recent feats--marvel vs dc

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leonidas
from a different thread. it feels to me like dc guys have been getting OP of late--something i am personally not especially happy with. maybe i'm wrong? here is a place to post some recent feats by both of the major companies. try and stay within the last 5 years. my feeling is the dc side will be able to post more outlier style feats than their marvel counterparts by a significant margin.

what's the implication? that dc's characters are in general, simply portrayed as more powerful more often. as i said, maybe i'm wrong. hopefully this thread can shine a bit of light on the subject and open the subject for discussion.

spetznaz

Zack M
The heroes of DC started out (DCnU) inferior to their Pre-Flashpoint counterparts, but that didn't last long. You have Superman

Superman: Bench pressing the weight of a planet and moving Brainiac's ship (With the help of Martian Manhunter) that was a LOT bigger than Earth.

Wonder Woman: Who temporarily became the God of War, but has a lot more power than her Pre-Flashpoint self.

Hal Jordan: Who became the god of Will and basically owned Pre-Zero Hour Parallax, among other crazy shit.

Sinestro: Who can completely control Parallax now.

Kyle Rayner: Who mastered ALL the rings in the spectrum and temporarily became Jesus. lol

Even street characters like Batman, Body Doubles, Nightwing, Midnighter, Grifter etc... are all more superior to their Pre-Flashpoint, Wildstorm selves.

leonidas
@phil--his FEATS make me think he should beat zod. i mean is zod trans too now?? if so, that only furthers my point. he had great stories BEFORE superman was trans. the escalation makes no sense, and is not necessary. and in its wake, ALL superman's enemies need to be amped somehow.

you're right, to each his own, but this continual escalation seems unnecessary and detracts from the characters imo.

as regards flash: i like flash too, but when reading it i can't help but feel many of the plots are...ridiculous. i find it frustrating when he is knowingly lessened by plot. with him it's always been that way though so you live with it. but like i said, i think we need LESS of that, and more creative writing when it comes to letting heroes solve problems. this increase in power feels like lazy writing to me. /shrug

@the french guy: actually what i advocate is the exact OPPOSITE. i want better plots, that require LESS suspension of disbelief with problems that are solved in ways OTHER than a character suddenly exceeds their limits, or gets more powerful somehow as a way to solve things. sneer

leonidas
this discussion is more focused to the major heroes in each, and i'm not sure it's really close at all in terms of which group of characters over the last few years has had a bigger push. the dc staples (gl's, ww, superman) have been prone to some crazy feats over the last group of years. aside from hulk on occasion, i don't think many marvel characters can be said to have done the same--at least not with the regularity of their dc counterparts. perhaps as a WHOLE the universes are equal, but looking at just the staple characters? i don't see it being very close atm, though i am open to being proven wrong.

DarkSaint85
Contrast and compare:

Thor/Iron Man/Hulk/Cap America/Spiderman

Superman/WW/Batman/GL/Flash

The gap between their showings is clear I took these as the top five from each company in terms of branding

Digi
Power creep is an issue across iterative fictiondom, not just comics. It's a famously well-known DBZ issue, for instance, and has even inspired parodies of the phenomenon like One Punch Man.

If it's happening in comics - or DC in particular - it's definitely a (potential) hindrance to consistent storytelling. The entire medium is predicated on powers and their interactions, and how those relate to more human problems. The further the powers get from the believable and consistent, the more they threaten to undermine plots that serve the characters. And the more we'll notice "PIS" instead of the other creative aspects of a book.

We're having this discussion on a board almost exclusively devoted to the dissection of power levels, so issues of this nature can be magnified artificially because of that slant. It's probably not as big a deal as Leo thinks, but that doesn't mean problems from this don't exist. We can also get hung up on non-arguments like whether DC or Marvel is more powerful as a whole. Our vs. threads can be great intellectual fodder, but no one should legitimately care about such things; it's schoolyard f*ckery at its most adolescent. But even ignoring that debate, I do agree it's an issue.

The companies do this to themselves. Fans froth at feats, yet when we talk about the "best" writing, it's invariably NOT because of power levels. Yet they cater to the former a lot.

My personal solution is not to give af about the big companies anymore, or when I do to basically ignore power displays and their consistency or lack thereof, but I realize that won't suffice for many readers. I don't know that there's a broader solution, but I'd tend to side with teh idea that it's not ideal for either company.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
@phil--his FEATS make me think he should beat zod. i mean is zod trans too now?? if so, that only furthers my point. he had great stories BEFORE superman was trans. the escalation makes no sense, and is not necessary. and in its wake, ALL superman's enemies need to be amped somehow.

you're right, to each his own, but this continual escalation seems unnecessary and detracts from the characters imo.

as regards flash: i like flash too, but when reading it i can't help but feel many of the plots are...ridiculous. i find it frustrating when he is knowingly lessened by plot. with him it's always been that way though so you live with it. but like i said, i think we need LESS of that, and more creative writing when it comes to letting heroes solve problems. this increase in power feels like lazy writing to me. /shrug
Well, since you brought it up - why wouldn't Zod be trans? He has literally one-shotted Supergirl, for example:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11126/111268932/5967155-9368687445-5961728-9163359163-150040241659663

Did this to Cyborg Superman while his brain was hanging out:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11126/111268932/5969759-1439612768-trco0.jpg

Imagine a character coming to Marvel and roflstomping Silver Surfer with ease (who Hal has been at least an equal and I'd wager visibly more powerful for a while now), one-shotting Thor (who Supergirl is, again, at least phyislcally comparable), and generally trampling everybody he comes across? He'd make Nefaria seem like a warm-up.

I have to be honest, I don't get exactly what is bothering you. It can't be that power is inconsistent with the needs of the plot - that is literally the history of comics. All Flash comics. All Superman comics. All Wonder Woman comics All etc. would be over in a panel. 99% of mid-high heralds are broken in terms of power, for decades, so why now?. Why do you suddenly point it out now? Story dictates power-usage, not the reverse. So what's left? That Superman Villains are overpowered? That Superman is? That Hal is overpowered and yet Zod beats him? That Marvel can't no longer compete?

Does it make that much of a different for you that Superman can bench a planet or a Sun? That Hal can one-shot a planet or ten? That Flash can run a trillion times the speed of light, or a trillion trillion times the speed of light? Because in terms of story, it doesn't. Once you move at planetary range, or lightspeed (+), everything beyond that is redundant. Whether you're lightspeed, or a trillion times that, none of them work in a logical setting. Whether you can move a planet, or ten, same thing.

You know I'm not trying to be facetious, but I'm not following.

xJLxKing

quanchi112
Butthurt continues.

tkitna
I thought it would take magic or something mystical to bring down the Void, but I was wrong. So far, Bob's been the only thing that can defeat him.

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Doctor-Strange-2015/Issue-385?id=130569#8
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Doctor-Strange-2015/Issue-385?id=130569#9
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Doctor-Strange-2015/Issue-385?id=130569#10
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Doctor-Strange-2015/Issue-385?id=130569#11

Mindship
DC has always shown a general tendency to be over-the-top, in part because DC is the Icon's (Superman's) home, and well, Big Blue more/less always saves the day, no matter the scale of the threat. This is the essence of the character.

But also -- I've brought this up many a time; I wish I could remember who made this point initially -- because DC doesn't have as developed a cosmic / abstract hierarchy as Marvel, often it is DC's finest who have to rise to the cosmic challenge, wherein in Marvel, it's not as essential (still happens, but not as often).

Marvel (at least at first) always went for the generally "more realistic" power portrayal. If they do go over-the-top, my impression is that they have DC in mind, especially since crossovers began and sides had to seem more even.

Again, just my impression.

RealityWarper
Originally posted by tkitna
I thought it would take magic or something mystical to bring down the Void, but I was wrong. So far, Bob's been the only thing that can defeat him.

http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Doctor-Strange-2015/Issue-385?id=130569#8
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Doctor-Strange-2015/Issue-385?id=130569#9
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Doctor-Strange-2015/Issue-385?id=130569#10
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Doctor-Strange-2015/Issue-385?id=130569#11

Or Thanos "We don't know how he killed the Marvel Universe" the Mad Titan.

leonidas
@phil--you sort of answered your own question regarding the WHY i brought this up. you just said that supes is pretty clearly trans, made a case zod could easily take out thor or ss and that gl has now well surpassed ss. in the past all those dc guys were firmly entrenched in the herald tier--zod wasn't even high herald, now you're saying he could be seen as trans? the power scaling then affects others around them, dragging them up in their wake--villains, corollary heroes, etc. seems unnecessary and like the company is pandering to the forum crowds--which, let's face it, is the low common denominator (in general) when it comes to fans.

this isn't adversely affecting my life or anything (lol) nust an observation and a realization that it's a trend i don't much like.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
@phil--you sort of answered your own question regarding the WHY i brought this up. you just said that supes is pretty clearly trans, made a case zod could easily take out thor or ss and that gl has now well surpassed ss. in the past all those dc guys were firmly entrenched in the herald tier--zod wasn't even high herald, now you're saying he could be seen as trans? the power scaling then affects others around them, dragging them up in their wake--villains, corollary heroes, etc. seems unnecessary and like the company is pandering to the forum crowds--which, let's face it, is the low common denominator (in general) when it comes to fans.

this isn't adversely affecting my life or anything (lol) nust an observation and a realization that it's a trend i don't much like. thumb up

It doesn't affect me much because I ALWAYS saw Superman as trans. I always saw Wonder Woman as Thor equivalent, GLs as Surfer equivalents etc. I think what changed most significantly is the push the WW & GLC has gotten, to the point where even Jessica does crazy shit, and Wonder Woman one-shots Shaggy Man and whatnot.

In my case, this was basically everybody else seeing it, due to DC also ramping up on showing it insistently, to the point where it can't really be denied anymore (well, there's still people as always arguing to the contrary, but you know...)

It's why I always pointed out that I never really argue Superman at his best on the forum -- him and Flash are kind of broken from the start.

carver9
I will post scans and it will primarily be about Hulk tbh since the guy has been shining more than any Herald I can think of.

carver9
Hulk absorbs energy that would kill ANY being on the planet (we have people like Zeus that is walking earth). Not only does he withstands it, the attack was getting more powerful by the second and he still endured it...

Originally posted by carver9
This speaks for itself.

http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/24617869_The_Totally_Awesome_Hulk_2015-_001-016.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/24617870_The_Totally_Awesome_Hulk_2015-_001-017.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/24617871_The_Totally_Awesome_Hulk_2015-_001-018.jpg http://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/24617872_The_Totally_Awesome_Hulk_2015-_001-019.jpg

carver9
Flex and knock back at least 12 beings that are as strong as She Hulk...

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/26322078/The_Totally_Awesome_Hulk_2015-_004-008.jpg.html
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/26322073/The_Totally_Awesome_Hulk_2015-_004-014.jpg.html

DarkSaint85
Lol She Hulk.

Next it will be ten Warpaths.

Edit: not quite sure Carver understands the arguments here.

'Marvel characters don't have as high showings as DC characters'

Carver: I'll post showings of Marvel characters. RELATIVE to other Marvel characters, to prove.....their superiority over DC?

It's like saying you're the fastest man in the world...but even then you'd still be a snail next to the SSC.

carver9
Hulk and Red punches shaking Earth.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/22837414/Hulk_2014-_014-012.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/22952952/Hulk_2014-_015-006.jpg.html

Smiles after being punched in the face multiples of times by Captain Marvel.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/21429685/Avengers_2012-_039-017.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/21429686/Avengers_2012-_039-018.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/21429687/Avengers_2012-_039-019.jpg.html

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17094436_Longshot_Saves_The_Marvel_Universe_002-014.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17094438_Longshot_Saves_The_Marvel_Universe_002-015.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17094439_Longshot_Saves_The_Marvel_Universe_002-016.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17094441_Longshot_Saves_The_Marvel_Universe_002-017.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17094442_Longshot_Saves_The_Marvel_Universe_002-018.jpg

The In Betweener who was operating at insane levels (controlling an IG user and the Phoenix Force and ripping reality to shreds with his presence) nearly depleted himself holding Hulk in place.

I'm not even close to done.

carver9
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol She Hulk.

Next it will be ten Warpaths.

Edit: not quite sure Carver understands the arguments here.

'Marvel characters don't have as high showings as DC characters'

Carver: I'll post showings of Marvel characters. RELATIVE to other Marvel characters, to prove.....their superiority over DC?

It's like saying you're the fastest man in the world...but even then you'd still be a snail next to the SSC.

I understand what he's saying but one high showing doesn't justify the many tbh. I'm posting fts. I hope people just don't post a single ft answering Leo question. I understand you questioning the She Hulk scan but the rest are solid.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Contrast and compare:

Thor/Iron Man/Hulk/Cap America/Spiderman

Superman/WW/Batman/GL/Flash

The gap between their showings is clear I took these as the top five from each company in terms of branding
Jane Thor showings is up there. Unworthy Thor has been depowered for like 4 years, but had some crazy fts in his short mini.

Hulk has been out for like 2 years and change? Chulk has had some crazy ones.

Cap is constantly out. And haven't really followed.

Who's Spiderman? stick out tongue

Current Surfer run since 2014 has had some crazy ones. Just not well publicized. Surfer fans seem to post then leave for quite a bit.

carver9
The fate of the world lies on your shoulders...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18002024/Uncanny_Avengers_017-003.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18002061/Uncanny_Avengers_017-009.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/18002028/Uncanny_Avengers_017-011.jpg.html

carver9
We know Dark rep DC so why doesn't he just post the showings to make the thread entertaining.

Rage.Of.Olympus
It's only perception.

If we had hardcore Surfer or Jane Thor fans here, you'd think they are Skyfather level based on their feats.

Remember my constant masturbation during God of Thunder? Even Galan was whipping out the lotion.

leonidas
actually carv if you'd been following the ownage thread (where the discussion started) i expressly mentioned hulk as the only character i feel was keeping pace with the scaling power levels in dc... your scans are proving my point regarding him, and tbh i'm surprised by the utter lack of defense being marshaled by marvel fans in general. i was willing to be proven wrong, but maybe even entrenched marvel fans agree that dc's staple characters have definitively surpassed marvel's. /shrug

abhilegend
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's only perception.

If we had hardcore Surfer or Jane Thor fans here, you'd think they are Skyfather level based on their feats.

Remember my constant masturbation during God of Thunder? Even Galan was whipping out the lotion.
You're saying that like you don't believe Thor is a skyfather.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by leonidas
actually carv if you'd been following the ownage thread (where the discussion started) i expressly mentioned hulk as the only character i feel was keeping pace with the scaling power levels in dc... your scans are proving my point regarding him, and tbh i'm surprised by the utter lack of defense being marshaled by marvel fans in general. i was willing to be proven wrong, but maybe even entrenched marvel fans agree that dc's staple characters have definitively surpassed marvel's. /shrug

I don't think anyone particularly cares as much at the moment unfortunately. For example, Carver is repping Hulk strong, but Hulk's feats kind of pale in comparison to what Surfer has been up to.

I recommend reading the current Thor books and Silver Surfer's run. It's littered with feats on par with anything DC has been doing if what you're basing it on is character ownage.

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't think anyone particularly cares as much at the moment unfortunately. For example, Carver is repping Hulk strong, but Hulk's feats kind of pale in comparison to what Surfer has been up to.

I recommend reading the current Thor books and Silver Surfer's run. It's littered with feats on par with anything DC has been doing if what you're basing it on is character ownage.

What has Surfer done?

abhilegend
Hard on space cheese, less than flattering showings against named characters though.

leonidas

Digi
This thread is for recent feats specifically. But are we just resigned to weighting older feats far less, even if they're still in canon? Stretch far enough back, and, for example, the Surfer discussion becomes moot. Even without recent feats, his past space cheese and highest showings equals the most ludicrous of any of the characters being discussed.

I always sort of knew I was in the minority by counting older stuff equal to recent feats, but I think the hardcore recency bias is a problem unto itself. Just statistically, if you only focus on a smaller chunk of time, the fluctuations will be wilder. Like a stock that averages 7% gains per year, but you're looking at month-to-month. Because chances are the pendulum will swing the other way at some point, or DC will plateau, etc. So in terms of griping about these things, widening our gaze might help immensely.

/srug

Galan007
So from what I've gathered by the wealth of information in this thread is that leo f*cking hates DC.

...mmm

Philosophía
Originally posted by Digi
This thread is for recent feats specifically. But are we just resigned to weighting older feats far less, even if they're still in canon? Stretch far enough back, and, for example, the Surfer discussion becomes moot. Even without recent feats, his past space cheese and highest showings equals the most ludicrous of any of the characters being discussed.

I always sort of knew I was in the minority by counting older stuff equal to recent feats, but I think the hardcore recency bias is a problem unto itself. Just statistically, if you only focus on a smaller chunk of time, the fluctuations will be wilder. Like a stock that averages 7% gains per year, but you're looking at month-to-month. Because chances are the pendulum will swing the other way at some point, or DC will plateau, etc. So in terms of griping about these things, widening our gaze might help immensely.

/srug The thing is, he really doesn't.

You can take out Hal out of the discussion, and GLs would still at the very least match any Silver Surfer feat.

Jessica, the noobest of Green Lanterns, has feats just in the last two years that match Surfer's best space cheese.

And Hal is basically at least a tier above any of the Green Lanterns that match Surfer's feats.

Galan007
^ Yeah, Hal is easily a solid tier above any other GL, tbh.

Kyle's reaction immediately after donning Hal's ring is indicative of such:
https://i.imgur.com/tTC8AAF.jpg

"Jesus. Is this how it feels to be you?"


...Never mind the fact that he could barely even manage to contain the ring's power.

Digi
@Phil ^^ I'd disagree, at least in reference to non-Hal stuff, and would say that that's some of the recency bias at work that I mentioned. For quite a while after I joined these boards, Surfer was widely considered to be the upper limit of his tier, with the widest array of versatility feats (by miles) and raw power feats that - while they might not have surpassed the GLs, Thors, and Supermans of the tier - held their own with them.

But that's a really hard debate to settle definitively, because how do you analyze it? I don't have a horse in the race ideologically, but would want some sort of objectivity. We'd devolve into posting entire respect threads and attempting to assign point values or something. How do you quantify a power level of someone who has dozens of unquantifiably powerful, nigh-abstract feats across decades of comics? Or weight them against more subtle versatility feats that not all could accomplish. You can't, and that's sort of the point.

One Big Mob

Philosophía
Originally posted by Digi
@Phil ^^ I'd disagree, at least in reference to non-Hal stuff, and would say that that's some of the recency bias at work that I mentioned. For quite a while after I joined these boards, Surfer was widely considered to be the upper limit of his tier, with the widest array of versatility feats (by miles) and raw power feats that - while they might not have surpassed the GLs, Thors, and Supermans of the tier - held their own with them.

But that's a really hard debate to settle definitively, because how do you analyze it? I don't have a horse in the race ideologically, but would want some sort of objectivity. We'd devolve into posting entire respect threads and attempting to assign point values or something. How do you quantify a power level of someone who has dozens of unquantifiably powerful, nigh-abstract feats across decades of comics? Or weight them against more subtle versatility feats that not all could accomplish. You can't, and that's sort of the point. It'd be easy to quantify it if you'd give me something that Surfer has done of raw power, that no GL has been capable of doing. Because what you're doing here is going by reputation, which is the only thing Surfer has, and it was such a Marvel echo-chamber that people took it for granted.

Say..5 feats under his own power, out of like a thousand appearances, that GLs can not match, excluding Hal Jordan entirely. That's more than reasonable.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Jessica tanked a big bang too? No, but neither did Surfer.

One Big Mob
Explain

Digi
@Phil - Off the top of my head? Channeling the Crunch to decimate Tenebrous/Aegis, that time he evolved the biology of an entire planet's species billions of years in like a single panel (he's got a few that are similar, too, of creating life ex nihilo), or the residual energies from his fight with Morg destroying multiple planets. He's also got matter manipulation feats that outstrip most GLs, like when he remade Stormbreaker. Or on durability, he's gone surfing in supernovas, using the explosion as propulsion, multiple times (for fun, it should be noted). He's also existed without a physical body, fwiw.

His historic versatility is just silly as well. He could enter or exit the microverse at will then become an astral projection, shape shift into an old lady, then follow the movement of a dust mote from light years away. And that's again just from memory.

Thor's fight with Mercy alone is another good example of this. Obviously he's taken a gut punch in recent years, but his historic best is comparable to anyone's who doesn't transcend into abstract godhood.

I feel like you're missing my point by pulling into a "show me the feats" war. Maybe a handful of GLs have better feats, and maybe you aren't really counting the versatility stuff that isn't over 9000, so to speak. But that list is like 1/30 of his best feats. So I won't argue with you if you just disagree, full stop. I don't care enough to parse them out any further. But you start splitting hairs after a certain point and unless we grant abstract status to heralds, there's just going to be several that exist in that upper strata, give or take small degrees of power.

Philosophía
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Explain Sure. It was explained that he needed Galactus' ship to survive the Universe's destruction, and onto the next Universe. You...see him be desperate to catch up to the ship. He grabbed onto the ship. The ship split the aleph in two, allowing the Universe to expand back again, while Surfer looked on from the Void at it taking shape:
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/36782644/SurferintheVoid.jpg.html

One Big Mob
Because he knew Galactus' ship was the epicenter of the big bang, and he knew it would take him to the next universe.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SvPhHh0Bsm8/WfB7qjHbfNI/AAAAAAAAFgE/M6nbW1OcPtE2AE-xdiFziQRCki9kP6JrQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO002.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/34ilicn.jpg


Which is why he had to grab onto his ship, as otherwise he might not have "arrived" in the new universe.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hvfMNOgKqkQ/WfB7rITmbvI/AAAAAAAAFgQ/tK90J-lVb3cWgPEe-upVMXRSfQ_mDbWbACHMYCw/s1600/RCO003.jpg


Him being in a void is consistent with a big bang, yes:
"After the initial expansion, the universe cooled sufficiently to allow the formation of_subatomic particles, and later simple_atoms. Giant clouds of these primordial elements later coalesced through_gravity_in halos of_dark matter, eventually forming the_stars_and_galaxies_visible today."

Though not sure what your argument would be here. There was a void and then everything formed because nothing happened?

leonidas
Originally posted by Digi
This thread is for recent feats specifically. But are we just resigned to weighting older feats far less, even if they're still in canon? Stretch far enough back, and, for example, the Surfer discussion becomes moot. Even without recent feats, his past space cheese and highest showings equals the most ludicrous of any of the characters being discussed.

I always sort of knew I was in the minority by counting older stuff equal to recent feats, but I think the hardcore recency bias is a problem unto itself. Just statistically, if you only focus on a smaller chunk of time, the fluctuations will be wilder. Like a stock that averages 7% gains per year, but you're looking at month-to-month. Because chances are the pendulum will swing the other way at some point, or DC will plateau, etc. So in terms of griping about these things, widening our gaze might help immensely.

/srug

it's for recent specifically only because i feel like the pendulum has really begun to only in more recent years. i see what you're saying--we have great feats from the past that can maybe match the recent dc ones. and maybe there are, but i don't think the number of even these older feats matches the more recent showings from dc. i think it can now legitimately be argued that hal and superman could b viewed as trans based on their recent feats. ww too could fall in that category. in the past, it was pretty definitively held that they were heralds. the older marvel feats weren't enough to raise those older marvel heroes to trans--ever. see the difference i'm trying to get at?

and again, ultimately, whatever. but it feels like the divide is getting larger. i'm open to being to proven wrong, but i've seen next to nothing posted (other than hulk) from marvel to prove me wrong. and even if a couple feats ARE shown, i don't think they can match the sheer number of feats performed by dc guys of late.

again, that's my perception of things and may not be accurate.



https://i.imgur.com/mPMiz5S.jpg

darthgoober
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Jessica tanked a big bang too?
Don't forget the fact that he's now older than the universe itself(for that matter he's actually older than Galactus by... well basically however old he was before he traveled to the previous universe lol), can hide from Eternity himself for Eons, and pulled off a solo universal level energy manipulation feet to boot.

How you been Bran?

Digi
Originally posted by leonidas
it's for recent specifically only because i feel like the pendulum has really begun to only in more recent years. i see what you're saying--we have great feats from the past that can maybe match the recent dc ones. and maybe there are, but i don't think the number of even these older feats matches the more recent showings from dc. i think it can now legitimately be argued that hal and superman could b viewed as trans based on their recent feats. ww too could fall in that category. in the past, it was pretty definitively held that they were heralds. the older marvel feats weren't enough to raise those older marvel heroes to trans--ever. see the difference i'm trying to get at?

and again, ultimately, whatever. but it feels like the divide is getting larger. i'm open to being to proven wrong, but i've seen next to nothing posted (other than hulk) from marvel to prove me wrong. and even if a couple feats ARE shown, i don't think they can match the sheer number of feats performed by dc guys of late.

again, that's my perception of things and may not be accurate.

Seems like there's consensus agreement though. And yeah, I see your point and tend to agree with it. Once fictional universes set their boundaries, being internally consistent is important. Power creep hinders that mightily.

I do think the forum has a laughably short memory, though. I'm not talking Silver Age or anything. But we've definitely created a "what have you done lately?" mentality that skews our perception of power levels.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by darthgoober
Don't forget the fact that he's now older than the universe itself(for that matter he's actually older than Galactus by... well basically however old he was before he traveled to the previous universe lol), can hide from Eternity himself for Eons, and pulled off a solo universal level energy manipulation feet to boot.

How you been Bran? He's overpowered infinite time loops, split Howard casually from the Nexus of Realities (though he still shared a psychic link), casually manipulated a cosmic storm that was going to destroy a planet, outpaced universal destruction, replicated the Never Queen's heart... power, and also seems like he transmuted it into a toy monkey. One punched Warrior Zero when he got serious (wait for it), slapped an army of horses including Beta Ray Bill, Thorse and Ego back to their homes, overpowered the Zenn Lavian merged Avengers including Jane Thor, and some other stuff in the last 3-4 years. I'd have to look at the fight where he fought the planet, and was manipulating her, cutting off sound, and then blasted her apart, since I don't think it's as easy as that. I probably won't go look at it though.

He's done ok for himself. He just doesn't fight that often, or in fights people want him to when he's traveling never before seen planets.


I'm ok. How about yourself?

Philosophía
I won't use recent Hal, since that would be unfair to you.

Originally posted by Digi
Channeling the Crunch to decimate Tenebrous/Aegis The crunch is external plot-device, not his own power. Is using external sources now part of the characters on the forum? The Surfer doesn't start forum fights next to the crunch, the same way Kyle doesn't start next to CPB in order to manipulate it and become Ion.

Put Surfer in a neutral setting and he'd get stomped by T&A....as he was, until the external plot-device crunch conveniently appeared.

Originally posted by Digi
or the residual energies from his fight with Morg destroying multiple planets. It destroyed a single planet, and he was outputting energy to beat Morg. Kyle blew up Oa. Kyle has rebuild a planet in its entirety. He has made the sun go supernova John held a planet together. Jessica held a planet together WHILE shielding it from a sun about to go supernova. I could go on and on. Planetary feats are child's play.

Originally posted by Digi
he's gone surfing in supernovas, using the explosion as propulsion, multiple times (for fun, it should be noted). It's easier to surf a wave, than to get hit in the face by it, wouldn't you say?

I'll do you better.
Kyle has contained supernovas in his constructs. John has tanked a supernova, and a planet exploding, one after another, and shielded Martian Manhunter in the process, too.

Originally posted by Digi
He could enter or exit the microverse Green Lantern rings can alter the size of themselves and/or other beings, aswell.

Hell, Kyle could manipulate planck-distance (i.e. the smallest length possible) to basically manipulate reality:
https://imgur.com/a/Bb45u

John has sent GL energy at sub-atomic level to combat opponents etc.

Originally posted by Digi
He's also existed without a physical body, fwiw.
Originally posted by Digi
shape shift into an old lady There's dozens of instances of Green Lanterns transmutating their own body, other people's body, devolving people, shapeshifting etc. I mean, I know you're just listing random stuff you can remember, but this isn't even close to proving any point. Kyle has existed literally as a spirit form (see JLA Obsidian Age, for example), among the other crazy shit they've done.

Originally posted by Digi
then follow the movement of a dust mote from light years away.lol? The Green Lantern ring is literally tracking stuff across the Universe, countless times. Even through time itself. Even to the other side of the Universe, such as the Source Wall. It's tracked energy trails, vibrations, psychic signatures, subatomic telepaths (lol) and a shitload of stuff.

The rings are also AI, and can be programmed to track specific movements. Like, for example, John telling the ring to shoot anybody above the speed of sound.

Originally posted by Digi
that time he evolved the biology of an entire planet's species billions of years in like a single panel (he's got a few that are similar, too, of creating life ex nihilo) Kyle and Kilowog has modified an entire planet's ecosystem. They've altered the DNA of opponents, transmutated nuclear missles etc.

Hal has literally stopped time across the planet to stretch into nanoseconds. Good luck matching that.

Originally posted by Digi
Thor's fight with Mercy alone is another good example of this. Obviously he's taken a gut punch in recent years, but his historic best is comparable to anyone's who doesn't transcend into abstract godhood.. That's simply not true. I know all of Surfer's feats, so I feel quite comfortable in saying that I can approximate all of them, while you won't be able to do so for Green Lanterns.

Originally posted by Digi
I feel like you're missing my point by pulling into a "show me the feats" war. Maybe a handful of GLs have better feats, and maybe you aren't really counting the versatility stuff that isn't over 9000, so to speak. But that list is like 1/30 of his best feats. So I won't argue with you if you just disagree, full stop. I don't care enough to parse them out any further. But you start splitting hairs after a certain point and unless we grant abstract status to heralds, there's just going to be several that exist in that upper strata, give or take small degrees of power. You can't throw a firecracker, and then just say "I won't argue full stop". If you say he is more powerful than Green Lanterns - nevermind current Hal, who is several tiers above usual Green Lanterns, then you have to prove it and don't go for "Many on the forum agreed in 2007!".

Like, I get that you don't have the physical time to stay that much on the forums, but you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Parmaniac
@Phil

"Kyle and Kilowog has modified an entire planet's ecosystem. They've altered the DNA of opponents, transmutated nuclear missles etc. "

Do you have a scan of that? Not that I don't believe you, I just like to see that.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Parmaniac
@Phil

"Kyle and Kilowog has modified an entire planet's ecosystem. They've altered the DNA of opponents, transmutated nuclear missles etc. "

Do you have a scan of that? Not that I don't believe you, I just like to see that. I'll try to fetch scans when I can.

I'm posting when I find gaps in time.

leonidas
some of bran's ss feats sound pretty cool if they are as he remembers them. certainly they sound like they are up there in power level....

Philosophía
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because he knew Galactus' ship was the epicenter of the big bang, and he knew it would take him to the next universe.

Which is why he had to grab onto his ship, as otherwise he might not have "arrived" in the new universe.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hvfMNOgKqkQ/WfB7rITmbvI/AAAAAAAAFgQ/tK90J-lVb3cWgPEe-upVMXRSfQ_mDbWbACHMYCw/s1600/RCO003.jpg


Him being in a void is consistent with a big bang, yes:
"After the initial expansion, the universe cooled sufficiently to allow the formation of_subatomic particles, and later simple_atoms. Giant clouds of these primordial elements later coalesced through_gravity_in halos of_dark matter, eventually forming the_stars_and_galaxies_visible today."

Though not sure what your argument would be here. There was a void and then everything formed because nothing happened? Galactus ship crashed into Alpha/Omega, causing it to split apart in opposite directions. You can actually see the two pieces moving away from Galactus' ship to expand into the Universe/Eternity, like a carpet. It's like having a gun that shoots in opposite directions to your location, and you consider it a durability feat of tanking the bullets. It wasn't even close to being presented as such, either.

I don't even want to start mentioning the fact that there were different laws of physics and his power cosmic worked completely different, until the 616 Universe was reformed, rendering everything invalid...even if you think that it...showed something?

celeyhyga17
It's up there.

Surfer is one cheesy pizza

celeyhyga17
Oh gawd this again.


Originally posted by celeyhyga17
thumb up



And for anyone bringing up outrunning the destruction of the previous universe yadda yadda, that's not the point.

The act of G's ship splitting the Alpha/Omega is what caused the big bang. All potential matter and energy was contained inside said Alpha/Omega.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s34bLKlSnrg/WO5EGxWOh8I/AAAAAAADM5M/dMxN6vb6YaMRMpLmyIUgdgKQQmhG7434wCLcB/s1600/071_006.jpg

As far as I know he wasn't inside the incuba-cell to shield him from such an explosion.
Massive feat any way u look at it. Surprising for a herald, I guess? But Surfer is usually considered in the high end of heralds and has a bevy of wtf feats. So not really all that surprising in the end.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
some of bran's ss feats sound pretty cool if they are as he remembers them. certainly they sound like they are up there in power level.... Read the two Silver Surfer series, they're quick mini-series basically.

Bran likes to use flower language, lol. The one thing I did find impressive was the phasing out of existence feat. That was great.

One Big Mob

Philosophía
Originally posted by One Big Mob
wait what?

If we take your interpretation as an indication, we would have a big bang that didn't form outwards in 360 degrees. You realize energy doesn't have to follow the two halves, don't you? You realize running into an explosion wouldn't magically bypass the explosion?

But anyway, we were told what would happen if Surfer ran into it anyway:
https://imgur.com/a/7f2fR



Also I'm curious where you were going with your "void" argument. The fact that we saw him front and center of the big bang means it's pointless to point out. But if you're arguing that he exited the universe to watch the universe form, then that would imply, at least by that series that he blew a hole in reality and slipped through. Which is a great feat don't get me wrong, but it wasn't stated on panel.

The two halves, as have been described, are a box to the Universe. Once the halves are separated, the Universe expands. The Universe is described as potential matter and energy, which the coalesces into actual matter and energy. The initial state of the Universe is basically a void that is constantly expanding. That's why it's said to be potential matter and energy, because it's not there yet. It's why Surfer has no reaction as the parts are separated, because he's not actually hit with anything - and nothing is even directed at him anyway. It's crazy to me that you'd see this as a durability feat in any way.

W-w---whyy did you just post that scan, to help me? Why crop it, lol? The next part is relevant. Surfer and Dawn are going back in time there and actually pass through the stages of the Universe in order to end up in the previous Universe. They're distorted due to the fact that time/space are meaningless, but are undamaged since, again, they're not actually hit with anything, it's just a timeless/spaceless region of non-Universe:

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/37712292_Silver_Surfer_013-007.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/37712297_Silver_Surfer_013-008.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/37712308_Silver_Surfer_013-009.jpg

Are we supposed to ignore how the series portrays the big bang, and how Surfer isn't hit with anything, to pretend that it's the bestest durability feat ever?

BONUS: different laws of physics/power cosmic scan.

Philosophía
Aaand sleep.

If your next post is more than my 1000ish chars reply, I will hunt you down. I don't have the stamina for extended shit.

carver9
Originally posted by One Big Mob
He's overpowered infinite time loops, split Howard casually from the Nexus of Realities (though he still shared a psychic link), casually manipulated a cosmic storm that was going to destroy a planet, outpaced universal destruction, replicated the Never Queen's heart... power, and also seems like he transmuted it into a toy monkey. One punched Warrior Zero when he got serious (wait for it), slapped an army of horses including Beta Ray Bill, Thorse and Ego back to their homes, overpowered the Zenn Lavian merged Avengers including Jane Thor, and some other stuff in the last 3-4 years. I'd have to look at the fight where he fought the planet, and was manipulating her, cutting off sound, and then blasted her apart, since I don't think it's as easy as that. I probably won't go look at it though.

He's done ok for himself. He just doesn't fight that often, or in fights people want him to when he's traveling never before seen planets.


I'm ok. How about yourself?

If Superman did 2 of the things you've put in this post, KMC would rank him as Skyfather. Surfer doesn't get any love.

One Big Mob

One Big Mob

Philosophía
Originally posted by One Big Mob
So your argument is that the big bang is actually nothing because the words potential were used? Also the two halves weren't directed at Surfer in case the initial blast was actually something?
Seems you have your bases covered.

You realize creating all matter and energy includes creating other forms of energy, correct? That doesn't mean that the initial blast for whatever reason didn't contain energy, it means that it contained all the matter and energy to form other forms of matter. You need an immense release of energy to accomplish this in the first place. You know this too. And every showing of the big bang showed an explosion of energy, or an explosion of something.

The fact that "big bang" was used more than once to describe this phenomenon shows it was an explosion, and it was likened to how Earth scientists describe the big bang, which means it's as we define it, as opposed to a... silent expanse?
I just logged in to see how much you typed, but since it's short on what to address, I'll just point out the following (maybe I'll get back to the time-travel tomorrow, but it's pretty useless and a tangential part of the argument anyway)

This part here, Bran:


Wait, wait, wait...Hold on.
I think I figured it out. Why you don't see it.
You do KNOW that the Big-Bang isn't an ACTUAL explosion, right? That it's just space expanding in non-space/time? In fact, the Universe is expanding right now, second by second. It's filling up, for a lack of a better word, nothingness.

You're imagining dynamite, when it's actually a balloon with points on it, expanding into nothingness (as in, literal nothingness. It's not even space. Space/time doesn't exist outside the Universe), and the points getting further away.

It's dilatation, if it helps for a clear visualization.

Before you do anything read this, because otherwise you won't understand what I'm explaining:
https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/relativity-space-astronomy-and-cosmology/history-of-the-universe/big-bang-expansion-not-explosion/

We know for a fact that the Universe was a Void only with potential matter/energy, but at that point not materialized.

So you have Surfer sitting with Galactus's ship as an empty void of potential energy is expanding around him, and you take that as...a durability feat? I can't understand how the presentation of the scene didn't tip you off that Surfer literally wasn't hit with anything. He was surrounded by empty space spreading at rapid rate.

Surfer was basically standing dead-center in an empty balloon that was expanding around him.

But seriously, read that shit. I think by the end of it, you'll agree with me that....you didn't really see the big bang in the way it is. Look at it explained from the point of kinetic energy, laws of physics etc...to understand that 'being hit by space expanding' is idiotic.

Damborgson
I went to Twitter to ask Dan Slott hos intentions, and he closed it because he waa getting hit with too many anti SJW comments laughing out loud

Philosophía
Originally posted by Damborgson
I went to Twitter to ask Dan Slott hos intentions, and he closed it because he waa getting hit with too many anti SJW comments laughing out loud It's late here, so I don't know if I've been coherent enough in the explanation, lol. Hopefully the article is self explanatory.

It's hard to understand how the Universe is space/time expanding into a place where there's no time and space, I guess, and seeing how this can't be interpreted in any way as something 'hitting you' - especially when you haven't looked into it.

TheHulkster

celeyhyga17
What are we arguing here? The comic depicted it as an explosion. Lol. Now he did endure the big bang, but it's not really a violent explosion...
And I'm pretty sure big bang in comics tend to be depicted as some massive genesis explosion of sorts. Take Imperiex depiction for example.

abhilegend
Originally posted by One Big Mob
He's overpowered infinite time loops

Is that what we are calling it now? He made a new choice of taking the ring from Dawn and Never Queen let him go.

He also got stomped by Collector in the same issue.
There was nothing casual about it. The storm was draining him until Groot shorted it out with a wire (lol) and Surfer channeled it in the earth.
He flew in the past but yes it was impressive.
Most impressive thing he did. The heart looked different from user to user. Dawn saw it as a toy monkey.
Who was weakened due to using his life force to track Surfer.

That's just slapstick comedy.
That's not what happened. He blasted them away but there was no indication that they were koed or anything.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ns2XefQSiJY/WZRY_HBO5LI/AAAAAAAArJ0/6Joh2cOL3uYadhBbYiPInyxPoJ7WSib1ACLcBGAs/s1600/023_0015.jpg

He was struggling with Thing alone in that issue.

He fought the spirit of a planet and he did that.

He struggled with Thing, got stomped by Collector and was totally ineffectual against Fury with a Watcher power even with him going all out.

Looks like classic Surfer to me.

abhilegend
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
What are we arguing here? The comic depicted it as an explosion. Lol. Now he did endure the big bang, but it's not really a violent explosion...
And I'm pretty sure big bang in comics tend to be depicted as some massive genesis explosion of sorts. Take Imperiex depiction for example.
laughing out loud

"He took an explosion. Not just a violent one".

ermm

One Big Mob

abhilegend
Yeah guy, Silver Surfer tanked a big bang. Never think otherwise.

Forget the context. It's totally tanking big bang. Just like that one time Blastaar and Thing tanked big bang.

thumb up

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by abhilegend
laughing out loud

"He took an explosion. Not just a violent one".

ermm
What's next? His silvery skin took the brunt of it, his meat never endured anything?

abhilegend
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
What's next? His silvery skin took the brunt of it, his meat never endured anything?
You can always say that. After all it was only a peaceful explosion. Non violent even.

abhilegend
Yo man, Kyle Rayner contains a big bang.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/93477/1874255-1399652_supermanv2173pg14_super.jpg

But man, that's not even close to Surfer taking a peaceful explosion, ain't it?

One Big Mob
Originally posted by abhilegend
Is that what we are calling it now? He made a new choice of taking the ring from Dawn and Never Queen let him go.

He also got stomped by Collector in the same issue.
There was nothing casual about it. The storm was draining him until Groot shorted it out with a wire (lol) and Surfer channeled it in the earth.
He flew in the past but yes it was impressive.
Most impressive thing he did. The heart looked different from user to user. Dawn saw it as a toy monkey.
Who was weakened due to using his life force to track Surfer.

That's just slapstick comedy.
That's not what happened. He blasted them away but there was no indication that they were koed or anything.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ns2XefQSiJY/WZRY_HBO5LI/AAAAAAAArJ0/6Joh2cOL3uYadhBbYiPInyxPoJ7WSib1ACLcBGAs/s1600/023_0015.jpg

He was struggling with Thing alone in that issue.

He fought the spirit of a planet and he did that.

He struggled with Thing, got stomped by Collector and was totally ineffectual against Fury with a Watcher power even with him going all out.

Looks like classic Surfer to me. Imagine my surprise laughing out loud

Because it wasn't possible for him to break the time loop without being full power. Surfer had to be powerful enough to create that possibility. Without his full power, the Never Queen was out of reach. She didn't do shit.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HNeWRj59fZo/VoSjeCUVhbI/AAAAAAAAOkQ/vTw8SLSXHwY/s1600-Ic42/RCO002.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Wncy6cbTP98/VoSjhAJQDWI/AAAAAAAAOkQ/9ZkqfpGXplI/s1600-Ic42/RCO013.jpg

"Create a new possibility, will it into being!"
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HXNdPSdw6KE/VoSjoUOLCZI/AAAAAAAAOkQ/1C75zYgstnw/s1600-Ic42/RCO039.jpg


You realize by saying he got stomped by Collector you are ignoring the feat right? This is the exact issue Leo has in this thread. That no matter how powerful DC heroes become, someone will come along to stomp them.
Besides, he had to distract them anyway (The girl gets her full power from a statue that Surfer left for Alicia that held a part of his power)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/4BJOuOHfWfg91HS3sEcxnbg7fHxw- QeGFAsxLA4hqfw5qJtJTKByjRP6BSh9JmQfcPSmuYF1LDVD=s1
600

So... the issue is he still did the feat. Collector had to blast him in the back.

Um yeah, it was pretty casual
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ UiwXPvnd_VxGMwbot1U79LB_tVZewtQUjpMR7KLXSV4wTYd66F
PTFv7VnDj_J0nO4pALaqw2H__f=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ Zra5uU4lLoDA1BxPox9yxxehJpHo009iPQQYmXuPxu6FiiDdEN
CMXJsXzAQ2LhhLDZvKJ1xjdd76=s1600

Then some parasite that drinks suns attaches itself to Surfer, but the fact remains that had the parasite not existed, he dealt with that storm pretty easily. Then he manipulates the storm again while getting drained to help defeat the being with help from Groot
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ ajgs5G8XcrV37m67hCWl34pMf96ig27rNfxbaHBq5mjJrlSwGI
A7J5IcuoJi_bFAomILVbId2y7j=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/UlNVaxlenea0HM4- VSvYq_6NIu3GdfW4IR8caJvMIuBuJHICH99wKpifKY2pfMfV6A
svMfrR1obs=s1600

You'll note I didn't say he beat the parasite easily. You'll note I only spoke of the storm. IE, nice lowball.


Didn't you just try to lowball Surfer losing to the Collector when he previously gave Howard the Duck enough power to seemingly hurt the Collector?
Anyway, he said he cannibalized his engines and drew on his life force. Which would imply he shortened his own life. It was not stated it weakened him, as we don't know how his powers work. However, a couple issues earlier, we have Surfer getting his life force drained by many parasites.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ eP1_ktxEDbuBEYZnCiF8UFaJdlb1a_HMHEOXZeuJiyEeEm_aSN
EMToWRa5tBQ3--llyy8qlI3As6=s1600

So like I said, it took years off his life, not power out of him. Unless Surfer was also weakened the rest of the series. Not that I care, but it's funny that this exists.



Oh right, it doesn't count because it was a funny comic. Remind me to bump Lobo threads.


I never said they were KO'ed. I said he overpowered them. Right after that he pulled off his machine feat.

And he also one punched Thing before when he was more serious. Anyway, he had created two rings at the time. As we saw before, one ring was the difference between being trapped in an infinite time loop and breaking through one. Either way, good feat for Ben.



The Watcher Fury happened though. No idea what relevance it has, but sure. I'm glad you were here to just spout a bunch of "low feats" because how dare I name Surfer feats. thumb up

One Big Mob
Some scans aren't working

Collector blast in the back
http://i68.tinypic.com/sgjrcz.jpg


Storm manipulation
http://i63.tinypic.com/wl97a8.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/2j5jhgy.jpg


http://i63.tinypic.com/2rnu1zo.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/2h6sxmg.jpg


surfer parasites scan
http://i66.tinypic.com/jfyk4n.jpg

abhilegend
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Imagine my surprise laughing out loud

Mine too.

Yes, he created a new possibility. It wasn't about full power, Surfer was already at full power. He just made a different choice when he took the ring from Dawn.

It was just a time loop where everyone was doing repeatedly and when Surfer changed his action it was broken. That's it. Surfer wasn't even aware that he was in a time loop. He was busy creating a space warp.

Collector got stomped by Howard and manhandled by unworthy Thor.

Even both combined had no effect on collector.

http://postimg.org/image/1ce3lh9bcb/



Seriously?

Oh you are talking about the storm. Yes, it was cool but not that noteworthy.

Parasites drinking suns isn't that hard to beat. Superman once defeated an entire planet that eats suns with just freeze breath.

But hey, you think that's a good feat for Surfer, go ahead.

Oh right.
That was just Howard with the power of the nexus.

And Surfer was back at full power by then.

Drawing from life force does not shorten your life span. It drains you. What kind of logic is that?

Seriously? Where did he took years of his life? Life force equals to age now?

Sure, you do that. Unless you think Flatman can take the same attack that flings Ego, that was meaningless.

Blasting someone away does not means overpowering someone.

Ben was disoriented that time.

You're seriously suggesting him creating two rings out of his body dropped him to Thing level power?

I'm pretty sure Thing fans are ecstatic.

I am not seeing any excuses for Surfer's excellent performance against Fury. Come on bran.

It's just that Surfer is always good on space cheese but fizzles out whenever it comes to beating characters.

And I'm also glad you were here to correct these low showings. How can Surfer failing to affect a Watcher not be a low showing or struggling against Thing. It's not like he was historically always doing that.

Oh wait...

abhilegend
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Some scans aren't working

Collector blast in the back
http://i68.tinypic.com/sgjrcz.jpg


Storm manipulation
http://i63.tinypic.com/wl97a8.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/2j5jhgy.jpg


http://i63.tinypic.com/2rnu1zo.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/2h6sxmg.jpg


surfer parasites scan
http://i66.tinypic.com/jfyk4n.jpg
I like how Collector is blasting Surfer in the back when Surfer started the fight with blasting him in the back and Surfer was just fighting him.

thumb up

One Big Mob
Originally posted by abhilegend
Mine too.

Yes, he created a new possibility. It wasn't about full power, Surfer was already at full power. He just made a different choice when he took the ring from Dawn.

It was just a time loop where everyone was doing repeatedly and when Surfer changed his action it was broken. That's it. Surfer wasn't even aware that he was in a time loop. He was busy creating a space warp.

And he created a new possibility because he now had the power to accomplish it.


http://i66.tinypic.com/2ivo1s0.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Lp8Ma4XA_QM/VoSjnbcRJwI/AAAAAAAAOkQ/LvMJBbnYUPs/s1600-Ic42/RCO036.jpg


Without additional power he could have never accomplished the feat since he went out every single other time. Add some more power, and suddenly he does it.

Never Queen even tells him he has to will it into being. It was all Surfer. You do not see Never Queen help him. Just because it exists in infinite possibilities, it doesn't mean it doesn't count when he did it himself.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HXNdPSdw6KE/VoSjoUOLCZI/AAAAAAAAOkQ/1C75zYgstnw/s1600-Ic42/RCO039.jpg


Surfer was creating the possibility and willing it into being.





Originally posted by abhilegend
Parasites drinking suns isn't that hard to beat. Superman once defeated an entire planet that eats suns with just freeze breath.

But hey, you think that's a good feat for Surfer, go ahead. No, maybe not, but the thing materialized on top of Surfer, and he still had enough energy to manipulate a planetary storm. Superman flew into the Sun Eaters brain when it wasn't fighting him.



Originally posted by abhilegend
Oh right.
That was just Howard with the power of the nexus.
http://i68.tinypic.com/124d0jo.jpg


Originally posted by abhilegend
Drawing from life force does not shorten your life span. It drains you. What kind of logic is that?

Seriously? Where did he took years of his life? Life force equals to age now?

https://imgur.com/a/pOH4o





Originally posted by abhilegend
Ben was disoriented that time.

You're seriously suggesting him creating two rings out of his body dropped him to Thing level power?

I'm pretty sure Thing fans are ecstatic. Ben was laying on the ground into the next comic.

No, I'm suggesting his power was lower, and he wasn't trying too hard.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I am not seeing any excuses for Surfer's excellent performance against Fury. Come on bran.

It's just that Surfer is always good on space cheese but fizzles out whenever it comes to beating characters.

And I'm also glad you were here to correct these low showings. How can Surfer failing to affect a Watcher not be a low showing or struggling against Thing. It's not like he was historically always doing that.

Oh wait... Why would I have to make up stuff? I never said he was perfect, I said he was doing decent things. I just decided to answer Darth's post as he did mine.
Next time I'll be sure to include his worst feats in that timeframe for no reason. I'm sure you enjoy when Carver does that. thumb up

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by One Big Mob


But anyway, we were told what would happen if Surfer ran into it anyway:
https://imgur.com/a/7f2fR


Jeez. I never noticed that. thumb up

Originally posted by One Big Mob
And he created a new possibility because he now had the power to accomplish it.


http://i66.tinypic.com/2ivo1s0.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Lp8Ma4XA_QM/VoSjnbcRJwI/AAAAAAAAOkQ/LvMJBbnYUPs/s1600-Ic42/RCO036.jpg


Without additional power he could have never accomplished the feat since he went out every single other time. Add some more power, and suddenly he does it.

Never Queen even tells him he has to will it into being. It was all Surfer. You do not see Never Queen help him. Just because it exists in infinite possibilities, it doesn't mean it doesn't count when he did it himself.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HXNdPSdw6KE/VoSjoUOLCZI/AAAAAAAAOkQ/1C75zYgstnw/s1600-Ic42/RCO039.jpg


Surfer was creating the possibility and willing it into being

Damn, that's pretty impressive. Surfer slowly racking up some STUPID feats.

We need to reopen the Thor vs. Surfer thread. For the first time in their history, I think Surfer would take the majority at the moment.

*SOBS*

Well, for two more months anyways.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by abhilegend
You can always say that. After all it was only a peaceful explosion. Non violent even.

What exactly is a peaceful explosion?

abhilegend
Originally posted by One Big Mob
And he created a new possibility because he now had the power to accomplish it.


http://i66.tinypic.com/2ivo1s0.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Lp8Ma4XA_QM/VoSjnbcRJwI/AAAAAAAAOkQ/LvMJBbnYUPs/s1600-Ic42/RCO036.jpg

Eh? You're twisting the whole scene. Surfer and Dawn were trapped in a place where there were no possibilities and no future.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hBXAbKb7avA/VUDizlq4G0I/AAAAAAALLlo/d1tVVlAex6U/s1600/p12_1%2Bcopy.jpg

That's why when Surfer took his ring from Dawn, he chose a new action and it created new pathways for them.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2M4m04xuKV8/VUDi-GsMcZI/AAAAAAALLog/zsvt5a2LzEM/s1600/p12_35.jpg

And where new pathways were created, Never Queen is present as she is the embodiment of the future.

This helped Surfer to create the space warp.

You're hilariously unable to read the scene. It wasn't about power. Surfer already had the power to create the space warp which is what he did in the end as well. He was living in the loop because he was afraid to take any new action and repeating the same thing again and again.

Yes, he created the space warp. That's what he did to transport the refugees.

It got nothing to do with power though.

And what does that has to do with power? He only created a space warp. The possibility was Surfer choosing a different action than before.

He brought down lightning to short circuit the parasite.

I'm talking about cannibal planet (who was devouring actual sun) rather than simple boasting from a random parasite with nothing to back it up.

Sun Eaters? Forget about that.

And? Making collector "nngh" is supposed to be such a big deal?

And Surfer was giving his life force too which is great enough for him to live for centuries.




And then out fought Surfer in that comic.

He was actually trying to save Earth and even apologized to Ben for doing it so quickly.

Nice excuse you got there.

You don't say.

Never change bran. Still twisting straight up scenes to suit your agenda.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Jeez. I never noticed that. thumb up


You never noticed Bran cropping scans? Here is what happens when they crash into big bang.

https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/37712292/Silver_Surfer_013-007.jpg.html
https://www.turboimagehost.com/p/37712297/Silver_Surfer_013-008.jpg.html

Nothing happened. They just crossed into previous universe.

Oh ye of little faith.

Fell to Brandon trickery again?

laughing out loud

abhilegend
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What exactly is a peaceful explosion?
Ask Celey. Apparently big bang is not a violent explosion.

Philosophía
Now I'm the one that can' quote people. Lmao, this forum.



You just said that we should use the scientific explanation of the big bang, since that's what Slott referenced:



...because you didn't know how the Big Bang is defined in scientific circles, which is exactly an expanse of space/time. You got tricked by the term explosion, and you went all cocky "haha, it's explosion brah, not expansion, what are you talking about?". Admit this, Branlet! When will you learn? etc. etc.

Now you're saying the exact reverse, and that we should ignore what science says, and go back to it being a 'fictional' big bang.

Fuc k you, Bran, the First of his kind. I don't have the patience for this games.

If we go purely by what Slott showed in fiction (hey, we're back there!), then Surfer was at the center of void expanding with potential matter/energy. To take it further, there are no laws of physics there, there is no such thing as space/time formed in the first place, kinetic energy, atoms, distance, velocity, nothing etc. It's a literal void, with no concept that applies in the normal Universe. There is no frame of reference to even prove it has anything to do with durability.He got engulfed by literally nothing.

I also advise you not to start talking about dark matter/energy based on what you've just googled in 5 minutes. I've read on this for days on end, and it's much more complicated than you think, and the properties of dark matter/energy are much more complicated than you think -- and if there's anything I don't want to do, it's a pseudo-seminar on it on this forum. When you read "space is expanding at lightspeed++ you don't understand that it doesn't work like an object hurled in normal space. Because the Universe is expanding in non-space. That's why the expansion could be faster than light, and not obey the laws of physics. Outside of the Universe there is nothing. And I don't mean empty space -- I mean there's not even space itself.

So you have two options here:
1). Surfer was explicitly at the center of an empty void expanding away from his direction, and which had only potential energy/matter
2). Surfer was at the center of something similar to our real world big bang, which was again, not an explosion, but space expanding around him.

None of them are a durability feat. It's why Surfer literally had no reaction, and there was zero emphasis on him tanking anything. It's just him standing as the Universe balloons around him.

abhilegend
Use quickquote function.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by abhilegend
Ask Celey. Apparently big bang is not a violent explosion.
https://media.giphy.com/media/9eLbjOcGOpmY8/giphy.gif

abhilegend
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/joker.gif

One Big Mob

"Id"
I somewhat favor where Leo is coming from.

But I am more bothered by how a few characters are being thrown around. Specifically Wally and Kyle. At least Kyle still retains a solid presence, where Wally appearances is treated as a cameo. sad

I get it. The return of Barry and Hal would equate to reducing the status quo of Wally and Kyle, given that only one can hold the mantle as the go to Flash/GL. But god phucking damn it. Do need to deconstruct a characters history just to make the other look better?

I cant be the only one bothered by this? Especially with the recent dumbness of the GL comic. Why would Kyle struggle to handle Hal's GL Ring? He had his trail by fire when he battled Oblivion for control of the energies of the Central Battery. He had another personal battle when was dealing with the conflicting energies of Ion and Starheart energies which he goes on to control just fin at the end of his Ion run. He goes on another personal battle in harassing and mastering the energies of the entire spectrum which later becomes the white ring, and harnessing emotional entities. And for phuck sakes some of these victories came with overcoming serious emotional burden from dealing with personal losses.

I just cant fanthom the idea of Kyle struggling to handle Hal's ring when he has experience handling the energies and forces far greater the ring. At least not without ignoring all his accomplishments. So then what? I just take a piss on the fandom built by his stories.

Lets just call it for what it is. Big of Comic companies taking a piss at the lore built upon years of reading to drive up a poorly written plot. Marvel is doing it to Thor with induction of Jane. DC is doing the same Kyle.

/end rant

Philosophía

Philosophía
Everything gets pulled apart at inflation. Planets, matter etc.

The distance increases between objects.

If you and I stand face to face, and the inflation starts, the distance between us would increase to millions of lightyears in moments.

It's not a durability feat, because we're not experiencing inertia - space ITSELF is moving.

https://profmattstrassler.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/bigbangisexpansion.png?w=1024&h=588


Bran, read that shit, what the ****.




Yes, that's how this works. You don't get hit with anything, space itself is expanding around you. Right NOW the Universe is still expanding. Not at the initial rate, but it's a continuous process. Do you think that's a feat for you?

I'm not here to "win", so I'm not "hoping" to prove you wrong.

It's just that in this case, I studied physics, so the moment we start talking about it, I have more knowledge.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by abhilegend
Eh? You're twisting the whole scene. Surfer and Dawn were trapped in a place where there were no possibilities and no future.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hBXAbKb7avA/VUDizlq4G0I/AAAAAAALLlo/d1tVVlAex6U/s1600/p12_1%2Bcopy.jpg

That's why when Surfer took his ring from Dawn, he chose a new action and it created new pathways for them.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2M4m04xuKV8/VUDi-GsMcZI/AAAAAAALLog/zsvt5a2LzEM/s1600/p12_35.jpg

And where new pathways were created, Never Queen is present as she is the embodiment of the future.

This helped Surfer to create the space warp.

You're hilariously unable to read the scene. It wasn't about power. Surfer already had the power to create the space warp which is what he did in the end as well. He was living in the loop because he was afraid to take any new action and repeating the same thing again and again.

Yes, he created the space warp. That's what he did to transport the refugees.

It got nothing to do with power though.

And what does that has to do with power? He only created a space warp. The possibility was Surfer choosing a different action than before.

He brought down lightning to short circuit the parasite.

I'm talking about cannibal planet (who was devouring actual sun) rather than simple boasting from a random parasite with nothing to back it up.

Sun Eaters? Forget about that.

And? Making collector "nngh" is supposed to be such a big deal?

And Surfer was giving his life force too which is great enough for him to live for centuries.




And then out fought Surfer in that comic.

He was actually trying to save Earth and even apologized to Ben for doing it so quickly.

Nice excuse you got there.

You don't say.

Never change bran. Still twisting straight up scenes to suit your agenda.


It was entirely about power. Surfer did not have the power to break through the time loop and as such was trapped forever. There were no possibilities because Surfer did not have the power to break the loop.
It would be the same if Surfer were trapped in an unbreakable box without matter manip. He has no possibilities. Someone comes along and gives him matter manip and suddenly it opens up a possibility to the Never Queen. It doesn't mean she's helping him, it means the possibility exists for him to now accomplish it. And she outright says she's not helping him when she tells Surfer to will it into being.

It's right in the scene. Hell Surfer admits he couldn't even spare one atom of his being. Does this not sound like he needs all the power he can get?

"Create a new possibility! Will it into being!"

Surfer was creating that possibility while he was doing the feat. Before hand she just said they were revealed when he took the ring. Which had he not used his full self, he likely would have wounded up right back at the start. But he was whole and he used enough energy to break through.



But, explain what the ring did then besides creating a new possibility. Because Surfer sure seemed to think he'd need every part of him to do it.
How did he create a new possibility? A new choice? So what does this choice entail? What difference could this choice possibly make?




Cannibal Planet, even better. Anyway, the point is that the parasite materialized on top of Surfer already draining him. It claimed it drank suns. Not potentially, claimed.
To have an accurate comparison, you'd think you would have showed me Cannibal Planet trying to drain Superman and Superman overcoming and beating it in a battle. Not that I care, but it was a nice non sequitur nonetheless.


No, I'm just saying Surfer gave Howard enough power to Silver up and hurt Collector before hand. Hell, Howard also had an entire issue where he was using the power as well.



And that's my point. In that series Slott used life force as merely how long you live. Otherwise we'd have to assume Surfer got depowered the rest of the series.

"Outfought"
And he kept turning his back on Ben and trying to talk to the people to try and convince them to stop following Shalla.



People in glass houses

One Big Mob

Philosophía
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Since you're so keen on Matt, I figured I'd use what he described as the explosion big bang, like what the comic showed.

There had to be velocity and likely other things to follow the comic big bang. It wasn't an explosion of nothing. Even your own link defines it as pressure and velocity. Holy...SHIT.

Bran, you don't follow.

The quote you just posted is explicitly in contrast to the big bang/universe expansion, which is nothing like an explosion.

You read the wrong paragraphs. The pargraph you read is LITERALLY what the Big Bang is not.

How could you possibly not acknowledge here that you read it wrong?

This is literally what it says, right below the figure associated with the text you quoted:

"Fig. 1: What the Big Bang was not: An explosion of a seed into a pre-existing space. The explosion is created by a process that generates tremendous heat and pressure inside the seed, which rushes outward as a ball of hot material exploding into the pre-existing space. The Big Bang is nothing like this."

What the f*ck are you doing?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
But that's the problem, if Surfer is literally getting all of space dropped on him in an instant without getting dragged along it...
His models are if we assume things existed within the expanding state, and as such they'd never bump into each other. It doesn't account for something this space gets dropped onto.

I understand in his room diagram. The thing I'm having an issue with is what would happen if you were point blank to the inflation. To everything rushing out on you, and you NOT getting tossed out with it. How is this not durability? You are resisting incredible forces.


Well no, when you include a link that outright says what happened Dan Slotts Silver Surfer was not expansion, I don't think you did want to win. You're arguing something not pertaining to the feat at all, and instead something you want to argue to try and distract my attention away. Which is fine, I'm always up to learn something, but it's not what happened. Dan did pretty much everything Matt hates.

Resisting what, Bran? The void is literally spreading out and engulfing Surfer in 360 degrees. Surfer didn't resist anything, he WANTED to be inside the newly formed Universe.

The Silver Surfer comic:
- explicitly says that there's a void expanding
- explicitly says that the void is comprised of potential matter and energy, that is only formed AFTER the inflation

In short, Surfer was inside an expanding nothingness, in which the physical Universe is eventually formed.

There's nothing for him to resist, since there's literally a Void, devoid of anything. He didn't even want to resist it. There is no ACTUAL matter/energy, no laws of physics, no atoms, no kinetic energy for him to resist in the first place.

carver9
Mod ruling is needed.

Digi
@Phil's reply to feat Re: Gl/Surfer feats:

You make some excellent points, but please don't suppose I'm unfamiliar with GL feats. I'm sketchy post-FP, but followed them for many years and have a good working knowledge of their capabilities.

Your comments on Kyle suggest that - like Surfer and others in that power stratosphere - he's absolutely top level. Whether or not his feats surpass Surfer's is perhaps a bit hard to determine, but both his power and versatility feats are in the same realm imo. This isn't a vs. fight, and my point was always that each of these people have numerous "deus ex" style feats that defy the normal logic of the tier. Kyle may edge out Surfer due to recent showings, but to imagine the gap is gigantic is - I think - nearsighted.

Your post also name drops a couple other GLs. Is it Surfer vs. the Corps? Or each individual lantern? Don't move the goalposts. Proving that one of the most established and powerful GLs ever is above Surfer (Kyle, again ignoring Hal) is quite a different matter from saying rookie GLs or every GL, etc.

Originally posted by carver9
Mod ruling is needed.

Surfer wins, and Spider-Man v. FL is valid.

I HAVE SPOKEN.

fdog

Philosophía
Originally posted by Digi
@Phil's reply to feat Re: Gl/Surfer feats:

You make some excellent points, but please don't suppose I'm unfamiliar with GL feats. I'm sketchy post-FP, but followed them for many years and have a good working knowledge of their capabilities.

Your comments on Kyle suggest that - like Surfer and others in that power stratosphere - he's absolutely top level. Whether or not his feats surpass Surfer's is perhaps a bit hard to determine, but both his power and versatility feats are in the same realm imo. This isn't a vs. fight, and my point was always that each of these people have numerous "deus ex" style feats that defy the normal logic of the tier. Kyle may edge out Surfer due to recent showings, but to imagine the gap is gigantic is - I think - nearsighted.

Your post also name drops a couple other GLs. Is it Surfer vs. the Corps? Or each individual lantern? Don't move the goalposts. Proving that one of the most established and powerful GLs ever is above Surfer (Kyle, again ignoring Hal) is quite a different matter from saying rookie GLs or every GL, etc. I know you're familiar with many older GL feats, which is why I'm baffled as to why you hold him at the top of the food chain. It's, imo, remnants of an era when there was nobody around to contest it and, even IF we say that they were comparably the same, the last decade of DC has straight up skyrocketed the likes of Hal by comparison.

The reason I posted different characters is that I wanted to go through the entire spectrum of GLs - noobs to veterans - to show that Surfer's highest feats are mid-to-high level feats for most GLs. Most of what I posted was even during the era when Kyle was a noob , or with CURRENT noob GLs such as Jessica . You don't need to be Hal to do them.
What you consider high shit, is something relatively common in GL showings. They make him look mundane. You might notice that I didn't ask you to match GL feats.

Hal is explicitly, overwhelmingly, much, MUCH more powerful than GLs, to the point that it's ridiculous. His willpower has been compared to the central power battery , if you can imagine that. In fact, he is significantly above Kyle himself, as pointed out just this month, which has been obvious for the better part of the decade.

So we have Surfer being a mid-high GL in terms of feats, and Hal overwhelmingly above people who are comparable to SS. And then we have somebody like Zod, who comes and treats Hal like a kid who he wants to steal the lunch from.

So you might understand Leo's point of view that when Surfer, what is considered the cream of the crop in Marvel, is at best a mid-guy in DC, it shows that the Universes have shifted towards DC being on average more powerful.

abhilegend
Originally posted by One Big Mob
It was entirely about power. Surfer did not have the power to break through the time loop and as such was trapped forever. There were no possibilities because Surfer did not have the power to break the loop.
Yeah, repeating yourself isn't going to prove anything.

I just showed you what's what in that comic. But do continue to show us how it was all about power and how Surfer gained power from his ring which was just a part of his body and no power loss was ever stated in giving the ring to Dawn.

Yes, and he only creates a space warp and wasn't even aware that there was any time loop to begin with.

Which he was already doing but never succeeded because he was repeating the same actions over and over.

Do you even know what was going on in the comic or just thought that breaking an infinite time loop sounded better?



The ring wasn't shown to be a power loss for Surfer. Hell he would've to absorb his board too if that was the idea that it was somehow weakening him.

You're literally not seeing what was going on in the comic.

facepalm

Surfer did only what he was doing from the start. He was creating a space warp but as it was set, he was repeating it again and again. When he took the ring, the possibility was there again and he successfully made it out of the loop.

It was due to his actions, not some random power loss by the ring.

It was a different set of action than predefined in the loop, it created a new set of probabilities which later showed that Surfer could successfully create a space warp.

How does a space warp even breaks a time loop anyway?

Yeah, claiming is believing last I checked.

Drinking suns doesn't means draining them completely BTW.

So let me guess, you take a random parasite claiming it drinks suns and that's somehow absolute truth. Oh and Cannibal planet devouring sun isn't the same or Superman who is himself a solar battery beating it from inside means that the planet didn't fight back.

Never change Brandon.

And? Should we put Howard on herald level too because it manages to hurt Collector.

*Gasp*

He powered down and let the parasites drain his zenn lavian life force drain. It has nothing to do with his power cosmic.

But eh, you can always say that Warrior Zero somehow got his years drained because that's what powers engines.

Straight up making things now, eh?

Yes, outfought. Ben was able to save Alicia when Surfer was face down.

But duh, Surfer was only fighting lightly because he was in no hurry to save earth and who cares if he said he had to end the fight quickly.

Exactly Brandon.

abhilegend

One Big Mob

One Big Mob

One Big Mob
Originally posted by abhilegend
Even if we want to take old scans, GLs leave Surfer in dust.

Tom Kalmaku recreates Oa casually when he got the GL ring for the first time from GL legacy.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11133/111332122/6135547-1576345812-image.jpg
Holy shit they drew him really Asian laughing out loud

celeyhyga17
Imagine Superman had stayed for this party?
Best feat evaaaa!!

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/8/80518/1472324-imperiexuni2.jpg

Philosophía
That's what I thought, too.

Look, I'm bored already. You're obviously not going to admit you were wrong here overall, because you think you're arguing with somebody else, so you can't give ground. I mean, it's ok to admit this isn't a durability feat, even if your initial position was that it is. I'm willing to discuss his other feats, since those really ARE discussable(?). But this is so obviously not a tanking feat, that it's crazy we're having this discussion.

The only reason we got into the 'explosion' vs 'expansion' debate is because you said that the big bang is an explosion, not an expansion, and based it on the real-world scientific definition Slott explicitly referenced, which you wrongfully assumed meant actual explosion. I showed you that you were wrong, you admitted it was wrong, and when you realized that train of thought accidentally proved my point that it's an expansion, you started to do a complete 180 and argue the reverse, that Dan Slott wasn't actually basing it on science. You literally shot yourself in the foot by showing it's an expansion, and then you tried to cover the hole with bullshit, by showing disagreement between Slot and science, when your WHOLE ARGUMENT was that Slott based it on science in order to prove that it was an "explosion".

It's a ***** move. But I would have let it slide.

Then you showed me you can't read.

You said, and I quote:

...and you posted a quote that is, literally, him using an example of what the Big Bang IS NOT. There's actual illustrations showing the difference. There are actual EXPLANATIONS to the illustrations that say, in no uncertain terms:
the Big Bang is nothing like this.

Here was another point where you should have admitted you misread it, and admit you were wrong, then move on.

We switch on back to fiction, when you realized that train of arguments led to proving my point.

I point out that the comic, in specific terms, it shows the big-bang as a void expanding. That it only has potential matter/energy, but is otherwise completely empty. That there's nothing for Surfer to be hit with, resist, or tank. That there was no actual, physical energy/matter, laws of physics, atoms or anything to get hit with. That it's just empty space around him, in which he explicitly stands, until matter/energy and Eternity starts to form.

We explicitly see Surfer explicitly saying that he is standing in an unending void:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t/37739608_Silver_Surfer_014-003.jpg

"I found myself alone in an unending void"

We see Surfer explicitly alone in the void right after,when he shoots off Dawn's energy:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t/37739606_Silver_Surfer_014-002.jpg

The story reveals EXPLICITLY that was the very FIRST energy in the Universe:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t/37739610_Silver_Surfer_014-018.jpg

Jesus Christ man.

You're arguing that Surfer's reaction at the big bang amounting to nothing by being hit by the void expanding into nothing, is somehow something, because you don't care.

I mean, can you even see my position on how absurd it is that you're even arguing this as a durability feat? When the feat explicitly shows a literal void expanding from the box to fill up non-existent space/time? When it's stated that there's no matter/energy and only potential one that will form? When it's literally stated that there's a Void, right after the big bang expansion, with Surfer literally standing there alone? With it being explicitly stated that Surfer's blast is the first thing in the Universe?

This isn't even me making an interpretation, it's right there on the page. The box explicitly only has potential energy/matter. Box is split. Void is released and surrounds Surfer. Matter/energy/Eternity then starts to form.

I think that you see, at this point, that you're wrong, but you're just arguing for the sake of it.

I feel like when I argued with abhi in another thread. The 'not giving an inch' attitude I really dislike, more than anything on this forum.

I...can't spend any more time on this. Sorry. It's so obvious, that I feel like I'm wasting my time.

leonidas
i've...lost track of this argument.

phil, are you suggesting that if you stood next to a big bang it would NOT be a durability feat...? ie--anyone could withstand a true universal genesis event? or is it just THIS depiction of a big bang in particular?

maybe i'll try and read the stuff over the weekend.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
i've...lost track of this argument.

phil, are you suggesting that if you stood next to a big bang it would NOT be a durability feat...? ie--anyone could withstand a true universal genesis event? or is it just THIS depiction of a big bang in particular?

maybe i'll try and read the stuff over the weekend. I'll write to you on fb if you don't want to read the discussion, since I'm tired of posting, lol.

leonidas
thumb up

TheHulkster

One Big Mob

abhilegend
Now I'm unable to quote Brandon too.


Already explained Brandon. Don't make me spoonfeed that to you again. Once was already enough.

That's what Slott wrote. Whine to him if you want.

But tell me again how creating a space warp breaks a time loop which Surfer wasn't even aware about?

And you thought "Ooh, this is totally gotta do with power".

Right Brandon.
But it makes sense for a ring which never Depowered Surfer to somehow make him so much more powerful, eh?

I already explained it to you. It was all about taking a different action.

But start first with how a space warp breaks a time loop.

Are you sure about that?

It was eating the sun but Superman who is a solar battery didn't got drained? Guess who has a better energy draining resistance than Surfer?

No, it draining Surfer is a fact. It draining suns isn't.

I just gave you a better feat from Superman randomly than your special feat from Surfer.

It doesn't means shit if it's not shown. Characters say stupid shit all the time.

But hey, it totally saves Surfer from getting drained like a *****. Again.
Making Collector go "nngh" is such a big feat.

Surfer is so powerful, isn't he? He must've defeated Collector when he could just share his power and hurt collector, right?

Oh wait..
But you yourself said it's not specified how his powers work. So how was it certainly?

And Warrior Zero was only something when he was channeling the gravity of a planet and then he overpowered Surfer.

Here he wasn't. But guess Surfer is super duper powerful for oneshotting Warrior Zero.

And Surfer was on the ground, eating dirt.

It shows Ben was disoriented the first time.

But hey, Surfer saying he wants to stop the fight quickly obviously means he wasn't trying to fight Ben.

Obviously.

abhilegend

TheHulkster

carver9
Originally posted by abhilegend
ermm
He powered the planet. He did not stop the planet from crumbling apart while it was already crumbling.

And yes, he only repaired the crust.

This doesn't make one bit of sense. You're trying too hard to lowball.

celeyhyga17
As per Marvel and as it pertains to Galactus's origin stories, the Big Bang event seems to have been quite the prodigious "explosion".

https://imgur.com/OF6WZHF.jpg

https://imgur.com/osyAJvd.jpg

abhilegend

abhilegend
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
As per Marvel and as it pertains to Galactus's origin stories, the Big Bang event seems to have been quite the prodigious "explosion".

https://imgur.com/OF6WZHF.jpg

https://imgur.com/osyAJvd.jpg
Nobody told Slott.

celeyhyga17
Your opinion here doesn't matter. You claimed Surfer hid inside the ship ffs.
erm

abhilegend
ermm

Better than he tanked partial big bang because why not.

celeyhyga17
Wutever helps you sleep better at night Mr. Subspace Routes.

abhilegend
Right backatcha Mr Tar speedster.

celeyhyga17
Lines need a little work.

abhilegend
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Lines need a little work.
This isn't pick up competition.

Baziemarc123
I don't think Surfer has any feats to suggest he'd even affect Superman in combat besides his hax. He's too strong, let's not forget he had the upper advantage against Darkseid

dmills
Its a thing that's prevalent in comics. Even upstart indy pubs are doing it. Recently I read an indy book where at the very beginning of the book one of the heroes creates a giant death ball composed of something like the equivalent of 500 solar masses or some such. He tosses it at the main antagonist and the guy tanks it. A ridiculous feat by any standard right? I thought to myself welp, they're establishing this pace at the beginning of the book now but this being comics, I'm almost certain that this dude will get knocked out by a punch at some point in the story lol.

I think we have an obsession to make sense of these things to make it work in venues like this, but we forget that the companies themselves don't have battle boards in mind when they write this shyt. At least that's my take on it.

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