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Who wins?

1. Living Muur
2. Celeste Morne Muur

1. Cade.
2. No way of knowing especially by Cade's prime. But it should be a close fight.

I mean, Celeste-Muur just didn't really do anything.

Muur.

Re-Reading that fight, Cade literally has nothing On Reborn Krayt. nothing suggests he is even Muur level.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Re-Reading that fight, Cade literally has nothing On Reborn Krayt. nothing suggests he is even Muur level. Implying Muur would do any better, lol.

Originally posted by ILS
Implying Muur would do any better, lol.

He would, because we have seen more from him in the way of opponents.

Muur>Darth Krayt was shown, Reborn krayt grows in power. So we know he is stronger than he was before. How much stronger, if stronger than Murr, we do not know.

Cade however, was below Darth Krayt, he did grow, but we do not know, how much he had comparatively to Darth Krayt. Unless stated otherwise.

Logically Murr has that high scaling of feats, by being confirmed>Darth Krayt.

If Muur blasting a Krayt who has a lightsaber protruding from his chest shows superiority, then you might as well cut the foreplay and argue Cade > Reborn Krayt.

What we do know is that Celeste Morne combining her power with both Muur's spirit and his talisman, was not in any way shown to be superior to a Krayt who was:

-Due to receive a large power up

-At the very peak of his body-ravaging illness that had plagued him for over a century, which is harder to heal than the most lethal poisons, rakghouls infections or lightsaber wounds

-Had just expended a huge amount of energy frying about ten rakghouls to death, bearing in mind that seven years prior Krayt felt weak after a brief fight with four Imperial Knights.

In fact, Muur's powers of essence transfer and mind domination seemed to be totally ineffective against both Celeste (over the course of a century, I might add) and Cade, who laughed Muur off on two occasions. This pretty heavily indicates that at best, he might share parity with them, but realistically, he's inferior to them and thus has to go to great lengths to manipulate them and weaken their resolve before he can even attempt to take them over.

I'll briefly add that while Cade laughed at Muur's attempts to weaken his resolve, prime Cade's mind was being "infected" and "eaten" by Krayt's unbound spirit, to such an extent he thought it wise to fly into the sun with Krayt's corpse.

Nah, I'm refering more to this quote:





I know the second one says might, but the one above it backs the claim.

It confirms, Muur's superiority to Darth Krayt at the time.

So? when he trashed Cade, he was in a similar state, with his illness.

Frying 10 non force sensitive rakghouls to death lmao, that is some nitpicking, I suppose Revan was drained from when he smashed open those durasteel doors before confronting vitiate.

It takes a bit to dominate the mind of people, even Novel vitiate, had to preform some type of ritual, to do such with imperial guardsmen. It is just a clear indication of their willpower. Unless you want to argue Revan>=Vitiate via him and the dread masters unabling to dominate him.

So Reborn krayt>Muur, I do support this. Doesn't take away from anything.

Muur destroys Cade like he destroyed Krayt.

Yeah, Celeste and Muur possessed powers, likely the ability to heal Krayt and summon rakghouls from the dead, which "outshone" them, whatever that means. Krayt was definitely outshone at the time, but not due to a deficiency in power, because as we noted, Krayt was backstabbed. The comic solicitation hyping that Celeste-Muur might be > Krayt is simply that - hype. But what isn't hype is this:

https://i.imgur.com/wzYaVal.jpg

This is on the same page as your own Insider quote, btw, so I'm not sure how you can possibly reconcile that Muur is > Krayt, when Krayt's TK and lightning skills "far outstrip any Sith of his era."

Krayt trashed Cade after being fully healed and experiencing a power increase. When he was vong-afflicted him and Cade had a long, hard fight.

Dude, Krayt is having his insides constantly torn up and fed upon by vong organisms, and his flagging stamina is constantly brought up. You ignoring that very important fact does not serve your case. Like I said before, even killing four Imperial Knights left Krayt out of stamina, the circumstances in Vector are far worse due to his illness progressing and him expending even more energy.

Essence Transfer is a battle which is based on willpower as well as Force power, which is stated repeatedly during the Vector arc and in other material. Zannah fighting off Bane's essence transfer was proof she was fit to succeed him. The battle of wills between Wyyrlok and Andeddu was another representation of this. So again, the fact that Muur couldn't undermine the willpower of Celeste Morne despite sharing a mind with her for over a century is extremely telling.

Yeah, I agree with ILS. Cade wins, especially round 1.

Not sure that either gets a decisive edge over the other.

ILS makes some good points. But i'm still not convinced Cade has this based of them. It's all very convincing to a degree, but there are some minor details that have a much greater impact unless overlooked.

The first is that Spirit Muur /= Living Muur. His ability to affect the living realm with his powers in this state is hindered, which includes the ability to possess/dominate the minds of others. So using spirit!Murr's limitations as a point of reference to cap living Murr's powers, doesn't work. When the difference may well be some order of magnitude. And I'm not talking about a Nick Gillard's exaggerated order of magnitude, I'm talking about going from crushing AT AT's to barely being able catch R2 D2's attention with Telekinesis. Which serves a massive contention to some of the points made.



Which suffers form the rebuttal above with regards to Muur's status as a spirit. What's more, the inability to possess either of these two with essence transfer doesn't reliably indicate inferiority to Cade or Celeste. Ironically, the example provided relating to Zannah and Bane, demonstrates the opposite.



Zannah may have been fit to succeed him. But without the soil of Ambria and expertise in a field of abilties that Bane was shy in (sorcery) her powers were not yet up to scratch with Bane's own - he was winning the fight prior to these circumstances. This indicates that possessing someones mind and body requires much greater than a paltry degree of superiority to the victim. And of course, Bane is able to draw from the full power his corporeal body offers him (the ritual destroyed his body completely). Muur doesn't have such an advantage and probably suffers because of it.



I'm not contesting that Krayt is more powerful than his Vong iteration, but even in all the splendour his reborn body offers him, there was no trashing. In fact, one can argue that Krayt failed to dominate Cade in conventional aspects of the force (such as Telekinesis and mind powers) but managed to exploit a lapse in defence with Dark Transfer. Even after weakening Cade to a great extent with said power, he was still unable to possess him. One could even say that that his inability to undermine Cade's will despite having the advantage, is rather telling.



The tyranny of the Star Wars accolade strikes again. A trump card to most. But let's give the quote a simple degree of analysis to demonstrate why it may not incapsulate Muur. Read - Krayt is more powerful than any sith of his era. Think about why Muur may technically avoid inclusion as a sith of a completely different era. And after that we still have the quote claiming Murr had powers that outshone his. You claim that may be referring to non combative abilties such as healing, but if Muur is his superior in the field Krayt dedicated much of his life to studying, than it may suggest he's better in others.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Yeah, I agree with ILS. Cade wins, especially round 1.

Also, I seriously doubt this text is referring to healing powers or summoning rackgouls(spelling), but rather the bolded.



Those of you that have a rigid flexibility towards accolades should have no trouble bowing before the quote above, which clearly has Muur > Cade.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Not sure that either gets a decisive edge over the other.

ILS makes some good points. But i'm still not convinced Cade has this based of them. It's all very convincing to a degree, but there are some minor details that have a much greater impact unless overlooked.I'll do my best to reconcile these issues, Jman.

Fully agreed, which is why it's wonderful that he can directly channel his power through Celeste's body, in addition to her own power. It's like 2 for the price of 1.

Honestly, your point regarding Bane using his body as fuel for the ritual was overlooked on my end. Fair point. However I do still have another point of contention here.

The core point being, though, that you're saying Muur + his amulet, is more powerful than Muur's spirit + his amulet + an already considerably powerful Force user such as Celeste Morne. I don't see much proof for this, one way or another, but I figure a spirit + a living Force user probably beats out just one Force user, unless you can demonstrate that Muur in his own body is superior.

That clearly isn't the level of power Muur offers here, though.

Bane also noted that the only way to counter sorcery is through sheer willpower, so while there are clear stylistic differences between the two which lend each advantages in different ways (Bane with melee combat, Zannah with sorcery), suggesting Bane is more powerful than her overall seems wrong. Not that this is germane to the discussion any more.

However, what I would say indicates inferiority, or at least parity, is that Muur had a century to spend sharing a mind with Celeste Morne. Over 100 years to weaken her resolve, attack her mind, tempt her, undermine her in every way possible.

In stark contrast, Muur was able to tempt Shado Vao with telepathy to such an extent Shado left his room in the middle of the night to come and see the amulet, after seeing a vision of him trying it on for size. Cade laughed off Muur's influence even when wearing the talisman.

Even more telling, immediately after Krayt died, without needing to be attached to Cade with a talisman or being tethered to any power source, he entered his mind unwillingly, taunting him, "infecting" and "eating" his mind, leaving Cade so unsure of his control over his own body that he opted to fly himself and Krayt's corpse into the sun.

Not only does that show laughable superiority to Muur on Krayt's part, but it shows that Muur is clearly in Celeste's relative power range if he failed to accomplish half as much over the course of 100 years.
It requires one to battle the opponent on the level of mind/essence/consciousness, all of which are intertwined and mostly indistinguishable. From there, the possessor tries to obliterate the identity or otherwise mind of the defender, and the defender simply shields their own mind and tries to cast their attacker into the void. It's a simple, honest battle for superiority from what I can tell. You will recall that the spirit of Andeddu was obliterated in a similar battle of wills on the telepathic plane versus Wyyrlok.

I hope you realise I was simply using hasch's own terminology for the sake of brevity. I wouldn't quite describe the duel that way either, however...

Well no, he lifted Cade off of his feet immediately and threw him into a wall, and then seemingly continued to manipulate him after. If it was meant to be a hard fight, it'd have been portrayed similarly to his first fight with Cade, his lengthy fight with Wyyrlok, or many of the other long, arduous fights depicted in Legacy. Instead, Krayt is shown fighting him for less than a page and a half. And a "momentary lapse in defence" is something Cade failed to exploit in their first fight, despite understanding thoroughly how exposed Krayt's condition was to Dark Transfer. Cade couldn't lay a glove on him then, and he appears far less able to the second time around.

He had a far better time of it than Muur anyway. Cade seems to be convinced Krayt will take him over, because he is "eating" and "infecting" his mind - which is part of the identity being destroyed, as we discussed earlier - hence why he wants to fly both of them into the sun.

In stark contrast, Muur fails to provide a similar level of threat to Celeste's mind over the course of a hundred years, or Cade while he's wearing his spirit as an accessory and sharing a mind with him.

Indeed, it's nice to have such weapons in your backpocket.

Krayt's era is the Legacy era, which is written on the first page of any Legacy comic, and Muur exists during this era. So yes, this incapsulates Muur insofar as he appeared in the Legacy comics.

Pretty ridiculous supposition overall. The only ways in which Muur outshone Krayt and Cade were in his ability to heal Krayt, his ability to summon rakghouls, and when he "outshone" a Krayt who had just been stabbed in the chest.

Your logic clearly doesn't make sense, because Krayt learns how to heal himself during the fight. As soon as Muur starts healing him he "understands," which is precisely why he defies death shortly after. Yet, his cognisance of this new healing technique does not elevate his power in of itself, so why you think it'd elevate Muur over him is beyond me.

Your two options are as follows:

1. The "powers" Muur possesses which outshine them are those Krayt and Cade are lacking or less capable in, e.g healing and summoning.

2. Muur "outshone" Krayt by blasting him off the edge, and in the process he very much put on a more grand display than Cade, which would qualify as "outshining" him without strictly needing to be superior.

I much prefer to simply look at what is happening in the material and draw my conclusions from that, but if you're going to try and force the most preferable definition of your own cherry picked quote, I am going to do the same with mine, only that mine is pretty clear cut.

Krayt "far outstripping" any other Sith of his time with regards to TK and lightning can only be the result of his superiority as a Force practitioner. Unless you have an alternative hypothesis for why he'd be simultaneously weaker than Muur but far better than him with regards to fundamental combat powers.

Krayt himself is not of the Legacy era if we want to go into forced semantics here. Another self defeating argument.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Krayt himself is not of the Legacy era if we want to go into forced semantics here. Another self defeating argument. No need to go into such semantics when we have a very clear definition of which era Krayt and Muur exist in during the fight.

https://imgur.com/UKKTs0m

The quote directly states that Muur "possessed powers that outshone them both" in regards to Krayt and Cade. Furthermore he's obviously exempt from ILS's quote since he's not of the Legacy era, as well as the fight itself clearly demonstrating that Krayt does not "far outstrip" him in anything.

Muur takes this fairly easily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The quote directly states that Muur "possessed powers that outshone them both" in regards to Krayt and Cade.He did. He was the only one in possession of healing powers that Krayt coveted, and he outshone both Krayt and Cade when he blasted a lightsaber-impaled Krayt.

Considering he exists during the Legacy era, sounds kind of silly.

Not really. Krayt proves a clear superior to Celeste on her own, and the only times Krayt battles Muur and Celeste proper are so brief we cannot conclude anything substantial. Moreover, it was not only Muur fighting, but Muur and Celeste's joined power versus Krayt.

Lol.

Originally posted by ILS
No need to go into such semantics when we have a very clear definition of which era Krayt and Muur exist in during the fight.

https://imgur.com/UKKTs0m

What I was saying was that Krayt was present during the empire era as well so you know, the idea that because Muur was born millennia ago somehow exempts him from the quote is clearly BS when Krayt himself is a person who wasn't born in the Legacy time.

So, it is practically a self defeating argument.

I'll get to the other points later, as for Murr merely "existing during Krayt's era" that does not mean that quote incapsulates him.

The quote says that Krayt possessed TK and Lightning that outstripped sith of his era. If it said he has powers greater than any sith during his time or in his era. It might incapsulate Muur. But as Muur establishes himself as a sith of a completely different time, he technically avoids inclusion to the quote.

For example the title King George of England, doesn't change because he visited Spain for a couple of months. The same applies to Muur.






He is not technically born during that time, but it is the period of time where he establishes most of his infamy and power. Which is why, Darth Krayt of the Legacy Era works. The same can not be said for Muur who established himself during the time of the exiles. And only exists as a spirit bound to a tallisman, during the Legacy era.

Not that I would even go into it, because obviously it is a "reaching for the sky" kind of argument.

Originally posted by ILS
He did. He was the only one in possession of healing powers that Krayt coveted, and he outshone both Krayt and Cade when he blasted a lightsaber-impaled Krayt.

Considering he exists during the Legacy era, sounds kind of silly.

Not really. Krayt proves a clear superior to Celeste on her own, and the only times Krayt battles Muur and Celeste proper are so brief we cannot conclude anything substantial. Moreover, it was not only Muur fighting, but Muur and Celeste's joined power versus Krayt.

Lol.

I already read your arguments, I just don't think they have any merit. No need to repost them. JMANGO's interpretation is correct, you're just trying to cheese your way out of the quote and Muur is from the Exile's era, not Krayt's.

Like JMANGO said, Muur himself is constantly pointing out that he's not from Krayts era.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Not that I would even go into it, because obviously it is a "reaching for the sky" kind of argument.

That using a quote saying Krayt is more powerful than sith of his own Era, makes him better than Muur, a Sith of a completely different era?

I agree.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
What I was saying was that Krayt was present during the empire era as well so you know, the idea that because Muur was born millennia ago somehow exempts him from the quote is clearly BS when Krayt himself is a person who wasn't born in the Legacy time.

So, it is practically a self defeating argument. A keen observation, one I'm not seeing a way to wriggle out of.
Originally posted by JMANGO
I'll get to the other points later, as for Murr merely "existing during Krayt's era" that does not mean that quote incapsulates him.

The quote says that Krayt possessed TK and Lightning that outstripped sith of his era. If it said he has powers greater than any sith during his time or in his era. It might incapsulate Muur. But as Muur establishes himself as a sith of a completely different time, he technically avoids inclusion to the quote.

For example the title King George of England, doesn't change because he visited Spain for a couple of months. The same applies to Muur.






He is not technically born during that time, but it is the period of time where he establishes most of his infamy and power. Which is why, Darth Krayt of the Legacy Era works. The same can not be said for Muur who established himself during the time of the exiles. And only exists as a spirit bound to a tallisman, during the Legacy era. That elastic band is about to snap, Zig. Ease up there. Muur is of the Legacy era just like everyone else existing during it. Granted, I don't think either quotes are binding since "outshone" does not mean "better in every way, in every circumstance," and Muur's power during the Legacy era is intertwined with Celeste, who is not a Sith.

Like I said, if we simply defer to the material, we have answers available to us.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I already read your arguments, I just don't think they have any merit. No need to repost them. JMANGO's interpretation is correct, you're just trying to cheese your way out of the quote and Muur is from the Exile's era, not Krayt's.

Like JMANGO said, Muur himself is constantly pointing out that he's not from Krayts era. Your bitterness is palpable, but if you want to be a cheerleader for Ziggystardust, be my guest. I know how well you guys get along.

Its a free forum. I read your argument and found it lacking. Don't get mad at me if you don't like my opinion on the thread.

Muur exists during Krayt's own era, lol.

Technically speaking, he "is" encapsulated in the quote. Muur is a Sith of the Legacy era. The fact that he was "born" and "had power and influence" in another era doesn't change that.

Grasp at straws even more. It's quite funny, by all means.

And I can go down to a museum and look at a bronze age knife. Nobody would ever try and argue the knife is of the modern era just because it still exists though.

Further, if you want to argue intent, as it is exactly what you are doing here, the "intent" is for Krayt to be labelled a Sith of the Legacy era. Just as you are making another random appeal to intent for Muur to be from another era, the exact same can be said of Krayt.

But, "technically speaking" Muur does come under the quote. And given as to how Krayt is not born in the Legacy era( or even a Sith Lord), yeah, I don't think there is wriggle room.

"Any Sith of his era" does not mean, "Any Sith born in this era", it means "any Sith that exists in this era".

Its not exactly rocket science that its referring to Krayts "One Sith" order as being his era of Sith.

Yeah, and its not rocket science that Krayt is intended to be from the Legacy era in the quote, but he is in fact from the ROTE era.

You'll pardon me if I am not really convinced by this thing.

Anyways, let ILS continue his gig. I am done here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I can go down to a museum and look at a bronze age knife. Nobody would ever try and argue the knife is of the modern era just because it still exists though.

This is correct

BTW, swords just because Neph shows a love of soy at every turn doesn't mean he's incapable of being correct about the interpretation of a fictional universe on occasion.



A Keen observation.



He's a sith of the Exile Era, because that's were he established the entirety of his fame as a sith lord. As above. A Bronze age Knife doesn't become a knife of modern times simply because it still exists within a glass case in a museum.



It really does.

I think Krayt far outstripping Muur's spirit is not something that is in a great deal of contention either way, unless perhaps you are Neph. But like I said, Celeste is not a Sith. Muur "of this era" is a spirit, but of his own era he is not.

Anyway, I'm interested to see what the Zigmeister has come up with. Let's not derail the thread further.

I agree, the important thing to note is that for all of Krayts supposed superiority in lightning Muur easily handled it while taunting him about how shit he was.

Well if Krayt outstripping Muur as a a spirit is what the quote is in reference to than obviously he is >>>>>. And yeah, I still don't think there's a clear victor to this thread.

For the sake of clarity I'm going to post the whole fight, which I've annotated.
https://imgur.com/a/FsWLK

As I said, there is very little actual fighting between CeleMuur and Krayt.

Muur didn't "easily handle" Krayt's lightning... they were both firing lightning at each other... for a grand total of two comic panels, before Krayt was stabbed.

Originally posted by ILS
Muur didn't "easily handle" Krayt's lightning... they were both firing lightning at each other... for a grand total of two comic panels, before Krayt was stabbed.

https://i.imgur.com/2kDwXSK.jpg


Even Morne was blocking Krayts lightning with her lightsaber while blocking Maladi's lightning with her hand.

Thanks for proving my point?

Morne was rapidly losing against that duo, and then Krayt appeared to back off and began talking her down.

https://i.imgur.com/m6zS5bG.jpg

Like, seeing as you place so much stock in Muur's dialogue, you might have been honest enough to point out that even Muur states Krayt > Celeste. But you weren't.

So, how was there a decisive victor in that fight?

Originally posted by ILS
Thanks for proving my point?

Morne was rapidly losing against that duo, and then Krayt appeared to back off and began talking her down.

https://i.imgur.com/m6zS5bG.jpg

Like, seeing as you place so much stock in Muur's dialogue, you might have been honest enough to point out that even Muur states Krayt > Celeste. But you weren't.

I didn't? Muur was easily handling and absorbing Krayts lightning.

It doesn't make sense than Krayt would allow the fight to continue instead of subduing or capturing her.

Why would I mention that? This is Muur's thread, not Morne's. I only mentioned her to point that that in the specific area your quote is referring to, even she could block him and Maladi at once.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
So, how was there a decisive victor in that fight?

Spirit Muur is stronger than Cade. In his own body with his full power, he'd be even greater.

Clearly, Krayt>>>>>>>Spirit Muur. I am not yet buying that he is >Cade. Certainly not as a spirit.

B/w, I was talking about Krayt vs Celeste and Muur not about the fight in the thread.

Yes, clearly the person who lost the fight is ridiculously stronger than the person who basically curbstomped him.

Spirit Muur > Cade is directly stated.

Even Morne and Muur combined did nothing to Krayt till he was stabbed through the gut with a lightsaber. You know, the kind of injuries that would kill most force users on the spot.

Your logic is like saying Obi Wan "curbstomped" Maul because he cut him down faster than Maul could even react.

Where?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't? Muur was easily handling and absorbing Krayts lightning.

It doesn't make sense than Krayt would allow the fight to continue instead of subduing or capturing her.

Why would I mention that? This is Muur's thread, not Morne's. I only mentioned her to point that that in the specific area your quote is referring to, even she could block him and Maladi at once.
Muur shittalking while firing lightning at Krayt for two comic panels is not compelling evidence of... anything. Celeste is clearly not handling anything easily here.

https://i.imgur.com/T1N9D6O.png

And for proof they are both firing lightning rather than Muur simply absorbing Krayt's:

Morne using tutaminis on Maladi's lightning:
https://i.imgur.com/SEd1dBv.png
Muur using lightning on Krayt:
https://i.imgur.com/QdeeVlV.png

Krayt was going to defeat her with lightning, but then ended up bladelocking her and trying to draw her towards the dark side. Considering the litany of errors you've already made, I'm not sure why anyone would care about what makes sense to you.

And what exactly does Morne blocking Krayt and Maladi briefly prove? I'll answer for you: that she was about to lose. That's not a feat in excess of Cade.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Even Morne and Muur combined did nothing to Krayt till he was stabbed through the gut with a lightsaber. You know, the kind of injuries that would kill most force users on the spot.

Your logic is like saying Obi Wan "curbstomped" Maul because he cut him down faster than Maul could even react.

Where?

Proof that Muur was drawing on Mornes power?

"On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below."

Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt

It specifically says that Muur's own power outshone Cade's. Mornes power isn't something Muur himself possesses, so it isn't relevant to the quote.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof that Muur was drawing on Mornes power?

"On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below."

Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt

It specifically says that Muur's own power outshone Cade's. Mornes power isn't something Muur himself possesses, so it isn't relevant to the quote. In this context, all of Karness Muur's power was being channelled through Celeste Morne's body, which includes her own power. She, combined with Muur, is the Force user who outshone them. The powers they possessed that outshone were healing and rakghouls, and the only time they were outshone combat-wise was when a backstabbed Krayt got thrown away.

This just isn't rocket science, Neph.

It's apparently so easy to ignore Muur literally saying that he would draw on the power of Morne and feed off it.

Originally posted by ILS
Muur shittalking while firing lightning at Krayt for two comic panels is not compelling evidence of... anything. Celeste is clearly not handling anything easily here.

https://i.imgur.com/T1N9D6O.png

And for proof they are both firing lightning rather than Muur simply absorbing Krayt's:

Morne using tutaminis on Maladi's lightning:
https://i.imgur.com/SEd1dBv.png
Muur using lightning on Krayt:
https://i.imgur.com/QdeeVlV.png

Krayt was going to defeat her with lightning, but then ended up bladelocking her and trying to draw her towards the dark side. Considering the litany of errors you've already made, I'm not sure why anyone would care about what makes sense to you.

And what exactly does Morne blocking Krayt and Maladi briefly prove? I'll answer for you: that she was about to lose. That's not a feat in excess of Cade.

Did you... miss the line "I feed on your power and make it my own"? Muur was absorbing Krayts lightning. Morne was previously blocking Maladi's lightning with a different technique. Not entirely sure how that could be any more obvious.

That he was going to defeat her with it is merely your assumption. The fact is that last we see of the situation she was successfully blocking them both. For whatever reason he stopped, you don't know why. In the circumstances the were in it would clearly be better to just end the fight instead of risking Skywalker coming over to help or Muur gaining control, which is exactly what ends up happening. If he could end the fight but decided to try and turn her instead then he'd be a colossal moron.

It just indicates that his ability in this area is hardly overwhelming. I only mentioned it as an extra note in the first place, lol.

Originally posted by ILS
In this context, all of Karness Muur's power was being channelled through Celeste Morne's body, which includes her own power. She, combined with Muur, is the Force user who outshone them. The powers they possessed that outshone were healing and rakghouls, and the only time they were outshone combat-wise was when a backstabbed Krayt got thrown away.

This just isn't rocket science, Neph.

It says "a third force user", making it clear its referring to a singular person and the next sentence clarifies that the force user was Muur. And I already stated that your interpretation of the quote is just a reaching attempt to find a loophole. Neither healing nor rakghouls were at all relevant in that situation, its clearly referring to Muur being straight up more powerful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did you... miss the line "I feed on your power and make it my own"? Muur was absorbing Krayts lightning. Morne was previously blocking Maladi's lightning with a different technique. Not entirely sure how that could be any more obvious. I mean, if I had to guess, the splitting of text colour indicating that Muur and Morne were speaking in unison indicates to me that they're talking to each other. But more to the point, that one line doesn't change what is happening on panel; Morne's hand is in the textbook gesture of producing lightning, which is coming from her fingertips. If you can think of a different energy absorbing technique that isn't tutaminis, but also looks exactly like Force lightning, you might just be the greatest scholar of esoteric Star Wars lore we have in our midst.
Literally not true, it's also Muur's assessment, and given that he can feel all of Morne's senses, her body and her power, I'd say he's in a good position to do so. To be clear, even Krayt could feel when Morne was drawing on Muur more heavily, so the notion that Muur is unclear about the situation is absurd.
Luckily... Krayt tells us.
https://i.imgur.com/PPNR5n0.png

Originally posted by Nephthys
It says "a third force user", making it clear its referring to a singular person and the next sentence clarifies that the force user was Muur. And I already stated that your interpretation of the quote is just a reaching attempt to find a loophole. Neither healing nor rakghouls were at all relevant in that situation, its clearly referring to Muur being straight up more powerful. It says a third Force user possessed powers which outshone Krayt and Cade. CeleMuur being able to heal Krayt, something everyone else had failed at up to that point, easily qualifies. You're just trying to force an interpretation out of some odd kind of desperation.

For the rest of your points.

Originally posted by ILS
The core point being, though, that you're saying Muur + his amulet, is more powerful than Muur's spirit + his amulet + an already considerably powerful Force user such as Celeste Morne.

http://imagineathena.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/cathy-newman-jordan-peterson-.png

No that's not what I'm saying. In fact, I haven't yet made the comparison between Murr parading in Celeste's body and Murr as he existed in the flesh. My point was that Spirit Muur - independent of any other force user as a conduit - would be substantially weaker than Murr with his own functioning body. This is seen with pretty much all sith spirits. He would be weakened in every possible manner in regards to affecting beings or objects with the force. To which you have this to say this :

Originally posted by ILS

Fully agreed

I'm glad you agree. You support the idea that Spirit Murr is weaker than his living self. Why is this relevant? Well, let's have a look at what you're saying.






That Muur's failure to dominate either two with Essence Transfer demonstrates his inferiority to them. Which is irrelevant given that :

1) He's a spirit

2) He's can't channel powers through them while attempting to invade them

3) It's probably not even a direct example of superiority/inferiority et all

You're core point here is that Cade and Celeste were able to resist Spirit Muur's attempts to control their bodies against their own will... which is irrelevant to the thread, given the iterations being discussed and the method of measuring them. So my actual point stands. That using spirit Murr's demonstrations of power does not give us a reliable indication to Cap living Muur... as you previously agreed. Now as for the equations you've come up with.



Ultimately this comparison fails because... surprise surprise, Muur's spirit coincides with his living body. You can separate the spirit from the body, just as Exar Kun did with Luke. The reason Sith Spirits have a hindered ability to affect the physical realm with their powers is probably due to the lack of living tissue (midi-chlorians) needed to connect to the Force. Which is why they seek out a suitable conduit. A "host" body to channel their powers through. This is where your equation fails. Celeste Morne merely acts as a substitute for his own body in this instance - a suitable force sensitive vessel to use his powers through. So rather than the equation looking like this



It's more like this :

Muur's Spirit + Muur's physical body + Muur's talisman

vs

Muur's Spirit + Celeste Morne's body + Muur's talisman

The constant variables (the spirit and talisman) in this equation cancel each other out, meaning we're left down to wether Celeste's body has more natural potential to use the Force than Muur's own. Which isn't something either of us know. What we do know, however, is that Murr actively contends with Celeste for control over her body. As you put it, "a battle of wills" is commencing in this scenario. Meaning that if Muur is spending an inordinate amount of will power in keeping Morne at bay, it detracts from the powers he uses offensively. Given this circumstance, yes, we have reason to assume Muur is more powerful in his own corporeal body, where he isn't contending with another party for control of it.



https://kedificil.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Mark-Wahlberg-Confused-In-The-Happening-400x198.gif

All this does is prove that Celest Morne is >> Shadow Vao.



Because the powers concerning duelling : augmentation, precognition and sensing the bare bones practices compared to fields like sorcery. One having more aptitude in the grass roots abilties indicates better raw power. This is oppose to comparing each others performances in the arcane. You would have a point if Zannah ragdollled him in their fight. More importantly, both have aptitude, training and a likening to the former study, while only bane has no talent for Sorcery. Ergo, he was the stronger force user during their fight, yet despite using a ritual that destroyed his body in the process, his essence transfer failed - ergo the failure to possess another being with essence transfer ins't a sound indication of inferiority/superiority between adversaries. Even if it was, Cade and Celeste are at best above Spirit Murr, who as you agree, is weaker than his living iteration.





Then for debates sake, i ask that you don't pull similar stunts in regards to language. Because the only reason I addressed the Reborn Krayt vs Cade segment was because i found the term "trashing" misleading regarding their battle.

The idea that Spirit!Krayt would eventually invade Cade's Mind after his death was based on false pretences. This is evidenced by the fact that 1) it didn't happen. 2) that Living!Krayt had demoralised Cade with a doom and gloom vision depicting courescant as an ash tray, with Cade, fully possessed by Krayt, as the perpetrator.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-03-2018/5wJvH4.gif

And it's not like a fever dream vision ever mislead a Skywalker to commit acts of poor judgment before, right...? Cade was never under any real threat of possession, even if he personally thought otherwise. He was wrong.



It doesn't show any superiority to Muur on Krayt's part. Both of their attempts to possess Cade failed. Both Sith Spirits were vanquished. Muur because the object that tethered his spirit was destroyed. Krayt because he had nothing to tether his spirit to. That's why post-mortem Muur existed for a little longer than the comic equivalent of a few pages, and why Krayt did not. You can argue that Krayt made a little more leeway in undermining Cade's resolve, convincing him that suicide would be the safest bet to prevent his possession, but that's only because of the vision Cade had while the former was still breathing - a dying courescant at the hands of an evil Cade. And of course, after Skywalker dumped the Sith's body into the Sun, Krayt couldn't even reach him. The only time Krayt makes any genuine progress into "destroying Cade's identity" is during their battle, which still ultimately resulted in failure, to which you have to say this:



That's because your comparing flesh and bone Reborn Krayt to Spirit Murr. A comparison I wouldn't dream of making. What's worse is that you've made this argument - that a failure to dominate ones mind shows realistic inferiority to the victim. Which would then mean that Cade > Reborn Krayt. I guess that means Krayt's use of dark transfer and against Cade was... a statistical uncertainty?



http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj133/lee_21pinky/Jokerclapping.gif




Except the quote doesn't say he's stronger than sith existing during this era. It says he's stronger than sith of Krayt's era Now there's simple question to conclude this premise. Is Karness Muur a Sith of Darth Krayt's era? The answer is no. A 19th century Flintlock Pistol doesn't become a firearm of modern times because one can be purchased on eBay. I hope I don't have to elaborate on this point again, given that you've already made an omission :



So even if the quote incapsulates Muur (it doesn't) it's referring to him as a Sith Spirit, who has most likely, close to zero capabilities with TK and Lighting on his own.



The point was that if Muur has the better resources in the field Krayt dedicated his life to studying, he probably has greater depth of knowledge relating to combat too; a more potent variant of drain, better sorcery etc. Powers that can be used in a vs thread that the opponent may not even be able to counter. This is likely due to the amounts of sith knowledge that is destroyed or lost overtime.



This is funny, because I also much prefer to look at what's happening in the material and draw my conclusions from that. Which is why accolades that describe events, make a comparison between characters where no clear superiority is established or simply hype someone, are simply useless to me. I've been consistent about this philosophy for a long enough time. Use of this quote was an appeal to those who are rigid in their approach to accolades - and honestly, i thought you fit in with that crowd. Those that view an accolade as nothing but evidence of itself. I disagree, which is why my thoughts on the thread are still this :



I just found some of the attempts to undermine Muur bad. Such as use of a quote that can not reffer to him.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight


Your logic is like saying Obi Wan "curbstomped" Maul because he cut him down faster than Maul could even react.

That was circumstantial and can't be applied to other fights:

I was talking about the TPM duel.

Cade:
Geistalt
ILS
LordOfTheLight
deathslash

I mean, he did kill Muur already thanks to Shatterpoint. Even if he is still weaker by the end of Legacy.

Muur:
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Haschwalth
Jmanghan
Nephthys

Originally posted by JMANGO
No that's not what I'm saying. In fact, I haven't yet made the comparison between Murr parading in Celeste's body and Murr as he existed in the flesh.Yeah, I jumped the gun, you have my most sincere apologies, Zigmeister.

Agreed.



I can't say for certain it proves he's inferior. Where our wires have crossed is that while I don't think a spirit > the full body, I didn't interpret battles of the mind and spirit as affairs that factor in the body. Battles like Wyyrlok vs Andeddu, Krayt and Luke vs Abeloth, Zannah vs Bane, and so on, seem to be battles that are primarily concerned with willpower. The power of x's spirit/mind versus y's. Both trying to obliterate each other, so that only one identity remains. However...
Yeah, until I have further clarity on the exact mechanics of spirits trying to possess beings, I'll concede the point. It does seem fair that trying to destroy someone's mind and inhabit their body would be a more difficult task than simply defending one's self, even if the defender is inferior.
I believe I've fixed our equation.

You're forgetting that Morne's body is not an empty vessel, but is commanded by her own spirit. If we agree that the body and the spirit both bring power to the equation, then Morne's body is being amplified by two spirits. A potent example of this is when SWTOR's Darth Nox binds six Sith spirits to his body and draws on their power to amplify his own. Now, of course there are select moments where Morne chooses not to draw on Muur's power, or only uses some of it, but my position is just that if she was in unison with Muur's spirit, as we see right at the end of the fight with Krayt, that's how I think the equation would look.

And if you agree with me on how those mechanics play out, then my question to you becomes, which equation is stronger? Equation A (normal, living Muur) or Equation B (full bodied Morne and Muur's spirit in unison, as we see in Legacy).

I understand if you're not sure who is better, because neither am I, but I do find it more likely that Muur's physical body makes up the difference of both Morne's own body and spirit, with Muur's spirit-talisman being the common variable.

Basically, Celeste Morne > Muur's uninhabited body. Does that seem reasonable?
Yup. But yeno, I figure if Morne's full spirit and body contribute less than just Muur's body, she would have to have much fewer midichlorians. Whether that's the case, is not for me to know currently.

I'm not sure that's how it works. When Morne is losing control of her body, it's because her resolve is weakening, and she's drawing more and more on Muur's power. It doesn't seem like Muur is keeping her at bay, more like he's pushing her on to draw on the power of his spirit, which he offers to her freely, and she's resisting the temptation.

Given what we discussed about the absence of Morne's spirit as a power source in your equation, and how Muur is freely offering his power to Morne, do you still think this makes sense?

It seems like a purely profitable relationship for Morne power-wise, providing she chooses to partake, rather than two stifled minds fighting each other for control. That certainly doesn't appear to be the case when they're speaking in unison with each other at the end.

It could be that Bane is more powerful than Zannah, I've not really given it a lot of thought. Other point has been discussed already.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but quite unlike your own, my posts in this thread have been quite rapid-fire. I don't really care to watch over every single word I choose to use, and polish every post I make.

Fair points, but it also doesn't preclude the possibility that Cade would have been taken over, either. I have a feeling that, with Krayt forcing words into his head and "eating" his mind - which lines up with the description of ET being the destruction of the host's identity - Cade likely has a better idea of the situation than me or you. In which case, I'm gonna take him on his word that Krayt possessing him was a serious possibility.

Yes it does, if you compare them openly and fairly, instead of hyper-analysing only those points that support your own point of view, which is basically what you've been doing this whole debate (yes, I saw that you basically omitted any of the reasonable points I made from your response, rather than clarifying your stance on them - which reduces this from a discussion to pure sport).

Cade, ez

Not even sure what you were trying to say here.

Yeah, no shit, Ziggy. Muur at best felt like "sand on metal," and at worse offered no real threat to Cade, making him laugh. Even when Cade puts his Talisman on, allowing them to share one body, tethering them together. This is a Cade who has recently been put through the Embrace of Pain and trained under the Sith for about a month, immersing himself deeply into the dark side, where his temptation and lack of emotional control would be at one it's peaks.

https://imgur.com/a/fN2Cb

Compare that to a Cade who has gone through numerous trials, become more "focused", bathed himself in the light side when saving the love of his life, and acquired a "newfound mastery of the Force." Then compare the effect Krayt has on him, as a spirit tethered to nothing but his own corpse, rather than one of the most powerful Force-imbued artifacts ever made.

https://i.imgur.com/ohhOX6z.png
https://i.imgur.com/47SP0tC.png

Regardless of how successful Krayt would have been in possessing Cade, he was in far less an advantageous position to do so than Muur, and got much further toward that objective, despite Cade being more head-strong and powerful than ever.

I think Krayt forcibly eating his mind might have contributed, just a little bit.

Yes, Cade overestimated Krayt's reach when he thought to throw himself into the sun too. No, Krayt did make "any genuine process" to destroying Cade's mind, and you'd be foolish to assert otherwise. He showed no signs of slowing down his "infecting" of Cade's mind.

I wasn't aware that Krayt's spirit contained the power of his body after it had been run through with a lightsaber, and that this is somehow more beneficial than a weaker Cade trying Muur's talisman on for size, but thanks for enlightening me.


I made the argument that Muur failing to dominate Morne after a century of being tethered to her shows inferiority, and while I amended my position on that, you're essentially strawmanning me here. And no, due to the fact Krayt appeared to be succeeding in "eating" Cade's mind, it could well be that he would have succeeded at some point, although it's equally possible Cade would have banished him.

And I'm not sure why you're trying return to the topic of Krayt and Cade's duel, when you opted to ignore an entire rebuttal I made to one of your arguments on that point. I mean, I guess you really enjoy undermining Krayt's victory there, as you do with Caedus, providing it ends up servicing your wankery of Kun and co., but how about instead of posting gifs and ignoring arguments you just address the point?

The flaw with your argument is that while a 19th century flintlock pistol is a firearm of the 19th century, if one were to say "the AK-47 is the most powerful firearm of it's era," it'd be making a comparison to all other firearms existing during that era. Just because a firearm was made in a prior era, that it exists in the current one means it is fit to be compared to. It is historically "of" the 19th century but also is "of" the current era, as it still exists.

In this case, Krayt is the AK-47, and Muur's spirit is the 19th century flintlock. I hope you understand the difference.
(It does), and I'm not sure why you're still talking about this, since I made my stance on it clear already pages prior.
No, Muur having better knowledge of the healing arts does not mean he has greater knowledge of other arts. You would need to, you know, prove that he does.

Indeed? Do tell.

Go on. I'd love to hear about them.

Krayt not having access to knowledge of one power that has been lost or destroyed since Muur's time, means that Muur probably knows more than Krayt about a litany of other powers, without actual proof? Uh??

https://kedificil.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Mark-Wahlberg-Confused-In-The-Happening-400x198.gif

*** fixed

Originally posted by ILS
Yeah, I jumped the gun, you have my most sincere apologies, Zigmeister.






Well that's where our convictions differ. Because I'm almost certain that Muur's failed attempts to transfer his essence into Cade or Celest Morne do not prove he's inferior to them. This isn't just due to the lack of proof for such a claim, but also because the possible implications that it has on the Star Wars universe. For example, do you not think there's a reason why :

1) Palpatine, as of Dark Empire, opted to transfer his essence into clones of himself

2) When the clones were destroyed, Sidious' next target was the unborn Anakin solo

3) He never considered possessing Leia or Luke in a venerable moment

Think about that for a moment, and maybe you'll begin to understand just how hard it is to use this technique against someone who is not only strong in the force, but also unwilling to bend over and allow a sith spirit to erode their conciseness while parading their skin.



Well Bane would certainly disagree. Given that a battle of the mind and spirit took every fibre of his being to fuel, leaving his body completely disintegrated. So I'll continue with this line of thought - pretty much any battle involving the force, will be decided by one's capability to use the force. So I don't see why there's problem in agreeing that Muur is at a disadvantage when lacking a proper vessel to use his powers, especially when you're fully agreed that he's weaker as a spirit. I'll say it again. All sith spirits will be weaker than their living selves in of any field of power. Including the mind. Lesser sith spirits aren't even able to possess/influence non force sensitives. To reiterate, Just because a battle "of the mind" is commencing, one's connection to the force doesn't become irrelevant, otherwise non force users would have an even shot at competing in this field. Case in point, Celest Morne can't be compared to Muur, when the she is capable of channeling her full power against his hindered spirit. The comparison will always be lopsided in her favour.



Good stuff. Now I'm glad I could convince you of this with my own dialect. But as it happens, everything I've said is backed up by a very clear, cut and dry piece of evidence. Something that I've decided to keep sheathed in case you needed a little extra push of convincing:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-05-2018/J24Wvv.gif

- Taken from the Dark Empire source book

Palatine had already dominated Luke's mind in the flesh (something Krayt failed to do against Cade mind) but clearly attempting to possess his body as a spirit is something much much harder. So when we look again at Muur's relationship with Morne, it becomes clear that a centuries worth of prying and undermining is more a testament to the nigh impossibility of what he was attempting. Rather than something that reflects badly on him.



I'm not forgetting Morne's spirit at all. As it's antithetical to the general equation of power. Their relationship is represented as two conscious identities competing for control over one vessel. The articles on essence transfer back this up, with the user having to overcome the host spirit or overwrite their conciseness. That's why Morne proclaims she's been fighting Muur for control of her body for over a century. Her spirit is at the very best absent from the equitation, but it's most likely the competing factor. This is especially represented in the fight with Krayt with Morne actively suppressing him. And I seriously doubt that the format of the speech bubble represents their union, but more than likely it represents her struggle against him, given that this was her conviction two pages prior :

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-06-2018/PKbfiM.gif




https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-12-2017/hXyLdb.gif

"I have a good idea ! Let's take the well established and long standing mechanics from one power, and change it so it's fits with this completely unrelated power exhibited by Darth Nox"... No. That doesn't work, there's plenty of material on the subject that could have expanded to include a spirit drain mechanic as part of essence transfer. But it doesn't. And just because one power operates in the realm of the spirit, does not mean it's functionally is identical to another. That would be the same as expecting Kenobi's Soresu to emulate the siphoning ability of Vappad because both techniques require lightsabers.

There is virtually no possibility that Cade would have been taken over. The idea is based entirely on false pretences, which is illustrated very nicely in the scene. Cade was obviously ignorant that even the slightest attempt to rebuke Krayt's efforts would banish the Sith Spirit forever. This is of course, is exactly what happens he decides not to an hero. Ultimately, the only reason Krayt's spirit had the most minute of chances was because of a vision Cade experienced depicting the doom of Courescant with himself a possessed dark sider. He relays this information to Luke, while the latter is attempting talk some sense into him. Krayt is playing off this fear which allows him to "infect" his mind withe the (false) possibility of possession. For Krayt It's a feat that relies purely on the circumstances of the situation, rather then an accurate representation of his power against others.



Well you're wrong, given that Cade doesn't have access to various source books or Darth Sidious himself telling him that :

1) possession of a host is nearly impossible if the target is unwilling

2) the disastrous implications that a failed essence transfer has

3) that even though Cade can't physically harm Krayt's essence, the latter has no way of sustaining himself

4) The moment Cade rejects the idea of being possessed, Krayt is gone forever.

And as mentioned before, Krayt couldn't even destroy Cade's identity at his full power, which is no where near as difficult compared to invading his body as a spirit. This pretty much solidifies the idea that Cade was simply spooked by the vision he saw, and is operating on the false pretence that his possession at the hands of Krayt is inevitable. This fear is the only thing that allows Krayt's spirit to exist, and when it vanishes, so does he:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-06-2018/H_NPQE.gif

But let's just look at this hilarious appeal to false authority for a moment and think about the implications. A lesson in disregarding Character fallibility that ends this thread; Karness Muur has easily defeated Sith lords more powerful than Krayt. The fallibility of this statement is thrown out because Muur "has a better idea of the situation than you or I"

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-06-2018/2w-CJw.gif



I Ignored those points because I was addressing the idea that Krayt was a league ahead Cade and can dominate him at a whim, a stance which you amended. But let's re visit those points.

1) Krayt failed to dominate Cade with TK
2) Krayt failed to subdue him with lightning
3) The lightsaber duel was inconclusive
4) Krayt failed to subdue Cade's mind and was stabbedd after the attempt

I still think that Reborn Krayt > Cade, but that their duel ultimately came down to Krayt's element of surprise in using an attack Cade never expected. And his ability to place his hand on Cade. A result that can easily be explained by statistical uncertainty.



And I guess you really enjoy feasting on Krayt's Vong infested nut sack.



This can be saved for another thread.



The difference is that when I wank Kun, it's based of accurate metrics in which he can be compared to others. For example, I see Kun maintain a force stun over a million+ people while beating the renowned Jedi weapon master in the era of weapon masters. And i say that if Maul had that level of power and skill, he wouldn't be running from a group of pirates. Ultimately these premises don't end up with me making a host of memeworthy logical blunders, for example : Muur's Essence Transfer is the same as Nox's ghost binding. Or that a 19th century flintlock pistol is a firearm of the same era as an AK 47.



https://media.giphy.com/media/65fiHpjKxyBgc/giphy.gif



What if one where to say the AK-47 is the weakest firearm of it's era?would the comparison realistically include firearms of the 19th century? No because flintlock pistol is not of the same era as the AK47. Just like Muur is not of Krayt's era. r,



It does suggest as much. It's not guaranteed, but likely. The fact is that Krayt had a very long life to seek out answers regarding a field of abilties that was of paramount importance to him. Muur's showing better expertise in that particular tenant of the force, is a testament to his knowledge of force powers. And probably a testament to the wealth of knowledge his kind had access to that was subsequently lost over time. Either that or he's just more powerful.

I'll point out that Nox's body couldn't actually handle the ghosts power and it was destroying her and going out of control.

No need to derail the thread Nephtits

It massively aids your argument though. Because Nox vs. 5 Sith spirits was still a mental battle that Nox was stalemating in. They couldn't overwhelm the host. Valkorion couldn't even permanently destroy the Outlander's psyche, yet he's effortlessly dominating both of the spirits of Arcann and Vaylin. The host has the most control, hence Outlander literally forcing weaknesses upon Valk's spirit where they'd never existed before.

There's countless other examples, let alone spirit Kun's less than dominant interactions with Gantoris, Streen and a bunch of others who are utter plebs in comparison when it came to battle of wills.

Well I tried to help. :I

Originally posted by AncientPower
https://youtu.be/Vdd4rBlsj2o?t=36
Very insightful.