New Triumvirate power wank

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AncientPower
First, allow me to extrapolate on what makes the relevant quote so impressive.

After the Sacking of Coruscant, Aryn Leneer returns to occupied capital and senses this:



Whilst fighting Sith Sabers on Dromund Kaas, Luke Skywalker senses this:



This is stated to be the state of the Republic during the Dark Wars:



Essentially, the Triumvirate manufactured a dark-side miasma across the entire Republic.

NewGuy01
...through their actions, yes.

AncientPower
Which is still incredibly impressive.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by NewGuy01
...through their actions, yes.

thumb up

AncientPower
Why are both of you missing the point? I even said they manufactured it. The point being was that they were feeding off of a miasma fueled by the psychic energy of the entire Republic. It's pretty damn insane when you think about.

ILS
I suppose you have Krayt above the triumvirate then? Very nice.

AncientPower
Krayt didn't affect the Force. The Sith ruled more openly and vastly than they had since Revan's Empire, that's a big difference.

ILS
He absolutely did. The Dark Side was more dominant than it ever had been in history, and the misery was palpable all across the galaxy.

AncientPower
You realise that me and Ant uncovered the quote you're referring to? I know exactly what it says.

ILS
The quote can be found somewhere in here, along with other stuff:

https://imgur.com/a/eJu5E

One might even speculate Krayt himself had a hand in it, eh?

https://i.imgur.com/kVbE13M.png

ILS
These are the pertinent quotes:

https://i.imgur.com/rwyQGMk.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/7U543p6.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/G02AzSo.png

Alright everyone, show is over. Kneel before Darth Krayt.

AncientPower
Ah, some of that I was unaware of, honestly. All very impressive stuff. So Krayt Reborn > Emperor Krayt > DE Sheev?

ILS
thumb up Krayt was the embodiment of the Dark Side in a time where it's sway was unparalleled.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

lazybones
wizards of the coast strikes again laughing out loud

Haschwalth
Darth Revan level thumb up

The Ellimist
So the difference between these kinds of imbalances and the threat that Sidious posed is that by the end of TPM, Sidious was threatening the stability of the cosmic force through his mere existence even though he hadn't a fraction of the actual power and control of, say, Krayt or Revan/Malak. Likewise, prior to that Plagueis and Sidious unbalanced the Force through meditating on an island when neither of them were even among the five most politically powerful individuals in the galaxy.

So the first stages of the unbalance via Plagueis and Sidious's meditation was an act of raw willpower/exertion, the second stage was an act of influence over the source code of the Force, and the third was Palpatine just being really powerful. There's a clear distinction between this and the other Sith unbalancing the Force through fear and tyranny.

(This doesn't mean the OP isn't impressive, just adding this because some of you are making that comparison)

ILS
In all seriousness yes, Elm is correct. Plagueis and Sheev threw the Force out of balance more thoroughly than it ever had been before, not by hunting the Jedi to nigh-extinction and ruling the entire galaxy with an iron fist, committing genocide etc, but simply by meditating against the Force. Sheev embodied the dark side and maintained the shroud with his sheer power after Tenebrous, his master and Plagueis set the stage for him.

In contrast, in the case of Revan, the Triumvirate and Krayt, the Force fell out of balance and slanted toward the dark side because of the widespread death, misery and most importantly, the annihilation of the Jedi Order. This was no personal achievement on their part, it was an achievement of their respective empires.

Unbowed
Originally posted by ILS
In all seriousness yes, Elm is correct. Plagueis and Sheev threw the Force out of balance more thoroughly than it ever had been before, not by hunting the Jedi to nigh-extinction and ruling the entire galaxy with an iron fist, committing genocide etc, but simply by meditating against the Force. Sheev embodied the dark side and maintained the shroud with his sheer power after Tenebrous, his master and Plagueis set the stage for him.

In contrast, in the case of Revan, the Triumvirate and Krayt, the Force fell out of balance and slanted toward the dark side because of the widespread death, misery and most importantly, the annihilation of the Jedi Order. This was no personal achievement on their part, it was an achievement of their respective empires.
As impressive as Plagueis' feat was, the Clone Wars were responsible for the shroud of the Dark side. That was the whole reason for their existence.




Plagueis' ritual took place in 42 BBY, ten years before TPM. During all that time, for all of Plagueis' grandiose notions, the Jedi hadn't sensed anything wrong. Yet Yoda immediately senses something is terribly wrong at the end of AOTC.

And at the time of TPM Maul was already a powerful Dark Sider, yet the first thing he notices after Talzin heals him is that the Force is out of balance, and immediately figures out the cause.

The Ellimist

The Ellimist
Originally posted by The Ellimist
even though he hadn't a fraction of the actual power and control of, say, Krayt or Revan/Malak.

Obvious clarification: by power and control I mean politically

Unbowed
I'm not saying Plagueis' ritual didn't contribute to it, but the bulk of it was the Clone Wars. Maul knew the Force status quo at the time of TPM yet he immediately felt the difference when Talzin healed him.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Unbowed
I'm not saying Plagueis' ritual didn't contribute to it, but the bulk of it was the Clone Wars. Maul knew the Force status quo at the time of TPM yet he immediately felt the difference when Talzin healed him.

Well, I'm pretty sure Maul "died" before Sidious's ascension at the end of TPM. In either case there's enough evidence that the unbalance was enormous long before any shots were fired on Geonosis (which makes sense given that Yoda and Windu were noticing the effects pre-clone wars).

Unbowed
No, there isn't. IIRC Mace and Yoda have that conversation about their ability to use the Force being diminished after they find out they were unable to perceive the Clone Army being built.

But what's so special about that? The Jedi never see the Sith coming, in any era.

I suspect we're going to go round and round in circles since the details about the Chosen One prophecy were never clearly defined, nor was the "balance" it was supposed to bring about. Nor the involvement of the Ones.

If the prophecy is ancient then the "unbalance" in the Force is clearly not referring to Palpatine's machinations, since the Force waxed and waned throughout recorded history - and after Palpatine was killed. And if even the Father was aware of and interested in the prophecy, then it's clearly not about the Palpatine/ the Banite Sith, but something inherent to the nature of the Force.

On the other hand if we're to believe the Plagueis novel, then Anakin's birth was a direct consequence of Plagueis meddling with the midichlorians. It's the classic "mortal messes with the natural order out of hubris/divine retribution follows" motif.

Either way Sheev doesn't have jack shit to do with it.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Unbowed
No, there isn't. IIRC Mace and Yoda have that conversation about their ability to use the Force being diminished after they find out they were unable to perceive the Clone Army being built.

Nah, if you watch the scene again it's clear they've been thinking about it for some time ("I think it's time we inform the senate our ability to use the force has diminished", "only the dark lord of the sith knows of our weakness..."wink



But they never make it a major plot point that they're long-term foresight is impaired.



The prophecy was originally to replace the Father and stop Plagueis's midichlorian manipulation (the second being the most immediate trigger). When the latter died and the former didn't work out, it still served the purpose of re-balancing the Force through the defeat of Palpatine, given that sources have confirmed that Anakin did indeed fulfill it.



But not to the extent that Sidious was a threat in RotJ.



Why?



Except that he does. It's been confirmed that the death of Sidious fulfilled the prophecy, a fact clearly corroborated by Sidious's unbalancing of it by EoTPM.

FreshestSlice
Think the Chosen One prophecy has a lot more with the destruction of the Sith than necessarily killing Palpatine.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Think the Chosen One prophecy has a lot more with the destruction of the Sith than necessarily killing Palpatine.

Perhaps that was the original intent, but it doesn't seem to be the case in Legends given that it was created in direct response to Plagueis, and given that the Sith survived RotJ.

FreshestSlice
Well, since in Legends the Force doesn't go out of balance when Palpatine comes back to life, multiple times, nor did it revert back to normal the other times he mentioned he died, nothing really supports the notion that Palpatine dying within itself is required for anything.

ILS
The Father, much like the Jedi of old, foresaw the creation of the Chosen One. To what end they could only speculate; the Jedi believed he would bring balance to the Force, and the Father took that to mean he would replace him as the ruler of Mortis, preventing his children from tearing apart the fabric of the universe.

However, in Legends it's very much the case that Anakin was birthed by Plagueis' actions, either directly or indirectly. In Canon, nowhere is it said to my knowledge that Anakin's purpose is necessarily to replace the Father. It just so happens that Anakin, a being of pure Force energy, is strong enough to replace the Father, because while the Ones are godlike, they appear to just be extremely powerful Force users.

He doesn't necessarily have a set purpose, only one that people prescribe for him. And it does seem like killing Sidious is what returned balance to the Force. Whether that's because Sidious personally was upsetting the balance or because he was carrying on the Sith, I'm not sure. It's more likely because the far-reaching consequences of his actions, all the death and suffering he caused, was knocking the Force out of whack.

AncientPower
ILS, your quotes clearly state the dark side of the Force had never been stronger than under Krayt. That includes any imbalance by Plagueis and Sheev.

Deronn_solo
The Chosen One prophecy works well within the context of Canon.

It only gets murky when you throw in Legends, imo.

ILS
Originally posted by AncientPower
ILS, your quotes clearly state the dark side of the Force had never been stronger than under Krayt. That includes any imbalance by Plagueis and Sheev. Yep.

AncientPower
In Canon it's outright confirmed to be Anakin's destiny, Mortis that is. Him rejecting it leaves the galaxy out of balance. The Ones only made the situation even worse. The novel is irrelevant here.

ILS
Where is it confirmed?

FreshestSlice
Lel, didn't the Father say Anakin brought Balance to Mortis anyway? That sounds more like Legends nonsense.

The Ellimist
Read the prologue of the Plagueis novel again. The imbalance of the cosmic Force is very directly and causally linked to Palpatine's Force power; not his rise to Chancellorship, not the corruption and decay of the Republic, but his raw strength in the Force. It seems pretty clear to me.

Deronn_solo
Given that it was stated Sidious' first "death" aboard the Death Star allowed Anakin to fulfill it's prophecy, it's seems pretty clear to me that it was more than just Palpatine's power that caused the imbalance.

Or else, the balance would have been immediattely throw out of the wack the minute he returned, and only got stronger as he further increased his power in the events leading to DE.

I'd say his grip on the galaxy, in conjunction with his Force abilities is what caused the imbalance to be as profound as it was. Hence, why his first Death restored it because his political grip of the galaxy had gone and the Jedi Order was to begin anew.

AncientPower
Firstly, Plagueis himself corroborates it:



Then the Father himself outright states it:



Then there's the Databank:

AncientPower
Oh and, this entire arc was written by Lucas himself, incase anybody wants to point to earlier statements about Anakin's destiny.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Given that it was stated Sidious' first "death" aboard the Death Star
Again, the Death Star wasn't the first time Sidious died.

Deronn_solo
I thought Sidious was bullshitting when he said Endor wasn't his only death.

FreshestSlice
No. Around the end of ANH was the the first time, iirc.

Ursumeles
Pretty sure Chee said that he was bullshitting.

Deronn_solo
When and how did he die?

Lmao.

Ninja'd.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Or else, the balance would have been immediattely throw out of the wack the minute he returned,

Pretty sure it was, though I don't have the quote on me.

DarthSkywalker0
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Pretty sure Chee said that he was bullshitting.

He did.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Pretty sure Chee said that he was bullshitting.
He's not the only one who brings it up.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He's not the only one who brings it up.

Mind expanding with a source?

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Pretty sure it was, though I don't have the quote on me.

If true, wouldn't that outright nulify Anakin fulfilling the Chosen One prophecy, something that he was stated by sources and Lucas himself to achieve?

Lmao.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
If true, wouldn't that outright nulify Anakin fulfilling the Chosen One prophecy, something that he was stated by sources and Lucas himself to achieve?


OOU, yes, we all know that the Sith existing post-RotJ is problematic.

IU though, Palpatine ended up getting defeated by Anakin's children, so his prophecy lives on in a sense.

Galan007
The intent of DE itself was that Palpatine had died multiple times before the events of RotJ:
https://i.imgur.com/b56WAcI.jpg


However, Chee seemingly 'retconned' that concept in a response on the Dark Horse Comics Battleboard:

Zentrex
ILS, what's that source?

Descension?

Star Wars Role Playing Game?

Force and Destiny?

Azronger
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Given that it was stated Sidious' first "death" aboard the Death Star allowed Anakin to fulfill it's prophecy, it's seems pretty clear to me that it was more than just Palpatine's power that caused the imbalance.

Or else, the balance would have been immediattely throw out of the wack the minute he returned, and only got stronger as he further increased his power in the events leading to DE.

I'd say his grip on the galaxy, in conjunction with his Force abilities is what caused the imbalance to be as profound as it was. Hence, why his first Death restored it because his political grip of the galaxy had gone and the Jedi Order was to begin anew.

Except that the imbalance of the Force returned just as Palpatine did, and grew stronger throughout DE. Flex that brain a bit, and you might remember.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640230.html

Deronn_solo
On the contrary sweetheart, I remember that clearly.

Now, mind pointing to me where it's stated the Force was severely out of balance, after Palpatine's return? You've established the presence of the dark side was strong upon Sidious return--which is fair, I've proudly admitted Sids' power played a part in initial disparity of the Force--but that hardly speaks of cosmological imbalance.

Neither does it exactly tie-in with sources that acknowledge DE, yet state Palpatine's death aboard the second Death Star ultimately restored balance to the Force and said nothing about it's return upon his 'rebirth'.

Nephthys
Yeah, some dude saying the darkside was getting stronger doesn't mean the Force was unbalanced. erm

The Force waxes and wanes with the darkside all the time. Big deal.

Freedon Nadd
Sith Triumvirate (Kreia, Sion, Nihilus)?

AncientPower
Yes.

Freedon Nadd
Wasn't Nihilus a walking Force Imbalance, though?

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