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Vader

Vader is too powerful.

Vader.

How do you all think 17BBY Vader would fare against prime Malgus?

Originally posted by CuckedCurry
How do you all think 17BBY Vader would fare against prime Malgus?

He would win if we take his better showings, but he's inconsistent as of that time period.

I'd go with Prime Malgus tbh.

I fail to see Muur, this Vader direct superior, stronger than Act 3 HoT tbh.

Vader.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
I fail to see Muur, this Vader direct superior, stronger than Act 3 HoT tbh.
Proof where?

17bby isn't all that long after RotS. His combat skills are sketchy, and his strength/durability alone won't give him a win over Malgus.

Except most of Vader's best durability feats are close to RotS?

19 BBY Vader > Kar Vastor > TCW Mace Windu > Revan

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except most of Vader's best durability feats are close to RotS? Not the point. Malgus is pretty durable himself. Vader is still slowed down by his suit at this point.

Malgus.

as of this point in time i would have to say malgus. vader is still getting adjusted to his suit and is not at his prime.

Malgus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Malgus.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
19 BBY Vader > Kar Vastor > TCW Mace Windu(Yoda level) > Revan

Interesting list you got there.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Malgus.

Vader asks Malgus to sign his copy of Book of Sith.

Malgus puts him in a coma.

Malgus brushes Vader aside and signs Bandon's first.

I think there's a cognitive bias here: "17 BBY" draws your focus to Vader's weaker showings from that era, but you may forget to look to Deceived Malgus's feats and realize that he has a lot of the same silly lowballing as well. (e.g. also struggles against Aryn Leneer who's just as "random" as the Jedi Vader struggles against).

At least Vader's lower end showings are balanced by really high-end ones like being put above Kar Vastor, being described by people who have met Yoda as being the most powerful person they've ever met, etc.

"cognitive bias"

LMFAO

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
"cognitive bias"

LMFAO

Cringe

Impersonation skills need work, get DMB next time he's non-sober to give you a few tips

Malgus just has better feats across the board.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think there's a cognitive bias here: Of that much, you are absolutely correct. It's a shame you have no idea who's suffering from it.

Your pseudo-intellectual psychoanalysis is pants on head retarded, btw.
Nobody with a brain needs to lowball Vader this early in his career to give Malgus the nod.
Elm, do put on a show for us, and cite the specific names of the Jedi that are "just as random" as Aryn Leneer.

Originally posted by ILS
Of that much, you are absolutely correct. It's a shame you have no idea who's suffering from it.

LMFAO

I like this new ILS, we could use someone volunteering as tribute to keep things spicy around here.



mmm You mean ILS one-two months ago didn't have a brain when he agreed that 19 BBY Vader > Mace/Dooku and > Karness Muur?

Anyway, no idea how you went from pointing out that there is a variance of the distributions of Vader's feats from this era to "I don't need to lowball".



I suppose you're trying to put on a rhetorical device here, but you don't actually make an argument. The burden of proof would be on you to explain these Jedi, since I'm not using them as an active argument, lol.

In either case, you didn't actually respond to the good accolades/feats I brought up from this time period, or bring up anything positive on Malgus's end, so I don't see anything substantive that came out of it. 10/10 troll, literally 0/10 argument, so mission accomplished.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
LMFAO

I like this new ILS, we could use someone volunteering as tribute to keep things spicy around here. I can't tell you how glad I am. You basically offered yourself to new!ILS on a platter. Time to make some spicy curry out of you.

Even if that is true, anyone going by the name of ILS one-two months ago is an unrecognisable, putrid, festering husk of a debater that would not even be fit to lick my toilet seat clean. Lucky for you, however, we have a job opening.

You posited that the reason people were giving Malgus the nod is because "their focus" was drawn to Vader's lowliest showings. I was simply pointing out that this is symptomatic of brain injury on your part, and I think you're better than that.

No, you said that the "Jedi Vader struggles against" are "just as random" as Aryn Leneer. Tell me who they are, seeing as you are the one who started your posting in this thread by hurling pseudo-intellectual psychoanalytical accusations of cognitive bias at the other fine denizens of KMC.

Your stupid scaling related to Vastor and Yoda nonwithstanding, Malgus' feats are just better at this point. The Jedi Malgus has defeated are in excess of any Vader has beaten, to my current knowledge, and his lightning is not an inconsiderable asset with it's ability to casually harvest three Jedi in one blast, and totally annihilate Aryn Leneer's prepared defences by the end of the book.

This being in stark contrast to their first fight, where she handled Malgus' lightning just fine while flipping through the air, with her also being distinctly inferior in focus, clarity and thus power than she is by the end.

In addition, this is Vader merely two years after Revenge of the Sith, where he has suffered an immense loss in Force connection but has not yet attained the indispensable experience and knowledge he is going to acquire over the next couple of decades. In contrast, Malgus is about 40 around Deceived, and has been in constant warfare against the Jedi since he was 20, where already he was accoladed as one of the greatest warriors in the Empire. By Deceived, he is one of if not the foremost warrior's in Vitiate's army, leading an elite squad of Sith to destroy the Jedi temple, and is still yet to undergo a life-changing epiphany which exponentially increases his connection to the dark side.

Now, go ahead, and with a straight face, tell me that "this doesn't necessarily prove Malgus is better", and give the nod to 17BBY Vader, who at best by this stage in time has been given Malgus' war journal as a source of inspiration for his own nascent powers.

Originally posted by Kurk
Not the point. Malgus is pretty durable himself.
Being shot to death shows durability? Anything he's shown to be durable against, the same can be said of non-Force Sensitives in literally the exact same positions at the exact same time.

Not sure
Vader should decimate if he used TK though

Originally posted by carthage
Not sure
Vader should decimate if he used TK though Not feeling trolly today?


@ILS bro, you need to pop chill pill. There's no need to get this motherf*cking heated in a casual thread like this. Am I the only one who gets a "I'm going to pop through this computer screen and beat your ass boi" vibe any time ILS responds to someone?


Seriously, take one:
https://img.medscapestatic.com/pi/features/drugdirectory/octupdate/DIS31050.jpg

Why would Vader decimate Malgus with TK again? I don't think a single Jedi Vader's faced at this point compares to Leneer in TK.

Novel Revan>Kotor Revan>>Malak>Exar Kun>Karness Muur>18BBY Vader>Dooku>TPM Mace> Novel Revan

WTf's up between ILS and Elim?

Well, whatever, should be fun. I'll side with Elim 4 now. Vader is fam after all.

Anyone wanna make a senpai joke?

Nor should he. An excess of heat is known to make computer's processes bend or break.

I like this troll-ILS. Sadly, much like Anakin, he appears to have lost much of his abilities - perhaps he sees a little bit of 17BBY Vader in himself? mmm

Originally posted by ILS
Even if that is true, anyone going by the name of ILS one-two months ago is an unrecognisable, putrid, festering husk of a debater that would not even be fit to lick my toilet seat clean. Lucky for you, however, we have a job opening.


You realize that this implies that Eillimist > January ILS, right?



https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5175/5536695127_4303b4540b_b.jpg





Ferus Olin was considered by Obi Wan to be the second most gifted apprentice in the entire Order after Anakin - and when he later fights Vader (not as an apprentice), not only loses but says he moved faster than any Jedi he's ever seen, sans Yoda.

Aryn Leneer received no such accolades or recognition - she was considered above average, maybe even significantly so, but certainly not second to the Chosen One of her apprentice class lol.



Impressive but insufficient without knowing the capabilities of those Jedi.



Aryn Leneer struggled to shield herself from a terminal velocity fall and ended up injuring herself in the process. Anakin casually does this while also timing himself to land on a specific airspeeder out of the traffic of Coruscant with no injuries...

in Attack of the Clones. As a padawan.



Sure, 17BBY Vader is significantly weaker than Anakin Skywalker. So is Malgus, so what's your point?



Funny that Pax Javan, who has met Yoda, padawan Anakin, and likely many other Jedi like Mace Windu and Obi Wan, thought this era's Vader was the most powerful being he'd ever met. Was Javan utterly delusional about these legendary Jedi's abilities? He was no scrub - he was a full Jedi Knight whose abilities were considered noticeably above average, so he's more than qualified enough to have a faint grasp of how powerful people in the Order are.

What about Ferus Olin, one of the most gifted Jedi in the entire Order? Was he just delusional when he thought Vader moved faster than anyone he'd seen other than Yoda? Was the second most gifted Jedi of his generation utterly clueless about his comrades' power levels?

To be clear, I agree that 17BBY Vader would not actually stand a chance against, say, Yoda or peak Mace Windu in a fight. He emanates an enormous level of raw power that multiple credible sources agree is incredible, but he still hasn't regained his former self's confidence and practical power - but against Malgus, whose innate talents with the Force by Deceived are paltry in comparison, the clunkiness of Vader's suit still isn't enough to give Malgus the victory, not when Malgus needs some sort of epiphany to beat someone who can't do something padawan Anakin does in his sleep.



Lmfao, the Tenebrous-era Banite Sith also considered Darth Bane's power to be "legendary", and Sidious himself praised Malgus's battlefield exploits, so I suppose this means Bane and Malgus > Palpatine now?

^Delete This

That retarded speeder feat is still getting thrown around? Jesus.

I'm pretty sure that literally stopping yourself in in mid-air from terminal velocity while carrying someone is slightly different from just cushioning your impact. Later on Malgus jumps from above the Jedi temple and smashes into the ground hard enough to shatter the stone around them while unleashing a two-handed power attack on Leneer, who blocks it as well as his force wave while also deflecting the shrapnel from the impact.

But no, Anakin jumped onto a speeder.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That retarded speeder feat is still getting thrown around? Jesus.

I'm pretty sure that literally stopping yourself in in mid-air from terminal velocity while carrying someone is slightly different from just cushioning your impact.

Her method was obviously less effective given that she injured herself despite expending considerable effort while Anakin pulled his version off casually. If Leneer could've done what Anakin did, she obviously would've.

The carrying someone else part is pretty trivial unless if you think a Jedi should struggle over a human's body weight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Her method was obviously less effective given that she injured herself despite expending considerable effort while Anakin pulled his version off casually. If Leneer could've done what Anakin did, she obviously would've.

The carrying someone else part is pretty trivial unless if you think a Jedi should struggle over a human's body weight.

Perhaps she couldn't just land normally with the guy without the impact shattering his body. Maybe she'd just never attempted something like that before.

It doesn't matter, since like I said Malgus lands with a far greater impact than Anakin did with absolutely no ill effect. Leneer likewise takes his full impact on her guard while shrugging off his wave of power and deflecting the shrapnel with only minor trouble. The feat is utterly useless as any kind of scaling.

I foresee Neph defeating Andy here, if I'm being 100% honest.

And me and Neph are in no way fond of each other, historically.

Looking forward to seeing this unfold while I type my response.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps she couldn't just land normally with the guy without the impact shattering his body.

Doesn't really have to do with her own injuries, unless if she would struggle so much to levitate a human body, which would be equally bad. The concentration needed to do that padawan-tier feat shouldn't compare to the concentration Anakin needed to avoid every single airspeeder and then land on the right one at exactly the right place and moment.



There are always ways to mitigate bad feats ("maybe she'd never tried it before!", that doesn't invalidate it as an argument.



Well this was about the feat of beating Leneer, not the whole body of Malgus's feats. But that's still not as impressive as what Anakin did for a variety of reasons, like Malgus landing on his feet and not needing to time his fall.

Also, how is it greater impact? Anakin also landed on a really fast (> 80 mph?) airspeeder.



There's clearly a difference between blocking that attack with her lightsaber and doing what Anakin did.

I actually just checked the book and earlier she jumps off a hundred meter ledge and casually hits the floor.

"A hundred meters down, the Alderaanian landscape unrolled before her, a meadow of tall grasses, shrubs, and slim apo trees that whispered and swayed in the breeze. She could not see the walls of the compound through the vegetation.

....

Heart racing, she turned and leapt into the open air, following her thoughts groundward, untethered from the Order, from nonattachment, from everything save her need to right a wrong.

Using the Force to slow her descent, she hit the ground in a crouch and sped off. No one had seen her leave and no one would mark her absence before dawn. She would be at her ship and gone well before that."

Glad to finally put this to rest.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I actually just checked the book and earlier she jumps off a hundred meter ledge and casually hits the floor.

"A hundred meters down, the Alderaanian landscape unrolled before her, a meadow of tall grasses, shrubs, and slim apo trees that whispered and swayed in the breeze. She could not see the walls of the compound through the vegetation.

....

Heart racing, she turned and leapt into the open air, following her thoughts groundward, untethered from the Order, from nonattachment, from everything save her need to right a wrong.

Using the Force to slow her descent, she hit the ground in a crouch and sped off. No one had seen her leave and no one would mark her absence before dawn. She would be at her ship and gone well before that."

Glad to finally put this to rest.

There's no comparison between just jumping onto the ground while having to brace her fall on her feet and navigating through a traffic of airspeeders, hitting a metal surface at the right time and getting immediately accelerated to > 80 mph along a different axis while landing on your stomach/face.

Right, since she wasn't trying to do any of that so its a pointless comparison to try and make. haermm

Your point was that she failed to stick the landing. I proved she could easily do that shit, so its irrelevant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your point was that she failed to stick the landing. I proved she could easily do that shit, so its irrelevant.

No, not really because she fails to do the same feat later when she's falling from a longer distance (read: closer to what Anakin was dealing with) and carrying someone.

Now, which do you think is a harder mitigating circumstance: carrying/levitating a human sized body or the equivalent of getting hit by an 80 mph car-sized object?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, not really because she fails to do the same feat later when she's falling from a longer distance (read: closer to what Anakin was dealing with) and carrying someone.

Now, which do you think is a harder mitigating circumstance: carrying/levitating a human sized body or the equivalent of getting hit by an 80 mph car-sized object?

She doesn't fail it, she actually completely stops her momentum, which is better and obviously more effort inducing than what Anakin did. The distance isn't that relevant, she'd already be going pretty fast feet first compared to Anakin's belly flop. Just give this up, its an idiotic argument and you're embarrassing yourself.

He hit it, he didn't get hit by it. So obviously its the first one since its the only actual mitigating factor. If anything hitting a hovercar that can bounce in midair is worse than hitting the ground. Like I said, she probably couldn't just take the impact normally because the other guy isn't a Jedi and would get ****ing pancaked.

Since the impact is clearly not any kind of a big deal the feats done, none of the other stuff is relevant. Unless you want to argue that Anakins better than literally anyone who hasn't done this very specific set of stuff this discussion should be over.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless you want to argue that Anakins better than literally anyone who hasn't done this very specific set of stuff this discussion should be over. As you will see shortly, Ellimist only prescribes to such logic when it suits him.

There will be much squirming, and everyone will be here to enjoy it.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-G7KExZIrt9s/WpzJTAkIi7I/AAAAAAAAIn0/ND2BIZkH0Gka9xHFeJh1-CaEApvrE81hgCL0BGAYYCw/h236/timing.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
She doesn't fail it, she actually completely stops her momentum, which is better and obviously more effort inducing than what Anakin did. The distance isn't that relevant, she'd already be going pretty fast feet first compared to Anakin's belly flop. Just give this up, its an idiotic argument and you're embarrassing yourself.



Aryn struggled and injured herself. Anakin did it casually and didn't injure himself. Not sure how you're defining "failure" but the point was never that she "failed", lol.



Lmfao those are literally the same thing.



There's no evidence the car bounces, and that would be trivial compared to the aforementioned acceleration anyway.



Already addressed this. You are seriously arguing that levitating a human sized object is a better "excuse" than getting hit by an 80 mph airspeeder.

I don't see why you're so adamant about refusing to accept that Anakin did better here. He had tougher circumstances, he didn't get injured, Aryn did. You're better off pointing out that Anakin being better at one thing doesn't mean he's better across the board than pretending the two demonstrations are comparable.

Originally posted by The Ellimist


Aryn struggled and injured herself. Anakin did it casually and didn't injure himself. Not sure how you're defining "failure" but the point was never that she "failed", lol.

Like I said, she completely stopped her momentum to hang in mid-air. Its totally different from just taking the impact. Anakin didn't do remotely the same thing, so its stupid to compare the two. She succeeded in performing the feat to a greater degree than he did. She minorly injured herself from the fall afterwards which she doesn't use the force for. If you want to argue that she made a bad call by attempting a more difficult task than he did then do so, but I think you'll find that I don't care.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmfao those are literally the same thing.

No need to get pissy just because you were wrong. Anakin landing on something is different from getting hit by a moving object. Anakin can control his own momentum so that he isn't hitting with the same force as in the latter scenario.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's no evidence the car bounces, and that would be trivial compared to the aforementioned acceleration anyway.

You mean.... other than watching the scene and seeing the car bounce? Lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Already addressed this. You are seriously arguing that levitating a human sized object is a better "excuse" than getting hit by an 80 mph airspeeder.

I don't see why you're so adamant about refusing to accept that Anakin did better here. He had tougher circumstances, he didn't get injured, Aryn did. You're better off pointing out that Anakin being better at one thing doesn't mean he's better across the board than pretending the two demonstrations are comparable.

She isn't levitating them, she has to stop their momentum without hurting them. Lifting a human sized object is different from stopping two moving at terminal velocity without injuring anything.

Because its a retarded argument that keeps getting brought up in spite of never having an ounce of merit. There simply isn't a valid comparison. And there's no need for me to point out what's readily apparent to everyone, although I appreciate you admitting to your own arguments idiocy.

You didn't address my last point either. Since the impact has been proven negligible and the other aspects are irrelevant, this discussion should be over.

Do you have the passage and/or some keywords I can use to search for it? Do not currently have the novel with me and would rather not skim through the entire ebook preview.

Theres a respect thread. My version is too annoying to paste into a browser.

https://media.giphy.com/media/2pjspMQCi70k/giphy.gif

If ILS proves that Malgus > Vader does Ant have to put him in the title of the super thread?

*clap clap* Nice job backtracking from Aryn Leneer, given that Aryn's only scaling from Kao is their respective performances against Malgus...but then at that point given that Malgus is the person you're trying to quantify here you should've just started off with Kao.

Does being a battlemaster require you to be the second best Jedi of your generation? Obviously not since most of the most powerful Jedi of an era tend to not choose to become battlemasters (e.g. Yoda/Mace/Obi Wan vs. Cin Drallig). So becoming a battlemaster is incredibly impressive, but not on the level of being second out of all apprentices in the Jedi Order.

The problem here is that people may zero in on the word "apprentice" while ignoring the fact that Ferus isn't an apprentice when he faces Vader. The fact that he was a great apprentice relative to his peers is a good indication of his potential because it adjusts for experience, and comes from a highly credible source (Obi Wan).



So your response to my claim that your feat can't be quantified is to just rhetorically ask me to do it for you? Seriously?



Yes, you do digress - I accept your concession since you didn't actually respond to what you were quoting. I take it you drop that argument then.



Says the person who went on a huge Bane wank trail, which largely focused on RoT feats, and then admitted he's never even read RoT? Lol ok.



Do you actually have a meaningful rebuttal to make?



If Vader weren't particularly powerful why would he be in awe of him? LMFAO

In either case it's absurd to dismiss two independent accolades from seasoned veterans (and a third if you count Nick on Vader >>> Vastor) just because they all fumble up because they're in "awe" of him. You're palpably grasping at straws.



One of the best Jedi in the Order never once saw any of the Jedi he regularly interacted with fight seriously, and was just utterly delusional about everyone's abilities?

Again, you're grasping at straws. Witness testimony is certainly meaningful evidence if it is from multiple credible sources, and here we have three combat veterans (Nick, Jax, Ferus), two of which were Jedi, one of which was the best Jedi in the whole Order, clearly contradicting your notions of Vader's lack of power.

Or does Vader have some sort of telepathic field that makes several independent sources vastly overestimate his power? Is it his scary mask?



No, you misread me. I said Vader doesn't have the same combat ability or Force mastery as either of those two.

Regardless, whether Jax is right about Vader > Yoda in raw power is beside the point. For Jax to at least think that, Vader can't be, say, dramatically weaker than the B-team or Cin Drallig, or else you'd have to conclude that Ferus, one of the best Jedi of the Order, was delusional and clueless about everyone's abilities, which makes absolutely no sense.

Analogy: if Luke sees a building and in the text guesses it's 700 meters high but turns out it wasn't, that doesn't mean it's plausible that it's 10 meters tall lol.



Good thing you only shaft this objection into a single dependent clause because I doubt you'd actually have the technical knowledge to meaningful engage with or analyze it.



Lol, after calling my feat ambiguous, this is the best you can come up with?

Let's look at the unquantified info in that comparison:

1. The thrust of a ~1 BBY tie fighter vs. the thrust of a ship much larger...but literally >4,000 years more primitive. Given that in the few decades between TCW and ANH almost all of the Republic fleet's ships had become obsolete, and by LotF even imperial era tech was considered "ancient hardware" by Caedus.

2. Whether thrusters "whining" means that the ship is slowing down, when it just implies that they're straining themselves more than usual (physics 101 lesson: the acceleration of the ship can decrease without the velocity decreasing).

3. How fast and far away Starkiller's tie fighter is vs. how fast and far away the Razor is by the time they are being pulled, given that the Razor from the context that you provided seemed to still be inside some sort of structure while it's unclear how far away Starkiller's tie fighter was.

4. Whether Vader allowed Starkiller to escape, given that other Legends material reveals that the events of TFU II were at least in part a test for the dark apprentice.

So no, not nearly as clear.

Now, apparently you are trying to boast about responding to arguments by calling them "stupid" and then deleting them from your reply, and justifying your assertions with such wonderful elaborations as "yes, yes he is". To which I suppose your trolling has been pretty 10/10 hilarious.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
*clap clap* Nice job backtracking from Aryn Leneer, given that Aryn's only scaling from Kao is their respective performances against Malgus...but then at that point given that Malgus is the person you're trying to quantify here you should've just started off with Kao.

Does being a battlemaster require you to be the second best Jedi of your generation? Obviously not since most of the most powerful Jedi of an era tend to not choose to become battlemasters (e.g. Yoda/Mace/Obi Wan vs. Cin Drallig). So becoming a battlemaster is incredibly impressive, but not on the level of being second out of all apprentices in the Jedi Order.

The problem here is that people may zero in on the word "apprentice" while ignoring the fact that Ferus isn't an apprentice when he faces Vader. The fact that he was a great apprentice relative to his peers is a good indication of his potential because it adjusts for experience, and comes from a highly credible source (Obi Wan).



So your response to my claim that your feat can't be quantified is to just rhetorically ask me to do it for you? Seriously?



Yes, you do digress - I accept your concession since you didn't actually respond to what you were quoting. I take it you drop that argument then.



Says the person who went on a huge Bane wank trail, which largely focused on RoT feats, and then admitted he's never even read RoT? Lol ok.



Do you actually have a meaningful rebuttal to make?



If Vader weren't particularly powerful why would he be in awe of him? LMFAO

In either case it's absurd to dismiss two independent accolades from seasoned veterans (and a third if you count Nick on Vader >>> Vastor) just because they all fumble up because they're in "awe" of him. You're palpably grasping at straws.



One of the best Jedi in the Order never once saw any of the Jedi he regularly interacted with fight seriously, and was just utterly delusional about everyone's abilities?

Again, you're grasping at straws. Witness testimony is certainly meaningful evidence if it is from multiple credible sources, and here we have three combat veterans (Nick, Jax, Ferus), two of which were Jedi, one of which was the best Jedi in the whole Order, clearly contradicting your notions of Vader's lack of power.

Or does Vader have some sort of telepathic field that makes several independent sources vastly overestimate his power? Is it his scary mask?



No, you misread me. I said Vader doesn't have the same combat ability or Force mastery as either of those two.

Regardless, whether Jax is right about Vader > Yoda in raw power is beside the point. For Jax to at least think that, Vader can't be, say, dramatically weaker than the B-team or Cin Drallig, or else you'd have to conclude that Ferus, one of the best Jedi of the Order, was delusional and clueless about everyone's abilities, which makes absolutely no sense.

Analogy: if Luke sees a building and in the text guesses it's 700 meters high but turns out it wasn't, that doesn't mean it's plausible that it's 10 meters tall lol.



Good thing you only shaft this objection into a single dependent clause because I doubt you'd actually have the technical knowledge to meaningful engage with or analyze it.



Lol, after calling my feat ambiguous, this is the best you can come up with?

Let's look at the unquantified info in that comparison:

1. The thrust of a ~1 BBY tie fighter vs. the thrust of a ship much larger...but literally >4,000 years more primitive. Given that in the few decades between TCW and ANH almost all of the Republic fleet's ships had become obsolete, and by LotF even imperial era tech was considered "ancient hardware" by Caedus.

2. Whether thrusters "whining" means that the ship is slowing down, when it just implies that they're straining themselves more than usual (physics 101 lesson: the acceleration of the ship can decrease without the velocity decreasing).

3. How fast and far away Starkiller's tie fighter is vs. how fast and far away the Razor is by the time they are being pulled, given that the Razor from the context that you provided seemed to still be inside some sort of structure while it's unclear how far away Starkiller's tie fighter was.

4. Whether Vader allowed Starkiller to escape, given that other Legends material reveals that the events of TFU II were at least in part a test for the dark apprentice.

So no, not nearly as clear.

Now, apparently you are trying to boast about responding to arguments by calling them "stupid" and then deleting them from your reply, and justifying your assertions with such wonderful elaborations as "yes, yes he is". To which I suppose your trolling has been pretty 10/10 hilarious.

Adding to the list for the thrusters,

5. The fact that more pro-Vader assumptions better reconciles with evidence from the same plot given that Starkiller can blast apart frigates and ragdoll several hundred meter long Tantive IV's, but doesn't just ragdoll Vader, who according to you is like millions of times less powerful.

its almost as if tfu is wildly inconsistent or something

lul that coming from the tor wanker

Mmm, I think TOR is fairly consistent.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Adding to the list for the thrusters,

5. The fact that more pro-Vader assumptions better reconciles with evidence from the same plot given that Starkiller can blast apart frigates and ragdoll several hundred meter long Tantive IV's, but doesn't just ragdoll Vader, who according to you is like millions of times less powerful.

^ also, typo: Ferus wasn't "the best Jedi in the whole order", he was one of the best (obviously).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mmm, I think TOR is fairly consistent.

What about on Taris when 'Thor couldn't lift 2 people at once, yet 1 minute later she threw a huge chunk of metal like it's nothing? Or the Shitlander being unable to beat a couple of Skytroopers with the help of Havok Squad, but can fight Arcann alone?

And these are just the 1st 2 that came to mind.

To summarize my reply from the last page (clarifying just in case ILS skips to this page):

The mental gymnastics are pretty clear: apparently Jax Pavan suddenly loses his ability to sense Force presences, Ferus Olin loses his ability to judge combat speed despite being one of the most gifted Jedi in the Order, and Nick forgets all about Kar Vastor's power despite fighting alongside him for decades, right when they encounter Vader.

If you aren't deliberately trying to contort things to lowball Vader, you would reasonably look at three independent, highly credible witnesses and go "yeah they're saying the same thing , they're probably right".

Ah, the spacecraft thing. Give me a moment, okay? I will explain the technical details shortly, within an hour or like.

Okay, so for starters, TIE Fighter and any dropship are completely impossible to compare in terms of their engine power. "4000 years of tech development" is really simplifying it too much, I'll explain you why, guys.

Dropship is so immensely larger than a starfighter it can't really be described. We don't need to know the specific details of this one dropship, they are too different in their build as a whole. All of the dropships are by nature far larger than starfighters. They're designed to carry entire squads of troops to dump onto the battlefield, the entire forces. Not just one guy in a cockpit using the armament of the ship itself. Do not mistake a dropship with stuff like LAAT gunships from Clone Wars - no, dropship is designed to carry those inside and transport the forces to the ground or other ships.

One of the smallest dropships you can find in Legends is Imperial Dropship Transport. It carries: 2 missile launchers and 4 cannons, 18 troopers. Even this dropship, one of the smallest, is 3 times as wide as the TIE Fighter, and 2.5 times as long. And it's really one of the smallest you can find, guys.

So we come to the obvious. Energy of the dropship's movement is far greater; the power the engines need to propel the dropship into the air is immensely larger than that needed to propel a far smaller starfighter.

The argument of "4000 years of tech development" really doesn't make sense here. It makes sense when we talk about the quality of shields, armament and this kind of stuff, but as far as atmospheric flight goes, there's no difference. TIE Fighter's maximum atmospheric speed is 1200 km/h. You guys know these starfighters from KotOR, the S-250 Chela, from Lehon battle and Telos battle? Their maximum atmospheric speed is... 1200 km/h as well. So, the only way for the energy output of the moving object (and equally the force of engines) of TIE Fighter to be better would be if the metals its made of were insanely more dense.

But this wouldn't really add up. TIE Fighters are the lightest starfighters you can get. They lack life support systems. They lack deflector shields. They lack hyperdrive. They only have the cockpit and armament. They are the lightest and simplest starfighters ever made, designed to be produced in hordes.

So what we have here is the lightest starfighter possible versus a dropship, an entirely different class of several times heavier machines... with no differences across the ages made in atmospheric speed reachable for the engines of spacecraft... really no comparison guys. Malgus was fighting an obviously levels higher pull.

Not interfering with the debate, do with this stuff what you want to, just wanted to repair the oversimplification, since you stepped into my lawn.

Originally posted by JKBart
The argument of "4000 years of tech development" really doesn't make sense here. It makes sense when we talk about the quality of shields, armament and this kind of stuff, but as far as atmospheric flight goes, there's no difference. TIE Fighter's maximum atmospheric speed is 1200 km/h. You guys know these starfighters from KotOR, the S-250 Chela, from Lehon battle and Telos battle? Their maximum atmospheric speed is... 1200 km/h as well. So, the only way for the energy output of the moving object (and equally the force of engines) of TIE Fighter to be better would be if the metals its made of were insanely more dense.

Nope. The only remotely plausible reasons for the ludicrously contradictory acceleration and max atmospheric speed figures (3,000 g's acceleration but only 1200 km/h max speed? WTF?) would have to do with some specific interaction limitations between the fighters and the atmosphere - unlikely to be stress-related because if they can handle thousands of g's of acceleration air resistance is a trivial addition, so it might be some sort of safety mechanism, maneuverability limitation, or something else.

That means nothing with respect to the tie fighter's thrust given that it clearly isn't moving anywhere near said top speed and Starkiller is trying to escape Vader's grasp, so he's not really going to be worried about any of the other stuff.

The other option is to take Leland Chee's decree that Saxton's ICS's, written by an astrophysicist, take precedent with respect to such calculations over the wild ramblings of authors who pulled random figures out of their asses.

(This also doesn't address the other ambiguities in comparing the two feats, not that you were trying to)

elim seems to be winning but tbh, getting in such a long debate with someone who's obviously just ****ing with you is kinda an l

The data is clear, the maximum speed they are set to reach in an atmospheric flight is 1200 km/h for both. Even if the limitation comes from security measures (I agree, it should be because of manual impossibility for the pilot to retain control at speeds higher than that), the limitation is there and means engines can't go above this specific limit of power. So their power is limited within the atmosphere at this specific cap either way, and this limit remained the same throughout the ages. Engines from both these times can't go above this specific power. So in terms of atmospheric flight, given no difference in the cap of 4000 BBY starfighter and TIE Fighter, dropship from TOR era is equally more powerful in its pull than the ancient starfighter and TIE Fighter, if both are locked at the same cap, and dropship is just several times heavier.

On the other hand, I guess you could potentially say that the safety mechanism capping it at 1200km/h just stops the ability to speed up when the meter reaches this speed, but it would just be far more logical, solid, and safe to limit the general power of the engine itself so that - including the atmospheres' densities, and the weight of the spacecraft - it's locked at the power allowing max 1200km/h. Otherwise you could easily have starfighters momentarily reaching suicide speeds if the pilot is fighting some kind of tractor beam and stuff like that.

So i'm still definitely holding the TOR's dropship's pull as > TIE Fighter tbh.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
elim seems to be winning but tbh, getting in such a long debate with someone who's obviously just ****ing with you is kinda an l

i dont care, i'm here just for the starship stuff

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
elim seems to be winning but tbh, getting in such a long debate with someone who's obviously just ****ing with you is kinda an l

Well it gets boring when there's almost no opposition to the PT brigade anymore and the forum seems pretty dead. Though I guess I should take that time to be productive irl

Originally posted by JKBart
On the other hand, I guess you could potentially say that the safety mechanism capping it at 1200km/h just stops the ability to speed up when the meter reaches this speed, but it would just be far more logical, solid, and safe to limit the general power of the engine itself so that - including the atmospheres' densities, and the weight of the spacecraft - it's locked at the power allowing max 1200km/h. Otherwise you could easily have starfighters momentarily reaching suicide speeds if the pilot is fighting some kind of tractor beam and stuff like that.


How would that be suicide speeds? If I'm trying to escape a tractor beam (aka Vader's TK) I'm not going to care about the safety mechanisms like maneuverability or whatever unless if I'm aiming right at a hard surface or something (but it appears as though the tie fighter was in the direction of the sky). Likewise, given that these fighters' computers are precise enough to drop out of hyperspace within like a few hundred meters of a particular target (<<<< nanosecond reaction times) it shouldn't be too difficult for it to precisely track when its thrusters are being counteracted and when they're not for when the safety mechanism should lock on.

Of course OOU most sourcebook authors didn't know what they were talking about and we're trying to come up with convoluted explanations on their behalf.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nope. The only remotely plausible reasons for the ludicrously contradictory acceleration and max atmospheric speed figures (3,000 g's acceleration but only 1200 km/h max speed? WTF?) would have to do with some specific interaction limitations between the fighters and the atmosphere - unlikely to be stress-related because if they can handle thousands of g's of acceleration air resistance is a trivial addition, so it might be some sort of safety mechanism, maneuverability limitation, or something else.

Elm, forgive my intrusion, but you seem to be slightly bewildered. Wookiepedia states the atmospheric speed of the Tie is 1200 km/h. But, this is not corroborated by any source which mentions the vessel. The Tie's max speed is stated in both The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and Starships of the Galaxy (Saga Edition). Both sources claim that the max velocity of the tie fighter is 1200 km/h. Notice, how the word atmospheric is not used nor implied in either statement.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PIaExIQ-Gic/Wp4iWEX3D9I/AAAAAAAAE3E/Y_srFKXo3Zo_DmQ6oqlgjniC5hVglv5vQCL0BGAYYCw/h53/2018-03-05.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yezG17YdkhU/Wp4iXs3TJqI/AAAAAAAAE3E/FhqW_RRZmZ8oJ5Na60_HZWHyCxrqWOorgCL0BGAYYCw/h33/2018-03-05.png213122022901184109


Originally posted by The Ellimist
(3,000 g's acceleration but only 1200 km/h max speed? WTF?)

Notice, how the acceleration is mentioned alongside the speed in the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. (The G's are also higher in the image, so much for your physics.)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How would that be suicide speeds? If I'm trying to escape a tractor beam (aka Vader's TK) I'm not going to care about the safety mechanisms like maneuverability or whatever unless if I'm aiming right at a hard surface or something (but it appears as though the tie fighter was in the direction of the sky). Likewise, given that these fighters' computers are precise enough to drop out of hyperspace within like a few hundred meters of a particular target (<<<< nanosecond reaction times) it shouldn't be too difficult for it to precisely track when its thrusters are being counteracted and when they're not for when the safety mechanism should lock on.

Where has it been stated in any source ever that the Tie Fighter has hidden reserves which supply SO much energy that it surpasses the massive dropship? I also find it cute that you would assume that the Tie Fighter has safety mechanisms. The Tie Fighter has no combat shields, hyperdrive, life-support systems, or oxygen during ejections. Most Tie pilots considered the tie to be a suicide machine which prioritizes speed over all else. The empire prided themselves on the affordability of the ships. But go ahead and keep squirming.

It's what he does best. Destruction imminent.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Elm, forgive my intrusion, but you seem to be slightly bewildered. Wookiepedia states the atmospheric speed of the Tie is 1200 km/h. But, this is not corroborated by any source which mentions the vessel. The Tie's max speed is stated in both The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and Starships of the Galaxy (Saga Edition). Both sources claim that the max velocity of the tie fighter is 1200 km/h. Notice, how the word atmospheric is not used nor implied in either statement.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-We1wfpMhSWM/UOSqQ6BwApI/AAAAAAAAENM/VE7aCgGFzK0/s1600/christian-bale-wtf.gif

And just what, exactly, is a "maximum velocity" in a vacuum supposed to be, dare tell me? Maximum velocity relative to what? The non-existent ether? The only speed limit in space is c, lmfao. You could say that this is the maximum delta a tie fighter could achieve with its fuel, but that's implausible because in ANH we see X-wings circumnavigate the gas giant Yavin in like ~2 minutes, which would require a change in velocity astronomically greater than 1200 kph (among numerous examples). Nor is it plausible that a tie fighter can't reach speeds that a modern fighter jet casually can.

Rather, the "atmospheric" qualifier is:

1. Aligned with figures for other vehicles that use the "atmospheric" qualifier, which is also problematic but at least not totally incoherent.

2. In either case a better-than-nothing rationalization for an otherwise meaningless term.

3. It's literally an RPG mechanic that creates a constant speed to avoid having to deal with the mathematics of accelerating bodies in a vacuum, lmfao.



...

1200 mph = 536 meters / second, which at the 4100 g's listed the tie fighter would reach in about a tenth of a second. What happens then? Do the engines magically die out because they hit 1200 mph relative to an imaginary absolute reference frame?

BTW, concession accepted, because the relevant figure here is thrust, not "maximum velocity", and you just demonstrated that the engines of a tie fighter can generate the thrust needed to accelerate it by 4,100 g's, which is insane. Whether it then reaches a "maximum velocity" is irrelevant.




You literally have no idea what you're talking about. If there are no safety mechanisms then that's a point in my favor, because that means that Starkiller would have been able to access the 4,100 g's. Likewise, you have absolutely no metric with which to conclude that it's unfeasible given the tech base for the tie fighter to supply "SO much energy" over 4,000+ years of technological progress. If you want to do an actual analysis, be my guest - but you are obviously totally incapable of grasping even the most basic of physics and literally argued against your own case by noting the acceleration figures and then shooting down the possibility of a safety mechanism.

Literally one of the most embarrassing arguments I've ever seen. 0/10, go back to struggling with pre-calculus.

Anyway, on further discussion DarthSkywalker0 appears to agree that the 1200 mph figure is wrong.

Lmao. From Sith Lords we got to starships.

Cool sig ILS

https://img-s1.onedio.com/id-556c1ef3b0cb91bb1944584c/rev-0/w-500/s-83d9360f2287907c9f81d4e4d7a9e399fa764204.jpg

That last part was fvcking brutal.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/24874/1760300-12.jpg

If you can't figure out how technological progress would affect power generation and engine thrust abilities, I can't help you.



Yeah, keep feigning incredulity over the notion that 4,000+ years isn't enough time for a multi-fold increase in power generation / thrust abilities, given that in the few decades between TPM and ANH we see such multi order of magnitude improvements (the Death Star's peak reactor reactor output scales far, far above what it should be proportional to its volume vs. say, an Acclamator).

Occam's razor, the technicalities of which you certainly do not grasp, certainly does not suggest that most of the span of modern civilization would have a negligible impact on a society that obsoletes its tech in a few decades.



And once again, you vaguely dismiss arguments that laid out specific justifications (e.g. the incongruence between your interpretation of the event and Vader's feats just days later) with veiled ad hominems and smartass retorts, but no actual rebuttal. I'll take that as a concession.

LMFAO. Andy on the ropes. Regurgitating a repeated point while ignoring everything else.

an slaughter timing

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LMFAO. Andy on the ropes. Regurgitating a repeated point while ignoring everything else.

ILS, take him home.

It's almost as if ILS ignored "everything else" because he wanted to talk about this one first. mmm

Except ILS plans to respond to everything else, whereas you have already ignored the entirety of his above post.

So is everyone ok with Revan > Malgus > Vader now?


(Outlander > Revan also seems popular)

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except ILS plans to respond to everything else, whereas you have already ignored the entirety of his above post.

mmm It's almost as if ILS has done the exact same thing (cutting stuff from his reply) numerous times throughout this discussion. But I know your eyes glazed over when the technical details came down, so this is all you can say lmfao.

In either case, if ILS cannot compare their engine thrusts, the burden of which is on him given that it's his feat, all the other points are irrelevant. Not that vaguely dismissing two of my points as "conjecture" without actually responding to the specific arguments is any better than deleting them.

Holy sh*t, this has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. If you can dismiss the concept of "technology progresses in a setting where we explicitly see technology progress" because "thay spaze wezards!" then how the hell are you able to quantify a feat dependent on comparative engine thrust?

Remember that the burden of proof is on you to quantify this feat. Saying that we should "assume" that engine thrust abilities remain relatively constant over 4,000 years makes about as much sense as me finding a bad feat of pre-teen Malgus to lowball him.



The fact that you don't see the relationship between thrust and reactor power betrays your utter ignorance of all things technical (and reliance on smartassery to mask that fact). Even if you weren't as ignorant about any meaningful real life subject outside of Darth Maul as you are, you should've recognized the absurdity of dismissing on incredulity the notion that engine thrust would upgrade when a huge span of several other related technologies did.



Ah, yes - when I point out that ragdolling Tantive IV's is out of proportion to not TK'ing a tie fighter under the conditions you claim, you vaguely dismiss it as "squirming".

Here's another lesson for you: if one comes to a set of possible answers {A, B}, and answer choice A is corroborated by several independent avenues of reasoning, all other things being equal you would prefer answer choice A.

Once again you are utterly ignorant about the subject matter relevant to your own feat, utterly incapable of not committing really basic logical fallacies (like your circular reasoning blunder re: Aryn Leneer and Cao), so you resort to posting zero-substance gifs and "clever" redirections (e.g. you bring up that Anakin >> Vader as a major point, I ask why that matters, you respond with some bizarre tangent about another debate, and then just ignore the question).

10/10 troll, 0/10 argument, so nice job.

Vader is getting burried right before my very eyes, lmao.

Heel!ILS has nigh-unmatched roasting skill.

I like how Sheevites eat each other. Lmao

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I like how Sheevites eat each other. Lmao
time to feast, my friend

>Ne-Yo lyrics

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
>Ne-Yo lyrics
he murdered foxx, yes

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader is getting burried right before my very eyes, lmao.

Heel!ILS has nigh-unmatched roasting skill. Yeno, when AP publicised their dishonesty, lack of integrity and unparalleled self-delusion, it wasn't the characters being represented that were buried; it was the debater. I find it worrisome that the likes of Ellimist are permitted to commit identical debating atrocities without receiving half the amount of backlash. At least for my part, I intend to remain consistent in my ridicule.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
elim seems to be winning but tbh, getting in such a long debate with someone who's obviously just ****ing with you is kinda an l
Elim, come on now, do that IRL shit u said u had to do.

Props to ILS though, realizing he couldn't hope to beat the likes of carthage, he joined them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The mental gymnastics are pretty clear: apparently Jax Pavan suddenly loses his ability to sense Force presences, Ferus Olin loses his ability to judge combat speed despite being one of the most gifted Jedi in the Order, and Nick forgets all about Kar Vastor's power despite fighting alongside him for decades, right when they encounter Vader.

Just saw this --

-- it's interesting the three Vader quotes are all from the same author.

I'm not particularly interested in getting into that point until the debate, but all else aside, it is pretty obvious the author's take on Vader is inconsistent with the lore.

This is Vader two months after ROTS we're talking about.

Are we talking about 19 BBY Vader here?

I was about to agree with Ellimist but yeah I don't think 19 BBY Vader would do well against those guys under any decent author. Didn't he get his ass handed to him by some naked Jedi in the comic recently?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think 19 BBY Vader would do well against those guys under any decent author

#HolisticIntent

#thevastmajorityofhisfeatscircathattimeperiod

If only you had stayed with Sheev, Skillz

My issue here is with what ant said: There is absolutely conflicting intent between authors on Vader's capabilities, and unlike with Luke, we can't really say Vader was holding back or what have you when it comes to his low, (really around this time period, average) showings. If it were up to me, it would make more sense that Vader was a relative feeb circa 19-17 BBY, then became more of a monster as he adapted to his suit, gained more knowledge from the most powerful sith of all time, natural growth, etc. By TFU, he's worlds away from where he was at this time period.

It's more than Vader just "not steamrolling" random nobodies, it's more that he's genuinely struggling mightily against random nobodies. And as you said, the preponderance of evidence is against Vader, whereas only one author is hyping up Vader to be supreme circa 19-17 BBY, and it's not even through feats, but opinions/statements.

Now, I'm not one to believe that character opinions/statements are invalid or hyper-easily fallible, quite the opposite. But to me, this is comparable to like, Corran Horn believing Kun to be as or more powerful than Luke Skywalker, despite knowing Luke has redoubled in power after his conflict with the Reborn Emperor, and yet we universally accept that even TPM Palpatine absolutely shits on Kun.

Meanwhile, baby Malgus is literally butchering the Battlemaster of the jedi order by getting a little pissed off. Similar to 17 BBY Vader -----> TFU Vader, Malgus is worlds away from Return/Hope/even mid Deceived compared to the end of Deceived.

I also think there's a bifurcation between peak Vader and peak ROTS Anakin.

Whereas, Malgus has been straight killing it for 20+ years straight, taking out one highly decorated prodigy after another, regardless of who is on their best day at the time.

Leaving you with no option but to declare that Kao Cen, Satele Shan, Ven Zallow and Aryn Leneer are all at worst nobodies and at best lesser than "amateur" Force wielders with a degree of nascent natural talent.

I'd feel pretty silly wearing those shoes, myself, but hey, they seem to fit you. Expect a full response sometime soon.

I completely agree that it strains credulity to think that all three sources are wrong, but that's what happens when you have so many authors writing a character: contradictions occur. Explicit evidence from actual fights Vader partakes in (the vast, vast majority, if not ALL of them circa 19-17 BBY,) don't paint Vader as a worldbeater by any stretch of the imagination.

This type of thing happens in comics all the time as well: one or more authors will paint Galactus ass a multiversal threat through statements (and even sometimes feats,) but the vast, vast majority of authors and statements put him at universal. Which one do you choose? IMO, the more consistent one.

1. Sure, but via showings, he lacks the ability to tap into that raw power to such an extent that he struggles with random nobodies 9.9 times out of 10.

2. Sure, but you'd have to show an inconsistency in terms of feats for Vader circa 19-17 BBY, because from where I'm standing, they're consistently "bad" (relatively speaking).

That's the thing...What exactly is high-end early Vader? We've seen it with Luke, but I don't think there's been much fluctuation in terms of Vader being "shit" or "not shit."

Pretty sure the only thing I'm tapdancing around (more accurately, on) is your corpse.

Cringe

What is this mess that i've stumbled into.

-

Originally posted by The Ellimist
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-We1wfpMhSWM/UOSqQ6BwApI/AAAAAAAAENM/VE7aCgGFzK0/s1600/christian-bale-wtf.gif

And just what, exactly, is a "maximum velocity" in a vacuum supposed to be, dare tell me? Maximum velocity relative to what? The non-existent ether? The only speed limit in space is c, lmfao. You could say that this is the maximum delta a tie fighter could achieve with its fuel, but that's implausible because in ANH we see X-wings circumnavigate the gas giant Yavin in like ~2 minutes, which would require a change in velocity astronomically greater than 1200 kph (among numerous examples). Nor is it plausible that a tie fighter can't reach speeds that a modern fighter jet casually can.

Rather, the "atmospheric" qualifier is:

1. Aligned with figures for other vehicles that use the "atmospheric" qualifier, which is also problematic but at least not totally incoherent.

2. In either case a better-than-nothing rationalization for an otherwise meaningless term.

3. It's literally an RPG mechanic that creates a constant speed to avoid having to deal with the mathematics of accelerating bodies in a vacuum, lmfao.


1.Tie Fighters are launched off of Star Destroyers. Our anchoring point upon which to measure velocity would be said Star Destroyer.

2. It is in no way possible that the quotes in question are referencing atmospheric speed. This is because Tie Fighters are launched from space and in the case of the Essential Guide it is providing a technical profile.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MbLD0UXJOmw/Wp408yrNBOI/AAAAAAAAE3g/WDFHCDSqkSEcPrz4tYjt75rDw97My5hoQCL0BGAYYCw/h686/2018-03-05.png

Do you think this is referencing atmospheric speed? mmm In addition, I was not just using the RPG quote to substantiate my view. It is the least valuable out of the two sources mentioned. I am perfectly willing to admit the quotes in question are wrong, however, it is evident that they are not in reference to the atmosphere.

Originally posted by The Ellimist

... no expression

1200 mph = 536 meters / second, which at the 4100 g's listed the tie fighter would reach in about a tenth of a second. What happens then? Do the engines magically die out because they hit 1200 mph relative to an imaginary absolute reference frame?

BTW, concession accepted, because the relevant figure here is thrust, not "maximum velocity", and you just demonstrated that the engines of a tie fighter can generate the thrust needed to accelerate it by 4,100 g's, which is insane. Whether it then reaches a "maximum velocity" is irrelevant.

Wait, wut?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MPfyjgZvXNA/Wp8vjLPjFvI/AAAAAAAAE4E/hgwLTu9FXlgBtipiuOD8NiEbUjkr1jupACL0BGAYYCw/h490/2018-03-06.jpg

You just wasted 541 characters countering a point I never made. The only reason I mentioned the difference in G's was to show how the information given in The Essential Guide is wildly incongruent with physics in real life.



Originally posted by The Ellimist
You literally have no idea what you're talking about. If there are no safety mechanisms then that's a point in my favor, because that means that Starkiller would have been able to access the 4,100 g's. Likewise, you have absolutely no metric with which to conclude that it's unfeasible given the tech base for the tie fighter to supply "SO much energy" over 4,000+ years of technological progress. If you want to do an actual analysis, be my guest - but you are obviously totally incapable of grasping even the most basic of physics and literally argued against your own case by noting the acceleration figures and then shooting down the possibility of a safety mechanism.



1. By mentioning the safety mechanisms, I was simply correcting your ignorance not making an argument.
2. I will leave the analysis for ILS.
3. I never made a case.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Literally one of the most embarrassing arguments I've ever seen. 0/10, go back to struggling with pre-calculus. thumb up

And you wonder about ILS's "strange" behavior.

P.S. My only real contention with your post was your mentioning of the safety mechanics and atmospheric speed(this being a problem created by Bart). But, you have done an excellent job prattling on.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-t38CZfMqtc0/Wp8zNsjehVI/AAAAAAAAE4Q/E2C64g72xPc3pfDIgk5ptuaR1Uyd-M1HgCL0BGAYYCw/h142/2018-03-06.jpg

Incorrect:



^ you were clearly tying yourself to the overarching point, and now are trying to pretend that you were just jumping in to nitpick.



Then what is the anchoring point for said star destroyers, who also have listed velocities?

For those who are confused as to my point, there is no absolute reference frame in physics, and the only absolute speed limit is c (in the context of Star Wars this would obviously only apply to sublight propulsion).



Concession accepted, yes.



That point, which was Bart's interpretation, is the most trivial possible detail for you to try to declare victory on. Not that you're right, since as I said multiple similar sources relate it to atmospheric speed, but I don't have much interest in pursuing this conversation because it's not pertinent to my point.

Anyway, as we discussed privately no need to escalate this further.

"My only REAL contention with your post." REAL is not a synonym for ONLY.



I would assume they are orbiting a planet as they tend to do.



What are the similar sources referring too? You can tell me in pms if that is preferable.



When did I discount this point?

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
"My only REAL contention with your post." REAL is not a synonym for ONLY.

Dude you dedicated a whole paragraph to it, which was presumably important because it was what my points were actually about.



Not necessarily. Plenty of space battles happen outside of that context.



Well publicly I'll ask you why we should care about whether the source talks about atmospheric speed or whatever if we both agree that it's wrong. If your point is that I should've led with that instead vs. Bart, then sure.

One sentence does not equal one paragraph. Here is the paragraph in question:

"Where has it been stated in any source ever that the Tie Fighter has hidden reserves which supply SO much energy that it surpasses the massive dropship? I also find it cute that you would assume that the Tie Fighter has safety mechanisms. The Tie Fighter has no combat shields, hyperdrive, life-support systems, or oxygen during ejections. Most Tie pilots considered the tie to be a suicide machine which prioritizes speed over all else. The empire prided themselves on the affordability of the ships. But go ahead and keep squirming."




I assume when they are measuring the speed of a ship it is not in the midst of a space battle.



That is my point, yes. We can continue on PMs now.

Did it occur to anyone, that Starkiller might have also activated the sublight drive? Because that's usually activated when leaving a planet's atmosphere. Which according to the novel, he rocketed through the atmosphere, the clouds and the planetary shield generator. They keyword being rocket.

Though I'm not sure what this really has to do with anything, I'm just wondering.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Did it occur to anyone, that Starkiller might have also activated the sublight drive? Because that's usually activated when leaving a planet's atmosphere. Which according to the novel, he rocketed through the atmosphere, the clouds and the planetary shield generator. They keyword being rocket.

Though I'm not sure what this really has to do with anything, I'm just wondering.

awesome theory tbh

Yeah great idea Zenwolf

Originally posted by JKBart
awesome theory tbh

I mean it's not really a theory, if Starkiller was wanting to leave the planet as fast as possible, it would only make sense...plus this.



Generally, sublight drives are activated when one is wanting to leave the planet.



Given that Starkiller rocketed high into the atmosphere, it stands to reason that he would have engaged the Sublight drive, especially since when he got into the cockpit he started activating systems, which of course would include the Ion engines, which is with the Sublight drives being an independent system. I don't think he'd just stick to atmospheric travel if he's wanting to leave as quick as possible.

Not to mention it takes roughly 1-5 minutes from the surface of a planet to orbit. Which give the text, it seems that he achieved getting into space rather quickly.

Taking note the same with the Falcon in Tatooine during the escape with Luke and the droids.

The same with the X-wings on Yavin 4 when they went to attack the DS.

In both instances, these ships cleared the planets surface and got into space in no time flat.

But again, not sure why this one whole feat between the two here is the crux of...well who wins this, unless I've missed something.

How fast is a sublight drive, exactly? I checked the cutscene of the event in question:

https://youtu.be/zdDIt_1f3lM @10:20

Is that the drive or just the starfighter's thrust speed?

Originally posted by ILS
How fast is a sublight drive, exactly? I checked the cutscene of the event in question:

https://youtu.be/zdDIt_1f3lM @10:20

Is that the drive or just the starfighter's thrust speed?

I would wager it's the drive given how fast it's moving and then we see it in space right after. I can't imagine an atmospheric speeds of only 745 mph to easily clear the entire atmosphere and reach orbit that quickly. Given that rockets have to achieve a certain speed(which is far greater than 745 mph) to get out of the gravity of Earth in real life, it only makes sense.

That and the vast disparity of space travel speed and atmospheric speed. The only reason no pilot would just activate their sublight drives in atmosphere is because I guess, all the hazards that would go with it.

But then the game isn't exactly the novel as Vader isn't holding the fighter and just lets it go.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I would wager it's the drive given how fast it's moving and then we see it in space right after. I can't imagine an atmospheric speeds of only 745 mph to easily clear the entire atmosphere and reach orbit that quickly. Given that rockets have to achieve a certain speed(which is far greater than 745 mph) to get out of the gravity of Earth in real life, it only makes sense.

That and the vast disparity of space travel speed and atmospheric speed. The only reason no pilot would just activate their sublight drives in atmosphere is because I guess, all the hazards that would go with it.

But then the game isn't exactly the novel as Vader isn't holding the fighter and just lets it go.

To be truthful, it seems nigh impossible to gauge given sourcebooks inaccuracies.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
To be truthful, it seems nigh impossible to gauge given sourcebooks inaccuracies.

Getting a hard number? No probably not, but it's a safe bet it's greater than atmospheric speed. We see this with the Falcon on Mos Eisley and X-wings on Yavin 4 in ANH alone.

@Zen https://youtu.be/StxwZgp0fyA?t=7m57s

It doesn't look like it's going that fast, and there's a time skip between the time it reaches the clouds and space. More to the point, it wasn't going at a particularly insane speed when it broke Vader's grip, it only "rocketing" once it was past the clouds.

Much like Elm's fixation on the 4,000 year difference in tech, it would make sense on-paper for him to use the sublight drive, but I'm not sure if he actually did.

I don't really care about the comparison either way, as Malgus can stand on his own.

Originally posted by ILS
@Zen https://youtu.be/StxwZgp0fyA?t=7m57s

It doesn't look like it's going that fast, and there's a time skip between the time it reaches the clouds and space. More to the point, it wasn't going at a particularly insane speed when it broke Vader's grip, it only "rocketing" once it was past the clouds.

Much like Elm's fixation on the 4,000 year difference in tech, it would make sense on-paper for him to use the sublight drive, but I'm not sure if he actually did.

I don't really care about the comparison either way, as Malgus can stand on his own.

Yeah, there's no real way to tell if he actually did, but if he was wanting to get out as fast as possible then yeah.

Still as you said, I don't really care about the comparison either, I was just bringing up that possibility as well.

Anyway, carry on with this discussion or what have you in regards to the fight.

https://i.imgur.com/n7AwvHJ.gif

@ILS,



Yeah, and I'm saying this is a circular argument in its absolute purest form. <redacted elaboration for the sake of not derailing>

Anyway, the relevant part is the (independent) elaboration here:



Alright, so Deceived Malgus >>> Cao-beating Malgus. That's great although hardly an argument unique to Malgus.

For example, you can joke and mock Vader for struggling against Jax Pavon...around 19 BBY, two years before this fight is taking place (in 17 BBY). Or Roan Shryne in 18 BBY, ignoring the part where Vader experiences this after his victory:



Honestly that sounds like an even more profound "epiphany" boost than what Malgus experiences, especially given that Vader would still remember the power of Anakin Skywalker and does not appear to be thinking "OMG I AM NOW AS POWERFUL AS AGEN KOLAR!", and I would be surprised if this random Roan Shryne were the only fight where Vader experiences it.

You might retort that Malgus has decades to advance and Vader only has 1-2. But even though his potential is nowhere near Anakin's, Vader still has a far higher ceiling than Malgus, a claim that I don't think you seriously dispute and will wait for objection before expending energy on the full case (though below some points will be discussed). You are comparing the growth rate of someone who, IMHO, could have rivaled Plagueis at the minimum at full potential to someone who at full potential would still get oneshot by Tenebrous's master's master's master. Likewise, as Vader has already gotten a taste of powers far beyond that as Anakin, his "catching up" growth rate is likely to be greater than someone unlocking higher levels of power for the first time.

So it's actually not clear that Malgus would advance more post-Cao to Deceived than Vader would post-Ferus Olin.

(Also, the Dark Woman fight is pretty commonly misunderstood, but I will once again only expend energy if you actually make that point)



It's a predictive variable that shifts the expectation of Ferus's abilities. As with in everything outside of pure logic/mathematics, we're dealing with probabilities - and given that potential and adult power are highly correlated, you would obviously factor that in if you were betting on adult Ferus's power.



So you're saying that Cao's position has more certainty but haven't disputed that it has less of an upside. Sounds like the comparison is ambiguous to me.

If Cao is like the 8th most gifted Jedi of his generation, that's a massive drop-off from second place. Through this stretches generations, think about any Jedi Order we've seen: the gap between the most powerful and fourth most powerful, or the second most powerful and the 8th most powerful, etc., pretty much gets into oneshot territory (Satele/Barsen vs... who? Anakin or Mace vs...Agen Kolar?)



Alright, speaking of squirming, this is where I think you get into the part of your post where you're just dismissing things for the sake of dismissing them. Character opinions may not be infallible, but that doesn't give you grounds to cast shade at them with no particular justification. Witness testimony, if properly framed, is taken seriously even in the court of law, and someone like Obi-Wan would certainly meet the bar of a qualified witness/expert.

I'm pretty sure that given how much everyone in the Order pontificates about Ferus's awesomeness, if there were an apprentice other than Anakin that was better than him, Obi Wan would have heard about it. The Order isn't that large and even if it were, you would expect who the best are to be pretty common knowledge, especially to someone like Kenobi, especially for something as relatively objective as Force ability.

Analogy: it's pretty common knowledge who the best athletes are in any really objective competition like track and field, the high jump, etc. It would be silly to think that a professional coach would just be utterly delusional about who the second best was, unless if the gaps were really small at the top (in which case your objection doesn't even matter).



You keep saying that these opinions are unreliable but have yet to explain why a prodigy Jedi, a fairly skilled Jedi Knight, and a hardened war veteran are all going to be coincidentally wrong.



Well, firstly Jax's opinion is based on sensing Vader's Force presence, so it's not really dependent on combat. I don't think everyone in the Jedi Order constantly suppresses their Force auras given that Force concealment is an active power and not trivial to just keep up indefinitely.

As for Ferus, I really find it doubtful that nobody in the PT Jedi Order ever goes all-out or close to all-out in training. That certainly doesn't map onto real life sparring - while they may not be trying to kill each other, we're talking about raw speed here, which with training sabers is unlikely to really threaten a rival Jedi. So while you may normally take things easily, you can bet your ass that when the likes of Windu and Dooku were having their sparring sessions they weren't always f*cking around (before Ferus's time, but you get the point). Indeed, the Jedi literally had dueling tournaments - with all this evidence the idea that Ferus was just a sheltered child who had no idea he was dealing with Gods is a little silly.



No, I don't think Jax Pavan would think Malgus's Force presence was more powerful than any he's ever met when he's walked around the Jedi Temple and met Yoda, etc., nor would Ferus have never seen anyone but Yoda move faster than him despite having been one of the most involved and connected young Jedi in an Order pretty dedicated to testing one another's combat abilities and with at least four, possibly up to a dozen combatants that could wreck Deceived! Malgus's shit.

I am open to being convinced that Malgus could win in a fight, but you should acknowledge that Vader is vastly more powerful at this point.

damn, the squirming intensifies