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Marvel combatants face off

Legion
Silver Surfer
Phoenix
Apocalypse

Vs.

Thor
Vision
Hela
Doctor Strange

*Strange has the Eye
*Thor is post Ragnarok
*David has his morals off
*Jean is composite

Who wins

Hmmm... I honestly can't call this. Both teams have some pretty big hax on their side. You have things like the Eye on team 2, but then you have Legion on team 1, who has messed around with time before as well, on top of the other grab bag of abilities he has. Then you have characters with insane healing factors, that needed plot elements to lose, like Hela and Apoc. And that's not even getting into all the other powers a lot of these guys have that are somewhat broken.

I'm going to go with Fox team 7-8/10, Vision is going to be the biggestg problem on team 2 in my opinion but There's enough Psychics to deal with that and the Surfer who seems to have a similar powered but amped up

Originally posted by McNasty996
I'm going to go with Fox team 7-8/10, Vision is going to be the biggestg problem on team 2 in my opinion but There's enough Psychics to deal with that and the Surfer who seems to have a similar powered but amped up

Surfer could easily handle Vision, Power Cosmic is more then enough to overcome one of the weaker infinity stones.

Im tired of this idea here that "oh strange wins endless time loop." That means he loses to

Dont know why people dont understand that.

I still wonder how mutant telepathy would react to something like the Mind Stone, and how it would affect alien beings. I mean we saw that Asgardians can be affected by at least some forms of telepathy (such as when Wanda messed with Thor's head during AoU), but not sure if mutant powers would work the same. I don't think we can say either way for sure, really. But if it did, Legion could probably start some Astral Plane shenanigans. Dr Strange is a human though, so he's fair game.

I'd say Team MCU because Strange can bfr them to the Dark Dimension with Dormammu, or trap them in the Mirror Dimension, or trap them in a time loop. None of the FOX characters have dealt with magic as of yet.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I'd say Team MCU because Strange can bfr them to the Dark Dimension with Dormammu, or trap them in the Mirror Dimension, or trap them in a time loop. None of the FOX characters have dealt with magic as of yet.

Originally posted by Blindside12
Im tired of this idea here that "oh strange wins endless time loop." That means he loses to

Dont know why people dont understand that.

With the Time Gem, MCU wins.

The infinity stones are above anything the X Men verse have shown. They get wrecked.

Apparently Blindside doesn't understand how time works. Even if they lose, Strange reverses time, cancelling the loss as it now never happened. And he can do it infinitely.

Even if they become aware of it, it still never happened.

Originally posted by Blindside12


Strange could also decide to age them all until they die....Not only time loops.

lol.

My main issue with the Strange and Time gem issue is that it takes time to set up (Kascilius came close to stabbing him in the heart before it kicked in).

That amount of time while negligible in a longer battle is alot longer than the Psychics need to freeze or drag them to the Astral Realm where strange is the only who's who's proven to be able to do something and he can't use the gem there.

And Legion has proven to be able to teleport between the Astral realm and the real world so there's also a chance he could teleport everyone back from the Mirror Dimension if Strange goes that route(just a theory)

Originally posted by McNasty996
My main issue with the Strange and Time gem issue is that it takes time to set up(Kascilius came close to stabbing him in the heart before it kicked in).

That amount of time while negligible in a longer battle is alot longer than the Psychics need to freeze or drag them to the Astral Realm where strange is the only who's who's proven to be able to do something and he can't use the gem there.

And Legion has proven to be able to teleport between the Astral realm and the real world so there's also a chance he could teleport everyone back from the Mirror Dimension if Strange goes that route(just a theory)

Why shouldn't the gem work there??

Originally posted by McNasty996
And Legion has proven to be able to teleport between the Astral realm and the real world so there's also a chance he could teleport everyone back from the Mirror Dimension if Strange goes that route(just a theory)

Legion is kind of a wildcard here, because even towards the end of S1 he was only beginning to tap into his full power.

Also, he seemingly has extremely fast reactions/perception, as he was able to catch multiple machine gun bullets, while his back was turned, after he pulled everyone from the astral plane the one time. Either that, or he altered reality to put them in his hand.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Why shouldn't the gem work there??

I think that it would work, my issue with it is Strange having the time/concentration to pull it off in a battle full of people who quickdraw their abilities

EDIT: Sorry, I read that wrong. I believe that in the movie strange couldn't interact with Physical Objects only interact with others in the realm or have things effect him from the outside(the shock from the Paddles)

And I agree with Vault in that Legion is I need the Wildcard, we don't really know all he can do and based on his few showings(The 2nd episode where he turns the dorrs in walls) he either is an extremely skilled Matter Manipulator or a low scale reality warped(again just a theory) but the implication is huge

How good is Phoenix's telepathy? Could she just shut down the MCU team like Xavier does humans?

Also, even if Strange reverses time, couldn't Phoenix just peruse his mind to learn what he learned from the previous encounter?

Hes so far beyond her, he one shotted galactus without two fcks given.

Originally posted by Blindside12
Hes so far beyond her, he one shotted galactus without two fcks given.

If it was the comics Galactus i'd be impressed. But vaporizing a cloud of isn't a hell of a feat to trully make him superior to Hela.

Should we make a Hela vs Galactus thread?

Originally posted by Blindside12
Should we make a Hela vs Galactus thread?

Nahh, too little feats from Galactus for him to even compete. Also, I remember correctly the Surfer was able to be contained in the end.

Thats not exactly how it happened, they developed a tachyon generator that Hela will not have access to.

Originally posted by Blindside12
Thats not exactly how it happened, they developed a tachyon generator that Hela will not have access to.

I doubt that could stop Hela.

Also, I wonder if Vision could hack the Surfer's mind.....

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander


Well i doubt Strange would be their first target considering Hela and Thor being such a big threat.

Strange only needs a couple of seconds to summon it, then they are all screwed.

Fox has little to no chances here.

The thing is that Team 1s abilities aren't targeted, it all all AOE(matter man up and Disnetagration that happens on a very large scale around them). They just need to activate and all Bella breaks loose while Hela Thor and Vision have to pick their targets.

I watched the clip and it's about 10-12 Seconds for the time stop to kick in. Not a lot but on the quick draw especially with Psychics that not garunteed.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I doubt that could stop Hela.

Also, I wonder if Vision could hack the Surfer's mind.....

Im not saying that could stop Hela, that is what they used to stop Surfer temporarily. She wont have access to that tech.

Originally posted by Blindside12
Im not saying that could stop Hela, that is what they used to stop Surfer temporarily. She wont have access to that tech.

No...But i don't see the Surfer being able to destroy her neither...Unless he decides to suicide himself which would kill his own team in the way.

Also as I said before, Galactus was a cloud, not a solid manifestation. That blast doesn't necessarily is as threatening as it seems, considering Earth was nearby it should have been affected too.

Originally posted by McNasty996
The thing is that Team 1s abilities aren't targeted, it all all AOE(matter man up and Disnetagration that happens on a very large scale around them). They just need to activate and all Bella breaks loose while Hela Thor and Vision have to pick their targets.

I watched the clip and it's about 10-12 Seconds for the time stop to kick in. Not a lot but on the quick draw especially with Psychics that not garunteed.

I don't know, i just thing the Time Stone is too much for them. You've also got to remember Vision's Mind Gem which would likely be able to hack into anyone's minds.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I don't know, i just thing the Time Stone is too much for them. You've also got to remember Vision's Mind Gem which would likely be able to hack into anyone's minds.

If it gets activated yeah it's a game over but you have to get it there and it's Team MCU only chance at victory. If anything comes his way hes got now way to endure it(his shields arent that useful beyond projectiles), all of Team Fox is AOE and pretty powerful at that)

And Vision has the mind gem but hasn't done anything beyond firing an energy been.

A big part of how effective they are is knowing how house them, Strange just got lucky that his came with instructions.

Originally posted by McNasty996
If it gets activated yeah it's a game over but you have to get it there and it's Team MCU only chance at victory. If anything comes his way hes got now way to endure it(his shields arent that useful beyond projectiles), all of Team Fox is AOE and pretty powerful at that)

And Vision has the mind gem but hasn't done anything beyond firing an energy been.

A big part of how effective they are is knowing how house them, Strange just got lucky that his came with instructions.


Actually they were able to withstand a full blast from Dormammu. Furthermore, isn't like Fox has prep time to actually know the danger the Time Stone represents.

He was able to break into Ultron's mind. Also, it's the same Mind Gem Loki used to hack Hawkeye. It should be able work just the same.

I feel like a serious Legion should be able to scratch his ear and have half of team 2 embedded in the other half. The show has barely scratched what he can do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I feel like a serious Legion should be able to scratch his ear and have half of team 2 embedded in the other half. The show has barely scratched what he can do.

Yeah Legion's powers are certainly a threat. But i think Hela would impale him before he can actually do something.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Actually they were able to withstand a full blast from Dormammu. Furthermore, isn't like Fox has prep time to actually know the danger the Time Stone represents.

He was able to break into Ultron's mind. Also, it's the same Mind Gem Loki used to hack Hawkeye. It should be able work just the same.

They were able to do so barely and he had to manually block them as they came. And they don't need it, all abilities are instantaneous and do alot of damage very quickly.

At the same time Strange isn't likely to go to the gem immediately. He did so as a last resort after assessing that the battle was essentially lost and accepting it as a long shot.

The gem needed physical contact to do so and all the receptor was made specifically to do that. Vision broke Ultrons net access, we don't know if it was the gem or hos status as a true A.I.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yeah Legion's powers are certainly a threat. But i think Hela would impale him before he can actually do something.

I think he could just turn the spike into steam before it hit him. Machine guns couldn't do shit to him (and I think we all know how OP they were in Ragnarok) and he could just pull off that stopped time bs if things got bad.

Whats to stop him from immediately mind-raping everyone except Vision?

I meant 2:50, not 0:50 but edit is broken.

God that's so ****ing stupid.

Isn't like i doubt the blast being powerful, but there is no real scale to measure it.

If Galactus would have been a physical body then we could argue that it was powerful enough to wrip Galactus appart or some sort of thing like that, but dispersing dust isn't something you can use to actually scale an explosion.

Ask Vision for help?

Isn't Surfer useless if you knock him off his board?

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Isn't Surfer useless if you knock him off his board?

No, you need to cut/disrupt his access to the board via some quantum plot device tech thingie they came up with.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay, we are just debating on earthly numbers as if the explosion was a normal one.

Hela wouldn't be able to hurt him. But nor would the Surfer UNLESS he decides to go nuke, which would result in his team dying along with him.

Also, there is no evidence that the surfer is immune to Vision's Mind Gem. We saw the surfer feeling energy blasts AKA Dr Doom's.

Vision's laser beams should be dangerous enough. Also, there is still Vision's mind-control abilities.

Well the surfer wouldn't die but his team would.

And there is still no evidence of Hela dying to Surtur's planetary attack. Also Vision would likely not get hurt.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I feel like a serious Legion should be able to scratch his ear and have half of team 2 embedded in the other half. The show has barely scratched what he can do.

I dunno about ear-scratching, but it looks like we might see David go HAM at some point in S2. Because the way they talk in the trailers, people seemingly aren't sure who the biggest threat actually is. Legion or Shadow King. Shadow King is batshit insane and evil, but the way they talk, Legion's power could destroy everything.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Isn't Surfer useless if you knock him off his board?

It's not that easy to do though. Physical force alone doesn't seem enough, at least based on what was shown onscreen. Reed and them needed a bunch of time and prep to build a set of devices to generate a tachyon pulse. They then needed to set them up in a perfect circle, and then lure the Surfer inside before triggering them. Which was also only possible due to the assistance of the US army, who lost several troops and vehicles in the process when they encountered the Surfer.

So yeah, these aren't exactly conditions that you can replicate during a random fight.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Thor's most powerful lightning.

That was pretty powerful but i doubt that was even in the megaton range. What did it destroy?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That was pretty powerful but i doubt that was even in the megaton range. What did it destroy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8fuqhGS-qc

I would like to know if Surfer could withstand such a blast... Not only it obliterated Odin's Keep. Which by the way, ain't made of earthly materials.

Such a blast is clearly above anything the Surfer took in F4 2.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Isn't Surfer useless if you knock him off his board?

Sorry but a tachyon pulse generator isn't so thing you pull out your ass. Tachyons even gave Dr. Manhattan trouble as they stopped him from seeing the future.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay, we are just debating on earthly numbers as if the explosion was a normal one.

Hela wouldn't be able to hurt him. But nor would the Surfer UNLESS he decides to go nuke, which would result in his team dying along with him.

Also, there is no evidence that the surfer is immune to Vision's Mind Gem. We saw the surfer feeling energy blasts AKA Dr Doom's.

Vision's laser beams should be dangerous enough. Also, there is still Vision's mind-control abilities.

Vision has never mind controlled anyone. Doom never hurt Surfer

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay, we are just debating on earthly numbers as if the explosion was a normal one.

Hela wouldn't be able to hurt him. But nor would the Surfer UNLESS he decides to go nuke, which would result in his team dying along with him.

Also, there is no evidence that the surfer is immune to Vision's Mind Gem. We saw the surfer feeling energy blasts AKA Dr Doom's.

Vision's laser beams should be dangerous enough. Also, there is still Vision's mind-control abilities.

No, he went far away from earth to neutralize galactus.

Regardless if think it was just smoke, which it wasn't, because smoke cant exist in space, it was how big its size relative to how big the earth was.

http://whatvinniethinks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Galactus.jpg

Originally posted by Blindside12
Vision has never mind controlled anyone. Doom never hurt Surfer

Vision mind-controled Ultron.

Vision's got the Mind Gem in his head, there is no evidence to claim he can't.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Vision mind-controled Ultron.

Vision's got the Mind Gem in his head, there is no evidence to claim he can't.

No he didn't, he severed his connection to the internet.

MvF rule states if it didn't happen on screen, it can't be used here.

Originally posted by Blindside12
No he didn't, he severed his connection to the internet.

MvF rule states if it didn't happen on screen, it can't be used here.

Which is basically hacking his mind...Lol.

The mind stone has control over anything sentient in the universe, that includes AI.


I remember seeing the Mind Stone hacking Hawkeye, which results to be the same gem Vision is carrying in his head. There is no evidence to say the mind stone doesn't work the same way.

An AI hacking another AI? Must be magic.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Which is basically hacking his mind...Lol.

The mind stone has control over anything sentient in the universe, that includes AI.


I remember seeing the Mind Stone hacking Hawkeye, which results to be the same gem Vision is carrying in his head. There is no evidence to say the mind stone doesn't work the same way.

No he used his AI to hack him.

There is no evidence to say Vision can mind control anyone the way the staff was rigged to do.

Originally posted by Blindside12
No he used his AI to hack him.

There is no evidence to say Vision can mind control anyone the way the staff was rigged to do.

No. All powers from Vision are derived from the Stone in his head. Which means he can use the stone to hack into other forms of intelligence/ other minds.

Except he already did, which is Ultron. And again, he possesses an infinity stone which results to be the mind stone.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. All powers from Vision are derived from the Stone in his head. Which means he can use the stone to hack into other forms of intelligence/ other minds.

Except he already did, which is Ultron. And again, he possesses an infinity stone which results to be the mind stone.

Incorrect, the gem powers his body, his AI / consciousness existed before hand as Jarvis.

I will get a mod ruling so we can move on.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not necessarily due to the fact that the explosion impacted him.

I mean, you can clearly notice that it is like if the Surfer is releasing energy from his body. Perhaps it was more of him getting depowered or drained that would represent a threat.

Also as I said before, this ain't a normal explosion. We can't really compare it with an Earthly one.

All the clips of that scene seem to be cut for the moment. But i clearly recall it stating that it was Thor's biggest/most powerful lightning.

By that Odin was trying to say that the hammer wasn't his source of power. Which means that by such point Thor didn't longer needed the hammer.

Thor is now independent of the hammer.


One way or another Hela received an impact that could rival Sokovia's with 0 damage. Also, there is no evidence the Surfer is immune to such levels of power.

Do you have any idea how small the Sokovia and Asgard blast was compared to the Surfer blast?

Your trying to compare a blast smaller then a portion of a small city to this:

http://whatvinniethinks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Galactus.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
An AI hacking another AI? Must be magic.



Well played.

Originally posted by Blindside12
Do you have any idea how small the Sokovia and Asgard blast was compared to the Surfer blast?

Your trying to compare a blast smaller then a portion of a small city to this:

http://whatvinniethinks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Galactus.jpg


If the impact would have damaged a planet or a moot at least i would recognize the feat. Yet it only dispersed/evaporized/destroyed dust/vapor/gas.


Again, i can't take such a feat, specially considering that Galactus has no durability feats.

We'll have to request mod rulings then on this as well.

Originally posted by Blindside12
We'll have to request mod rulings then on this as well.

If you wish.

^^ The irony of this is that Josh routinely accuses other posters of twisting feats and facts to suit them.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
^^ The irony of this is that Josh routinely accuses other posters of twisting feats and facts to suit them.

No, that's only you, Quanchi, Froth, and Silent.

Why can't you debate like Nibedicus? He is actually bringing evidence to back up his words.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
^^ The irony of this is that Josh routinely accuses other posters of twisting feats and facts to suit them.

Nibedicus:

See? That's how feats are brought. He actually brings numbers to counter my words. A nice debate!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Thanks! Me too. And i know, but am very skeptical when taking feats. I analyze the hole panorama before giving my opinion.

That explosion to me isn't normal, that's why i am skeptical to take it as a normal nuclear explosion for instance.

Edit: whole.

Surfer defeated a planet buster. Hela got defeated by a planet buster, while pawning a city city buster.

This isn't hard Josh.

Eeek. I double posted. Edit function is screwed up. O_O

Josh pls reply to second post, not the first one. First post formatting is screwed up plus added in some points on edited reply.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Eeek. I double posted. Edit function is screwed up. O_O

Josh pls reply to second post, not the first one. First post formatting is screwed up plus added in some points on edited reply.

I've noticed. LOL. Just have patience, i have a lot to read...

Originally posted by Blindside12
Surfer defeated a planet buster. Hela got defeated by a planet buster, while pawning a city city buster.

This isn't hard Josh.

It's hard when we atalking about the terrific F4 2. The movie was a massive production error. Starting by Galactus being a worm and ending in the Surfer somehow defeating him in a terrible end!...

I just have to process the evidence well before concluding.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. What i think it is? Well it is evidently Cosmic Energy being radiated out of Surfer's Body. Which is pretty reasonable, since Galactus' is the wearer of Cosmic Power, which is the energy which basically transformed the SS.


Considering that Galactus was weak, and basically a cloud of dust (He didn't had his armor like in the comics to protect him) the cosmic energy being radiated from the Surfer was mortal.

It's evidently it's cosmic energy being radiated. It would easily explain why the vaccum was created, and why that massive explosion. It would also explain why the surfer seemed to glow in his final moments.

Furthermore, the fact that the "explosion" didn't killed the surfer, since he was only radiating his powers and not really exploding.

If am right and this is Cosmic Energy, then Hela is likely screwed. But the problem is that the movie never even touched Galactus' background history, nor did they explained Cosmic Energy.

So basically it's just an assumption based on comics intel.

I concede the lightning's argument.

2. Did you watch the video???

The bomb Starfish Prime was able to create auroras and electromagnetic
pulses that affected earth.

Let's bring together your intel with mine

Starfish Prime Nuclear bomb:

Explosion: 1.2MT.
Distance: 400 KM

Based on your own statements and intel:

SS "Explosion":

Explosion:
Distance:


Let's do a bit of Math:

SS explosion detonated according to you 30,000 kms away, whilst my bomb exploted 400kms away, yet your bomb according to you and your tool was 4 billion MT!!!!!! Mine 1.2.

Basically your explosion is 13,000 MT strong per kilometer. Whilst mine is, 3*10^-3 MT per kilometer....

Do you really think earth wouldn't have felt it that was an explosion? Come on it isn't that hard to understand! Specially after seeing that the blast was able to send material that crossed through Earth.

Again, to me that isn't an explosion, or atleast not a nuclear one.

3. Let's settle the explosion/not explosion debate before continuing.

Edit: if that.


Damn, i hate when the edit button gets bugged.

Originally posted by FrothByte
How good is Phoenix's telepathy? Could she just shut down the MCU team like Xavier does humans?

Also, even if Strange reverses time, couldn't Phoenix just peruse his mind to learn what he learned from the previous encounter?

Good point. But she would likely get hacked by Vision. He still has the Mind Gem in his head, the same mind gem which hacked JARVIS and turned Hawk Eye into a puppet.

Also, returning time would return it previously to strange getting hacked...Don't you think?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Good point. But she would likely get hacked by Vision. He still has the Mind Gem in his head, the same mind gem which hacked JARVIS and turned Hawk Eye into a puppet.

Also, returning time would return it previously to strange getting hacked...Don't you think?

Visions one feat with the mind gym could arguably be tied back to him being a superior A.I. to Ultron and even then he headed direct contact just like any of the other times it's been used, it's always right up close(septor and Hawkeye/Headeadbutted Ultron). And even if he did there's still another Psychic on the team who's potentially more dangerous(David ).

Team MCUs chance seem to heavily rely on the gem which is something I don't see strange using right off the bat or being able to have the time to pull off. And rolling back time wouldn't undo whatevers done to Strang's mind since he'd be essentially stepping outside of time the moment it activated as his consciousness was.

Originally posted by McNasty996
Visions one feat with the mind gym could arguably be tied back to him being a superior A.I. to Ultron and even then he headed direct contact just like any of the other times it's been used, it's always right up close(septor and Hawkeye/Headeadbutted Ultron). And even if he did there's still another Psychic on the team who's potentially more dangerous(David ).

Team MCUs chance seem to heavily rely on the gem which is something I don't see strange using right off the bat or being able to have the time to pull off. And rolling back time wouldn't undo whatevers done to Strang's mind since he'd be essentially stepping outside of time the moment it activated as his consciousness was.

Clearly Vision grabs Ultron's head when he hacked it. Just like Loki had to touch with the Scepter Hawk Eye's chest. Clearly there is a connection.

A.I. derived from the Mind Gem. Both Ultron and Vision were creation of the Mind Stone.

David is very powerful i agree, but we are talking about an Infinity Stone here. The Mind Gem possesses control over all Sentient life under the Universal Scope, which includes David.

Still not as bad as Fant4stic.

What? Who didn't love a Dr Doom that looked like a Kryptonite crash-test dummy?

http://i0.wp.com/www.whatsageek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/fantastic-four-2015-dr-doom.jpg

Originally posted by Impediment
Still not as bad as Fant4stic.



OMG...Let's not bring those on board....

Surfer would roll over the MCU team by himself. He's laughably above everyone else here. He could potentially solo both teams.

Good grief, is every thread that goes beyond 2 posts nowadays going to get into theoretical math in order for people to prove a point?

Team Fox decimates here unless Strange gets to do his Time Gem shenanigans, and my money is on Jean atomizing him before he can take the time (no pun intended) to do so.

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Good grief, is every thread that goes beyond 2 posts nowadays going to get into theoretical math in order for people to prove a point?

Team Fox decimates here unless Strange gets to do his Time Gem shenanigans, and my money is on Jean atomizing him before he can take the time (no pun intended) to do so.

I see Hela impaling her first.