazy shit going on with him. It wasn't like he was implanted those visions against his will.

He went in there to read his mind just like he went in there to redeem Vader. Don't try and tell me he wouldn't have tried to restrain himself from what he saw. He's the one who knew the possibilities.
And he reacted this way against a defenseless innocent child at the time. Not a giant robotdad threatening him with a lightsaber and everyone he knew... with actual very real and quite urgent threats.

Would you walk in on that family member sleeping and cock a gun back though?

I realize what he was doing, but you saying things like "knee jerk reaction" and "reacting badly" don't exactly speak in ways to act like I am being silly. Nor does saying things like it only being instinct like he's an animal with no self control and therefore "out of character" help to prove he was in character.

It doesn't matter how short it was. It doesn't matter if Palpatine kills people in their sleep. All I'm saying is it was out of character for him, and it basically started Kylo down a bad path. The direct path he wanted to avoid. And Luke should have been better prepared than this especially with decades more Jedi training than what he had against Vader.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Galan007
For all intents and purposes, he did not though.

Granted, Vos was essentially the Martin Riggs of the Jedi Order, but he was still a highly respected(and valued) Jedi Master... And remember: the Jedi Council made the decision to send him on the assassination mission with Ventress, not Vos himself.

The point is that ANY Jedi(even the entire Council at the height of their power) can have a lapse in judgement/ethics... It's not limited to Luke.

Luke's initial reaction was to attack an "unarmed" Palpatine in a fit of rage, though:
https://i.imgur.com/zXPvyxy.jpg

...It's not like he knew Vader would block at the last second -- Luke was legit trying to kill Palps(and for good reason.)

Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

Without condoning...or condemning...I understand Luke's initial rationale behind wanting to kill Ben. That said, Luke still stopped himself before ever *actually* trying to harm him, so he ultimately still held true to his values... And that's what it seems like you're not acknowledging. You don't activate your insta killing weapon without the intent to kill. He didn't want to hurt him, he just turned on his lightsaber to see if that was a fly in the corner. He stopped himself from doing it, but his first intention was to kill Kylo. That much is obvious.
In fact, you literally posted a summary that said he did
Luke:_" would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become... And for the briefest moment I thought I could stop it *ignites his lightsaber* It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence *stands woefully staring at his saber* And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him *Ben summons his saber and attacks; Luke defends*"

He stopped himself before he pulled the pushed the one shot kill button. But that doesn't mean he didn't try. And arguing this is severe semantics. He didn't try and kill him, he just pulled out his lightsaber and stood over him while he was sleeping. I didn't try to kill the police, I was just pointing a gun at them. Makes no difference.
He didn't swing, but the thought very much occured.

Vos was a wildcard, I agree. And I understand the Jedi endorsed it. The fact that you personally called it a shit decision meant I don't care. Comparing shit decisions to shit decisions doesn't mean one is automatically correct.

The point is, all of these are thought about highly with heavy debate and in desperate times against things that committed great evil. Not sleeping children that have bad juju. I know the Jedi aren't perfect, but they also aren't instinctual animals. Nor do I think any would endorse killing innocent children with bad thoughts.

So me saying all these comparisons aren't the same merits another one against the most evil being in the galaxy? Do you want to just argue against my original posts as well like Vader/Palpatine wasn't brought up already?
Palpatine was telling Luke that he, as a fully evil man was going to kill all his friends and there was absolutely nothing he could do about it because he was - for lack of a better term - invincible at the time, and his friends were running into a trap, and everyone he knew was going to die immediately. Then he was tempting him with the darkside like he's done before to others, and taunting Luke with it while telling him to kill him.
Ben was saying, I'm sleeping and I have bad thoughts.

I am acknowledging it though. Don't play that shit against me, you know who I am. What I'm saying is he went too far. I have literally stated and made examples about where the line is. You think me making that rape comparison was only for giggles? It's an extreme version of it (though not really since both actions you can't take back). There's a fine line between thoughts and actions. Luke should be at a level where he can seperate the two.
The fact that his action immediately caused the death of a bunch of Jedi and ruined his order say he went too far.

I have no problem with the Jedi having unclean thoughts. I have no problem with wanting to kill psycho babies. The problem I have is Luke was an indoor wind gust away from killing his nephew. Luke has went down that path and pulled back someone who's gone farther than almost anyone else. You're telling me he can't stop himself from slowly reaching for his saber and staring at it for a while? That he can't turn the thing off and try and reason with the kid in the 10 or so seconds he stood around like an idiot? That he can't deal with it in a training session? The fact that he went there in the first place is sketchy.

"If it were me..." I would have cut Adam Drivers throat out. That's irrelevant. I haven't been at the apex of evil and pulled someone back from it to bring a balance to the entire force.

Him stopping himself = good. Him igniting his lightsaber = not great.

Nephthys

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Of which he has more self controlled than that. And he specifically went there in the night to see if Ben had the darkside in him because he sensed some crazy shit going on with him. It wasn't like he was implanted those visions against his will.

He went in there to read his mind just like he went in there to redeem Vader. Don't try and tell me he wouldn't have tried to restrain himself from what he saw. He's the one who knew the possibilities.
And he reacted this way against a defenseless innocent child at the time. Not a giant robotdad threatening him with a lightsaber and everyone he knew... with actual very real and quite urgent threats.

Would you walk in on that family member sleeping and cock a gun back though?

I realize what he was doing, but you saying things like "knee jerk reaction" and "reacting badly" don't exactly speak in ways to act like I am being silly. Nor does saying things like it only being instinct like he's an animal with no self control and therefore "out of character" help to prove he was in character.

It doesn't matter how short it was. It doesn't matter if Palpatine kills people in their sleep. All I'm saying is it was out of character for him, and it basically started Kylo down a bad path. The direct path he wanted to avoid. And Luke should have been better prepared than this especially with decades more Jedi training than what he had against Vader.

More self controlled than what? He lost his self control in both instances. And as Galan pointed out he also tries to strike Sidious down in anger previously. He went to see what was up with him but he was shocked by the extent of Bens corruption. Up to that point he probably thought he could be easily redeemed. He had those visions and freaked out as anyone easily could have.

Its literally spelled out that Luke was completely shocked by Snokes total corruption of Ben. I don't know why you're trying to argue this point, its literally what happens. If you want to try and argue against the movie I don't think you'll get anywhere. And he had no idea he'd have to restrain himself, it hadn't even crossed his mind. He was completely shocked. You keep on pointing out that Ben was "a defenseless innocent child" as if that isn't the entire goddamn point. Obviously it was a huge mistake, congratulations you figured out the plot of the movie.

If I snuck in and found out they planned to shoot up my school I'd immediately think about stopping them.

It isn't like I'm just saying those things, that is actually what happens in the movie. I don't know why you're complaining about it, Luke factually has a momentary bad reaction and then restrains himself. And as I have pointed out, it isn't out of character for him to react emotionally in the moment. Yes, it started Kylo down the wrong path. That's why it was such a huge mistake that he fled to an island in shame. That's the plot of the movie.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Nephthys
More self controlled than what? He lost his self control in both instances. And as Galan pointed out he also tries to strike Sidious down in anger previously. He went to see what was up with him but he was shocked by the extent of Bens corruption. Up to that point he probably thought he could be easily redeemed. He had those visions and freaked out as anyone easily could have.

Its literally spelled out that Luke was completely shocked by Snokes total corruption of Ben. I don't know why you're trying to argue this point, its literally what happens. If you want to try and argue against the movie I don't think you'll get anywhere. And he had no idea he'd have to restrain himself, it hadn't even crossed his mind. He was completely shocked. You keep on pointing out that Ben was "a defenseless innocent child" as if that isn't the entire goddamn point. Obviously it was a huge mistake, congratulations you figured out the plot of the movie.

If I snuck in and found out they planned to shoot up my school I'd immediately think about stopping them.

It isn't like I'm just saying those things, that is actually what happens in the movie. I don't know why you're complaining about it, Luke factually has a momentary bad reaction and then restrains himself. And as I have pointed out, it isn't out of character for him to react emotionally in the moment. Yes, it started Kylo down the wrong path. That's why it was such a huge mistake that he fled to an island in shame. That's the plot of the movie.

Half of your points are you pretending I'm arguing against the movie. I am not arguing against the movie. My entire point is that it was out of character for Luke and went over the line. Among some of my other original points, but no one actually read what I wrote, they just jumped in. Hence shit like Palpatine and Vader being presented to me like it's some new point.
My original argument was that Luke was shit on in the movie, him acting out of character was part of it while The Lost acted like being a child murderer would have been ok had it happened (paraphrasing). And him acting out of character had more to do with it than him trying to kill a child, but I digress, here we are. Being accused of going against the movie by people who can't even read the argument yet want to jump right in.

I fully accept what happened in the movie. I never said something didn't happen or doesn't count. I'm saying it did happen and it doesn't jive with what we previously thought of Luke.

That being said, let's go with it. I will soon be getting my laptop since I'm tired of phone typing, in a way to better explain myself. I probably made a typo too if you guys want to hop in on it as well.

More self control than slowly grabbing his lightsaber and igniting it. There's quite a window to stopping it in that timeframe. There's quite a window for him to stop holding his lightsaber at Ben. There's quite a window to have not even tried it in the first place for that matter.

"The movie said it, not me"

Yes, I know he was shocked. I am not arguing that. There's a difference between being shocked and immediately threatened by present danger though. The fact that he held himself together so long in the OT prove he can keep it together for quite some time. Luke knew Kylo was a threat DOWN THE LINE, he was not immediately in danger like the other times he lashes out against present evil.

And yes, he was going in there in the night armed to read Ben's mind, but he had no idea he'd have to restrain himself? He wasn't going in there to get the secret to Ben's titty milk cheesecake, he was going in there to tell how bad he was. That's not something you do in an impulsive state.

And why would a defenseless innocent child be relevant? Would it be because that's what he was? Was it because you in this post just compared him to Palpatine's reaction from Luke? Why would I feel the need to repeat this I wonder?
I know what the point was, I covered the point. The problem is, I still feel it was out of character for Luke to do this. You guys continuing to say it was a bad idea, instinctual, Jedis make shit decisions, knee jerk, and whatever other way you want to spin it don't exactly throw me in the other direction with this.
Especially when it personally leads Kylo down that path, and hence why I bring it up. Because it was a really bad idea.

Luke's previous outbursts were against present evil right now, threatening him and all his friends right to his face. Yoda/Obi Wan told him Vader couldn't be redeemed and in general was a piece of shit. Luke still tried. And even from this irredeemable piece of shit, it took immense prodding to set Luke off. Luke helped this man get back to the lightside.
Ben shocked him with visions of the future. The Empire was essentially holding everyone he ever knew hostage and telling Luke they'd pull the trigger, now.

Even if you don't think Luke seriously thinking about killing his nephew was out of place, he gave up. He gave up at the time. He gave up years later, and he gave up until Rey and Yoda showed him a different light. Is this out of character?

If after the OT someone came to you and told you Luke would turn his saber on on his nephew in his sleep because he sensed immense evil after having sensed little things would you be like "That sounds like Luke all right"?

S_W_LeGenD

To be honest, J. J. Abrams should keep his mouth shut.

I enjoyed TLJ but I cannot presume that everybody will enjoy it and/or praise every aspect of it.

Galan007

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You don't activate your insta killing weapon without the intent to kill. He didn't want to hurt him, he just turned on his lightsaber to see if that was a fly in the corner. He stopped himself from doing it, but his first intention was to kill Kylo. That much is obvious.
In fact, you literally posted a summary that said he did
Luke:_" would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become... And for the briefest moment I thought I could stop it *ignites his lightsaber* It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence *stands woefully staring at his saber* And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him *Ben summons his saber and attacks; Luke defends*" K? I have literally acknowledged...in every single post of mine...that Luke THOUGHT about killing Ben. However, that thought was extremely short-lived, as in the very next sentence Luke says: "...It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence."

Originally posted by One Big Mob
He stopped himself before he pulled the pushed the one shot kill button. But that doesn't mean he didn't try. And arguing this is severe semantics. He didn't try and kill him, he just pulled out his lightsaber and stood over him while he was sleeping. I didn't try to kill the police, I was just pointing a gun at them. Makes no difference.
He didn't swing, but the thought very much occured. First off, Luke did NOT "try" to kill Ben -- thinking about the deed =/= attempting it. On that note, you're acting as though Luke *thinking* about killing Ben is just as bad as him *actually* doing it. That couldn't be more incorrect.

I might *think* about killing anyone who would pay money to go to a Nickelback concert(cuz it's f*cking Nickelback), but that certainly doesn't make me a mass murderer irl.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Vos was a wildcard, I agree. And I understand the Jedi endorsed it. The fact that you personally called it a shit decision meant I don't care. Comparing shit decisions to shit decisions doesn't mean one is automatically correct. Again, that instance merely illustrates the fact that ANY Jedi(even seasoned and highly respected Masters like Yoda and Mace) can become desperate enough to do shit they otherwise might never consider... And that's the point.

For the briefest of moments Luke *thought* about killing Ben because he sensed his future -- sensed all the pain and suffering he would cause. However, Luke ultimately could not bring himself to pull the proverbial trigger, and instantly regretted his decision... As I mentioned above, he certainly isn't the first Jedi who has been that desperate, and he likely won't be the last. Difference is, Luke ultimately showed a LOT of restraint where others may not have.

Dunno, I guess that part of Luke's characterization just didn't bother me as much as it did you. /shrug

One Big Mob

Originally posted by Galan007
K? I have literally acknowledged...in every single post of mine...that Luke THOUGHT about killing Ben. However, that thought was extremely short-lived, as in the very next sentence Luke says: "...It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence."

First off, Luke did NOT "try" to kill Ben -- thinking about the deed =/= attempting it. On that note, you're acting as though Luke *thinking* about killing Ben is just as bad as him *actually* doing it. That couldn't be more incorrect.

I might *think* about killing anyone who would pay money to go to a Nickelback concert(cuz it's f*cking Nickelback), but that certainly doesn't make me a mass murderer irl.

Again, that instance merely illustrates the fact that ANY Jedi(even seasoned and highly respected Masters like Yoda and Mace) can become desperate enough to do shit they otherwise might never consider... And that's the point.

For the briefest of moments Luke *thought* about killing Ben because he sensed his future -- sensed all the pain and suffering he would cause. However, Luke ultimately could not bring himself to pull the proverbial trigger, and instantly regretted his decision... As I mentioned above, he certainly isn't the first Jedi who has been that desperate, and he likely won't be the last. Difference is, Luke ultimately showed a LOT of restraint where others may not have.

Dunno, I guess that part of Luke's characterization just didn't bother me as much as it did you. /shrug It's as far away from thought as it is from trying in that instance. I just lack the word for it for some reason. Attempted try?
It is equivalent to going into someone's room with a gun and firing it into the ceiling for a Jedi. You did not swing, but it passed thought. Whatever you want to call it, it was stupid.

Had he just sat there holding the saber it'd be one thing. That is thought. The fact that he ignited a flashlight in the room is another. That is action. Had he swung, that is try. So, he acted at the very least.

And no, I don't think it's as bad. That comes from you homos who keep throwing around Jedi killings like it would possibly exempt Luke killing him. My thoughts on the issue are different than my reactions to your examples.
And what I compared it to was trying to kill and what Luke did, not the actual act of murdering. That's why I said "I didn't try and kill the police, I just pointed the gun at them". It really makes no difference in Luke's portrayal, and how Ben saw him. It's simply semantics at that point. Luke's act was sketchy enough. Adding two more arsehole points doesn't change it too much. It was still something that shouldn't have happened.
Luke sitting there holding the lightsaber would have been a perfectly acceptable thing to show his conflict, but there needed to be something deeper to skip fleshing out Ben's backstory. It was cheap. It was a leapfrog to character development at the cost of another.

Though I would hope you'd go past thinking on the Nickleback slayings.

Desperation is not something I'd attribute to Luke. Like I said before, it was a "kill baby Hitler". What the Jedi did was "kill sleeping Hitler". It's a moral issue, and one the Jedi apparently condone, and one I don't think any would condone. Even with lax morals, I think any of them would admit killing Baby Sheev would ultimately be too much. Though they'd most certainly watch him.
Again, I know he didn't kill Bendolf Skyhitler. I'm just following your examples to the conclusion. And I don't think you'd see any Jedi worth their salt standing over an (at the time) innocent child with a bladed sun thinking about killing.

Believe it or not it is one of the things that bugs me the least. It's just a way to highlight the difference. When you have to go back quite a few decades worth of Jedi training to find Luke lashing out at pure evil before redeeming his evil everyone-murdering father, to try and say him holding a blade over his nephew he sensed had evil is perfectly in character... I don't think it is.

Luke being a mopey "weak" pussy bothers me more than anything. It's like he learned nothing from the OT. He had character development, but he didn't need it. Hell he had more character development than Rey for ****s sake, only to revert back into his OT self. There were better ways to handle him. Even with the way he was handled, there were better lines to use as to why he was a coward.
And lots of other stuff. I just think the child threatening is the simplest to use, and what you guys were having issues with. Apparently not so simple.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke barely stopped himself from killing Vader after going on a berserk frenzy against him. People seriously idealise the man, to think that he couldn't have a momentary lapse in restraint. I agree and the criticisms of Luke are just based off their own pre watched film checklists. Since he wasn't the same Luke and actually evolved through experiences people want to act like Luke isn't like every other character who has appeared in multi film arcs.

quanchi112

One Big Mob

Suck my farts quan. Rey is taking out your boy Ren next movie.

quanchi112

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Suck my farts quan. Rey is taking out your boy Ren next movie. Snoke is my boy and he's beyond direct conflict. Only way you can take him out is while his guard is down.

Ren will probably kick the shit out of her but she will somehow prevail since the good guy/skank wins at the end.

One Big Mob

What if Finn pulled off the finisher? Either through a cheapshot or they reversed the last fight in TFA and Finn beat him down and killed him?

quanchi112

Originally posted by One Big Mob
laughing out loud

What if Finn pulled off the finisher? Either through a cheapshot or they reversed the last fight in TFA and Finn beat him down and killed him? Did you just steal my glorious sig ? I always thought well of my northern neighbors and never in my darkest nightmares would imagine they'd commit a ninth circle level sin and sig steal.

I do hope Finn dies and via Ren finishing what he started in episode seven.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you just steal my glorious sig ? I always thought well of my northern neighbors and never in my darkest nightmares would imagine they'd commit a ninth circle level sin and sig steal.

I do hope Finn dies and via Ren finishing what he started in episode seven. Yours is all the way to the left though. I don't even see the similarity tbh. erm

quanchi112

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Yours is all the way to the left though. I don't even see the similarity tbh. erm

I don't even know what I want anymore. The best I'm hoping for is a full on lightsaber battle.
Maybe redeem Luke, maybe... and probably should leave him alone. Maybe a shot at the end where he's making a tittymilk face and that's it.

Or the pull a Force Unleashed and go overboard with really stupid shit. Rey drops a star destroyer on Ren Yeah you're right mine is to the left and yours is to the right. Different Mauls altogether.

**** Luke Snoke stole the film. His voice, his robe, his pretense, his fingernails, his force rape of Rey with the, "Give me everything," line. Comes out digitally March 13 and you weren't here when I announced its my favorite Star Wars film slightly ahead of Rots. Rian Johnson "looped" me in with the Last Jedi.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah you're right mine is to the left and yours is to the right. Different Mauls altogether.

**** Luke Snoke stole the film. His voice, his robe, his pretense, his fingernails, his force rape of Rey with the, "Give me everything," line. Comes out digitally March 13 and you weren't here when I announced its my favorite Star Wars film slightly ahead of Rots. Rian Johnson "looped" me in with the Last Jedi. Yeah, I didn't recognize your Maul until I saw the words. thumb up

quanchi112

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Yeah, I didn't recognize your Maul until I saw the words. thumb up

I actually didn't mind it as much as I thought I would. I wouldn't say it was anywhere near the top, but not as bad as I thought. Snoke dying and toilet Luke were the only parts that really bothered me. Holdo was kind of annoying too but not as bad as I thought. Second viewing we'll see though.

Well I've seen it five times. To me it's this simple. Do you want one orgasm or multiple. As a man this is the only way we can ever experience the multi orgasm.

Snoke really is the Alpha and the Omega. Luke is that guy who despite making cucking look cool to degenerates and social misfits for decades has angered many because he's now rejected the way of the cuck. Until the end when he cucks one last time like a champ.

Rest Cuck Luke your fight is over.

The Lost

Okay, I have an absolutely enormous series of posts coming so I'm warning everyone now lol

The Lost

I think it is simple and that's likely why I see it parroted so much.

"Very seriously" would require consideration, careful thought, and... seriousness. He had a moment that passed like a "fleeting shadow" or whatever he says. This is obviously serious but compared to the other incidents, like the false interpretation told by Ben, where he's readily swinging at him? There is a difference to consider. "Somehow" knocking Luke out? Well, he had a roof dropped on him. That's probably enough to fill in your "somehow."

Loaded question. You assume I'd have an excuse. If he had killed him, I would've hated it but that's a silly hypothesis. Also, your analogy might be applicable if I had said, "He didn't really have a passing thought about killing him because he felt guilty."

This is a ridiculous point and showcases a lack of attention being paid to the film and this is another thing I constantly see. Luke knew already that Ben was being influenced by Snoke. So, you have a teen with an enormous power inside of him being trained by an incredibly powerful and evil dark-side user. Perhaps that's a reason to mope around? LOL

It is Snoke's fault so he is worthy of blame. Snoke had already poisoned Ben. He also did not attempt to kill his nephew, only briefly thought of it. He did not attempt it, he did not plan it, nothing. Luke was certainly responsible for contributing to Ben's final steps to the dark side but did he "shove" Ben to the dark side? Not according to the film:

"I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I had seen it in moments during his training... but then I looked inside and it was beyond anything I'd ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He who would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he would became and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow and I was left with shame and with consequence.

And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

Luke recognizes he made a mistake but his father was a Skywalker and had that potential and ran the galaxy with torment and oppression. Luke had seen this in Ben for a long time, knew Snoke was training him, and saw how Ben's darkness had grown beyond what Luke "could imagine."

Luke swings at unarmed Palpatine, almost kills his father for just threatening to turn his sister, and a passing thought that doesn't end in an attempt makes no sense? Hahaha wtf

Pointless. Moving on...

Luke was training Ben since he was a child. There's no reason to assume Luke wasn't speaking to him about this. However, he probably did that and it didn't stop him from being influenced by Snoke or being curious and wanting to explore the dark side further.

Luke was having a conversation with Sidious and attempted to murder him, whilst he was unarmed. Vader name-dropped his sister and threatened to turn her and Luke almost kills Vader. Luke gets frustrated, shows aggression, force chokes a Gamorrean, etc.

"No, it is." Right... so how? It wasn't serious contemplation or consideration from Luke, when it came to Ben. It was a passing thought. Keep in mind this is leagues less severe than attempting to kill an unarmed Sidious or cutting your father's hand off and struggling not to finish the job.

You're either being intentionally dishonest or, again, ignored TLJ. He didn't "just sense" the dark-side in him. He knew Snoke was influencing/poisoning him, felt growing darkness in his training, and saw that growing darkness had become something "beyond what he imagined." You're also confusing Star Wars with the real world, methinks. This is a universe where people can block others from being sensed, read intentions, get glimpses into the future, throw people around with an unseen force they can control, etc.

Luke is incredibly strong within the force, as shown in this film. His vision of the future was likely not an inaccurate one.

You keep on calling Ben a child but the destruction of Luke's temple happened circa 28 ABY. TLJ is 34 ABY, I believe. This made Ben at least 23 years old.

The Lost

You're not understanding. The Jedi Masters and those with any authority in the order, several times over, have encouraged using lethal force to deal with threatening entities in the SW universe, especially Luke's masters. This is what Luke has learned and has an instinct to take care of this with Ben.

Keep in mind you keep saying that these events are not the same and you're right, which is why the responses are different. Got Anakin running loose and murdering all of the Jedi with Sidious? Yoda is certain he must die and tells Kenobi to do it after serious consideration. Got Ben being influenced by a powerful darksider who could end up being the most powerful evil in the galaxy but hasn't done anything yet? You get a passing thought that you don't act on.

How are these not appropriate for the scale of what these masters were responding to? You've damaged your point here. Remember, Sidious was clouding the growing darkness from the Jedi. Luke can see this and it is a challenge to figure out how to handle it.

Strawman. I didn't apply that argument. I am explaining Luke's thought process and how this is consistent with his character. Also, I hate that I have to remind you of this again, but SW is not in the real world. No one has magical powers to sense what could happen in the future with accuracy or sense how "evil" someone is. In SW, this is a truth. Also, Luke's intent sharply contrasts that of Palpatine's. Palpatine did not want opposition or to have his position threatened an Luke did not another Palpatine on his hands running amok in the stars, enslaving the galaxy.

Also, which Jedi? Luke is not a traditional Jedi and was not raised within the order. Why would his way be the same as, say, the prequel film Jedi? That has NEVER been Luke. Jesus, man...

Oh, I doubt you would.

I literally never made this point. You can't argue, dude. Why all these point-by-point responses when you can't comprehend what I'm telling you? We're discussing a film here and it shouldn't be this hard...

Luke handling Ben is a legitimate dilemma. If he kicks him out, he goes straight to Snoke and begins tapping into his power with the dark side. That plan sucks. Luke obviously couldn't help him because Snoke's influence was too potent. Luke had been training him for years and Snoke was whispering in Ben's ear, yet Ben's darkness continued to grow.

It's not the "Sith way." It's just a bad thought. Luke knows this, which is why he ultimately regretted it and understands how he failed Ben. He's not perfect, which is what makes it interesting. I'm sorry you wanted the stale Qui-Gon-esque Luke who would NEVER be tempted to do anything drastic or was perfect and God-like but someone who wanted to not make SW another utterly generic romp decided differently, thank CHRIST.

Of course Luke is different. This does not mean it is out of character. We've jumped ahead YEARS in the SW universe and Luke is older and will have differences to the young man he was. And I'M making excuses? Self-awareness is not your friend right now.

You say I've spun a narrative but haven't explained adequately as to why. A series of large posts and this is what you bring to the table? Man, come on.

When did I say that Luke having a passing thought about killing his nephew was "okay?" You have to leave this strawman behind because it is annihilating the integrity of your arguments. Again, Luke's Jedi order is Luke's. If you're discussing recently, after the Temple incident, he's acting non-Jedi likely because he disagrees with their philosophy and thinks the "Jedi should end."

I am not making up narratives. I just paid attention. All I hear, everywhere online and even from some friends, is how out of character this is but the explanations always suffer, straight up are not there, or aren't sufficient. You're the one saying how Luke thought of killing Ben who was an "innocent child" but Ben was at MINIMUM TWENTY-THREE YEARS OF AGE.

The Lost

Luke "thinking that hardly?" Yeah, but...

"He who would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he would became and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow and I was left with shame and with consequence."

... you're wrong.

Also, keep in mind the redemption of Vader was joint effort by Luke and, well, obviously Vader himself. I would agree that it would be out of character for Luke to plan, seriously consider, weigh it, etc.

He didn't. He had a brief moment that passed and paid enormously for it.

ok lol

I don't think he should have at all. I'm saying if you have this vision, it's what you do. He is a leader. It's his duty and what he was taught by Yoda and Kenobi. Sure, he wasn't taught exactly, "If you have a feeling that your immensely powerful nephew is going to run the galaxy with a Sidious-esque dark-sider, and you have an intense vision about this and know he's being influenced by that figure, kill him before it gets out of control."

It's not binary. It's not, "Well, they either give him that exact piece of advice or they didn't teach this." Yoda and Kenobi both practiced that a means of dealing with individuals like Vader, Snoke, or Sidious is to murder them. Seriously. If they're that powerful and have that much influence, the only option is to extinguish their lives. Luke takes this lesson and applies it to a fresh circumstance but he's off about it.

In his position as a leader, it's not so farfetched that he'd even briefly consider it out of instinct. Remember what he's been trained to do all of his life when dealing with an enormously evil power and that power's influence on a dangerously force-strong Ben (who's a Skywalker).

I wasn't literally saying "he should go do this." It was to illustrate a point about having the power to foresee what is going to happen or getting insight into the trajectory of events. It was to explain Luke's thought process through devil's advocation. It is why I said I would only agree if Luke did it. It would be out of character and foolish, if he followed through. Remember, I was figuratively placing the reader in Luke's shoes. Here, see again:

"Having capabilities within the force to foresee millions dying from a dark-side threat, you terminate that threat regardless of it's personal cost. Keep in mind that when Luke has this vision, he has a responsibility that comes before his blood relation and his personal feelings as one of the few remaining galactic authorities/powers. That is why, when Luke sees this vision, his immediate instinct is to quell this rising menace and this is what a leader does. Ending danger before it becomes dangerous."

^ It's explaining what a man in his position ought to pursue as a potential avenue. "This is what a leader does" because it is. It's about the hardest possible choices dwelling in your mind. Luke recognizes this is a weakness of being in that authoritative position and Yoda provides great wisdom on Luke's mistake and being a leader in general:

"We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

The Lost

Luke was younger and more naive. How could you think shit like this is an excuse? It makes sense. Rey is reminiscent of Luke when he was young. "I can bring Kylo back, etc." Luke thinks this is absurd and then his character develops into understand that, although Kylo may never be a Jedi again or start actively pursuing the light, Luke believes Ben could still act and do something to attain some sort of redemption. Look at how Luke talks to Leia about him before he goes out there.

How have I tried to minimize the importance of the scene in TLJ just because I don't agree with you on what it represents or whether or not it is within Luke's character? I think it's one of the most importance scenes in the film, hence this massive argument concerning that scene. Lol?

No, it wasn't just to show Ben's evil but it surely did a solid job at doing that. You keep on saying Luke doesn't act like a Jedi but remember that Ben has been trained all of his life and was a Jedi and his "Jedi" response to Luke holding a lightsaber over him is to sack Luke's temple and murder a bunch of Jedi that weren't standing over him with a lightsaber ignited so, in the end, Luke wasn't thoroughly wrong about Ben.

Yes, Luke contributed to Ben's fall at that moment but it wasn't due to some consistent wrongdoing. Luke had a brief moment and made a mistake at the shittiest time, creating a perfect storm.

Dude, I agree with it having consequences that are dire. Like... what? Also, since "Obi-Wan Kenobi" is not just a synonym for "Luke Skywalker", perhaps he wouldn't have. They are different people and will have different approaches, instincts, and considerations for how to handle certain things. Kenobi and Yoda aren't better Jedi. Remember, they ruled in an era where they allowed almost all of the Jedi (and there was much more than Luke had) to become extinct, lost the flagship Jedi temple, lost the Republic, etc.

They handled Anakin poorly over the course of a lifetime, along with not having the strength or preparation to deal with Sidious' cunning and prowess. Luke may have ****ed up massively but his instinct told him to do something and, when you lead, you do it. Thankfully, he didn't, but he had that understanding and felt/saw that. The Jedi that came before Luke failed to do this so much more comprehensively than Luke ever did.

You mention how Kenobi and Yoda planning to kill Vader/Sidious was more drastic because of what they did? Keep in mind, those two and the Jedi council also allowed this to happen and it gave way to consequences that, as of so far, were much more serious than Luke's.

Twenty. ****ing. Three.

Also, Luke was not just weighing in dealing with Ben but what someone like Snoke could do with someone as force-strong as Ben. Luke was concerned he would have another ultimate evil on his hands in that instinctive moment. Surely you understand this.

Yeah, and Luke doesn't want that happening again. Don't you see?

Anyway, Luke nearly succumbs to Sidious' manipulation. You say what Luke does in TLJ is a "non-Jedi" thing to do yet Luke fell victim to Sidious' temptation so perhaps he's not the ideal Jedi you thought he was? Perhaps he's not a Qui-Gon? Luke has always been the closest to that "grey" area and wasn't conventionally trained as a Jedi. Also, Vader threatened his sister and, AGAIN, he goes off and nearly murders him. Luke almost loses it TWICE in that throne room. Now, faced with someone like Snoke who is seeking the power Sidious had and is grooming a powerful Skywalker, you're telling me it's SO ABSURD that Luke has a passing instinct to help suppress this by taking Ben's life?

I honestly don't understand how this is so foreign to some people.

Yes, they are different. His position was different and age has made him different. However, Luke is still Luke so he's not a different person in the literal sense, now is he? Also, two fits of rage. Also, Luke carefully considered this and was intently listening to Sidious and even Vader and flew off the handle. Those weren't just "moments." Luke heard Sidious out and swung at him. Luke listened to Vader and pummeled him onto his knees and cut his goddamn hand off.

Old man Luke? Has a brief thought. Go watch the film. You can see exactly how long it is by his facial expressions and his narration of the true events at the temple grounds. That is the difference between "Grand Wizard" Luke and Jedi Knight Luke because Jedi Knight Luke just might have gone through with it.

It's not, which is why the events are showcased and handled differently. However, Luke's thought isn't out of character. He's been taught that dealing with enormous galactic evil must be dealt with in a final manner. He instinctively applied this to a juxtaposing circumstance and it brought him great shame. It's completely, completely within his character.

Why would he be portrayed exactly like that? Luke was portrayed with humanity, age, experience, and trauma. This is a man whose friends have been screwed by the Empire. His father mutilated him and contributed to that, his nephew is being poisoned by another man who is trying to do what Sidious did to his father, etc.

Luke has not had an easy life and people wanted Luke in this film to just be this perfectly adjusted and unbreakable wise old man? How boring and deprived of reality that would have been... SW has needed something like this for a while and it didn't take a psychic to know a large portion of the SW audience wouldn't be prepared for it. It's a shame.

The Lost

Why? Luke had DONE this already and thought he won with some finality. When it turns out that these events were just reintroducing themselves into his life and into the galaxy again, it broke him. PLUS, on top of all of that, he helped contribute to it via his grave mistake with Ben on the temple grounds, which contributed to him losing another generation of Jedi which was the fate of those that came before him (PT-era Jedi Order).

And you ask why? LOL. It makes a tremendous amount of sense. Also, the circumstances aren't supposed to be similar. It's just that Luke's reaction makes more sense.

Obi-Wan and Yoda: We trained this Jedi who could end up being the most powerful Jedi ever and he has fallen to the Sith with another incredibly powerful entity and they've destroyed the Jedi and dominate the galaxy. What should we do? Train a jedi who could end up being the most powerful Jedi ever... See where this could go?

Now, Luke has ALL of that historical circumstance and comes across this ONCE AGAIN. After seeing that dealing with it could become terribly risky and nearly impossible, he instinctively sees a way out with Ben that leads to chaos and is incredibly brief. Then, after his error and seeing history repeat itself, he walks away. It makes sense. Yoda and Kenobi doing what caused the galaxy tremendous peril again makes less sense, even though they succeeded. It was about "faith" and "hope", remember. Those words littered the OT because they KNEW it wasn't the greatest course of action and it was likely they could fail.

Me: What Luke thought was right and he should've killed children.

^ Remember when I said that or something resembling it? I don't. I didn't. So knock it off. It's not a rationalization. You're failing to pay attention and have already shown you've been either incorrect or argued from a place of insustainability previously.

Also, Rey goes to the dark side in thought and Luke criticizes her for this sharply. Ben was being groomed by Snoke for years and Luke had to deal with that for a long time. Rey doesn't have that.

How nice and charitable of you. lol

"Likely" because he closed himself off? No, that's exactly why. He had abandoned and cut himself off from the force. It's discussed in the film. It's definitely why.

It's not one or the other. Let's leave that false dilemma in the garbage where it belongs. Luke didn't want to train her because he gave up AND because he didn't want to have another pupil turn.

Also, you've got shit in the wrong order. Luke senses that conflict and says "I've seen this power before" AFTER he decides to train her. He's still conflicted about it but obviously reflects about this, meets with Yoda, and comes to a separate conclusion about how he's handled things. Anyone who exhibits genuine wisdom knows that, sometimes, your perspective must go through changes.

Yet, you haven't demonstrated this, as I just demonstrated above.

No, not because "Rey proved him wrong." Luke's character is conflicted. He has an attachment to some of the ways of the Jedi but also thinks their institution is one that has classically failed far too many times. Yoda comes and reconciles his viewpoint regarding failure and how it can be USED as opposed to Luke allowing failure to use him.

Luke thinks the Jedi way needs to die only after Rey shows up? Yeah, except no. This happens after his failure with Ben. It's why he doesn't rebuild the order, it's why he's not doing anything related to the Jedi Order on his little island, and it's why he cut himself off from the force.

However, he realizes the force has presence and that Ben is lost but can still be influenced and perhaps, at the very least, walk away from the dark if he cannot turn back to the light. Yes, Luke did fail and the movie doesn't make this look good. It makes it look terrible and purposely so. Luke indirectly inspires Ben to fully commit to Snoke and the dark side. Luke recognizes this is his fault but does nothing with that. He dwells in the traumas of his life instead of owning his failure and THIS is what Yoda is teaching. For him to control and learn from it. Yoda is expressing that the Jedi are an idea and not just books, an order, or "laser swords."

Yet, Yoda was already hundreds of years old by the PT and failed to see Sidious' uprising, failed to see Anakin's fall, failed to prevent the destruction of the Jedi Order, failed to see the corruption of the Republic, and more. Shouldn't HE have been wise as well at that point?

Guess what? He was wise. So was Luke. "Wise" is not a synonym for "perfect." Yoda failed immensely and so it TAUGHT him immensely. Luke had more to be attached to. He had family connections that were corrupted or were being threatened and then lost that AGAIN through his failures.

Luke was a wise master, just like Yoda, but Luke has been through much and he handled it differently. It affected him differrently.

This isn't really an argument and is vague. I'm moving on.

Oh my God... Luke had flawed reasoning in every SW movie he has been in. He's not perfect. A character being perfectly reasonable isn't a requirement to make a good character in a film, book, or whatever. Also, your last question in that quote is quite loaded.

As for Old Luke not being like OLD Luke, this is a "yes and no" answer. I've explained it several times. Same individual, yet expressing differences due to age, experience, and everything else that comes with time passing.

The Lost

No, this isn't a given when this occurs but, in this film, it is.

"They wish to leave the past in the past to forge something new and better."

^ What I said earlier. That is what I mean by "the same coin." They share something in common (the coin) but approach it differently (the sides).

Come on, dude...

Yet, you've thoroughly failed to explain why. You think I am creating motivation because I disagree with yours. Yours is simple enough but simple does not mean correct or what was intended by the creators of the film.

You don't understand. Luke knows about this. He knows it's happened before and the galaxy was lost because of it. It takes a willing ignorance to think Luke hadn't discussed or considered that Ben could be redeemed but, when you say redeemed, it means you're AT LEAST indirectly acknowledging that Ben was already gone.

Luke knew this but when is Ben going to be redeemed? At the end, like Vader, after more people get wiped out and Snoke collects more influence, control, power, etc? The old Luke didn't go through this. The old Luke knew what happened to the Jedi in the PT and had a moment where he thought he may be able to COMPLETELY prevent that and people think it's nuts? Out of character? Luke was willing to end an already established evil Empire in the OT so, seeing it spiral all out of control AGAIN was too much and led to this brief instinct.

Luke realizes that cannot work (obviously) but the consequences surpass any attempt for him to find a new solution to the Snoke/Kylo/First Order problem so he flees into exile. Rey comes along and Luke is very wary and careful about how to deal with this but comes to an understanding that Rey could perhaps grow past this cycle and create something greater out of it.

Uh, no. Rey lost the fight with Luke. She knocks Luke on the head and Luke force pulls an antenna and outclasses her completely. Hits her, effortlessly blocks her advances, and disarms her before Rey has to introduce a lightsaber into the fight and this brazen behavior shocks Luke.

Despite your facetious comment, Luke discusses Snoke's influence in Kylo when he discussing what happened in the temple during the PAST so it's not indicative of his current feelings. Pay attention or watch the film again. Sheesh.

Luke assisted Rey but Yoda confirms that Rey has strong instincts toward the light. This is why Luke force projects to Kylo (among other reasons) and NOT Rey. Although, I doubt Luke is done training Rey (still a ninth movie coming) so there's that. Luke can do more through being one with the force now. He can guide Rey and criticize/try to help/harass Kylo. Luke knows this and knew he couldn't continue to train Rey in his conflicted state. It's why he refuses the lightsaber once more after their duel in the rain.

THIS is what makes Luke wise. He taught Rey some things but could also take something away from the Rey's youthful hope and understanding. It went BOTH ways. Your biggest problem is thinking motivations and character developments need to be either one thing or another and this has led you to misunderstand a great deal concerning this film.

Yes, he exiled himself because, once more, the Jedi were crushed and the galaxy was being threatened after he sacrificed so much and put himself on the line to save it. If that's not enough to walk away, EDUCATE me on what the **** is. Luke is older now and understands the contributing role that the Jedi had in allowing Sidious to do what he did. That's a part of growing up. "Oh, hey, I'm not who I am any longer because I got older and my perspectives have changed." Hahaha, WHAT. THE. ****.

He wasn't cowardly, dude. He was traumatized, especially considering he blames himself.

Child? Dude...

TWEEEEEEEEEEEENTTTTYYYYYY THHHHREEEEEEEEEEEE

Luke, in his old age, represents caution, wisdom, and the hope of his youth with the understanding of his aged maturity. THAT is what he conclusively balances by the end of TLJ, so there's your stage.

No one was prepared for a SW film to contain such nuance and this is lost in petty and usually inaccurate criticism.

Too bad.

One Big Mob

Warning: There's like 4 posts at least here
I ask that you read the end post (you'll know what it is) before you start replying. That's all. If you only read one post, probably make it that one as well.

Originally posted by The Lost
I think it is simple and that's likely why I see it parroted so much. I think it's a perfectly viable thing to see a problem with, both on the surface area and deeper within.

I hope I go in depth enough to show that. I do admit I was being simple, as I will explain later, but I feel the surface of that can be dived into as I'll attempt to show in probably the only example anyone will ever find of me "assuming" if you will.

Originally posted by The Lost
"Very seriously" would require consideration, careful thought, and... seriousness. He had a moment that passed like a "fleeting shadow" or whatever he says. This is obviously serious but compared to the other incidents, like the false interpretation told by Ben, where he's readily swinging at him? There is a difference to consider. "Somehow" knocking Luke out? Well, he had a roof dropped on him. That's probably enough to fill in your "somehow." Very serious as in going into his bedroom when he's sleeping armed in order to read his thoughts, and then slowly reaching for his saber while he activates it when his suspicions are confirmed.
In the time it takes him to do this, he was entirely serious, however brief.

I mean "somehow" as in Luke is supposed to be some all powerful force God (exaggerating, but you get my point), and he gets "killed" by some rubble. It doesn't leave the best taste in my mouth to see Luke at the height of his power being taken out 'so easily'. I'm sure even you have raised an eyebrow to that.

Originally posted by The Lost
Loaded question. You assume I'd have an excuse. If he had killed him, I would've hated it but that's a silly hypothesis. Also, your analogy might be applicable if I had said, "He didn't really have a passing thought about killing him because he felt guilty."
I did, you caught me. Like what I did a lot here, I was simply following these things to the conclusion (Obi Wan did this, Yoda did this). The conclusion that Luke kills him. By all means, a lot of these examples set up him killing Ben as being all right because other people conceivably did worse.

Originally posted by The Lost
This is a ridiculous point and showcases a lack of attention being paid to the film and this is another thing I constantly see. Luke knew already that Ben was being influenced by Snoke. So, you have a teen with an enormous power inside of him being trained by an incredibly powerful and evil dark-side user. Perhaps that's a reason to mope around? LOL But Luke was at peace though. I'm not saying there wasn't inner turmoil going around, I'm saying that for everyone but Ben, everyone was at peace for better or worse.

I think that's a reason to fight. And this is where motives differ. You believe it's acceptable for him to mope. I believe it's cause to fight. It's not black and white, and what I've been attempting to do this whole time is avoid looking into possible motivations, but instead using past instances to further my case. I'm not interested terribly in possible motivations, or interpretations of motivations, because I feel it can go everywhere. And one interpretation can go wildly off course as I've seen before. Not saying you are, but that is why I don't want to play that game (this is to also answer another later subject as well). I'm used to arguing comics, where things are either stated, or they don't exist, so this is new to me to say the least. I will try to be more open minded of your interpretations though as I previously (wrongly) assumed you were just making shit up with zero basis, but as this post has shown, you do have a basis. Not saying I agree of course with everything, but you certainly explained yourself better here.
In a black and white state, a lot of these are directly contradictory. You have to see that. The "simpleness" you talk about earlier, is black and white.

Now, with that said, I will try to get into this a little more in your realm, and a lot in mine. I will have to change things up a little bit I admit. Consider that a victory as you are making me think about this pretty in depth now, and not just on auto pilot and not while watching TLJ for the first time and writing a retort...
This has fully become interesting now, I will stow the "insults" as I see it's not as relevant here as to how it'd be if it were the comic forums. And I see we're just more morally different in how we see Luke, but I do feel the need to reply, not to combat you so much, as to prove my case better. So good job.

Anyway

Luke previously had all of his friends and family burned to death at the start of his journey to being a Jedi. This sparked something in him, a will to fight, a will to learn. Everything he previously knew was destroyed, and all he had was an old man to guide him that he heard was crazy. He never fell apart, he held strong. A little whiny, but still strong. This was Luke at his theoretical weakest and most reliant.
He lost a lot of people in the war, and never lost hope. He fell down and elevator shaft after getting beaten up by his dad and still called out to someone to help, because he still believed they were out there for him. His friends were there to help him. He was going to get killed by his dad in the first film, but his friends came in there to save him and he even put trust into the force to destroy the death star without panicking or giving up.
He lost Hoth and had hope that he'd find a great Jedi master. That Jedi master helped him stop from being a whiny little girl when things don't immediately go right.
He lost his friend and felt he could save him after however many years.
He had hope his friends would stop the shield reactor even though Palpatine assured him they were completely ****ed.
He had hope the whole time his father could be redeemed even though Obi Wan, and Yoda said it couldn't be done. By all accounts, far greater Jedi than him or his father.
Even after putting Vader on death's door, he still had hope he could be redeemed. Even after getting tortured by Sidious he still had hope his father would help him. He had hope the most fallen Jedi in recent history could come back and save him. Not only save him, but kill the ultimate evil.

And then right after this? His father died. And his friends destroyed something Palpatine assured him was impossible. His friends were strong enough to do impossible things. His father was strong enough to do an impossible task. And that proves Luke's faith in others was grounded in reality... or at least the reality that surrounds Luke. Luke lost a lot, but him and his gang also accomplished impossible odds. There's more I'm missing, but I trust this showed Luke's resolve and how it paid off.

So that is why I think he should have fought. You could say the Jedi Temple was the straw that broke the camel's back, but it can easily be flipped around to say it was just another obstacle that could be overcome. Something that was not beyond previous Luke's ability to endure however heinous.

I think Luke is a very strong character, and I don't think one event spread out over decades is enough to break him. He faced similar odds with no training, similar circumstances. The fact that he does eventually fight and start training again prove he could have overcome it. Prove that he made a mistake.

I realize failure was needed, but sometimes it's not. You can't always have failure and expect success. Luke was having a lot of failure until he relented to training Rey. Had Luke just did his original plan, he would have sat there and died with nothing getting done.

Had Luke got up and fought before the resistance got into so much power? I see no reason as to why he would have lost.

I do not see him moping as being in character. I think you could argue it was the straw, but I think it stands more in Luke's character to get up and stop it before it gets worse. Afterall, isn't that something that's used to try and paint him murdering his baby nephew Ben as being alright in morality terms? stick out tongue

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
It is Snoke's fault so he is worthy of blame. Snoke had already poisoned Ben. He also did not attempt to kill his nephew, only briefly thought of it. He did not attempt it, he did not plan it, nothing. Luke was certainly responsible for contributing to Ben's final steps to the dark side but did he "shove" Ben to the dark side? Not according to the film:

"I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I had seen it in moments during his training... but then I looked inside and it was beyond anything I'd ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He who would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he would became and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow and I was left with shame and with consequence.

And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

Luke recognizes he made a mistake but his father was a Skywalker and had that potential and ran the galaxy with torment and oppression. Luke had seen this in Ben for a long time, knew Snoke was training him, and saw how Ben's darkness had grown beyond what Luke "could imagine."

Luke swings at unarmed Palpatine, almost kills his father for just threatening to turn his sister, and a passing thought that doesn't end in an attempt makes no sense? Hahaha wtf
I realize Snoke was the reason for let's say Ben "teetering" on the edge of complete failure at that point in time. But the last part is equally as important as anything else in that section.
And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him.

Luke might have been the only thing holding Ben back from falling into a black hole at that stage. He might have been the only thing holding him back from complete collapse. And by might, I mean he was, because as soon as Ben realized he failed him, he went on a rampage. Had Luke not attempted what he did, it's unlikely Ren would have killed the Order the next day. It's questionable if he would have even done it, since it is entirely possible that Luke sensed everything that he shoved Kylo into. All Luke did was prove Snoke right. That his master would fail him, that his master would try and kill him had he sensed the darkside (largely due to Snoke himself, though maybe a little of Ben). Snoke set a trap, and Luke fell into it.

Ben was terrified when he saw Luke standing over him. You can't tell me that didn't deeply impact his decision. You can't tell me that that didn't prove Snoke right. Possibly the only person still holding Ben in the light turned on him. He failed Ben. He showed Ben that Luke was wrong, and therefore the lightside was wrong.

It'd be like a little boy at school who got bullied everyday, and the only thing he had to look forward to was his loving dad. One day his dad got a little too "loving" and pushed that child to the brink of insanity.
It is fully possible that that child would have turned out alright. But the only person he trusted in life turned on him and set him down a path he might not otherwise walk.

So we circle back to this. It is fully possible that Luke sensed the future in Kylo that he himself "shoved" Kylo into that he might not have otherwise. And we don't know because that exact thing happened. It is always possible that Kylo would teeter that line as well, but as long as he doesn't get betrayed by the only good thing in his life, it is possible he would stay that path for years to come, forever. For long enough to fight off Snoke. He was conflicted, he was not lost as he didn't do anything yet.

What Palpatine held over Anakin was that he would save Padme, so he needed Sheev alive. What did Snoke hold over Kylo? That his master betrayed him? Likely, because it happened and pushed him straight into Snoke.

I do not have a problem with the passing thought. I have a problem with the passing thought becoming action. Had he sat there holding an unlit lightsaber while pondering the ramifications, that would have been passing thought.
Him lighting up a loud lightsaber becomes action. He might not have tried to swing at Kylo like what Kylo saw, but he's holding a Goddamned deathstick over his nephew. There is absolutely no purpose for that in Kylo's eyes, but to kill him.

When your only instinct is to light up a lightsaber over someone, that sends a bad message, whether you stop yourself or not, you are directly portraying yourself as someone that with the wrong thought could murder that person. What difference is that than when someone points a loaded gun at someone? What could that message possibly send but that you went a little too far in your action?
And I don't think Luke is the type of person to strike down a child. The only people he did this to were active threats to his well being and everyone around him. Not the innocents if you will. The fact that Luke realized how ****ed up it was that he did this, shows it was a little out of character. I don't think Luke is the type of person to send a flare to that child that he could very well kill him.

The guy barely has a kill count as is

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke was training Ben since he was a child. There's no reason to assume Luke wasn't speaking to him about this. However, he probably did that and it didn't stop him from being influenced by Snoke or being curious and wanting to explore the dark side further. That is entirely possible. However, it's just as likely Ben was hiding it from him as he was feeling ashamed. If he was telling Luke details, they likely would have had a scene where Luke read his mind, and tried to sort out his thoughts. The fact that he was in cahoots with Snoke while toeing the line between good and evil show he was conflicted, and possibly ashamed.

And an important detail I found, apparently no one even would tell him about Anakin Skywalker and how he was redeemed. I have severe doubts they spoke in depth about this. You don't talk about dark side thoughts without the greatest fall from grace and the greatest redemption story that also happens to be your grandpa.

I think going to him when he's sleeping to read his mind show not much was being spoken of. The fact that Luke can read minds freely, and it being a popular Jedi trick have me doubting such a meeting ever occurred.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke was having a conversation with Sidious and attempted to murder him, whilst he was unarmed. Vader name-dropped his sister and threatened to turn her and Luke almost kills Vader. Luke gets frustrated, shows aggression, force chokes a Gamorrean, etc.

"No, it is." Right... so how? It wasn't serious contemplation or consideration from Luke, when it came to Ben. It was a passing thought. Keep in mind this is leagues less severe than attempting to kill an unarmed Sidious or cutting your father's hand off and struggling not to finish the job.

You're either being intentionally dishonest or, again, ignored TLJ. He didn't "just sense" the dark-side in him. He knew Snoke was influencing/poisoning him, felt growing darkness in his training, and saw that growing darkness had become something "beyond what he imagined." You're also confusing Star Wars with the real world, methinks. This is a universe where people can block others from being sensed, read intentions, get glimpses into the future, throw people around with an unseen force they can control, etc.

Luke is incredibly strong within the force, as shown in this film. His vision of the future was likely not an inaccurate one.

Sheev was actively telling Luke that everything was hopeless and that all his friends were walking into certain death. Then he was influencing him into the dark side, and telling Luke to strike him down. It wasn't a simple conversation, Sheev was doing the same thing he did to many others to turn them, and Luke fell for it. Luke was beyond pissed off there. Falling for Sheev hookline and sinker. Him falling for the darkside a bit against Sheev does not show he fell to the darkside to think about killing his nephew. I don't think him giving in to the darkside to destroy the darkside in Ben makes sense at that point in time when Luke is decades removed from those feelings as well not being goaded by the darkside like he was right beside the all evil of Sidious.
I'd also make the point that falling to the dark side to destroy darkside child doesn't make sense as a reaction, but then again this is Star Wars, so I can drop that.

As for Vader, again, he basically tells Luke he's going to kill him and corrupt his daughter he just found out about through Luke he was trying to keep hidden.

Both of these things were direct tangible threats to him and ones he loved, right beside the nexus of evil. Him having emotional outbursts in those times (one during an on again off again fight) carry more weight than him doing it against Ben, who again was a sleeping child, even without adding in the influence of Sheev.
They were immediate real threats that would more than likely be accomplished had Luke not failed. They were during a time when Luke was vulnerable to Palpatine's influence. They were during a time when it would be easier to fight and kill, than to talk considering his talking failed before these points. Luke was vulnerable, much like Anakin was vulnerable, much like Ben was vulnerable.

Luke however was not vulnerable to the same fall as he was in that room. Luke had decades of training to improve on his training to fight the darkside. To improve himself in the force and mentally. Luke has experience to draw from to come back from facing pure evil and succeed. And like you or someone said, Luke had time to ponder what they were saying and then react. Him doing what he did wasn't his first reaction. It was him contemplating it and getting seduced. His first reaction however in Ben's case was to grab the lightsaber, which show a different sort of reaction at the very least.
And if you assume he didn't fall to the darkside there but instead just wanted to kill the kid (disclaimer, however fleeting), then it automatically makes it different without further discussion.

As for the pigs getting choked, this video does a decent job of speaking of the variables.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc5eZEY3e8o

Though I will add, if he did choke those guards to death, that was wildly out of character, and I concede that's a good point. Though if he choked them to sleep, still not great but better. If you're implying that the force choke is a pure dark side power, Ahsoka Tano used it, as well as Anakin when they were pure Jedis. Though Anakin might be questionable, and AT learned it from him... in any case, it happened before.

Originally posted by The Lost
You keep on calling Ben a child but the destruction of Luke's temple happened circa 28 ABY. TLJ is 34 ABY, I believe. This made Ben at least 23 years old. I will freely admit I ****ed this up, and I never read anything on the backstory of Kylo/The Temple.

However, I will still continue calling him a child in my posts since I see it bothers you. stick out tongue

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
You're not understanding. The Jedi Masters and those with any authority in the order, several times over, have encouraged using lethal force to deal with threatening entities in the SW universe, especially Luke's masters. This is what Luke has learned and has an instinct to take care of this with Ben.

Keep in mind you keep saying that these events are not the same and you're right, which is why the responses are different. Got Anakin running loose and murdering all of the Jedi with Sidious? Yoda is certain he must die and tells Kenobi to do it after serious consideration. Got Ben being influenced by a powerful darksider who could end up being the most powerful evil in the galaxy but hasn't done anything yet? You get a passing thought that you don't act on.

How are these not appropriate for the scale of what these masters were responding to? You've damaged your point here. Remember, Sidious was clouding the growing darkness from the Jedi. Luke can see this and it is a challenge to figure out how to handle it.
And Luke has also learned that he can go directly against them when they say things like to go murder his father, and come out being correct.

Again though, they have never taught preventative lethal action against innocent sperms. They are taught to end lethal active threats when they get desperate, but that has never flowed into killing potential threads. Luke has never learned that. Luke has only ever learned to address possible situations. And the only way he has done that is by doing it his way, a way that ended something the previous Jedi could not.
It's an interesting conundrum, but one I don't think applicable to the situation at hand. Like I said, two were very active threats currently doing bad things. Ben had the potential to.

And you also have to understand why I am taking things to their end when your first paragraph very loosely says that Luke learned that he might have to kill Ben before he does anything, don't you? erm

You can't say things like this and be surprised that I turn it around at points to say you're basically saying it's cool for Luke to kill Ben if he did?

Anyway

I understand you're scaling them, but you are still dealing with potential threats vs very real threats. Let's use Hitler again. Sidious will be Adolf from the end of WW2. Vader will be him at the start of WW2 (or WW1, whatever works really). And Ben will be him as a teen Hitler (much like Ben was when Luke crept into his room).

Sidious had to be stopped, he was simply way too powerful and his reach too far. He had no redemption in him, and he had this planned for a long time.
Vader was becoming quite powerful and was doing heinous things far beyond the realm of what we previously thought possible.
Both of these were true for real life, and for the Jedi.

What we get into next is a moral quandary.

Something had to be done about Teen Hitler. The question is, what is the response?
What Luke did was equivalent to holding a dreidel shaped gun at teen Hitler in his sleep that he turned around and saw and it stuck with him forever. Teen Hitler was already dealing with Jewish bullies that used to make fun of him for having foreskin. He didn't need a huge push to throw him over the edge.

Now, what Luke did was a very human emotion, and most would even go fuhrer than that.
What Luke also did, was something I don't think any Jedi in history would do... except maybe Quinlan Vos if he had the chance. He's kind of a dick.
I don't think they would put themselves in that situation in the first place. That is simply not the code, and it doesn't vibe up with Luke either, especially with all the regret that comes from it as we see.

What the Jedi, or Luke would have and should have done was take this kid in and give him special treatment. Try to combat these dark forces so he doesn't fall farther into murdering Jews... become a Jedi killed.

Maybe tell the ****ing kid about his grandpa that was redeemed. Anything but being in a situation where you have to stop yourself from killing him in his sleep.

Sidious and Vader were doing a lot of sick shit at the time. Ben had the potential to do that. Ending it before it starts (death) is a human emotion. Ending it before it starts (death) has never been taught by Jedi in any case. Luke never learned that lesson, and continuing to call it a bad thought show he didn't learn this lesson.

An appropriate scaled response would be exactly that, thinking about killing him. Not lighting a superbright loud lasersword in his room when he was sleeping. Luke had to know that could only end bad. The only possible way that could have ended well was if Ben was passed out from being really drunk. At the very least he would have sowed the seeds of mistrust against someone he already knew was heading towards the darkside (or fully submerged depending how you want to see it).

It is not just about him "thinking about killing him". I really don't have an issue with that. But once it stops manifesting as thought and starts becoming physical, it becomes an issue. And once Luke does what he did, which was all sorts of retarded for reasons stated, it makes it way worse.

Which is why I think Luke in character could have stopped himself from activating the blade. Because he should have saw that that wasn't the only immediate response. Because he should have saw how ****ing badly that would turn out. And because he should have saw that maybe his meddling could actually have caused this.
Among other reasons already stated.

Yes it shows a flaw, and it shows a non perfect character. Luke can make flaws, Luke is not Qui Gon. But Luke is also not retarded, and has some restraint to a degree even in his young "right beside the darkside" self. I think they could have portrayed Ben's fall different. Better, without such a shortcut to get there.

Also, to give a more appropriate response where Luke activates the lightsaber while still being true to Luke's character in my definition, and compare it to Sidious/Vader responses.
What if when he goes into the room, he finds out Ben was actually killing non students (just so Luke wouldn't notice)?
What if he goes to confront Ben and Ben freaks out in a way that Luke feels he needs to defend himself and activate the saber?

Or what if, what if Ben catches Luke looking at his unlit lightsaber obviously in turmoil and this still freaks out Ben and causes the same reaction, or his belief in the darkness only grows from there? In the first scenario, it would show better how far Ben was into the darkside while still feeling betrayed (though not to the extent), and in the second he just only grows worse in the temple until he goes overboard in a training session by either killing someone or attacking Luke.

But what we were given, is a showing where Luke deserves most of the blame (outside Snoke), where in Kylo's eyes, there was no other way to take it.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Strawman. I didn't apply that argument. I am explaining Luke's thought process and how this is consistent with his character. Also, I hate that I have to remind you of this again, but SW is not in the real world. No one has magical powers to sense what could happen in the future with accuracy or sense how "evil" someone is. In SW, this is a truth. Also, Luke's intent sharply contrasts that of Palpatine's. Palpatine did not want opposition or to have his position threatened an Luke did not another Palpatine on his hands running amok in the stars, enslaving the galaxy.

Also, which Jedi? Luke is not a traditional Jedi and was not raised within the order. Why would his way be the same as, say, the prequel film Jedi? That has NEVER been Luke. Jesus, man... But it is not the truth, as we've seen time and time again. And when it is the truth, but you do drastic things to change it, we've seen that the drastic things you do to change it are the direct cause of these visions. Cue Anakin. It's not written in stone, and I feel Luke should have had the foresight to realize this and not - as another member said - had a knee jerk reaction. I think Luke should be above such instincts based on what we know of prior Luke. There are two sides to every story, sometimes four sides, but nobody cares about those other two sides.

As for Palpatine, it's two sides of the same coin following your motives of Luke. Like you said, Luke doesn't want another Palpatine, but the thing is, Palpatine doesn't want a Luke.
Hence the fetus murdering (again, not saying Luke is a baby aborted, just arguing the possibilities of his bad thoughts, and why they might be excused).
If we take this outside of Luke, is it alright to kill baby Sheev or baby Luke for a typical lightside and darkside user?

Any Jedi we've ever seen I think. And no, it's not the way Luke thinks either. The fact that you distanced it from bad thought, and whatever else have you means Luke is excused from being a different Jedi in this context. I don't think Luke has ever been portrayed as having the capabilities to kill before they do bad things, and you yourself are defending that by saying it was only a bad thought that passed by quickly.
But arguing the possibility of it still doesn't put it in Luke's wheelhouse, hence this whole discussion.

Luke might be a different Jedi, but he's not that different.

Before it gets said, that was in retort to this:

And having capabilities to foresee millions dying so you should kill them before it happens, is not how the Jedi do things.

Though even if it was only about thought, it was still wasn't something we should apply to Luke. Especially again, when it was just said to be a bad thought.

Basically to explain Luke's flaws, and say they're all the same, we have 3 bad thoughts

Attacking an unarmed Sidious
Attacking Vader in a fit of rage and almost killing him
And activating his lightsaber in thought against his sleeping adolescent nephew because he was filled with darkside

Luke doesn't seem like that type of Jedi. Especially when he admits it was a failure and even his student Kylo could see it was a failure, to say the least.

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke handling Ben is a legitimate dilemma. If he kicks him out, he goes straight to Snoke and begins tapping into his power with the dark side. That plan sucks. Luke obviously couldn't help him because Snoke's influence was too potent. Luke had been training him for years and Snoke was whispering in Ben's ear, yet Ben's darkness continued to grow.

It's not the "Sith way." It's just a bad thought. Luke knows this, which is why he ultimately regretted it and understands how he failed Ben. He's not perfect, which is what makes it interesting. I'm sorry you wanted the stale Qui-Gon-esque Luke who would NEVER be tempted to do anything drastic or was perfect and God-like but someone who wanted to not make SW another utterly generic romp decided differently, thank CHRIST.
I agree it's a dilemma. But I also agree with it being a bad thought, but the issue is, he handled that bad thought terribly. I'm sure you and I can agree there. The line is, where does this put him in regards to previous character?

The most potent way to portray it as being just a bad thought would have been for him to grab his lightsaber and think about igniting it. That would have showed conflict. That would have showed thought that passed perfectly, and it would have been a reasonable response, and something that could easily be forgiven.
Once he ignited it, again, that thought became action. That thought may not have become "try" but it definitely passed from thought into action. This is something that could not be ignored, and was just one more bad thought, or one more second away from turning terribly wrong. Luke knew this went far, Luke knew it wouldn't be taken well even if he wasn't actively thinking it... he was reminded the next second when he saw a fearful Ben.

I'm saying he went a little far in his actions from his words. Maybe he instantly regretted it the second he pushed the button, but I don't think it's in his character to get to that point.

I'm not saying he's Qui Gon, but what he did was go too far per his own admission. Per the point of the movie.
Especially when we last left off with Luke he was seen as this maybe too naive being that showed that hope could prevail and there was always the lightside. But his naivety showed correct. Nothing went wrong enough for him to reflect on that and change in the future. He was correct. For him to react so quickly to grab for his lightsaber and ignite it do not speak to me of that same character. Luke is not perfect, no, but I don't think he's one bad thought away from killing his newborn baby nephew because he was corrupted. I think sure, Luke would be thrown back, but he should have been able to stop himself considering the argument centers on him realizing that a split second later.

For him to go from wanting to kill to realizing what a bad idea that is in seconds shows it was a little out of character. Something he realizes was a massive failure. You could argue he hasn't made that bad of a decision since he went to challenge Vader early, and even then, that was predicated on hope that he could save his friends. Which largely paid off.

In regards to Snoke. You can either portray it as something like what you're saying, or something for Luke to conquer and win over. We've both stated our point here that I don't feel I need to restate at this point in time.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Of course Luke is different. This does not mean it is out of character. We've jumped ahead YEARS in the SW universe and Luke is older and will have differences to the young man he was. And I'M making excuses? Self-awareness is not your friend right now.

You say I've spun a narrative but haven't explained adequately as to why. A series of large posts and this is what you bring to the table? Man, come on. But if Luke is acting in a new capacity, however brief, is this not the definition of out of character?

And the issue is that Luke could possibly be different, wizened or hardened from old age. He could have changed for the better or worse. But the only things we have to go off of for that are the background story of him training Jedi, the scenes of him going into Fetus Ben's room in the middle of the night, and the OT. There is not enough to go on to say how he changed or why. We don't know if he's the same Luke as before, though he does say to Rey that he was like her, naive and such before the fall of the Temple. Which means he was intended to be the same at that point in time. I think it's safe to assume he had a ton of Jedi training. Things that would help stave off these bad thoughts. Things that would toughen his resistance to the darkside.

Yet he gets into one bad thought and his nephew got scared, and now he's moving to a remote planet in the middle of nowhere?

Sorry for that.

Anyway. All we know for sure is that Luke was supposed to be the same being, assumed to further his connection to the lightside. I don't think think Luke is one bad thought away from slaying an innocent no matter how dark the vision might have been.

So when you say things like this:

Keep in mind that when Luke has this vision, he has a responsibility that comes before his blood relation and his personal feelings as one of the few remaining galactic authorities/powers. That is why, when Luke sees this vision, his immediate instinct is to quell this rising menace and this is what a leader does. Ending danger before it becomes dangerous. However, he overcomes this almost immediately and is left (like I said previously) feeling guilty and shameful.

That does not fit in with all we know of Luke in the OT's motives. That is exactly the opposite of what Luke represented outside his encounters with the Emperor.

What you said is something that makes sense. It is akin to the "Kill Baby Hitler", which I feel is very representative of this entire topic as a whole, and I fully agree with it. I'd probably go around killing a lot of babies if I knew what pieces of shit they would become as adults. The problem is, this is not Luke. Luke was representing hope that things could change. That no matter what happened, something good could come out of it, etc. I don't feel I need to go over his here, as I felt I explained it earlier to a better degree than I'd do here. Basically Luke was naive that things could change, and things just fell into his lap to further his belief. Luke had really no reason to think he couldn't stop it based on what we know of OT Luke.

Now, you make a good point coming up that Luke didn't want to see this happen again, which I will go over as best as I can later, so we'll keep that in mind here.

But this does not fit in with everything we knew of Luke. I think it fits in with a retroactive Luke that looked back during his mopey Rey days, but it does not fit in with Luke. I hope you can see that.

Originally posted by The Lost
When did I say that Luke having a passing thought about killing his nephew was "okay?" You have to leave this strawman behind because it is annihilating the integrity of your arguments. Again, Luke's Jedi order is Luke's. If you're discussing recently, after the Temple incident, he's acting non-Jedi likely because he disagrees with their philosophy and thinks the "Jedi should end."

I am not making up narratives. I just paid attention. All I hear, everywhere online and even from some friends, is how out of character this is but the explanations always suffer, straight up are not there, or aren't sufficient. You're the one saying how Luke thought of killing Ben who was an "innocent child" but Ben was at MINIMUM TWENTY-THREE YEARS OF AGE. Because when every example exists to lesson the impact, and when there's things stated like "ending" evil before it begins, and the like, it's logical to take those examples to their conclusions. If the Jedi advise killing and that's brought up to support Luke in this instance, how is that not "okaying" Luke's passing thought.
And I don't mean "Okay" as in morally right in that sense. I mean okay as in it's within Luke's character to do so, or have these thoughts (turn into action).

As well for the non Jedi angle. Every Luke from every point in his life admitted he made a huge mistake. Even Luke disagrees with what he did. Had he at any point in the movie agreed with that being the Jedi way, or to distance him so far from it, we would have likely had him saying at any point that he should have did it when speaking about it. You can't assign him of being so different from non Jedi in this instance when nothing he has ever said or done back this up. Again, had Luke thought this was some sort of Jedi way, he would have likely looked back upon it and said he should have killed Ben. I do not remember if he did, but had he, I'm sure you would have mentioned it, so I can assume he didn't.
Whenever he looks back on it, he regrets it. He regrets it so much that he even lied to Rey about it and she had to learn "the truth" from Kylo.

So me saying it was a non Jedi way is entirely correct, no matter what he thinks of the Jedi at the time. And at the time, he was still following their order under a regime that we know not of but is heavily if not outright stated to be the same as what his OT would follow. Stop trying to distance him from the Jedi at that point in time, when that didn't come until after Kylo burned it down and killed a lot of jedis.

A Younglin Ben went nutso and made Luke ponder the old ways. However there is no indication that he was ever changing the Jedi way before then.

And if every Luke at every point in his life says what he did was wrong... then this seems to even be Luke admitting he was acting out of character. Just saying.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke "thinking that hardly?" Yeah, but...

"He who would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he would became and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow and I was left with shame and with consequence."

... you're wrong.

Also, keep in mind the redemption of Vader was joint effort by Luke and, well, obviously Vader himself. I would agree that it would be out of character for Luke to plan, seriously consider, weigh it, etc.

He didn't. He had a brief moment that passed and paid enormously for it. That is the description of the scene, yes. Without the actual scene being played out, I am wrong I admit.
Yet, that description does not say that he activated his lightsaber and stood there crying into it. Was that the guilt, or was that still the thought? Precisely, the thought of stopping it?
What exactly would you call it when someone is holding a weapon crying into it for a while? He was thinking about something bad, either during that moment, or right before.
Here is an alternate take on that.

Him crying is him reacting to the pain Ben would cause. The briefest moment of pure instinct was him *slowly* grabbing his lightsaber and igniting it. Already the moment is stretched out, as that wasn't exactly an instantaneous reaction which leads us to believe it wasn't split second like what you're implying, but rather seconds, like what the scene showed. The briefest moment of pure instinct where he activated his lightsaber took him 7 seconds, which already shows it was longer than the implication of "briefest of moments" implies. And I don't think we can separate the "instinct", from him "thinking" he could end it. So at the very least, he thought about it for 7 seconds. And that's just from him reaching for the saber, not counting during and after reading his mind.

So to continue on, him feeling guilt and shame was the easiest to place when he was just staring into the saber, and consequence obviously came after when Ben saw him. Though if you really want to follow it as an exact chain of events (he says he saw Ben feeling terrified next, which would indicate this was last), the consequence could be seen as a betrayal to who Luke is for going as far as he did. IE, out of character for him.

So the scene still happens in the briefest of moments since that's not an exact timeframe, nor is fleeting shadow, but it's longer than what you're trying to say here.

And in seconds he saw a whole world of pain from Kylo. So yeah, I do think at least 7 seconds is at least enough time for him to think pretty hard about it. To a point where he ignited his lightsaber in the first place, and knew that was bad right when he did it.

I realize it was a joint effort by Vader. That's not exactly contrary to my point. That only flows into Luke seeing the good in people and thinking they can be redeemed. Luke believed while staring into almost pure evil that there was good there, and he could help bring it out. He was correct. Why again, would he suddenly reflect on this like he was wrong when nothing would point him in this direction later on in life? When he had to have known Ben was less corrupted than Vader was. It took immense prodding in a bad place to spaz out on Vader. Yet before hand he was all like Dad, take me to the fair and win me the biggest teddy bear dad. He knew how bad he was. Once he feels like Ben could be as bad as Vader he thinks about it for 7 seconds that leads him to igniting his lightsaber?

He didn't instantly go into attack mode with Vader and he knew how bad he was. He felt that Ben could be as bad as Vader and he goes into attack mode (for the briefest of moments IE 7 seconds)? At the absolute least, that is conflicting. I realize surrounding context can be applied, but him already knowing how bad Vader was took additional nasty shit to shift him into spaz mode.

Originally posted by The Lost
I don't think he should have at all. I'm saying if you have this vision, it's what you do. He is a leader. It's his duty and what he was taught by Yoda and Kenobi. Sure, he wasn't taught exactly, "If you have a feeling that your immensely powerful nephew is going to run the galaxy with a Sidious-esque dark-sider, and you have an intense vision about this and know he's being influenced by that figure, kill him before it gets out of control."

It's not binary. It's not, "Well, they either give him that exact piece of advice or they didn't teach this." Yoda and Kenobi both practiced that a means of dealing with individuals like Vader, Snoke, or Sidious is to murder them. Seriously. If they're that powerful and have that much influence, the only option is to extinguish their lives. Luke takes this lesson and applies it to a fresh circumstance but he's off about it.

In his position as a leader, it's not so farfetched that he'd even briefly consider it out of instinct. Remember what he's been trained to do all of his life when dealing with an enormously evil power and that power's influence on a dangerously force-strong Ben (who's a Skywalker).

I wasn't literally saying "he should go do this." It was to illustrate a point about having the power to foresee what is going to happen or getting insight into the trajectory of events. It was to explain Luke's thought process through devil's advocation. It is why I said I would only agree if Luke did it. It would be out of character and foolish, if he followed through. Remember, I was figuratively placing the reader in Luke's shoes. Here, see again:

"Having capabilities within the force to foresee millions dying from a dark-side threat, you terminate that threat regardless of it's personal cost. Keep in mind that when Luke has this vision, he has a responsibility that comes before his blood relation and his personal feelings as one of the few remaining galactic authorities/powers. That is why, when Luke sees this vision, his immediate instinct is to quell this rising menace and this is what a leader does. Ending danger before it becomes dangerous."

^ It's explaining what a man in his position ought to pursue as a potential avenue. "This is what a leader does" because it is. It's about the hardest possible choices dwelling in your mind. Luke recognizes this is a weakness of being in that authoritative position and Yoda provides great wisdom on Luke's mistake and being a leader in general:

"We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

No, it's not binary, and they didn't give him that advice. The problem is, they didn't give him anywhere near this advice. They taught him to quench evil, that is correct. What they didn't teach him to do, was quench potential evil. And what's that ignoring, is that Luke has ignored their advice as well in regards to Vader, and came out correct in his assertion that people can change.

I don't get how you can be so dumbfounded when I say you're making up your motivations when you say stuff like this. And this is my issue with interpretations and motivations... nothing you said was actually said in the movies (outside possibly referring to Vader). Nothing even remotely close was taught to Luke in regards to evil before it happens. And nothing there actually follows Luke's character. Nothing they could have taught him would prepare him to kill Ben before he turned evil, because nothing in the Jedi code would tell them to kill Ben. Nothing would have even alluded to this either.
And their own dealings with this in Anakin only had them tell him not to do it, keep him away from important decisions and off the council. Though an important one is probably don't leave him around some old man for a long period of time. What they learned from Anakin is unlikely that they had to kill him. Not saying you're saying that, but I feel like they did reflect on it, and still didn't come to that realization. What they learned from Anakin was likely to help keep him on the path of light and don't let him get away with killing a bunch of Tusken Raiders.

It's very doubtful they would have prepared him for it in the way you're saying, or really at all. And if they did, it's probably to reinforce what Luke taught them.

What Luke taught them, is that he had the power to help bring people back. I don't think he was talking to Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda and them teaching him that maybe next time he should have tried something different. In fact, they would have reinforced hope after seeing what a motivated Luke can accomplish. They've seen how powerful the lightside truly is when it can bring even the darkest of beings into the light. All Luke did, was reinforce the power of the lightside.

When Yoda finally talks to Luke again, he tells him he failed. Straight up, he failed, but that that failure can be a good teaching tool. That Luke has to grow beyond his failure. A failure that directly stemmed from how he handled Kylo. Everything in the movie stems from that failure.

I really highly doubt the that at any point in time that they even implied this, or that Luke took this away from them. If it was, he wouldn't have been so guilty and shameful seconds later, nor would Yoda have told him he failed.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Luke was younger and more naive. How could you think shit like this is an excuse? It makes sense. Rey is reminiscent of Luke when he was young. "I can bring Kylo back, etc." Luke thinks this is absurd and then his character develops into understand that, although Kylo may never be a Jedi again or start actively pursuing the light, Luke believes Ben could still act and do something to attain some sort of redemption. Look at how Luke talks to Leia about him before he goes out there. Like I said before, that worked out more than the entire Jedi Order before him. What exactly should he change? Why would he not build on this foundation? Why would he not want people to be better and to try and change people from turning over from the darkside when he's proven he can accomplish it. Obi Wan straight up tells Luke that Vader is more man then machine right now when Luke thought he could redeem him, which would theoretically make the task even harder. Yet Luke reached him. And that is the foundation he built for himself.

Luke thinks that is absurd because of the state he's in right now. He was far removed from what he should have been because he was turned on the Jedi at the time. You've even said this. Also it will be interesting to see if Rey actually does redeem him next movie...

I don't think Luke wanted to redeem him though. He didn't even try for that matter. At that point in time he was back to his old ways with one difference, he only wanted to save his friends, not save Ren as he knew it was his last act and had limited time. He mirrored what Obi Wan did for him against Vader; buying time so they could escape, and basically taunting Ben and telling him he's wrong. At no point in time did he even try and sway Ben's opinion.

I know he said he can't save him to Leia, but I think he only said that so he didn't have to say he won't save him, and he won't even try. Even when Ben was good, Luke didn't get the chance to save him as he ****ed up. At no stage does he ever try since he started feeling the darkside in him. By all means Vader was just as far gone as him at that stage, if not more. I don't see it as an impossible task, nor do I think Luke truly does either.

Luke knew he was going to "die" and simply wanted to do one last good act, and leave the rest to Rey as he sensed the old him in her. He simply didn't want to attempt to redeem Kylo as he knew he didn't have the time. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out since Rey seems to actually be able to reach Ben, but then again, I'd rather Ben die with no redemption than be proven right in a year or two.

And what you said is correct, while he may not wait out hope for a full redemption (Rey is not Luke afterall), I do think he believes Ben will do something good and prove this to others and they'll accept it for whatever reason. And if Luke believes it to even such a minimal degree compared to a full redemption, then he believes in hope and change like the old Luke. He actually believes Rey to be right.

Originally posted by The Lost
How have I tried to minimize the importance of the scene in TLJ just because I don't agree with you on what it represents or whether or not it is within Luke's character? I think it's one of the most importance scenes in the film, hence this massive argument concerning that scene. Lol?

No, it wasn't just to show Ben's evil but it surely did a solid job at doing that. You keep on saying Luke doesn't act like a Jedi but remember that Ben has been trained all of his life and was a Jedi and his "Jedi" response to Luke holding a lightsaber over him is to sack Luke's temple and murder a bunch of Jedi that weren't standing over him with a lightsaber ignited so, in the end, Luke wasn't thoroughly wrong about Ben.

Yes, Luke contributed to Ben's fall at that moment but it wasn't due to some consistent wrongdoing. Luke had a brief moment and made a mistake at the shittiest time, creating a perfect storm.

Dude, I agree with it having consequences that are dire. Like... what? Also, since "Obi-Wan Kenobi" is not just a synonym for "Luke Skywalker", perhaps he wouldn't have. They are different people and will have different approaches, instincts, and considerations for how to handle certain things. Kenobi and Yoda aren't better Jedi. Remember, they ruled in an era where they allowed almost all of the Jedi (and there was much more than Luke had) to become extinct, lost the flagship Jedi temple, lost the Republic, etc.

They handled Anakin poorly over the course of a lifetime, along with not having the strength or preparation to deal with Sidious' cunning and prowess. Luke may have ****ed up massively but his instinct told him to do something and, when you lead, you do it. Thankfully, he didn't, but he had that understanding and felt/saw that. The Jedi that came before Luke failed to do this so much more comprehensively than Luke ever did.

You mention how Kenobi and Yoda planning to kill Vader/Sidious was more drastic because of what they did? Keep in mind, those two and the Jedi council also allowed this to happen and it gave way to consequences that, as of so far, were much more serious than Luke's.
I was speaking to the frequent use of "briefly" when used to describe the scene. You're minimizing the happening with continued use of the word. He did something really stupid and it was really important, no matter how brief it was.
That is my issue with what you quoted.

I'm not saying Ben was good though. He was obviously teetering on the edge of being a full on kunt. But like you said, it was the perfect storm to push him over. And maybe Ben would have went to the dark or stayed in the light had that not happened. All I'm saying, is that what Luke sensed is murky because literally the exact same thing happened with Anakin trying to stop his visions from happening, and actually causing them. It's entirely possible Luke sensed what his meddling would do, and not a definite future. Because what Luke sensed came true and pissed Ben off more than anything ever, driving him into Snoke's loving embrace.

See, the thing is it wasn't some ineptitude on the Jedi to fail to see this (well, maybe it was a little). It was because Sidious was so much more powerful than advertised. He put a shroud of darkness around him and everyone around to a point where 900 year old Jedi thought he was a frail old man. He put the whole galaxy into the darkside and unbalanced the force. That's how powerful he was. Some of the greatest Jedi that ever lived were living 4 steps away from him and couldn't sense shit from him.
When something like that happens, what are the Jedi to do? Sidious was simply way too powerful to put that blame on the Jedi, and they needed the army to help fight the war... that Sidious was behind from both sides.

What were they supposed to do? Leave the planet, and that would somehow solve it? Call Sheev a kunt? They knew he was, but him being a shifty politician is not the same as being a sith lord. Anyone who even got close was killed. They couldn't sense who the actual master was. They were simply outplayed.

There was simply not a solution, and being wrapped up in the war didn't help matters. And Sheev was needed to help supply the efforts. The only thing I can think of that would help would be to walk away from the war completely and leave the planet. Maybe then they might gain some clarity, I'm not sure. I haven't looked into the matter.

And I'm not sure if Sidious was still even trying to mask anything from Luke. But the fact that Luke could help pull Vader from his grasp is enormous, and shows how powerful he actually is. And Yoda/Obi Wan knew this. They knew his power to apparently bring back others from the clutches of no return. Which is my point, and Luke knew it too.

Though I agree Anakin was handled poorly, though I think you're stretching a little far with that "lifetime" part which implies he was severely mishandled. Anakin was handled in a way that they were weary of what he might do in situations. It didn't help that he was the chosen one. It didn't help that Sheev was manipulating him and the Jedi (Sheev was literally giving him aspirations that he knew the Jedi wouldn't comply with), and it didn't help that he couldn't see that his actions were holding him back from power.
He had chances to redeem himself completely but Sheev kept that "save Padme" in his back pocket. And when Padme died, he was like "Oh shit I lied", and Anakin was too deep in at that stage and too powerless. Had he stayed back when Mace was fighting Sheev, and Mace killed him, I think he probably would have been fine. But you know, saving Padme.
I think to handle Anakin correctly, leaving the war would have sufficed. Beyond that, leaving the planet probably would have helped. It's a tricky one that happens largely because of location, a location advantageous to the Jedi, and that's why they stayed. Though that's not to say Sheev couldn't have gotten at him if they stayed in the war but off world.

Also, Luke probably should have killed Ben since he went as far as he did anyway. That's ignoring his character mind you, but that's just saying retroactively it was a far better solution than what he did. Activating that lightsaber... I just don't get it.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Twenty. ****ing. Three.

Also, Luke was not just weighing in dealing with Ben but what someone like Snoke could do with someone as force-strong as Ben. Luke was concerned he would have another ultimate evil on his hands in that instinctive moment. Surely you understand this. Months?

Well, I'm sure you expect me to say "Try to save him", and I will. But I've gone over that enough to repeat it to this point.

The question becomes, what do you do in that situation? 2 options. Try to save him in another way. Or kill him.

What did Luke actually do? Freeze holding a lightsaber over him in his hands, and it turned out to be just as bad as him swinging the sword at Ben and failing to kill him. Luke getting in that halfway point shows conflict yes, but it also shows that he should not have been in that situation, as do all the statements made towards this event.

I'm sure you can at least throw me a bone here and admit it was the absolute dumbest thing he could have done, correct?

Originally posted by The Lost
Yeah, and Luke doesn't want that happening again. Don't you see?

Anyway, Luke nearly succumbs to Sidious' manipulation. You say what Luke does in TLJ is a "non-Jedi" thing to do yet Luke fell victim to Sidious' temptation so perhaps he's not the ideal Jedi you thought he was? Perhaps he's not a Qui-Gon? Luke has always been the closest to that "grey" area and wasn't conventionally trained as a Jedi. Also, Vader threatened his sister and, AGAIN, he goes off and nearly murders him. Luke almost loses it TWICE in that throne room. Now, faced with someone like Snoke who is seeking the power Sidious had and is grooming a powerful Skywalker, you're telling me it's SO ABSURD that Luke has a passing instinct to help suppress this by taking Ben's life?

I honestly don't understand how this is so foreign to some people. Like I said before, the fact that Luke was even resisting Sheev at that stage was enormous. And Sheev was throwing full game out at Luke.

But he regained his composure twice, stood up to Palpatine, and pulled his father back. That is the last time he faced the sort of evil you're telling me he could have faced against full fall Ben. And if he couldn't save him, he is now in a full power advantage unlike against Palpatine, with a very potent army behind him.

There are better more in character options than what he did.

Originally posted by The Lost
Yes, they are different. His position was different and age has made him different. However, Luke is still Luke so he's not a different person in the literal sense, now is he? Also, two fits of rage. Also, Luke carefully considered this and was intently listening to Sidious and even Vader and flew off the handle. Those weren't just "moments." Luke heard Sidious out and swung at him. Luke listened to Vader and pummeled him onto his knees and cut his goddamn hand off.

Old man Luke? Has a brief thought. Go watch the film. You can see exactly how long it is by his facial expressions and his narration of the true events at the temple grounds. That is the difference between "Grand Wizard" Luke and Jedi Knight Luke because Jedi Knight Luke just might have gone through with it.

It's not, which is why the events are showcased and handled differently. However, Luke's thought isn't out of character. He's been taught that dealing with enormous galactic evil must be dealt with in a final manner. He instinctively applied this to a juxtaposing circumstance and it brought him great shame. It's completely, completely within his character. I'm not saying he's a literal different person, it's just that the way he handled it disappointed me as a fan. I would have expected him to take out his lightsaber at the worst, not ****ing ignite it. I would have never expected him to go in there like a rapist in the night in the first place, and I feel it was rushed to show why it happened without properly explaining it in full. Sure it explained why Ren did what he did, but it seems extra sneaky and downright wrong with what Luke did. And it also managed to bypass the actual atmosphere and potential story of Luke's order.
I don't know what I expected, but I know it wasn't that. It was an effective scene yes, but one again, I feel was out of character from what we know of Luke and how we left him. Especially when he should be more powerful and restrained.

With Sidious, it was 9 seconds before he grabbed the lightsaber, and 11 when he attacked after hearing Sheev's words. 2 and 4 seconds longer than against Ben. I'm pretty sure the Vader one was quicker.
It syncs up pretty well with thinking it over in terms of times.

Either way, Luke was actively being pulled to the darkside in both case while Sheev and Vader were pillow talking him the dirtiest shit they would do to everyone he knew. And Vader was threatening and fighting him at the time.

Luke was not pulled to the darkside, or at least not in the same way against Ben. He saw a vision that wasn't immediate. And he thought about killing him for at least 7 seconds and then did something really stupid.

And see, I don't think Jedi Knight Luke would have even gotten to that stage. That is my whole problem with it. The only way I could possibly see that, is if Sheev was right beside Luke showing him those visions and taunting him at the time. I think it perfectly reasonable that Jedi Knight Luke could have watched those visions and resisted even going near his lightsaber. He was filled with hope. He would have helped Ben, he would have done all he could he help him. This is why I have an issue with it, is because I think Jedi Knight Luke would have helped him. And I don't think he would have gotten to the stage where he's in his bedroom reading his mind in his sleep too.

Though I will concede that had Jedi Knight Luke been forced into a rage by Sheev level darkside, that he definitely would have swung that sword and killed Ben. There's a difference.

As for your last part, it strongly shows the contrast between interpretations. Which is simply what both of ours are. Just two interpretations of how we view Luke. I think yours is wrong, you think mine is wrong.
Actually very interesting when you think of it. I just hope I can give you something to think about at the end, while you've given me something to think about.
It is an interesting debate (for me anyway) and completely out of the norm, so I'm grateful for the different experience.

There is simply nothing concrete to prove either of us wrong. There is no actual proof to Luke's character besides interpretations as it's more of a concept and interpretation than a definition. thumb up

Originally posted by The Lost
Why would he be portrayed exactly like that? Luke was portrayed with humanity, age, experience, and trauma. This is a man whose friends have been screwed by the Empire. His father mutilated him and contributed to that, his nephew is being poisoned by another man who is trying to do what Sidious did to his father, etc.

Luke has not had an easy life and people wanted Luke in this film to just be this perfectly adjusted and unbreakable wise old man? How boring and deprived of reality that would have been... SW has needed something like this for a while and it didn't take a psychic to know a large portion of the SW audience wouldn't be prepared for it. It's a shame. And he stood up and became a better stronger person because of it. Yes he will have some trauma behind it, but his Jedi training should help him deal with it.
I don't even want to say what you know I want to either.

Luke has enough character quirks and things going on that he's not hard to make an interesting character out of it following what a large part of the fanbase suspected. Even with the template you laid out, you're telling me the amazing writers of The Last Jedi couldn't take that and make it work for him?

Maybe he tried to save Kylo and failed so now he's actually waiting for a protege in a place only one would find him to stand up to him? Maybe Kylo actually killed him and he's a force ghost? Maybe he was looking for something important? I don't know, I'm sure an actual writer could come up with something with unbreakable boring Luke as you say. Afterall, it's not like he didn't have tons of EU material that made him interesting...

Rey should have gotten the character development they gave to Luke... a person who's already went through a roller coaster of character development.

One Big Mob

Does this not sound like backtracking to you?

Either way, you just quoted him saying it took him a while to get around to Rian's way of thinking. Which means he wasn't taken out of context. He did not like it, he changed his mind ignoring him being forced to. Him coming around to see Rian's Luke is not the same as him seeing the Luke's as the same, the exact opposite actually. And Mark never said what he previously said had no merit, he just basically said now he likes Luke, and he hopes the audience does as well.

Now, we'll bring up things he never said were wrong in his apology, These are things said from the guy who played Luke Skywalker and would have great intel on what Luke was supposed to be. Surprisingly it gels well with what I'm saying. This is Mark on how he saw Luke after the OT.

gYIAVvNH8rE

Jedi don't give up

If he made a mistake he would try and right that wrong

How did the most optimistic hopeful character in the galaxy...

I want to be the optimistic hopeful one like before

A Jedi if he does something wrong he makes it right. You know even if he's traumatized and goes away he will regroup in I don't know 6 months

Which means Mark saw the character he played in the OT as an optimistic hopeful person, as a classical Jedi, and that he doesn't give up and would right his wrong, maybe after a short period to reflect on it.

So no, I don't believe Luke somehow learned the lesson of ObiWan/Yoda about Sidious and felt the need to apply it. I believe he was a Jedi and saw himself as along the same vein as Yoda/Obi Wan (when you say what kind of Jedi), and I don't believe he just gives up on Ben, and even if he did, he wouldn't go somewhere to die.
At least, that was what we follow of how I, many others, and even Mark himself view OT Luke. So the question is, if Luke himself thought Luke was out of character, was he?

So yes, Mark was pissed off about Luke. That is not a misquote. There's quite a few others, and he especially didn't like JJ's take... Him liking it now is not him saying everything he said about OT Luke was wrong. It's just that he now likes both Lukes. He likes what Rian did with him even if he doesn't think Luke would do that.

It doesn't conflict in a way that makes it wrong. It just means Mark was wrong for hating this Luke.

Even in that post I explained to a decent degree what Luke should be. What Luke should and shouldn't do, and what Luke has done, and why things don't apply the way they do. And I think I've done that better here, and the only way I could more is to just start making up all sorts of random shit never said. So no, I am not vague here at least, and maybe I was vague in what I said there, but it was backed up by the rest of my post.

If things are said opposite to that, with no actual words or motivations being said in the movie, then how is this not made up? The explanation is that it doesn't exist, nor does anything alluded to that exist. I wasn't exactly making up the character that was Luke nor was I vastly off on how he was in the OT.

It didn't make more sense at all though. Obi Wan/Yoda had no choice at all. Luke had a choice. Even if Luke wasn't training more Jedi, he could have led an army at their doorsteps. An army currently in power with him at the helm. You already said he was a galactic power and authority, he could have snapped his fingers and had the First Order attacked at infancy. Snoke tracked. Ben dealt with. Luke saved the galaxy twice. He had high power. Leia had high power. He had friends in high places that I'm sure would want those actions brought to order.

I will agree that they should have taken Luke in when he was younger though, if only for a power angle. I think even Yoda says Luke is too old when he gets there, though that might be my memory failing. However, Yoda was correct. Without allowing Luke to mature on his path or more precisely gain pilot skills that he would have likely never got Jedi training, everyone would have died against the first Death Star. Yoda sensed he needed something extra that Jedi training alone wouldn't provide. Especially Jedi training in that time. Remember that prequel Jedi training had them learning all the relevant tricks they would need at the time and there wasn't as much need for rush for them to complete a bunch of arbitrary tasks that Luke simply couldn't do if he was to be the hope. Yoda knew that Luke needed something he wouldn't get in a limited training environment like he would experience, so he knew they couldn't interfere until the force guided him to the path.
Kenobi even says he wanted to train Luke from youth, but Yoda cuts him off and tells him to hold his horses.

He can't be in Jedi training while shooting wamprats and taking trips down Beggar's Canyon afterall. Much the same as Anakin learned his pilot skills from Pod Racing. Neither would have been as good of pilots, and as important had they been taken in infancy or before that point. Even with full prequel training at their disposal, nobody became a great pilot unless they worked on it, as it wasn't as important as other Jedi aspects.

Kenobi fully trusted himself with Luke. He wanted to train him. The problem is, he didn't know when the time was right until it was almost too late, and he trusted Yoda. Who turned out to be correct as usual.

Though you could make the argument that Kenobi could have just made him a Podracer to match Anakin, but thus there is the problem with Prequels being made after "sequels". Pod racing didn't exist at the time. And Kenobi wasn't sure what Luke actually needed to help him.

What you're saying is that it makes sense because it's the straw that broke the camels back. But what I'm saying, is that he could have loaded more straw on his back judging from the OT. I don't think we can actually prove the other wrong, we can just say our 2 cents as to why one makes more sense than the other. thumb up

Another reason why I normally have issues with interpretations like this, but this is interesting.

However, I don't think it makes more sense than what Obi Wan/Yoda did. I don't think that's debatable. They had absolutely no choice at all. Luke did no matter how you interpret that.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost

Why? Luke had DONE this already and thought he won with some finality. When it turns out that these events were just reintroducing themselves into his life and into the galaxy again, it broke him. PLUS, on top of all of that, he helped contribute to it via his grave mistake with Ben on the temple grounds, which contributed to him losing another generation of Jedi which was the fate of those that came before him (PT-era Jedi Order).

And you ask why? LOL. It makes a tremendous amount of sense. Also, the circumstances aren't supposed to be similar. It's just that Luke's reaction makes more sense.

Obi-Wan and Yoda: We trained this Jedi who could end up being the most powerful Jedi ever and he has fallen to the Sith with another incredibly powerful entity and they've destroyed the Jedi and dominate the galaxy. What should we do? Train a jedi who could end up being the most powerful Jedi ever... See where this could go?

Now, Luke has ALL of that historical circumstance and comes across this ONCE AGAIN. After seeing that dealing with it could become terribly risky and nearly impossible, he instinctively sees a way out with Ben that leads to chaos and is incredibly brief. Then, after his error and seeing history repeat itself, he walks away. It makes sense. Yoda and Kenobi doing what caused the galaxy tremendous peril again makes less sense, even though they succeeded. It was about "faith" and "hope", remember. Those words littered the OT because they KNEW it wasn't the greatest course of action and it was likely they could fail.

Jedi don't give up

I'm not saying he dusts himself off immediately, I'm saying he doesn't wallow in it and go to die after his first big failure in 20-30 years. The last we saw of him he was filled with hope, then he makes one mistake, albeit costly decades later and he just goes to die? Are you comparing him to a war vet or something when you've previously said this isn't real life? Luke faced some dark shit, but the only time we've ever seen him break was because of the being that just died, and that was momentary. He even had hope that his father would make it, yet him dying didn't seem to affect him much. Then he has a happy celebration with the Ewoks. When we left off with Luke, he really wasn't the breaking type. Hell, he wasn't the break type at all ever, outside seconds. And when he broke, he fought back. He fought to end that tyranny. He fought to save the galaxy.

I understand we're at different interpretations, but not breaking was much more in character than breaking. Luke had unshakable hope, only more reinforced by his actions. Him breaking is a possibility of course due to him dealing with a lot of shit, but I think it more correct to assume he deals with it as well as he has in the past. To get up and fight. And I really didn't think of Luke as a lesser breakable character, and neither did Hamill based off the OT... the guy who made Luke what he was. Who played him as someone who wouldn't give up and who had a lifetime to go over what Luke was supposed to be.
Also, the finality angle and having to repeat doesn't really work. Assuming this is a factor would go against training the Jedi in the first place. Luke was preparing for another disaster. It just happened in a way that was different.

And I really fail to see why you keep saying it made more sense than Yoda/Obi Wan's exile. They had literally no choice at all. If they didn't do what they did, they would have died, full stop. No chance at all, they would have died. That was the finality of it, had they not went into exile and had the backup plan of Luke, they would have died before accomplishing anything. They knew the only chance they had was to hide and rely on Luke since they had literally no other choice. There was nothing they could do otherwise that wouldn't put them in the spotlight and make them an immediate target in a weaker army. If they would have tried to fight, it would have reached the Empire and they would have focused hellfire on anything connected to their names. This was made blindingly obvious that it was all they could do.

As for training Luke and how it could go wrong... even if it did, what difference does it make at that stage? The Empire was completely overpowered anyway. They fail with Luke and everything goes off the same way. They win with Luke and they have a chance to right the galaxy. It's not even a gamble at that stage, it's just what they do. Plus both were nearing the end of their life anyway, they didn't have time for another plan.
But Yoda knew to trust in the living force because he sensed something with Luke. He knew there was something special there and he trusted the living force would drive him into Obi Wan/Yoda, which is another reason for not training him in his youth as well. That Luke would come to them. That Luke wasn't a problem child or shoved into being a Jedi, Luke was just driven to them like destiny, and now it was time to teach him. Is Obi Wan supposed to see Luke (though knocked out) trying to deliver R2 to Obi Wan Kenobi and not take it as a sign that Yoda was right now is the time to train him?
Obi Wan watched him from afar throughout his life and never seen Luke do any stupid shit when he was fairly old, and he found some innocent young man when he spoke to him. His eyes even light up when he hears Luke say his true name because he knew it was a sign. Obi Wan found a young man who cared about the two droids he just found, and even was giving hope to C3PO. He found a good person interested in the Jedi. Of course he knew he had to try with Luke after seeing this. After seeing Yoda's message come true.

It made perfect sense to exile and hope for Luke to come out well. And it makes perfect sense that they started training him judging from what they encountered in him, and the premonition Yoda had. Not only that, but Yoda started training him after Luke already helped save the galaxy from the first Death Star.

There is no way this made less sense than someone who had choices, and lots of them. I just can't accept that. Luke giving up a quitter mentality no matter how you spin it. And then he dwelled on that for years and wanted to die.
Does living as a hermit and wanting to die, make more sense than trying to save the galaxy? That is what those two boil down to.

Not only that, but Luke did break out of his funk anyway. Showing he could get over it. Even when he went from going to die, to training Rey and hating Jedi, he broke out of it. Even at a completely mopey "I hate Jedi" stage Luke was willing to help train someone to combat the threat. It wasn't something that completely broke him past redemption even in the movie. He just needed really anything to help him out. And then he later realized how stupid both of these angles were. Honestly, it really didn't take a terrible amount of effort to take him out of that "I don't want to be around anyone and I want to die stage", a bit more to get him out of the "The Jedi need to end" stage admittedly, but still.

Which indicates he wasn't past the point of no return, but he certainly acted like he was when he gave up on everyone and everything and wanted to go and die. The only way to portray him further is for him to suicide... but I'm not even sure that exists in Star Wars. I understand movie magic with getting him out of that slump, but they really didn't portray him as hard to reach as he made it out to be. Whatever though, it's just something else to point out.

Originally posted by The Lost
"Likely" because he closed himself off? No, that's exactly why. He had abandoned and cut himself off from the force. It's discussed in the film. It's definitely why. Yeah, that was a bad insert of a word.

Either way, why didn't he use the force to sense Rey out when she already knew him? He did it later behind Rey's back so it wasn't like he was completely opposed. Minor gripe though.

One Big Mob

I really don't think it was a case of not wanting her turn though. He didn't want to train her because he gave up.

I never had anything in the wrong order, I didn't say he sensed the conflict before, I said he decided to train her anyway. You don't need a "continue" in there. Train works as is, continue is just more specific.

Anyway, I will explain why him not wanting another pupil to turn wasn't a huge part of his motivation.

Because the first thing he even does with Rey when he starts her training (literally calls it lesson one in the same scene) is has her feel the force, and she goes immediately to the darkside.

"You went straight to the dark"
"It offered something you needed, and you didn't even try and stop yourself"
"I've seen this raw strength only once before... In Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now"

And then he goes oh well, might as well (continue to) train you anyway? You want to talk about things that make sense... how does this? And especially how does this make sense if he didn't want to train Rey because he didn't want to have another pupil fall? You just spent 7 posts explaining why it makes sense for Luke to give up the Jedi order and not take pupils anymore, yet you think it makes sense for him to continue training her? If anything, everything you've said outside this section goes against this. Which is likely why you didn't want to even really talk about this. Notice how you're more worried about my order of things than what I actually said.

Nobody has ever fired off as much warning signs as Rey did and all she did was feel the force. There has never been a bigger tell to cut training than what Rey did. Ever. Even just going under the assumption that he didn't want to train her because he gave up, it still didn't make sense for him to continue training her.

I realize him training her turned out to be correct, but when the first thing she does is shows immense power and goes straight to the dark? Come on. I could quote half of your words here on why this was a bad decision but I won't because you know exactly why this is wrong. *Cue you saying I'm failing to explain why*

Actually I will quote something. And not right above this because that is the same post, and you somehow said that Yoda/Obi Wan wanting to train another Jedi made less sense because they could turn into Anakin again, when Luke sensed the same power from someone who went straight to the dark... but we'll gloss over that because I didn't say "continue to train"...
Anyway, onto an older quote where you directly refer to this discussion:

Luke's decision to walk makes more sense because the next person he decided to train had darkness, immense power like Ben, and liked Ben... so he (continued to, I have to remember to add that) trained her anyway.

Can we flip this around a little?

"Luke's decision to walk didn't make sense because he was freely accepting of another possible Ben to combat Ben."

That's in the simplest way I can think of explaining it. I'd talk about this more, but I hope this suffices.

Luke wouldn't have tried to burn those texts had Rey not proven him wrong though. Also, I used that example to show Luke's character at the time. "Conflicted" is a good word for it, because he goes everywhere with character once Rey shows up, which was my point.
He gets proven wrong by Rey only to go and try and burn all the Jedi texts, but then Yoda does it instead, and Luke gets upset at that.
Luke was acting like a teenager in that scene until Yoda calmed him down. Which was my point. I'm sure you'll say conflicted, and I won't disagree, but it's just weird to see him act that way.
"I'm going to crash my car into a tree."
"No, why did you sell my car?"
There's better examples to use of course, but I'm lazy, and it's the first thing that came to me. I know why he did what he did, it was just weird is all to see it.

Bad phrasing I guess. Luke only wants the Jedi to end in his own words once Rey begins her training. I'm not so sure he actively wanted to end the Jedi after Ben, or he just wanted to quit. It's possible he only thought about the actual act in full once Rey showed up. But that's just me arguing semantics.
Either way, I was just trying to show a shift in character. He went from wanting to die and never being around anyone, to him actively teaching someone the force just so they could see the Jedi way had to end. Then he changed again, and realized the Jedi were alright. Which is why I said Luke was not Luke in this movie. Because he was "different" Luke's at multiple times in the movie.

I fully agree with your last paragraph though. I just have a different interpretation of how I see this in relation to Luke's character. I'm not disagreeing with the events so much as I am disagreeing with Luke being the one it happens to.

All while being actively clouded by the most powerful darkside user in history though. We are beaten across the face with why things played out the way they did. Because of Sidious. Luke however, did things because of what he did. He was faced with a tough choice, but someone wasn't clouding his mind and everything around it to force him to make bad decisions.

But I'm sure it taught him events, not arguing that. What happened is still a valuable lesson, I just don't think the fault lies on the Jedi there.

And Yoda never spazzed out and let himself go a bunch of different versions of his himself and got himself into a tizzy to end the Jedi Way, or at least he didn't once he became a master. That is what I'm saying. Luke should have been wise enough to see that the way he was living was not the correct way. "Failure being a teacher" is correct (and also a crutch to explain away his actions), but it doesn't excuse him from falling so deep into these thoughts. Luke was supposed to be wise enough not to fall into these mindsets. That doesn't mean that he can't make mistakes, it just means he should have the knowledge to know these aren't the way. As he learned. As "failure" taught him it wasn't the way.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Oh my God... Luke had flawed reasoning in every SW movie he has been in. He's not perfect. A character being perfectly reasonable isn't a requirement to make a good character in a film, book, or whatever. Also, your last question in that quote is quite loaded.

As for Old Luke not being like OLD Luke, this is a "yes and no" answer. I've explained it several times. Same individual, yet expressing differences due to age, experience, and everything else that comes with time passing. But you're admitted he failed to a point that he changed into a different personality, and then he realized his failure and grew largely because of it.
I'm not saying he's perfect, but when he goes through a bunch of different attitudes throughout the one film, it's hard to call it being entirely in character. That's it. It can be explained sure, but there were enough heavy jumps in character to assume all of them were perfectly Luke. Especially when some of these characters or most of them were entirely from TLJ and not from OT. Luke wanting to die for example is a new one, especially since the last time he faced adversity he was screaming for his father to save him.
Plus him turning back into what we assume was the same as Old Luke didn't really show the best example of failure making him stronger... but I digress.

Originally posted by The Lost

No, this isn't a given when this occurs but, in this film, it is.

"They wish to leave the past in the past to forge something new and better."

^ What I said earlier. That is what I mean by "the same coin." They share something in common (the coin) but approach it differently (the sides).

Come on, dude...

Alright, I'll concede on this.

I was more thinking of Luke just wanting to die while ignoring him wanting the Jedi to die, but yeah, different Luke.

Originally posted by The Lost
Yet, you've thoroughly failed to explain why. You think I am creating motivation because I disagree with yours. Yours is simple enough but simple does not mean correct or what was intended by the creators of the film. I think I've pointed out enough of this not to go into it here. That is me failing to explain why.

Anyway, but sometimes the story is that simple though. Sometimes things do appear out of order regardless of motivations.

Saying it makes sense because... is not the same as being in character though.

In a nutshell all the things that happen to Luke in the movie are summed up as the straw that broke the camel's back. And I think it's not the same as what we saw of Luke before. It really is that simple of the stances here.

I mean, you're going in depth and all, but on the surface it still is that argument. What you're saying makes sense, but does it make sense for Luke is the argument? And the that's a tough one because Luke didn't get to that stage in the OT despite some pretty wicked shit and successes predicating more of this behavior (hope and optimism).

We're debating what we feel is correct for Luke. And it is that simple. That doesn't mean simplicity without reasons should be accepted, but it doesn't mean simple in itself is necessarily wrong.

But anyway, I admit I was debating from a different place, but I still agree with my prior simplicity.

Originally posted by The Lost
You don't understand. Luke knows about this. He knows it's happened before and the galaxy was lost because of it. It takes a willing ignorance to think Luke hadn't discussed or considered that Ben could be redeemed but, when you say redeemed, it means you're AT LEAST indirectly acknowledging that Ben was already gone.

Luke knew this but when is Ben going to be redeemed? At the end, like Vader, after more people get wiped out and Snoke collects more influence, control, power, etc? The old Luke didn't go through this. The old Luke knew what happened to the Jedi in the PT and had a moment where he thought he may be able to COMPLETELY prevent that and people think it's nuts? Out of character? Luke was willing to end an already established evil Empire in the OT so, seeing it spiral all out of control AGAIN was too much and led to this brief instinct.

Luke realizes that cannot work (obviously) but the consequences surpass any attempt for him to find a new solution to the Snoke/Kylo/First Order problem so he flees into exile. Rey comes along and Luke is very wary and careful about how to deal with this but comes to an understanding that Rey could perhaps grow past this cycle and create something greater out of it.
Ben wasn't gone at that point, but he did need to be redeemed back to the lightside if he was so in the dark. Luke should have tried to win him back from the clutches of Snoke if he felt him so far gone is that point. I still think Luke led to the creation of the these terrible visions, or indirectly helped make them reality, but we're looking at this from Luke's perspective. Ben was gone in Luke's eyes. He needed redemption. Or:
"This ultimately leads Luke to understand that Ben may be beyond the pull of the dark side and Ben's obvious ambition, regardless of the cost, but Luke understands that Ben may not be so far gone that he cannot atone or discover redemption."

From the start.

As soon as possible though is when it should have been attempted. All we know from the film is that Luke went to the "Might kill him" phase before the "redemption" phase. Luke taking him in in the first place could be seen as trying to win him to the light, but the underlying concept of the film is that no one actually tried to tackle his potential darkside directly. They were even hiding the greatest redemption story in Jedi history from Ben as well, in his grandfather. Which conflicts with the assumption that they tried to steer him away from the dark directly. That seems like a pretty pertinent topic when you're worried he will become the exact same.
From the film, it seems like the redemption was supposed to happen or start to happen starting from that scene. Which is why he needed to sense how in the dark he was. Had he tried this earlier in person with Ben, I have my doubts he wouldn't directly sense his mind while they're awake to deal with the coming dark. Then he would have sensed the same thing.
Anyway, Luke went to go sense his mind so he could then deal with the darkside (we'll ignore the shady way Luke did this). This seems likely the point where he realizes he has to know what he's dealing with so he can possibly deal with Ben's dark together with Ben. Luke flopped.
So, as I said, the redemption would ideally be as soon as possible. It's just that it was never attempted as Luke went a slightly different way instead, and now we (apparently) get a trilogy because of it.

Again though, the solution didn't have to be a new Jedi order, and I'm sure there were Jedi off world as well (if I recall correctly, the Rens were slaughtering Jedi off world). The solution would be to gather all forces led by Luke, to crush the First Order in its infancy, or at least Ren and Snoke. That seems the most likely solution to that issue.
At that stage in time, for simplicity sake, Luke's force was the Empire, and the First Order were the Rebellion.
He could have tried is all.

One Big Mob

Originally posted by The Lost
Uh, no. Rey lost the fight with Luke. She knocks Luke on the head and Luke force pulls an antenna and outclasses her completely. Hits her, effortlessly blocks her advances, and disarms her before Rey has to introduce a lightsaber into the fight and this brazen behavior shocks Luke.

Despite your facetious comment, Luke discusses Snoke's influence in Kylo when he discussing what happened in the temple during the PAST so it's not indicative of his current feelings. Pay attention or watch the film again. Sheesh.

Luke assisted Rey but Yoda confirms that Rey has strong instincts toward the light. This is why Luke force projects to Kylo (among other reasons) and NOT Rey. Although, I doubt Luke is done training Rey (still a ninth movie coming) so there's that. Luke can do more through being one with the force now. He can guide Rey and criticize/try to help/harass Kylo. Luke knows this and knew he couldn't continue to train Rey in his conflicted state. It's why he refuses the lightsaber once more after their duel in the rain. The person who ends up with a lightsaber at their throat on the ground did not win the fight. He might have shown more skill, but she bested him there, or at least at the end. There's no way she lost the fight when he's on the ground with a lightsaber pointed at him while yielding. He looked superior to her, but it is an intense spin to say she lost. Not only that, but it directly forced him to tell the truth about what happened with Ben. Also something I overlooked, but she said she saw his future and said Ben could be turned... and you said something about visions being the truth earlier... and Luke gave up from trying to turn him... meh, not worth it.

I was talking about the past and present though. Snoke was too far into Luke, and Luke during that period of time didn't think he could be redeemed. It was only after Yoda taught him. Rey was telling him Ben could be redeemed, and Luke told her not to do it.

But all that you said only aligns with what I said. Luke didn't really teach her anything. His actions did... actually, not really sure she learned anything really except how to get into the force better...
Anyway, Rey and Yoda taught Luke the lessons, as well as his own actions. Everything Luke passed on was not his own intention, and when he did intend to pass on things, Rey ignored it.

Also, Rey having strong instincts towards the light would have been the reason Luke thought to project to Ben. Because what she said got through to him. And Yoda confirmed she was correct to a degree. Luke didn't have to speak to Rey because he started to believe in her. Plus it's really possible he sensed she was going out the backdoor. He needed to inspire and help his friends though, and if he hadn't everyone would have died regardless of what Rey did.

Though I am curious to see how Luke is handled in the next film. Hopefully he doesn't go through another development.

Originally posted by The Lost
THIS is what makes Luke wise. He taught Rey some things but could also take something away from the Rey's youthful hope and understanding. It went BOTH ways. Your biggest problem is thinking motivations and character developments need to be either one thing or another and this has led you to misunderstand a great deal concerning this film. The biggest problem is that all that Rey really taught him is hope and optimism. Something he was full of in the OT. He basically failed for however many years to go back to the start, which I admit happens a lot in real life, but it's a big reason why I say he was out of character.

My biggest problem is thinking this character development was unnecessary for Luke since he had an entire trilogy to arrive at what he ended up as at the end of the movie. That character development would have been better served into Rey. The main person of the new trilogy would be better served that than someone who already went through a lot of failures and character development already.

Originally posted by The Lost
Yes, he exiled himself because, once more, the Jedi were crushed and the galaxy was being threatened after he sacrificed so much and put himself on the line to save it. If that's not enough to walk away, EDUCATE me on what the **** is. Luke is older now and understands the contributing role that the Jedi had in allowing Sidious to do what he did. That's a part of growing up. "Oh, hey, I'm not who I am any longer because I got older and my perspectives have changed." Hahaha, WHAT. THE. ****.

He wasn't cowardly, dude. He was traumatized, especially considering he blames himself.

Child? Dude...

TWEEEEEEEEEEEENTTTTYYYYYY THHHHREEEEEEEEEEEE

Luke, in his old age, represents caution, wisdom, and the hope of his youth with the understanding of his aged maturity. THAT is what he conclusively balances by the end of TLJ, so there's your stage. I think Luke already seen the worst of the galaxy to put this into his character. I think a lesser character than him would be more in their right to walk away had their order been decimated. The problem is, Luke wasn't a lesser Jedi. We saw Obi Wan and Yoda walk away in a different circumstance, but they only walked away to fight another day. Not to die. Luke was every bit as hopeful and optimistic as them at the end of the OT after reaffirming his hope and optimism. Yoda dealt with some sick shit, and even had to stumble due to feeling it out at the time, but he never lost hope. Luke did.
Like you told me, we aren't dealing with real people here. We are dealing with demi Gods with unnatural drive that would walk through what would break the strongest man on the planet.

But yeah, different interpretations on how we see Luke.

So Luke only at the end of the movie then? He pretty much represents the same thing as OT, outside additional wisdom, which again should have stopped some things from happening to say the least.
I'm sure you can agree that I wasn't asking what he represented at the end though. Especially when this whole conversation sparked from how Luke acted before hand.

Also, the very infant Benny Solo. 23 months old. stick out tongue

Nephthys

https://i.imgur.com/qaHqtyH.gif

One Big Mob

Last Post

Originally posted by The Lost
No one was prepared for a SW film to contain such nuance and this is lost in petty and usually inaccurate criticism.

Too bad.

The Last Jedi made its own Luke. A different Luke. A lot of people will have to grow to like that Luke, or just dislike it forever.

Hamill apparently grew to like it. I'm sure others can too. But that doesn't mean criticisms can't be lobbed that way.

You've made me a little more open minded, and I'm actually anxious to see it for the second time though... in blu ray quality since the bootleg sucks. I might even grow to like this Luke, who knows.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, that will be my last thoughts on the subject. I feel like I've said everything I wanted to this time. It will just be my interpretation beats yours from here on out in all reality, which is my issue with this sort of thing. It's not based so much on proof so much, as it's based on how we view subjective things and subjective characters.

I'm trying to prove to you that your opinion is wrong because my opinion makes more sense, and you're trying to tell me my opinion is wrong because your opinion makes more sense. It turns very circular quick. Not saying you can't say more, it's just that I don't want to. I really don't want to repeat myself a little bit different for 30-60 posts laughing out loud

However, this was fun and new and interesting to me, so I didn't mind just this once. I incorrectly assumed I was still in the "prove it" comic forums, and you were just a man fitting narratives into why it made sense, so I apologize for coming at you a little arseholish originally.
You could reinforce, and defend your opinion, and I commend you for it. Plus this might be the only time I've ever been told I'm not explaining myself, so that was an eye opener. laughing out loud

I feel the first 3 posts of mine were of better quality as to what you wanted as they were done earlier in the day, and then the rest is from a different mindset so I didn't indulge as much that train of thought I feel. I actually kind of went on autopilot and got lazy so meh, some parts are going to be shitty maybe. Who knows.

I also learned that if this happens again, I'm just going to separate everything that's largely the same into one point as opposed to replying to the same thing over and over. I think that would save a lot of individual points and a scattered mind.

Anyway, before you reply, or if you even read it, I will ask something of you. I will not be debating anymore, but this is more so I can improve myself in the future if I get into this sort of debate again. Be as harsh as you want, I don't mind. Always striving for improvement.

1. First is that you reply to this post before you send your reply, or as soon as possible
2. Did anything I say actually change your mind or make you doubt your position?
3. Did I present my case any better?
And 4 and possibly the most important of all...
What did you think of Leia flying?

There were some other things I was going to ask, but I forgot.

Right now I'm in an agree to disagree mode though, so thumb up

Send me a PM about this about a month after the Blu Ray version comes out and ask me if my thoughts have changed if you want.