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-Both characters are in their prime
-Legends
-All out fight to the death

Who wins?

Windu dominates.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Windu dominates.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Windu dominates.

Kun dominates without Vaapad interference.

Mace would not get nearly enough of a boost from Vaapad fighting someone of Kun's level. He'd just dominate all on his own.

No he wouldn't, Kun's displayed far greater Force feats and has enough saber skill to hold his own in a duel.

I take it you have Kun > RotS Sidious, then.

By the way: he never beat Vodo through skill; he just broke his Forcestaff.

AP is the only one still holding Kun in that high of regard.

Kun's fall has been glorious, ngl.

I agree with AP.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/mshckd.gif

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kun's fall has been glorious, ngl.

I find it funny guys like AP use quotes for Kun that was written before characters were even conceived -- to deflect the current status quo.

i mean, a lot of people do that

Originally posted by NewGuy01
i mean, a lot of people do that

Originally posted by NewGuy01
i mean, a lot of people do that

Using the quotes within itself isn't the problem; the way it's used in regards to get around the Malak excerpt, however, is.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Using the quotes within itself isn't the problem; the way it's used in regards to get around the Malak excerpt, however, is.

If it's the "darkest power in the galaxy" quote, that in no way necessarily means "most powerful darkness in the galaxy."

I take it that you also concede Vader ~ Yoda and Vader > Anakin. Because the same source claims that too.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If it's the "darkest power in the galaxy" quote, that in no way necessarily means "most powerful darkness in the galaxy."

Given that it states immediately after that, that he 'walks away with something that will make him even stronger', it certainly does mean that.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I take it that you also concede Vader ~ Yoda and Vader > Anakin. Because the same source claims that too.
Is there something inherently wrong with these claims outside of them not matching up with your opinion?

Given Vader was never equating ROTS Sheev in power and that it's a fact on every level that Anakin > Vader, yeah there's a mighty big problem.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Given Vader was never equating ROTS Sheev in power and that it's a fact on every level that Anakin > Vader, yeah there's a mighty big problem.

Please provide the quote and was it approved by Leland or simply an RPG stat.

Windu decent fight.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I take it that you also concede Vader ~ Yoda and Vader > Anakin. Because the same source claims that too.

Pretty sure the quotes you're referring to were strictly rpg mechanics.

I mean, honestly, this is no greater a source than, for example, the blurb on the Darth Plagueis novel. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that a novel stated to be the most important published Star Wars material to date, is on a vastly higher level of authenticity than any Wizards article. Yet this novel wasn't just maintained by someone like Leland Chee, it went through the desk of none other than George Lucas before the stamp of approval. Yet Chee insists such statements are subjective in nature.

Now unless you want to go about arguing that a Wizards supplement has any form of greater viability to stand on its own two feet than the most carefully crafted work in all of Star Wars Expanded Universe history, then I imagine my point here is crystal clear.

More importantly, being published under a LucasFilm Ltd. banner does nothing to ascertain a level of infallibility on the point of those who wrote it. I say this because, if we're taking stuff such as that into account, one must come to the conclusion that a quote from the likes of Tom Veitch, or that a statement in Jedi Academy depicting Kun as a Sidious tier threat, is of just as great an import as anything Cory wrote in his web supplement.

Though instead of riding the fences of what is or isn't reliable in a medium that has long since been kicked to the curb, I'd simply remind people of this quote:



This is a quote in 2008 stating that Exar Kun was once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith. Now this doesn't mean that he was the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith up until he died, it means he was the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith up until a point where another Dark Lord surpassed him in power.

Who also makes an appearance in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia? You guessed it, Darth Malak. Malak on the Star Forge is directly referenced too. The only Sith in that book definitively placed over Kun is Sheev. Almost seems like that was a direct ratification of the quote naming Kun GOAT among Sith. Yet literally only Sheev is placed above him in said retcon.

Don't even get me started on how Traya in the Trayus Core factors in with all of this.

Malak is not far more powerful than Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Geistalt
I take it you have Kun > RotS Sidious, then.

By the way: he never beat Vodo through skill; he just broke his Forcestaff.

He's stated to have never stood a chance. If he could've competed with Kun in skill then he would've had a chance.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This is a quote in 2008 stating that Exar Kun was once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith. Now this doesn't mean that he was the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith up until he died, it means he was the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith up until a point where another Dark Lord surpassed him in power.

Which, according to Wizards of the Coast, was some 40 years later.

Yeah, no. The statement was from 2004 at best. TCSWE clearly doesn't place Malak above Exar Kun, and does in fact have only Sidious above Exar Kun.

Furthermore, we have the fact that Malachor V is demonstratably even stronger than the Star Forge, specifically the Trayus Core. Traya is quite evidently much more powerful than Malak. Yet we know Traya is definitively less powerful than the more prominent ancient Sith. All of whom are canonically inferior to Exar Kun, and arguably Marka Ragnos.

I'd also argue that the quote isn't exactly definitive in it's wording. Everybody seems to entertain the idea that when Muur's claimed to have powers that outshined Krayt's; it refers to techniques. This quote could quite possibly refer to the powers Malak and Revan uncovered, such as draining techniques and abilities naturally harnessed upon mastery of the Star Forge.

Mace stomps him.

TBH; Exar Kun is more powerful than Mace Windu, and might contend with the Jedi Master on his terms as in utilize his Sith Sorcery abilities to defeat his opponent.

Unless Kun fight Windu on the latter's terms, I am not sure how Windu would prevail.

What sorcery could Kun utilise that would even phase Windu?

Spirit-rending lightning, corrupting his lightsaber, incinerating him from the inside out. All the things he taught Kyp, essentially. It's also pretty clear he has many other techniques. Let's not start with Force blasts.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yeah, no. The statement was from 2004 at best. TCSWE clearly doesn't place Malak above Exar Kun, and does in fact have only Sidious above Exar Kun.

Not how it works.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I find it funny guys like AP use quotes for Kun that was written before characters were even conceived -- to deflect the current status quo.

So, we disregard most of Palpatine's accolades, then?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not how it works.

There's a dozen arguments against Malak and they stack-up very nicely.

Of course, you'll see it that way.

To someone with no emotional investment in neither character, the Malak quote is as clear as stated.

I mean all the "powers" Malak displayed while amped by the star forge were either matched/surpassed by Exar Kun's weekend spirit on Korriban Yavin, getting stomped by Revan aside.

So what powers are we talking about that are far greater than Kun or Nadds?

I mean unless we're talking about trivial "powers", such his ability to build ships and assault droids of the Sith fleet with aid of the star forge.

That could be one possible explanation of the quote. Otherwise we're left with:

Draining some defenceless random Jedi
Force choking a pair of random Jedi
Killing a random Jeid with lighting
loosing to Revan

All while their own power is supposedly weaker thanks to the environment they're in. All feats that Spirit!Kun can achieve on his own. It looks like the ship and weaponry building function is the only possible explanation for the difference. Because in all manners of combative power Kun pretty much puts Malak on his ass, star forge or not.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Of course, you'll see it that way.

To someone with no emotional investment in neither character, the Malak quote is as clear as stated.

No, not at all. The quote is massively contradictory to Kun's canonical status from OOU and IU sources as a Sheev tier Sith in Force power. To ignore that is egregious at best.

Malak's stated to have been given far greater powers, plural. These powers could be, but aren't limited to, the unique giga-draining technique that others of the time had learned. Furthermore, the Star Forge afforded him the ability to extend his longevity indefinitely.

Beyond that, we know that Darth Traya was powered by a 'colossal geyser' of dark side energy. On a nexus that is demonstratably far more corruptive and lethal than anything we've seen the Star Forge display. Thus she empowered by the Trayus Core, would be even more powerful than Malak. Yet by every comparison, Traya is not as powerful as some of the strongest Ancient Sith Lords such as Naga Sadow, Tulak Hord, Ajunta Pall, and obviously the strongest amongst them, Marka Ragnos. All inferior sorcerers to Freedon Nadd, which given the stance on sorcery, can easily translate to power. Nadd, who is himself far inferior to Exar Kun in everything.

The most likely interpretation of a quote that is otherwise problematic, is the most logical stance to take. No emotional investment is required at all to arrive at these conclusions.

KoTOR game does not portray Force powers of a character in an awe-inspiring manner. Darth Malak might have become a Force-wizard on Star Forge after learning to harness its power to his advantage.

It's stated that it was Malak's cybernetic jaw and life support systems that gave him "powers far beyond Kun's" or whatever... That's stupid, tbh. And while it "falls under the Legends banner" and it is licensed by LucasArts, so is Tag and Bink.

So... Malak is > Kun and Plagueis destroyed Krypton. I'm fine with that, actually.

Originally posted by MythLord
It's stated that it was Malak's cybernetic jaw and life support systems that gave him "powers far beyond Kun's" or whatever... That's stupid, tbh.

No, it doesn't say that. It says that cybernetic enhancement is a possible explanation for Malak's powers that far surpass Exar Kun's, but in-context, the source is clearly hinting that the actual culprit is something else, i.e. the Star Forge.

The quote alludes to Malak's cybernetic jaw being a simple explanation for powers greater than Exar Kun. A hilarious notion.

Anyway as the term isn't singular - "power" it can indeed be interpreted in various ways, and of course, this is exactly what the guys at LFL would agree with. The powers Malak exhibited on the star forge that are greater than Kun's amounts to the ability to construct his amada from the ground up and maybe the ability to revive himself form other Jedi. Kun stomps in all conventional force wielding categories. Even if we're comparing SF Malak to the weakest possible incarnation of Kun. In fact even when the temples that were tethering his spirit were destroyed, Exar still was seeking out better feats than Star Forge Malak.

Windu wins this. Interesting fight tbh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, it doesn't say that. It says that cybernetic enhancement is a possible explanation for Malak's powers that far surpass Exar Kun's, but in-context, the source is clearly hinting that the actual culprit is something else, i.e. the Star Forge. I'll never get tired of this quote going over people's heads, kek.

AP's interpretation has some merit imo.

I never thought I'd ever say it, but yeah her/his/its(?) interpretation does have some merit. The intent of the quote, however, is pretty clear though - amped Malak is greater than Exar Kun, due to the influence of the Star Forge.

The question if the "far greater powers" are actually a linear correspondence of "far greater force power", is up to debate, though.

That's how I see it, tbh.

Kun stomps SF Malak Tbh

probably stomps Revan too

Why would it be referring to ships and droids if it posited the idea that Malak's metal jaw could be a reason for his power increase? His jaw doesn't create ships, last time I checked.

It seems to be talking about personal power. Or perhaps Malak's jaw is too simple an explanation for his political influence?

Originally posted by ILS
Why would it be referring to ships and droids if it posited the idea that Malak's metal jaw could be a reason for his power increase? His jaw doesn't create ships, last time I checked.
?

And the last time i checked Malak's cybernetic jaw didn't do anything to enhance his regular force powers....

Originally posted by Nephthys
AP's interpretation has some merit imo.

That rests on the idea that we have any valid comparison between Traya and the Ancient Sith, which we kind of don't since Avellone's vision never came to pass.

I meant the idea that the quote about Malak having greater powers than Kun could be referring to techniques instead of direct power. ILS himself made the same argument for Krayt and Muur and I don't see whats different here.

Originally posted by JMANGO
And the last time i checked Malak's cybernetic jaw didn't do anything to enhance his regular force powers.... Vader's suit was partially enhanced by Sith alchemy, as were Revan's robes and mask, so it's not out of the question Malak's jaw got the same treatment.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I meant the idea that the quote about Malak having greater powers than Kun could be referring to techniques instead of direct power. ILS himself made the same argument for Krayt and Muur and I don't see whats different here. What's different is you were unwilling to accept such arguments until now; it seems your distaste for Malak outranks your distaste for Krayt?

Originally posted by ILS
Vader's suit was partially enhanced by Sith alchemy, as were Revan's robes and mask,

Once again, Neither of which enhanced their personal force powers rather than the material itself....

Oh not forgetting of course that Vader's cybernetics were the reason his personal force power was severely weakened. Lumiya holds that notion too. So the more trivial powers the star forge grants him being the "powers" referred to in the quote is a definite possibility.

This goes hand in hand with the fact that Spirit Kun still shits on all of SF Malak's conventional feats.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Once again, Neither of which enhanced their personal force powers rather than the material itself.... Originally posted by JMANGO
Oh not forgetting of course that Vader's cybernetics were the reason his personal force power was severely weakened. Lumiya holds that notion too. So the more trivial powers the star forge grants him being the "powers" referred to in the quote is a definite possibility.

This goes hand in hand with the fact that Spirit Kun still shits on all of SF Malak's conventional feats. Not sure what you mean. The reason for Vader's weakened Force power wasn't the cybernetics; that would be his severed limbs. The cybernetics were the reason he could walk.

And yeah, considering that Force-enhanced objects, such as those made by Sith alchemists, are considered as being "Force sensitive" in their own right and can grant Force powers to non-Force users, then they absolutely enhance the powers of the wearer.

Which, you know, readily explains why Malak personally drawing from the Star Forge, the much greater whole of what paltry star maps make up (which blew the mind of Muur and co.), which can power and create an infinite army of starships and war droids, would be more powerful than Kun, who merely had an amulet at his disposal. You could just accept the unfair advantage for what it is rather than get torn up over it.

Originally posted by ILS
Not sure what you mean. The reason for Vader's weakened Force power wasn't the cybernetics; that would be his severed limbs. The cybernetics were the reason he could walk.

That makes sense. Conceded.



There are plenty of objects that grant the user additional "powers". For example, the force enhanced object Muur wears around his neck allowed him to create and spread the plague of the rakghul at his personal whim. The Sith amulet of Lord Rin Shuuir could be used to heal wounds and Ragnos' sceptre could be used to reanimate the dead. So there's still reason to believe the text is referring to "techniques" here, hence the plurality of the word. And the star forge grants the user many non conventional abilties that fit the bill.



Which means nothing in the grand scheme of things. All that means is that he had a better weapon than them. It's not a reliable proxy to compare his power to theirs even when he's being amplified by it.




The implication here is that when Malak taps into the Star Forge he's drawing from all it's power at once, rather than it being either a passive amplification and just a small part of it's power being funnelled though him. In fact, the only time he ever actively draws energy from anywhere is when he uses the Jedi captives as food. More imporanly this line of reasoning could be used to used to put him above anyone who doesn't use a similar source of power to amp their abilties. That cleary isn't the case seen as Revan, who merely had himself at his disposal, kicked the shit out of him. Kun likewise would do the same due to a vast disparity in their personal power.



There is no evidence that the star forge amps his personal force power beyond Kun's. There is no evidence that the "amp" Malak gets from the star forge gives him a similar level of power relative to it's ship creating function. Naga Shadows ship triggers supernova's, yet it never gave one of it's pilots, the ability to replicate that level of power into a different force expression. And once again, the conventional powers Malak displayed while on the star forge, still come up hilariously short of Kun's which has me unconvinced.

Originally posted by JMANGO

There are plenty of objects that grant the user additional "powers". For example, the force enhanced object Muur wears around his neck allowed him to create and spread the plague of the rakghul at his personal whim. The Sith amulet of Lord Rin Shuuir could be used to heal wounds and Ragnos' sceptre could be used to reanimate the dead. So there's still reason to believe the text is referring to "techniques" here, hence the plurality of the word. And the star forge grants the user many non conventional abilties that fit the bill. Which doesn't make sense in this case, because visibly, Malak isn't using any new powers. Listing specialised pieces of equipment built for these individual Sith is hardly an apt comparison; while it is self-evident that they offer esoteric powers, they are in no way related to a star-powered energy source used by the ancient Rakatans.

However, it is noted that Malak accomplished the greater challenge of "controlling" the "power" of the Forge, "trapping into" it's "dark energy."
It seems self-evident to me that Malak, being an incredibly powerful Sith, the first to be able to control the Star Forge out of the many who perished attempting to master it, became more powerful, not militarily or politically, but with his personal power while tapping into the energies of this star-fueled engine of power. Hence the quote.

No, considering the Forge is powered by a star, he would need only draw on a small amount of it to be in excess of Kun's powers.

False, as per the above quotes. He does draw power from the Forge, and was the first successful in doing so.
No... I'm just explaining to you why the quote says what it says, since you seem to find it hard to believe/understand.

While "the Force flowed through Revan like no student" the Jedi had ever seen, including Kun, which would explain why Revan is as powerful as he is, the same can't be said for Kun himself, which is probably why he's below Malak in this case.

Aside from the quote stating as much.

Will respond to the star forge conundrum at some point tomorrow. But this has to be explained first :



Which presumably comes from this quote.



Where is the proof that Vrook Lmar and his associates ever saw Exar Kun ?

The Star Forge doesn't need to beget Malak more power than Kun, as that doesn't factor in with the full quote anyway. Nor do we need to ignore the fact that Exar Kun himself was a dark side nexus like Sidious, one of the strongest Luke had ever had to face, putting him above Byss which gave the Emperor such a powerful amp that his Force powers were more like an after-thought than an actual exercise.

Which all, of course, explains why Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd were 'great powers' on a galactic scale. The former of whom was felt through the Force by Jedi across the galaxy, prior to immediate power growth, as well as three more excessive growths in power.

You can't use the Star Forge scaling off of Star Maps and then amulets to argue that Malak is naturally more powerful. Not when Karness Muur is entire magnitudes less powerful than Exar Kun.

That's still not even predicated on the fact that Kun is canonically on the same level of power as Sidious is, by any and all sources, whereas Malak is clearly not. He's not even holistically portrayed as being as powerful as Kun in the very game he's the antagonist of.

People have all of this backwards, that interpretation of this quote is the outlier in an established order. Nor is the quote even succinct in what it conveys:



The quote has already established that Malak's power is 'devastating'. It'd be quite redundant to go back to his power. Luckily, the quote in reference refers to 'powers', plural. There are many interpretations here. One could even argue that it refers to physical prowess and durability. Especially given how it references cybernetic enhancements of his body. Point being, it's not even remotely as definitive as others would like it to be.

Originally posted by JMANGO
Will respond to the star forge conundrum at some point tomorrow. But this has to be explained first :



Which presumably comes from this quote.



Where is the proof that Vrook Lmar and his associates ever saw Exar Kun ?

There is none, the Jedi Council on Dantooine didn't even exist until Vodo; Kun's master and the Watchman of Dantooine, died.

Originally posted by AncientPower
There is none, the Jedi Council on Dantooine didn't even exist until Vodo; Kun's master and the Watchman of Dantooine, died.

Yep.

Vrook lamar and his associates were never around to oversee the training of exar Kun, so he can't be included in the quote.

As a matter of fact, the entire Jedi order overwent a massive reorganisation, designed specifically to prevent the Kun war from happening again.

@AP

I think it's pretty clear WotC had the intent to make Star Forge Malak to be greater than Exar Kun, elsewise they'd have been more careful with the words. You have merit, though, when you state "far greater powers" could be referring, even in great part, to the tangibles offered by the Star Forge, rather than power, solely. Especially considering the open and undefined character of the quote.

If we're going off of intent:

Avellone: Ancient Sith Lords >> MV!Traya > SF!Malak
(Kun is more powerful than all of the Ancient Sith Lords)

Veitch: Exar Kun ~ Sidious >>> SF!Malak

There are many interpretations of that quote and immediately interpreting it in a way specifically designed to claim that Malak is factually >> Kun, is egregious at best.

I'm saying intent that was actually writen on licensed material.

You can't assume intent in something that can be interpreted in multiple different ways.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If we're going off of intent:

Avellone: Ancient Sith Lords >> MV!Traya > SF!Malak

Ah, so that's what Avellone was implying when he said Revan could take on Traya and the Exile at the same time, even when Revan had a gruelling battle with Malak.

Nah, we don't need Avellone to state Traya > Malak when the sources of power at their disposal is clearly in favor of Traya. Worse yet for your claim is that Avellone:

1.Said Darth Revan would win due to how he fights and not by how much power he brings to the table.

2.Clarified something already stated in the actual source material. The differences are enormous.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nah, we don't need Avellone to state Traya > Malak when the sources of power at their disposal is clearly in favor of Traya. Worse yet for your claim is that Avellone:

1.Said Darth Revan would win due to how he fights and not by how much power he brings to the table.

2.Clarified something already stated in the actual source material. The differences are enormous.



You can stop telling lies at any moment. No source material has put Kraya even remotely close to Malak, or the Trayus Academy over the freaking Star Forge, either.

You can learn to read at any moment, he clearly references him being a brilliant strategist and the mental states of his opponents. You're also ignoring the fact that he completely ignores everything that isn't in KotOR 2. So this is literally just his pure hype version of Revan, who never even appears in the game beyond a vision of him in Ludo Kressh's temple.

Source material clearly states that Revan kept the secrets and power of Malachor V away from Malak, and that Revan valued Malachor's powers of corruption and dark side energy. We also have direct comparisons, which don't end well for the station.

We don't need to drag the Traya v Malak debate into another unrelated thread.

Mace wins given his capacity to compete with a factually far superior Sith Lord.

You mean the height of his greatest performance being incapable of tanking Sheev's continuous Force Lightning? Oh and, do tell me how Sheev is far superior to Exar Kun. In the end, the sources claiming he's already GOAT Sith by TPM don't even look to be Legends but Canon. After that we're left with ROTS quotes, which whilst true, do nothing to factually state a vast disparity. I'm not claiming Kun is as powerful as Sheev, but he's obviously in his weight class.

The gulf between Sidious and Kun has been widened because other Sith, namely Malak, Revan, Vitiate and Plagueis, have now been inserted in between them.

Malak's quote is hilariously ambiguous without authorial intent, and with it you're opening a pandora's box to very much the demise of your own argument.

Plagueis' quote is a dead horse, and ironically that only proves my point about the supposed factuality of the quote in question.

Vitiate's debatable, because if you do take him as a Sith through and through, Kun isn't factually inferior until 350 years after he's dead. Though again, given statements in SOR, he's still very much up there with him as a spirit.

So, not really, no.

Authorial intent which is not implied in the material holds no weight against a direct author clarification.

Nothing we're talking about is of the former sort. Both Veitch and Avellone are merely confirming the accuracy of content in published materials.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nothing we're talking about is of the former sort. Both Veitch and Avellone are merely confirming the accuracy of content in published materials.

Avellone was comparing characters within his story to characters created outside of his story,(which are not under his purview) with no review from LFL. Veitch's statement is empirically contradicted by TPM Sidious being the most powerful sith lord.

Avellone confirmed that as Kreia stated in dialogue, all of Malak, Nihilus and every other fvcker of the era, besides arguably Revan, are sub-ancient Sith. That's entirely within his purview.

You do know the TPM Sheev = GOAT Sith quotes are Canon, right?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Avellone confirmed that as Kreia stated in dialogue, all of Malak, Nihilus and every other fvcker of the era, besides arguably Revan, are sub-ancient Sith. That's entirely within his purview.

You do know the TPM Sheev = GOAT Sith quotes are Canon, right?

Sure, but such a statement is not under Kreia's authority to make as she never sensed the power of SF Malak nor the power of Exar Kun. Her statement and Avellone's codification has far less merit than a quote directly edited and approved by Leland Chee.

Which is irrelevant when Avellone confirms she is right in this regard. You realise that Chee and Lucas both 'reviewed and edited' the Plagueis novel and yet even that was stated by Chee to be subject to subjective claims that weren't factual, right? That's factually a far more credible source than anything in a web supplement.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Which is irrelevant when Avellone confirms she is right in this regard. You realise that Chee and Lucas both 'reviewed and edited' the Plagueis novel and yet even that was stated by Chee to be subject to subjective claims that weren't factual, right? That's factually a far more credible source than anything in a web supplement.

1. Avellone does not have the authority to confirm her statement, as he does not have jurisdiction over Exar nor Malak.

2. Chee nor Lucas reviewed and edited the Plagueis novel. Lucas appointed Howard Roffman as editor.

3. A blurb is created by the publishers as promotional material and is not under the purview of LFL editors.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
1. Avellone does not have the authority to confirm her statement, as he does not have jurisdiction over Exar nor Malak.

2. Chee nor Lucas reviewed and edited the Plagueis novel. Lucas appointed Howard Roffman as editor.

3. A blurb is created by the publishers as promotional material and is not under the purview of LFL editors.

1.He has jurisdiction over his own characters, and their power levels, among the mythos. This is common sense.

2.You're massively missing the point.

3.Funny, because Beni and Az and the likes have argued otherwise for years. Take it up with them.

Originally posted by AncientPower
1.He has jurisdiction over his own characters, and their power levels, among the mythos. This is common sense.

2.You're massively missing the point.

3.Funny, because Beni and Az and the likes have argued otherwise for years. Take it up with them.

1. He has limited purview over all of his characters, as he is only an employee for Lucas Licensing and may not be cognizant of all of their plans. Also, he was not one of the creators of Kun nor Malak, so he has very little authority it such broadband statements.

2. The point only works if blurbs are approved by the editing staff, which I doubt.

3. That is their problem.

Originally posted by ILS
What's different is you were unwilling to accept such arguments until now; it seems your distaste for Malak outranks your distaste for Krayt?

That doesn't explain your own change in willingness to accept arguments. Whether or not I believe it, you do. It'd be hypocritical of you to dismiss it in this case out of hand just because it doesn't align with your agenda.

I didn't buy the previous case because it wasn't convincing and didn't match the context. You were obviously just trying to duck out of accepting something you didn't like. Here it has more merit and aligns better with Kun's holistic portrayal. AP raised another good point about Kun's portrayal in the JA era. Not that I actually said I buy this idea, just that it does have merit and is an extremely viable interpretation.

Accolades are bad. Don't do accolades, kids.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That doesn't explain your own change in willingness to accept arguments. Whether or not I believe it, you do. It'd be hypocritical of you to dismiss it in this case out of hand just because it doesn't align with your agenda. Riiiight. I'm a hypocrite for pointing that Muur only "outshone" Krayt insofar as he had healing powers he coveted, could raise armies of rakghouls and cheapshotted him, and also for making the simple observation that Malak didn't acquire "new powers" from the Star Forge, and that in the context of the quote, it wasn't talking about anything other than Malak's own power.

It's not like we should consider context or anything, let's just take all of this at face value like you (depending on when we like the quote).

The Star Forge feeds on the dark side and heals you via trapped Force users' essences. That's all. And it also creates battle machines.

Originally posted by AncientPower and Freedon Nadd
I fap to Exar > TPM Sidious.

I like how the quote isn't nearly that definitive, so we revert to author clarififation. But we then nitpick what is usable and what isn't.

Originally posted by ILS
While "the Force flowed through Revan like no student" the Jedi had ever seen, including Kun

First off all, this is not a thing. Just had to check, and AP isn't lying (i know?). The Jedi Masters claiming Revan the finest student they've seen weren't around during Kun's traineeship. Vrook Lmar and his deliberating council, oversaw the training on Dantooine after Vodo Bass died. For this accolade to include Exar Kun, Vodo needs to be the one making it. But much like this premise, he was dead. Moving on.



Irrelevant in more ways than one. Visibly speaking, Malak isn't using any old powers greater than Exar Kun. If the accolade is merely an analysis of their conventional abilties it can be dismissed for it's (vast) un-objecitvity. A misinterpretation so off the mark, it failed to account for the wide disparity in feats from Kun's pre-prime and weaker incarnations and Malak's strongest.



Irrelevant. If necklaces, swords, amulets and other artefacts can afford the wielder esoteric powers, such as Muur's Talisman and Ragnos' sceptre, than the quote in question, which alludes to some possible object being the source of the far greater powers, can certainly refer to esoteric techniques. A number of which is granted to users of the Star Forge.



So.... Malak has stronger will power than unknown sith of an unknown number that tried to control the Forge. Impressive, perhaps you're going to tell me how Dath Krayt is the strongest sith lord because he scales of his sith troopers. Oh wait.



You would think that wouldn't you. That because the Star Forge is powered by a star the entire process trickles down to this - Malak having power relative to a meaningful fraction of the Sun. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

Exhibit A)

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3825497-7582433901-dkQiP.gif

The bodies struck by lighting here aren't disintegrated, let alone burned to a crisp or desecrated in a grotesque manner. All three of which would happen even at a good half million miles distance from a star. Pretty pathetic considering 1) he's being empowered by the forge here 2) lighting deflection is often only thwarted by tutaminis and not lesser force defences 3) The Jedi in question are random no names 4) No named Jedi are usually memetic cannon fodder - Jango Fett kills 8 with his bare hands 5) The Jedi would be spending an inordinate amount of their will-power just contending with the corruptive nature of the Forge 6) much less of that will power can be channelled to defend against a sith lord. 7) they might not have even died. This is a sub Alema Keto showing. Much less an Exar Kunt hallmark, Who at this point could simply wave a hand in Malak's direction and defeat him, Star Forge or not.

Exhibit B)

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4511473-8949335928-mP6NW.gif

Against Revan, Malak reveals the Star Forge's final gimmick - the ability to draw from the energy of random Jedi. Now what is a random Jedi captive compared to the power of a blazing hot Star you might ask? And if Malak's power = a star, why is he even considering jedi captives as some sort of meaningful boon? When just a fraction of a star should put him in "excess of" the most powerful and dangerous of all sith lords including Maul and Vader. Well clearly based off this premise and the one above, the power he's tapping into, does not give him a (relevant) fraction of a Sun's energy. The evidence in your previous post likely infers the reason to this.



While Malak is capable of harnessing some degree of the Star Forge's energy, it stands to reason that much like a spectrum, there's is a limit to the amount of energy he can bathe himself in without being "devoured" too, and while he's better at resisting this effect than the other random sith that came before him, his control has a limitation. It's a reasonable assertion that explains why - His lightning powers don't burn victims with the intensity of the sun 2 - He's chooses to draw anergy from Jedi captives 3) why Revan can defeat him in the first instance.



Which can be in reference to power(s) alternative to the conventional ones displayed. But even still, it's just claim made without evidence or a reliable analysis of the events themselves. And as such, they can be dismissed without evidence. But in this case a basic comparison of Kun vs Malak in the showings department favours the former immensely. Thematically speaking, it took the entire Jedi order using the most devastating attack possible to (not completely) kill Kun. It only took one exceptionally powerful Jedi to kill Malak. Personally i think that Kun would have an easier time of it and there's no question he wins against Mace Windu.

Nice post JMANGO

@JMANGO try to cheer up a bit.
If all you wanted to say was "I'm a feats only guy" then you might have tried opening with that, instead of wasting everyone's time.
They can if they are designed that way; therefore it's self evident if they provide new powers. You're yet to prove that the Star Forge grants Malak new powers. More importantly, these powers are "far greater" than Kun or Nadd, so I'll leave you to meditate on what that might entail.
My, my. Deliberately missing the point in order to take a cheap dig. Seems beneath your talents, Zig. I wasn't arguing Malak's impressiveness, I was explaining to you that the significance of the Star Forge, according to the quotes posted earlier discussing it, is the power increase Malak draws from it, rather than your unsubstantiated claim that it simply grants Malak "esoteric powers."
No, it just means that Malak doesn't need to "draw from all it's power at once" in order to be granted power superior to Kun.

As for your essay on how, *gasp*, Malak isn't producing a sun's worth of power, that doesn't actually disprove the quote. You can certainly argue Kun has better feats, something I'd agree with, but perhaps your posts would drip less of desperation if you'd stop misrepresenting my positions every 2 seconds. Just a thought.

Through the Star Forge, couldn't Malak produce and endless number of warships and droids all drenched and enhanced by the dark side? That does come under the umbrella of "far greater powers than Kun or Nadd" doesn't it? Just curious.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Through the Star Forge, couldn't Malak produce and endless number of warships and droids all drenched and enhanced by the dark side? That does come under the umbrella of "far greater powers than Kun or Nadd" doesn't it? Just curious.


The correct interpretation of the quote has been confirmed by the author. The attempts to skirt around its meaning are hilarious.

Lmao, I have neither need nor interest to skirt around it since, not only does it greatly benefit Mace, but I have advocated against Kun for quite some time and have always favored Revan over him.

Where has the author confirmed it? Regardless, I am going by the statement in the quote itself where it refers to "powers" far greater than Kun or Nadd and clearly the production of an endless armada qualifies. Unless there is something I missed in which case I phrased the entire thing as a question and mentioned that I was curious. Usually that calls for someone to clarify, not attack.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Lmao, I have neither need nor interest to skirt around it since, not only does it greatly benefit Mace, but I have advocated against Kun for quite some time and have always favored Revan over him.

Where has the author confirmed it? Regardless, I am going by the statement in the quote itself where it refers to "powers" far greater than Kun or Nadd and clearly the production of an endless armada qualifies. Unless there is something I missed in which case I phrased the entire thing as a question and mentioned that I was curious. Usually that calls for someone to clarify, not attack.

LordoftheLight on Kun vs. Revan force only:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w1ljLa9N_kc/WrCVlP0Vq_I/AAAAAAAAFGY/sbLxeMOFwmgN1QH638d3SCdYVZUSuZZ_QCL0BGAYYCw/h103/2018-03-19.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Fc0MPHS3_gs/WrCXUSlNoaI/AAAAAAAAFGk/1QYspslcLRUeNKZxEKynbG_4_ROTk_-_wCL0BGAYYCw/h85/2018-03-19.png

Here is the author quasi-confirming what is plainly evident to the impartial viewer.

http://i.imgur.com/X1ygJzZ.jpg

This statement, of course, is in reference to the quote. With no prompting from the questioner, Herndon interprets the quote as a direct comparison of power levels.

Dude, that was nearly a year ago, and my hobby as a "proper" debater( with at least some knowledge of the SW universe) itself was around 30% at the time. I haven't been around like Nova or ILS have for many years. When I say "always", I mean, "for a noticeably long time and I don't recall at the moment when I thought otherwise".

Since you are looking at outdated timelines, you might as well have looked the part where I declared Revan above Krayt. Something I am definitely sure I wouldn't do now(for quite some time).

It does sound like he is giving his own opinion on the fight, and not necessarily saying that "Malak is far more powerful than Kun", but fair enough.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Dude, that was nearly a year ago, and my hobby as a "proper" debater( with at least some knowledge of the SW universe) itself was around 40% at the time. I haven't been around like Nova or ILS have for many years. When I say "always", I mean, "for a noticeably long time and I don't recall at the moment when I thought otherwise".

Since you are looking at outdated timelines, you might as well have looked the part where I declared Revan above Krayt.

It does sound like he is giving his own opinion on the fight, and not necessarily saying that "Malak is far more powerful than Kun", but fair enough.

1. You claimed you always held that position, I empirically proved that to be false. You may insert some dummy modifier which was never stated nor implied, but it does not change the meaning of your words. And eight months is not a long time.

2. Herndon's opinion on the bout is irrelevant. What is important is that he interpreted the quote as a direct comparison of powers.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I like how the quote isn't nearly that definitive, so we revert to author clarififation. But we then nitpick what is usable and what isn't.

The quote is clearly definitive to any impartial viewer; the intent just reinforces the obvious. I think it is pretty essential to know what is usable and what isn't.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
1. You claimed you always held that position, I empirically proved that to be false. You may insert some dummy modifier which was never stated nor implied, but it does not change the meaning of your words. And eight months is not a long time.

2. Herndon's opinion on the bout is irrelevant. What is important is that he interpreted the quote as a direct comparison of powers.

1. What I said:"I have always believed Revan to be superior to Kun"

What I meant:"I have held that opinion when I came here( in SW debating) and for a long time now. If at some point in the middle, my opinion changed( temporarily), it is neither noteworthy, nor do I even remember it".

Forgive me for not being "exact" with this statement, but that is what I meant. And 8 months is a long time for someone like me, certainly long enough for something like this to be rendered irrelevant.

2. Yeah, that is one, but pretty fair way to look at it, which is why I accepted it. I could argue it, but I have no interest in doing so.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
1. What I said:"I have always believed Revan to be superior to Kun"

What I meant:"I have held that opinion when I came here( in SW debating) and for a long time now. If at some point in the middle, my opinion changed( temporarily), it is neither noteworthy, nor do I even remember it".

Forgive me for not being "exact" with this statement, but that is what I meant. And 8 months is a long time for someone like me, certainly long enough for something like this to be rendered irrelevant.

2. Yeah, that is one, but pretty fair way to look at it, which is why I accepted it. I could argue it, but I have no interest in doing so.

1. I was simply correcting an error in verbiage. Your ventures into Star Wars debating don't matter to me.

2. Cheers.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
1. You claimed you always held that position, I empirically proved that to be false. You may insert some dummy modifier which was never stated nor implied, but it does not change the meaning of your words. And eight months is not a long time.

2. Herndon's opinion on the bout is irrelevant. What is important is that he interpreted the quote as a direct comparison of powers. Kek, "you must be bound by something you said 243 days ago, so says Darthskywalker!!!" stfu trigga.
Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Through the Star Forge, couldn't Malak produce and endless number of warships and droids all drenched and enhanced by the dark side? That does come under the umbrella of "far greater powers than Kun or Nadd" doesn't it? Just curious. Consider the context:
It can only be referring to personal power, if it was referring to anything related to military power there would be no mention of his metal jaw.

The author has outright clarified the quote means Malak > Kun in personal power, although there's no need given its blatant within the quote itself.

Originally posted by ILS
Kek, "you must be bound by something you said 243 days ago, so says Darthskywalker!!!" stfu trigga.
Consider the context:
It can only be referring to personal power, if it was referring to anything related to military power there would be no mention of his metal jaw.

Right.

Trigga said he always held that position and I never said he had to bound to it.

If author clarification is being reverted to, then Kun is confirmed to be Sheev tier, making it impossible for him to be far less powerful than Malak.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If author clarification is being reverted to, then Kun is confirmed to be Sheev tier, making it impossible for him to be far less powerful than Malak.

Stop conflating antiquated contradicted authorial intent with authorial clarification. They are two very different things. In one case the author is asserting his view on a character whereas in the other the author is clarifying what is ambiguous(not that the quote is).

Veitch is confirming a quote from Champions of the Force, which is also echoed in I, Jedi. It's got nothing to do with authorial intent, lmfao.

Speaking of which:

https://m.imgur.com/am6Mitv

https://m.imgur.com/X1ygJzZ

Where exactly does he confirm anything here? All he says was that the content went through LFL and then says that his opinion is still Malak > Exar Kun. Nothing about the actual quote was clarified at all.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Veitch is confirming a quote from Champions of the Force, which is also echoed in I, Jedi. It's got nothing to do with authorial intent, lmfao.

Speaking of which:

https://m.imgur.com/am6Mitv

https://m.imgur.com/X1ygJzZ

Where exactly does he confirm anything here? All he says was that the content went through LFL and then says that his opinion is still Malak > Exar Kun. Nothing about the actual quote was clarified at all.

AP your attempts to squirm are funny but mind-numbing.

1 Veitch's statement was not referencing any of the quotes in I, Jedi and Champions of the Force. He was simply stating his opinion, nor does Veitch have the ability to corroborate any of those quotes as he did not write any of the books in question. Additionally, Kun's parity with DE Sidious has been contradicted by innumerable sources.

2. As I mentioned previously, without prompting from the questioner, Herndon interprets the quote as a direct comparison of power levels.

Your attempts to misread text are mind-numbing.

1.I've had multiple exchanges with the man, and he's confirmed that both he and KJA were involved in all aspects of Exar Kun's storyline. He even differed to KJA in a question regarding TOTJ.

Oh and no, it isn't contradicted at all, Sheev's TPM quote is from a Psuedo-Canon source, not Legends. So then we return to the ROTS quotes. But the problem therein is how much more powerful is DE Sheev compared to ROTS Sheev? Can you define that in anyway that so directly retcons Kun being on his level?

Because here's the thing. The quote is pre-Prequel trilogy. So obviously it isn't beholden to that. But neither does a full retcon need to be employed here. Leland Chee has made it clear across the years that such a move is the last resort not the first step. So we have to revert the quote to meaning that Kun is a threat in the same weight-class as Sidious in general. Something TCSWE does nicely. Which still means Malak is fvcked here either way.

2.He doesn't say that anywhere, all he confirms is:

-LFL reviewed the quote, making it Legends.
-He still thinks Exar Kun vs. Darth Malak goes to Malak.

What he doesn't say is:

-Darth Malak is far more powerful than Exar Kun.

What is still quite debatable:

- The context of cybernetic enhancements could mean that the quote refers to physical prowess.
- The context could quite easily refer to powers that mastery over the Star Forge could have given him. (E.g; Virtual immortality, 'GIGA' drain.)

I've yet to see anything more than shoulder barging on the part of others here to force the quote to 'clearly' mean something when it can mean many things.

https://media.giphy.com/media/mmYy42RNrgA0w/giphy.gif

I'm glad to see your argument has gone as far as it could get.

1. Involvement in a series is a far cry from communication with the editor and physically putting your pen to paper. Not that Veitch's intent even matters as more recent sources contradict it.

2. AP think about this logically. Herndon was shown the quote. After seeing the quote, he confirmed LFL reviewed it. Rather than expounding upon its true intent, he explains his view on the power relationship between the two characters clearly referencing the statement. If the accolade was merely referring to "physical prowess," why would Herndon even mention such a comparison? It would be a complete non-sequitur to the topic at hand and create further confusion. It seems as if you are desperately trying to dodge the quote despite all evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm glad to see your argument has gone as far as it could get.

Not really interested in debating the topic -- especially since DS0 is checking you into the Smackdown hotel himself.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Through the Star Forge, couldn't Malak produce and endless number of warships and droids all drenched and enhanced by the dark side? That does come under the umbrella of "far greater powers than Kun or Nadd" doesn't it? Just curious.

This.

Originally posted by ILS
They can if they are designed that way.

Exactly. And in the realm of sorcerous apparitions, hyperspace travel and age old prophecies, the great power(s) granted by the Star Forge could indeed be explained by a personal sith artefact. For Murr and Ragnos, those come in the form of a necklace and a sword. For Malak, it could be what's hidden behind his vocal mask.



It does give him new powers. The first is the ability to manifest ships with the aid of a star. The second is the paraphernalia imprisoning Jedi, who are there to consume at his whim. A possible third is the ship's defences - cannons turbo lasers and stuff. All these have the possibility of being conflated with personal sith artefacts that grant magic powers or produce concussive blasts (akin to lasers/canons) but are explained by the Star Forge. They are supposedly far greater than Kun or Nadd. But it's not up to me to make sense of an accolade that might be objectivity wrong. However, I'd definitely count the ability to mass produce an army in that number. The offensive and defensive powers Malak receives as result of an amp however, come up hilariously short.



A given thanks to the lack of material to work with here.



The two quotes in question do not tell me that the user's power increase is the primary function of the Star Forge. It at best tells me that it's one of the functions granted by the station. All you've done is find a bit of text that describes tapping into the Star Forges power and then claim that it's the stations main faculty. The problem here is that I can use a quote relating to a few of it's other utilities and do the same.



Darth Revan percived the ship factory as the Star Forges primary function. But Malak chastises Revan's perspective, claiming to understand it's true power. Malak then reveals the trump card of the Star Forge : that it allows him to siphon the energy of Jedi.... not the Forge itself, not the a fraction of the sun, but the energy of random jedi. And it's not even as if he drains them all at once. In the game, he breaks off from the contest to drain the Jedi captives one at a time.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-21-2018/8nuD6h.gif

This is Malak's supposed Ace in the hole... this is something Kun can do as disembodied spirit on Yavin, and does do to feed his power. The difference being that Kun's victims actually had the opportunity to defend themselves.



Your original premise was that he can draw from the power of the Sun, therefore a meaningful fraction of it should be enough to put him above Exar. Well it wasn't enough to put him above Revan, he's not displaying powers that are relative to even an infinitesimal fraction of a star's energy and his trump card is to siphon the power of random jedi, one at a time. If he really could manifest a meaningful fraction of the Sun's power, none of the above would be true. Thankfully, you've provided me with a quote that it explains why Malak is still pathetic while on the Star Forge. Unlike some poultry Nexus, exposure to the forge corrupts and devours those who tap into it's power. It stands to reason that while Malak can resist this affect better than the random sith before him, there is still a limit to how much energy he can draw without being devoured himself. In fact, Darth Malak planned to explore deeper into the Star Forge after disposing of Revan. Indicating he hadn't mastered the device prior to his death.

He has better feats when comparing his weakest incarnations to Malak's strongest. Thematically speaking, the elder council thought Revan alone would be enough to stop Malak on his turf, yet the entire militaristic portion of the Jedi Order was to depose of Kun. What Malak has in his favour, is a quote that can or can not be interpreted to reference his personal power. The quote can be dismissed in more ways than one, such as exploring what else the quote might be referring to. Aside from that, one can expose the subjective nature of the quote itself. A couple of members here were simply jizzing themselves at the prospect of Leeland Chee having glossed over the vaunted Malak quote (darthant, skillz and DarthSkywanker0 - i'm looking at you) In fact, it was Ant's big trump card in his debate with Elm. But what they don't understand is the ethos behind LFL's fact checking. Chee himself has alluded to a very flexible perspective when it comes to accolades. Especially those regarding power levels:



Now based of this interaction one of two things can be true. Either Leland doesn't check SW sources meticulously enough. Or he isn't bothered by such accolades, because they have license to subjectivity themselves. Which goes hand in hand with the "foggy window" paradigm that states this - the only facts are in the six movies. It is really no wonder, that when prompted, he said the Darth Plagueis novel blurb could be subjective when it claimed the character was the most powerful sith in history. If you asked him, I expect he'll say the same for the Malak blog, especially as it's also just promotional material. Anyway there's more than enough evidence to refute the idea that SF Malak is >>> Kun. To the contrary, Malak is pathetic in comparison... the personal opinion of Cory Herndon aside.

I am just wondering how much people are still willing to assume that the Star Forge is a dark side nexus.

Looks like most people think Mace wins. Anyone have a decent argument for Kun?

He raped Luke and his Jedi Praexum as a weakling ghost.

context is important

Yeah. He was a weakling spirit who needed to use the power of the dark side nexus on Yavin 4 to even touch a fraction of his power.

kek

This Kun vs Luke thing has been thoroughly debunked a good deal of times so far.
Now I'll just wait for AP to come screeching in yelling "NUH-UH!" because she can't accept ground realities. :3

By what?

The general consensus at that time was spirit Kun stronger than flesh Kun and not using dark side nexuses and using Kyp's Force reserves.

Originally posted by MythLord
kek

This Kun vs Luke thing has been thoroughly debunked a good deal of times so far.
Now I'll just wait for AP to come screeching in yelling "NUH-UH!" because she can't accept ground realities. :3

Welcome to 2018 where all of that is completely fvckin' irrelevant.

I mean, when Exar Kun is considered sub-Malak...

I see Mace tanking Kun's sorcery blasts and decapitating him like he did Jango.

I don't. Never the less, Mace not being quick enough to slice an unarmed dooku before Jango could shoot him does put him below Jedi Ulic. It also means he can't make his body blaster resistant without a hand gesture, like Ulic can. He also got cornered by.. what a couple od thousand droids in that episode, which means the scope of his environmental powers isn't top tier like Exar's is.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/023/180/notsurprisedkirk.jpg

Originally posted by MythLord
I mean, when Exar Kun is considered sub-Malak...

Considered by those who want to wank Revan just a little bit more. Gotta squeeze that last drop of seminal fluid out of his flaccid penis before his character finally achieves irrelevancy.

But no, there are objective quotes placing Exar above Luke, even as a spirit. Moreover, there are similar quotes objectively placing Kun up there with Sheev. Now unless you're willing to let one interpretation of one, as of yet unclarified, statement in a web supplement place Malak as far more powerful than Sheev, I believe my job is done.

Exar Kun>Sheev.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Considered by those who want to wank Revan just a little bit more. Gotta squeeze that last drop of seminal fluid out of his flaccid penis before his character finally achieves irrelevancy.

But no, there are objective quotes placing Exar above Luke, even as a spirit. Moreover, there are similar quotes objectively placing Kun up there with Sheev. Now unless you're willing to let one interpretation of one, as of yet unclarified, statement in a web supplement place Malak as far more powerful than Sheev, I believe my job is done. Post the quotes, tbh

Post them.

About as objective as it can get.

Then there's I, Jedi:







Not only does Corran Horn know how powerful Luke is, in fact he makes it clearer than ever that he's more powerful than he'd ever been. (Something Jedi Academy has echoed.) Corran also confirms that he couldn't imagine anyone being more powerful than Luke. Going as far as to attempt to rationalise that Kun blocking the Force senses of every single Jedi in the academy, including Luke's, as something he just had an affinity for. As opposed to the alternative. Yet he then accepts that they were just more powerful than him. Leading him to the conclusion:



It's all very clear, and even if you factor in later quotes, Kun's standing here is only subject to scaling adapted from later sources, not direct retcons. As per Chee, a retcon is the last resort when something cannot be resolved. This can be. Kun is in general a Sheev tier heavyweight.

So no proof, then? Very good.

A disappointment as usual AP.

Cognitive dissonance much.

Who cares about neophyte Horn's opinions?

Lmao.

There's literally an entire trilogy supporting his claims.

If we're going by accolades, that one accolade by Lucas that says "you need to be Windu or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" before that the full quote says Windu was winning against Palpatine, but Palpatine over exaggerated his defeat to get Anakin on his side. Lucas also says in the rots commentary Windu overpowered Palps. What do you guys make of that?

Lucas' word that was not. It was Gillard's.

With I, Jedi Exar Kun>Palpatine. Well done, AP.

I, Jedi being the perspective of Corran Horn, someone who has never faced Palpatine.